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View Full Version : The Texans' defense as a 4-3


TexanFanInCC
11-15-2005, 12:51 PM
this is what i would like to see when capers is fired....and dont lie to yourselves people. its inevitable.

LE - Robaire Smith
LDT - Seth Payne
RDT - Travis Johnson
RE - Antwan Peek
LOLB - Jason Babin
MLB - Kailee Wong
ROLB - Morlon Greenwood
CB - Dunta Robinson
CB - anyone but pukehanon
SS - Glenn Earl
FS - anyone but coldman

thoughts??

i personally dont think we have a personnel problem, and i dont want to see casserly, or whoever is our GM, do a complete overhaul. we need a system change. the offense on the other hand needs the overhaul...and to briefy touch on that, the only ones that need to stay are carr, norris, davis, johnson, pitts, mathis, and j. wells. everyone else is expendable.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 01:11 PM
this is what i would like to see when capers is fired....and dont lie to yourselves people. its inevitable.

LE - Robaire Smith
LDT - Seth Payne
RDT - Travis Johnson
RE - Antwan Peek
LOLB - Jason Babin
MLB - Kailee Wong
ROLB - Morlon Greenwood
CB - Dunta Robinson
CB - anyone but pukehanon
SS - Glenn Earl
FS - anyone but coldman

thoughts??Robaire Smith isn't a 4-3 DE...he has zero pass rushing skill. Peek is better suited for situational pass rusher and isn't the weak side edge rusher we need to man that spot long term. Walker is the best or second best defender on our team...and you don't list him. I don't think Wong is instinctive enough to be a middle linebacker in a 4-3.

Double Barrel
11-15-2005, 01:14 PM
Peek and Smith as 4-3 ends?! No way, as Vinny mentioned, they don't have the skills to put consitent pressure on the pocket or stop the run. The four linemen in a 4-3 have to be solid and disruptive, and there are certain skills required.

Many teams use a 3-4 today because of the lack of depth of defensive linemen in the NFL.

And where's Walker?! :confused:

HardKnockTexan
11-15-2005, 01:17 PM
I think Peek would be fine at defensive end if he adds some weight and strength. He's fast enough to get around the edge but from what i've seen he lacks a bullrush which in run defense is VERY important.

SESupergenius
11-15-2005, 01:20 PM
A switch to a 4-3 would only be as good as the coordinator that runs it. If we were to switch to a 4-3 then I agree with Vinny, Wong is not a MLB. He did his best when he was on the ends. I thought he played really well last year when he was in the ROLB spot, but I feel that when we had Glenn, Wong and Walker it was one of the better units in football.

I'd see it as this:

Babin
Walker
Payne/Smith
Johnson

LB:
Wong
Greenwood
Orr/Anderson

Texas
11-15-2005, 03:03 PM
I agree. Do you think polk would fit in the mix anywhere?

rmartin65
11-15-2005, 03:11 PM
I have no problem with CC Brown at SS.

keyfro
11-15-2005, 03:15 PM
my question is does anyone really think that either babin or peek can make the transition to a 4-3 DE...granted they both played the position in college but they both would need to add weight...something peek has had trouble with the entire time he's been here...and what would you do with our DT situation then...you have walker, johnson, smith, and payne...two of which just recently signed multi-year and multi-million dollar contracts...not to mention a first round pick from last year...switching to a 4-3 defense is coming but if you ask me we almost have to cut or trade walker at the end of the season and pick up a 4-3 DE in FA or trade for one...dwayne white from tampa bay doesn't start but has enough talent to be a regular starter on a lot of other teams...might we trade walker for him with tampa...or do we hope that a lot of our converted tweeners can add the weight and become regular DE's

ccdude730
11-15-2005, 03:29 PM
I have no problem with CC Brown at SS.
i think he has been making too many mistakes in the passing game to keep him as a fulltime starter

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 03:32 PM
Where is Walker? That's funny...oh, wait. You weren't telling a joke...

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 03:40 PM
LE - Robaire Smith
LDT - Seth Payne
RDT - Travis Johnson
RE - Antwan Peek
LOLB - Jason Babin
MLB - Kailee Wong
ROLB - Morlon Greenwood
CB - Dunta Robinson
CB - anyone but pukehanon
SS - Glenn Earl
FS - anyone but coldman

thoughts??

