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DRAMA
11-08-2005, 12:00 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

The bad decision came at the most crucial time - period! Although it was a good throw, big deal. It was the WRONG throw. Wrong moves are mistakes. Mistakes cost you football games. The throw was riskier thus making it a harder catch thus making it too risky on a fourth down when the game is on the line. You don't make those mistakes and win. Again, mistakes cost you games.

Carr makes too many mistakes - period. So does Bradford, the ENTIRE OL, Coleman, Buchanon, and Babin. Pendry was getting on Carr because of the bad read.

Pbuc was benched
Babin was benched
OL guys were moved and benched
Bradford has been cut AND benched.
Carr? Anyone??? Bueller? Bueller?

Cannon arms are sweet. Mistakes are terrible because why class? They cost you games! Bradford dropping it was irrelevant because:

Bradford should not be playing anyway (Coach mistake)
Bradford should'nt be a Texan (Casserly mistake)
Bradford should not have been a legit option on a crucial play (Coach mistake)
Bradford should not have been looked at (Carr mistake)
Johnson should have ran that route with Gaffney underneath (Coach mistake)
Carr panics (OL mistake)
Carr doesn't read the D correctly (OL and CARR mistake)
Bradford drops it (Bradford mistake)

Mistake after mistake is why we're 1-16...err....1-7. Mistakes are controlled by coaching! Players are controlled by mistakes and players can be cut! Therefore mistakes can be eliminated!

It's seriously frustrating to hear we played well this week. MY GOD! No! We did NOT play well. We had one of our 21 out-pattern pass plays broken for TD. That's 1 all season. That does not constitute playing well. Coach Capers talking about heart and passion but lack of execution does not mean we played well. We didn't and DON'T play well. For whatever reason, we are not a good football team. I personally believe it's mistakes. I don't feel the talent level is that different on any team. It's the smart guys who are talented and DON'T make mistakes are the ones who win. They just happen to be coached by men who DO NOT allow mistakes to be made. Then again...maybe it's justy me and I'm a frustrated fan!

Aka - Doc Rocket

kenneth24
11-08-2005, 12:03 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

Andre stopped on the route. FACT! :brickwall

beerlover
11-08-2005, 12:03 PM
Then again...maybe it's justy me and I'm a frustrated fan!
Aka - Doc Rocket

I'll agree with that :brickwall

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 12:13 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

Did you see where the safety and LB were when Carr made his read on AJ?

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 12:20 PM
AJ was open - watch the tape. Pendry was on him BECAUSE AJ was open. the play was to AJ.

And yes, AJ stopped......at 12 yards! know what that's called? First down! You know what that means? 4 more plays!

:hairpull:

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 12:23 PM
AJ was open - watch the tape. Pendry was on him BECAUSE AJ was open. the play was to AJ.

And yes, AJ stopped......at 12 yards! know what that's called? First down! You know what that means? 4 more plays!

:hairpull:

Try answering the question--where were the safety and the LB at the moment Carr made his read?

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 12:26 PM
Not in the play....

ArlingtonTexan
11-08-2005, 12:27 PM
The funniest thing to me is that Carr is getting business for making a perfect pass in the hands of a WR who dropped the ball. The point of the game is score TDs not first downs.

Runner
11-08-2005, 12:27 PM
AJ was open - watch the tape. Pendry was on him BECAUSE AJ was open. the play was to AJ.


That turns out not to be the case. The reason that Pendry was on him was the previous sack.

PapaL
11-08-2005, 12:31 PM
Here's a better question, why isnt your #1 WR running a deep route on that play? Everyone is fixating on the "improper" read, I'm wondering why AJ wasnt running Bradfords route.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 12:31 PM
Not in the play....

Ummm, wrong. The safety had his hand on AJ as they were travelling right to left approaching the LB as Carr looked to AJ. Seeing that he looked to Bradford, saw him open and threw the ball. You can see his head turn from AJ to Bradford in the tape.

Texans Horror
11-08-2005, 12:34 PM
Here's a better question, why isnt your #1 WR running a deep route on that play? Everyone is fixating on the "improper" read, I'm wondering why AJ wasnt running Bradfords route.

The way Dre was playing in the last quarter, he looked wiped. This was a big concern. He was playing (like Wand) like a guy who hasn't been in the game for a while (for Seth, about nine months). I haven't graded the tape yet, but I remember Dre either missed the route or came up way short. We may want him to be the go-to guy in this situation, but not this day. He wasn't the guy to go to.

TexanBearkat
11-08-2005, 12:35 PM
I like the fact that Pendry will get on Carr's case and not just say, 'Aw shucks we'll try to do better next time.' I'm still a big fan of Carr's and believe he can be a very good QB. The days of treating him with kid gloves should certainly be over.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 12:37 PM
The funniest thing to me is that Carr is getting business for making a perfect pass in the hands of a WR who dropped the ball. The point of the game is score TDs not first downs.

Exactly--like this team has been so consistant in its performance otherwise that the odds of a one strike TD to an open WR were lower than the odds of AJ getting the 1st down and the Texans marching 30 more yds for a TD in :35 seconds.

ArlingtonTexan
11-08-2005, 12:38 PM
Here's a better question, why isnt your #1 WR running a deep route on that play? Everyone is fixating on the "improper" read, I'm wondering why AJ wasnt running Bradfords route.

As roles go, Bradford is classified as the "deep threat"

eriadoc
11-08-2005, 12:39 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

Nice post here by Infantrycak, reviewing the game from his tape/Tivo - http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14295

The pertinent part, snipped for your convenience -

":54 4th & 9 4 WR-3R, shotgun. :52 the ball is out, incomplete to Bradford. Pass protection good. Bradford is very open—hardly qualifies as double coverage as Deion Grant is so far away from play. Carr looks AJ 1st—at the time of the look, one Jag has hand on AJ and they are moving right to left approaching a LB. Carr then looks to Bradford and throws. AJ comes open after Carr’s head turns to Bradford. Looks like AJ comes open as the two Jags tangle on each other a little. Predominant fault Bradford."

The anti-Carr agenda wouldn't be as tired if it were lobbied with a bit more objectivity.

Runner
11-08-2005, 12:40 PM
Exactly--like this team has been so consistant in its performance otherwise that the odds of a one strike TD to an open WR were lower than the odds of AJ getting the 1st down and the Texans marching 30 more yds for a TD in :35 seconds.

Double exactly - the only place I've seen anyone question the decision/throw has been on this board. The coaches publicly acknowledge the fault was Bradford's.

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 12:42 PM
I understand that there were people 'around him' as there were people 'around' Bradford - two of them actually but you throw the ball to the spot not the player. When AJ turns and hooks by 1 yard after running full speed, that guy's beat. Granted, it's only by a couple of steps but he's beat and is not in the play as considered by a QB making a 'read' on a pass. Otherwise, no one would ever be open because someone is always within 5 yards of the WR. But as an old QB, (Emphasis on QB not old), seeing my WR running the right route, that Safety can in no way make a play on that. IMO, he's in no shape to make a play. At the point he's riding him, the defender has no idea the little curl's coming. He's there and then he's not.

The pass to CB was a helluva pass and this post does not mean drop Carr. I want Carr to have an OL and then have judgement passed. My contention is that mistakes are the culprit and we see Bradford as the mistake on this play when I see it being Carr. Again, it's not personal against DC. I want DC to show he can 'read' - I want that but it's hard for him to do anything when a great game still contains 6 sacks.

More than anything I just want some change and a new direction. However, I still think Carr can lead that change.

TheOgre
11-08-2005, 12:42 PM
The funniest thing to me is that Carr is getting business for making a perfect pass in the hands of a WR who dropped the ball. The point of the game is score TDs not first downs.

Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.

ArlingtonTexan
11-08-2005, 12:44 PM
Exactly--like this team has been so consistant in its performance otherwise that the odds of a one strike TD to an open WR were lower than the odds of AJ getting the 1st down and the Texans marching 30 more yds for a TD in :35 seconds.

I would argue that you have to make that throw 100 out 100 times. (Even if you think that Bradford is 50-50 to catch it)

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 12:48 PM
I would argue that you have to make that throw 100 out 100 times. (Even if you think that Bradford is 50-50 to catch it)

What stinks for me is that I completely agree with that 'mentality.' I so want us to be more agressive and stop playing to 'not lose.' Where we see things as different is simply on the down. On third, I make that throw 100 out of 100 times. For me, if I was QB or coach, I would've gone underneath...but again, that's me...

PapaL
11-08-2005, 12:49 PM
If Mathis was healthy, anyone else think he would have been running that route? Especially after the catch last week.

Vinny
11-08-2005, 12:50 PM
What stinks for me is that I completely agree with that 'mentality.' I so want us to be more agressive and stop playing to 'not lose.' Where we see things as different is simply on the down. On third, I make that throw 100 out of 100 times. For me, if I was QB or coach, I would've gone underneath...but again, that's me... You are not alone on this. I too question the decision on 4th and go home. QB's have to project open WR's and throw to the spot and I don't see Carr throwing to anyone unless they are wide open early in the route.

eriadoc
11-08-2005, 12:54 PM
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.

