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View Full Version : Trade Ragone to the 49ers?


humbleone
11-02-2005, 08:27 AM
If San Francisco is desperate enough to sign Jesse Palmer, do you guys see anyway for us to package a deal around Ragone that might work for both teams?

I am thinking Ragone and a four, or worst case one of our two third round picks to get the San Francisco "2" which will probably be better value than the end of the first '06 round.

Just a little wishful thinking...

texan279
11-02-2005, 08:29 AM
Don't see it happening. I see Ragone as our 2nd team QB next season...

ArlingtonTexan
11-02-2005, 08:33 AM
Trade deadline has passed. Palmer maybe no more than a one or two week option. From my understand the injuries to Smith and Dorsey are not season ending type of things. also, Palmer was player with the Giants who the 49ers happen to play this week.

PapaL
11-02-2005, 08:34 AM
Considering the trade deadline has passed, no. They're just a little banged up at QB right now and signed Palmer as an emergency type guy.

ArlingtonTexan
11-02-2005, 08:38 AM
Don't see it happening. I see Ragone as our 2nd team QB next season...

I hope that the back-up to Carr next year is a veteran QB that will push Carr and that the team has no qualms putting in the game if Carr is not performing.

texan279
11-02-2005, 08:40 AM
I hope that the back-up to Carr next year is a veteran QB that will push Carr and that the team has no qualms putting in the game if Carr is not performing.

Years in the league wise Ragone will be a veteran, now experince wise, that is a different story unless we include the NFLE.

cuppacoffee
11-02-2005, 08:57 AM
If San Francisco is desperate enough to sign Jesse Palmer, do you guys see anyway for us to package a deal around Ragone that might work for both teams?

I am thinking Ragone and a four, or worst case one of our two third round picks to get the San Francisco "2" which will probably be better value than the end of the first '06 round.

Just a little wishful thinking...

I guess I am just stubborn. :brickwall
I know the competition is not the same, but with different coaches, different schemes and different playcalling, Ragone stood out in NFLE. I hold out hope that Ragone might yet reach his potential, which I believe has been strangled by this staff, much the same as Carrs. Coaching makes a lot of difference when the talent level is comparable, and we do have some unused talent on this team.
A developed Ragone might fetch multiple picks one day.
But I've been wrong before. ( once or twice :) )
JMHO though.

ArlingtonTexan
11-02-2005, 09:06 AM
Years in the league wise Ragone will be a veteran, now experince wise, that is a different story unless we include the NFLE.

NFLe is AA football. Most of the players in that league are 4th quarter preseason type guys. Better than nothing, but that is about it.

Ragone is not an experienced QB. He has started one or two games. He has had three season to push a journeyman in Tony Banks for the 2nd job and has yet to do so. Based on that and the fact that no one in the Texans has siad any different, I am lead to believe that Ragone is closer to out of the league than being a guy who could make a push for a starting job.

I want guy who has played in the NFL with some level of success, not a guy fan are hoping on.

MorKnolle
11-02-2005, 09:36 AM
For one, as some people have pointed out, the trade deadline has passed.

Even if it hadn't passed, I doubt the 49ers would trade for our third string QB who is used to a completely different system, and either way this is just a quick fix. Alex Smith should be back in a week or two as should Dorsey, and I'm not sure the 49ers view Ragone as being better than Pickett, at least to the extent that they would trade down in the draft to get him.

As for Ragone's status here, people were hyped after he won NFL-E MVP, but yet he is still third on the depth chart. We have a veteran in Tony Banks that has experience (even won a Super Bowl with the Ravens) and has played (over 15,000 career passing yards) to "push" David Carr. Banks is a reasonably good QB, but the staff recognizes that putting him in the game for Carr, unless Carr gets hurt, will not help the team.

Hervoyel
11-02-2005, 09:38 AM
NFLe is AA football. Most of the players in that league are 4th quarter preseason type guys. Better than nothing, but that is about it.

