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View Full Version : Week 10 v. Indy--Passing Game Break Down


infantrycak
11-15-2005, 02:07 PM
Here is my break down of the passing game for this week. Times are in 1 second increments off the game clock. Comments on OL play on positive plays are provided for judging whether additional time available if needed. If the WR or TE number is even, they are split even unless noted otherwise. Positive play has the very minimal definition of successful for one of the designed options not that it was the best call or execution.

1st QTR

10:07 3rd & 12 3 WR-2R, Wells & Morency, shotgun. Carr reads right then dumps to Morency at 10:05 for 7. OL did well except Brown about to lose contain on LDT. Positive play.

4:24 1st & 10 2 WR-L, 2 TE. 4:23 ball out to AJ at LOS who goes for 8. Positive play.

4:04 1st & 10 2 WR-L, TE-R. 5 step drop—4:01 ball out but overthrown to AJ 35 yds down field. Pass protection OK except Wade and Riley double LDT and LB comes in free on delay to hit Carr at release. Predominant fault Carr.

3:14 3rd & 4 4 WR, shotgun. Carr gets ansy and takes off right at 3:12 without major pocket breakdown. Throws the ball away at 3:09 before going out of bounds. Predominant fault Carr.

2nd QTR

10:30 2nd & 8 2 WR-(AJ mtns L to R to put both R), 2 TE. Designed roll right. Rivers doesn’t get out to block safety. 10:26 Carr throws at AJ’s feet on R sideline just prior to getting popped by safety. Wade and Riley allow LDE to split them and he is in hot pursuit as well. 50/50 Carr/Rivers.

10:25 3rd & 8 3 WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. 10:23 ball overthrown to Gaffney. Wade is abused by LDE to outside. Brown is saved from whiffing on stunting RDE by shoving him into the backside of McKinney. Predominant fault Carr.

2:55 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 3 step drop—2:54 ball out to AJ on left sideline for 1st down. Good thing play didn’t need 2 seconds because pocket is crumbling. Riley looked like he got away with a pretty flagrant bulldog. Positive play.

2:20 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 5 step drop—Carr looks right then dumps left to Wells at 2:17 for 6 yards. Pass protection good—left side held ground much better than right. Positive play.

1:05 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-L, shotgun. Carr looks left then 1:03 ball deflected by Freeney while trying to dump to Morency to the right. Riley should have stayed engaged on Freeney. Predominant fault Riley.

:30 3rd & 7 3 WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. :27 ball incomplete to Gaffney. Don’t know if poorly thrown or Gaffney not where expected due to contact resulting in offsetting flags. Pass protection very good including by Rivers who solos a guy. Non-play.

:25 3rd & 7 3WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. Carr appears to check left, then center then :22 dump to Morency right for 6. Pass protection very good including Pitts solo on Freeney. This play seems like an example of the O self limiting itself. The pass protection has been so bad they are hammering Carr to get rid of the ball which eliminates the possibility of him sitting in a good pocket and taking advantage of time to let the WR’s make something happen. As the Texans D has seen many times, if the QB gets 6 seconds, someone is coming open. Positive play.

[The Texans let the clock run out without taking a 4th down shot. That is inexcusable IMO. Let the clock roll down to 1 or 2 seconds if you want to make sure the Colts don’t get the ball and take a shot down field.]

3rd QTR

14:54 1st & 10 3 WR-2 L, TE-R. 5 step drop—checks middle then 14:52 dumps to Rivers at LOS on right side for 3. Rivers makes a good block prior to releasing. Good pass protection to release point, but RDT has just busted into the pocket past Brown clear to Carr when ball is released. Positive play.

11:38 3rd & 3 3 WR-2L, TE-R, shotgun. 11:37 ball out to AJ right sideline for 1st down. Positive play.

11:14 1st & 10 2 WR, TE-L. 7 step drop. Carr has about 2.5 to 3 seconds then pocket has disappeared—not so much any one OL getting beat as whole thing shrinking to nothing. Carr steps up and then breaks forward just shy of LOS so sack for a foot. Tough call on fault IMO—once the pass protection broke down folks were right on top of Carr to take a swipe at a ball being brought up to throw away. Net difference on the game was negligible—loss of down, within 1 foot of LOS. 50/50 fault Carr/Pass Pro.

10:34 2nd & 11 3 WR-2L, TE-R. 3 step drop—10:32 1st down slant to AJ. Carr about to be hit by LDT who is by Riley. Positive play.

