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CowboysTexansFan
11-12-2005, 12:10 PM
Does Jason Babin have the slowest spin move you've ever seen? If it's not the slowest I've ever seen, it's pretty close.

threetoedpete
11-12-2005, 12:16 PM
Does Jason Babin have the slowest spin move you've ever seen? If it's not the slowest I've ever seen, it's pretty close.

Babin seems to be always one step away doesn't he ? Waiting for the consumation with baited breath, lol.

CowboysTexansFan
11-12-2005, 12:18 PM
For a guy who is supposed to be a quick, athletic pass rusher, he sure is slow. He doesn't strike me as having good instincts, either.

Thanks, Charley, for wasting a bunch of high picks on this stiff.

ledzeppelin229
11-12-2005, 02:06 PM
Well, he wasn't a LB in college so as far as LB instincts I don't think he's doing so bad. He seems to have the athleticism but its true his spin move doesn't seem to be getting it done.

angeltexus
11-12-2005, 02:55 PM
maybe his tatoos are slowing him down. Nah! just slow period..

Davis37
11-12-2005, 04:31 PM
what he does isnt even a spin move... its a 180 then he runs into the lineman backwards. Maybe hes trying to get a block in the back penalty or somethin... w/e it is it doesnt work

Double Barrel
11-12-2005, 10:00 PM
I think he's still learning the position. Becoming a LB in the NFL is not something you just master overnight.

mean mark8
11-12-2005, 10:25 PM
I think he's still learning the position. Becoming a LB in the NFL is not something you just master overnight.

Yeah, that Ware kid for the Cowboys is havin' a hard time.:sarcasm:

YoungTexanFan
11-12-2005, 10:25 PM
I think he's still learning the position. Becoming a LB in the NFL is not something you just master overnight.

true, imagine drafting a dominant player from college (babin) to play the position he excelled at? yes, he is undersized, but so are both colts DE's and many others. Talent gets to the qb before size.

mean mark8
11-12-2005, 10:41 PM
true, imagine drafting a dominant player from college (babin) to play the position he excelled at? yes, he is undersized, but so are both colts DE's and many others. Talent gets to the qb before size.

I'm sorry but this flies in the face of everything the Texans do with talent. We draft DEs to play LB. We take OLBs and make them inside LBs. We take ILBs and make them OLBs. We take DTs and make them DEs. We take college QBs and make them safeties. We take CBs and make them FSs. We take college FSs and make them SSs. We take OGs and make them OCs. We take other OGs and make them OTs. We take RTs and make them LTs. We take DE/DTs and make them FBs.

We do all of this while letting our starters leave without getting any compensation for them. We let other players go that couldn't play on our squad and watch them become All-Pro the next year. We trade away draft picks for "project" players. Apparently we're just smarter than everybody else.:sarcasm:

YoungTexanFan
11-12-2005, 10:45 PM
I'm sorry but this flies in the face of everything the Texans do with talent. We draft DEs to play LB. We take OLBs and make them inside LBs. We take ILBs and make them OLBs. We take DTs and make them DEs. We take college QBs and make them safeties. We take CBs and make them FSs. We take college FSs and make them SSs. We take OGs and make them OCs. We take other OGs and make them OTs. We take RTs and make them LTs. We take DE/DTs and make them FBs.

We do all of this while letting our starters leave without getting any compensation for them. We let other players go that couldn't play on our squad and watch them become All-Pro the next year. We trade away draft picks for "project" players. Apparently we're just smarter than everybody else.

your first line made it sound like you were going to bash me, but the rest seemed to support me...im just going to assume you wanted to support my veiw...ok?

Double Barrel
11-12-2005, 11:14 PM
Talent gets to the qb before size.

True...but only if the play the coaches pick ever allows it. ;) We don't have a very aggressive defensive scheme. The 3-4/cover 2 seems like a prevent defense most of the time to me. (well, not quite as bad as a true prevent, but there are some striking similarities in between the two regarding the soft coverage and lack of pressure on the pocket)

texan279
11-12-2005, 11:28 PM
In 2004 Babin was 5th on the team in total tackles with 63, 2nd on the team with 4 sacks, was 2nd on the team with 2 fumble recoveries, and had 4 passes defended. Not bad for a rookie who played DE in college and came to the NFL and started his first season at OLB. As far as this season, he has been playing with a shoulder injury. It seems that some here are ready to get down on players who don't become instant superstars. It takes time for an NFL player to develop, even if he is a high draft choice. It's not Babin's fault as far as what CC and the front office gave up to bring him here.

