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Runner
11-09-2005, 06:13 AM
The Chronicle reports that Capers said Pitts will stay at LT this week, which thrusts Fred Weary into starting line-up. Weary is the only guy I know who has been deeper in the doghouse than Wand, so that should be interesting. They are evaluating some combination of Wade, Brown, McKinney, Weary, Pitts as being stronger than Wade, Brown, McKinney, Pitts, Wand.

I think the first line-up above will be far less capable at run blocking, and we'll be doing a lot of running Sunday. Pitts may have his hands fulls with Freeney since he probably won't have a guard available to double team on pass blocking, because I think that middle will be overmatched on their own.

This will leave Breuner to double team with Pitts and Wade left alone, or vice versa. If the decision is to use Breuner as a full time blocker (as opposed to blocking and releasing) on many plays then maybe the coaches will go "way out there" and use Wand as tight end on those plays. 6 offensive lineman would give us a chance to contain their rush. It should be pretty awesome in run blocking too.

aj.
11-09-2005, 06:49 AM
Wiegert was upgraded a bit early this week (to questionable) so if he can go, they would probably shift Milford to left guard and put McKinney at C.

If Wiegert can't go, and Hodgdon and Washington are both out, then it seems that the only combination at C and LG is McKinney - Weary or vice versa, but there's also the Wand at guard thing hanging out there... I doubt if he's had reps at G since training camp though.

Runner
11-09-2005, 08:12 AM
Wiegert was upgraded a bit early this week (to questionable) so if he can go, they would probably shift Milford to left guard and put McKinney at C.

If Wiegert can't go, and Hodgdon and Washington are both out, then it seems that the only combination at C and LG is McKinney - Weary or vice versa, but there's also the Wand at guard thing hanging out there... I doubt if he's had reps at G since training camp though.

I don't think Wand at guard works, but who knows given the spate of injuries.

You would think Weigert has got to get better soon though. I was also kind of surprised that Hodgdon's injury has turned out as bad as it is.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 08:44 AM
I don't think Wand at guard works, but who knows given the spate of injuries.

Missed off-season opportunities aside, IMO for now Pitts needs to stay at LT. Wand's primary problem is speed rushers breaking around the outside edge. Pitts cannot assist him with that from the LG position. On the other hand, with Pitts soloing outside contain (with occasional TE or RB assistance), whatever combination (McKinney & Hodg before or Wand/Weary & McKinney now) can generally double someone on the inside. With Pitts in the middle you have the strongest of any three man combo assisting in a double leaving someone weaker solo.

Runner
11-09-2005, 09:01 AM
Missed off-season opportunities aside, IMO for now Pitts needs to stay at LT. Wand's primary problem is speed rushers breaking around the outside edge. Pitts cannot assist him with that from the LG position. On the other hand, with Pitts soloing outside contain (with occasional TE or RB assistance), whatever combination (McKinney & Hodg before or Wand/Weary & McKinney now) can generally double someone on the inside. With Pitts in the middle you have the strongest of any three man combo assisting in a double leaving someone weaker solo.


Last Indy game they used McKinney/Pitts on Freeney. I think they have to change from this guard/tackle scheme to tackle/tight end. As you said, they may have to ask Chester to step up and do a lot of 1 on 1 blocking too.

I think these are the combos Pendry will look at this week: Brown/McKinney/Weary or Brown/Weary/McKinney. The first moves Steve back to center, where he doesn't seem to be as effective as at guard. The second puts our two weakest (in skill/experience) lineman next to each other. To me, both are cause for worry. Pendry may try to move Wand into that inside mix, but I'm not sure he will or if Wand would be effective. I'm also skeptical if Riley would be any better at guard than at tackle. They are definitely trying to find the least of several evils when building the inside of the line with Pitts at tackle.

The problem is, every one of the Colts front 4 are dangerous pass rushers - the inside guys frequently get good push. With their two excellent ends (against anybody) and their above average tackles (against our bailing wire and duct tape middle) it could be a very long day. I think the tight end is going to see a lot of time as the "sixth lineman" to address this problem.