If we switch to the 4-3 next year, I think we will have a couple of guys playing somewhat out of position for a year.
So how will we look?
LDE - We will need to find someone, but we could probably get by with Walker or TJ for a season. Robaire Smith is way too big to play DE.
LDT/RDT - This is one area that shouldn't be a concern going into next season. We ostensibly have 4 of them in Smith, Walker, TJ, and Payne.
RDE - Long-term we need to find someone that is a pass-rusher to play this position. Babin or Peek might have to play it some in 2006, but they are undersized.

LLB/MLB - Wong will either be our LLB or MLB. He played MLB for Minnesota, but he wasn't "all that" there. Whichever position he doesn't play, we need to address in the offseason.
RLB - Greenwood - he played this position for Miami and he was solid, if not spectacular, there.

I'm not addressing the secondary because the issues are there regardless of whether we go with a 3-4 or 4-3.

Cincinnatikid
11-15-2005, 03:59 PM
I think Peek would be fine at defensive end if he adds some weight and strength. He's fast enough to get around the edge but from what i've seen he lacks a bullrush which in run defense is VERY important.

I hate to tell you but if you go back and look at the film, peek had quite a few plays where he pancaked his blocker. He did it to both Dallas Clark and the LT. Also if he has a decent linemen working next to him to take up some blockers he can do fine. Robert Mathis of the colts leads the NFL in sacks and weight 235. He can do this because the DTs take up the center, both guards and usually they can even work on one of the OTs. The problem is that the texans rarely have the DEs taking up any of the OTs protection so the OLBs cant get into the backfield too often. If you have a DT/DE that can hold up the OT for a split second that allows the DE or OLB to get outside and around. The colts have undersized DE, just like Dungy had in Tampa Bay, and his defenses have been very good (the colts finally this season). The key to having a good pass rush is a good interior Dline. If you have good play inside that will open up the outside rush. Peek and Babin are both strong enough to play OLB or DE as long as they have good players next to them.

SESupergenius
11-15-2005, 04:05 PM
I hate to tell you but if you go back and look at the film, peek had quite a few plays where he pancaked his blocker. He did it to both Dallas Clark and the LT. Also if he has a decent linemen working next to him to take up some blockers he can do fine. Robert Mathis of the colts leads the NFL in sacks and weight 235. He can do this because the DTs take up the center, both guards and usually they can even work on one of the OTs. The problem is that the texans rarely have the DEs taking up any of the OTs protection so the OLBs cant get into the backfield too often. If you have a DT/DE that can hold up the OT for a split second that allows the DE or OLB to get outside and around. The colts have undersized DE, just like Dungy had in Tampa Bay, and his defenses have been very good (the colts finally this season). The key to having a good pass rush is a good interior Dline. If you have good play inside that will open up the outside rush. Peek and Babin are both strong enough to play OLB or DE as long as they have good players next to them.
Which is why it's perplexing to me why we went after TJ. He's not the kind of guy that demands double teams and is not generally great at the point of attack which usually translates to strength. We need very strong guys that can bench press my house.

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2005, 04:23 PM
While the team has not made good choices, the personnel that it has accumulated is geared to 3-4. There will be an overhaul on the defense if we go a majority 4-3 team.

MorKnolle
11-15-2005, 04:48 PM
Peek and Babin could both play DE but both, especially Peek, would need to add a little weight/strength to play there full-time. Peek is a better pass-rusher but Babin is also useless in coverage, although he does tackle reasonably well when he is in position to do so. Babin should either be a DE or MLB in a 4-3, and a ILB in a 3-4. Peek should be OLB or DE in a 4-3, and OLB in a 3-4. Greenwood and Wong would both probably be better at OLB. Either way I'd like to see us draft a pass-rushing specialist, either a OLB if we are running a 3-4 or a DE if we are running a 4-3. Walker, Payne, and Robaire are all good 3-4 DE/DT or 4-3 DT, and TJ is getting there, but none of them are 4-3 DE. As for secondary, Dunta is obviously the man and I'd like to see us get a CB that has Buchanon's speed but will actually stay on a guy rather than backing so far off. Brown, Simmons, and Earl are all functional safeties, they are all somewhat fast and relatively good tacklers, but none are very good in coverage. We either need to draft a big-time hitting SS type like Roy Williams and move C.C. Brown to FS or else draft a fast, ball-hawking FS like Ed Reed and leave Brown at SS. That's my take on the defense, but a lot of it depends on our DC and system next year.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 05:03 PM
While the team has not made good choices, the personnel that it has accumulated is geared to 3-4. There will be an overhaul on the defense if we go a majority 4-3 team.

