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nunusguy
11-07-2005, 12:39 PM
"One of the more remarkable parts of this season is that the Texans haven't quit."
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3443149
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Article by the Chronicle writer who suggests that the Texans' production has
met its potential - yesterdays effort was about as good as it gets for the team and if, for example, Bradford couldn't make the play at the end of the game, its not for lack of effort.
If Justice's premise is true, then besides blaming the coaches for not assembling and manageing talent, should we maybe give them some credit for motivating the existing talent to play to the full level of its potential ?
I dunno....as my memory fades away as the decades pass, I still seem to recall that it wasn't the HC that motivated me and my teammates to get up for a game as much as the assistant coachs. Whatever we might think about Capers, maybe the Texans have a pretty good group of assistant coaches ?

Marcus
11-07-2005, 01:09 PM
Even as the Texans said the usual stuff about being disappointed and continuing to fight and improve, they surely know otherwise. Until they get better players, they won't play better than they did in Sunday's 21-14 loss to Jacksonville.

Maybe it's the coaches who'll get blown out after the season, but this defeat wasn't about coaching. It was about not having enough talent.
lol: Now that has got to be one bitter tasting pill to swallow for those of you card carrying members of the "we have plenty of talent, but the coaches aren't using it right" club.

Sacrilege! Treason! Burn him at the stake!

:goodnight

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 01:25 PM
I think Capers is/has been a good coach, but for whatever reason the players don't seem motivated anymore. Personally, I think that motivation should come from the players themselves moreso than the coaches. If a player can't motivate himself to go and play balls out for three hours on Sunday to earn a couple million dollars a year then I don't know what else a coach can say. If they can't be man enough and have enough pride in themselves to go out and compete with everything they have then they don't deserve to be on the team. Granted the coaching system can contribute to that, but I think the players should not have to look to the head coach to get motivation to go out and play hard every week, and the effort in many of them has been questionable at best recently.

Grid
11-07-2005, 01:56 PM
We do lack talent..and no one here will deny that.

Even the people who say "we have the talent, we just dont have the coaches".. acknowledge that we are lacking in talent.

Specifically, im talking about the Oline. No one with eyes to see would say that we have enough talent on the Oline... and that lack of talent and depth has been a big contributor to our downfall this season..and definatly to our loss to jacksonville this sunday.

We actually played better than jacksonville until we lost Hodgedon(sp?)..which is a bit surprising. But that is the point where I remember things turning for the worse. Our protection began to fall apart.. our offense wasnt able to move the ball anymore.

Fact of the matter is.. we HAVE the talent at WR.. we HAVE the talent at RB.. but we lack talent in a few crucial areas. Specifically.. Oline, TE, and LB. Id say that we could use another quality CB as well.

What im trying to say is.. we have alot of talent.. but we are missing a FEW key players at key positions. This is one offseason's work for a competent coaching staff. We could be a solid and competitive team next season if we had a better coaching staff right now.

That isnt gonna happen right now though...we have to wait till the end of the year..and then we have to hope that McNair will do a mass culling..and not just fire a couple guys. We need a fresh start, and we need someone who can find and sign the talent we need to fill those key positions.

Bullfan
11-07-2005, 02:08 PM
Don't believe everything that you read or hear in the press. They don't always know what they are talking about. There IS talent on this team, it has been evident in many games before this year. Our coaches may have talent too, but, they have lost this team and it's time for the coaches to move on and let a new set of coaches see what they can do this team.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 02:19 PM
We do lack talent..and no one here will deny that.

Fact of the matter is.. we HAVE the talent at WR.. we HAVE the talent at RB.. but we lack talent in a few crucial areas. Specifically.. Oline, TE, and LB. Id say that we could use another quality CB as well.

What im trying to say is.. we have alot of talent.. but we are missing a FEW key players at key positions. This is one offseason's work for a competent coaching staff. We could be a solid and competitive team next season if we had a better coaching staff right now.