The coaching staff had it outlined for Carr all day - if you get Bradford in single coverage against Kenny Wright, hit it. That is exactly what Carr did, and he did it perfectly. There was no double coverage, and the safety made it over to the play by the end but still didn't manage to get his hands on the ball. In fact, neither of the DBs ever touched the ball. Bradford had it in his hands, tucked it, and lost it when he hit the ground. Carr did as his coaches instructed.

ArlingtonTexan
11-08-2005, 12:55 PM
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.

No...if the play is there you have to take it. In the NFL there no more that 5% -10% of plays where you have 33% chance of scoring a touchdown on that play. If Carr had thrown to Andre Johnson got the first down and the texans flounder out with an imcomplete pass , and dump off over the middle, and replay showed that Bradford was wide open then the some of the same people would saying Carr missed a wide open chance to score a TD. He tried to win the game and that was not a pass forced into coverage. That's a play a starting NFL QB is supposed make and he made it.

Carr finally makes a number pick in the draft decision and throw and still gets rundown because a below average WR does not do his job.

eriadoc
11-08-2005, 12:58 PM
You are not alone on this. I too question the decision on 4th and go home. QB's have to project open WR's and throw to the spot and I don't see Carr throwing to anyone unless they are wide open early in the route.

It's been well-documented on here that this offense rarely has time to wait for a WR to come open, so yes, if they're open early in the route, he should hit them then. Waiting to see if AJ was going to come open would surely have closed the window for the Bradford throw. We can use hindsight to say that's acceptable, but when he's out there on the field, knowing it's 4th down and he has 2-3 seconds to unload the ball (how much of that time is decision-making?), he has to let fly.

Runner
11-08-2005, 01:01 PM
Exactly--like this team has been so consistant in its performance otherwise that the odds of a one strike TD to an open WR were lower than the odds of AJ getting the 1st down and the Texans marching 30 more yds for a TD in :35 seconds.

To illustrate this point. Assume that Bradford had a 50% chance of making the play and the Texans had a 90% chance of punching it in from the 5 in 35 seconds. .50 * .90 = .45 chance of succeeding.

Assume Andre has a 90% chance of making the catch and the Texans have a 30% of scoring from the 30 in 35 seconds. .90 * .30 = .27 chance of succeeding.

Given these numbers, the long pass was the less risky play. Of course anyone can juggle these numbers around - they are just assumptions I'm using as an illustration. I personally think Bradford had a better than 50% chance of making the catch. As far as the 30% chance of scoring from the 32, who knows? We are very touchdown challenged right now. That 30% may be high.

More than anything I just want some change and a new direction.

I think the long pass was change and was happy to see it.

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 01:15 PM
Let's assume that the bomb is indeed the play to run at that point - why not have that 6.3, 230lb, 4.3 guy who can jump out of the building running the route instead of the guy who was cut and not claimed by another NFL team?

I'm not saying that Bradford's not at fault - he is. He was at fault last week when that ball hit on the lips! I think the numbers are skewed because 50/50 chances do not include the percentage of balls caught. Bradford is arguably as bad as any player in the NFL at simply catching the football. So to say it's 50/50 is too high. I'll give Carr the 50/50 that his pass is perfect though. He throws that rope-bomb pretty well but Bradford's chance of catching it is maybe 15-18% tops, if I had to ballpark it.

We all know that Bradford can't catch. We've discussed it for years. When I ask myself would I be as upset if they took that shot with AJ running the route, my answer would've been no - I would've been more tolerant of that play call in that case.

The question still remains - why not run that rope-bomb maybe twice a game. You know you're going to throw it so protection is irrellevant. 1-mississippi, 2-mississippi, 3-mississippi - throw! Maybe just throw it for fun?

Lucky
11-08-2005, 01:25 PM
Fact: We really, really needed another David Carr thread. Can't have enough.

Theory: If Capers & Co. don't move Pitts back to LT against the Colts, all Tony Banks fans (and maybe Ragone lovers) will get to see their man on the field at some point this Sunday.

nunusguy
11-08-2005, 01:27 PM
The funniest thing to me is that Carr is getting business for making a perfect pass in the hands of a WR who dropped the ball.
Texan fans may simply have been stunned, no make that they went into total shock because Carr and the team actually tried to win the game. And
I'll take it a step further - had Bradford made that catch, got into the EZ
(or had they got into the EZ soon after Bradfords catch had he made it), I would have been thrilled to see the team go for a 2 pt conversion and a win instead of settling for a tie and OT. Can you imagine how people in KC (not to mention the Chiefs team) feel this week after the play that Vermeil called up there Sunday to win it ? With our record now at 1-7, I'm hoping we see more plays like the one in Sundays game. What do we have to lose ?

Runner
11-08-2005, 01:29 PM
So to say it's 50/50 is too high. I'll give Carr the 50/50 that his pass is perfect though. He throws that rope-bomb pretty well but Bradford's chance of catching it is maybe 15-18% tops, if I had to ballpark it.


Carr was throwing both balls, so I took him out of the equation. His short throws recently aren't any more or less accurate than his long ones.

15 to 18% sounds unrealisticly low to me, but bashing is in vogue.

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 01:33 PM
I'm hoping we see more plays like the one in Sundays game. What do we have to lose ?

I completely agree...I'd just like to see them sprinkle them throughout the game. Maybe, oh I don't know, at the end of the first half with three time outs?

I do agree, we should attack but our staff hasn't attacked in 4 years...it's more than likely not going to happen now. Heck, if you read the quotes from Capers, you'd think we're in the hunt for the playoffs if can just tweak a few minor execution flaws.

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 01:51 PM
Carr was throwing both balls, so I took him out of the equation. His short throws recently aren't any more or less accurate than his long ones.

15 to 18% sounds unrealisticly low to me, but bashing is in vogue.

Bashing who? Bradford? Seriously? This franchise has to live up to the expectations of this city. Me being a Houstonian gives me the right to expect more from a team that I help subsidize. A BBS is instilled to allow just that - the expression of my opinion based on my knowledge of the topic. I simply do not think that Bradford is better than Armstrong, Gaffney or AJ...or even Mathis from what I've seen really. I don't think Bradford catches 50% of his balls that are 10 yard curls? So to say that he MAY catch 20% of the BOMBS is unrealistic? Not so much...

Porky
11-08-2005, 02:00 PM
I completely agree with Drama on virtually all of his points, sans the "we have the same talent" theory.

On 4th and 12 and a minute left, unless a guy, any guy, is WIDE open, you don't go for the home run. That's Jr. High stuff there. Anyone will tell you that. Your job there is to get the first down. Drama said it very well in his first post. Mistakes by the WR, QB, and coaching staff led to that particular play not being made at that moment. IF Bradford catches it and scores, of course I like the outcome, but I still wouldn't have liked the decision. Terrible decision by Carr. Dumb players like Carr and Bradford are bringing the entire football IQ of our city into negative numbers. It's hard to believe we are even having to debate this. This goes right into the "no brainer" catagory.

Runner
11-08-2005, 02:02 PM
Bashing who? Bradford? Seriously? This franchise has to live up to the expectations of this city. Me being a Houstonian gives me the right to expect more from a team that I help subsidize. A BBS is instilled to allow just that - the expression of my opinion based on my knowledge of the topic. I simply do not think that Bradford is better than Armstrong, Gaffney or AJ...or even Mathis from what I've seen really. I don't think Bradford catches 50% of his balls that are 10 yard curls? So to say that he MAY catch 20% of the BOMBS is unrealistic? Not so much...

I never made any claims about Bradford being better than anybody else, or said that you didn't have the right to expect more from your team. Yes, you have every right to post your opinion and be as adamant as you wish about it. I knew better than to post on a thread where so many of the original statements were followed by "period", but I posted anyway.

I'm sorry I wasted your time trying to discuss something on a discussion board.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 02:05 PM
I don't think Bradford catches 50% of his balls that are 10 yard curls? So to say that he MAY catch 20% of the BOMBS is unrealistic? Not so much...

Bradford has caught 48.6% and 50% of the passes directed to him this year and last. Before you go aha, though, that includes missed balls, defended balls, etc. so for example Randy Moss has caught 45.6% this year 57.6% last year (no I am not equating Moss to Bradford, just using a commonly known example). From the QB perspective, about 30% of Carr's incompletions are poor throws, 13% are defensed--those are not out of line--once again for illustration purposes only, 35% of Manning's incompletions are poor throws and 20% are defensed. So basically, even though Bradford has infuriated fans by not making catches, the % of the time when the ball is delivered to him in catchable form that he has made the catch is much greater than you think.