This will be a nice sub plot to watch.

nunusguy
11-09-2005, 09:32 AM
Pitts may have his hands fulls with Freeney
Everybody this side of Orlando Pace needs help with Freeney. In the Monday night game the rookie LT for the Pats not only got TE help on his side, but
they had a back deployed as a wing back so they could triple team Freeney
in some situations. Of course there's a big down side with this stradegy -
"twinkle toes" Todd is left on the right side all by his lonesome with the other lightning fast Colts edge rusher Mathis. And up there in the friendly confines
of the loud dome stadium in Indy. What ever they are paying Carr, he's gonna earn this weekend. Ain't gonna be pretty.

Runner
11-09-2005, 09:41 AM
Everybody this side of Orlando Pace needs help with Freeney. In the Monday night game the rookie LT for the Pats not only got TE help on his side, but
they had a back deployed as a wing back so they could triple team Freeney
in some situations. Of course there's a big down side with this stradegy -
"twinkle toes" Todd is left on the right side all by his lonesome with the other lightning fast Colts edge rusher Mathis. And up there in the friendly confines
of the loud dome stadium in Indy. What ever they are paying Carr, he's gonna earn this weekend. Ain't gonna be pretty.

I didn't mean to imply that others don't need help with Freeney. I even made that same point about how the Patriots blocked Freeney last year after our Colts games. My point was that given the state of the state of the rest of the, from Wade through left guard, that help may not be available to Pitts.

I've only seen two people go against Freeney 1 on 1 for an entire game. Orlando Pace and Seth Wand last year. Go figure. Sometimes our coaching logic escapes me.

nunusguy
11-09-2005, 09:41 AM
I was also kind of surprised that Hodgdon's injury has turned out as bad as it is.
As promising as Hodgdon appears to be at this point, much like Jerome Mathis
he spends a lot of time on the sidelines because of injuries. And of course that's worrisome. Besides this injury he just suffered Sunday, he was out for
several games at the begining of the year due to injury.

Runner
11-09-2005, 09:45 AM
As promising as Hodgdon appears to be at this point, much like Jerome Mathis
he spends a lot of time on the sidelines because of injuries. And of course that's worrisome. Besides this injury he just suffered Sunday, he was out for
several games at the begining of the year due to injury.

True. I also wonder how much of the improvement Hodgdon is credited for was due to McKinney being at guard rather than center.

Time will tell on these issues.

Texas
11-09-2005, 09:57 AM
So in yalls opinion what would our best O-Line combo be

Runner
11-09-2005, 10:09 AM
So in yalls opinion what would our best O-Line combo be

That's tough right now. I'd be tempted to try:

Wand, Brown, Weary, Weigert, Pitts because Wand could play RT without help, leaving a tight end available to help Pitts and the 3 on the inside to block 2.

Or I might admit that the injuries have left us a complete mess, take a flyer, and say:
Wade, Brown, Weary, Weigert, Pitts, Wand (tight end). This would give us lots of opportunity for double teams where needed, and have the added bonus of having very good run blocking on the left side. It's not like Breuner would catch a lot of passes anyway if he was at TE.

Fire away - but then post your line-up.

Runner
11-09-2005, 10:23 AM
That's tough right now. I'd be tempted to try:

Wand, Brown, Weary, Weigert, Pitts because Wand could play RT without help, leaving a tight end available to help Pitts and the 3 on the inside to block 2.

Or I might admit that the injuries have left us a complete mess, take a flyer, and say:
Wade, Brown, Weary, Weigert, Pitts, Wand (tight end). This would give us lots of opportunity for double teams where needed, and have the added bonus of having very good run blocking on the left side. It's not like Breuner would catch a lot of passes anyway if he was at TE.

Fire away - but then post your line-up.

For clarity, my preferred line-up is:

Wade, Brown, Weigert, Pitts, Wand and run the double teaming scheme they used last time against Indy, but this has been ruled out by Capers saying that Pitts will remain at LT.

