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GP
11-06-2005, 03:03 PM
OK, everybody...

Let's roll up our sleeves and find out what the big deal was at the end of the game.

The cameras caught Bradford pulling Carr away from Gary Walker...and Walker was all up in Carr's grill about something. The look on Carr's face was a look of total fright. And Bradford seemed to be yanking him away because Bradford knew G-Funk was on a collision course with Carr?

Was Walker confronting Carr? Or was Carr defending himself or defending Bradford? Something BIG happened and we gotta found out what went down.

Please try and found out the scoop if you can.

GP
11-06-2005, 03:08 PM
bump

SESupergenius
11-06-2005, 03:09 PM
What difference does it make, Carr had made a nice throw that not caught. Plain and simple. Johnson was winded so there is no guarantee he's make that catch either. Walker has no reason to be in Carr's face at all. He better check himself and his defense first.

BuffSoldier
11-06-2005, 03:15 PM
What difference does it make, Carr had made a nice throw that not caught. Plain and simple. Johnson was winded so there is no guarantee he's make that catch either. Walker has no reason to be in Carr's face at all. He better check himself and his defense first.

Thats right if we could stop a drive in the second half we might have only needed a field goal.

GP
11-06-2005, 03:18 PM
I'm not interested in taking sides with this thread. Start a new one for that.

I want to know what was said, by whom, and toward whom.

The objective of THIS thread is to stay on topic by not ranting. If anybody has the details, or if you see reports anywhere (the internet, newspaper, radio, first-hand accounts by fans sitting near the bench, etc.) please post your findings ASAP.

Thanks.

belars44
11-06-2005, 03:19 PM
Thats right if we could stop a drive in the second half we might have only needed a field goal.

Ok Capers......you may have the reigns for this year but I know you can hear the footsteps.......keep playing not to lose next week at Indy (1-8) so we can be totally embarrassed yet another Sunday night game against KC (1-9). But hopefully we can kick enough FG's to win them and I can eat crow, pfffffffffffft.

Runner
11-06-2005, 03:19 PM
Walker has no reason to be in Carr's face at all. He better check himself and his defense first.

First, let me say Walker had a very good game today.

However, you're right. When Walker tries to be a leader he usually does that by yelling at the offense - and that tends to be decisive rather than constructive.

GP
11-06-2005, 03:21 PM
Again:

I'm not interested in taking sides with this thread. Start a new one for that.

I want to know what was said, by whom, and toward whom.

The objective of THIS thread is to stay on topic by not ranting. If anybody has the details, or if you see reports anywhere (the internet, newspaper, radio, first-hand accounts by fans sitting near the bench, etc.) please post your findings ASAP.

Thanks.

Runner
11-06-2005, 03:24 PM
Chill man. The postings are related to the topic.

I may know what it was about later tonight.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 03:27 PM
walker said "carr you s###." and carr said "i would fight you but you might hurt yourself hitting me and be out for a month".

NFLforher
11-06-2005, 03:39 PM
Chill man. The postings are related to the topic.

I may know what it was about later tonight.

Thanks

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 03:52 PM
then carr said "now what?! want me to punch your fist with my face?"

so now we are off topic.......yippie!

unless i say how i think gfunk needs to be quiet. he had a good game but unless his defense allowed way too many plays for something that wasnt even carrs fault

Vinny
11-06-2005, 04:02 PM
610am post game show is talking about this and MJ said they will try to find out what was said. It will come out soon enough.

Johnny Utah
11-06-2005, 04:06 PM
610am post game show is talking about this and MJ said they will try to find out what was said. It will come out soon enough.

You mean the PR spin where G-Funk and Carr both come out and said they were frustrated, and let emotion get the best of them.

Fiddy
11-06-2005, 04:07 PM
All we need is someone who can read lips. Anyone here can read lips and has a copy of the game to look at???

Hervoyel
11-06-2005, 04:08 PM
Is that a wheel I see flying off?

Hope it doesn't hit anybody. Those things are dangerous.

kenneth24
11-06-2005, 04:08 PM
Walker was probably yelling at Carr "why the hell is Bradford in the game?!" and Carr responed with "Wasn't my call! I wanted ARMSTRONG!!" and then Walker came back with "why did you throw it to him, even though that was a great throw, you know he can't extend his arms and make a catch!?!"

Vinny
11-06-2005, 04:09 PM
You mean the PR spin where G-Funk and Carr both come out and said they were frustrated, and let emotion get the best of them.Walker and David had to be separated per Granado. Walker got in the middle of Pendry talking to Carr and Walker was saying that Carr needs to take the coaching, or listen to the coaching or something along those lines. Apparently Walker wasn’t real happy about his decision making. He's an emotional guy...supposedly they talked it out.

kenneth24
11-06-2005, 04:09 PM
If walker was yelling at carr, is walker immature also? Since im sure Carr will be labeled as immature for yelling back at walker

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 04:14 PM
All we need is someone who can read lips. Anyone here can read lips and has a copy of the game to look at???

OH OH OH i think he said the F word




:)

Hervoyel
11-06-2005, 04:15 PM
OH OH OH i think he said the F word




:)

He said "Fiddy"?

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 04:22 PM
oh, well you see im not much of a professional at this.

i think it was more like fire truck without the 'ire tr'

Marcus
11-06-2005, 04:34 PM
OH OH OH i think he said the F word


:)

It can't beat Garner yelled to the Sox dugout last week.

"Shut the ******* up Everett, you *******ing Fat Albert *******************er. Just shut the ******* up and sit your *******ing *ss down, and shut the ******* up, you *******ing Fat Albert *******."

:hide:

aj.
11-06-2005, 04:42 PM
Spin it any way you want - emotional outburst - we've talked it out and we're still cool - heat of the moment - blah blah blah. Even loud mouth G Funk wouldn't consider yelling down a guy who's well respected and considered a team leader by his team mates. If you watch the replay, you will see that Granato witnessed the whole thing. Publicly, you'll get a somewhat filtered version from JG.

Malloy
11-06-2005, 04:49 PM
610am post game show is talking about this and MJ said they will try to find out what was said. It will come out soon enough.

610 net broadcast is not working atm, I wish they would start broadcasting again soon. Anyone knows why they stop broadcasting now and then, some sort of copyright thingie ?

Grid
11-06-2005, 04:57 PM
hey if Walker yelled at carr that he needs the coaching..or needs to listen to the coach.. then he is spot on.

Carr better not be considering himself a veteran.. hes still making rookie mistakes.

aj.
11-06-2005, 05:01 PM
610 net broadcast is not working atm, I wish they would start broadcasting again soon. Anyone knows why they stop broadcasting now and then, some sort of copyright thingie ?

They don't stream the games because of licensing. Not sure if that includes the postgame. If you can listen tomorrow to the morning show (in the US from 6-11 am) and Marc and Rich's show (2-6 pm US), the issue will probably be discussed thouroughly.

Goldeagle
11-06-2005, 05:02 PM
What difference does it make, Carr had made a nice throw that not caught. Plain and simple. Johnson was winded so there is no guarantee he's make that catch either. Walker has no reason to be in Carr's face at all. He better check himself and his defense first.


A good pass, a typical drop.

A fat man who has taken the last few years off except for a couple of games needs to keep his mouth shut on the sidelines.

rmartin65
11-06-2005, 05:07 PM
okay, i missed the game. I have read the thread but when did this happen?

aj.
11-06-2005, 05:12 PM
On the sideline right after the Texans last offensive play.

rmartin65
11-06-2005, 05:14 PM
On the sideline right after the Texans last offensive play.
Thanks

281
11-06-2005, 05:51 PM
A good pass, a typical drop.

A fat man who has taken the last few years off except for a couple of games needs to keep his mouth shut on the sidelines.

A good pass... INTO DOUBLE COVERAGE. Dre was running to the left across the middle, and was WIDE open. Carr, stats-wise, had a mediocre game, but this offense has been dumbed down so much... it's not even funny. Not ONCE did I see Carr look for any other receivers.

chuckm
11-06-2005, 05:54 PM
A good pass... INTO DOUBLE COVERAGE. Dre was running to the left across the middle, and was WIDE open.


oh jeeeeeez :rolleyes:

Malloy
11-06-2005, 05:56 PM
They don't stream the games because of licensing. Not sure if that includes the postgame. If you can listen tomorrow to the morning show (in the US from 6-11 am) and Marc and Rich's show (2-6 pm US), the issue will probably be discussed thouroughly.

you're right. I'll have to relax and wait until tomorrow, need the sleep anyway ;)

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 05:56 PM
oh jeeeeeez :rolleyes:
exactly. im just about tired of trying to explain it to people

281
11-06-2005, 06:01 PM
exactly. im just about tired of trying to explain it to people

Explain what? that the QB can't hit a wide open man because he's not the first option? Who would YOU rather throw the ball to, A double-covered Bradford or a wide-open Johnson!?

belars44
11-06-2005, 06:02 PM
exactly. im just about tired of trying to explain it to people

I'm all ready for you to explain it to me, especially if it has merit as to our 1-7 record and contains any responsibility towards our #1 overall draft pick and supposed team leader.

Napa Auto Parts
11-06-2005, 06:04 PM
Explain what? that the QB can't hit a wide open man because he's not the first option? Who would YOU rather throw the ball to, A double-covered Bradford or a wide-open Johnson!?



I think a Wide open AJ would be the best option but i never played my college ball at fresno state so i dont know what goes thru David's head:brickwall

chuckm
11-06-2005, 06:05 PM
Explain what? that the QB can't hit a wide open man because he's not the first option? Who would YOU rather throw the ball to, A double-covered Bradford or a wide-open Johnson!?


of the hundreds of passes that'll be thrown today, what percentage will be thrown to and caught by a receiver that isn't the most open receiver on the play? I'm just as angry about some of the decisons Carr makes as the next guy but I'm not blinded by my anger ....

vtech9
11-06-2005, 06:06 PM
it was a nice throw by Carr, but also a poor decision by Carr to even attempt it. It was 4th and 9, and instead of trying to get the first down, Carr tries to go for it all. If Bradford had made the catch, it would have been a great play, but still a poor decision. AJ was wide open in the middle of the field and would have had the first down, and would have had alot more since he was so wide open. He might have even scored. Either way, a completed pass to a wide open AJ would have given them 4 more plays to get in the endzone.
This was the best overall game by the team so far. It was also Carr's best game even though he still made some poor decisions.

run-david-run
11-06-2005, 06:07 PM
Walker and David had to be separated per Granado. Walker got in the middle of Pendry talking to Carr and Walker was saying that Carr needs to take the coaching, or listen to the coaching or something along those lines. Apparently Walker wasn’t real happy about his decision making. He's an emotional guy...supposedly they talked it out.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!! he says he has to listen to the coaches, but he interupts his meeting with the coaches to tell him this?? that is what you call irony...:texflag:

281
11-06-2005, 06:11 PM
of the hundreds of passes that'll be thrown today, what percentage will be thrown to and caught by a receiver that isn't the most open receiver on the play? I'm just as angry about some of the decisons Carr makes as the next guy but I'm not blinded by my anger ....

...are all those hundreds of passes on 4th and 9 in the REDZONE?!?!?! and do all of those hundred passes have the game resting on them!?!?!?

run-david-run
11-06-2005, 06:11 PM
A good pass... INTO DOUBLE COVERAGE. Dre was running to the left across the middle, and was WIDE open. Carr, stats-wise, had a mediocre game, but this offense has been dumbed down so much... it's not even funny. Not ONCE did I see Carr look for any other receivers.
double coverage or not, great pass, teriblle drop. Aj came open late, by the time he had gotten clear of the linebacker Carr had already thrown the ball...

281
11-06-2005, 06:15 PM
double coverage or not, great pass, teriblle drop. Aj came open late, by the time he had gotten clear of the linebacker Carr had already thrown the ball...

Watch the replay, Dre is wide open... The linebacker isn't anywhere close if the ball is thrown in stride.

chuckm
11-06-2005, 06:16 PM
...are all those hundreds of passes on 4th and 9 in the REDZONE?!?!?! and do all of those hundred passes have the game resting on them!?!?!?


beautifully thrown pass to a lightning fast receiver with inconsistent hands = CARR SUCKS

:brickwall

281
11-06-2005, 06:21 PM
beautifully thrown pass to a lightning fast receiver with inconsistent hands = CARR SUCKS

:brickwall

Well sure, he missed a wide open Dre. He may have a nice arm, but it doesn't make a difference if he has absolutely NO brain.

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 06:36 PM
was bradford open? yes
was aj open? yes
who did carr throw to? bradford

the pass was right on target but bradford dropped it. should he have throw it to AJ? not necessarily unless the safety was in better position. IMO carr made a GOOD decision (never said it was the best) but bradford let him down.

so yes im frustrated hearin about how AJ was wide open and we should have given the ball to him. carr made a good read and thats that.

Texans Horror
11-06-2005, 06:42 PM
Bradford had a TD catch and a couple of good catches. So throwing to Bradford made sense. He was playing descent today. But then he had to pull a Bradford and totally drop the ball. Way to go, butterfingers! That was a well-thrown ball. None of the defenders got a hand on it. Too bad neither did Bradford.

281
11-06-2005, 06:44 PM
was bradford open? yes
was aj open? yes
who did carr throw to? bradford

the pass was right on target but bradford dropped it. should he have throw it to AJ? not necessarily unless the safety was in better position. IMO carr made a GOOD decision (never said it was the best) but bradford let him down.

so yes im frustrated hearin about how AJ was wide open and we should have given the ball to him. carr made a good read and thats that.

You mean a good pass. He didn't look for anyone else. I have yet to see him make a real read (this doesn't include dump/checkdowns).

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 06:48 PM
You mean a good pass. He didn't look for anyone else. I have yet to see him make a real read (this doesn't include dump/checkdowns).
how was that not a good read? right when he got the ball and got his feet set he sent the ball sailing. he READ the safety playing away from the sideline.

and if thats not what happened thats what im stickin with

WWJD
11-06-2005, 06:48 PM
A good pass, a typical drop.

A fat man who has taken the last few years off except for a couple of games needs to keep his mouth shut on the sidelines.


Couldn't agree more.

