PDA

View Full Version : Ragone over Chris Simms


1-3
11-14-2005, 06:53 PM
Not that Simms was a world beater but how was there any question who had the better chance to play in an NFL game? The most ludicrous part was drafting a QB in the 3rd round to begin with, but given that dumbass decision why not take a flyer on the guy with some talent. This decision doesn't really hurt as that much, but I think it again goes to show you the incompetence we are dealing with.

Kaiser Toro
11-14-2005, 06:58 PM
I agree, but it is 20/20 backside vision. Heck, the whole state of Texas would have drafted Major Applewhite, let alone anyone else, over Simms if they were a GM.

Fiddy
11-14-2005, 06:58 PM
First you have to give Ragone a chance before you pass a judgement on this one. And 2 rookie starts dont count...

ArlingtonTexan
11-14-2005, 07:11 PM
First you have to give Ragone a chance before you pass a judgement on this one. And 2 rookie starts dont count...

I have been as brutal as anyone on Ragone and I even agree that until he plays some or is released that final judgement should not be passed.

real
11-14-2005, 07:18 PM
why don't they let ragone play, he couldnt do that much worse than carr or banks... could he?

Fiddy
11-14-2005, 07:40 PM
why don't they let ragone play, he couldnt do that much worse than carr or banks... could he? That's the thing. The front office and coaching staff are scared that Ragone will come in, perform well and start a QB controversy. Something they dont want, especially with Carr's option coming up.

vtech9
11-14-2005, 08:11 PM
That's the thing. The front office and coaching staff are scared that Ragone will come in, perform well and start a QB controversy. Something they dont want, especially with Carr's option coming up.
You know something Fiddy? I think you are probably pretty close on that one.

College Texan
11-14-2005, 08:28 PM
ragone will be a good back up for a long time for us, unless someone amkes us an offer we can't refuse

Double Barrel
11-14-2005, 08:32 PM
That's the thing. The front office and coaching staff are scared that Ragone will come in, perform well and start a QB controversy. Something they dont want, especially with Carr's option coming up.

Good take. I agree.

Ragone is Mr. NFL Europe. I mean, he can't be all that bad, 'eh? I know it's a minor league and all, but he's still got to have something to get that award regardless.

Maybe Ragone is actually our QB of the future, and we're just trying to get our act together before throwing him into the fire and shell-shocking another QB... :hmmm:

[/speculation]

Runner
11-14-2005, 08:36 PM
All I can point to is that Ragone has excelled at every level where he has had solid playing time. He deserves a chance to see if that continues at the highest level - wouldn't it be great if he does well, and does it here rather than somewhere else?

The way this season is going, at the end of the year we should have no young players on the team about whom the coaches can continue to say "we don't know how good he is since he hasn't had a chance to play".

vtech9
11-14-2005, 09:31 PM
All I can point to is that Ragone has excelled at every level where he has had solid playing time. He deserves a chance to see if that continues at the highest level - wouldn't it be great if he does well, and does it here rather than somewhere else?

The way this season is going, at the end of the year we should have no young players on the team about whom the coaches can continue to say "we don't know how good he is since he hasn't had a chance to play".
I agree...if not sooner, as soon as we get mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, we should see what all of the other guys can do. Guys like Ragone, Hollings, and any of the other unproven players.

infantrycak
11-14-2005, 09:47 PM
That's the thing. The front office and coaching staff are scared that Ragone will come in, perform well and start a QB controversy. Something they dont want, especially with Carr's option coming up.

I am sorry, but this is a fan theory only that just doesn't hold up to reality. There is no way Casserly and Capers are going to blissfully be ridden out of town on a 2-14 season thinking man am I glad no one knows Ragone gave us a better chance to win some of those games. These guys are fighting for their jobs. I don't agree with how they are going about it, but I seriously doubt they are making any conscious decision which they feel gives them less of a chance of winning.