I think if Casserly comes back somehow, he will push for a coach that prefers the 4-3. Why? Because he will probably tell McNair that his lack of knowledge of the 3-4 (and reliance on Capers) led to some personnel mistakes on that side of the ball.

powda
11-15-2005, 05:07 PM
de babin
dt payne
dt smith
de johnson

wlb greenwood
mlb anderson
slb peek

cb d-rob
cb fa/2nd or 3rd rd pick
nb p-burnt
db faggins

ss brown
fs earl


anderson shows good range and has played regularly in the nickle package. babin goes to suited position with weight gain. johnson is more athletic then payne or smith and plays strong side de till 07 when he replaces payne. peek gets shot at de in training camp but loses out to babin. have to get a #2 cb. d-rob gets moved anywhere on the field to cover opposing teams #1 wr. earl regains some of the quicks he lost from his injury ,and brown has a good skill set but makes to mental errors and takes bad angles...both can be corrected.

greenwood-anderson-peek are the fastest combination of lb's we can put on the field. polk serves as quality reserve.

new regime team cuts offense and defense:

coleman, walker, wong, mckinney, weigert, bradford.

mckinney may be keeper because of his versatility but only if he takes serious paycut. wong is comming off major injury--has serious contract ,and he dosent have a skill set i want in a new 4-3. weigert is far from domminant and rarely on the field...plus hes overpayed. when he refuses to restructure his contract he's cut (allowed to seek trade).

we only have 2-3 minor fa signings while we bite the bullet for the contract cuts this year.

we trade out of the #1 pick 3-5 spots back for additional picks. we will be a 4-3 defense with holes to fill.

wade plays rg next year while pitts moves to rt (rookie lt)

random thoughts...sorry.

College Texan
11-15-2005, 05:20 PM
What is the matter with the size of Peak and Babin?
Have ya seen the Colts D-line?
there are two 4-3 formations I think will work........

---------------C.C. Brown---------------------G.Earl-----------------


D-Rob----------------------------------------------------------FA/Faggins


--------------------Wong---------Polk/Orr-----------Peak----------


---------------TJ-------Payne------Walker----------Robair-------

This would be my 1st and 2nd down package (above)

--------------C.C. Brown--------------------Earl------------


D-Rob-----------------Wong-----Polk/Orr----Greenwood------------FA/Faggins


--------------Peak------Robaire----------TJ-------Babin-------

This is my 3rd down passing situation package (above)

Have ya seen TJ highlights in College, let him loose and he'll get in the backfield. Also, I think it would make a difference to put our ends in a
3 point stance.

College Texan
11-15-2005, 05:27 PM
In the draft we pick up B.Carpenter and Huff, to take over the WLB spot and a safety or corner spot. I would personally like to see Huff play corner. We would have two hard hitting corners to strike fear in the hearts of the Colts wide-outs.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 05:45 PM
Payne and Smith are the truest DT's on the team. Why do people keep wanting to put them at DE in a 4-3? Walker especially, and maybe TJ have the skill set to be good LDE's. Smith at 4-3 DE just isn't happening.

MorKnolle
11-15-2005, 05:49 PM
Shantee Orr is definitely not a MLB, and Smith, Walker, Payne, and TJ cannot play 4-3 DE. Assuming we have the same defensive personnel as this year (which we shouldn't after free agency and the draft are done) here is what our defensive starters should look like:

4-3:
DL (L-R): Babin; Payne/Walker/Johnson; Smith; Peek
LB (L-R): Greenwood/Wong; Wong/Polk; Orr
CB: Robinson; Buchanon (after he learns to cover someone within 5 yards)
S: Brown; Earl/Simmons

3-4:
DL (L-R): Walker/Johnson ; Payne; Smith
LB (L-R): Orr; Wong; Babin; Peek
CB/S same as above

Vinny
11-15-2005, 05:51 PM
If we go to a 4-3 we have to draft a middle linebacker - or we need to sign a FA to play there. Greenwood is the most suited but he isn't physical enough.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 05:52 PM
Payne and Smith are the truest DT's on the team. Why do people keep wanting to put them at DE in a 4-3? Walker especially, and maybe TJ have the skill set to be good LDE's. Smith at 4-3 DE just isn't happening.

I agree. That is basically what I said earlier. I guess guys are just guessing where players should go without any actual facts.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 05:55 PM
Vinny,

I take it you have Wong playing LLB? I didn't follow Wong at Minnesota. Was he a subpar MLB? I know Cleveland recruited him to play MLB for them (when Davis was HC) the same year we recruited him to play OLB for us.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 06:02 PM
Vinny,

I take it you have Wong playing LLB? I didn't follow Wong at Minnesota. Was he a subpar MLB? I know Cleveland recruited him to play MLB for them (when Davis was HC) the same year we recruited him to play OLB for us.I think he would make a better conventional 4-3 strongside Sam linebacker than Babin would. I just don't think he looks too instinctive in the middle where you have to be a heat seeking missle type. I'd draft a MLB and put Greenwood at the will and Wong over the te on the strongside.