281
11-06-2005, 06:50 PM
how was that not a good read? right when he got the ball and got his feet set he sent the ball sailing. he READ the safety playing away from the sideline.

and if thats not what happened thats what im stickin with

You do that then.

Grid
11-06-2005, 06:54 PM
bleh.. get over the "who was more open" bull. Bradford was open enough and the ball was well placed. Carr did his job.

I guess he could have copped a squat and thought about it for 15-30 seconds.. but we were about to have to start taking people out of the stands to play on our Oline and it showed.

TEXANRED
11-06-2005, 06:56 PM
hey if Walker yelled at carr that he needs the coaching..or needs to listen to the coach.. then he is spot on.

Carr better not be considering himself a veteran.. hes still making rookie mistakes.

Walker needs to keep his mouth shut. He plays on a D unit that let Gary Coleman walk into the endzone from ten yards out.

Was that a fourth down play? Or was the fourth down play when the whole D went to go and tackle the running back while there receiver was playing solitare in the back of the endzone?

If you live in a glass house......

chuckm
11-06-2005, 06:57 PM
anyone just see the LColes touchdown catch in the Chargers game replay on Primetime? He was tightly-covered and made a beautiful catch in the corner of the endzone .... whatta concept ...

Runner
11-06-2005, 06:59 PM
anyone just see the LColes touchdown catch in the Chargers game replay on Primetime? He was tightly-covered and made a beautiful catch in the corner of the endzone .... whatta concept ...

In the Bengals game, Chad Johnson made a nice catch of a long ball just short of the end zone when well covered too. I can't believe that numbskull QB threw it to him. What was he thinking?

chuckm
11-06-2005, 07:00 PM
In the Bengals game, Chad Johnson made a nice catch of a long ball just short of the end zone when well covered too. I can't believe that numbskull QB threw it to him. What was he thinking?


rumor has it that Houshmandzadeh was wide open too .....

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 07:00 PM
well i just saw the steve smith TD and that was a replay of the bradford-carr toss, except smith didnt drop it.

well some people can only understand concepts. not really hands on guys if you know what i mean

Fiddy
11-06-2005, 07:03 PM
In the Bengals game, Chad Johnson made a nice catch of a long ball just short of the end zone when well covered too. I can't believe that numbskull QB threw it to him. What was he thinking? 1st off: CJ > Bradford and CJ makes a couple of those catches every week, Bradford has never made that type of catch...
Secondly, it wasnt a 4th down play

Runner
11-06-2005, 07:04 PM
Thirdly, they were trying to win.

chuckm
11-06-2005, 07:05 PM
1st off: CJ > Bradford and CJ makes a couple of those catches every week, Bradford has never made that type of catch...
Secondly, it wasnt a 4th down play


even more reason for Bradford to come up big ....

ccdude730
11-06-2005, 07:06 PM
Thirdly, they were trying to win.
i guess you could make that arguement :heh:

Runner
11-06-2005, 07:15 PM
You can't please all of the people all of the time. If he had thrown to Dre, and Dre caught the ball, and time ran out before we scored, people would be moaning about the missed Bradford opportunity.

I don't see the last play as a big problem either way he makes the throw - Bradford or Johnson. He has other problems to fix before we worry about dissecting which was the smarter play on that 4th down - I think he had two good options and chose one. In my opinion.

Mr. Old School
11-06-2005, 07:21 PM
I know I can't be the only fan who believes that Carr appears not to have the mental faculties to be a successful NFL QB? He's still messing up and making rookie type mistakes.
He really needs help reading Defenses too. Seriously, he may not be the sharpest guy playing QB in the NFL. He seems to be "overly protected".

chuckm
11-06-2005, 07:23 PM
=He seems to be "overly protected".

I assume you don't mean the pass blocking

RTP2110
11-06-2005, 07:32 PM
Wow, I thought this thread was about the sideline argument??? When did all the Armchair Quarterbacks take over??
If anyone gets any info about the argument, please let us know.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 07:34 PM
I know I can't be the only fan who believes that Carr appears not to have the mental faculties to be a successful NFL QB? He's still messing up and making rookie type mistakes.
He really needs help reading Defenses too. Seriously, he may not be the sharpest guy playing QB in the NFL. He seems to be "overly protected".

carr doesnt always make good decisions. im hoping when the pass protection gets better and he has more time to concentrate on the play and not running for his life his decesions will improve. its hard for the game to slow down for him when he has about half the time of an ave qb.

a lot of people have given up on him. but i think you have to give him a chance before you throw a #1 pick away. and beside he's the best we got.

281
11-06-2005, 07:57 PM
carr doesnt always make good decisions. im hoping when the pass protection gets better and he has more time to concentrate on the play and not running for his life his decesions will improve. its hard for the game to slow down for him when he has about half the time of an ave qb.

a lot of people have given up on him. but i think you have to give him a chance before you throw a #1 pick away. and beside he's the best we got.

Banks won 3 of 4 starts. I honestly believe his title of "1st pick, 1st round, 1st year" has kept him as the starter for this long.

281
11-06-2005, 07:58 PM
Corey was open as well, nice catch.
David was going for the throat and Corey dropped it.

He wasn't as open as Dre... and why "go for the throat" if you can get an easy first down? :brickwall

TexansBlitz
11-06-2005, 08:01 PM
Sorry to actually be on topic, but one thing that Gary Walker said to Carr was "That's right *******************er!"

...just in case anyone was interested

281
11-06-2005, 08:04 PM
Sorry to actually be on topic, but one thing that Gary Walker said to Carr was "That's right *******************er!"

...just in case anyone was interested

Do you mean, "Thats right, mo-****a!?!?" ???

TexansBlitz
11-06-2005, 08:05 PM
Yea, thats what I meant...it was actually already censored, but I guess not enough.

281
11-06-2005, 08:07 PM
Yea, thats what I meant...it was actually already censored, but I guess not enough.

Heh. G-Funk had a helluva game.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 08:07 PM
Banks won 3 of 4 starts. I honestly believe his title of "1st pick, 1st round, 1st year" has kept him as the starter for this long.

carr came in one of those games. and it wasnt banks it was our defense. banks actually got sacked at almost 3 times the rate carr did that year. he would be out for the year in less than two games.

281
11-06-2005, 08:11 PM
carr came in one of those games. and it wasnt banks it was our defense. banks actually got sacked at almost 3 times the rate carr did that year. he would be out for the year in less than two games.

We're already 1-7, the season is lost. I'd definitely say it's fair to bench Carr and see what else we have at the QB position. It's not like things would get worse, now would they?

Lucky
11-06-2005, 08:13 PM
Banks won 3 of 4 starts.
Where did you get that stat? Banks has started 3 games for the Texans, all in '03. The Texans won at home against Carolina (14-10), lost at home against New England (23-20), and won again against Atlanta (17-13). Banks left just after the half with the Texans trailing.

Oh, the legend of Tony Banks grows every year...

utahmark
11-06-2005, 08:15 PM
We're already 1-7, the season is lost. I'd definitely say it's fair to bench Carr and see what else we have at the QB position. It's not like things would get worse, now would they?


i cant disagree with you there. unless hodgdon comes back i think carr was getting it together with the improved o-line play. i would hate for someone to come in and get better protection than carr has had and then look good.

281
11-06-2005, 08:16 PM
Where did you get that stat? Banks has started 3 games for the Texans, all in '03. The Texans won at home against Carolina (14-10), lost at home against New England (23-20), and won again against Atlanta (17-13). Banks left just after the half with the Texans trailing.

Oh, the legend of Tony Banks grows every year...


Okay then, since he started two full games and went 1-1, his winning percentage would be .500. Still beats Carrs.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 08:19 PM
Where did you get that stat? Banks has started 3 games for the Texans, all in '03. The Texans won at home against Carolina (14-10), lost at home against New England (23-20), and won again against Atlanta (17-13). Banks left just after the half with the Texans trailing.

Oh, the legend of Tony Banks grows every year...

no he's right he was in for most of the buffalo game as well. but you could hardly call that great qb play. we won 12 to 10. and the atlanta game wasnt cause of banks either. carr came in and helped us with that win.

banks did play well against carolina.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 08:21 PM
well i guess the buffalo game wasnt a start.

mexican_texan
11-06-2005, 08:21 PM
All right...some recievers look open to us because of the angle. Some playes look covered that are actually open from the QB's point of view.

Vinny
11-06-2005, 08:28 PM
Where did you get that stat? Banks has started 3 games for the Texans, all in '03. The Texans won at home against Carolina (14-10), lost at home against New England (23-20), and won again against Atlanta (17-13). Banks left just after the half with the Texans trailing.

Oh, the legend of Tony Banks grows every year... We won 3 of 5 in the stretch he is talking about. I just looked it up. Carr completed 2 passes for 25 yards against the Falcons. The Banks led Texans beat the Panthers and Bills and barely lost to the Pats. Banks played statistically better than Carr that year.

Banks 2003 Houston Texans 7 3 102 61 59.8 693 6.79 46 5 3 13/57 9 2 84.3
Carr 2003 Houston Texans 12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 15/90 22 5 69.5

Nov 2 Carolina Won 14-10
Nov 9 @Cincinnati Lost 27-34
Nov 16 @Buffalo Won 12-10
Nov 23 New England Lost 20-23
Nov 30 Atlanta Won 17-13

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1062

Hardcore Texan
11-06-2005, 08:28 PM
Well sure, he missed a wide open Dre. He may have a nice arm, but it doesn't make a difference if he has absolutely NO brain.


He had a pretty solid game, everyone is very critical of Carr, but they are not back there getting pounded every down. It has to take a toll at some point, he could have avoided a couple of sacks, but he made some quality throws. As far as the argument goes, hey the heat of battle causes tempers to flare, it is probably not that big of a deal.

nunusguy
11-06-2005, 08:46 PM
For the second week in a row, Walker played very well. When he's healty &
on his game, there's little doubt that he's our best DLineman. But as a member of the defensive unit, it is so obviously inappropriate for him to insert himself into any kind of serious game-related communication between 2 people on the offensive unit, let alone the OC & QB, gotta believe the
emotion of losing just got the best of his composure & common sense.

Vinny
11-06-2005, 08:48 PM
no he's right he was in for most of the buffalo game as well. but you could hardly call that great qb play. T. Banks 11/16 207 with a TD. Dom led the rushers with 68 yards that day.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031116_HOU@BUF

Vinny
11-06-2005, 08:51 PM
For the second week in a row, Walker played very well. When he's healty &
on his game, there's little doubt that he's our best DLineman. But as a member of the defensive unit, it is so obviously inappropriate for him to insert himself into any kind of serious game-related communication between 2 people on the offensive unit, let alone the OC & QB, gotta believe the
emotion of losing just got the best of his composure & common sense. I agree...but it was after the game and Carr was arguing with his coach. Walker just told him to take his coaching. Small point but some may think this was during the game.

HoustonFan
11-06-2005, 09:02 PM
The stuff you miss listening to the game on the radio. Overall it was a good game. I think for the most part they were competitive up until the 4th where it seemd as if they ran out of gas. I can't beleive Bradford dropped the ball - ok maybe I can. He did pretty good for the day up until that.

Will wait to hear more about the argument.

BuffSoldier
11-06-2005, 09:07 PM
Ok Capers......you may have the reigns for this year but I know you can hear the footsteps.......keep playing not to lose next week at Indy (1-8) so we can be totally embarrassed yet another Sunday night game against KC (1-9). But hopefully we can kick enough FG's to win them and I can eat crow, pfffffffffffft.

Thats not what Im saying at all. What I mean is that if Gary was yelling at Carr, then he needs to back off because if the D had held Jac. to a field goal then we would not have had to go for it on 4th down. I still think we should be agressive and play to win though.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 09:26 PM
We won 3 of 5 in the stretch he is talking about. I just looked it up. Carr completed 2 passes for 25 yards against the Falcons. The Banks led Texans beat the Panthers and Bills and barely lost to the Pats. Banks played statistically better than Carr that year.

Banks 2003 Houston Texans 7 3 102 61 59.8 693 6.79 46 5 3 13/57 9 2 84.3
Carr 2003 Houston Texans 12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 15/90 22 5 69.5

Nov 2 Carolina Won 14-10
Nov 9 @Cincinnati Lost 27-34
Nov 16 @Buffalo Won 12-10
Nov 23 New England Lost 20-23
Nov 30 Atlanta Won 17-13

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1062

the only game we scored over 20 during that stretch was the cincinnati game. carr played that whole game. and while carr only had 25 yards he played late in the game with a shoulder inj and had a key run that probably won us the game. you might also wanna throw in sacks in those stats. banks had almost as many as carr had the entire year. dont think he would last with our offensive line this year.

Vinny
11-06-2005, 09:29 PM
When Carr plays like this you guys are glossing all over him. When Banks does it...well, you guys trash him.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031116_HOU@BUF
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031102_CAR@HOU
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031130_ATL@HOU

Napa Auto Parts
11-06-2005, 09:30 PM
Thats not what Im saying at all. What I mean is that if Gary was yelling at Carr, then he needs to back off because if the D had held Jac. to a field goal then we would not have had to go for it on 4th down. I still think we should be agressive and play to win though.


thats just plain retarded its like saying if David had not fumbled the Ball that led to a Jags touchdown we would of Won:texflag:

utahmark
11-06-2005, 09:30 PM
T. Banks 11/16 207 with a TD. Dom led the rushers with 68 yards that day.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031116_HOU@BUF

dude it kills me when you only take half my quote to make your point sound better. we only scored 12 points that day. looks about like carrs stats today and everyone is all over him.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 09:31 PM
When Carr plays like this you guys are glossing all over him. When Banks does it...well, you guys trash him.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031116_HOU@BUF
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031102_CAR@HOU
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031130_ATL@HOU

thats hallarious. i just said the same about you guys but opposite. depends on which camp you are sitting in i guess.

utahmark
11-06-2005, 09:38 PM
i dont think anyone on this board thinks carr is playing great right now. we just have a difference of opinion on why he's not putting up the numbers. if you look at the first quarter and a half i think you can start to get a fell for what he might be able to do. i think if the lineman wouldnt of went down carr throws for over 300 yards and 2 td's and we win. some of you dont agree. we will never know if we dont give him a season with a good line and some real coaches.

