PDA

View Full Version : Front Seven/Secondary Comparison


TEXANS84
11-08-2005, 05:22 PM
Here is a current break-down (stat wise of our front seven) compared to a "better" defensive ranking unit:

2005 Houston Texans (28th ranked defense) vs. 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers (8th ranked defense)

Front Seven Comparison:

LDE-Aaron Smith (8 games): 15 total tackles, 1 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF
LDE-Gary Walker (4 games): 16 total tackles, 2 sack, 2 pass defensed, 1 FF

NT-Casey Hampton (8 games): 15 total tackles, 0 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF
NT-Seth Payne (8 games): 26 total tackles, 3 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF

RDE-Kimo Von Oelhoffen (8 games): 8 total tackles, 1 sack, 3 pass defensed, 0 FF
RDE- Robaire Smith (8 games): 19 total tackles, 0 sack, 3 pass defensed, 0 FF

LOLB-Clark Haggans (5 games): 19 total tackles, 4 sack, 1 pass defensed, 3 FF
LOLB-Shante Orr (6 games): 12 total tackles, 1 sack, 1 pass defensed, 1 FF

LILB-James Farrior (8 games): 43 total tackles, 1 sack, 2 pass defensed, 1 FF
LILB-Dashon Polk (3 games): 19 total tackles, 0 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF
(Kailee Wong-IR)(5 games): 21 total tackles, 1 sack, 2 pass defensed, 1 FF

RILB-Larry Foote: (8 games): 38 total tackles, 0 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF
RILB-Morlon Greenwood (8 games): 41 total tackles, 0 sack, 3 pass defensed, 0 FF

ROLB-Joey Porter (8 games): 20 tackles, 4 sack, 2 pass defensed, 2 FF
ROLB-Antwan Peek (8 games): 13 tackles, 2 sack, 1 pass defensed, 1 FF


Secondary Comparison:

LCB-Ike Taylor (8 games): 44 tackles, 0 sack, 8 pass defensed, 0 FF, 1 INT
LCB-Demarcus Faggins (8 games): 27 tackles, 0 sack, 2 pass defensed, 0 FF, 0 INT

RCB-Deshea Townsend (8 games): 20 tackles, 1 sack, 3 pass defensed, 1 FF, 0 INT
RCB-Dunta Robinson (8 games): 30 tackles, 1 sack, 6 pass defensed, 1 FF, 1 INT

FS-Chris Hope (8 games): 37 tackles, 0 sack, 4 pass defensed, 0 FF, 3 INT
FS-Marcus Coleman (8 games): 35 tackles, 0 sack, 1 pass defensed, 1 FF, 0 INT

SS-Troy Palamalu (8 games): 39 tackles, 3 sack, 3 pass defensed, 0 FF, 1 INT
SS-C.C. Brown (8 games): 27 tackles, 0 sack, 0 pass defensed, 0 FF, 0 INT

Discuss...

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 05:34 PM
One thing that jumps out among similar looking stats generally is much better production from the OLB spots--combined (with the Steelers having one less game):

Steelers--39 tackles, 8 sacks, 3 passes defended, 5 FF
Texans--25 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 passes defended, 2 FF

Big difference. Good thing the Texans took a look at Clark Haggans and decided not to hire him.

MorKnolle
11-08-2005, 05:36 PM
Interesting comparison. The tackles are relatively even but it doesn't properly show how many yards are being given up before the tackles are made, and it also obviously neglects the defensive backfield. Polamalu for one has more sacks and interceptions than anyone on our team.

TheOgre
11-08-2005, 05:41 PM
Pittsburgh:
23 sacks
gives up 3.2 yards per run

Houston:
13 sacks
gives up 4.8 yards per run

Their OLB's look more productive than ours. The number of tackles doesn't tell you how many yards the opponent has gained. Jay Foreman racked up a ton of tackles but often got them 8 yards down field (on a run).

These stats do make you wonder if our passive version of the 3-4 is more of the culprit than the just the talent though.

CoastalTexan
11-08-2005, 05:47 PM
I'm not a master football mind or anything but it seems to me that our 3-4 is pretty blah. All we seem to do is rush Peek and basically have 4 rushers just like a 4-3. From my understanding the 3-4 is supposed to mix it up, rush Orr some downs, Polk some, etc... Could it be that our defense is as creative as our offense? If they know we are rushing Peek on every down its gotta be pretty easy to play against. I have no idea, just throwing something out there.