Ragone is not an experienced QB. He has started one or two games. He has had three season to push a journeyman in Tony Banks for the 2nd job and has yet to do so. Based on that and the fact that no one in the Texans has siad any different, I am lead to believe that Ragone is closer to out of the league than being a guy who could make a push for a starting job.

I want guy who has played in the NFL with some level of success, not a guy fan are hoping on.


Don't read much into Ragone failing to push Tony Banks out of the way. I do not believe that moving past Tony was a serious possibility until this season and I very much doubt it's something the coaches want to see him do at this particular moment. Things have been bad enough this season as it is without a chorus of "PUT RAGONE IN" raining down from the stands. Tony Banks has been a solid backup for us but one thing he's never going to do is push your starter.

Going into next season Ragone will be the guy you're looking for who's going to push David Carr. Right now I don't think the coaches want any more pressure on him than is absolutely necessary. You (and I) may not agree with that but I think it's pretty clear that they've gone out of their way to not give DC any real competition.

Ragone has been here three years. In his rookie season who could possibly have expected him to push Tony Banks out of the way? The answer is nobody. In his second year he had the two terrible starts from 2003 hanging around his neck. Between his second and third years he went to NFLe and tore it up. Right now he's listed 3rd but if the team decides it "needs a spark" or "wants to see what he's capable of" then he'll jump over Tony Banks in a heartbeat. The explanation will be something like "We know what we have in Tony Banks. We need to learn what we have in Dave Ragone" or something like that.

He's the QB waiting in the wings right now. He's our Kelly Holcomb if you will (for good or ill). The coaches don't want him anywhere near the field because if he goes out there and has a good game then it's on. Players, sportswriters, and fans can all start taking sides the moment that happens.

Ragone is closer to causing a controversy here in Houston than being out of the league. That's exactly why he's 3rd on the depth chart. He's being kept far from the throne intentionally. Nobody is screaming for Tony Banks to come in and lead the team. To Dom Capers and Co. that's a good thing.

MorKnolle
11-02-2005, 09:51 AM
I disagree, if the Texans decided they needed to pull Carr and put another QB in they wouldn't even think about Ragone, right now it would be Banks.

ArlingtonTexan
11-02-2005, 10:07 AM
Don't read much into Ragone failing to push Tony Banks out of the way. I do not believe that moving past Tony was a serious possibility until this season and I very much doubt it's something the coaches want to see him do at this particular moment. Things have been bad enough this season as it is without a chorus of "PUT RAGONE IN" raining down from the stands. Tony Banks has been a solid backup for us but one thing he's never going to do is push your starter.

Going into next season Ragone will be the guy you're looking for who's going to push David Carr. Right now I don't think the coaches want any more pressure on him than is absolutely necessary. You (and I) may not agree with that but I think it's pretty clear that they've gone out of their way to not give DC any real competition.

Ragone has been here three years. In his rookie season who could possibly have expected him to push Tony Banks out of the way? The answer is nobody. In his second year he had the two terrible starts from 2003 hanging around his neck. Between his second and third years he went to NFLe and tore it up. Right now he's listed 3rd but if the team decides it "needs a spark" or "wants to see what he's capable of" then he'll jump over Tony Banks in a heartbeat. The explanation will be something like "We know what we have in Tony Banks. We need to learn what we have in Dave Ragone" or something like that.

He's the QB waiting in the wings right now. He's our Kelly Holcomb if you will (for good or ill). The coaches don't want him anywhere near the field because if he goes out there and has a good game then it's on. Players, sportswriters, and fans can all start taking sides the moment that happens.

Ragone is closer to causing a controversy here in Houston than being out of the league. That's exactly why he's 3rd on the depth chart. He's being kept far from the throne intentionally. Nobody is screaming for Tony Banks to come in and lead the team. To Dom Capers and Co. that's a good thing.

Unless you have information from inside the Texans, this comes off as hopeful speculation. There are plenty at least 5 or 6 QBs with similair (if not worse) draft position and experience as Ragone and are the clear number #2 on their teams. Ragone is the number #3 because is the third best QB on that team (or at least I hope so). Under your situation, the Texans are playing games with their players. This would make me disrespect the Texans more, not less if this is even close to true. If the Texans organization is protecting Carr from competition, then they are getting exactly what they deserve.