Goldeagle
11-06-2005, 10:48 PM
A good pass... INTO DOUBLE COVERAGE. Dre was running to the left across the middle, and was WIDE open. Carr, stats-wise, had a mediocre game, but this offense has been dumbed down so much... it's not even funny. Not ONCE did I see Carr look for any other receivers.

Hmmm, a good pass in double Coverage THAT LANDED RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF THE WR WHO DROPPED THE PASS!

WWJD
11-06-2005, 10:58 PM
Well perhaps one day if Gary is on the sidelines having a heated discussion with his coach David should walk up to him and give him an earful. Would that be right?

Perhaps Gary should think about that.

mrm17
11-06-2005, 11:02 PM
PLEASE!

Lay off Carr - who the hell else would we get to come here that would be better? Banks? He's the NFL History Leader of fumbles - behind our line - are you kidding?

Walker needs to butt out.

As far as Carr arguing with his coach: Pendry was SO AWESOME of a line coach and coordinator that he was UNEMPLOYED for over two years after being fired at Buffalo. As soon as he showed here, our sack total increased from Year 2 to Year 3 by 12 sacks. What a joke!

My biggest fear: Who in the heck would want to come here next year, as GM or coach? Or any free agents - we haven't exactly hit the mark on those recently either!

WWJD
11-06-2005, 11:07 PM
I am positive if (and I think it will be so) the Texans are in need of a new head coach it will be a most attractive job opening for any number of worthy candidates.

Honch Delgado
11-07-2005, 01:07 AM
"The two were separated by Texans vice president of communications Tony Wyllie."

Are we the most image concerned team in the NFL or what?

Coach C.
11-07-2005, 01:23 AM
Walker had every right to question Carr's decision to go deep to Bradford. Just like Carr has the right to ask him why the defense allowed two 80+ drives that just killed. This type of thing happens on everyteam in some fashion or another when you are at the height of competiton all you want to do is win so guys get heated.

As for the pass Carr made a perfect pass and a great read. Yeah AJ was open about 14yds down the field, but he had the saftey playing over the top so he would have been brought down soon after he caught the ball. This would have given us a couple more plays, but when you have the shot (any QB will tell you) you take the shot to get closest to the endzone. He had his fastest veteran receiver one on one with the CB and he read it and took the shot. The problem was it was Bradford and not Mathis. That is the only thing that should be examined do you throw the ball to a guy like Bradford with the game on the line? Now that should be debated.

Ibar_Harry
11-07-2005, 01:30 AM
I think the last two games showed a couple of things.

1) Carr, when he has line protection can do the job, but he probably is very nervious when not protected. He has to have a period of being sackless if he is going to regain trust and stand in there.

2) DD is important to us and we need him if we are going to win.

3) Mathis is an important cog even though he's a rookie.

4) The rookie center has become an important Cog in a very short time and the moving of McKinney from the center position has helped this team a lot.

5) When AJ is in the lineup we have a problem. Carr looks for AJ too much, but that could be the coaches. The end of game arguement might be a sign of that. AJ has dropped a numbe of balls lately and Gaffny seems to pout when AJ is in the lineup. As a QB I can't imagine how I would be confident throwing to AJ and Bradford.

In one of his last news conferences Capers was talking about how they needed to get the ball into the hands of Mathis. Ah, I think almost everyone on this board has been saying that before TC. This coaching staff has no idea what they have. Even though Bradford had a good game early, I still think he is a liability this team can not afford. He has killed more games than carter has liver pills. When the ball is put in the receivers hands, he has to catch it. In the NFL you just don't get that many opportunities and you must make the most of it when you are given an opportunity.

I stated early in the week any O-line injuries could hurt us badly, because of the number of people already out. Unfortunately we did get some inoportune injuries. However, I think we played harder and looked more composed as a whole. The defense and offense both need to pick up their games. The defense does not stop the other team when the offense gives them a lead. The Jaguars made a number of mistakes, but we simply couldn't take advantage of them.

Coach C.
11-07-2005, 01:49 AM
Ibar you are right on. Even though I dont think AJ in the lineup is anything more than a plus. Does Carr need to look in other receivers direction more? yes. But Bradford did have 70+ yds and a TD, but should he be thrown at as many times as he was. No. Gaffney has proven himself as a quality possesion receiver with the ability to be a no. 2 receiver. Gaffney needs to make his breaks quicker that way he will be ok. Also you could not have said it better than how good Carr will be once his confidence is back. Nice post Ibar...

phan1
11-07-2005, 02:48 AM
I have NO FREAKIN IDEA why people keep on saying how Carr keeps locking on to AJ. NOTHING SUPPORTS THIS! How many times did Carr connect with AJ early in the season? Not many times at all. If anything he always seems to spread the ball around quite a bit. Gaffney and Bradford definitely get their receptions on a consistent basis. So does Armstrong when the coaches are smart enough to put him in. And who did Carr throw to at the end of today's game? Bradford. I'm sorry guys but this "I only look for AJ" crap is a total myth.

Also, having AJ in there is a GOOD THING. :brickwall To say that his presence hinders the team is ridiculous. When healthy, he's probably out best guy on offense, and the ball should be coming his way a couple times a game at least. We need AJ in there desperately, and I don't want to know what the game would have looked like w/o the duo of DD and AJ in there.

swtbound07
11-07-2005, 03:11 AM
"The two were separated by Texans vice president of communications Tony Wyllie."

Are we the most image concerned team in the NFL or what?


therein lies our problem...if G-funk cant even break through the line of a communications vice president to get to OUR qb, is it really any wonder that he cant get to the opposing qb?

bckey
11-07-2005, 03:35 AM
Ibar you are right on. Even though I dont think AJ in the lineup is anything more than a plus. Does Carr need to look in other receivers direction more? yes. But Bradford did have 70+ yds and a TD, but should he be thrown at as many times as he was. No. Gaffney has proven himself as a quality possesion receiver with the ability to be a no. 2 receiver. Gaffney needs to make his breaks quicker that way he will be ok. Also you could not have said it better than how good Carr will be once his confidence is back. Nice post Ibar...


Thanks for your approval Coach C. You are the ultimate authority on football. Once again I don't know how we got along on this bb without you.

Grid
11-07-2005, 04:02 AM
you people are jumping the gun with the "screw gary walker" comments.

they said on FSW that Carr was yelling at Pendry and Walker jumped Carr for it.

Hopefully we will get a clearer picture of what happened tommorrow.. but if THAT is the case, then I dont blame Walker. (I dont blame walker anyway)

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 08:01 AM
you people are jumping the gun with the "screw gary walker" comments.

they said on FSW that Carr was yelling at Pendry and Walker jumped Carr for it.

Hopefully we will get a clearer picture of what happened tommorrow.. but if THAT is the case, then I dont blame Walker. (I dont blame walker anyway)

If I am not mistaken, since Payne and Walker have been stepping up on and off the field with stern leadership this team has perfomed its best the last two weeks.

I honestly do not understand why we are stuck on one pass for the outcome of the game. Anyone who has played sports at a high level knows that one play does not make a game. It was a well thrown ball into double coverage and a suspect WR dropped it. Those unfortunately are the breaks.

However, when we break down individuals per play I am ecstatic DC stepped outside of his realm and a took a chance. But that he decided to take a chance like that given the time, score and situation it is still indicative that he has not matured as a game manager. Normally I would be sympathetic and say he is young and needs exeperience, but that is not the case with 50+ starts. David has the physical attributes, he just lacks the intangibles to the nth degree.

With that all said I would like to see him signed back at a lower cost and bench him for the remainder of the year. We do not need him out there getting hurt and he may learn some of the finer points of the game by watching from the sidelines. No sarcasm and no hating here, just the straight poop.

OzzO
11-07-2005, 08:10 AM
Wow, 6 pages on this? So I read the 1st then jumped to the last to see if someone else noted what happened.

Carr said this morning on 610 (if I recall correctly) that it was just a heated discussion as Walker really wanted the win against his former team as did Carr (apparently hates the jags) and it was just how Gary "talks" - it was no big deal, just that they really wanted this win and thought they had it. He never mentioned what was actually said though.

NFLforher
11-07-2005, 08:16 AM
Wow, 6 pages on this? So I read the 1st then jumped to the last to see if someone else noted what happened.

Carr said this morning on 610 (if I recall correctly) that it was just a heated discussion as Walker really wanted the win against his former team as did Carr (apparently hates the jags) and it was just how Gary "talks" - it was no big deal, just that they really wanted this win and thought they had it. He never mentioned what was actually said though.


You really think that Carr was gonna air it out publicly, on the radio?

OzzO
11-07-2005, 08:22 AM
Nope, and I'm glad he didn't. Actually, pretty hard nosed interview this morning as he was also asked about Bradford and the missed catch - noted that Bradford was playing really well all game and that he was one on one when it was thrown and that he (Carr) will continue to go to him in the future.

Tangent, since I'm on the interview - asked what happened with the AJ overthrow if it was a miscommunication or busted route. Carr noted that it was an crossing play that left the Jags running into each other and AJ open, that he just thinks AJ either didn't see the football or thought Carr already threw it.

All in all - pretty good interview (I may have missed a bit), but he gave the answers in a "p.c." way and didn't really dodge the questions.

BigBull17
11-07-2005, 09:06 AM
A good pass... INTO DOUBLE COVERAGE. Dre was running to the left across the middle, and was WIDE open. Carr, stats-wise, had a mediocre game, but this offense has been dumbed down so much... it's not even funny. Not ONCE did I see Carr look for any other receivers.

Both DB's were 2 steps behind Bradford you have to make that throw. What throw would Peyton and Brady have made? The same throw in the same spot period. That was a safe throw and he had everything you want and the bum dropped it. I hope in the future he makes the same decision again cause it was the right one.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 09:17 AM
Both DB's were 2 steps behind Bradford you have to make that throw. What throw would Peyton and Brady have made? The same throw in the same spot period. That was a safe throw and he had everything you want and the bum dropped it. I hope in the future he makes the same decision again cause it was the right one.

Your take is valid except for the mention of Payton and Brady. Comparing a three time Super Bowl champ and League MYP to our QB is way off.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 09:26 AM
Your take is valid except for the mention of Payton and Brady. Comparing a three time Super Bowl champ and League MYP to our QB is way off.

For goodness sake people, stop with the inane misunderstanding of comparisons. It is perfectly normal when talking about the QB judgment on a play to compare it to indisputably good QB judgment people, like the current top 2 QB's. It is only a comparison for that one freakin' decision on that one play, not a statement of equality in all ways. AAAAGH.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 09:29 AM
Your take is valid except for the mention of Payton and Brady. Comparing a three time Super Bowl champ and League MYP to our QB is way off.

He was pointing out that any good QB would make that throw, it was a good decision and a great throw, just a missed catch. Winning QBs take those chances and look for the big play, and winning teams convert on those plays which we didn't. After being hampered so much of the year by having to run nothing but short routes I am glad Carr take that chance regardless of the receiver down there, and he made a perfect throw on it too.

BigBull17
11-07-2005, 09:33 AM
Thanks for defending my post and your exactly right in your interpritation of my post.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 09:34 AM
For goodness sake people, stop with the inane misunderstanding of comparisons. It is perfectly normal when talking about the QB judgment on a play to compare it to indisputably good QB judgment people, like the current top 2 QB's. It is only a comparison for that one freakin' decision on that one play, not a statement of equality in all ways. AAAAGH.

If you directed this to me I believe you are off, on my opinion. My take has been that DC is not cerebral and does not understand time score and situation. The reason why Manning and Brady are so good is because they understand those variables. They would have hit their number one target on 4th and long to give themselves at least four more plays for the tie.

I belive my posts have been consistent on this.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 09:41 AM
If you directed this to me I believe you are off, on my opinion. My take has been that DC is not cerebral and does not understand time score and situation. The reason why Manning and Brady are so good is because they understand those variables. They would have hit their number one target on 4th and long to give themselves at least four more plays for the tie.

I belive my posts have been consistent on this.

Yes I was directing it at you as an example of what I was talking about. BigBull mentioned Manning and Brady in relation to decision making on one particular play and that they would have made the same decision as Carr in that situation. Your take that Manning and Brady shouldn't be discussed in relation to Carr and your demonstration above once again of not separating out a general overall comparison and a play specific or individual decision specific comparison is what I find off base. BigBull didn't say Carr's decision making is just as good as Manning's generally--just that it was the same on one play. People really need to learn to see the difference.

chuckm
11-07-2005, 09:48 AM
Caddy and InfantryCak ... you guys have a lot of nerve injecting logic and common sense into this perfectly good (and entertaining) discussion .... ok BigBull and Kaiser, what were you saying again?

BringItOn
11-07-2005, 09:51 AM
therein lies our problem...if G-funk cant even break through the line of a communications vice president to get to OUR qb, is it really any wonder that he cant get to the opposing qb?

More importantly, can the dude play left tackle?

Seriously, though, it's reasonable to question whether Carr is The Answer because he hasn't done anything. But Banks, are you fricking kidding me? If his play on the field isn't enough, then his frigid reception by the other teams during free-agency (both times) should tell you how well he's regarded around the league.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 09:53 AM
Yes I was directing it at you as an example of what I was talking about. BigBull mentioned Manning and Brady in relation to decision making on one particular play and that they would have made the same decision as Carr in that situation. Your take that Manning and Brady shouldn't be discussed in relation to Carr and your demonstration above once again of not separating out a general overall comparison and a play specific or individual decision specific comparison is what I find off base. BigBull didn't say Carr's decision making is just as good as Manning's generally--just that it was the same on one play. People really need to learn to see the difference.

Please stop interpreting my takes with your percieved omniscient viewpoint because I agree with you on how to compare. Please re read my post. I believe Manning would have hit Harrison or Wayne on 4th and long rather than Stokley in double coverage down the line.

The poster says that Bray and Manning would have doen the same thing on that play. I say they would not have on the same play. Are we that far off, from a comparative basis, on how we believe each QB would have acted on the play in this hypothetical?

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 09:58 AM
Please stop interpreting my takes with your percieved omniscient viewpoint because I agree with you on how to compare. Please re read my post. I believe Manning would have hit Harrison or Wayne on 4th and long rather than Stokley in double coverage down the line.