8:31 3rd & 1 2 WR-L, TE-R. 8:29 TD out to Gaffney. Pass protection OK but pressure coming up the middle. Positive play.

5:10 2nd & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-L. 5 step drop—Carr looks right, middle, then dumps to Rivers at left LOS at 5:08. Wade saved by RB assistance on outside rush. Positive play.

4:24 3rd & 8 3 WR-2R, TE-R, shotgun. Carr checks right then 4:21 throws left sideline jump ball to AJ, incomplete through AJ’s hands—IMO AJ should have made the catch. Pass protection very good. Predominant fault AJ.

4:07 1st & 10 2 WR, 2 TE. 3 step drop—4:05 poorly thrown ball to Gaffney left. Predominant fault Carr.

4:04 2nd & 10 2 WR, 2 TE. 5 step drop—4:02 ball out to Gaff for 1st down on left sideline. Carr about to get hit by stunting RDT. Positive play.

2:41 2nd & 11 3 WR-2L, TE-R. 3 step drop. Riley let’s LDT thru virtually unmolested—saved from instant sack by Morency, but middle of the pocket is now a scrum pile. Carr hesitant about which side of Brown to run around, gains 3. Predominant fault Riley.

1:59 3rd & 8 3 WR-2L, TE-L. 5 step drop—check left, dump to Morency right at 1:57 for 6 yds. Pass protection good. Positive play.

4th QTR

11:24 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 5 step drop—Carr checks right then dumps left to Wells for 6 at 11:22. Freeney about to pounce on Carr after inside spin gets Pitts off balance and he falls to the ground. Positive play.

10:06 3rd & 1 3 WR-2L, TE-R (motion). 3 step drop—10:05 ball out to Armstrong for 1st down on slant. Carr about to be hit at release by blitzer. Positive play.

8:46 2nd & 7 3 WR-2L, TE-R. 3 step drop—8:44 1st down slant to Armstrong. Pass protection good. Positive play.

8:21 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 7 step drop—8:19 McKinney lets RDT thru unimpeded for sack. Predominant fault McKinney.

7:47 2nd & 14 3 WR-2L, TE-R. 5 step drop—pump fake right, throw behind Gaff at left sideline at 7:45. Riley abused and his man about to hit Carr. Predominant fault Carr.

7:42 3rd & 14 3 WR-2R, Wells & Morency, shotgun. Brown beat by Freeney who flushes Carr up the middle for 6. Predominant fault Brown.

7:10 4th & 8 3 WR-2R, Wells and Morency, shogun. Carr stays in unsteady pocket—throws incomplete (in front of) to Gaff at 7:07. Would love to see coaches tape because Gaff is asking for a flag. Predominant fault Carr.

4:30 2nd & 7 3 WR-2L, TE-R, shotgun. Freeney abuses Brown and is at Carr’s drop right along with him. This is the falling play. At the time this looked worse IMO than on review. Freeney is just about to pound Carr (Carr starts to take dive) when Brown yanks Freeney’s trailing arm to stop hit—draws a flag for a flagrant hold. Barring the hold Carr would have been pounded. Predominant fault Brown.

4:24 3rd & 15 3 WR-2 L, TE-L, shotgun. Carr checks left then dumps right to Wells at 4:22 just before getting hit by RDE Pitts whiffed on. Positive play.

31 called passing plays—16 positive plays, 7 negatives on Carr, 6 on pass protection and 1 on AJ.

eriadoc
11-15-2005, 02:46 PM
Thanks again, Inf :)

Peldon
11-15-2005, 02:51 PM
Great job as always.:)

SESupergenius
11-15-2005, 03:01 PM
Good stuff Infantry, It was pretty clear that Carr was missing his throws, but was under constant pressure. The last play on 4th down Carr clearly didn't have a sense for the game. It looked like Gaffney was going to get open but that never materialized and it looked like for a microsecond he was pondering taking off. Carr was off today, but I would just love for once for him to get into a rythm and not have so many pressure issues.

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2005, 03:34 PM
Appreciate the work as always.

I was hoping that the shot gun would cure what ails us, but we were 3-11 in shotgun formation.

MightyTExan
11-15-2005, 05:28 PM
Awesome breakdown.

Why don't we run the slant more? It seems to be successful. At least when other teams do it to us,(which is most of the time).

Texan Gal 312
11-15-2005, 05:46 PM
Always interesting reading. I wish you had the coaches tape so you could see what was going on downfield. The Carr took off for no reason might be explained by what or was not going on downfield. A couple of the "Carr faults" could be labeled as "receiver faults" as they were not open. In some of those cases Carr basically threw the ball away as his time was up.