Porky
11-08-2005, 02:20 PM
Bradford has caught 48.6% and 50% of the passes directed to him this year and last. Before you go aha, though, that includes missed balls, defended balls, etc. so for example Randy Moss has caught 45.6% this year 57.6% last year (no I am not equating Moss to Bradford, just using a commonly known example). From the QB perspective, about 30% of Carr's incompletions are poor throws, 13% are defensed--those are not out of line--once again for illustration purposes only, 35% of Manning's incompletions are poor throws and 20% are defensed. So basically, even though Bradford has infuriated fans by not making catches, the % of the time when the ball is delivered to him in catchable form that he has made the catch is much greater than you think.

All that analysis is nice, and I honestly am not trying to take anything away from it, but it's really a lot simpler than that. Watch the games. :brickwall

BigBull17
11-08-2005, 02:26 PM
I completely agree with Drama on virtually all of his points, sans the "we have the same talent" theory.

On 4th and 12 and a minute left, unless a guy, any guy, is WIDE open, you don't go for the home run. That's Jr. High stuff there. Anyone will tell you that. Your job there is to get the first down. Drama said it very well in his first post. Mistakes by the WR, QB, and coaching staff led to that particular play not being made at that moment. IF Bradford catches it and scores, of course I like the outcome, but I still wouldn't have liked the decision. Terrible decision by Carr. Dumb players like Carr and Bradford are bringing the entire football IQ of our city into negative numbers. It's hard to believe we are even having to debate this. This goes right into the "no brainer" catagory.
Your the same guy who bashes Carr for locking on and forcing the pass to AJ arent you? That was a good read, a great pass, and a bad drop. If you argue that CB shouldnt have a pass thrown his way he had playeda good game all day. The point is when you get a shot you take it. On 1st-4th if you are down by 7 and you have a man wide open its time to go for the jugular. PERIOD.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 02:38 PM
All that analysis is nice, and I honestly am not trying to take anything away from it, but it's really a lot simpler than that. Watch the games. :brickwall

I have watched every game, thank you very much. Would I be happy if the Texans benched Bradford and once Mathis is healthy played 4 WR's with AJ, Mathis, Armstrong & Gaff?--yup. But until they do that, I expect Carr or any QB they trot out there to make the reads in the order directed and if the WR is open, to make the throw. That is their job, not to categorically refuse to throw to a WR because fans don't care what the odds are, because they know what they have seen. Good lord--folks have been complaining for years about predictable play calling--how about this one--every time the Texans need more than 8 yards they will throw to AJ.

SESupergenius
11-08-2005, 02:40 PM
You are not alone on this. I too question the decision on 4th and go home. QB's have to project open WR's and throw to the spot and I don't see Carr throwing to anyone unless they are wide open early in the route.
What about that big throw to Gaffney on 3rd down just the previous game? Carr threw into tight coverage downfield. Come on now, I could name many, many more. Even in the same game he threw a dart to the TE who didn't catch it. Carr threw one to Bradford too in a hitch with a man right on him and Bradford couldn't pull it down because the defender overpowered him. Do want me to go on?

DRAMA
11-08-2005, 02:46 PM
I'm sorry I wasted your time trying to discuss something on a discussion board.

I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I just thought that you were accusing me of bashing someone. I may come out against someone as a player that I think could be upgraded. I don't really think I'm bashing them. I'm not really that upset with CB because I don't expect him to make that catch really. The reason I get upset with Carr is because I expect more. Basically, everytime I get mad at Carr I'm really upset with coaches and OL for doing it to him. Kinda like getting mad a kid for acting out but you're really upset with his family, discipline, caring or lack thereof.

As for the periods following my statements, I think it's just a flair for the dramatic. I completely see where you're coming from...I just think we see some of the small things a little differently really.

The fact is, we all want to go to the same place - period! :D

:trophy:

Runner
11-08-2005, 02:53 PM
I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I just thought that you were accusing me of bashing someone. I may come out against someone as a player that I think could be upgraded. I don't really think I'm bashing them. I'm not really that upset with CB because I don't expect him to make that catch really. The reason I get upset with Carr is because I expect more. Basically, everytime I get mad at Carr I'm really upset with coaches and OL for doing it to him. Kinda like getting mad a kid for acting out but you're really upset with his family, discipline, caring or lack thereof.

As for the periods following my statements, I think it's just a flair for the dramatic. I completely see where you're coming from...I just think we see some of the small things a little differently really.

The fact is, we all want to go to the same place - period! :D

:trophy:


Well said. Even though I do expect any receiver in this league to catch most balls that hit him in both hands, opinions differ.

A few wins would go a long way to lightening things up.

yaboycm
11-08-2005, 02:56 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

The bad decision came at the most crucial time - period! Although it was a good throw, big deal. It was the WRONG throw. Wrong moves are mistakes. Mistakes cost you football games. The throw was riskier thus making it a harder catch thus making it too risky on a fourth down when the game is on the line. You don't make those mistakes and win. Again, mistakes cost you games.

Carr makes too many mistakes - period. So does Bradford, the ENTIRE OL, Coleman, Buchanon, and Babin. Pendry was getting on Carr because of the bad read.

Pbuc was benched
Babin was benched
OL guys were moved and benched
Bradford has been cut AND benched.
Carr? Anyone??? Bueller? Bueller?

Cannon arms are sweet. Mistakes are terrible because why class? They cost you games! Bradford dropping it was irrelevant because:

Bradford should not be playing anyway (Coach mistake)
Bradford should'nt be a Texan (Casserly mistake)
Bradford should not have been a legit option on a crucial play (Coach mistake)
Bradford should not have been looked at (Carr mistake)
Johnson should have ran that route with Gaffney underneath (Coach mistake)
Carr panics (OL mistake)
Carr doesn't read the D correctly (OL and CARR mistake)
Bradford drops it (Bradford mistake)

Mistake after mistake is why we're 1-16...err....1-7. Mistakes are controlled by coaching! Players are controlled by mistakes and players can be cut! Therefore mistakes can be eliminated!

It's seriously frustrating to hear we played well this week. MY GOD! No! We did NOT play well. We had one of our 21 out-pattern pass plays broken for TD. That's 1 all season. That does not constitute playing well. Coach Capers talking about heart and passion but lack of execution does not mean we played well. We didn't and DON'T play well. For whatever reason, we are not a good football team. I personally believe it's mistakes. I don't feel the talent level is that different on any team. It's the smart guys who are talented and DON'T make mistakes are the ones who win. They just happen to be coached by men who DO NOT allow mistakes to be made. Then again...maybe it's justy me and I'm a frustrated fan!

Aka - Doc Rocket

PROPS TO THIS TAKE

utahmark
11-08-2005, 05:17 PM
Bradford has caught 48.6% and 50% of the passes directed to him this year and last. Before you go aha, though, that includes missed balls, defended balls, etc. so for example Randy Moss has caught 45.6% this year 57.6% last year (no I am not equating Moss to Bradford, just using a commonly known example). From the QB perspective, about 30% of Carr's incompletions are poor throws, 13% are defensed--those are not out of line--once again for illustration purposes only, 35% of Manning's incompletions are poor throws and 20% are defensed. So basically, even though Bradford has infuriated fans by not making catches, the % of the time when the ball is delivered to him in catchable form that he has made the catch is much greater than you think.

i dont care what the stats say. i say bradford has poor hands. what is the percentage of catchable balls that bradford has droped compared to moss?

Goldeagle
11-08-2005, 05:24 PM
AJ was open - watch the tape. Pendry was on him BECAUSE AJ was open. the play was to AJ.

And yes, AJ stopped......at 12 yards! know what that's called? First down! You know what that means? 4 more plays!

:hairpull:


WHO CARES, HE HIT BRADFORD WHO DROPPED THE BALL AND AJ SAID HE WAS WINDED! So you hit AJ and he drops the ball because he is tired.



TONY FREAKING DUNGY said on the NFL Network on Siruis radio that David Carr has the talent, no one really knows how good or bad he will be because of the INTENSE lack of pass protection. He then said Peyton Manning would get creamed behind our line.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 08:02 PM
i dont care what the stats say. i say bradford has poor hands. what is the percentage of catchable balls that bradford has droped compared to moss?

You don't care what the stats say and then ask for stats? Moss is better--the point is even Corey Bradford makes that catch 8+ times out of 10. In the context of decision making for the QB (the subject of the discussion) he should not refuse to hit an open Bradford for a potential game winning TD. If he is going to refuse to throw in that circumstance he needs to tell the coaches before the game so they can decide who to bench.

Runner
11-08-2005, 08:40 PM
WHO CARES, HE HIT BRADFORD WHO DROPPED THE BALL AND AJ SAID HE WAS WINDED! So you hit AJ and he drops the ball because he is tired.



TONY FREAKING DUNGY said on the NFL Network on Siruis radio that David Carr has the talent, no one really knows how good or bad he will be because of the INTENSE lack of pass protection. He then said Peyton Manning would get creamed behind our line.

But doesn't that just mean Tony Dungy is a Texan homer??????????