The poster says that Bray and Manning would have doen the same thing on that play. I say they would not have on the same play. Are we that far off, from a comparative basis, on how we believe each QB would have acted on the play in this hypothetical?

OK, well if that was what this:

Your take is valid except for the mention of Payton and Brady. Comparing a three time Super Bowl champ and League MYP to our QB is way off.

was supposed to say then I didn't get it. That looks like what I was using as an example. But if all you were doing is saying they would have hit AJ, ok, but it wasn't real clear, at least to me that you were refering only to the single play being discussed.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 10:02 AM
OK, well if that was what this:



was supposed to say then I didn't get it. That looks like what I was using as an example. But if all you were doing is saying they would have hit AJ, ok, but it wasn't real clear, at least to me that you were refering only to the single play being discussed.

Cool. Upon inspection of my original post I left myself exposed, but the follow up posts did mention the play.

disaacks3
11-07-2005, 10:08 AM
If you directed this to me I believe you are off, on my opinion. My take has been that DC is not cerebral and does not understand time score and situation. The reason why Manning and Brady are so good is because they understand those variables. They would have hit their number one target on 4th and long to give themselves at least four more plays for the tie.

I belive my posts have been consistent on this. There wasn't time enough (or timeouts) enough for 4 more plays. There were 54 seconds and no timeouts left on the clock from the Jacksonville 42. Carr had completed two passes to Bradford on the right sideline earlier in the same series (though one was nullified by a false start). With the Bradford toss, he was behind the coverage and streaking down the sideline. AJ, while deep enough for the first down, was just passing behind the official when Carr felt the need to unload it. You've also got to remember that a FG in this situation wouldn't be enough, you HAD to have a TD!

IMHO - Brady & Manning would've made the same throw Carr did...though THEIR receivers might've caught it.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 10:11 AM
IMHO - Brady & Manning would've made the same throw Carr did...though THEIR receivers might've caught it. No they wouldn't have...because their coaches are smart enough to not start Corey Bradford.:confused: I though he should have made the safer pass on 4th down myself...but won't argue the point here since I've already done it.

Honoring Earl 34
11-07-2005, 10:18 AM
:brickwall I don't mind going deep . We've won one game why not chance it . Bradford could have come up with a play ...and made the rest of the season more interesting but when it rains it pours .

If Bradford does catch the ball and we score , we are down by one ... do you kick an extra point or go for two . If we go for a win and don't make it then is it ok because we're being aggressive . Its the same thing ... 1 play .

BigBull17
11-07-2005, 10:19 AM
Please stop interpreting my takes with your percieved omniscient viewpoint because I agree with you on how to compare. Please re read my post. I believe Manning would have hit Harrison or Wayne on 4th and long rather than Stokley in double coverage down the line.

The poster says that Bray and Manning would have doen the same thing on that play. I say they would not have on the same play. Are we that far off, from a comparative basis, on how we believe each QB would have acted on the play in this hypothetical?

So you think if Stokly had 2 steps on the DB and safty help was late he would not go for the throat? If its tied I could agree but when he needs a TD to tie and his man makes a play he will slash your throat. You dont become an elite QB by ***** footing and being afraid to make the throw with the game on the line. And befor you jump me im not calling Carr an elite QB. Im just saying that in a similar circumstance Manning and Brady would go for the jugular. In the NFL you play to win you dont play not to lose, and Carr showed that he wants to be a winner. If he had hit AJ you would have *****ed and moaned about him not being a clutch playmaker and that we needed a guy who will take chances.

:texflag:

Vinny
11-07-2005, 10:22 AM
I had this in the gamethread but I'll put it down here for the heck of it. That was a great decision and great pass on a first, second, or third down...but not on fourth with the game over if you miss out on a low % sideline lob pass. That just killed the game in one go-for-it-all gamble. Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just didn't get it done...Nobody was near aj. Great players make great plays....Carr made a great throw to Bradford....but it was Corey Freaking Bradford on 4th down on an all or nothing gamble. It's worth debating. I just wish people on the extremes would debate it properly.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 10:28 AM
There wasn't time enough (or timeouts) enough for 4 more plays. There were 54 seconds and no timeouts left on the clock from the Jacksonville 42. Carr had completed two passes to Bradford on the right sideline earlier in the same series (though one was nullified by a false start). With the Bradford toss, he was behind the coverage and streaking down the sideline. AJ, while deep enough for the first down, was just passing behind the official when Carr felt the need to unload it. You've also got to remember that a FG in this situation wouldn't be enough, you HAD to have a TD!

IMHO - Brady & Manning would've made the same throw Carr did...though THEIR receivers might've caught it.

This is where we disagree. I just do not think on that play alone, Brady or Manning would have trusted their most challenged reciever on the field (for the day he was good) on a 4th and 9 situation in double coverage going long.

Carr sympathizers have continously bashed our Oline and WR's. This one was on Carr in my judgment because he knew who he was throwing to. AJ would have caught the ball on the 30 and would have had running room and could have got out of bounds. We could have been looking at 1st and 10 at the 20 with 40 seconds left.

I know there a lot of coulda woulda shouldas, but hey it is what it is we are 1-7.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 10:29 AM
IMHO - Brady & Manning would've made the same throw Carr did...though THEIR receivers might've caught it.

IMO Manning would have gone for the deep throw, Brady about 50/50% which he takes--he likes to hit short passes with the WR running and see what happens.

My take on the the last play is there are good reasons for taking either option and QB's, elite and otherwise, would have split over the decision which basically means neither option is bone-headed and the play is not a glaring example of Carr making a bad decision as asserted by some. It is a classic example of the Texans' season--all it takes is one player not getting it done 4-6 times per game and you go from a 7-9 or even 9-7 team to being a 1-7 team.

As for Walker yelling at Carr--I am glad to see Walker back to form and excited but if he wants to inspire, lead, criticize someone it should be on the D side of the ball. He attacked the O last year and Carr yesterday--that would be fine if the Texans had a top 10 D but they don't. Walker should be in Greenwood's grill and after Peek, Babin, Orr and Coleman (there is someone who deserves a yelling). Once he inspires the D he can go work on the O.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 10:29 AM
I had this in the gamethread but I'll put it down here for the heck of it. That was a great decision and great pass on a first, second, or third down...but not on fourth with the game over if you miss out on a low % sideline lob pass. That just killed the game in one go-for-it-all gamble. Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just did't get it done...Nobody was near aj. Great players make great plays....Carr made a great throw to Bradford....but it was Corey Freaking Bradford on 4th down on an all or nothing gamble. It's worth debating. I just wish people on the extremes would debate it properly.

I understand that throwing to Bradford was questionable in that situation, but still if a QB sees a guy break open on that route, especially with the game Bradford was having up to that point, you have to throw that pass. If he was incapable of getting the ball there or whatever then that is one thing, but he dropped the ball in perfectly and in stride, so I applaud his decision and his throw on that play. DC saw his chance to change the game in that one play and he took it, who knows how a throw at AJ would have gone, I'll have to check game tape on that later this week to see how open he was, but Carr saw a chance to make a bigger play and he went for it, gave the best throw you could ask for, and Bradford couldn't come up with it. Look at the Chiefs/Raiders game yesterday. Vermeil went for the game-winning TD on that last play rather than the safe FG and overtime. He is developing a winners mentality in Kansas City and it paid off for them yesterday. Carr is the same way and was trying to make the big play and it didn't work out. That's been the difference between 1-7 and maybe 4-4.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 10:33 AM
IMO Manning would have gone for the deep throw, Brady about 50/50% which he takes--he likes to hit short passes with the WR running and see what happens.

My take on the the last play is there are good reasons for taking either option and QB's, elite and otherwise, would have split over the decision which basically means neither option is bone-headed and the play is not a glaring example of Carr making a bad decision as asserted by some. It is a classic example of the Texans' season--all it takes is one player not getting it done 4-6 times per game and you go from a 7-9 or even 9-7 team to being a 1-7 team. I just think you go to your franchise player on 4th and go home. That lob pass is a low % pass for a number of reasons.

As for Walker yelling at Carr--I am glad to see Walker back to form and excited but if he wants to inspire, lead, criticize someone it should be on the D side of the ball. He attacked the O last year and Carr yesterday--that would be fine if the Texans had a top 10 D but they don't. Walker should be in Greenwood's grill and after Peek, Babin, Orr and Coleman (there is someone who deserves a yelling). Once he inspires the D he can go work on the O. How do you know he isn't hammering them in the huddle? Carr isn't in any of his huddles. We make too many assumptions sometimes.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just didn't get it done...Nobody was near aj.

I'm going to look at this play again, but my impression at the time was it was simply miscommunication between Carr and AJ--AJ did not look like he was running flat out as the ball was coming down. Was there something particular that made the miscommunication Carr's responsibility rather than AJ's?

disaacks3
11-07-2005, 10:33 AM
I had this in the gamethread but I'll put it down here for the heck of it. That was a great decision and great pass on a first, second, or third down...but not on fourth with the game over if you miss out on a low % sideline lob pass. That just killed the game in one go-for-it-all gamble. Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just did't get it done...Nobody was near aj. Great players make great plays....Carr made a great throw to Bradford....but it was Corey Freaking Bradford on 4th down on an all or nothing gamble. It's worth debating. I just wish people on the extremes would debate it properly. The play earlier to AJ, it's really not apparent who was at fault. Did Carr overthrow (as you suggest) or did AJ get "winded" and stop running the route (as the announcers suggest)?

So, let's debate it properly. Bradford was having one of the best (if not THE best) game he's ever had for the Texans. Corey had already made two sideline catches on the same drive. (AJ also made two catches and Armstrong one as well) Why, on his best (or nearly best) day would you NOT choose to take that chance w/ no timeouts left? Both AJ AND Bradford had beat their coverage. The AJ completion wouldn't give you a TD. At best, you'd have a first down and still have roughly 25-30 yards to cover in about 35-40 seconds.

kenneth24
11-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just didn't get it done...Nobody was near aj. Great players make great plays....Carr made a great throw to Bradford....but it was Corey Freaking Bradford on 4th down on an all or nothing gamble. It's worth debating. I just wish people on the extremes would debate it properly.

By AJ own admission, he thought Carr threw the ball and stopped on his route and the next thing he knew the ball was going over his head. So its Carrs fault for putting Bradford in position to make a easy catch on a well thrown ball and Carrs fault that AJ didn't continue on his route. :brickwall

WWJD
11-07-2005, 10:34 AM
I had to tape the game and haven't watched this last pass....question.

How much time was on the clock? I agree with Vinny. If there was time left you get the first down first and then maybe start trying for the endzone. As it is they missed obviously and well game over in one play.

b) The Walker/Carr thing. If I'm talking, arguing, conversing with my boss I don't want a third person coming over hollering at me. I'm sure Walker did it in the heat of battle but he owes David an apology. I guess they're giving the company line "we're competitive". Fine.

c) Bradford was on the news last night and offered no excuses. He has a badly bruised hand but he said he had his hands on the ball and should have caught it.

d) To me Jacksonville is the team most likely to be moved. The stadium was nowhere near full...my understanding is that is not unusual. I can't imagine the NFL likes that. The guys on the radio said they block off sections that are empty for TV appearance sake.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 10:34 AM
I'm going to look at this play again, but my impression at the time was it was simply miscommunication between Carr and AJ--AJ did not look like he was running flat out as the ball was coming down. Was there something particular that made the miscommunication Carr's responsibility rather than AJ's?I don't know, but I'd like to see Carr hit a guy in what looks like a busted coverage. I was closer to AJ than the defenders were.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 10:34 AM
I understand that throwing to Bradford was questionable in that situation, but still if a QB sees a guy break open on that route, especially with the game Bradford was having up to that point, you have to throw that pass. If he was incapable of getting the ball there or whatever then that is one thing, but he dropped the ball in perfectly and in stride, so I applaud his decision and his throw on that play. DC saw his chance to change the game in that one play and he took it, who knows how a throw at AJ would have gone, I'll have to check game tape on that later this week to see how open he was, but Carr saw a chance to make a bigger play and he went for it, gave the best throw you could ask for, and Bradford couldn't come up with it. Look at the Chiefs/Raiders game yesterday. Vermeil went for the game-winning TD on that last play rather than the safe FG and overtime. He is developing a winners mentality in Kansas City and it paid off for them yesterday. Carr is the same way and was trying to make the big play and it didn't work out. That's been the difference between 1-7 and maybe 4-4.

I am all for a winner's mentality and that is why we should not have thrown to Bradford. Vermiel has arguably the best O line in the league with a young runner coming into this own. He basically put his best assets to work. If you feel that Bradford is our best option, then I agree with your logic, but do not agree with your take.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 10:36 AM
I had to tape the game and haven't watched this last pass....question.

How much time was on the clock?

4-9-JAC42 (:54) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to C.Bradford. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051106_HOU@JAC

That play started with nearly a full min on the clock. You get the first down and give yourself a shot.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 10:39 AM
I just think you go to your franchise player on 4th and go home. That lob pass is a low % pass for a number of reasons.

I tend to agree with you because Bradford is involved, but many teams use their big guy to clear out a Stokely or a Gaffney in that scenario. There were also legitimate early concerns about the LB and the fact that the throw to AJ had a much higher chance of being batted down. I certainly see the play being debateable and probably even the better play being to AJ--it just doesn't rise to the level of bone-headed enough for it to be held up as a glaring example of Carr being incompetent.

How do you know he isn't hammering them in the huddle? Carr isn't in any of his huddles. We make too many assumptions sometimes.

Obviously we don't know everything that tranpires, but I haven't seen Walker actively going after anyone like that in a huddle or on the sideline. He may be talking calmly to people, but he isn't visibly getting upset at people where it can be seen on camera or at the games.

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 10:55 AM
You give your shot at what? Scoring a TD? How good are we in the redzone? Carr can't make the big play? Did you even see Carr lay it into Mathis' Hands last week? Bradford was having a decent day, no reason, not one reason at all you can't rely on your recievers. This is just crazy. Too many people on their wierd agendas and are not looking at these games objectively. [Insert QB's name] throws to [Insert WR] and WR didn't make the catch. On any other team you would absolutely blame the WR for that pass not being caught. It's crazy these people continually blaming Carr for things that are out of his control.