It would be nice if you could add how many total we had blocking vs. how many total they had rushing. It will give you an idea about what is going on downfield as in how many they have covering our receivers.

Thanks for your work.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 06:02 PM
The Carr took off for no reason might be explained by what or was not going on downfield.

Could be, but I don't think so. Frankly, I think the Carr runs for no reason criticism has been overstated, at least in the last 5 games, but this one seemed pretty clear. He still had 1-2 seconds to wait to see if someone developed. Something important to remember in that regard is if he stays in the pocket, the receivers have a better chance of coming open because of the 5 yd contact rule but once he leaves the box he becomes a runner and the DB's can waylay the receivers as potential run blockers so getting open becomes tougher. JMO but that was a bad choice by Carr. Now the game tape might have shown whether his bad decision made a difference. Could have been everyone was covered and he would have thrown it away from the pocket.

Runner
11-15-2005, 06:13 PM
Looks like Riley was beaten a lot. Good thing he'll be ordained to replace Wade if Weigert is back.

It also appears the line played worse in the second half. I haven't rewatched the game yet and wasn't able to pay close attention at the time - did Freeney play the tackle position more in the second half to avoid the double and triple team? Did we reduce the amount of double teaming? Did the line just get tired? Did Carr get happier feet? Something else unidentified?????

Vinny
11-15-2005, 06:37 PM
Nice job...and I'll post more later but these two plays stand out right away. 4:04 1st & 10 2 WR-L, TE-R. 5 step drop—4:01 ball out but overthrown to AJ 35 yds down field. Pass protection OK except Wade and Riley double LDT and LB comes in free on delay to hit Carr at release. Predominant fault Carr.Gaffney was 2-3 steps in front of Cato June (a linebacker) in the deep seam but Carr throws the ball to a well covered AJ on this play.

11:14 1st & 10 2 WR, TE-L. 7 step drop. Carr has about 2.5 to 3 seconds then pocket has disappeared—not so much any one OL getting beat as whole thing shrinking to nothing. Carr steps up and then breaks forward just shy of LOS so sack for a foot. Tough call on fault IMO—once the pass protection broke down folks were right on top of Carr to take a swipe at a ball being brought up to throw away. Net difference on the game was negligible—loss of down, within 1 foot of LOS. 50/50 fault Carr/Pass Pro. I see a perfectly fine pocket and Carr was in no danger of a sack until he panics too soon and runs right into the pass rush basically sacking himself on the play.

Double Barrel
11-15-2005, 06:38 PM
Great analysis, infantrycak, and appreciated as always. :thumbup

There seems to be a general breakdown by every segment of the offense at some point or another, which is why I don't criticize Carr as the dominant player to fault. When I view each play up and down, the most glaring part is inconsistency is the only constant!

Is it bad talent, bad execution, or bad coaching? Perhaps all of the above?

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 08:26 PM
It also appears the line played worse in the second half.

There were more obvious passing downs so line weaknesses became more exposed.

I haven't rewatched the game yet and wasn't able to pay close attention at the time - did Freeney play the tackle position more in the second half to avoid the double and triple team?

Freeney got moved inside and stunted much more in the 2nd half. Frankly we weren't double teaming him all that much even if the formation indicates TE-L. Although Pitts had a couple of cases of cranial flatulence in the game, when going up against Freeney he had his A game on.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 08:28 PM
I see a perfectly fine pocket and Carr was in no danger of a sack until he panics too soon and runs right into the pass rush basically sacking himself on the play.

This one was a tough one for me. To me it looked like Carr should have held longer, but if coverage was good down field, the result would have been more negative yardage. I decided either way both were at fault--certainly subject to interpretation.

Texan Gal 312
11-15-2005, 09:30 PM
Could you break down the Eagles passing game from last night (LOL) - I didn't see the whole game, but if David Carr played like D. McNabb did last night he would be absolutely crucified on this board. Then I heard a Raider fan on Rome absolutely whining about Kerry Collins. So I guess the question is how many message boards reflect that the fans love or even like their starting quarterback. Manning and Brady come to mind off the top of my head. And Roethlisberger.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 10:48 PM
Infantrycak asked me too add my thoughts...and I've finished the first half. My thoughts are in bold. This isn't meant to challenge his breakdown...but just to add my thoughts as per his request...I will get to the second half later. Unlike a few folks who have characterized Pitts as receiving constant help, I found that Pitts was alone on the vast majority of the passing plays and did a fantastic job on Freeney. Also, there were several targets in pass patterns on most of the passing plays. I find that Carr didn't make any huge mistakes but he didn't make any plays downfield and had plenty of protection. Carr had less than 50 yards passing on the half, made several bad throws, busted the pocket numerous times and even sacked himself on the one sack. I didn't add the two plays that I commented on earlier.