I agree with you for the most part. I'm not sure our TE is necessarily a lack of talent or more how they are being used. Our staff decided to move towards the big, blocking TEs and that's all they've been used for. Breuner is one of the best in the league in blocking and Murphy seems like he is in the same mold and can probably catch a little better, and Rivers has been a little iffy in the few chances he's been given, but I think he can be a decent receiving TE with more experience/opportunities. I do agree that we need a couple upgrades at OL, a better pass-rushing LB (if we stay in a 3-4 otherwise get a 4-3 DE or two), and then another athletic CB that can cover people. Buchanon is fast but has been iffy on tackling (moreso earlier in the year) and plays too far off people, and Faggins isn't fast but stays with people reasonably well.

mexican_texan
11-07-2005, 03:12 PM
Buchanon sucks because Hoke isn't using him to his strengths (passing out Hurricane-ade...er...Gatorade and towels), DD is the only one being played enough, but we need a 2 or 3 back system like capers said he wanted last year. AJ should run more routes that use his speed and size and audibles should not be the same for the whole game, or like Palmer's audibles, all tenure.

Double Barrel
11-07-2005, 03:33 PM
We do lack talent..and no one here will deny that.

Even the people who say "we have the talent, we just dont have the coaches".. acknowledge that we are lacking in talent.

Specifically, im talking about the Oline. No one with eyes to see would say that we have enough talent on the Oline... and that lack of talent and depth has been a big contributor to our downfall this season..and definatly to our loss to jacksonville this sunday.

We actually played better than jacksonville until we lost Hodgedon(sp?)..which is a bit surprising. But that is the point where I remember things turning for the worse. Our protection began to fall apart.. our offense wasnt able to move the ball anymore.

Fact of the matter is.. we HAVE the talent at WR.. we HAVE the talent at RB.. but we lack talent in a few crucial areas. Specifically.. Oline, TE, and LB. Id say that we could use another quality CB as well.

What im trying to say is.. we have alot of talent.. but we are missing a FEW key players at key positions. This is one offseason's work for a competent coaching staff. We could be a solid and competitive team next season if we had a better coaching staff right now.

That isnt gonna happen right now though...we have to wait till the end of the year..and then we have to hope that McNair will do a mass culling..and not just fire a couple guys. We need a fresh start, and we need someone who can find and sign the talent we need to fill those key positions.

What he said. :thumbup

The coaches helped pick the players, right?

Pick your poison: 'coaches don't inspire good players' - or - 'coaches picked bad players to begin with'. Either way, you're still swallowing a dose of 1-7 no matter what your perspective is.

beerlover
11-07-2005, 04:01 PM
but we lack talent in a few crucial areas. Specifically.. Oline, TE, and LB. Id say that we could use another quality CB as well.

also add both Safety positions. CC Brown has done an outstanding job given where & how far he has come, but lets face it he would be a back-up SS on most teams with good physical defenses. Coleman is like a mirror image of Buchanon that does not bode well for run support or big hits over the middle.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 04:32 PM
also add both Safety positions. CC Brown has done an outstanding job given where & how far he has come, but lets face it he would be a back-up SS on most teams with good physical defenses. Coleman is like a mirror image of Buchanon that does not bode well for run support or big hits over the middle.

I think C.C. Brown would be a decent FS and is playing out of position at SS. He should be a backup for most teams, he is a rookie and was a 6th round draft choice, so give him some time and put him at his better position.

mean mark8
11-07-2005, 04:51 PM
I don't care who you want to blame. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league. So if we don't have the talent how are we going to get it? Is this a Casserly screw-up or a Capers screw-up? It is totally bogus to say that this staff is getting the most out of a bunch of "over-achievers." We are 1-7 with the 3rd highest payroll in the entire league. Doesn't look like anyone is motivated or playing well to me.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 04:53 PM
I don't care who you want to blame. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league. So if we don't have the talent how are we going to get it? Is this a Casserly screw-up or a Capers screw-up? It is totally bogus to say that this staff is getting the most out of a bunch of "over-achievers." We are 1-7 with the 3rd highest payroll in the entire league. Doesn't look like anyone is motivated or playing well to me.I agree with you about Casserly and want him to see the door too but much of that has to do with the fact that we have to overpay FA's to come here in our early years. Players don't come to expansion teams for the playoff games.