Next is the Wand at TE end line-up. Last is Replace Wade with Wand.

Texans Horror
11-09-2005, 10:27 AM
I'm not worried about the left side so much as the right. Mathis is going to tear Wade/Brown to pieces.

F-minus67
11-09-2005, 11:08 AM
It seems that the best line up they've tried in the past two years is

LT - Pitts
LG - McKinney
C - Hodgdon
RG - Brown
RT - Wade

It seems that if Weigert can play he would be an upgrade over Brown, and Brown would be a good back up at either guard position.

Ibar_Harry
11-09-2005, 11:40 AM
I have always said Wand, Wiegert, Hodgdon, Pitts, Wade. The one thing you do not want is McKinney playing center. However, injuries may require him to play that position. Remember, a year go Wand held his own against Feeney. I think Wand is simply an under developed player as a result of this coaching staff. In the above line I would like Washington to play center if Hodgdon can't. That way you surround your rookies with experience. I still say Pitts has an ego problem and doesn't work well with Wand. Wiegert is a team leader and would work well with Want in my estimation. This is one of those gut feel things based on watching people in interact. Remember, its not the BEST ATHLETES, its what is the most effective combination on the field. I'm always bothered by the Capers montra about the best athletes. Some people just seem to be at the right place at the right time despite their athletic ability. I think we have all seen examples of that.

Runner
11-09-2005, 12:03 PM
It seems that the best line up they've tried in the past two years is

LT - Pitts
LG - McKinney
C - Hodgdon
RG - Brown
RT - Wade

It seems that if Weigert can play he would be an upgrade over Brown, and Brown would be a good back up at either guard position.

We're assuming Hodgdon, Weigert and Washington remain unavailable for the purpose of this discussion. Therein lies the problem.

Grid
11-09-2005, 04:02 PM
Id like to see Wand Wade Hodgdon McKinney Pitts

I think that could possibly be our strongest setup. But can wade play RG? if not.. Wiegert at RG instead of Wade. If Wand cant handle RT, then put Wade in at RT and Wiegert at RG.

course that isnt possible this week.. but thats the change id like to see when it is possible.

Johnny Utah
11-09-2005, 04:11 PM
Marc Vandermeer on 610am just said that Jerry Deloach is getting some reps at the O-line position. LOL!! We suck! :crying:

Runner
11-09-2005, 05:25 PM
Marc Vandermeer on 610am just said that Jerry Deloach is getting some reps at the O-line position. LOL!! We suck! :crying:

I heard that too, and I hope I'm reading too much into it, but:

I think that says a lot about our coaching staff. They have had many of these o-linemen for 2-3 years, and they think we need to see if a d-lineman would be an improvement? They generally dress 7 lineman I think; they could dress Riley, Wand, Wade, Brown, McKinney, Weary, Pitts.

In their defense, I guess they may be thin at tight end; in that case maybe they want to have one more "o-lineman" as an emergency in case Wand has to act as a back-up TE as well as tackle.

If DeLoach is anything more than an emergency player on offense, this coaching staff is demonstrating that it is inept at helping it's players stay at the level they were when they got here, much less helping them improve. If DeLoach plays in front of a real, uninjured o-lineman the coaching staff may as well wave a flag saying they are incompetent.

mean mark8
11-09-2005, 05:44 PM
Please just don't play Weary. He is a wide-open faucet through which any defense plunges.

texasguy346
11-09-2005, 09:00 PM
Marc Vandermeer on 610am just said that Jerry Deloach is getting some reps at the O-line position.

I think I'm going to be sick

Vinny
11-09-2005, 09:49 PM
I think I'm going to be sickI won't tell you that Hodgdon is likely lost for the year then.

ledzeppelin229
11-09-2005, 09:52 PM
I won't tell you that Hodgdon is likely lost for the year then.

April Fools..?

Is it a tear?