touttail
11-13-2005, 09:44 AM
Yeah, that Ware kid for the Cowboys is havin' a hard time.:sarcasm:

These are in the top 50 Linebackers per NFL.com stats
==============GP/Int./TD/FF/FRec/Sacks/Tackles/Pass Def/NFL Exp/Rank
J Vilma/NYJ--------8--1---0--1---1-----0------36------3-------2-----2
D Williams/Atl------8--1---0--0---0-----3------38------2-------2-----9
K Morrison/Oak-----8--0---0--0---1----0------33------1-------R-----13
M Greenwood/Hou--8--0---0--1---0----0------27------3-------5-----19
D Johnson/KC------8--0---0--2---1----1------42------1-------R-----22
L Tatupu/Sea------8--1---0--0---0----2------34------1-------R-----30
O Thurman/ Cin----9--4---1--2---0----1------37------2-------R-----31
K Dansby/Arz------8--2---1--2---1----3------32------1-------2-----34
D Smith/Jax-------8--1---0--1---0-----2------33-----0-------2-----42
C Bockwoldt/NO---9--0---0--0---0-----0------20-----1-------2-----46
C Crowder/Mia----8--0---0--1---1------0------20-----1-------R-----47

D Ware/Dal-------8--0---0--0--0------4------18------1-------R-----98

Ex-Texan
J Sharper/Sea----8--0---0---1--0-----0-------17-----0-------9------63

Other Texans
K Wong/Hou------5--0---0---0--0-----1-------18-----0-------7------74
D Polk/Hou-------8--0---0---1--0-----1--------15----0-------6------77
A Peek/Hou------8--0---0---1--1-----2--------11----1-------3------115
S Orr//Hou------8--0---0---1--0-----1---------11----1-------3------124
C Anderson/Hou-8--0---0---0--0-----1----------6----2-------2------139
J Babin/Hou-----4--0---0---0--0-----0----------3----0-------2------150
T Evans/Hou----8--1---0---0--0-----0----------5----1-------4------158


bobby 119C

ArlingtonTexan
11-13-2005, 09:50 AM
These are in the top 50 Linebackers per NFL.com stats
==============GP/Int./TD/FF/FRec/Sacks/Tackles/Pass Def/NFL Exp/Rank
J Vilma/NYJ--------8--1---0--1---1-----0------36------3-------2-----2
D Williams/Atl------8--1---0--0---0-----3------38------2-------2-----9
K Morrison/Oak-----8--0---0--0---1----0------33------1-------R-----13
M Greenwood/Hou--8--0---0--1---0----0------27------3-------5-----19
D Johnson/KC------8--0---0--2---1----1------42------1-------R-----22
L Tatupu/Sea------8--1---0--0---0----2------34------1-------R-----30
O Thurman/ Cin----9--4---1--2---0----1------37------2-------R-----31
K Dansby/Arz------8--2---1--2---1----3------32------1-------2-----34
D Smith/Jax-------8--1---0--1---0-----2------33-----0-------2-----42
C Bockwoldt/NO---9--0---0--0---0-----0------20-----1-------2-----46
C Crowder/Mia----8--0---0--1---1------0------20-----1-------R-----47

D Ware/Dal-------8--0---0--0--0------4------18------1-------R-----98

Ex-Texan
J Sharper/Sea----8--0---0---1--0-----0-------17-----0-------9------63

Other Texans
K Wong/Hou------5--0---0---0--0-----1-------18-----0-------7------74
D Polk/Hou-------8--0---0---1--0-----1--------15----0-------6------77
A Peek/Hou------8--0---0---1--1-----2--------11----1-------3------115
S Orr//Hou------8--0---0---1--0-----1---------11----1-------3------124
C Anderson/Hou-8--0---0---0--0-----1----------6----2-------2------139
J Babin/Hou-----4--0---0---0--0-----0----------3----0-------2------150
T Evans/Hou----8--1---0---0--0-----0----------5----1-------4------158


bobby 119C

If I am reading this correctly, Ware has 4 sacks which would put him on pace for 8 sacks over the course the season, while not all-pro pretty solid for a 1st year guy making the switch to 3-4 OLB.

touttail
11-13-2005, 10:07 AM
If I am reading this correctly, Ware has 4 sacks which would put him on pace for 8 sacks over the course the season, while not all-pro pretty solid for a 1st year guy making the switch to 3-4 OLB.