Was AJ guaranteed to catch that "safe" pass? Nope, because in almost every game in he's been in this year he's missed crucial passes. People complain about him not making plays, yet he did his part in putting the ball where the QB needs to. The QB can't catch for him.

This is disgusting.

Frills
11-07-2005, 11:00 AM
Course Carr tried to hit the home run at the end, given 2 choices late in games, he is accustomed to go for it.

When have the texans ever played safe in the last 2 mins? Wether its going for the TD when down by 3 on 4th and goal, to everything else. He saw a chance to take a shot and took it, CB just dropped it.

At least he has the stones to go for it.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 11:03 AM
You give your shot at what? Scoring a TD? How good are we in the redzone? Carr can't make the big play? Did you even see Carr lay it into Mathis' Hands last week? Bradford was having a decent day, no reason, not one reason at all you can't rely on your recievers. This is just crazy. Too many people on their wierd agendas and are not looking at these games objectively. [Insert QB's name] throws to [Insert WR] and WR didn't make the catch. On any other team you would absolutely blame the WR for that pass not being caught. It's crazy these people continually blaming Carr for things that are out of his control.

Was AJ guaranteed to catch that "safe" pass? Nope, because in almost every game in he's been in this year he's missed crucial passes. People complain about him not making plays, yet he did his part in putting the ball where the QB needs to. The QB can't catch for him.

This is disgusting. What's so disgusting? It was 4th down. I thought it was great choice/pass/play on any other down as I have stated. This is a place us Texans fans can share our opinions. This is just something that we can discuss without someone labeling the topic as disgusting. We can discuss this decision here....why not?

mamoo
11-07-2005, 11:06 AM
Carr stated after the game that he saw a linebacker in position on Andre so he went to Corey. On the play where Carr overthrew AJ, both AJ and Carr agreed that Andre lost sight of the ball. AJ thought it was going somewhere else and Carr thought AJ was making the break. It was a timing route and Carr had to throw prior to AJ's break.

As for Carr and Walker getting into the argument. It really was nothing. They were all just PO'ed about losing and emotions sometimes really do get the better of you, especially after a tough loss in a very tough season.

But this is just all talk. Unless something drastic changes with team performance, we're looking at a completely different team next year. (either players or style):bomb:

kenneth24
11-07-2005, 11:06 AM
Course Carr tried to hit the home run at the end, given 2 choices late in games, he is accustomed to go for it.

When have the texans ever played safe in the last 2 mins? Wether its going for the TD when down by 3 on 4th and goal, to everything else. He saw a chance to take a shot and took it, CB just dropped it.

At least he has the stones to go for it.

Texans always play it safe in the last 2 minutes...Thats whats so aggravating! First play of every drive with less than 2 mins on the clock is going to be a draw play! As coach says "we were trying to catch them by surprise"

Finally someone had the stones to go for it! and of course being the hypocrites most fans are, Carr gets criticized for it.:texflag:

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 11:09 AM
You give your shot at what? Scoring a TD? How good are we in the redzone? Carr can't make the big play? Did you even see Carr lay it into Mathis' Hands last week? Bradford was having a decent day, no reason, not one reason at all you can't rely on your recievers. This is just crazy. Too many people on their wierd agendas and are not looking at these games objectively. [Insert QB's name] throws to [Insert WR] and WR didn't make the catch. On any other team you would absolutely blame the WR for that pass not being caught. It's crazy these people continually blaming Carr for things that are out of his control.

Was AJ guaranteed to catch that "safe" pass? Nope, because in almost every game in he's been in this year he's missed crucial passes. People complain about him not making plays, yet he did his part in putting the ball where the QB needs to. The QB can't catch for him.

This is disgusting.

This is disgusting because we are building arguements upon tangent arguments. I agree with objectivity, that is why I would not compare the throw to Mathis as the same with the last throw of the game against the Jags. Time, score and situation is crucial to this debate.

As far as your last innuendo, you have left yourself exposed to the bench DC party. :)

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 11:14 AM
Everyone complains about us not going long and stretching the field. Well we finally do and the reciever doesn't make the catch. So what does this tell the defense? Carr had a very good day. He made very accurate throws, it's up to the receivers to make those catches. We've seen time and time again that is Carr has time to make his throws he makes them.

I saw that last play 3 times last night and the LB is right there with AJ. People accuse Carr of not looking for other receivers and "locking on", well he made a great adjustment there. He targeted AJ, saw coverage on him, went to his #2 option and noticed it was man coverage with the safety out of position to me the deep play. Kudos to Carr for making a check off and making his throw, but you won't hear any of his critics say that. It's not on their agenda.

Honoring Earl 34
11-07-2005, 01:52 PM
:texflag: If a LB is with AJ its only for a blink . They have not invented a LB who can cover AJ .
I still consider AJ the best player we have on offense ... and on that note I agree with Vinny that I'd prefer losing with my best pitch . I will not complain though about the pass because it should have been caught .

El Tejano
11-07-2005, 01:59 PM
The pass should've been caught and it was a decision that was made based on trying to win the game rather than playing it safe. That being said, I blame noone but the receiver who dropped it. I don't blame the game on him though because he made plenty of catches that allowed us to be in the lead and stay in the game. I will just say that Bradford has to go and I still have to wonder another week about what kind of attack we would have if Mathis and Johnson are on the field at the same time.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 02:13 PM
I'm all for going with "your best pitch" as you put it, but at the same time I like Carr's gutsy decision to go with the option for the biggest play. It didn't work out in our favor in the end, but I like playing for the win there. I hope DC keeps that up and that the OC gives him opportunities to make plays like that and I hope that we make a play on it when those times come.

rmartin65
11-07-2005, 02:14 PM
On the plus side, Mathis should be okay next week so CB can sit.:yahoo:

False Start
11-07-2005, 02:15 PM
Gary Walker really had no reason to get on Carr IMO . He hasnt exactly been a warrior out there the past two seasons . Besides these last two games , I cant remember him doing anything spectacular .

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 02:15 PM
:texflag: If a LB is with AJ its only for a blink . They have not invented a LB who can cover AJ .
I still consider AJ the best player we have on offense ... and on that note I agree with Vinny that I'd prefer losing with my best pitch . I will not complain though about the pass because it should have been caught .How long would you give him then? On 3rd down and long you'd expect some pressure, just like we've gotten all game. I counted 2 seconds on the read to Andre. How many complain about Carr holding onto the ball and "locking on" to his recievers? Geez, you can't have it both ways. He on has fractions of a second to make decisions. Look at how awful the pass protection was breaking down with Wand in there. This is just so hindsight and it wasn't even Carrs fault.

Runner
11-07-2005, 02:22 PM
d) To me Jacksonville is the team most likely to be moved. The stadium was nowhere near full...my understanding is that is not unusual. I can't imagine the NFL likes that. The guys on the radio said they block off sections that are empty for TV appearance sake.

The field was not only "nowhere near full" but they have big tarps with advertisements on them covering large sections of seats in the upper reaches of the stadium because they know they won't be used.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 02:29 PM
To me Jacksonville is the team most likely to be moved. The stadium was nowhere near full...my understanding is that is not unusual. I can't imagine the NFL likes that. The guys on the radio said they block off sections that are empty for TV appearance sake.

I have heard such rumors too but I have to believe the Saints would be most likely to get moved permanently since New Orleans was already an unprofitable city and the team can't even play there for at least another year.

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 02:39 PM
What's so disgusting? It was 4th down. I thought it was great choice/pass/play on any other down as I have stated. This is a place us Texans fans can share our opinions. This is just something that we can discuss without someone labeling the topic as disgusting. We can discuss this decision here....why not?

After having looked back at again, IMO it is a function of the emphasis on getting the ball out quickly. Carr does look 1st at AJ--at that moment, one Jag has his hands on AJ still and is running right with him. AJ is running right to left and approaching the area of a LB. At that point, AJ is not wide open. Carr goes to his 2nd option finds Bradford open (and folks that want to talk about double coverage need to go buy some pie and stuff it in the appropriate spot--Deion Grant is so far out of the play it doesn't even count as double coverage--I would bench any QB who wasn't willing to throw into that coverage) and immediately takes his shot. If Carr had held his read on AJ another half second he would have seen AJ come open (which by the way it looks like the two Jags tangle on each other a little contributing to the opening), but how much has he been yelled at to get the ball out. His two seconds were already up when he went from reading AJ to Bradford. I can't see how this one play demonstrates below average QB play.

Vinny
11-07-2005, 02:42 PM
I can't see how this one play demonstrates below average QB play.Agreed, and this thread is about the argument (Argument on sideline??? is the thread title)...and the argument came right after that play. I think it's something that can be discussed amongst fans and without talking down to each other based on a difference of opinion. I'm not applying that to you, but this board is a board of fans talking about the game....and this thread was about that play. Discuss it if you want....don't touch it if you want to talk down to the posters for sharing their opinions.

wags
11-07-2005, 02:42 PM
After having looked back at again, IMO it is a function of the emphasis on getting the ball out quickly. Carr does look 1st at AJ--at that moment, one Jag has his hands on AJ still and is running right with him. AJ is running right to left and approaching the area of a LB. At that point, AJ is not wide open. Carr goes to his 2nd option finds Bradford open (and folks that want to talk about double coverage need to go buy some pie and stuff it in the appropriate spot--Deion Grant is so far out of the play it doesn't even count as double coverage--I would bench any QB who wasn't willing to throw into that coverage) and immediately takes his shot. If Carr had held his read on AJ another half second he would have seen AJ come open (which by the way it looks like the two Jags tangle on each other a little contributing to the opening), but how much has he been yelled at to get the ball out. His two seconds were already up when he went from reading AJ to Bradford. I can't see how this one play demonstrates below average QB play.

If aj is the "voice of the fan" you need to start a column called the "voice of reason."

Good stuff.

MorKnolle
11-07-2005, 02:43 PM
Carr saw his chance to make a big, potentially game-tying play, and he took his chance. He delivered a perfect pass but it didn't work out. Great decision on his part. End of story.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2005, 02:55 PM
After having looked back at again, IMO it is a function of the emphasis on getting the ball out quickly. Carr does look 1st at AJ--at that moment, one Jag has his hands on AJ still and is running right with him. AJ is running right to left and approaching the area of a LB. At that point, AJ is not wide open. Carr goes to his 2nd option finds Bradford open (and folks that want to talk about double coverage need to go buy some pie and stuff it in the appropriate spot--Deion Grant is so far out of the play it doesn't even count as double coverage--I would bench any QB who wasn't willing to throw into that coverage) and immediately takes his shot. If Carr had held his read on AJ another half second he would have seen AJ come open (which by the way it looks like the two Jags tangle on each other a little contributing to the opening), but how much has he been yelled at to get the ball out. His two seconds were already up when he went from reading AJ to Bradford. I can't see how this one play demonstrates below average QB play.

Fair observation, I will look at the play later.

Runner
11-07-2005, 02:57 PM
Agreed, this thread is about the argument (Argument on sideline??? is the thread title)...and the argument came right after that play.

Good point. Here is my take on the argument to get back on track. I'm going to accept what previous posters have said it looked like the players were saying.

Previously the lip readers stated that Carr was saying something like "he wasn't open" in response to Pendry's coaching*. Anyway Carr and Pendry apparently bark at each other a while and Carr walks away from Pendry, at which point Walker steps in tells Carr something like "take the coaching". So that's why Carr and Walker got into it; we can each have our own opinion to the appropriateness of Walker's intervention between an offensive player and his coach.

However, I don't think Pendry was yelling at Carr about the final play. I think he was telling Carr he should have passed the ball on his last sack; to which Carr was saying "he wasn't open".

*Some people would call it Pendry's yelling; who would of thought that approach would wear thin so fast?

Texans Horror
11-07-2005, 03:23 PM
Good point. Here is my take on the argument to get back on track. I'm going to accept what previous posters have said it looked like the players were saying.

Previously the lip readers stated that Carr was saying something like "he wasn't open" in response to Pendry's coaching*. Anyway Carr and Pendry apparently bark at each other a while and Carr walks away from Pendry, at which point Walker steps in tells Carr something like "take the coaching". So that's why Carr and Walker got into it; we can each have our own opinion to the appropriateness of Walker's intervention between an offensive player and his coach.

However, I don't think Pendry was yelling at Carr about the final play. I think he was telling Carr he should have passed the ball on his last sack; to which Carr was saying "he wasn't open".

*Some people would call it Pendry's yelling; who would of thought that approach would wear thin so fast?

Carr should not be arguing with his Offensive Coordinator. Irregardless of whether or not you agree with the coaching (and btw - I don't; I think Pendry was more of a problem than Palmer), you are not getting paid millions of dollars to fight with management, especially not on the sidelines. It's very unprofessional. You should be a team player and do what you're told. Walker, like Payne, is just trying to keep the team motivated and moving forward. This reminds me of Young's time in San Fran when Mariuci benched him. Young exploded on the sidelines, then took the Niners to the Superbowl.

mean mark8
11-07-2005, 04:40 PM
Good point. Here is my take on the argument to get back on track. I'm going to accept what previous posters have said it looked like the players were saying.

Previously the lip readers stated that Carr was saying something like "he wasn't open" in response to Pendry's coaching*. Anyway Carr and Pendry apparently bark at each other a while and Carr walks away from Pendry, at which point Walker steps in tells Carr something like "take the coaching". So that's why Carr and Walker got into it; we can each have our own opinion to the appropriateness of Walker's intervention between an offensive player and his coach.

However, I don't think Pendry was yelling at Carr about the final play. I think he was telling Carr he should have passed the ball on his last sack; to which Carr was saying "he wasn't open".

*Some people would call it Pendry's yelling; who would of thought that approach would wear thin so fast?

I agree that the argument was more likely about the 2 fumbles/sacks Carr had on our last drive. I don't see Pendry arguing with Carr for hitting an open man at the 5-yard line in the hands. As for Bradford, and all of the other receivers, quit diving for the freaking ball. Diving guarantees that you are going to hit something, either a defender or the ground, and it slows you down. Run through the ball and you will maintain your speed, have a chance of making yards after the catch, and not have the ground cause you to drop one. Bradford loves to dive for balls and let the ground break-up the catch for him. It's been proven that diving for a ball slows the receiver down because he is not continuing the running motion. How many 100 meter sprinters do you see dive for the tape?