Vinny
11-09-2005, 09:55 PM
I wish it was April Led. Dom said that he is out getting a second opinion and he may be lost for the year.

ledzeppelin229
11-09-2005, 10:02 PM
I wish it was April Led. Dom said that he is out getting a second opinion and he may be lost for the year.

Man, things definitely aren't going Houston's way when it comes to injuries this season. I think a lot of people have overlooked it since they've been so bad since the beginning, but having Babin, Wong, AJ, Wiegert, and now Hodgdon hurt isn't helping any.

TEXANS84
11-09-2005, 11:53 PM
Please just don't play Weary. He is a wide-open faucet through which any defense plunges.

Unfortunatley I'm going to have to agree with you there. I watched Weary during training camp in the one on one drills. He was the lineman that was taken the most, especially by a spin move.

I pray that he's made improvement over the past few months, otherwise things are going to get worse.

rittenhouserobz
11-10-2005, 06:10 AM
Does anyone feel like Dom Capers is Dr. Frankenstein and Pendry is Igor his assistant? These guys are experimenting weekly. If you have ever made Jello then you that once it starts to set if you stir it it is ruined. Why can't these guys get that?

Texans Horror
11-10-2005, 07:51 AM
I am happy with them playing mad scientist to find out what works best. I don't think it will make anything worse than it already is, and if they can find a better fit, more power to them. I can play O-line musical chairs all season long.

Runner
11-10-2005, 08:11 AM
Does anyone feel like Dom Capers is Dr. Frankenstein and Pendry is Igor his assistant? These guys are experimenting weekly. If you have ever made Jello then you that once it starts to set if you stir it it is ruined. Why can't these guys get that?

I'd also buy experimenting weakly.

Marcus
11-10-2005, 01:57 PM
Let me get something straight here. Maybe I misunderstood what some of you were getting at earlier.

Do I have it correct that some of you are saying that Wand would do a better job against Freeney than Pitts?

Ibar_Harry
11-10-2005, 02:06 PM
Let me get something straight here. Maybe I misunderstood what some of you were getting at earlier.

Do I have it correct that some of you are saying that Wand would do a better job against Freeney than Pitts?

Possibly based on a year ago. Wand held is own a year ago against Feeney. The problem is Wand has had his ego trampled on by this coaching staff, most notablily, PENDRY the god father of our bad O-line.

Runner
11-10-2005, 02:13 PM
Let me get something straight here. Maybe I misunderstood what some of you were getting at earlier.

Do I have it correct that some of you are saying that Wand would do a better job against Freeney than Pitts?

I would say that because of injuries and since they are going to double team anyway, Wand/Bruener would be similar enough to Pitts/Bruener that it might make more sense to have Pitts shore up the middle instead of playing Weary. The problem is that all 4 of the Colts defensive line are dangerous rushers.

Also remember that last year Wand was assigned to block Freeney one on one. In the first game I think he gave up 0 sacks and in the second game he gave up 3. (That was from memory, I might be wrong). When Pitts was assigned Freeney two weeks ago he got constant help: from McKinney usually, the running back sometimes, and both on occasion. I don't think Pitts can stand up to Freeney one on one any better than Wand did.

Against the Seahawks, Pitts first game at LT this year, he got a lot of help from Breuner, to the point Pitts was PO'd about it because he thought he didn't need the help.

Finally, last year we generally blamed all sacks on the o-line and this year we've learned better (as posters). Evaluating Wand's last year's performance to this year's standards might change some opinions of him. After all, the only change we made to the o-line at the start of the year was to replace Wand, and after 3 games we were on pace to give up 106 sacks. The fact is, the line was better last year.


Edited to add:

Wand was not at his best last week - he hasn't had a practice snap at left tackle with the first team since training camp. Given a game or two to get back in the swing and real practice time, he'd be OK. Last year and last week they ran well behind the combination of Pitts/Wand. Since we're a running team that is pretty important too.