To be clear: that was a joke.

utahmark
11-08-2005, 08:44 PM
You don't care what the stats say and then ask for stats? Moss is better--the point is even Corey Bradford makes that catch 8+ times out of 10. In the context of decision making for the QB (the subject of the discussion) he should not refuse to hit an open Bradford for a potential game winning TD. If he is going to refuse to throw in that circumstance he needs to tell the coaches before the game so they can decide who to bench.

i wasnt even thinking about that pass. i agreed with the deep ball. what i dont agree with is bradford making that catch 8 of 10 times. its more like 5 of 10. but that still was better odds than johnson making the catch and us scoring from somewhere around the 30 yard line with around 30 sec left.

and im still interested in how corey compares to moss in holding on to catchable balls. if you have those numbers or know where i could find them let me know.

Runner
11-08-2005, 08:50 PM
i wasnt even thinking about that pass. i agreed with the deep ball. what i dont agree with is bradford making that catch 8 of 10 times. its more like 5 of 10. but that still was better odds than johnson making the catch and us scoring from somewhere around the 30 yard line with around 30 sec left.

and im still interested in how corey compares to moss in holding on to catchable balls. if you have those numbers or know where i could find them let me know.

5 out of 10 - that's the number I used! I think it's a little conservative though. Anyway...

... I think the comparison of Moss to Bradford would result in.....no comparison at all. I think he chose Moss not because he had similar ability to Bradford, but to show that even the highly skilled receivers have their misses.

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 08:58 PM
Let's look at the facts -

Carr missed Dre for the first down - period. Watch the replays....he was there - no LB, no safety, no nada....

That's called a BAD decision.

The bad decision came at the most crucial time - period! Although it was a good throw, big deal. It was the WRONG throw. Wrong moves are mistakes. Mistakes cost you football games. The throw was riskier thus making it a harder catch thus making it too risky on a fourth down when the game is on the line. You don't make those mistakes and win. Again, mistakes cost you games.

Carr makes too many mistakes - period. So does Bradford, the ENTIRE OL, Coleman, Buchanon, and Babin. Pendry was getting on Carr because of the bad read.

Pbuc was benched
Babin was benched
OL guys were moved and benched
Bradford has been cut AND benched.
Carr? Anyone??? Bueller? Bueller?

Cannon arms are sweet. Mistakes are terrible because why class? They cost you games! Bradford dropping it was irrelevant because:

Bradford should not be playing anyway (Coach mistake)
Bradford should'nt be a Texan (Casserly mistake)
Bradford should not have been a legit option on a crucial play (Coach mistake)
Bradford should not have been looked at (Carr mistake)
Johnson should have ran that route with Gaffney underneath (Coach mistake)
Carr panics (OL mistake)
Carr doesn't read the D correctly (OL and CARR mistake)
Bradford drops it (Bradford mistake)

Mistake after mistake is why we're 1-16...err....1-7. Mistakes are controlled by coaching! Players are controlled by mistakes and players can be cut! Therefore mistakes can be eliminated!

It's seriously frustrating to hear we played well this week. MY GOD! No! We did NOT play well. We had one of our 21 out-pattern pass plays broken for TD. That's 1 all season. That does not constitute playing well. Coach Capers talking about heart and passion but lack of execution does not mean we played well. We didn't and DON'T play well. For whatever reason, we are not a good football team. I personally believe it's mistakes. I don't feel the talent level is that different on any team. It's the smart guys who are talented and DON'T make mistakes are the ones who win. They just happen to be coached by men who DO NOT allow mistakes to be made. Then again...maybe it's justy me and I'm a frustrated fan!

Aka - Doc Rocket
Would yoy still blame Carr if it was AJ running the deep route and he dropt it? What about if Bradford had caught the ball? If you acctually watch the replay, you will see that when Carr looks at AJ, the MLB is all over him, once Carr looks at Bradford, AJ is able to break away from coverage, but he was also 3 yds short of the marker, nothing guaranteed there. Carr made a good read and a better throw, period.

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:03 PM
Here's a better question, why isnt your #1 WR running a deep route on that play? Everyone is fixating on the "improper" read, I'm wondering why AJ wasnt running Bradfords route.
Becasue that would have eliminated a throw to AJ, you know the Jags would have immediatley doubled him if he went deep.

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:07 PM
I understand that there were people 'around him' as there were people 'around' Bradford - two of them actually but you throw the ball to the spot not the player. When AJ turns and hooks by 1 yard after running full speed, that guy's beat. Granted, it's only by a couple of steps but he's beat and is not in the play as considered by a QB making a 'read' on a pass. Otherwise, no one would ever be open because someone is always within 5 yards of the WR. But as an old QB, (Emphasis on QB not old), seeing my WR running the right route, that Safety can in no way make a play on that. IMO, he's in no shape to make a play. At the point he's riding him, the defender has no idea the little curl's coming. He's there and then he's not.

The pass to CB was a helluva pass and this post does not mean drop Carr. I want Carr to have an OL and then have judgement passed. My contention is that mistakes are the culprit and we see Bradford as the mistake on this play when I see it being Carr. Again, it's not personal against DC. I want DC to show he can 'read' - I want that but it's hard for him to do anything when a great game still contains 6 sacks.

More than anything I just want some change and a new direction. However, I still think Carr can lead that change.

But if a linebacker plays zone and covers AJ when carr looks at him, he cant assume AJ is going to come open later and not follow thorugh his progression. Its 4th down, he cant lock on to one guy becasue the other reciver has no hands. Not Carr's fault that he is on the field. 4th and long in the last minute of the game, you cant wait for your favorite target to maybe be open, esspecially when you have a reciver on the outside who jsut beat his corner:brickwall

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:08 PM
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.
No pass that hits a wide reciver in the hands is a low % pass

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:17 PM
Bashing who? Bradford? Seriously? This franchise has to live up to the expectations of this city. Me being a Houstonian gives me the right to expect more from a team that I help subsidize. A BBS is instilled to allow just that - the expression of my opinion based on my knowledge of the topic. I simply do not think that Bradford is better than Armstrong, Gaffney or AJ...or even Mathis from what I've seen really. I don't think Bradford catches 50% of his balls that are 10 yard curls? So to say that he MAY catch 20% of the BOMBS is unrealistic? Not so much...
Thats going over the top. He has crappy hands, but only to where he has 1-2 drops per game. The cleaveland game was terriblle and he had 2 drops. I guarantee that Bradford catches that pass well over 50% of the time, otherwise he would not have made it through college. Remeber, he is the "deep threat", meaning he is used to catching those types of ball, even more reason to throw it to him.

utahmark
11-08-2005, 09:17 PM
this has to be the most talked about play ive ever seen here.

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:20 PM
I completely agree with Drama on virtually all of his points, sans the "we have the same talent" theory.

On 4th and 12 and a minute left, unless a guy, any guy, is WIDE open, you don't go for the home run. That's Jr. High stuff there. Anyone will tell you that. Your job there is to get the first down. Drama said it very well in his first post. Mistakes by the WR, QB, and coaching staff led to that particular play not being made at that moment. IF Bradford catches it and scores, of course I like the outcome, but I still wouldn't have liked the decision. Terrible decision by Carr. Dumb players like Carr and Bradford are bringing the entire football IQ of our city into negative numbers. It's hard to believe we are even having to debate this. This goes right into the "no brainer" catagory.

If bradford had caught the ball you would be hailling carr as the next coming of tom brady, leading his team downfield for a late TD. this WHOLE THING IS BRADFORD'S FAULT, keept the guy who makes a perfect pass, scratch that, about 5 perfect passes in the last 3 minutes of a game with all the pressure on out of your argument. he has enough problems, that last play was not one of them:penalty:

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:21 PM
this has to be the most talked about play ive ever seen here.
also has to be the most frustrating...:bomb:

hey, i made all pro!!!

utahmark
11-08-2005, 09:21 PM
5 out of 10 - that's the number I used! I think it's a little conservative though. Anyway...

... I think the comparison of Moss to Bradford would result in.....no comparison at all. I think he chose Moss not because he had similar ability to Bradford, but to show that even the highly skilled receivers have their misses.

i know. i would just like to see the numbers. or actually i would rather find out where he is getting those numbers. i havent found a site that would give you in depth stats like those.

utahmark
11-08-2005, 09:22 PM
also has to be the most frustrating...:bomb:

hey, i made all pro!!!

congratulations. i didnt know if you had it in ya!

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 09:23 PM
PROPS TO THIS TAKE
why? he makes absoultuley no valid points!!! bradford is open deep, therefor he gets the ball, simple as that

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 10:28 PM
i know. i would just like to see the numbers. or actually i would rather find out where he is getting those numbers. i havent found a site that would give you in depth stats like those.

Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp) keeps track of drops and reasons for QB incompletions among a lot of other stats such as sacks allowed and penalties for OLmen. I would caution you that it seems like they are inconsistant in how quickly they update the information and it will some times change for up to 6 weeks after the game even if it says the game is included 2 days later (I think they get the info on easy stuff like yards and receptions quickly but for things like drops where they have multiple people review game film it takes a while). In other words for looking at things like drop rates, you are better off going to last season overall than trying to look at last week--plus the larger sample size will give a better picture in that case.

SESupergenius
11-09-2005, 12:29 AM
Run-David-Run = Poster of the week.

dalemurphy
11-09-2005, 06:55 AM
Bottom line is that no matter how perfect that pass was, it is still a low completion percentage pass. On 4th down, your job as QB is to keep the drive alive. Why attempt a pass into double-coverage that is a 1 in 3 shot AT BEST? Throw in the fact that it was to Bradford, and it truly begs the question. Meanwhile you have some shorter options that have a much higher chance of keeping the drive alive to give the team a chance to win. Basically Carr struck out swinging when he only needed a single to keep the rally going.


No, Carr threw a third strike but the catcher dropped the pitch and the runner ran to first safely while the winning run scored from third base: PB!

dalemurphy
11-09-2005, 06:57 AM
The real blame falls on the coaching staff. This deep into the 4th season, they still have Corey Bradford starting at Wr. Gaffney and Armstrong both would have made that catch and many much more difficult catches. In my opinion they should be on the field 90% of the time and Bradford should be on another team.

Ibar_Harry
11-09-2005, 11:47 AM
The real blame falls on the coaching staff. This deep into the 4th season, they still have Corey Bradford starting at Wr. Gaffney and Armstrong both would have made that catch and many much more difficult catches. In my opinion they should be on the field 90% of the time and Bradford should be on another team.

Agreed, we should have kept one of the other young receivers like Kasper or Starling - assign your own name.

Porky
11-09-2005, 02:45 PM
No pass that hits a wide reciver in the hands is a low % pass

This may be news to you, but when Carr made the decision to throw it, neither he, nor you (unless your name is God) knew the ball was going to hit him in the hands. Throwing the deep ball to the man with the worst hands on the team is a higher % pass than throwing it shorter to a much better WR is? Good logic there. Good job, Captain obvious.

Runner
11-09-2005, 02:58 PM
Throwing the deep ball to the man with the worst hands on the team is a higher % pass than throwing it shorter to a much better WR is?

This is absolutely true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.

Porky
11-09-2005, 03:21 PM
This is absolutley true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.

At that moment, the only job is to get a 1st down. It's either get a first down or game over. Those were the two choices. People act like this was the first qtr. So, I suppose your contention is that the percentages were higher to go for it all with a lower % play, than to get the first down, and play on. Hmmm, interesting logic there.

Runner
11-09-2005, 03:27 PM
At that moment, the only job is to get a 1st down. It's either get a first down or game over. Those were the two choices. People act like this was the first qtr. So, I suppose your contention is that the percentages were higher to go for it all with a lower % play, than to get the first down, and play on. Hmmm, interesting logic there.

I thought the job was to win the game. Interesting logic there.

Hmmmmm - saying "interesting logic" doesn't add anything to my post either.


In the end, I would have been happy with either pass. The reason I don't condemn the long one is it shows a spark the teram has been missing. Cheers.

RTP2110
11-09-2005, 05:59 PM
Wow, just wow.

I'm no Carr apologist, however I will take his defense on this one play because I don't think he is at fault for this one. There are alot of things that some of you are not taking into consideration. First of all the pass was not thrown into double coverage. The safety never got within 5 yards of Bradford, and he had no effect on the outcome of the play what so ever. If Carr would have thrown to Johnson, and AJ had dropped, everyone would be questioning why he threw to AJ when Bradford was wide open down the sideline. NObody on this board knows what Carr's read progessions were. Also, there's no guarantee that Johnson would have made the catch either. So here's the part where all the long pass/short pass, 1st down/4th down, Bradford's hands/Johnson's hands, and field position & time remaining comparisons come flying out from every corner. Look, Carr has 2, maybe 2.5 seconds in the pocket to make a throw. Do you think he has time to drop back and think, ''Hmm, let's see. AJ at the 30 or Corey inside the 10? Well, let's see it is 4th down....'' Carr saw an open man and threw to him, simple as that. He threw a perfect pass to an open reciever, Bradford dropped it.Really we've had all week to break down a decision that Carr had to make in 3 seconds. Give the guy a break for once. Carr deserves some criticism for his play at times, but I don't think that play was one of those times. The armchair QBs are goin overboard on this one. All IMO, of course.

utahmark
11-09-2005, 07:00 PM
Wow, just wow.

The armchair QBs are goin overboard on this one. All IMO, of course.

no your wrong. this still hasnt been talked about enough.

utahmark
11-09-2005, 07:25 PM
Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp) keeps track of drops and reasons for QB incompletions among a lot of other stats such as sacks allowed and penalties for OLmen. I would caution you that it seems like they are inconsistant in how quickly they update the information and it will some times change for up to 6 weeks after the game even if it says the game is included 2 days later (I think they get the info on easy stuff like yards and receptions quickly but for things like drops where they have multiple people review game film it takes a while). In other words for looking at things like drop rates, you are better off going to last season overall than trying to look at last week--plus the larger sample size will give a better picture in that case.


they only have bradford for 2 drops this year. i know you said it might take a while for the stats to get up so i went back to the 2 years before this. and they have him for 4 drops combined in those 2 years. i dont know for a fact that this is wrong but it sure is suspicious.

im gonna keep an eye on what he does this year. how many drops would you say hes had this year. my guess is 6, could be more. next year we will know if we can trust these stats or not.

RTP2110
11-09-2005, 08:13 PM
no your wrong. this still hasnt been talked about enough.

It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.

real
11-09-2005, 08:14 PM
This is absolutely true if the end goal is completing 1 pass. However, in this case the goal was to eventually score a touchdown. With this team 30 yards in 30 seconds is not the sure thing people are assuming.
it was fourth down.....

utahmark
11-09-2005, 08:41 PM
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.

just joking dude!!!!

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 08:46 PM
they only have bradford for 2 drops this year. i know you said it might take a while for the stats to get up so i went back to the 2 years before this. and they have him for 4 drops combined in those 2 years. i dont know for a fact that this is wrong but it sure is suspicious.

IMO the 4 in 2003-4 isn't off by much, but the important part is Stats, Inc. isn't some kind of Texans' hack organization. They supply stats to NFL.com, ESPN.com, etc. So as long as they have a consistant application of their standard for drops, then you can judge one WR against the field. There is an element of subjectivity to what is a catchable ball, but there is no reason to believe a national scope site like them is biased in Bradford's favor. If anything, I would guessed that as most things, the big names get benefit of the doubt over the no names.

Lucky
11-09-2005, 08:50 PM
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.
I think the :sarcasm: smilie was missing from markbeth's post (BTW, this has been discussed on the radio, and most of the radio guys I've heard think Carr made the correct decision).

I don't think this thread contains enough Carr "facts". Feel free to add on to my list:

Carr doesn't throw a good deep pass.
Carr doesn't throw a good short pass.
Carr doesn't challenge defenses.
Carr doesn't make good decisions.
Carr doesn't move well in the pocket.
Carr leaves the pocket too early.
Carr doesn't go through his progressions.
Carr checks down to Davis too often.
Carr only audibles to a run.
Carr isn't a leader.
Carr doesn't show enough emotion.
Carr is too emotional.
Carr doesn't throw the ball away enough.
Carr doesn't throws the ball away too much.
Carr is afraid of the rush.
Carr holds on to the ball too long.
Carr is a prima donna.
Carr takes too many unnecessary hits.
Carr locks on to his receivers.
Carr won't stay with his receiver long enough.
Carr doesn't have the mental capacity to play QB in the NFL.

But there's more -

Carr doesn't put the toilet seat down.
Carr doesn't lift the toilet seat.
Carr has halitosis.
Carr won't wash behind his ears.
Carr uses all the hot water.
Carr doesn't signal before he turns.
Carr has unmanageable hair.
Carr twirls his hair.
Carr spends too much time with his family.
Carr wears Yankees caps. 'Nuff said.

BuffSoldier
11-09-2005, 08:57 PM
I dont care what nobody says (yeah thats a double negative and a gramatical error but i dont care)... and I mean nobody, as a QB your JOB is to get the ball to the receiver and trust him that if you make a good throw then he will make the play for you. And to answer all of the Aj questions, did you dumbys not see that he was tired, thats why he stopped on that TD pass he shoulda caught on 2nd down. Oh and what if Carr had thrown it to AJ and since AJ was tired he was to drop it? What would yall say then? I dont know why Carr threw it to AJ, it is easy to see that he was tired, oh and look at the replay, Bradford had 2 steps on the CB down the sideline, he woulda had a big play if he could just stop staring down his #1 read. I just think yall are gunna criticize DC no matter what. The only good thing about these stupid threads are that they get my post count up.