You bet 4 sacks, 18 tackles, and 1 pass deflection is a great start for a rookie LB.
He is more of a pass rusher than a defender(speed maybe?) or his interceptions would be at least 1 or 2.

Got these stats from NFL.com linebackers, you did read it correctly!

bobby 119C

Vinny
11-13-2005, 10:09 AM
You bet 8 sacks and 1 pass deflection is a great start for a rookie LB.
He is more of a pass rusher than a defender(speed maybe?) or his interceptions would be at least 1 or 2.

Got these stats from NFL.com linebackers, you did read it correctly!

bobby 119CHistorically 3-4 edge tweeners don't have many picks anyway....most of them are dedicated pass rushers who only occassionally back off into coverages. It takes about 3 years to convert fully before these guys reach their potential if you look at teams like the Steelers and from other 3-4 teams in the past.

WildBlackBear32
11-13-2005, 10:21 AM
If I am reading this correctly, Ware has 4 sacks which would put him on pace for 8 sacks over the course the season, while not all-pro pretty solid for a 1st year guy making the switch to 3-4 OLB.


Shawne Merriman already has 5 sacks in San Diego and he only became a starter 3 weeks ago.

nunusguy
11-13-2005, 10:30 AM
You bet 4 sacks, 18 tackles, and 1 pass deflection is a great start for a rookie LB.
He is more of a pass rusher than a defender(speed maybe?) or his interceptions would be at least 1 or 2.
Got these stats from NFL.com linebackers, you did read it correctly!
bobby 119C
The Cowboys got a good one, but passed on a better one - Merriman with the
Chargers is ahead in sacks and is a simply awesome player. But Babin was
a late 1st rounder (I won't get into the price we paid the Titans for that pick), while Ware is nearly a top 10 pick (#12), so you'd expect a better
talent from such a much higher pick.

Vinny
11-13-2005, 10:32 AM
Shawne Merriman already has 5 sacks in San Diego and he only became a starter 3 weeks ago.He looks special...but remember that Steve Foley couldn't sack groceries when he was here and went to the Pro Bowl with the Chargers. Wade Phillips knows how to use his tweeners...I'm not sure Fangio does. I'm not making a case for Babin either since he looks better vs the run than he does as a pass rusher. He has been a bit dissapointing in that area so far, but then again, Fangio coaches him too.

WildBlackBear32
11-13-2005, 10:34 AM
The Cowboys got a good one, but passed on a better one - Merriman with the
Chargers is ahead in sacks and is a simply awesome player. But Babin was
a late 1st rounder (I won't get into the price we paid the Titans for that pick), while Ware is nearly a top 10 pick (#12), so you'd expect a better
talent from such a much higher pick.

Ware was also called a reach by a lot of people, myself included. I personally had him as the third best OLB(regardless of scheme) with Merriman and DJ ranked ahead of him(in that order). Ware was looked at as a late-mid to late first round pick.

ArlingtonTexan
11-13-2005, 10:34 AM
Shawne Merriman already has 5 sacks in San Diego and he only became a starter 3 weeks ago.

think this goes more to the point that really good pass rusher probably just have gift even when the rest of their game needs development.

nunusguy
11-13-2005, 10:43 AM
think this goes more to the point that really good pass rusher probably just have gift even when the rest of their game needs development.
Yup. The really good ones are effective from a 4-3 DE position or 3-4 OLB position, in spite of any shortcomings that may exist with other aspects of their game.
Look at the guy with the Colts, not Freeney but the other DE. He's what 235 and a DE in a 4-3, but he's still an effective pass rusher. And most of us by now have serious reservations about Babin's ability as pass rusher, from any defensive format, to be that kind of pass rusher.

Vinny
11-13-2005, 10:45 AM
Yup. The really good ones are effective from a 4-3 DE position or 3-4 OLB position, in spite of any shortcomings that may exist with other aspects of their game.
Look at the guy with the Colts, not Freeney but the other DE. He's what 235 and a DE in a 4-3, but he's still an effective pass rusher. And most of us by now have serious reservations about Babin's ability as pass rusher, from any defensive format, to be that kind of pass rusher. I can get on board with that....Which brings us to why we are a bad team. Julius Peppers didn't fit our system but Jason Babin did.