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 04:59 PM
Which is why I want Casserly out. If we were supposed to build through the draft then we shouldnt have wasted all those picks. I like Babin a lot, but not enough to give up those draft picks. Buchanons picks were mind boggling. We could have built up through the drafts and not trade down, traded up or traded away picks. We should have done our homework and picked players that would play for us and would not be playing 1st round salaries for them. Everyone want us to get a Young or a Bush this year but I'm telling you people, we can not keep paying top 10 salaries each year to one player. Somewhere down the road it eats us up in getting FA talent.

nunusguy
11-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Buchanons picks were mind boggling. We could have built up through the drafts and not trade down, traded up or traded away picks. We should have done our homework and picked players that would play for us and would not be playing 1st round salaries for them.
Its really maddening with the inconsistancy of how they invest these very valuable Draft picks. We wisely manage our resources and get this Hodgdon kid out of Arizona State with a mere 5th round pick who will of course require a modest cap charge and salary expenditure, then like a spendthrift
we squander this years 2 & 3 on Buchanan.

Marcus
11-07-2005, 07:18 PM
Fact of the matter is.. we HAVE the talent at WR.. we HAVE the talent at RB.. but we lack talent in a few crucial areas. Specifically.. Oline, TE, and LB. Id say that we could use another quality CB as well.

What im trying to say is.. we have alot of talent.. but we are missing a FEW key players at key positions. This is one offseason's work for a competent coaching staff. We could be a solid and competitive team next season if we had a better coaching staff right now.

Completely unrealistic!

Addressing 3, maybe 4 areas where talent is lacking, is going to take more than one offseason to address. It won't make a bit of difference what new coaching staff is brought in.

That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

. . . then it's "Fire Everyone" all over again. :crazy:

I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in here. They're ****ed right from the start.

Lucky
11-07-2005, 08:08 PM
If Justice's premise is true, then besides blaming the coaches for not assembling and manageing talent, should we maybe give them some credit for motivating the existing talent to play to the full level of its potential ?
I don't want to bash the coaches here, but it was Seth Payne calling out his teammates (behind closed doors) that turned the effort around. Credit where credit is due.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 08:35 PM
I don't want to bash the coaches here, but it was Seth Payne calling out his teammates (behind closed doors) that turned the effort around. Credit where credit is due.I donno...I think it has more to do with Babin and Walker coming back.

angeltexus
11-07-2005, 08:56 PM
G-funk yeah, but come on Babin. When have you guys seen Babin making a crucial play. Hes like a bad song that gets no air time on TV. I would really love for him to be signed by the Cardinal because thats the only team he could start for..

powda
11-07-2005, 09:00 PM
babin played with a lot of intensity when he was in yesterday. having not been on the field seems to have remotivated him.

tex
11-07-2005, 09:06 PM
That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

. . . then it's "Fire Everyone" all over again.


You hit the nail on the head on this one.It takes a long time to build a team from the ground up.

eriadoc
11-07-2005, 11:39 PM
lol: Now that has got to be one bitter tasting pill to swallow for those of you card carrying members of the "we have plenty of talent, but the coaches aren't using it right" club.

Sacrilege! Treason! Burn him at the stake!