1st QTR

10:07 3rd & 12 3 WR-2R, Wells & Morency, shotgun. Carr reads right then dumps to Morency at 10:05 for 7. OL did well except Brown about to lose contain on LDT. Positive play.

A 3 yard pass w/4 yard yac on a 3rd and 12. We are in 3rd and 12 because on the previous play Carr audibles to a run left on 2nd and 11 (imagine that). Colts in basic cover2 and corners are in man press on the outside and the slot is uncovered. Both backs release so Pitts is one on with with Freeney with 5 targets in a pattern. Cato June makes nice open field stop on Morency


3:14 3rd & 4 4 WR, shotgun. Carr gets ansy and takes off right at 3:12 without major pocket breakdown. Throws the ball away at 3:09 before going out of bounds. Predominant fault Carr.
3 WR’s in the pattern. No TE or back covering Pitts. TE over Wade. Colts only rush 3 as DT (Reagor) backs out into coverage as a spy instead of rushes. Nice pocket with McKinney, Riley and Wade on Brock, Breunner and Wells on Mathis, and Pitts and Brown on Freeney. No reason to scramble right and out of the pocket. Problem compounded because 2 of the 3 WR’s are on the left side of the field.

2nd QTR

10:30 2nd & 8 2 WR-(AJ mtns L to R to put both R), 2 TE. Designed roll right. Rivers doesn’t get out to block safety. 10:26 Carr throws at AJ’s feet on R sideline just prior to getting popped by safety. Wade and Riley allow LDE to split them and he is in hot pursuit as well. 50/50 Carr/Rivers.
Ace formation with AJ in motion to the right for stacked WR right before snap. Rivers misses block (slow to read) on June who comes in hot after recognizing the roll out. He could have given Carr another beat or two. Ball thrown out of bounds.

10:25 3rd & 8 3 WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. 10:23 ball overthrown to Gaffney. Wade is abused by LDE to outside. Brown is saved from whiffing on stunting RDE by shoving him into the backside of McKinney. Predominant fault Carr.
5 targets in pass patterns. Pitts one on one with Freeney again. Good pocket…Carr not rushed. Wade had his hat on the stunting Brock just long enough to get the job done….Brock was no factor in the play. Guards and Center pick up stunt very well. Carr doesn’t appear to look to the 2 eligible targets on the right side of the field at all. Bad pass with Banks catching pass on one hop that landed out of bounds. Color TV guy mentions that Gaffney was open, although you cannot see the full pattern

2:55 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 3 step drop—2:54 ball out to AJ on left sideline for 1st down. Good thing play didn’t need 2 seconds because pocket is crumbling. Riley looked like he got away with a pretty flagrant bulldog. Positive play.
3 WR’s in pattern as TE over Wade. Pitts uncovered. Quick hitter (3-step drop) to AJ on a 5-6 yard stop pattern….aj makes a nice move for some yac and a 1st down. Riley did the patented belly flop on Triplett (hard to catch the number but it was in the 70’s)

2:20 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-R. 5 step drop—Carr looks right then dumps left to Wells at 2:17 for 6 yards. Pass protection good—left side held ground much better than right. Positive play.
TE (Rivers) over Wade who releases. Pitts uncovered once again and completely stones Freeney. 5 targets in downfield patterns. Carr pump fakes right but awfully quick to dump to Wells on a 0 yard pass (with a 6 yard yac) as 4 other targets in patterns and no real pressure.

1:05 1st & 10 3 WR-2R, TE-L, shotgun. Carr looks left then 1:03 ball deflected by Freeney while trying to dump to Morency to the right. Riley should have stayed engaged on Freeney. Predominant fault Riley.
TE over Pitts and 5 targets in patterns as Rivers chips the stunting Simon and releases. Riley was on Freeney who stunted all the way from the RDE to tip the pass going to the right (Morency was 2 yards behind the LOS) and I can’t see how Riley was at fault here at all. Riley was between Carr and Freeney the entire time and Carr didn’t have any imminent danger of being sacked since Riley is between Freeney and Carr, and Carr had no pressure otherwise.