TEXANS84
11-08-2005, 05:53 PM
Interesting comparison. The tackles are relatively even but it doesn't properly show how many yards are being given up before the tackles are made, and it also obviously neglects the defensive backfield. Polamalu for one has more sacks and interceptions than anyone on our team.

Secondary comparison now included in above.

NederlandTexan
11-08-2005, 10:27 PM
Big difference is philosophy....Steelers play an aggresive style of defense, we on the other hand have " the fastest defense since we've been here " but our philosophy is to rush 3 sometimes 4 and drop the rest into zone coverage. Personally, I would rather give up the occasional big play and make more big plays ourself. Just my opinion.

LBC_Justin
11-09-2005, 03:14 AM
Interesting comparison. The tackles are relatively even but it doesn't properly show how many yards are being given up before the tackles are made, and it also obviously neglects the defensive backfield. Polamalu for one has more sacks and interceptions than anyone on our team.
Bingo!!

Plus, our guys have tons of tackles because our Defense is on the field most of the game. When you allow long drives you get to make lots of tackles too.

Like you said.

Key stats, that are missing from this are:
-points allowed by the defensive unit
-yards allowed
-yards per play
-3rd down converstion %..... I bet the Steelers make the stop when it counts more than we do.
-Red Zone defense
-etc

Malloy
11-09-2005, 05:00 AM
Considering that our D is on the field longer than most other D's we play against, our numbers _should_ be higher. We do register alot of tackles (thank god, else that would be 7-point drives) but we sadly lack in sacks, FF's and INT's.

So, tackle numbers are somewhat hard to "analyse" since there are so many other factors that kick in, but the disrupts are useful, sacks, FF's and INT's.

Say "sadly lack in sacks" ten times without spilling your coffee :)

Runner
11-09-2005, 07:34 AM
Big difference is philosophy....Steelers play an aggresive style of defense, we on the other hand have " the fastest defense since we've been here " but our philosophy is to rush 3 sometimes 4 and drop the rest into zone coverage. Personally, I would rather give up the occasional big play and make more big plays ourself. Just my opinion.

Yep. I'd like to see out OLBs rush at the snap more, instead of snap - read - rush.

aj.
11-09-2005, 08:00 AM
Where's the stat that shows the Texans defense giving up 70 more yards/game and 12 more points/game than the Steelers, while having to defend 27 fewer plays than the Steelers?

Cincinnatikid
11-09-2005, 08:56 AM
This is nothing suprising, or at least it shouldnt be. Everyone knows this scheme is terrible where instead of having the LBs rush or blitz they sit for 1 second, decide what they have to do, then the blitz or rush. This gives the qb extra time, which isnt even needed because this team is always in a zone that can be picked apart. I find it sad how so many people criticize the players and claim a lack of talent when there is no way to judge what some of them can do because they are not in the best position/scheme to allow them to play to their potential.

Marcus
11-09-2005, 09:37 AM
I find it sad how so many people criticize the players and claim a lack of talent when there is no way to judge what some of them can do because they are not in the best position/scheme to allow them to play to their potential.

Careful now, Mr. Peek. I can turn that one right around.

I find it sad how so many people criticize the coaches and claim a lack of coaching when there is no way to judge what some of them can do because the players lack the talent necessary to properly execute the plays/scheme.

Play to their potential? You show me a player who has potential, I'll show you player that hasn't done anything.

And if you are the OLB in a 3-4 in obvious passing situations, how does lack of coaching play a role in your inability to get to the QB? If there is one player on this team that I've the most disappointed with this season, it is Antwan Peek. People were jumping up and down, just pleading for the coaches to start him. Well, they did. And what has he done?

Nothing.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 09:57 AM
And if you are the OLB in a 3-4 in obvious passing situations, how does lack of coaching play a role in your inability to get to the QB? If there is one player on this team that I've the most disappointed with this season, it is Antwan Peek. People were jumping up and down, just pleading for the coaches to start him. Well, they did. And what has he done?

Nothing.

Well since you ask, let's use your example. Now with Antwan Peek as the "best pass rusher on the team" according to the coaches, you might think an aggressive D would have him rush the QB on almost all obvious passing scenarios. That isn't happening--sure he rushes some, but on many plays he is sitting alone in the flat or backing up into coverage or even following a WR down the field. That has an affect on what you see out of him QB pressure wise and it is coaching. That isn't a Peek specific comment. The Texans commonly rush 4--3 DL + 1 LB or 2 DL + 2 LB's as DE's (and sometimes one of these guys drops into coverage). We might see more pass rush and stats from Babin/Orr/Peek if we would rush 5 more often. Those are coaching decisions.