:goodnight

As others have said in this thread, we are lacking talent in certain areas, but we do have plenty of talent on this team. Where I pinpoint the coaching staff is a couple key areas, that I've mentioned elsewhere on this board. First, our coaches do not get quality contributions from less-than-premium talent, particularly on the offensive line. Sure, guys like AJ and D-Rob excel, but they were high first round picks - aren't they supposed to do well? When teams like SD, Indy, and Cincy (just to name a few) plug in guys on the O-line that weren't drafted terribly high and no one outside of their hometown has heard of, why do they get adequate production from these guys, yet we can't seem to put together a cohesively functioning group. Take a look at the depth charts for some other teams and see what they're running with. Not every player can be a star. The good teams get solid production from the role players. Second, our coaches seem to miss on quite a few guys. I use the word "seem" here because maybe it is just my perception. But when guys like Foley, McCree, and Kenny Wright leave here and go contribute meaningfully to other teams, I wonder why we couldn't get that from them. I exempt Posey from this list because he produced well while he was here and left of his own accord, if I recall correctly. There's also the Clark Haggins non-signing. He worked out for us, the coaches didn't want him, and Pittsburgh is getting great production from him. And they run a 3-4 defense. It makes me wonder who is currently on our roster that could leave here and provide meaningful contributions to other NFL teams. There are a few obvious ones and then there are a bunch that people will debate. However, even if you think "XYZ" player couldn't start for another team, you probably thought the same thing about some of our former players that are now starting for other teams, for whatever reason. Finally, there are the players that we believe the coaching staff is pretty directly responsible for obtaining that don't seem to be living up to the hype - Babin (I'm hopeful still), Buchanon (hopeful still), Wand (scouted at Sr. Bowl, taken in 3rd(?) round), Bradford (signed via FA twice now and keeps getting trotted out there), Wade (still hopeful he'll succeed in a better system here next year), and TJ (really should be doing more for where he was drafted, IMO).

Anyway ... yes, we're short on talent, but it's not as bad as the production would indicate to this point.

beerlover
11-07-2005, 11:56 PM
ACCORDING TO CASSERLY, the coaches have major input and basicly hand pick the Roster via the draft, free agency and roster cuts :brickwall :texans:

I'm not trying to form judgement, just the facts and if this is in fact true Capers crew is lame duck at the very least.

Grid
11-08-2005, 03:29 AM
Completely unrealistic!

Addressing 3, maybe 4 areas where talent is lacking, is going to take more than one offseason to address. It won't make a bit of difference what new coaching staff is brought in.

That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

. . . then it's "Fire Everyone" all over again. :crazy:

I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in here. They're ****ed right from the start.


whoa there cowboy. Addressing 3 to 4 areas over an offseason isnt unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination. This whole "fix ONE weakness and live with the others" bull**** is what losing teams do.

Are you saying that it would UNREALISTIC for us to sign an LB and a couple Olinemen from FA.. then draft a TE and a CB? or some other similar combination? That isnt exactly high fantasy bud.

You are probably one of those people who feels we should have a playmaker at every position. You dont need that.. all you need is competence.. a good player that does his job and contributes to the win. We dont have to sign Pace and Runyan, Gates, Bailey, and Freeney.. to be a good team.

The reason it is ONE OFFSEASON'S work for a competent coaching staff is because a competent coaching staff would not have given two picks to get Buchanan.... they would have seen his weaknesses and paid what he is worth. A competent coaching staff would have got at least one quality pass rusher by now. A competent coaching staff would have made our Oline priority numero uno after 2002.

I doubt a NEW coaching staff could fix all this in one season.. because even if they did manage to sign good players to fill all those positions.. they would still have to deal with the fact that the rest of the team is going to have to learn a new system, and just a new way of doing things in general. Maybe in 2 or 3.

Malloy
11-08-2005, 03:59 AM
That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in here. They're ****ed right from the start.

Thank you! :)

Double Barrel
11-08-2005, 09:12 AM
Completely unrealistic!

Addressing 3, maybe 4 areas where talent is lacking, is going to take more than one offseason to address. It won't make a bit of difference what new coaching staff is brought in.

That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

. . . then it's "Fire Everyone" all over again. :crazy:

I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in here. They're ****ed right from the start.

I bet a new coaching staff would supercharge this team to be better than 1-7 at mid-season, though.

We've got offensive weapons. All we need is a cohesive, consistent line. That is doable in one off-season. Right? (Sure we could use a TE, but it's not a must have to put points on the board.) O-line is the key.

On D, a solid safety and another LB could provide us with enough depth to turn things around. Quit this soft cover 2 coverage. It doesn't work with a three man front. Our D is very predictable right now. Playcalling and schemes are coaching.

Special teams seems to be the only area of the team that we see consistent positive growth.

A new staff making good personel decisions and implementing an aggressive winning philosophy could make ALL the difference, IMO.