Ibar_Harry
11-10-2005, 02:18 PM
I would say that because of injuries and since they are going to double team anyway, Wand/Bruener would be similar enough to Pitts/Bruener that it might make more sense to have Pitts shore up the middle instead of playing Weary. The problem is that all 4 of the Colts defensive line are dangerous rushers.

Also remember that last year Wand was assigned to block Freeney one on one. In the first game I think he gave up 0 sacks and in the second game he gave up 3. (That was from memory, I might be wrong). When Pitts was assigned Freeney two weeks ago he got constant help: from McKinney usually, the running back sometimes, and both on occasion. I don't think Pitts can stand up to Freeney one on one any better than Wand did.

Against the Seahawks, Pitts first game at LT this year, he got a lot of help from Breuner, to the point Pitts was PO'd about it because he thought he didn't need the help.

Finally, last year we generally blamed all sacks on the o-line and this year we've learned better (as posters). Evaluating Wand's last year's performance to this year's standards might change some opinions of him. After all, the only change we made to the o-line at the start of the year was to replace Wand, and after 3 games we were on pace to give up 106 sacks. The fact is, the line was better last year.

Excellent post and its like I point out the change from year 2 to 3 was the Zone blocking scheme and everything fell apart. Who is the originator of all of this - Pendry. Gee, could there be a correlation. I just couldn't help myself, because its just such horrific to have to deal with this kind of incompetence weak after weak and they did promote incompetence in this case..........

Ibar_Harry
11-10-2005, 02:23 PM
Excellent post and its like I point out the change from year 2 to 3 was the Zone blocking scheme and everything fell apart. Who is the originator of all of this - Pendry. Gee, could there be a correlation. I just couldn't help myself, because its just such horrific to have to deal with this kind of incompetence weak after weak and they did promote incompetence in this case..........

In fact I will even go one step further and say may be CAPER's problems all stem from his reliance on PENDRY. Is that possibly the real problem? Has Pendry been the problem all along including getting Palmer Canned when it was Pendry's O-line that was the cause of the problems. Some of the people view Pendry as the great savior, perhaps he's the devil in disguise.......

Marcus
11-10-2005, 02:30 PM
I'll just say that I remember watching both Colts games last year, and the thing that stood out beyond anything else, was that Freeney's quickness exposed Wand for what he will never be. He is simply to slow to play Left Tackle.

In this weeks game, I don't want to see a double team against Freeney. I want to see what Pitts can do against Freeney one on one.

Pitts stated on the radio last night that he wants to be the Texans long term answer to Left Tackle. Here's your chance, Chester. Prove to me that they don't need D'Brickashaw.

Texans Horror
11-10-2005, 02:40 PM
In fact I will even go one step further and say may be CAPER's problems all stem from his reliance on PENDRY. Is that possibly the real problem? Has Pendry been the problem all along including getting Palmer Canned when it was Pendry's O-line that was the cause of the problems. Some of the people view Pendry as the great savior, perhaps he's the devil in disguise.......

I didn't want to get jumped back over the bye week for saying that firing Palmer was wrong, so I kept my mouth shut. Pendry ruined the line, and it's clear he's ruining the offense, too. He's got players shouting at him, and his philosophy is very run, run, sack, punt.

Runner
11-10-2005, 03:03 PM
In this weeks game, I don't want to see a double team against Freeney. I want to see what Pitts can do against Freeney one on one.



That would be interesting to see; it is an opportunity for Pitts to show what he has against the best. Very few people across the league face Freeney by themselves.

If Pitts is at LT this week as it appears he will be, I don't know what choice the coaches have but to have him go one on one. Wade needs help against Mathis, and I think it'll take all three of our interior lineman to handle the Colts' defensive tackles. I just don't think the coaching staff will do it though.

This is just a bad time for us to have injuries on the line.

Ibar_Harry
11-10-2005, 03:03 PM
I'll just say that I remember watching both Colts games last year, and the thing that stood out beyond anything else, was that Freeney's quickness exposed Wand for what he will never be. He is simply to slow to play Left Tackle.