Fiddy
11-14-2005, 10:54 PM
I am sorry, but this is a fan theory only that just doesn't hold up to reality. There is no way Casserly and Capers are going to blissfully be ridden out of town on a 2-14 season thinking man am I glad no one knows Ragone gave us a better chance to win some of those games. These guys are fighting for their jobs. I don't agree with how they are going about it, but I seriously doubt they are making any conscious decision which they feel gives them less of a chance of winning. I agree it's totally my speculation but this is how I see it:

They are damned if they do, damned if they dont. If they play Ragone and he comes in now and plays well, the questions to Capers will be "why didnt he get in sooner" and the questions to Casserly would be "where did the Carr pick go wrong and what did you see in him?" We could go out on a nice little win streak this season and Capers and Casserly are still gone. Casserly and Capers were going to fail from day 1 if Carr didnt pan out. It was their pick, they were in love with him and they thought he was gonna be an All-Pro.

Casserly and Capers are done and they have loyalty ties to Carr because they are the ones that let him endure all those sacks. Carr stuck up for those guys when he was hitting turf. Casserly and Capers probably feel obiligated to stick with Carr because they put him in this situation.

1-3
11-14-2005, 11:30 PM
Ragone is behind Tony Banks. FWIW 610's Matt Jackson says he looks like crap in every practice he's witnessed (about 90% of them).

Fiddy
11-14-2005, 11:39 PM
Ragone is behind Tony Banks. FWIW 610's Matt Jackson says he looks like crap in every practice he's witnessed (about 90% of them). and, I guess, Carr looks good in practice and you can see what he does in a game...

Nighthawk
11-15-2005, 02:28 AM
as soon as we get mathematically eliminated from the playoffs

son, that IS funny.

Nighthawk
11-15-2005, 02:31 AM
I am sorry, but this is a fan theory only that just doesn't hold up to reality. There is no way Casserly and Capers are going to blissfully be ridden out of town on a 2-14 season thinking man am I glad no one knows Ragone gave us a better chance to win some of those games.

I don't buy it. Capers hasn't a clue what Ragone (or Banks, for that matter) would or could do if given substantial playing time over half a season. The Carr thing was a setup from day one and Capers and Casserly will go down in flames before giving him up.

I'm not sure that Ragone or Banks could do better than Carr, but I am pretty sure they could not do worse.

infantrycak
11-15-2005, 07:04 AM
I don't buy it. Capers hasn't a clue what Ragone (or Banks, for that matter) would or could do if given substantial playing time over half a season. The Carr thing was a setup from day one and Capers and Casserly will go down in flames before giving him up.

I'm not sure that Ragone or Banks could do better than Carr, but I am pretty sure they could not do worse.

So Capers and Casserly have no clue what Ragone can do despite watching him for 3 years now, and he clearly isn't as good in practice as Carr, but secretly they harbor a fear that he actually will win games so they don't play him.

Welcome to the MB Mr. Stone. You obviously don't need a tour as you have already found Conspiracy LaLa Land.

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2005, 08:00 AM
So Capers and Casserly have no clue what Ragone can do despite watching him for 3 years now, and he clearly isn't as good in practice as Carr, but secretly they harbor a fear that he actually will win games so they don't play him.

Welcome to the MB Mr. Stone. You obviously don't need a tour as you have already found Conspiracy LaLa Land.

This the third or fourth time Ragone has been brought up that some similair idea existed. I would buy the idea that Capers and casserly have misevaluated Ragone, but for some reason a good portion of fans can't through their head that if Ragone can't beat out a spare Tony Banks in three seasons he is closer to out of the league than challenging for the starting QB.

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 09:48 AM
Sims is a real head-case. I got to watch him at Texas. He played great so long as nobody was watching the game, but as soon as he got in a nationally-televised game, he lost his head. The pressure got to him and he would throw a bunch of interceptions. I was hoping that he would learn and grow in TB. I'm pretty sure that's what Gruden was thinking, too, but as much as I want the kid to succeed like his dad did, he's looking pretty bad. One good game does not cure everything. Let's see how he's doing after the next three or four.

Vinny
11-15-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm pretty sure that's what Gruden was thinking, too, but as much as I want the kid to succeed like his dad did, he's looking pretty bad. One good game does not cure everything. Let's see how he's doing after the next three or four.He's put up better #'s in his 3 career starts than some other QB I know about in his 50+ when it comes to leading his team to a victory

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 09:54 AM
True, but assuming Tampa ever took him to a playoff or "big game" - say MNF or something, history says he will nosedive big time.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 09:54 AM
I agree, but it is 20/20 backside vision. Heck, the whole state of Texas would have drafted Major Applewhite, let alone anyone else, over Simms if they were a GM.