Besides, 99% of people gave Coach Capers well over 3 seasons before the revolt (the Fire Capers Club didn't get any members until well into this season). So a new coach has a good 3-4 years before the next revolution starts. ;)

Marcus
11-08-2005, 09:18 AM
Are you saying that it would UNREALISTIC for us to sign an LB and a couple Olinemen from FA.. then draft a TE and a CB? or some other similar combination? That isnt exactly high fantasy bud.


It IS your fantasy, and it IS UNREALISTIC. Just taking your example. Given the team's salary cap situation, you actually think think it's possible to sign two quality Olinemen and a quality LB from free agency? Only if you're the only team in the league. There is going to be 31 other teams bidding for those players, and whoever gets them will probably be overpaying them. I'm not talking about journeymen 'castoffs'. We have too many of them right now, and overpaying them as if they are actually quality players.

Now, I will admit, wholeheartedly, that the mess they are in, is the result of Casserly/Capers/staff (whoever)'s missteps, poor draft decisions, poor FA decisions, etc, and they all need to be thrown out, despite that '5-year plan'. Results are the only thing that matters.

But don't delude your yourself into thinking that it can all be fixed overnight. Realistically, you're probably looking at another (gasp) 5 year plan. And forget about free agency. It's nothing but a shortcut that comes back to haunt you in the long run, Mr. Casserly. Just build through the draft. Sign a FA after you become a good team to put you over the hump, not before.

This is why many people don't like to admit that their team lacks talent. Because to admit that, is to admit that it will take way more than 1 year to fix. Whereas, if you just think it's coaching, just fire them all, and you instantly have a good team.

Like I said, I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in. :(

edo783
11-08-2005, 09:21 AM
A GOOD coaching staff with a GOOD off season and a GOOD draft COULD make this team contend for a playoff spot by next year and nail a spot by year two. Will it happen......the crystall balls a bit murky right now. Get back to me in June.

eriadoc
11-08-2005, 09:36 AM
Completely unrealistic!

Addressing 3, maybe 4 areas where talent is lacking, is going to take more than one offseason to address. It won't make a bit of difference what new coaching staff is brought in.

That's the thing that aggravates me to no end with some of you. On one hand, you admit the team lacks talent in many key areas. But on the other hand, you actually 'expect' all those areas to be magically corrected in one fell swoop, and if those unrealistic expectations are not met . . .

. . . then it's "Fire Everyone" all over again. :crazy:

I feel sorry for the next coaching staff they bring in here. They're ****ed right from the start.

This team has 7 holes, IMO, and all can be addressed in the off-season by any competent coaching staff. The first one is LT. This problem, at the least, could have been addressed earlier by leaving Pitts at LT and grooming Wand. If Wand never works out (talent issue), then you still have a pretty good LT in Pitts (not All-Pro, but nowhere near the train wreck we've seen). That's coaching. Off-season: draft Brick or next best LT.

Second is the center position. McKinney should be able to hold down the job, but hasn't done as well as he should. Perhaps it's due to the lack of cohesion on the line, perhaps it's due to talent, or maybe he's playing out of position. Two of those three possibilities fall back on coaching. Off-season: move McKinney permanently to LG and groom Hodgdon. Perhaps sign a FA center or even draft one to compete with Hodgdon.

Third is RG. Wiegert has done a respectable job and I think could do well with everyone on the same page. But he seems to constantly be injured and we play backups there a lot. Injuries don't fall back on the coaches, obviously. Off-season: Groom Wand to compete with Wiegert for RG spot.

Fourth is TE. Joppru's situation is just bad luck. Scheming the TEs is a coaching decision, but they don't have much to work with right now. Nonetheless, this can easily be addressed in the draft. I would expect a 2nd or 3rd round pick to be spent on TE this year.

Fifth is LB. I firmly believe that we have playmakers at LB. The scheme our coaches utilize does not play to our linebackers' strengths. There is evidence to suggest that Pendry's scheme is faulty and certainly our players are not doing some of the things that LBs in other 3-4 schemes do. Wong's injury is unfortunate and has put the coaches in a bad position, but this was going on far earlier. To me, this falls back on coaching. Off-season - plan for Wong to not return or be at full strength. This may be our weakest spot (ILB) next year.