In this weeks game, I don't want to see a double team against Freeney. I want to see what Pitts can do against Freeney one on one.

Pitts stated on the radio last night that he wants to be the Texans long term answer to Left Tackle. Here's your chance, Chester. Prove to me that they don't need D'Brickashaw.

Marcus I'm not going to disagree with what Pitts stated, because that's been his goal all along and that's why I have said that I wanted him on the right side in the best interest of the team. I'm going to take Mr B's evaluation of what Wand can be over Pitts. I think Pitts is very mistake prone and doesn't fit there as well as at the guard position. I firmly believe he has hampered the development of Wand, but that is my belief and you have yours and that's fair. Opinions make for a board like this one.

infantrycak
11-10-2005, 03:13 PM
Possibly based on a year ago. Wand held is own a year ago against Feeney. The problem is Wand has had his ego trampled on by this coaching staff, most notablily, PENDRY the god father of our bad O-line.

IMO the coaches yanked the plug on Wand too quick in favor of Riley, but Wand got lit up like a pinball machine last year by Freeney. He didn't give up any sacks in one of the games, but he was constantly collapsed into the pocket such that Mathis' 3 sacks in that game were largely due to Freeney. In the 2nd game Freeney got 3 sacks. Pitts gave up 1 sack over two games in 2003 to Freeney.

I think Pitts is very mistake prone and doesn't fit there as well as at the guard position.

Just curious, is this from actually watching Pitts in the last few games?

Runner
11-10-2005, 03:15 PM
I'll just say that I remember watching both Colts games last year, and the thing that stood out beyond anything else, was that Freeney's quickness exposed Wand for what he will never be. He is simply to slow to play Left Tackle.



Freeney's quickness has exposed many of the best LTs in the entire league. The only person I've seen handle him is Pace.

Ibar_Harry
11-10-2005, 03:27 PM
Freeney's quickness has exposed many of the best LTs in the entire league. The only person I've seen handle him is Pace.

That was fun to watch too. One of the highlights of that game. Showed why Pace is what he is. Pace was a one man show in his own right.

Marcus
11-10-2005, 05:11 PM
Freeney's quickness has exposed many of the best LTs in the entire league. The only person I've seen handle him is Pace.

Do you remember the job that Matt Light of the Patriots did against Freeney in last year's playoff game? He shut him down so bad they moved him to the left side.

infantrycak
11-10-2005, 05:37 PM
Do you remember the job that Matt Light of the Patriots did against Freeney in last year's playoff game? He shut him down so bad they moved him to the left side.

Matt Light had help virtually the whole game plus, as this last Monday, the Pats run a ton of 3 and 5 step drops for Brady.

cuppacoffee
11-10-2005, 05:41 PM
Marcus I'm not going to disagree with what Pitts stated, because that's been his goal all along and that's why I have said that I wanted him on the right side in the best interest of the team. I'm going to take Mr B's evaluation of what Wand can be over Pitts. I think Pitts is very mistake prone and doesn't fit there as well as at the guard position. I firmly believe he has hampered the development of Wand, but that is my belief and you have yours and that's fair. Opinions make for a board like this one.

IMHO This staff has hampered the development of several players.

Carr (shellshocked and beaten to a pulp), Babin (try coaching him a second move). Gaffney (yeah keep him behind Bradford), Armstrong (seems to me that he produces when he is given a chance),to name just a few.
The free agents we thought so much of and threw so much money at,
and our new crop of rookies, are all facing the same fate.
This group of coaches has got to go. :deadhorse

Have I mentioned this before?....:brickwall

cac: :coffee:

Runner
11-10-2005, 05:53 PM
Do you remember the job that Matt Light of the Patriots did against Freeney in last year's playoff game? He shut him down so bad they moved him to the left side.


Matt Light had help virtually the whole game plus, as this last Monday, the Pats run a ton of 3 and 5 step drops for Brady.

Right. The Patriots always do a clinic on how to double team Freeney.