Honoring Earl 34
11-09-2005, 08:59 PM
:brickwall The bottom line is every week we have a player step down to screw something up . This has allowed us to be one of the most consistent teams in the league at 1-7 .

Runner
11-09-2005, 09:18 PM
it was fourth down.....

I'll take a big play on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th down. Punt return, kick-off return, fumble, intercept. Heck, I'd even like to win the coin flip going into overtime.

eriadoc
11-10-2005, 10:18 AM
....... I just think yall are gunna criticize DC no matter what .......

That might be the only "fact" that's been posted on this thread :hmmm:

DRAMA
11-10-2005, 12:27 PM
It's funny, because the only place that it's an issue is on these boards. Nobody on the radio, newspaper, etc. is saying anything about it at all.

That could be because our media throws NOTHING but softballs at Casserly and Capers. They have NOT ONCE been held to the fire - not once.

The media doesn't suprise me at all. I think we here in this group discuss things from better perspectives than the media does, IMHO!

Runner
11-10-2005, 01:25 PM
I think the media has to throw softballs because they need to stay tight with the teams.

Yep - half the time they seem to be more PR flacks than reporters. The coaches/teams are definitely in the driver's seat in the relationship. They can easily cut off or just give canned cliché answers to reporters who don't "play ball".

Runner
11-10-2005, 01:39 PM
I work in the media, so

Whew!

I read that first phrase and thought "Oh-oh, I'm going to get blasted".

Demon
11-10-2005, 02:58 PM
I think this season has taken us all by surprise. Who would have thought that the Texans would sink to 1-7 by mid-term. The first year, yes. After the 7-9 last season, it is surreal. Don't worry, the media will be blasting Capers & Co. before this one is done.

mean mark8
11-10-2005, 04:01 PM
Here's the latest Rankings from FoxSports.com. It places blame on Carr, basically saying he's shell-shocked.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5065346

the wonger need food
11-10-2005, 04:49 PM
Here's the latest Rankings from FoxSports.com. It places blame on Carr, basically saying he's shell-shocked.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5065346

From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."

Carr is starting to get the Joey Harrington-like criticism in the national media, and it can't come soon enough. It's amazing he got a pass for as long as he did.

Dubya
11-10-2005, 05:48 PM
Awww, this thread was funny for a while then people stopped being mean to each other.

Porky
11-10-2005, 06:02 PM
From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."

Carr is starting to get the Joey Harrington-like criticism in the national media, and it can't come soon enough. It's amazing he got a pass for as long as he did.

Ahem, some of us have said the same exact things, but of course, we are just Carr bashers, with no idea of what we are talking about. :brickwall

infantrycak
11-10-2005, 06:08 PM
Ahem, some of us have said the same exact things, but of course, we are just Carr bashers, with no idea of what we are talking about. :brickwall

Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.

real
11-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.
It does matter because you are losing a yard in a game of inches, and you lower the morale of your team and give the other team momentum.

mean mark8
11-10-2005, 06:23 PM
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.

Read the quote again:

From FO's Tim Gerheim: "David Carr is now unequivocally part of the problem and not part of the solution. He bails out of the pocket too soon, and he's incomprehensibly loath to throw the ball away in obvious throwaway situations. On one play, he started scrambling immediately after finishing his drop even though the protection was viable, and he ran to his left directly into the rush. He still throws very well, but his pocket presence is abominable."

Pretty much says the guy isn't looking to throw even when he has time. On top of that, he has time but runs into the pass rush. A quality QB steps-up into his protection or slides away from the rush. Our QB runs blindly into it. That is extremely detrimental to the team.

real
11-10-2005, 06:27 PM
I always said the Texans should have gotten Julius Peppers and waited for a REAL franchise quaterback.

infantrycak
11-10-2005, 08:18 PM
Read the quote again:

Pretty much says the guy isn't looking to throw even when he has time. On top of that, he has time but runs into the pass rush. A quality QB steps-up into his protection or slides away from the rush. Our QB runs blindly into it. That is extremely detrimental to the team.

Thanks for rehashing some internet hack (aka someone just like MB members here who decided to have a web site) for me.

Now go back and read what I asked for--any specific examples from the last 4 games that anything the guy said is true in any way that adversely affected the game. Running out of bounds at the LOS simply doesn't hurt the team even if it becomes an unnecessary sack stat. For example, going from 2nd and 5 to 3rd and 5 against Cleveland is the same thing as throwing the ball away--loss of a down, same field position. So other than generalizations which may or may not be true, where are the examples.

chuckm
11-11-2005, 08:44 AM
I always said the Texans should have gotten Julius Peppers and waited for a REAL franchise quaterback.


I knew I heard this somewhere ......

TEXANRED
11-11-2005, 09:28 AM
But wait there's more.....

Carr drinks straight from the milk carton
Carr puts the empty carton back in the fridge
Carr eats the big piece of chicken
Carr scratches himself when companys over
Carr burps
Carr farts

But wait there is even more.....

Its Carrs fault there is no piece in the middle east
Carr cant find binloden
Carr let korea develop nucular weapons
Carr is the reason why there is hunger in the world
Carr is the reason there is global warming
Carr is the reason A&M defense sucks
Carr is the reason our defense sucks

did I miss anything?

Ha.

Kaiser Toro
11-11-2005, 10:06 AM
Carr shoutout the Astros four consecutive games in the World Series
Carr's passes have an effect on Global Warming

Porky
11-11-2005, 10:12 AM
Well I am curious. Can you point to some plays where Carr's decision to hold onto the ball for too long affected the game adversely? There are several plays that have gone down as sacks with zero yards lost or one yard lost, but other than the stat, those don't affect the game any vs. throwing the ball out of bounds. Where are the plays where the game is adversely affected. If the only affect of a QB trying (and often succeeding) to make something happen with his feet is an adverse stat with no real game adverse effect, I am having a hard time seeing the trouble. Please explain to this brick wall.

I'm not only talking about holding the ball too long. He has zero pocket presense. Want an example? Okay, in the last set of downs on the last drive against Jax. I forget if it was 2nd or 3rd down. Carr drops back, and has plenty of time. Holds the ball, and his first read is apparently not open, (which is debatable in itself, as guys have to be wide open, or he won't throw to them) He starts to think about taking off running (there was still no real pressure on him, he has his usual happy feet) and he starts running to his right, looking like a panicked deer being chased by a hunter, which takes him right into two pass rushers, and he is sacked. I blame about half the sacks on Carr. A good QB would have stepped up into the pocket, thus avoiding the rushers (a novel approach) and found his 2nd or 3rd option. He simply has no awareness or presense in the pocket. On top of that, he has trouble reading defenses, finding 2nd or 3rd options, and seems wooden, scripted, and mechanical in the pocket and with his throwing motion. He isn't at all "instinctive", and the coaches trust him so much they even let him audible from a running play designed to go right, to one designed to go left. Maybe by his 10th season, they will let him feed himself, and change his own diapers too. His teammates think Zach Weigert is the team leader on offense, and even Steve Mckinney threw him under the bus on his weekly radio show.

But, no other than that, I think he is darn near perfect. :tomato:

SESupergenius
11-11-2005, 10:24 AM
Wooden, or surprised he has time? Why would Carr throw to someone that is covered?? I guess you want more interceptions because these WR's are not going to fight for ANY ball, much less make a play.

DRAMA
11-11-2005, 10:30 AM
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Houston: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to David Carr. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said on the NFL version of the Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."

Eight families had sued Drama, Porky, Vinny, etc.., claiming Carr hatred violates the constitutional separation of objectivity and Texan bias. The local BBS trial concluded days before last Sunday's Jacksonville game, but no ruling had been issued.

Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was simply trying to point out that "anti-Carr actions have consequences."

"David Carr is tolerant and loving and can throw the deep ball even though our receivers can't catch, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Houston, I recommend they call on Brady Quinn. Maybe he can help them."


Seriously, we should completely overhaul, and I mean COMPLETELY (Except for maybe Pitts) the OL and give David another year to see how he does with some protection. Let's open the offense and see where we go. By this time next year, we should know where we are....or not??

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 10:31 AM
I'm not only talking about holding the ball too long. He has zero pocket presense. Want an example? Okay, in the last set of downs on the last drive against Jax. I forget if it was 2nd or 3rd down. Carr drops back, and has plenty of time. Holds the ball, and his first read is apparently not open, (which is debatable in itself, as guys have to be wide open, or he won't throw to them) He starts to think about taking off running (there was still no real pressure on him, he has his usual happy feet) and he starts running to his right, looking like a panicked deer being chased by a hunter, which takes him right into two pass rushers, and he is sacked.