Do you really think this coaching staff is getting full performance of the talent level that is on the team?

Marcus
11-09-2005, 10:22 AM
That isn't happening--sure he rushes some, but on many plays he is sitting alone in the flat or backing up into coverage or even following a WR down the field.

That's exactly what New England does with their 3-4, right? Did you watch that Colts/Patriots playoff game last year? Did you see what their LBs did?

Ok, let's just narrow it down to the situations where he does rush.

Does he get to the QB?

Let's be more fair about it. Let's also include Jason Babin, the other OLB. Again, let's narrow it down to the situations where he does rush.

Does he get to the QB?

Coaching decisions, Infantry?

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 10:36 AM
That's exactly what New England does with their 3-4, right? Did you watch that Colts/Patriots playoff game last year? Did you see what their LBs did?

The Patriots, in marked contrast to the Texans monolithic coaching staff, present new looks virtually every game including different games plans against the Colts in the regular season and post-season. IMO they scheme far better, scheme to the strengths of their player, and have inspired an atmosphere that has every player performing to their full potential and even to the point they will play for less money. I don't see where the Texans staff has accomplished any of those things.

Ok, let's just narrow it down to the situations where he does rush.

Does he get to the QB?

Let's be more fair about it. Let's also include Jason Babin, the other OLB. Again, let's narrow it down to the situations where he does rush.

Does he get to the QB?

Coaching decisions, Infantry?

Well, yes in large part it is a coaching decision. Anderson, Orr, Peek & Babin all get some pressure on the QB--QB pressures would be a much better measure than sacks, but I don't know of a source for that stat--when the Texans rush 3 or 4. Many times the QB is releasing the ball in response to a LB approaching. If the coaches had assigned another LB to rush from the other side, or any number of other pressure options, delayed ILB blitz, DB blitz, etc. it would reduce the options for the QB to avoid the pressure. We consistantly see QB's sliding around in a pocket to avoid a single rusher getting close to them. Contrast that with the fumble play last weekend--DE coming around one side, LB blitz from the opposite and Stroud up the middle--no option for the QB--sack and fumble. If the Texans would scheme for pressure more, they would get more pressure with this personnel and yes that is a coaching decision. That doesn't mean anymore than it says--certainly the personnel on the team could be upgraded--DeMarcus Ware would be better than Peek for example--but it isn't a one or the other situation and IMO this coaching staff is not getting everything out of the players they have, i.e. they are failing in their job.

Once again, do you really think this coaching staff is getting full performance of the talent level that is on the team?

wags
11-09-2005, 10:46 AM
Where's the stat that shows the Texans defense giving up 70 more yards/game and 12 more points/game than the Steelers, while having to defend 27 fewer plays than the Steelers?

You find that stat buried deep in Dom Capers notepad.

Double Barrel
11-09-2005, 12:12 PM
I find it sad how so many people criticize the coaches and claim a lack of coaching when there is no way to judge what some of them can do because the players lack the talent necessary to properly execute the plays/scheme.

Then it is a failure of this coaching staff in evaluating players.

No matter how you slice and dice it - the scheme doesn't fit the players or the players don't fit the scheme - the evidence clearly points to failure by these coaches to do their jobs.

Marcus, I respect your pov, and your position is that we should fire players that don't do their jobs.

Why don't we hold our coaches to the same standards? :hmmm:

Our coaches are rigid in their gameplans. We see the same old/same old every game. We are not fooling anyone, and the 3-4/cover 2 seems more like a resignation to mediocrity than the worn out "bend-don't-break-defense" line that we've been told time after time.

Marcus
11-09-2005, 03:20 PM
Once again, do you really think this coaching staff is getting full performance of the talent level that is on the team?
I don't know. I suppose not. If you really want to know who I think should be thrown out on his ear, check the avatar that I just stole from aj.
Marcus, I respect your pov, and your position is that we should fire players that don't do their jobs.

Why don't we hold our coaches to the same standards?
Why don't . . "we ". . hold our coaches and players . . to the same standards? You say that you're tired of the excuses. But you're more than willing to excuse poor player perfomance to bad coaching. Isn't that a double standard? You act as if the players are snotty-nosed kids that need to be led around like . . . .