Sixth is SS. Glenn Earl took the job, then CC Brown took the job. Both show promise, but neither are/were getting the job done on a consistent basis. To me, this is pretty clearly a talent issue and not easily addressed in the off-season.

Seventh is FS. Marcus Coleman seems to have lost something. I don't know why, but his play has not been good lately. I'm hoping it's a blip on the radar, but even if it is, the staff needs to start preparing for life after Coleman. Off-season - not easily addressed, given the other needs on the team.

So yes, there are issues, but if four of those seven are addressed in the off-season, we'll be a lot better. Every team has weaknesses. I believe our talent is such that we'll have more weaknesses than other teams, but we should not be 1-7. And you can say it's not on the coaching staff and that we lack talent in 3-4 areas (7, in my estimation), but this is, for the most part, the SAME group of guys that went 7-9 last year. The talent has not changed to the tune of 1-7 this year.

wags
11-08-2005, 09:48 AM
Fifth is LB. I firmly believe that we have playmakers at LB.

Playmakers at LB? Let's see Peek drops a sure INT for a touchdown against Buffalo. Greenwood gets b-slapped by Verron Haynes worse than anyone I've ever seen, and has a history of never making plays. Wong hadn't done a thing before injury. The only consistency we get out of our LOLB is that they don't make plays. IMO we have the worst set of linebackers in the league.

PapaL
11-08-2005, 09:52 AM
And you can say it's not on the coaching staff and that we lack talent in 3-4 areas (7, in my estimation), but this is, for the most part, the SAME group of guys that went 7-9 last year. The talent has not changed to the tune of 1-7 this year.

I am agree with somethings you say, disagree with others. IMO - I do not think this is the any where near the same team we had last year. Most of the players are the same, but all the leaders have been taken away. Sharper and Glenn, while their skills may have declined, were the backbone of the team. Its just funny that they got pegged as being the bad apples, and when they got removed the team then becomes a 1-7 team. Thats a F.O. issue.

We have to remember, this isnt Madden. We're not going to go out and get the best draft picks and free agents. This is going to be a process similar to what Cinci went through. No FA wanted to play for them, they had to be even more careful with their draft picks.

Coaching - get someone in here that set a fire under our players arses and get them to perform. Stop with the Mickey Mouse coaching staff we have and get some real coaches in here. I think we do have a few coaches worth keeping, but the majority need to be replaced.

Just my opinon.....Have solid player leaders to backup good coaching. Stop trading away picks for possibilites, thats wht the draft is, draft players that could possibly help your team (at a discounted rate).

Vinny
11-08-2005, 09:55 AM
Its just funny that they got pegged as being the bad apples, and when they got removed the team then becomes a 1-7 team. Thats a F.O. issue. At no time did the team ever characterize Glenn or Sharper as 'bad apples'. That is all fan speculation accusing the team of this.

PapaL
11-08-2005, 10:00 AM
At no time did the team ever characterize Glenn or Sharper as 'bad apples'. That is all fan speculation accusing the team of this.

Thats what I was refering to. When Sharper made his comments, most/some people here saying get rid of him - we dont need players like him on our team. Come to find out, he was right....

Coach C.
11-08-2005, 10:07 AM
Leaders are usually the guys on the team that will tell it like it is regardless of other's thoughts. We are now seeing the direct result of losing leaders on a team. We are faster, quicker, maybe even stronger, but we have no veteran leadership. You could say Gary Funktastic, Seth Payne, and Kailee Wong, but before Sharper and Glenn left these guys were on the field leaders and that is what they are. As AJ and D-Rob realize they have to be more vocal we will have a lack of leadership on this team.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 10:12 AM
We have to remember, this isnt Madden. We're not going to go out and get the best draft picks and free agents. This is going to be a process similar to what Cinci went through. No FA wanted to play for them, they had to be even more careful with their draft picks.

Of Cincy's 22 starters 8 were FA acquisitions (7 from 2003 on).