Hmmm, would that be in the things I saw due to preconceived notions Jags game? Carr was touched on two plays in the last drive--once at 2:46 on 1st & 10 when Wand gets roasted and Carr without moving has the ball knocked out of his hand--Bruener quickly recovered the ball because he was laying on the ground behind his man who is about to hit Carr. The 2nd time occurs at 1:11 on 3rd & 4 when Wade and Wells allow the LDE and a LB to pincer into the backfield. Evidently the deer you are familiar with (by the way who hunts deer by chasing them?) only panic one or two steps, because Carr steps forward into the pocket to allow Wade and Wells more room to deal with their guys--they still don't get it done and he is hit from behind and sacked.

I blame about half the sacks on Carr.

If those were definitions of sacks that were Carr's fault, then you should probably go ahead and blame them all on Carr.

He isn't at all "instinctive", and the coaches trust him so much they even let him audible from a running play designed to go right, to one designed to go left. Maybe by his 10th season, they will let him feed himself, and change his own diapers too.

It is hilarious IMO that anyone who thinks the coaching staff should be fired would use the coaches judgment as an indication of anything. These coaches also have Bradford as a starting WR, put Riley at LT, let pro-bowler Foley go as not talented enough for the team. Yeah, I am going to rely on what they think.

BigBull17
11-11-2005, 10:31 AM
Yeah because he has a dependable pocket ALL the time......

Porky
11-11-2005, 10:37 AM
Wooden, or surprised he has time? Why would Carr throw to someone that is covered?? I guess you want more interceptions because these WR's are not going to fight for ANY ball, much less make a play.

What does wooden, and the amount of time he has, have anything to do with each other? Good QB's throw to covered WR's all the time. How many times does a WR have a 5 yard advantage on a DB in the NFL? Do you even watch any other games? Lastly, go back and look at the tape, and see how AJ was breaking open against zone coverage, when Carr threw his prayer pass.

David Carr = John Yawle

MorKnolle
11-11-2005, 10:40 AM
But wait there's more.....

Carr drinks straight from the milk carton
Carr puts the empty carton back in the fridge
Carr eats the big piece of chicken
Carr scratches himself when companys over
Carr burps
Carr farts

But wait there is even more.....

Its Carrs fault there is no piece in the middle east
Carr cant find binloden
Carr let korea develop nucular weapons
Carr is the reason why there is hunger in the world
Carr is the reason there is global warming
Carr is the reason A&M defense sucks
Carr is the reason our defense sucks

did I miss anything?

Ha.

Quality humor

Vinny
11-11-2005, 10:43 AM
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Houston: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to David Carr. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said on the NFL version of the Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."

Eight families had sued Drama, Porky, Vinny, etc.., claiming Carr hatred violates the constitutional separation of objectivity and Texan bias. The local BBS trial concluded days before last Sunday's Jacksonville game, but no ruling had been issued.

Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was simply trying to point out that "anti-Carr actions have consequences."

"David Carr is tolerant and loving and can throw the deep ball even though our receivers can't catch, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Houston, I recommend they call on Brady Quinn. Maybe he can help them."
lol: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14382

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 10:47 AM
Lastly, go back and look at the tape, and see how AJ was breaking open against zone coverage, when Carr threw his prayer pass.

Exactly, AJ "was breaking open" when Carr threw a perfect pass to Bradford--in other words when Carr was making his 1st read on AJ, AJ was not open and so Carr went to his 2nd read and found an open Bradford.

Vinny
11-11-2005, 10:48 AM
Exactly, AJ "was breaking open" when Carr threw a perfect pass to Bradford--in other words when Carr was making his 1st read on AJ, AJ was not open and so Carr went to his 2nd read and found an open Bradford.Good QB's project who is open based on reads...but I'll digress....I can't talk about Carr on this mb without hate mail.

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 10:55 AM
Good QB's project who is open based on reads...but I'll digress....I can't talk about Carr on this mb without hate mail.

The problem with projecting the opening on that play is it might not have happened at all. The safety was looking right at Carr (hence the hand on AJ's shoulder to keep track of him) and comes off AJ as Carr throws to Bradford. Would the same thing have happened if Carr was looking at AJ?--almost certainly not. Not saying AJ might not have still been able to make the reception, but what we saw with the safety pulling up and AJ coming wide open wasn't the real coverage. Wow, talk about one overanalyzed play.

Porky seems to me you have squarely entered the spin zone if that "description" of Carr is your take on what happened on the last drive of the Jags game.

SESupergenius
11-11-2005, 10:58 AM
Do you even watch any other games?
David Carr = John Yawle
This is BS! You guys can open up these little personal attacks without any moderation, but God forbid if someone else does it.

I keep hearing the weak argument that Carr can't throw to a receiver that isn't covered. Well, DO YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAMES??? (there, you're it!) Did you not see Carr lay it into Bradfords hands with the CB right on his tail? Guess not for you arguments sake. Did you not see that crucial 3rd down play a couple of games ago where Carr darted it between two defenders for a 1st down?? Guess not. Did you see that play where Carr put it onto Bradfords numbers and the defender wrestled it away?? Did you happen to see Rivers put two hands a ball, only to have it knocked away feabily by a defender? Naw, guess not.

I think you better layoff the food into your Porky face while the plays are going on, you are missing them.

Vinny
11-11-2005, 10:59 AM
Wow, talk about one overanalyzed play.I've only made a couple of comments on it myself but this play has indeed been beaten to death.

SESupergenius
11-11-2005, 11:00 AM
Good QB's project who is open based on reads...but I'll digress....I can't talk about Carr on this mb without hate mail.
Ya and just a couple of plays earlier, Carr "projected" Andre to no give up and that play to the deep fade towards the sideline. Andre said he gave up and rightfully Carr put it where it he was supposed to go.

Another weak argument by the Blind Man Carr Hater Group, or BMCHG for short.

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 11:05 AM
OK folks, let's not let this devolve to where posts have to start getting deleted. Smarting off is generally tolerated--direct insults are not.

DRAMA
11-11-2005, 11:13 AM
Look, let's call a spade a spade. For whatever reason, WHATEVER reason, Carr is an average quarterback right now. Will he be great? Maybe. Has he been great? No? Will he be our future? Maybe.

These are just things we don't know. Technically, from a football standpoint, Carr made a perfect pass. Technically, from a football standpoint, he makes poor reads. But right now, even though I'll be called a Carr hater, David Carr is simply an average QB on a very poor football team....and that's ALL we can judge him on.

Kaiser Toro
11-11-2005, 11:15 AM
Ya and just a couple of plays earlier, Carr "projected" Andre to no give up and that play to the deep fade towards the sideline. Andre said he gave up and rightfully Carr put it where it he was supposed to go.

Another weak argument by the Blind Man Carr Hater Group, or BMCHG for short.

Solid post. :rolleyes: The Texans are 1-7 and our QB is at best only 1/53 part of the problem. If his contract was worth 1/53 of the total salary we could possibly build a team around him

Lucky
11-11-2005, 11:17 AM
From FO's Tim Gerheim:
Who's Tim Gerheim?

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 11:27 AM
Who's Tim Gerheim?

He is a law student at UT. His role at footballoutsiders is "TIM GERHEIM fulfills his new role of assistant grand poobah of layout and chief grammar inspector for Football Outsiders." Clearly a QB guru.

Vinny
11-11-2005, 11:34 AM
I've never thought highly of Football Outsider's breakdowns.

Lucky
11-11-2005, 11:38 AM
"TIM GERHEIM fulfills his new role of assistant grand poobah of layout and chief grammar inspector for Football Outsiders."
I applied for the poobah position. They said my poo looked fine, but my bah was lacking. Bah Humbug.

Honoring Earl 34
11-11-2005, 11:49 AM
:tv: As far as the great Carr debate goes ... its just a matter of time before it all comes out in the wash .
The whole argument seems to be who's responsible for Carr's regression .
Carr allies list for regression

1.OL
2. Coaches
3. Offense
4. Recievers

Carr Critics list
1. OL
2. Carr
3. Coaching
4. Recievers

ArlingtonTexan
11-11-2005, 12:30 PM
As far as the Carr debate goes, it should be this:

We don't know what we have in Carr. He has never had a o-line that could block a pop-warner league d-line, let alone a professional d-line. He has never had any decent WRs (minus AJ when actually catches the ball). His coaches come to game together on the short bus, helmets already strapped on. Carr makes bad decisions. He'll get happy feet sometimes shortly after the ball is snapped, (which he has right to as far as I'm concerned). He'll force throws, give up on plays too early because he's afraid he's gonna get sacked and lose yards, and he knows better than all of us how hard those are to come by. He tries to make too much happen by himself. Has he regressed, or is he only playing as well as the team around him? No one can give a accurate, fair, or unbiased opinion on how carr has done, because NO ONE KNOWS. Unfortunately, we'll never know unless we put a complete team out on the field.

I posted this elsewhere, but it fits

IMO, this is the most unforgiveable aspect of what going on with the Texans. I can handle the team picking wrong guys, players getting injuired etc. But running a guy out as QB for 50-60 games and having to literally guess at what type player you have, is shameful. It is bad from a business standpoint and an onfield standpoint. As dysfunctional as the Lions have been they at least put Joey Harrington in a position to know he can't be "the guy."