Vinny
11-07-2005, 04:43 PM
How many 100 meter sprinters do you see dive for the tape? If Corey was a 100 meter sprinter he would dive at the tape and miss it.

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 04:49 PM
If Corey was a 100 meter sprinter he would dive at the tape and miss it.
And somehow it would still be David Carr's fault.:fight:

infantrycak
11-07-2005, 05:34 PM
Carr should not be arguing with his Offensive Coordinator. Irregardless of whether or not you agree with the coaching (and btw - I don't; I think Pendry was more of a problem than Palmer), you are not getting paid millions of dollars to fight with management, especially not on the sidelines. It's very unprofessional.

I agree with you up until the professional level and even then most of the time, but at some point I want the QB to step up and be a leader. That includes telling a coach he is wrong, underutilizing players, whatever. I don't want a bunch of open or media fighting, but I certainly don't mind a QB disagreeing with a coach who hasn't even had the benefit of game tape yet to say whether a WR was open. Pendry should have saved that for a less emotional moment like say in the game tape review session--exactly what it is for.

Runner
11-07-2005, 06:26 PM
I agree with you up until the professional level and even then most of the time, but at some point I want the QB to step up and be a leader. That includes telling a coach he is wrong, underutilizing players, whatever. I don't want a bunch of open or media fighting, but I certainly don't mind a QB disagreeing with a coach who hasn't even had the benefit of game tape yet to say whether a WR was open. Pendry should have saved that for a less emotional moment like say in the game tape review session--exactly what it is for.

In addition, they are all adults. Yelling and swearing and stuff is OK for emphasis, but if it's your primary mode of communication I think you end up with pretty low bandwidth.

For instance I think Capers should try some screaming and stomping around, and Pendry should back off some.

This is my interpretation from 50 yards away, so it could be all wrong, but:

Next time you're at the game watch Pendry draw up plays or go over photos with the players - he has a lot of fire and brimstone, but it looks like one way communication to me. I rarely see a player try to make it two way communication, point out things on the paper for discussion, etc.

run-david-run
11-07-2005, 07:20 PM
I had this in the gamethread but I'll put it down here for the heck of it. That was a great decision and great pass on a first, second, or third down...but not on fourth with the game over if you miss out on a low % sideline lob pass. That just killed the game in one go-for-it-all gamble. Carr also missed a wide open AJ for a TD or at least a huge catch and run a couple of plays earlier that would have either tied the game then or we would have been within a short pass to get in the end zone....Carr just didn't get it done...Nobody was near aj. Great players make great plays....Carr made a great throw to Bradford....but it was Corey Freaking Bradford on 4th down on an all or nothing gamble. It's worth debating. I just wish people on the extremes would debate it properly.
He did not make a bad throw, AJ went one way whille Carr thought he was gonna go the other way. Seeing as AJ has been hurt and out of practice, that is very understandable... just so happned with the game on the line...

aj.
11-07-2005, 07:32 PM
Ah yes, 'proper debate.' What's next, the tea and scones forum?

THEFUTURE
11-07-2005, 09:24 PM
anyone that can look back at that throw sees it goes right into Bradfords hands and he drops it.. double coverage, sure.. but they were both behind him. Carr put the ball exactly where it needed to be. if Bradford made that catch, no one would be saying a thing about that throw. it was a play that most receivers make, that Bradford can't... as for Walker, let him worry about his defense... cuz it needs help too. It needed more help yesterday than the offense did.

CajunTexan
11-07-2005, 09:41 PM
He did not make a bad throw, AJ went one way whille Carr thought he was gonna go the other way. Seeing as AJ has been hurt and out of practice, that is very understandable... just so happned with the game on the line...

In Richard Justices article in the Chronicle today, he quotes AJ as saying (paraphrasing)" I was winded. I looked back and didn't see him so I let up. Then I turned around and saw the ball in the air."

Who can blame him. How many times does a receiver look back and NOT SEE DC BECAUSE HE IS LAYING ON HIS BACK! Anyway, those things will happen with AJ having been out. I think that DC did a good job in the 610 interview of not putting that miss on AJ after AJ went on record that it was his bad.:texflag:

Vinny
11-07-2005, 09:46 PM
Ah yes, 'proper debate.' What's next, the tea and scones forum?everyone complains when this place fills up with nonsense posts. We do the best we can. We can't please everyone.

HoustonFan
11-07-2005, 09:49 PM
Bottomline, both offense and defense ran out of gas in the 4th., and injuries REALLY hurt us. G-Funk is right to be fired up against losing to his old team. Carr just needs to be ready for battle when they come to town in the upcoming weeks - nothing like stealing their chance at a playoff run again.

edo783
11-07-2005, 09:57 PM
Carr just needs to be ready for battle when they come to town in the upcoming weeks - nothing like stealing their chance at a playoff run again.

How COOL would that be. Knock them out of the playoffs two years in a row! Might be a real sucky year for us, but that would feel pretty good if we caused them to be sitting at home at years end. :texflag:

GP
11-07-2005, 10:16 PM
Any updates?

As I sift through the posts, this is what I am gathering (tell me differently if I'm wrong):

-------------------

The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).

The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.

Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.

-------------------

This is a plausible scenario. In the past few weeks, we've had Seth Payne step up and verbally challenge the team...and now it appears Gary Walker is attempting to also rally the team and lead them after a tough loss by reprimanding Carr for openly arguing with Pendry instead of just taking the same coaching that everyone else is getting.

Whether you like Carr or not, I think we all agree that he's not very good at getting in people's faces (in a DIRECT manner) to challenge them when they fail to execute on either easy plays or crucial plays. He seems to try and take a high road and not point fingers, at least not in an overly direct and personal manner. Perhaps Gary's motive was to let David know that sometimes being a man or a leader on a team or anywhere else means you have to let go of "what people think of you" and throw caution to the wind by challenging someone up front and in their face?

I know that Bradford scooped David away from the situation...I saw Bradford wrap his arm around Carr and drag him out of it while Carr was still engaged in the moment with Pendry/Walker. I think it's ironic that the guy who dropped the ball is rescuing the guy who threw the ball, as if maybe Bradford was taking the blame 100% and was not going to let Carr get caught up in something that was his (Bradford's) fault and less Carr's fault.

Heat of the moment? Most likely it was. All I know is that I'm glad to see a few players actually make a connection, in terms of providing some fireworks amongst each other, rather than isolating and building walls around themselves after tough losses. The mundane and consistently mournful attitude of these players up until this game was what was killing me the most...as if it was just another day, another dollar.

If anybody has any updates, or any correction to "how" it took place and "what exactly took place," let us know.

WWJD
11-07-2005, 10:21 PM
The only thing I could tell that was different from the tape I watched yesterday is David had the LAST word. When the teams were greeting each other on the field after the game David was the one being restrained by somebody and he was not happy. You could tell he was being very loud and Walker just walked away with another man taking the tape off his hand. With a big scowl on his face BTW.

What I saw yesterday was Walker getting in David's face and David not really saying anything. That was before the game was over.

One of the local stations showed the footage but I don't remember which one.

Texans Horror
11-07-2005, 10:22 PM
nice post, gpshafer

WWJD
11-07-2005, 10:33 PM
Bradford DID take the blame. They showed him on 13 after the game and his hand was badly bruised and he said he had his hands on the ball and should have caught it. He even said that if his hand was broken he should have caught the ball. He took the blame.

Honoring Earl 34
11-07-2005, 10:33 PM
:tomato: I heard Carr picked up a ball and was going to hit Walker with it kinda like in the Longest Yard ... but would'nt you know it he held it too long and Walker planted him into the Altel turf .

GP
11-07-2005, 10:34 PM
(Updated portion is the last paragraph, contributed by WWJD):

---------------------

The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).

The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.

Seeing Carr's response to Pendry, Gary Walker tells Carr to "...take the coaching" or something to that effect, meaning that Gary didn't appreciate Carr arguing with Pendry.

The argument on the sideline, after the 4th down drop by Bradford, was less about Carr throwing to Bradford and more about the previous bungled plays(sacks and fumbles).

The main players in the argument were Pendry and Carr with Carr possibly getting hammered by Pendry for taking a sack, to which Carr responded to Pendry that a WR "wasn't open.." on that play.

by WWJD: David had the LAST word. When the teams were greeting each other on the field after the game David was the one being restrained by somebody and he was not happy. You could tell he was being very loud and Walker just walked away with another man taking the tape off Walker's hand. And Walker had a big scowl on his face, by the way.

--------------------

SESupergenius
11-07-2005, 11:52 PM
If that is the case then I'm ok with him being yelled at. Not that he really could do much about it, but certainly nobody shoud be getting his face for that beauty of a pass to Bradford.

texan0305
11-08-2005, 01:10 AM
I would have got into carr's face also his decision making at points of the year is horrible, im one of david carrs biggest fans but no one can argue the fact that he sometime makes stupid decisions, there have been countless number of times this year and even in that jacksonville game that carr should have thrown the ball away, stop trying to be a hero and throw the ball to the sidelines. If i was Gary Walker i would have yacked some more, i want to see Dom get mad at someone, you dont go 1-7 and then not blame ur starting qb a little bit :brickwall oh well the phrase "theres always next year" is getting a bit repetitive..... Fire Casserly, Fire Dom, Draft - Reggie Bush- (da new playmaker!)

cuppacoffee
11-08-2005, 09:18 AM
OK, everybody...

Let's roll up our sleeves and find out what the big deal was at the end of the game.

The cameras caught Bradford pulling Carr away from Gary Walker...and Walker was all up in Carr's grill about something. The look on Carr's face was a look of total fright. And Bradford seemed to be yanking him away because Bradford knew G-Funk was on a collision course with Carr?

Was Walker confronting Carr? Or was Carr defending himself or defending Bradford? Something BIG happened and we gotta found out what went down.

Please try and found out the scoop if you can.



I finally found out the real scoop on profootballtalk.com / rumor mill.

Texans QB David Carr and DE Gary Walker got into an argument on the way to the locker room after Sunday's loss to the Jacksonville (said Carr to Walker, "I've been hit by bigger men than you . . . lots of them . . . lots of times . . . what's my name again?")....:rolleyes:

Posted only for comic relief from the strain of losing games.
Use link only if you must. :embarrass

You will have to scroll down to find it, not worth the trouble though, nothing new. (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

cac: :coffee:

gtexan02
11-08-2005, 10:13 AM
Nov 7 Texans quarterback David Carr and defensive end Gary Walker had to be separated by vice president of communications Tony Wyllie, during a heated exchange following Sunday's loss to the Jaguars, the Houston Chronicle reports. The squabble was the by-product of an opportunity lost after a 14-7 lead heading into the fourth quarter vanished. "I knew you guys were going to make a bigger thing out of it than it is," Walker told the Chronicle. "I'll get with David. We'll take care of it. It's not a big deal." Carr addressed the situation saying, "That's going to happen. It's like brothers fighting. He's so competitive. And so am I. And when you put us in the situation where he's playing his old team and I am playing a team I can't stand and we come up short on the last play, we might have some words."
Views: The Texans hardly need problems in the locker room as it's obvious they have plenty problems on the field. This is likely just a result of a disappointing loss and shouldn't have any long-term affect on the team's ability to compete.

aj.
11-08-2005, 11:59 AM
Views: The Texans hardly need problems in the locker room as it's obvious they have plenty problems on the field..

A different view: The Texans already have problems in the locker room and we're seeing them spill onto the field.

cuppacoffee
11-08-2005, 03:38 PM
A different view: The Texans already have problems in the locker room and we're seeing them spill onto the field.


:hmmm: You may have something there.

Any spark of life at this stage of the season should be appreciated though. :sbad:


cac: :coffee:

Kaiser Toro
11-08-2005, 05:54 PM
A different view: The Texans already have problems in the locker room and we're seeing them spill onto the field.

Do not doubt it at 1-7. I am sure lines are being drawn and knots being tied for multiple nooses. The day of reckoning is upon them and sides are being taken.

Honoring Earl 34
11-08-2005, 07:07 PM
:texflag: Walker was one of the players who did not think Carr's Pa should be hangin around the players . I guess he has other opinions also .

U4ikrob
11-09-2005, 07:24 AM
Any updates?

As I sift through the posts, this is what I am gathering (tell me differently if I'm wrong):

-------------------
If anybody has any updates, or any correction to "how" it took place and "what exactly took place," let us know.

This piece was in this mornings Chronicle and should end most of the debate about what the arguement was on.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216

"Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.

Advice from veteran
Carr responded to Pendry by explaining that he threw to Bradford because Bradford had one-on-one coverage with cornerback Kenny Wright and added something like, "Did you see that pass?"

Walker heard Carr fire back at Pendry and questioned the quarterback's ability to accept coaching. Then Carr got into it with Walker, and they had to be separated."

Kaiser Toro
11-09-2005, 07:33 AM
This piece was in this mornings Chronicle and should end most of the debate about what the arguement was on.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216

"Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.

Advice from veteran
Carr responded to Pendry by explaining that he threw to Bradford because Bradford had one-on-one coverage with cornerback Kenny Wright and added something like, "Did you see that pass?"

Walker heard Carr fire back at Pendry and questioned the quarterback's ability to accept coaching. Then Carr got into it with Walker, and they had to be separated."

We should fire Pendry right away for not agreeing with most of the posters on this message board that David should have thrown to Bradford.

Lucky
11-09-2005, 07:37 AM
We should fire Pendry right away...
Let's wait until the end of the season.

Runner
11-09-2005, 08:19 AM
We should fire Pendry right away for not agreeing with most of the posters on this message board that David should have thrown to Bradford.

Or fire Carr for agreeing with them?

Apparently this play isn't all that cut and dried, if coach and QB disagree.

I've said before and I'll say again, either pass was OK with me, but I preferred the one that was thrown because it was aggressive. There are good arguments on both sides about if 4th down was the place to take the risk, but many people on this board have been looking for us to be less conservative. Less conservative means some shots at big plays won't work.