On offense, Cincy starts 8 draft picks and 3 FA's. On defense they start 6 draft picks and 5 FA's. So FA's have played a major part in building their current team. The difference is they have made the most of non-high dollar FA's including having 2 FA's who were originally undrafted on D plus a successful reclamation 1st round CB project in Deltho O'Neal vs. the Texans paying big money for Wade, Greenwood, McKinney, etc. and not getting good bang for the buck. The concept of rounding out a team with non-elite FA's can work, but the execution hasn't been great here.

Kaiser Toro
11-08-2005, 10:21 AM
Leaders are usually the guys on the team that will tell it like it is regardless of other's thoughts. We are now seeing the direct result of losing leaders on a team. We are faster, quicker, maybe even stronger, but we have no veteran leadership. You could say Gary Funktastic, Seth Payne, and Kailee Wong, but before Sharper and Glenn left these guys were on the field leaders and that is what they are. As AJ and D-Rob realize they have to be more vocal we will have a lack of leadership on this team.

Yes I agree 100%. In assesing our leadership candidates there are not many outside of Walker and Payne in my opinion. They are the two tried and true vets who can command respect. DC has it in him, it is a matter of others respecting his lead. AJ is not a vocal leader and will need to lead via his play. DRob seems to be the future leader of the defense as he is a vocal guy who can lead with his play on the filed as well. I do think TJ will be able to muster the lead as it appears GFunk is bringing him along.

It will be interesting to see who emerges the second half of the season.

Coach C.
11-08-2005, 10:24 AM
Good post Infantry. The truth is due to the salary cap most teams have alot of FAs playing for them. The situation is in evaluating talent and managing it. We signed Wade, greenwood, McKinney, Weigert, and whoever else and they have been sufficient, but by no means worth the cap figures that the put up. we could do a much better job of grabbing low-dollar guys and utilizing them. I remember last offseason asking why they would grab greenwood, when A. Davis was available for such a small price. it did not make sense to me. He was a restricted free agent with the lowest tender, which means he went for whenever he was drafted, I think it was the 4 or 5th round, but could have been higher. I know giving up draft picks suck, but they only suck if you get guys that do not perform.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 10:42 AM
Another good example of building with the draft, cautious FA work and good scouting is Philadelphia.

On offense they start 5 players they drafted, 2 (now 1) true free agents and 4 guys who were undrafted free agents as rookies (I view those as neither fish nor fowl, but as good examples of scouting and player devopment). On defense they start 6 draft picks, 3 FA's and 2 UFA's (actually one was drafted by the Cardinals and released before his rookie season, same thing basically). So half of their team were draft picks for them. And let's not forget how well they manage their cap.

TheOgre
11-08-2005, 10:44 AM
Richard Justice is one of the most reactionary journalists I have ever read. He seems to rise and fall more than a bandwagon fan.

He made a good point that this team didn't quit and had a good showing. He made it sound like we got pounded due to lack of talent. We went toe-to-toe with a probable playoff team ON THEIR HOME FIELD. We barely lost it at the end due to a couple of plays/calls going the other way.

I don't think this team is hopeless talent-wise across the board. I think we have some talent and deep areas: WR, RB, D-line, and special teams. I think the problem is that we have a shortage of talent in key areas: OLT, pass-rusher(s), TE, CB2, WR2, perhaps ILB and definitely the safeties. I also think this coaching staff does the least with the most. Additionally, Casserly has made several personnel mistakes, especially with 2nd and 3rd round picks and anything involving the O-line. I could see us taking an OLT (1st), a pass-rusher (2nd), a TE (3rd), and a safety (3rd) with our first four picks. I would also hope that Gaffney, Armstrong, or Mathis can step up and become our #2 receiver.

I really hope the new staff wants a 3-4 defense, because otherwise we will be set back a year on personnel trying to convert to the 4-3.

PapaL
11-08-2005, 12:26 PM
Let me pose a question; Can Carr be a leader for this team? Would the team follow a guy who up to this point hasnt done anything in league except get drafted #1? Yeah we can see glimpses of potential, but honestly hasnt done anything? Is he the right person to lead this team?