Porky
11-11-2005, 12:30 PM
Look, let's call a spade a spade. For whatever reason, WHATEVER reason, Carr is an average quarterback right now.

Average? I would love it if Carr were average. Average QB's don't sack themselves more than the kid at Randall's. He is about to break Strahan's single season sack record. Avg QB's have more yards than my lawnboy. Average QB's don't consistently make dumb plays, and can read coverages better than the 4th grade level. If only he was average. No, he has a long ways to go to be average. He was nearing average the first half of last year, and then the bottom dropped out.

TEXANRED
11-11-2005, 12:33 PM
Upon further review it is all Carr's fault. If he would have ran down field and placed the ball in Corey "Don't throw it to stonehands" Bradford hands, then maybe, just maybe, he would have been able to hang on to the ball.

This is a bad team having a bad year. An average team that is having a good year will find ways of winning. Take the patriots, average offense, average defense, no running game, average recievers. But some one is always there to make a play, whether it is a clutch catch, throw, pick or fumble recovery.

What do we do, fumble the fumble recovery, drop the pick, miss the throw. No one is stepping up to make plays. Thats everyone. The defense, the offense, the recievers, the running backs, recievers, QB, o-line, d-line, linebackers, DB's, safteys, Head coach, assistant coach, assistant to the assistant coach, GM, owner, my mom, your mom, everybody's mom. No one is going to come out of this year smelling like roses.

Honoring Earl 34
11-11-2005, 12:41 PM
:texflag: What needs to come out is ... why are things so simple and controlled for Carr ? Who dropped the ball on the OL ? Did Capers do a decent coaching job with OK players before or did Capers take good players and make them bad ?

Lucky
11-11-2005, 01:03 PM
...He was nearing average the first half of last year, and then the bottom dropped out.
In your opinion, why did the bottom drop out?

Porky
11-11-2005, 01:51 PM
In your opinion, why did the bottom drop out?

That's sort of the $20,000 question, isn't it? I don't know, but I suspect that teams just caught on to what his strengths were, and went to more cover 2, etc., which he has trouble reading. I wish I had a solid 100% answer. All you have to do is look at his stats from the 1st half, to the 2nd half of last year. The stats don't tell the whole story, but it's easy to see there was a dramatic difference.

mean mark8
11-11-2005, 01:53 PM
Thanks for rehashing some internet hack (aka someone just like MB members here who decided to have a web site) for me.

Now go back and read what I asked for--any specific examples from the last 4 games that anything the guy said is true in any way that adversely affected the game. Running out of bounds at the LOS simply doesn't hurt the team even if it becomes an unnecessary sack stat. For example, going from 2nd and 5 to 3rd and 5 against Cleveland is the same thing as throwing the ball away--loss of a down, same field position. So other than generalizations which may or may not be true, where are the examples.

One example? Against the Browns this year, 3rd and 10, he had 3 receivers running deep routes, all were under the secondary and well behind the LBs. All were open by NFL standards and an intentional "short" throw to any of them would have been a completion for a first down. He received mild pressure from his right side, the defensive end speed rushed Wade. All Carr had to do was step up into the pocket and look downfield to make the throw. Instead, he instantly takes off running to his left. The rest of the pass protection breaks down because they don't know where their QB is and in what direction to try to block their respective men. Carr runs out of bounds for a 7 yard gain. Translation, 1st down throw becomes a 7 yard gain leading to 4th down punt. Would the receiver have dropped the ball for an incompletion and hold up your theory? We'll never know because we have a QB without pocket presence.

Don't start up with the, "Our O-line sucks so bad he has to run on every play," stuff because that just supports the fact he is scared in the pocket. Whether he is rightly scared due to the pounding he took early in the season doesn't matter. You can't have someone without confidence in the pocket at the QB position. Over the last 3 or so games, rarely have you seen the entire pocket collapse on him. He gets speed rushed by the ends and rather than step-up away from the pressure into the pocket, he holds the ball behind him in the classic QB pose to get it swatted away. On both of the sacks on the last drive against the Jags, he fumbled the ball. Was it because he took a devastating blow or because he held the ball out to get swatted from him?

Runner
11-11-2005, 01:54 PM
That's sort of the $20,000 question, isn't it? I don't know, but I suspect that teams just caught on to what his strengths were, and went to more cover 2, etc., which he has trouble reading. I wish I had a solid 100% answer. All you have to do is look at his stats from the 1st half, to the 2nd half of last year. The stats don't tell the whole story, but it's easy to see there was a dramatic difference.

I'll start by saying "I don't know" also. The drop-off seemed to be across the board though. For instance last year Wade looked a lot better in the first half of the season than the last half. At the time I thought that was due to the lingering effects of his (ankle?) injury, but after seeing him this year it may have been something else.

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 02:13 PM
One example? Against the Browns this year, 3rd and 9, he had 3 receivers running deep routes, all were under the secondary and well behind the LBs. All were open by NFL standards and an intentional "short" throw to any of them would have been a completion for a first down. He received mild pressure from his right side, the defensive end speed rushed Wade. All Carr had to do was step up into the pocket and look downfield to make the throw. Instead, he instantly takes off running to his left. The rest of the pass protection breaks down because they don't know where their QB is and in what direction to try to block their respective men. Carr runs out of bounds for about a 2 yard loss. Translation, 1st down throw becomes a 2 yard loss. Would the receiver have dropped the ball for an incompletion and hold up your theory? We'll never know because we have a QB without pocket presence.

There isn't a play that comes close to looking like what you just described in the Full Play by Play at NFL.com. Can you identify what you are talking about--even a guess of quarter anything else since you were able to see and remember everything all the WR's, OL and QB were doing? There is a 3rd and 10 where Carr gets 7 scrambling to the left. There is also a 2nd and 20 play (that the game film doesn't show the coverage on the WR's at all) where Carr could have stayed in the pocket longer but ended up running left for a 1 yd gain but would have had a bunch more if DD hadn't whiffed a block. That was the play immediately before the throw to Gaffney over the middle for a 1st down.

mean mark8
11-11-2005, 02:19 PM
There isn't a play that comes close to looking like what you just described in the Full Play by Play at NFL.com. Can you identify what you are talking about--even a guess of quarter anything else since you were able to see and remember everything all the WR's, OL and QB were doing? There is a 3rd and 10 where Carr gets 7 scrambling to the left. There is also a 2nd and 20 play (that the game film doesn't show the coverage on the WR's at all) where Carr could have stayed in the pocket longer but ended up running left for a 1 yd gain but would have had a bunch more if DD hadn't whiffed a block. That was the play immediately before the throw to Gaffney over the middle for a 1st down.

My bad, he got 7 yards when we could have had a first down. Might note, he fumbles the ball out of bounds which I didn't see from my seats at the game as it was on the opposite side of the field. Also, on the play before, which I don't remember from being at the game, he ran up the middle for 1 yard on 2nd and 11.

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 02:27 PM
My bad, he got 7 yards when we could have had a first down. Might note, he fumbles the ball out of bounds which I didn't see from my seats at the game as it was on the opposite side of the field.

Well, I will just compliment you on your ability to watch Carr, the OL and all 3 WR's to know they were all open (amazing that would happen, but OK) all in real time at the game. Be nice if there was an example we could actually go look at rather than rely on a memory and opinion that all 3 WR's were open. Of course if they were, then Carr should have thrown the ball.

Also, on the play before, which I don't remember from being at the game, he ran up the middle for 1 yard on 2nd and 11.

Wade let the LDE in almost unimpeded. Carr broke an arm tackle from him. The RDE was inside Pitts and the NT collapsed the middle of the pocket--basically a stampede to Carr. Carr avoided the NT to get back to the LOS and avoid the sack.

mean mark8
11-11-2005, 02:36 PM
Well, I will just compliment you on your ability to watch Carr, the OL and all 3 WR's to know they were all open (amazing that would happen, but OK) all in real time at the game. Be nice if there was an example we could actually go look at rather than rely on a memory and opinion that all 3 WR's were open. Of course if they were, then Carr should have thrown the ball.

Yeah, I know you get a much better vantage point from tv rather than mid-level seats in the end-zone.

infantrycak
11-11-2005, 02:38 PM
Yeah, I know you get a much better vantage point from tv rather than mid-level seats in the end-zone.

I was at the game as I have been at every home game thank you very much. Personally I find it impossible to watch 3 WR's, the QB and OL all at the same time in real time but hey more power to you if you want to claim that ability.

the wonger need food
11-12-2005, 04:10 PM
wow...I didn't think we could get this low.

The season is still young.... plenty of room to fall.

I hear Mr. Couch is still looking for a job....

http://myspace-570.vo.llnwd.net/00306/07/58/306408570_m.gif

the wonger need food
11-12-2005, 10:04 PM
Me neither. Very pathetic and immature.....

I wish we could talk football.:rolleyes:

Lighten up Francis... it's all in fun.