TheOgre
11-09-2005, 08:43 AM
I actually agree with Pendry, and I said such earlier in this thread. Despite throwing a perfect pass to Bradford, it was a mistake. On 4th down with sufficient time left to score, Carr needs to be going for the high percentage play to keep the drive alive and live to fight another play.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 09:04 AM
I actually agree with Pendry, and I said such earlier in this thread. Despite throwing a perfect pass to Bradford, it was a mistake. On 4th down with sufficient time left to score, Carr needs to be going for the high percentage play to keep the drive alive and live to fight another play.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216

May be a case of cranial flatulence, but can you remind me of when the Texans have successfully moved 30+ yds in 45 seconds to finish the game with a TD when they had to have a TD?

In the 2003 Jags game they scored on the last play of the game, but they took 2:40 to move 40 yds and didn't need the TD.

We got the ball on the Jets 27 with 1:04 in 2003 and couldn't get the ball in.

Runner
11-09-2005, 09:08 AM
May be a case of cranial flatulence, but can you remind me of when the Texans have successfully moved 30+ yds in 45 seconds to finish the game with a TD when they had to have a TD?

In the 2003 Jags game they scored on the last play of the game, but they took 2:40 to move 40 yds and didn't need the TD.

Yes! We can usually crank out a touchdown every 30 minutes.

Wait - it was 30 seconds????????

TheOgre
11-09-2005, 09:54 AM
May be a case of cranial flatulence, but can you remind me of when the Texans have successfully moved 30+ yds in 45 seconds to finish the game with a TD when they had to have a TD?

In the 2003 Jags game they scored on the last play of the game, but they took 2:40 to move 40 yds and didn't need the TD.

We got the ball on the Jets 27 with 1:04 in 2003 and couldn't get the ball in.

I don't have a problem if that play is 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd down. The problem is that play is a low percentage one on 4th down. That is probably a 30% chance of making that play AT BEST. You don't convert and it is game over. That means there is a 70%+ chance that the game is over on that play.

Whereas Carr throws a 10 yard pass for a first it has approximately a 55 percent chance of completion. It might even be higher for a defense playing the prevent. So the game is only over about 45% of the time after that play. If you complete it across the middle (I think we were out of timeouts, but I cannot remember), you can run up and kill the clock. That gives you at least 3 pass plays from around the 20-25 with about 30 seconds left. Personally, I prefer those odds to the route Carr took.

Hey Carr has to begin to show some 4th quarter mojo soon or he won't be playing in the NFL for long. Just because he has failed in the past, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to win the smart way. If he continues to be inept in the clutch, then we find someone who can win the close ones. The difference in 4-5 wins a season can be these nail biters.

metalmike
11-09-2005, 09:55 AM
It doesn't really matter, we still lost. Despite what some of you guys think, Carr had a decent game, not great but good. He's out there with a patched up O-Line. No QB would be winning with us right now. His confidence is shot. I don't know if he will ever get it back. But we need O-Line for sure, and a different coaching staff all together. They all suck. We have a good RB, a good #1 Wr, and a good Db. That's about it.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 10:04 AM
I don't have a problem if that play is 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd down. The problem is that play is a low percentage one on 4th down. That is probably a 30% chance of making that play AT BEST. You don't convert and it is game over. That means there is a 70%+ chance that the game is over on that play.

Whereas Carr throws a 10 yard pass for a first it has approximately a 55 percent chance of completion. It might even be higher for a defense playing the prevent. So the game is only over about 45% of the time after that play. If you complete it across the middle (I think we were out of timeouts, but I cannot remember), you can run up and kill the clock. That gives you at least 3 pass plays from around the 20-25 with about 30 seconds left. Personally, I prefer those odds to the route Carr took.

Hey Carr has to begin to show some 4th quarter mojo soon or he won't be playing in the NFL for long. Just because he has failed in the past, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to win the smart way. If he continues to be inept in the clutch, then we find someone who can win the close ones. The difference in 4-5 wins a season can be these nail biters.

Here is my problem with that analysis. Yeah, the Bradford option was the lower % pass when the play was called. Everyone knew that, which it is why it was the 2nd read. IMO people are analyzing this completely wrong though--the option Carr had was not AJ or Bradford. IMO AJ was covered during the time period Carr was looking at him. The critical decision by Carr was not throw to Bradford or AJ but continue looking at AJ (read 1) to see if he comes open OR look to Bradford (read 2) to see if he is open--once Carr looks to see if Bradford is open, is anyone really going to argue Carr should have ignored the open receiver and looked back to see if AJ was open?--thereby losing the Bradford option (running out of space and safety on his way). Read 2 is there for a reason and Carr has been hammered here and by the coaching staff to make his reads quickly and get the ball in the air. The option wasn't between two open receivers, it was whether to continuing to look at his primary (sometimes called staring down the WR) or quickly go to his next read.

The other problem I have with your 30% is it is static. The option to Bradford may have only had a 30% chance in the huddle, but after he came wide open it had a 60% chance (when Carr made the decision to throw) and after Carr made a solid throw it had a 90% chance--the odds change as the play unfolds.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 10:07 AM
His confidence is shot.

In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.

wags
11-09-2005, 10:09 AM
Here is my problem with that analysis. Yeah, the Bradford option was the lower % pass when the play was called. Everyone knew that, which it is why it was the 2nd read. IMO people are analyzing this completely wrong though--the option Carr had was not AJ or Bradford. IMO AJ was covered during the time period Carr was looking at him. The critical decision by Carr was not throw to Bradford or AJ but continue looking at AJ (read 1) to see if he comes open OR look to Bradford (read 2) to see if he is open--once Carr looks to Bradford is open, is anyone really going to argue Carr should have ignored the open receiver and looked back to see if AJ was open?--thereby losing the Bradford option (running out of space and safety on his way). Read 2 is there for a reason and Carr has been hammered here and by the coaching staff to make his reads quickly and get the ball in the air. The option wasn't between two open receivers, it was whether to continuing to look at his primary (sometimes called staring down the WR) or quickly go to his next read.

I find it funny that people who argue that Carr locks onto receivers are now saying he is at fault for not locking on AJ until he got open.

As a side, why isn't AJ getting as much heat for giving up on his route that would have surely been a touchdown?

SESupergenius
11-09-2005, 11:26 AM
I think it's pretty clear from all of the level headed analysis and 2nd looks in this thread that the Carr Bashers have shown what tunnel vision they clearly do have and have lost a bit of creditibility after the guy did what they always complain about. He went through his progressions, made a play with is reads and accuracy and stayed in the pocket. After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.

Ibar_Harry
11-09-2005, 11:44 AM
I think it's pretty clear from all of the level headed analysis and 2nd looks in this thread that the Carr Bashers have shown what tunnel vision they clearly do have and have lost a bit of credit after the guy did what they always complain about. He went through his progressions, made a play with is reads and accuracy and stayed in the pocket. After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.

Yes, he made a touchdown read and delivered the ball. As Madden would say, the receiver has to catch the ball in that situation. To throw to AJ under the coverage is a loosers mentality when the TD is their for the asking. AJ's hands have been questionable at times to. Their is no certainty to the catch. I will admit, however, that Bradford is very unlikely to catch the ball. I still think we would have been better off keeping Starling, but that's just my opinion. Same speed, but a lot better hands.

BigBull17
11-09-2005, 11:48 AM
In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.
That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.

TexanBearkat
11-09-2005, 11:56 AM
We're already 1-7, the season is lost. I'd definitely say it's fair to bench Carr and see what else we have at the QB position. It's not like things would get worse, now would they?

I think the Texans already know what they have in the other two QB's. Ragone is a guy not in their long term plans and Banks is at this point a backup, no better than that. Neither one will be on this team next year.

BigBull17
11-09-2005, 12:00 PM
In the context of a conversation about going for the more difficult game winning option vs. the safe option, that comment seems a little odd.
That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.

Runner
11-09-2005, 12:01 PM
That throw was all balls and it looks like his confidence is starting to rise. Plays like that wont always be dropped and they will get the hook up eventually.


Good thing Pendry immediately stepped in to knock it down a couple of notches!

Kaiser Toro
11-09-2005, 12:27 PM
After the ball leaves his hand and into anothers, its out of his control.

You are correct with this last statment, the other part is debatable which many are indeed doing.

The bashers as I see them come from many different viewpoints. Some talk about locking in, leadership, decision making, etc. So it is difficult to lump every Carr basher together. Just as OLine bashers all have their own ideas to improve the lot.

I have no problem agreeing with people that Carr played one of his best games. The Carr bashers, as I suppose I am lumped into, see things that give us hesitation to annoint him as the future QB with the prospective price tag that is afforded mid range to top tier QB's. There have been two plays late in the game against the Browns and Jags that warrant questions about his decision making - the running out of bounds vs the Browns and this pass against the Jags. If he continues to make these decisions we may have another Jeff George on our hands minus the attitude.

It would be helpful that everyone understand that most people on this board want to desperatley win and even show marked improvement. We come to this board to exchange ideas and express opinions. To say anyone is right or wrong is ludicrous. Only the 50+ people in the locker room, staff and front office really know what is going on. The fans are left with nothing but speculation and innuendo and therefore live in a tunnel.

texan0305
11-09-2005, 02:17 PM
Show me results, what have you done for me lately thats what i have to say about Carr as it's evident he's gone 1-7 this year, he's the leader of this team supposidely he has every right to be blamed a little bit, now i'm not saying all the blame but some.........the o line sucks thats managements fault, there line backing core sucks, thats managements fault, and they have an inconsistant secondary unit, again management (carr had nothing to do with some of the offseason moves well i hope not if he did than that gives me more to bash about..) you cant really pick out that many bright spots on this team, this is just a horrible football team any coach that comes to houston next year or gm has a task at hand its going to take some time to get this ship turned around......:tv: hey atleast we have a team to watch though.....

El Tejano
11-09-2005, 02:30 PM
That pass was out of pure wanting to win rather than stay out of the redzone and set our selves up for another sack.

TheOgre
11-09-2005, 03:08 PM
The other problem I have with your 30% is it is static. The option to Bradford may have only had a 30% chance in the huddle, but after he came wide open it had a 60% chance (when Carr made the decision to throw) and after Carr made a solid throw it had a 90% chance--the odds change as the play unfolds.

Your argument lost credibility when you said a long pass to Bradford has a 90% chance. I don't think a 1 yard flat pass has a 90% chance with Bradford.

He wasn't so open that this play had a 60% chance BEFORE Carr threw it. The corner was right behind him, and the safety was still in a position to come over the top. If the pass isn't perfect, it is game over. Even if it is a perfect pass, which it was, there are a ton of variables that will result in a negative outcome. Obviously we saw one of those key variables, Bradford's hands.

IMO Carr made an athletic play, but the wrong decision under those circumstances. That has characterized his career to date. There really isn't anything you can say that would sway my opinion on that. Again, if it were any other down than 4th, I would have a different opinion on the play.

Texans Horror
11-09-2005, 03:14 PM
Three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics. We could argue this forever (and already have).

SESupergenius
11-09-2005, 03:17 PM
It's not like a FG would have tied the game, we needed a TD. Going for the win was the right call.

Runner
11-09-2005, 03:19 PM
It's not like a FG would have tied the game, we needed a TD. Going for the win was the right call.

I don't know. Maybe the conservative thing to do was not go for it on 4th down at all. We could have kicked the field goal and tried to win the field position battle on the ensuing kick-off. Even if it didn't work, we would have played it very closely to the end. We would have been within 4 points!

Texans Horror
11-09-2005, 03:23 PM
They should have gone for the field goal cause that would have made it a better loss, and we wouldn't have had a four-day argument about the sidelines. I think Walker and Carr have probably settled their differences about it by now and are sipping pina coladas and are singing Karaoke, but we're still arguing it...

Double Barrel
11-09-2005, 03:24 PM
Well, I'm feeling left out...11 pages long already without my take! :heh:

Good pass, WR screwed up. Simple as that, happens every week in the NFL. If Bradford is good enough to be on an NFL team and is good enough for coaches to play him, then I don't blame the QB for throwing to him when he's open. idonno:

Now, the term "good enough" could be subject to review, but you'll have to ask Coach Capers & Co. about that particular decision, not DC.

nflnutswife
11-09-2005, 03:27 PM
Well, I'm feeling left out...11 pages long already without my take! :heh:

Good pass, WR screwed up. Simple as that, happens every week in the NFL. If Bradford is good enough to be on an NFL team and is good enough for coaches to play him, then I don't blame the QB for throwing to him when he's open. idonno:

Now, the term "good enough" could be subject to review, but you'll have to ask Coach Capers & Co. about that particular decision, not DC.

See DB, 11 pages long and you bumped the 12th!
! I just think it's funny that who ever is to BLAME, everyone here has just a little different way of changing the same concept!

El Tejano
11-09-2005, 03:40 PM
It's not like a FG would have tied the game, we needed a TD. Going for the win was the right call.

Amen to that!!!

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 04:00 PM
IMO Carr made an athletic play, but the wrong decision under those circumstances. That has characterized his career to date. There really isn't anything you can say that would sway my opinion on that. Again, if it were any other down than 4th, I would have a different opinion on the play.

Thanks for addressing the 90% number at the end or the post instead of the meat of the post--90% by the wa is clearly in the range of reason for a BAD NFL WR--put the ball in their hands, even bad NFL WR's catch it in the 90% range. Great ones are 3-5% droppers. Bad NFL WR's are 8-12% droppers.

How about addressing the whole point that the decision wasn't do I throw to Bradford or AJ?--that simply wasn't the QB choice, the choice was do I keep looking at AJ or go to my 2nd read.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 04:04 PM
The Carr bashers, as I suppose I am lumped into, see things that give us hesitation to annoint him as the future QB with the prospective price tag that is afforded mid range to top tier QB's.

Money is by far my biggest concern and Carr certainly has not played to his contract so far or to the amount he will be paid for the option. The question is what are the alternatives. I personally don't like the idea of using a top 5 pick on Leinert or any other QB likely to be out this year so that leaves a yeoman FA. I can certainly see the argument that the Texans would be better off with Kitna at $2 mil per year than Carr at $8 mil. But, there is no need for the slanted, interpret everything against Carr attitude of some around here.

There have been two plays late in the game against the Browns and Jags that warrant questions about his decision making - the running out of bounds vs the Browns and this pass against the Jags. ... Only the 50+ people in the locker room, staff and front office really know what is going on.