If you look at the top of the screen and freeze it at 1:03 AJ is wide open with nobody near him on a stop pattern. This just looks like another case of Carr predetermining where he is going to throw the ball. No way I asses Riley as the culprit here. Watch the replay and you will see that Carr was totally unaware of Freeney and makes no attempt to throw it over his head. Carr was looking left before this throw but I guess he didn’t see AJ since he looked determined to throw the -2 yard pass (Morency -2 yards behind the LOS).

At this point in the game Carr is 4 of 8 for 35 yards had has been given excellent protection with multiple targets in pass patterns on the passing plays.

:30 3rd & 7 3 WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. :27 ball incomplete to Gaffney. Don’t know if poorly thrown or Gaffney not where expected due to contact resulting in offsetting flags. Pass protection very good including by Rivers who solos a guy. Non-play.


:25 3rd & 7 3WR-2L, TE-L, shotgun. Carr appears to check left, then center then :22 dump to Morency right for 6. Pass protection very good including Pitts solo on Freeney. This play seems like an example of the O self limiting itself. The pass protection has been so bad they are hammering Carr to get rid of the ball which eliminates the possibility of him sitting in a good pocket and taking advantage of time to let the WR’s make something happen. As the Texans D has seen many times, if the QB gets 6 seconds, someone is coming open. Positive play.

5 targets in a pass pattern. Pitts one on one again and handles Freeney with ease. ALL DAY to throw the ball and ZERO pressure but instead of making a downfield pass, Carr is quick to dump the ball to Morency -2 yards behind the LOS on a 3rd and 7 with no pressure whatsoever.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 11:01 PM
Unlike a few folks who have characterized Pitts as receiving constant help, I found that Pitts was alone on the vast majority of the passing plays.

Very true--if anything, I would say Pitts has handled plays better when one on one than trying to interact with someone assisting him.

Have to look back for some things, but two comments, one on the play Freeney batted down, Riley wasn't allowing pressure, but IMO not just he, but a lot of our OLmen seem to think it is ok to block for 2 seconds and then let go. If he had stayed actively engaged at that point the ball wouldn't have been batted down. Doesn't mean it would have been a great play, but better effort would have helped. The other comment is on AJ being open--was he the 1st read, 2nd or 3rd? Just pointing out, this quick read and release system may or may not have passed him by while off screen and he came open after Carr progressed on. Have to look back, but just so folks understand coverage and reads are the hardest two things to read from broadcasts, IMO.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 11:02 PM
Very true--if anything, I would say Pitts has handled plays better when one on one than trying to interact with someone assisting him.

Have to look back for some things, but two comments, one on the play Freeney batted down, Riley wasn't allowing pressure, but IMO not just he, but a lot of our OLmen seem to think it is ok to block for 2 seconds and then let go. If he had stayed actively engaged at that point the ball wouldn't have been batted down.Watch it again...you may be shocked. Riley was in front of Freeney the entire time.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 11:06 PM
Watch it again...you may be shocked. Riley was in front of Freeney the entire time.

I agree Riley is in front the entire time, just not engaged. It may be smarter from a pass protection standpoint for him not to pursue Freeney, but if he was locked up on him the pass could have gotten off. I am not overly critical of either Carr or Riley on the play--basically Freeney was Freeney.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 11:07 PM
The other comment is on AJ being open--was he the 1st read, 2nd or 3rd? Just pointing out, this quick read and release system may or may not have passed him by while off screen and he came open after Carr progressed on. Have to look back, but just so folks understand coverage and reads are the hardest two things to read from broadcasts, IMO.I don't know but I saw 4 or 5 guys in a patterns with good protection and Carr constatly dumping to the backs. I thought you had good views on your plays on balance.

Runner
11-15-2005, 11:08 PM
Unlike a few folks who have characterized Pitts as receiving constant help, I found that Pitts was alone on the vast majority of the passing plays.

Well that is good news. They had game planned help from the guard and some RB chipping. I saw some guard help when I watched the game live; now I'm excited to check my recording tomorrow. It is stunning to me that the coaches adjusted to allow him more one-on-one action in response to him being able to handle it. I know it must have made him happy. He was less than pleased with the tight end help he received in Seattle, so he's probably happy now too.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 11:09 PM
I agree Riley is in front the entire time, just not engaged. It may be smarter from a pass protection standpoint for him not to pursue Freeney, but if he was locked up on him the pass could have gotten off. I am not overly critical of either Carr or Riley on the play--basically Freeney was Freeney.I don't understand that. Riley's body is completely in between Carr and Freeney as Freeney is streaking across the line at break neck speed. I don't know how much more any lineman could do. Freeney wasn't anywhere close to Carr or close to sacking Carr.