College Texan
11-15-2005, 06:04 PM
SmithI think is qicker off the snap than Walker. Walker and Payne will be able to play inside because they have the size and skills to lock down the middle. They take up two blocks in a 3-4 lined up over the center and tackle, they should do the same lined up over guards. having robaire on the strongside edge will sacrafice us in the pass rush a bit but will stop from getting run over in the running game where babin at the strongside is hurting us. And TJ can play end to some degree. A 4-3 doesn't neccesarily mean we need smaller faster guys. Our big guys will do assuming we don't get anybody in the draft to help the D. I also think we can play both Babin and peak as ends on 3rd downs. Have ya even seen our nickle package? It is basically the same thing except our ends are not all the way down.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 06:06 PM
SmithI think is qicker off the snap than Walker. no way. Walker is a lightning bolt off the line and Smith is a big plodder.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 06:17 PM
SmithI think is qicker off the snap than Walker. Walker and Payne will be able to play inside because they have the size and skills to lock down the middle. They take up two blocks in a 3-4 lined up over the center and tackle, they should do the same lined up over guards.

Have you actually seen Walker and Smith standing next to one another? Smith makes Walker look like a dwarf in comparison. There is absolutely no way Smith could play an effective LDE in a 4-3.

keyfro
11-15-2005, 06:32 PM
i think the a good point was made about the defensive end position with the personal we have we might want to go to a Dungy type defense where we have undersized ends...in that case peek and babin would be ideal...but i would also look to draft another one...someone like va tech's trapp...i also believe we'll look to trade g-funk off for a true MLB which will allow us to have wong at the strong side and greenwood weak side...remember charlie anderson has the typical size to be the strong side outside linebacker...the new coaching staff might give him more of a look

real
11-15-2005, 06:39 PM
I think we need to stick with the 3-4 because we have already been getting players to fit into that scheme and it would set us back on defense. Plus our 3-4 isnt that far off from being solid we just need a couple of players on defense maybe two more line backers..., safeties and corners will have to be adjusted regardless

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 06:51 PM
SmithI think is qicker off the snap than Walker.

If Smith has ever been quicker off a snap than Walker there was at least one little yellow hanky in the air for encroachment.

real
11-15-2005, 06:55 PM
Thank god for the off season..........

rmartin65
11-15-2005, 07:19 PM
i think he has been making too many mistakes in the passing game to keep him as a fulltime starter
He is a rookie and rookies make mistakes. How he does in the rest of the season determines if he starts next year. I think he will play well.

College Texan
11-15-2005, 07:45 PM
If ya have been watching you will notice that Ro-bear consistently gets penetration, but in our 3-4 scheme we don't cut our guys loose and let them do that all the time. Walker I see gets more double teams, so I think that he will be better in the middle of a 4-3, and Ro-bear has the size and quickness to force teams to run opposite of him. I Do think if we get the first overall we should trade the Jets for their first and Vilma. Vilma would be great in whatever system we run. I also think Babin would be a bett LOLB than Anderson and I think Anderson is the better pass rusher of the two and he would play down on the line.

real
11-15-2005, 07:48 PM
I dont think theyd give up vilma...

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2005, 07:49 PM
If ya have been watching you will notice that Ro-bear consistently gets penetration, but in our 3-4 scheme we don't cut our guys loose and let them do that all the time. Walker I see gets more double teams, so I think that he will be better in the middle of a 4-3, and Ro-bear has the size and quickness to force teams to run opposite of him. I Do think if we get the first overall we should trade the Jets for their first and Vilma. Vilma would be great in whatever system we run. I also think Babin would be a bett LOLB than Anderson and I think Anderson is the better pass rusher of the two and he would play down on the line.

Why would the Jets trade Vilma?

hot pickle
11-16-2005, 09:25 AM
I was bored last night and i came across this DE/OLB, He has been with the oakland raiders and chicago bears, he hasn't done to much on the field, but his Combine numbers look good, and if were gonna switch to a 4-3 he might be a good fit, starting or backing up, but i don't know as much as some of you guys, so tell me what you think, here is his prospect profile

http://http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/pierson_shurron


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