True only the staff and team really knows. For example, many folks around here did criticize Carr for running out of bounds at 3:03 on 2nd & 5 in the Cleveland game, but here is something to consider--the basic game plan there was developed by the coaching staff. They called a passing play which might have had a completion, but wouldn't have eaten much clock or an incompletion which wouldn't eat much and would stop the clock. What Carr did was effectively the same as an incompletion since he ran out at the LOS--it may have gone down as a sack, but that stat alone is meaningless as a difference in the game. The staff could have, as they oh so many other times have, called a running play which would have kept the clock running. Instead they called a passing play then, and then went back and called a passing play again on 3rd & 5. It is fair to critique Carr for not sliding in bounds, but if you do, you should also be on the coaches for not running the ball--something we didn't hear from a single person.

mean mark8
11-09-2005, 05:47 PM
The official word on the argument is that it was about not throwing to AJ. Here is a link to an article by John McClain about it. Don't know if it's already been posted, if so, sorry about the duplication.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216

Double Barrel
11-09-2005, 06:30 PM
Alright, after reading that article, I'd have to say that Pendry should have been in Bradford's grill for dropping the pass. Would Pendry have chastised DC if he had thrown an incomplete to AJ while Bradford was open?

You've got to trust your QB's field judgement. The throw was there, the catch was not.

Walker should have been in his defensive teammates' faces for allowing 21 points. Can you imagine Carr getting in a Texans defender's face after blowing a big play?

They should ALL be in Pendry's face for the pathetic protection (or lack thereof) given to our QB.

This is a sign of a lost franchise. We've seen it before on other Houston teams.

Vinny
11-09-2005, 09:03 PM
The official word on the argument is that it was about not throwing to AJ. Here is a link to an article by John McClain about it. Don't know if it's already been posted, if so, sorry about the duplication.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3448216
That's what I thought early on...but everyone jumped me. Go figure.

Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.

Advice from veteran

Carr responded to Pendry by explaining that he threw to Bradford because Bradford had one-on-one coverage with cornerback Kenny Wright and added something like, "Did you see that pass?"

Walker heard Carr fire back at Pendry and questioned the quarterback's ability to accept coaching. Then Carr got into it with Walker, and they had to be separated.

infantrycak
11-09-2005, 11:16 PM
I am sorry, but really aside from any Carr debate is this the most pathetic purported quotation ever:

Bradford, who dropped Carr's long fourth-down pass that turned out to be the Texans' last play, told 790 AM that offensive coordinator Joe Pendry had chastised the quarterback for not throwing over the middle to Andre Johnson, who was open.

So Bradford is defending himself by saying "Pendry knew you shouldn't pass to me"--whatever, pathetic @#$#@. Waive Bradford yesterday, send Dunta out on 4 WR sets if necessary.

Ibar_Harry
11-09-2005, 11:47 PM
Alright, after reading that article, I'd have to say that Pendry should have been in Bradford's grill for dropping the pass. Would Pendry have chastised DC if he had thrown an incomplete to AJ while Bradford was open?

You've got to trust your QB's field judgement. The throw was there, the catch was not.

Walker should have been in his defensive teammates' faces for allowing 21 points. Can you imagine Carr getting in a Texans defender's face after blowing a big play?

They should ALL be in Pendry's face for the pathetic protection (or lack thereof) given to our QB.

This is a sign of a lost franchise. We've seen it before on other Houston teams.

As I have said for oh so long, its a coaching problem and players, fans and owners are all suffering................................

wrestler4life
11-09-2005, 11:49 PM
The first sign of someone who should not be on your team is the guy who blames someone else when it was his fault. Get rid of this jack-@#$

Fiddy
11-09-2005, 11:54 PM
I dont think Bradford was assigning blame, he just told everyone what the arguement was about. He never said "Carr should have thrown it to AJ and not me." He said that Pendry was on Carr's case and Carr said something that Walker didnt take nicely.

Bradford wasnt blaming Carr..

ledzeppelin229
11-09-2005, 11:59 PM
Was Bradford trying to push off blame or just explaining what Carr/Walker were arguing about?

Edit - Haha, that's what I get for letting my message sit while I talk on aim. Damn you Fiddy

Ibar_Harry
11-09-2005, 11:59 PM
On 2nd thought I think I'm going to be even more blunt based on what it is being said. Carr finally had some you know what, saw an opening, put the ball in the receiver's hands for what should have been a TD. Vinny and others have long critized him for not having vision. I suspect he had great vision on this play and did what a good QB should do. BUT REMEMBER IT WASN'T THE OC's PLAN. REMEMBER YOU DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TOLD AND DON'T DEVIATE OR YOU WILL GET THE AXE. What a bunch of loosers these coaches are. Its pure and simple. Manning would have been in BRADFORD's face and the OC's face would be cherry red if that statement was made to Manning. I'm beginning to think Carr has been in a heck of a position and he has always been a company man. That's the way he has always been. I think he tried to make Palmer's system work, but it just couldn't happen because of Capers and his staff. Remember, the O-line was Pendrys in part. I bet he dominated and it was really his and he should have the blame. Hmm, wasn't it Pendry who wanted to run the ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME. Bet the real problem is he really doesn't know how to run it...............

Malloy
11-10-2005, 04:08 AM
I dont think Bradford was assigning blame, he just told everyone what the arguement was about. He never said "Carr should have thrown it to AJ and not me." He said that Pendry was on Carr's case and Carr said something that Walker didnt take nicely.

Bradford wasnt blaming Carr..

Not only did he not blame Carr, he blamed himself. Although I'm not too hipped on Bradford he did have the guts to accept responsibility for that incomplete pass. Then again, no game is ever decided on one play only so... :)

GP
11-10-2005, 11:20 PM
The coaching staff's iron-fisted policy is to blame.

They act as if the players are on a TV screen, and the coaches hold PlayStation controllers....dictating every call, every decision, down to the very idea of who should get the ball as a play develops.

If Pendry indeed chastised Carr for going to Bradford rather than AJ...then it only proves this notion all the more.

I couldn't figure out what was wrong with Carr this year, but now I know: He's the victim of a schizophrenic, paranoid, control-freak coaching staff that treats the players like a bunch of junior high first-timers who can't lace up their cleats without a coach's assistance.

Can any one of us blame the players for not having any fire in their bellies after 3 1/2 years of being treated like this? Day in and day out, you get spoken to like children, and on game day you're afraid to try and make plays when you get the opportunity because you might make a decision that goes against the way you "think" the coach would react?

Amateur hour in coachville. :cool:

Beautiful pass. Dropped ball. Almost no time on the clock. You get the idea that for Capers and Pendry, taking baby steps is the only way to win.

Get those guys into retirement so they can baby their great grandchildren.

I always said in my Carr hating posts (earlier this season) that I am very confused about whether Carr is a bust or if it was something else...always going back and forth in my head as to what's really going on. Well, I've made up MY mind for good: This coaching staff has squandered Carr, and probably even more talent (Babin?) due to their inability to coach today's NFL talent. Might have worked 20 years ago, but Capers and Pendry are as old as last week's meatloaf.

I feel sorry for all the players on our team. They deserve better than this. Even Phyllis Buchanon, which says a lot right now.

touttail
11-11-2005, 07:28 AM
I have heard such rumors too but I have to believe the Saints would be most likely to get moved permanently since New Orleans was already an unprofitable city and the team can't even play there for at least another year.

At the Super Dome, every other seat is a different color so it looks from a distance that it's not empty, not like if they all were the same color.

bobby 119C

Runner
11-11-2005, 08:20 AM
Mark Breuner on 93.7 today stated that he was very happy to see Carr make that throw to Bradford - going for the win, confidence, great chance to score, etc.

I tried to call in and ask him if he knew it was 4th down, but they wouldn't take my call.

Dubya
11-11-2005, 08:38 AM
I tried to call in and ask him if he knew it was 4th down, but they wouldn't take my call.

Ha ha ha, they knew better than to do that, they knew what you were going to ask and they didn't want you to embarass Bruener.

I say, there's nothing like a loss to the Jags to get things stirred up, is there?

Lucky
11-12-2005, 10:39 AM
Here's a piece from Richard Justice's article on Carr's dad getting booted out of practices (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3456107), that indicates the Pendry/Carr argument was about the play previous to the Bradford drop on 4th down.
Rodger surely would admit that Pendry has been good for David. He's tough and demanding. When David screws up, he hears about it. He wouldn't think of asking Pendry to tone it down.

Pendry got in David's face after he took a sack on the final drive of Sunday's loss to Jacksonville. Pendry was fuming about it three days later.

"We're taking too many," he said. "I'm not pinning it on one guy. There's just no excuse for it."
So who's accurate about what the argument was about. Justice (via Pendry) or McClain (via Bradford through 790 am)? Was Bradford even around when Pendry & Carr were going at it? Makes a lot more sense to me that Pendry would be more upset over the sack on 3rd down than trying to hit a pass that would put the Texans in position to tie the game. Either way, it's just another example of the Chronic's inability to get their facts straight on a story.

Vinny
11-12-2005, 10:45 AM
Here's a piece from Richard Justice's article on Carr's dad getting booted out of practices (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3456107), that indicates the Pendry/Carr argument was about the play previous to the Bradford drop on 4th down.

So who's accurate about what the argument was about. Justice (via Pendry) or McClain (via Bradford through 790 am)? Was Bradford even around when Pendry & Carr were going at it? Makes a lot more sense to me that Pendry would be more upset over the sack on 3rd down than trying to hit a pass that would put the Texans in position to tie the game. Either way, it's just another example of the Chronic's inability to get their facts straight on a story.Did it ever occur to you that they could have touched on multiple topics?

Lucky
11-12-2005, 10:49 AM
Did it ever occur to you that they could have touched on multiple topics?
Was it ever reported that way?

Vinny
11-12-2005, 10:51 AM
just looked like he lightly touched on it and it wasn't the main focus of his piece...it hasn't been a big deal except on message boards.

Lucky
11-12-2005, 10:57 AM
just looked like he lightly touched on it and it wasn't the main focus of his piece...it hasn't been a big deal except on message boards.
Justice got a quote out of Pendry. Either Pendry was being misleading or that was what the argument was about. Looks pretty cut & dried, too me.

Vinny
11-12-2005, 11:00 AM
Justice got a quote out of Pendry. Either Pendry was being misleading or that was what the argument was about. Looks pretty cut & dried, too me.Here is the quote...it sure doesn't look like they break down the argument to me. They just touch on Carr getting lit up for poor play.

Pendry got in David's face after he took a sack on the final drive of Sunday's loss to Jacksonville. Pendry was fuming about it three days later.

"We're taking too many," he said. "I'm not pinning it on one guy. There's just no excuse for it."

Lucky
11-12-2005, 11:14 AM
The argument is referenced in "Pendry got into Carr's face after he took a sack on the team's final drive...".

I realize the Chronic can be difficult to read at times, but I think I got that right. Unless Justice has deliberatly taken Pendry's quote out of context, Pendry is saying the argument on the sidelines was over the 3rd down sack.

Vinny
11-12-2005, 11:19 AM
I don't even care about the content of the Carr - Pendry argument really...but I'm not going to make broad assumptions based on loose information. I'm just glad someone is jumping Carr for making mistakes now. The whole point of that piece was that some feel Carr was being handled with Kid gloves. His play has no doubt gotten better since they stopped coddling him.

disaacks3
11-12-2005, 11:30 AM
I don't even care about the content of the Carr - Pendry argument really...but I'm not going to make broad assumptions based on loose information. I'm just glad someone is jumping Carr for making mistakes now. The whole point of that piece was that some feel Carr was being handled with Kid gloves. His play has no doubt gotten better since they stopped coddling him. It is still interesting to note that what came out of Bradford's mouth (after his foot) and what Pendry told Justice don't seem to mesh too well.

That said, I agree with Vin...ANYTHING that'll help Carr's decision-making and progress as an NFL QB is nothing to sneeze at! :texflag:

Lucky
11-12-2005, 11:34 AM
There have been a lot of broad assumptions made in this thread, like the Texans coaches wanted Carr to go to AJ rather than Bradford on that 4th down pass. I've never seen a quote from a Texans' coach indicating that was accurate. But I have now seen a quote that points out that they were upset over the sack on the prior play. Which assumption is larger? The one with a Texan coach quoted or the one without? And this thread about this very argument is 200+ posts long, so some people care (or did). I thought sharing some info to get to the bottom of the story might be helpful.

Should Pendry get in Carr's face to make a point? Sure, Carr needs coaching like any other player. I don't think it would help guys like Wand or Bradford become better players, but I believe coaches need to know whose buttons can be pushed and whose can't.

Vinny
11-12-2005, 11:35 AM
There have been a lot of broad assumptions made in this thread... so, you will just add more then huh? I made some comments early and as facts came out I just sat and watched. I'm not fueling this goofy stuf...but feel free...by all means.

Lucky
11-12-2005, 11:42 AM
so, you will just add more then huh?
Maybe you can help me out and show where I have made a broad assumption?

ArlingtonTexan
11-12-2005, 11:53 AM
Way too much on an argument or disagreement. Some of you guys make like voices never get raised or disagreement expressed on your jobs.

Honoring Earl 34
11-12-2005, 12:26 PM
:slap: It does'nt matter about what they argued about or that they booted Carr's Daddy ( not Peyton ) . These are symptoms of a train off its tracks . I think both should have been done on day 1 .
I drop in once in awhile and watch my son's practice in High School . Why its his business if he's got a problem he''ll tell me .
You ever have that guy that when you stop off with the fellows ... has to bring his wife . Over time they don't tell him that their stopping .

Honoring Earl 34
11-12-2005, 12:46 PM
:texflag: I don't remember anyone getting on Carr up until Pendry . Mike Ditka would have ripped his head off along time ago and benched him.

aj.
11-12-2005, 02:08 PM
Did not!

Did too!

Bleh...

Talk about a thread that has run its course...

Runner
11-12-2005, 02:30 PM
Talk about a thread that has run its course...

Has not:)

texan279
11-16-2005, 11:45 AM
HE WASN'T OPEN!!!

Well I don't have tape on it but from what I remember he was more open than Bradford was.