I guess am the naysayer here. I was pissed we drafted Ragone when Simms was still on the board. There is no way I would have drafted Applewhite as an NFL QB.

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 09:56 AM
Applewhite had too many injuries. He had such a head for the game, though, that I hoped he would go into coaching or something.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 10:01 AM
Sims is a real head-case. I got to watch him at Texas. He played great so long as nobody was watching the game, but as soon as he got in a nationally-televised game, he lost his head. The pressure got to him and he would throw a bunch of interceptions. I was hoping that he would learn and grow in TB. I'm pretty sure that's what Gruden was thinking, too, but as much as I want the kid to succeed like his dad did, he's looking pretty bad. One good game does not cure everything. Let's see how he's doing after the next three or four.

The one game I blame Simms for was the 2001 Big 12 Championship Game against Colorado. That game lands squarely on his shoulders. However, I blame that game plan by Greg Davis for a lot of the problems we had. I would guess that approximately 50 percent of Chris Simms attempts were flat passes. They never threw the ball downfield. It was so aggravating. That is a key reason that Simms threw so many INT's run back for TD's. If you throw to the flats too much, you will get burned.

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 10:26 AM
I can see where you're going, but Simms went bust (through many interceptions) in games against Oklahoma, bowl appearances, everywhere. They never beat a top-10 team with Simms at the helm. Now Tampa needed 8 games before Simms could win. To me, that's a pattern. Simms was fine so long as he was playing teams nobody heard of or the Baylors of the world. He also had some really good games. But when I look at the whole package - I wouldn't want him at QB in a big game.

eriadoc
11-15-2005, 10:37 AM
I can see where you're going, but Simms went bust (through many interceptions) in games against Oklahoma, bowl appearances, everywhere. They never beat a top-10 team with Simms at the helm. Now Tampa needed 8 games before Simms could win. To me, that's a pattern. Simms was fine so long as he was playing teams nobody heard of or the Baylors of the world. He also had some really good games. But when I look at the whole package - I wouldn't want him at QB in a big game.

This was only Simms' third start this season, right? And he had one start last season? Am I missing something?

Honoring Earl 34
11-15-2005, 10:51 AM
:tomato: So is Ragone considered another blown pick ?

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 11:05 AM
I can see where you're going, but Simms went bust (through many interceptions) in games against Oklahoma, bowl appearances, everywhere. They never beat a top-10 team with Simms at the helm. Now Tampa needed 8 games before Simms could win. To me, that's a pattern. Simms was fine so long as he was playing teams nobody heard of or the Baylors of the world. He also had some really good games. But when I look at the whole package - I wouldn't want him at QB in a big game.

He looked pretty good against Washington on Sunday. That was a key game against a team that they are probably competing with for a wild card spot. And how many top 10 teams did the Horns play with Simms at the helm? OU twice? Applewhite and Young had far worse losses to OU than Simms. In fact, we were in both games in 2001 and 2002. Simms did throw 4 picks in one of those OU games, but if you go back and look, only 1 of the 4 was Simms fault. The other 3 were tipped balls by the receivers. IMO, that 2001 Big 12 Championship Game was his only horrible game. He had some other games that were subpar, but that was the only loss that falls squarely on his shoulders.

tsip
11-15-2005, 11:09 AM
Applewhite had too many injuries. He had such a head for the game, though, that I hoped he would go into coaching or something.

Out of college, Applewhite signed a free agent contract with the Pats but quickly returned the signing bonus and walked away--instead, he became an offensive Grad Asst at UT--now, he is the QB Coach at Syracuse

Double Barrel
11-15-2005, 11:13 AM
I am sorry, but this is a fan theory only that just doesn't hold up to reality. There is no way Casserly and Capers are going to blissfully be ridden out of town on a 2-14 season thinking man am I glad no one knows Ragone gave us a better chance to win some of those games. These guys are fighting for their jobs. I don't agree with how they are going about it, but I seriously doubt they are making any conscious decision which they feel gives them less of a chance of winning.