Coach C.
11-15-2005, 11:10 PM
Just one weird thing is this the guys on this board who know football were calling for Pitts to be LT since hell since last year. How is it that we saw a kid that could play the position and we tried to fix something that was not broken. It just disturbs me by the "FEMA" approach to coaching. That is Vinny's statement. I like Dom as a coach never really liked him as a head coach, but hopefully McNair will change that in the offseason. Unfortunately I think Kubiak will be busy in the playoffs until the go to Indy and get stomped.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 11:12 PM
Well that is good news. They had game planned help from the guard and some RB chipping. I saw some guard help when I watched the game live; now I'm excited to check my recording tomorrow. It is stunning to me that the coaches adjusted to allow him more one-on-one action in response to him being able to handle it. I know it must have made him happy. He was less than pleased with the tight end help he received in Seattle, so he's probably pleased too.There was some Guard help on some plays but most of the TE or RB help went to the strong side. Freeney is a likely Hall of Famer and Pitts pretty much stoned him the first half....now, I haven't looked at the second half yet since this takes so much time to do. I run every play about 20 times and in real time and in slow motion. I'm not sure how Pitts held up on the second half...but I will share it by tomorrow sometime.

Runner
11-15-2005, 11:15 PM
There was some Guard help on some plays but most of the TE or RB help went to the strong side. Freeney is a likely Hall of Famer and Pitts pretty much stoned him the first half....now, I haven't looked at the second half yet since this takes so much time to do. I run every play about 20 times and in real time and in slow motion. I'm not sure how Pitts held up on the second half...but I will share it by tomorrow sometime.

Truth be told, a lot of lineman don't like the running back chip anyway, unless the RB is really good at it. Nothing a tackle hates more than being engaged and in control and have the RB knock one of his arms off of the rusher.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 11:15 PM
I don't know but I saw 4 or 5 guys in a patterns with good protection and Carr constatly dumping to the backs.

In all honesty, I only looked at the WR's when the coverage was exceptionally good, i.e. rarely. The TV just doesn't leave the QB until the ball is in the air so if it is never in the air or only on a dump off, most of the receivers are off screen. I'll look back at any you identify as open--my only point is Carr either through coaching or personal limitations is clearly on a quick read system so if option #1 is covered at read time # 1, he isn't coming back to him again later on. Were there any you saw where he was looking at the receiver and the receiver was open all in one frame? How about an Admin discount on coaches' game film?

mean mark8
11-15-2005, 11:17 PM
Vinny and/or Infantrycak, what do you think about this proposal:

What if we played Ragone for a half and Carr for a half in our next 3 or so ball games?

I think it would fairly evaluate how Carr's performing rather than just simply benching him and letting Ragone play against what is supposed to be easier teams in 5 of the last 7 games. If Ragone outplays him, Ragone earns more playing time and McNair has something to think about before just handing over $8 million plus $5.5 million salary for 2 years and $6 million for one more to a QB who hasn't shown too much more than incredible guts and a decent start last year. If Ragone isn't the QB that he looked like in Europe and stinks things up, it should be a lot easier signing Carr and looking for coaching and line help. To me this sounds like a sound business decision. Who cares about trying Banks because he is not the QB of our future. This is just to see if Ragone might be. Remember, Tom Brady replaced a former number one overall pick while he was in his second year after being drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 11:18 PM
I don't understand that. Riley's body is completely in between Carr and Freeney as Freeney is streaking across the line at break neck speed. I don't know how much more any lineman could do. Freeney wasn't anywhere close to Carr or close to sacking Carr.

OK, I don't claim to be an OL expert and I know you have played there. It just looks like if Riley had taken one step forward and kept hands on Freeney, he might not have been able to jump and block. Do you think Carr was wrong to throw the ball?--should he have helped Riley out by pump faking? The play didn't work--if we have to assign fault, where is it?

Vinny
11-15-2005, 11:49 PM
OK, I don't claim to be an OL expert and I know you have played there. It just looks like if Riley had taken one step forward and kept hands on Freeney, he might not have been able to jump and block. Do you think Carr was wrong to throw the ball?--should he have helped Riley out by pump faking? The play didn't work--if we have to assign fault, where is it?I'm no expert either but Riley can't see David passing the ball behind him. I thought he did a very good job keeping his body between Freeney and his quarterback. This is what I see... I see Freeney coming right to left against a man he is much quicker than and he tries to put a little juke on Riley but Riley punches him on the 27 yard line and keeps shuffling his feet laterally from left to right to guard against a spin move and does a good job to stay between him and Carr. Freeney is incredibly tough to block in space and I think Riley did well. Freeney made a great play to tip the ball but I don't see how I could blame Riley for that. Carr wasn't close to being sacked and Riley kept his body between Freeney and Carr the whole time.