WildBlackBear32
11-13-2005, 10:53 AM
Yup. The really good ones are effective from a 4-3 DE position or 3-4 OLB position, in spite of any shortcomings that may exist with other aspects of their game.
Look at the guy with the Colts, not Freeney but the other DE. He's what 235 and a DE in a 4-3, but he's still an effective pass rusher. And most of us by now have serious reservations about Babin's ability as pass rusher, from any defensive format, to be that kind of pass rusher.

To be fair, Indy has one of if not the best D-Lines in the league. So Mathis benefits there.Triplett is highly underrated for what he has done the last couple years. They brought in big boy Corey Simon to clog...A LOT. Brock had 6.5 sacks last year. Mathis had 10.5, so this year shouldnt be much of a suprise. I havent even gotten to Freeney yet.

Texan Gal 312
11-13-2005, 11:41 AM
He looks special...but remember that Steve Foley couldn't sack groceries when he was here and went to the Pro Bowl with the Chargers. Wade Phillips knows how to use his tweeners...I'm not sure Fangio does. I'm not making a case for Babin either since he looks better vs the run than he does as a pass rusher. He has been a bit dissapointing in that area so far, but then again, Fangio coaches him too.

Good Point ! I think Babin has talent but our defensive coaches are awful. Capers downfall is going to be he has stuck with too many of his "buddys" for coaches instead of bringing in someone else.

On the offensive side of the ball Palmer would have been good except it appears Dom would not let Palmer run the offense and instead handcuffed him and then brought in his "buddy" Pendry. All of talk of getting on the same page started shortly after Pendry came on board. -I digress - bottom line is we need new coaches before we give up on the likes of Babin.

touttail
11-13-2005, 04:49 PM
Shawne Merriman already has 5 sacks in San Diego and he only became a starter 3 weeks ago.

Shawne Merriman SD/Rookie played in 8 games, 2 forced fumbles, 2 pass def, 5 sacks, 18 tackles, ranked 98. He too is having a good year!

bobby 119C

Coach C.
11-13-2005, 04:53 PM
Babin is not an outside rusher. He should be in the middle like Brusci. Not sure he is that smart, but he is athletic enough and good enough against the run to pile up 100+ tackles and a couple of sacks at ILB

rmartin65
11-13-2005, 05:12 PM
Babin is not an outside rusher. He should be in the middle like Brusci. Not sure he is that smart, but he is athletic enough and good enough against the run to pile up 100+ tackles and a couple of sacks at ILB
Thats a good idea. His spin move is way to slow for an OLB.

Co E-Z
11-13-2005, 05:44 PM
what he does isnt even a spin move... its a 180 then he runs into the lineman backwards. Maybe hes trying to get a block in the back penalty or somethin... w/e it is it doesnt work


lol: Thats exactly what it looks like!

Co E-Z
11-13-2005, 05:50 PM
Well, he wasn't a LB in college so as far as LB instincts I don't think he's doing so bad. He seems to have the athleticism but its true his spin move doesn't seem to be getting it done.

Athleticism?? Everything about the way he moves screams I AM TOO STIFF! The guy cant change directions to save his life, and he needs about 5-6 strides to get to full speed.

kenneth24
11-13-2005, 05:50 PM
Good Point ! I think Babin has talent but our defensive coaches are awful. Capers downfall is going to be he has stuck with too many of his "buddys" for coaches instead of bringing in someone else.

On the offensive side of the ball Palmer would have been good except it appears Dom would not let Palmer run the offense and instead handcuffed him and then brought in his "buddy" Pendry. All of talk of getting on the same page started shortly after Pendry came on board. -I digress - bottom line is we need new coaches before we give up on the likes of Babin.
Exactly! Fangio was fired in Indy and was hired here. How can players come here and suck and go elsewhere and play well. Coaching and their philosophies!

College Texan
11-13-2005, 06:29 PM
Let me compare Babin for a minute with the patriots...Vrabel. In a few years, maybe 2-3 more, I think that he can develope into this type of player with the right caoching. I would keep him around cause I would really hate to trade him or see him go to a team like the patriots, whom I think will make him better than what he is here.

Cincinnatikid
11-13-2005, 07:15 PM
I have finally figured out what babins real problem is. I was in indy this weekend and saw him walking in the hotel. THe guy is pigeon toed and his knees rub together. The guy has to have some sort of balance problems just from watching him walk. he has a natural knee buckle going already to help olinemen