Never mind. :brickwall

I think what I would like to see is more balanced criticism. Wishful thinking, I suppose.

Double Barrel
11-09-2005, 03:40 PM
Marcus,

I've never said players should be not held to the same standards. I've never advocated a position that our players are anything other than what they are right now - a 1-7 team. Please refrain from speaking out of your assumption (at least with regards to putting words in my mouth). :D

What I have said in the past is that the coaches/GM pick the players. And they either picked overhyped players, or can't inspire the talent that they do have right now.

Either way, the buck stops at the top...which you obviously agree with sporting that fine looking avatar you've got there. ;)

Cincinnatikid
11-09-2005, 03:57 PM
Marcus my friend, my point was not that the players dont fit the scheme or even that the scheme doesnt fit our players. My point is that this whole scheme is terrible and that no players would ever fit this scheme. You can have the fastest, strongest, smartest OLBs in the league and it wouldnt work. On almost every snap you can see the OLBs have to see whether the QB is dropping back and then they have to make the decision to rush or drop back. That is a wasted second and if it usually takes a second or two to get to the QB on the rush, then it is near impossible to get a sack. So my point is that even though this scheme is not good because it is easily picked apart by a good QB, the OLBs are causing the QB to make quicker decisions but they still can find open receivers. Peek, Orr, Babin and Anderson have not gotten many sacks but they have put on some decent pressure. I might also add that Peek forced Leftwiich to step up into the pocket last week which allowed a DL to get a sack. Sacks are not the only important thing, but if they were allowed to just simply rush instead of reacting, and there were some blitzes, I think that Peek and Babin and whoever else would meet their expectations.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 05:14 PM
I don't know. I suppose not. If you really want to know who I think should be thrown out on his ear, check the avatar that I just stole from aj.

Actually I am a card-carrying member of aj's get rid of Casserly club, I just don't sport the avatar. I have prioritized elsewhere my hit list as #1 Fangio, #2 Casserly, #3 Pendry and #4 Capers. Now with #4 you get a bonus of #1 and #3, and realistically Fangio won't go before Capers so from that viewpoint, Casserly is my #1. That said, I still think the coaching is horrid.

touttail
11-11-2005, 08:50 AM
Speaking of how important a defense is to a team. Look at the Ravens, they won a Super Bowl with an outstanding defense and a average offense with Dilfer at QB. Dilfer was told not to throw interceptions to lose the game and he didn't. The Ravens defense held their opponents to low scores giving their offense a chance to score enough to win. This is Capers thinking, but our defense is well below average, so your offense can't be mediocre playing Capers conservative football!

bobby 119C

keyfro
11-11-2005, 09:42 AM
you know stats are tricky things...i've always thought stats on defense doesn't matter...there are only two stats that matter on defense...how many points allowed per game and scoring defense...that's what matters...for get the yardage...points is what wins this game

Vinny
11-11-2005, 09:45 AM
you know stats are tricky things...i've always thought stats on defense doesn't matter...there are only two stats that matter on defense...how many points allowed per game and scoring defense...that's what matters...for get the yardage...points is what wins this game Stats are for baseball. You cannot tell as much with statistics in football as you can in sports like baseball where you can look up the best hitters by looking at BA or SP, or pitchers by looking at their key stats. Most statistics in football are deceiving at best because there are way too many variables in the numbers.

Texans Horror
11-11-2005, 09:50 AM
Speaking of how important a defense is to a team. Look at the Ravens, they won a Super Bowl with an outstanding defense and a average offense with Dilfer at QB. Dilfer was told not to throw interceptions to lose the game and he didn't. The Ravens defense held their opponents to low scores giving their offense a chance to score enough to win. This is Capers thinking, but our defense is well below average, so your offense can't be mediocre playing Capers conservative football!

bobby 119C

We're no ravens...

MorKnolle
11-11-2005, 10:17 AM
Speaking of how important a defense is to a team. Look at the Ravens, they won a Super Bowl with an outstanding defense and a average offense with Dilfer at QB. Dilfer was told not to throw interceptions to lose the game and he didn't. The Ravens defense held their opponents to low scores giving their offense a chance to score enough to win. This is Capers thinking, but our defense is well below average, so your offense can't be mediocre playing Capers conservative football!

bobby 119C

The Buccaneers did it a couple years later too. Their #1 defense shut down the #1 offense in the Raiders in the Super Bowl.