I'm not going to say I'm right and you are wrong...but I see it as a positive play for Riley.

Double Barrel
11-16-2005, 12:05 AM
Thank yo,u dudes, for your analysis. Good stuff! :thumbup

A lot of nice insight and depth to your discussions really sheds some light on things. It's very educational.

Just thought I'd add that you're appreciated. Carry on. :)

Vinny
11-16-2005, 12:11 AM
Vinny and/or Infantrycak, what do you think about this proposal:

What if we played Ragone for a half and Carr for a half in our next 3 or so ball games?

I think it would fairly evaluate how Carr's performing rather than just simply benching him and letting Ragone play against what is supposed to be easier teams in 5 of the last 7 games. If Ragone outplays him, Ragone earns more playing time and McNair has something to think about before just handing over $8 million plus $5.5 million salary for 2 years and $6 million for one more to a QB who hasn't shown too much more than incredible guts and a decent start last year. If Ragone isn't the QB that he looked like in Europe and stinks things up, it should be a lot easier signing Carr and looking for coaching and line help. To me this sounds like a sound business decision. Who cares about trying Banks because he is not the QB of our future. This is just to see if Ragone might be. Remember, Tom Brady replaced a former number one overall pick while he was in his second year after being drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.I donno...no matter what I think we have the reality that Capers is fighting for his job and has stated in the past that as long as David is healthy he is going to play. No matter how much I break down TV tape I can't see downfield on 80% of the plays so I can't give anything but an incomplete opinion on the passing game as Infantrycak mentioned earlier. You know this season is over...I know it's over but to Capers and Casserly they are trying to win out and salvage this thing. I doubt we see Ragone due to that. He is also a pretty bad practice player from what I understand...but some guys play better live than they practice. Personally, I am not a believer that Carr will evolve into a franchise caliber QB and I think we watch some pretty average to bad quarterbacking from week to week, but guys like Plummer, Trent Green and Rich Gannon were slow starters early in their careers too....I donno. I really do wish I could be more enthusiastic about Carr. He is a good guy and all.

dalemurphy
11-16-2005, 12:20 AM
I donno...no matter what I think we have the reality that Capers is fighting for his job and has stated in the past that as long as David is healthy he is going to play. No matter how much I break down TV tape I can't see downfield on 80% of the plays so I can't give anything but an incomplete opinion on the passing game as Infantrycak mentioned earlier. You know this season is over...I know it's over but to Capers and Casserly they are trying to win out and salvage this thing. I doubt we see Ragone due to that. He is also a pretty bad practice player from what I understand...but some guys play better live than they practice. Personally, I am not a believer that Carr will evolve into a franchise caliber QB and I think we watch some pretty average to bad quarterbacking from week to week, but guys like Plummer, Trent Green and Rich Gannon were slow starters early in their careers too....I donno. I really do wish I could be more enthusiastic about Carr. He is a good guy and all.


Vinny, I think the Carr criticisms are worthless at this point. I understand that you are reacting to Carr apologists. The reality is that I can not think of any QBs, other than John Elway, that would be successful with this team and this coaching staff in the environment Carr's been in. I was a Cowboy fan back in the late 80's and early 90's and Aikman was taking similar criticism when the Cowboys stunk, especially his first two seasons under David Shula. Once Norv arrived and the talent improved, he quickly developed into an all-pro QB. I don't know whether that will happen with Carr or not, but it makes sense from the organization's perspective to wait and see. After all, if this mess doesn't get fixed, we're just going to ruin another Qbs career.

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 08:05 AM
I'm not going to say I'm right and you are wrong...but I see it as a positive play for Riley.

I was originally going to score that play as positive for Freeney but decided to be consistant and try to assess fault for an unsuccessful Texan play. Should have stuck with Freeney as the reason. That would reduce the predominant fault numbers by .5 for Carr and .5 for pass protection.

eriadoc
11-16-2005, 08:33 AM
I don't know but I saw 4 or 5 guys in a patterns with good protection and Carr constatly dumping to the backs. I thought you had good views on your plays on balance.