You're probably right, infantrycak, because I don't think this staff is smart enough for a conspiracy. ;)

However, I find it strange that the coaches are willing to bench two starters for bad play, fire a coordinator two games into a season, release proven veteran leadership in the off-season...but they won't bench Carr for even a moment. And he's clearly had opportunities that he should have been benched for the rest of the game. (Pick any point of the first six games that we never had a lead).

It's just strange coincidences, I'm sure. But maybe there is something to the theory that he's being "protected" from above... idonno:

Honoring Earl 34
11-15-2005, 11:19 AM
:texflag: You can't be on "I live for Sundays " commercials if your benched . The Texans have nobody else to market is the darkhorse in this race .

Double Barrel
11-15-2005, 11:31 AM
:texflag: You can't be on "I live for Sundays " commercials if your benched . The Texans have nobody else to market is the darkhorse in this race .

Or HEB commercials, for that matter! :rolleyes:

LOUD, PROUD, & TEXAN! :texflag:

See ya' on Sunday night! :texans:

Bullpen Drew
11-15-2005, 11:35 AM
In the NFL Europe, at least Ragone had an offensive line!!

I bet he doesn't want to play behind the Texans O line...he would be scared to death...

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 04:10 PM
Out of college, Applewhite signed a free agent contract with the Pats but quickly returned the signing bonus and walked away--instead, he became an offensive Grad Asst at UT--now, he is the QB Coach at Syracuse

Thanks for the info. I don't know how he is doing at Syracuse, but I think he will make a great coach.

Texans Horror
11-15-2005, 04:21 PM
He looked pretty good against Washington on Sunday. That was a key game against a team that they are probably competing with for a wild card spot. And how many top 10 teams did the Horns play with Simms at the helm? OU twice? Applewhite and Young had far worse losses to OU than Simms. In fact, we were in both games in 2001 and 2002. Simms did throw 4 picks in one of those OU games, but if you go back and look, only 1 of the 4 was Simms fault. The other 3 were tipped balls by the receivers. IMO, that 2001 Big 12 Championship Game was his only horrible game. He had some other games that were subpar, but that was the only loss that falls squarely on his shoulders.

He showed some real promise in the Tampa game. I would love to see him do well as Tampa's QB. I have been pleased to see so many Longhorns becoming top-rated players in the NFL. Unfortunately, I've lost my UT tapes, so I can't go back and look at those plays. I'll take your word for it. The blame can rarely be set on any one player, the Texans prove that week in and week out, but after a while you start to see a pattern. I think that is why Simms wasn't a first-rounder. Great ability, but questionable mentallity.

TheOgre
11-15-2005, 05:30 PM
The blame can rarely be set on any one player, the Texans prove that week in and week out, but after a while you start to see a pattern. I think that is why Simms wasn't a first-rounder. Great ability, but questionable mentallity.

I definitely have some reservations about him. I just think the criticism was overemphasized. I think that is key reason he slipped in the draft. The negative propaganda (for lack of a better phrase) surrounding the Applewhite and Simms situation nearly killed his career before it started.

I don't know if he will turn out to be a good QB. I just don't feel like he has been given a fair opportunity. I don't think Greg Davis handled him very well. I felt like Simms left UT basically the same as he arrived. I was beginning to feel the same way about Young until the mid-point of last season. I still don't like Greg Davis. I will have to see what he does with his next prospect to change my mind.

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2005, 05:39 PM
I definitely have some reservations about him. I just think the criticism was overemphasized. I think that is key reason he slipped in the draft. The negative propaganda (for lack of a better phrase) surrounding the Applewhite and Simms situation nearly killed his career before it started.

I don't know if he will turn out to be a good QB. I just don't feel like he has been given a fair opportunity. I don't think Greg Davis handled him very well. I felt like Simms left UT basically the same as he arrived. I was beginning to feel the same way about Young until the mid-point of last season. I still don't like Greg Davis. I will have to see what he does with his next prospect to change my mind.

Bingo on Greg Davis.