MorKnolle
11-08-2005, 03:52 PM
Let me pose a question; Can Carr be a leader for this team? Would the team follow a guy who up to this point hasnt done anything in league except get drafted #1? Yeah we can see glimpses of potential, but honestly hasnt done anything? Is he the right person to lead this team?

YES

run-david-run
11-08-2005, 04:08 PM
Of Cincy's 22 starters 8 were FA acquisitions (7 from 2003 on).

On offense, Cincy starts 8 draft picks and 3 FA's. On defense they start 6 draft picks and 5 FA's. So FA's have played a major part in building their current team. The difference is they have made the most of non-high dollar FA's including having 2 FA's who were originally undrafted on D plus a successful reclamation 1st round CB project in Deltho O'Neal vs. the Texans paying big money for Wade, Greenwood, McKinney, etc. and not getting good bang for the buck. The concept of rounding out a team with non-elite FA's can work, but the execution hasn't been great here.

He was refering to the dark days of Cinncy, such as the 2-14 season. They have had back-to-back 8-8 seasons and have been close to the playoffs. Since Marvin Lewis took over, they have become one of the most promising young teams, thus they have attracted more fee-agents recently.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 04:16 PM
He was refering to the dark days of Cinncy, such as the 2-14 season. They have had back-to-back 8-8 seasons and have been close to the playoffs. Since Marvin Lewis took over, they have become one of the most promising young teams, thus they have attracted more fee-agents recently.

And that is what I am talking about--rebuilding a cruddy 2-14 team, i.e. the 2002 bengals, or the 1-4 to 12-15 Texans. Since that time they have added 7 of the 8 FA's they have as starters. That is what the Texans are facing--getting solid starters for good cap countracts thru good scouting rather going for elite prospects (elite prospects are the ones who can be choosey enough to go to contenders--even then the pickiness is overrated IMO and dollars generally rule.) For example and Andre Davis with the Browns vs. a Morlon Greenwood with the Texans. The Bengals added 3 current starters thru FA in 2003 coming off that 2002 2 and 14 season. They added two more after their 1st 8-8 season. Is a 7-9 season really that different?--nope. With a good GM, it is possible.

The Bengals have 3 total starters who joined their team since 2001. Teams can be rebuilt in fairly short order in the NFL when starting on a base. The Texans have a base as good as the 2002 Bengals--time for a good GM and coach to attempt the same turnaround.

Kaiser Toro
11-08-2005, 05:48 PM
Let me pose a question; Can Carr be a leader for this team? Would the team follow a guy who up to this point hasnt done anything in league except get drafted #1? Yeah we can see glimpses of potential, but honestly hasnt done anything? Is he the right person to lead this team?

If the market will bear it. It appears that he has the tools, but only those guys in the locker room really know. Pending the off season changes it will be intersting to see how it shakes out.

Runner
11-08-2005, 07:31 PM
And that is what I am talking about--rebuilding a cruddy 2-14 team, i.e. the 2002 bengals, or the 1-4 to 12-15 Texans. Since that time they have added 7 of the 8 FA's they have as starters. That is what the Texans are facing--getting solid starters for good cap countracts thru good scouting rather going for elite prospects (elite prospects are the ones who can be choosey enough to go to contenders--even then the pickiness is overrated IMO and dollars generally rule.) For example and Andre Davis with the Browns vs. a Morlon Greenwood with the Texans. The Bengals added 3 current starters thru FA in 2003 coming off that 2002 2 and 14 season. They added two more after their 1st 8-8 season. Is a 7-9 season really that different?--nope. With a good GM, it is possible.

The Bengals have 3 total starters who joined their team since 2001. Teams can be rebuilt in fairly short order in the NFL when starting on a base. The Texans have a base as good as the 2002 Bengals--time for a good GM and coach to attempt the same turnaround.

I don't understand something here - is there a typo somewhere or am I missing your meaning? The bolded portions seem to conflict.

infantrycak
11-08-2005, 08:05 PM
I don't understand something here - is there a typo somewhere or am I missing your meaning? The bolded portions seem to conflict.

I am sorry, that should be "The Bengals have just 3 total starters who joined their team before 2001."