That many in pattern is promising, but if he's being conditioned to get the ball out in two-three seconds (look at the time on most of the pass plays), they may not be finding much success coming open downfield. Also, if the opposition is dropping 7, that can't be helping. How much of this is scheme and how much rests on the players?

With the O-line's performance the past couple weeks, I wouldn't mind seeing a few 7-step drops and see what we can get downfield.

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 09:55 AM
Vinny, in those plays where we sent 5 out, how many Colts were attacking the QB? What was the coverage of the defense, was it good, bad?

Vinny
11-16-2005, 10:03 AM
The Colts rushed 4 most of the time and I saw the FS and the SS out of the screen most of the time over the top in a basic cover 2. They would usually press the outside receivers and leave the slot open with linebacker zones underneath with one man dedicated to spying Carr's roll outs on several snaps.

I have asked the Texans and the NFL to let us download or buy game film (or some edited version of game film) so the fans can look at the secondary play and I think this would be a great revenue stream for the league since they already have the film laying around and really do not need to spend any money on this. I think the hard core fans like us would purchase the film because we would love to break down our players and discuss them...but I guess they would rather make money on foo-foo stuff and NFL merchandise than giving us a look at the secondary and the wide out play. I mean, we are allowed to see the QB's and the RB's as the play unfolds but for some reason we aren't allowed to see the secondary. I know that's all we get with the TV coverage but they have the ability to give us hard core fans more...but they don't.

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 10:12 AM
The Colts rushed 4 most of the time and I saw the FS and the SS out of the screen most of the time over the top in a basic cover 2. They would usually press the outside receivers and leave the slot open with linebacker zones underneath with one man dedicated to spying Carr's roll outs on several snaps.

I have asked the Texans and the NFL to let us download or buy game film (or some edited version of game film) so the fans can look at the secondary play and I think this would be a great revenue stream for the league since they already have the film laying around and really do not need to spend any money on this. I think the hard core fans like us would purchase the film because we would love to break down our players and discuss them...but I guess they would rather make money on foo-foo stuff and NFL merchandise than giving us a look at the secondary and the wide out play. I mean, we are allowed to see the QB's and the RB's as the play unfolds but for some reason we aren't allowed to see the secondary. I know that's all we get with the TV coverage but they have the ability to give us hard core fans more...but they don't.That's one of the thing I think the telecast coverage is missing, maybe a small window on the play to show the whole field. Something like that that gives the NFL fans something more than just the one sided angle and the slow motion replay of the ball being caught.

I think that the roll outs were out-gameplaned 2 games ago, we have no element of surprise. Carrs options are pretty much to throw to the slot or dump to the back. I see other teams beat the cover 2 all the time, but really do we have a TE to do that? The cover 2, especially Dungy's, is very hard to beat because everyone knows their assignments well and he finally has the players he's wanted to fulfill it. The bigger point I'm trying to make is that its pretty easy to pick on Carr going against the Colts, they are an undefeated team halfway through the season.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 10:18 AM
this has been a discussion in broadcasting for a long time. CBS and ESPN are considering what is called a field Box for their sports broadcasts. The Field Box would show the action that is not usually the most watchable by their standards. Football is centered around the QB and that was figured out early in TV broadcast. Early broadcast had a much wider view of the field. ESPN wants to still focus on the QB and RB or LOS but with the new Monday Night Football and other programs they are wanting to do this Field Box. You will likely have to wait till the preseason to see this though.

Runner
11-17-2005, 08:26 AM
There was some Guard help on some plays but most of the TE or RB help went to the strong side. Freeney is a likely Hall of Famer and Pitts pretty much stoned him the first half....now, I haven't looked at the second half yet since this takes so much time to do. I run every play about 20 times and in real time and in slow motion. I'm not sure how Pitts held up on the second half...but I will share it by tomorrow sometime.

Here is a little more on the double teaming. The LT/LG did not to double team immediately at the snap of the ball. The way it was planned, the guard would help only if Freeney took an inside rush or if he did his spin move. This allowed Pitts to set up a little farther outside/deeper at the snap to compensate for Freeney's usually effective speed rush. So not only did Chester do well on the speed rush, but Milford did well in recognizing and reacting when required to double team.

I'm glad to see the coaches finally planned this type of blocking. The offense has been too vanilla in many ways, not just play calling. For the most part last year and early this year it was just LT tackle take right end, RT take left end, etc. It's too bad the coaches take so long to implement something like this to either take advantage of our players' strengths or taking away their players' strengths.