Hervoyel
11-02-2005, 11:38 AM
Unless you have information from inside the Texans, this comes off as hopeful speculation. There are plenty at least 5 or 6 QBs with similair (if not worse) draft position and experience as Ragone and are the clear number #2 on their teams. Ragone is the number #3 because is the third best QB on that team (or at least I hope so). Under your situation, the Texans are playing games with their players. This would make me disrespect the Texans more, not less if this is even close to true. If the Texans organization is protecting Carr from competition, then they are getting exactly what they deserve.


I have no inside information so yes, this is speculation. You yourself point out a number of reasons why I would not call it "hopeful" speculation though. It's just speculation.

Of those 5-6 QB's who are #2 on their teams I wonder how many are sitting in front of guys like Tony Banks? Just curious about that. I'll have to go look some of them up and see how many are #2 in front of young projects and how many are #2 in front of veteran quarterbacks who have started for teams.

Nevertheless I believe I'm right on this and that Ragone is not the 3rd best QB on the team. I think he's very likely the 2nd best QB on the team (but clearly 3rd in game experience) and that the Texans are giving the nod to Tony Banks primarily based on his experience but also with the consideration that Ragone could become a fan rallying point if he got in a game and appeared to perform better than David Carr.

Just curious but what do you base the idea that the Texans are not playing games with their players on? Carr didn't even have to beat out Tony Banks in training camp to win the starting spot when he arrived here so there's an example of protecting him from competition going all the way back to 2002.

The Texans have a history of "playing games" with their players IMO. Most teams do to some degree or another so I'm not crucifying them for it.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 11:48 AM
Carr didn't even have to beat out Tony Banks in training camp to win the starting spot when he arrived here so there's an example of protecting him from competition going all the way back to 2002.

Is this really true? Carr may have gotten the snaps with the 1st unit, but don't you think the coaches were watching the performances? I have never sat through a training camp date I walked away from thinking Banks looked better than Carr--as a matter the last two training camps IMO Banks has looked bad--very inaccurate. Of course this cuts down the middle of your conversation with AT, because it certainly doesn't explain why Banks is #2 on the depth chart.

Hervoyel
11-02-2005, 12:04 PM
Is this really true? Carr may have gotten the snaps with the 1st unit, but don't you think the coaches were watching the performances? I have never sat through a training camp date I walked away from thinking Banks looked better than Carr--as a matter the last two training camps IMO Banks has looked bad--very inaccurate. Of course this cuts down the middle of your conversation with AT, because it certainly doesn't explain why Banks is #2 on the depth chart.


Well, if you go with AT's case then Banks is #2 on the depth chart because Ragone is not as good as Tony Banks. If you feel like my case has merit then Banks is #2 because he's got more experience than Ragone and the Texans have no interest in adding a QB controversy to their already fun filled 2005 season.

Think about this. If Ragone can't beat out Banks and Banks is as bad as he seems at times then why in the world is Dave Ragone still on this team? For that matter why is Tony Banks still on this team?

Something is up here I think. That being of course simply my opinion. I am starting to see the odd "Put Ragone in" post here and there. If we find ourselves 1-10 at some point then I wonder how that will all play out.

Also I have a question. Have you ever sat through a training camp session and come away thinking that Dave Ragone was better than Tony Banks? I know it's happened to me on several evenings. Granted we're just fans but what do the coaches see that we don't on those nights at the practice facility?

Nighthawk
11-02-2005, 12:11 PM
NFLe is AA football. Most of the players in that league are 4th quarter preseason type guys. Better than nothing, but that is about it.

Ragone is not an experienced QB. He has started one or two games. He has had three season to push a journeyman in Tony Banks for the 2nd job and has yet to do so. Based on that and the fact that no one in the Texans has siad any different, I am lead to believe that Ragone is closer to out of the league than being a guy who could make a push for a starting job.

I want guy who has played in the NFL with some level of success, not a guy fan are hoping on.

The problem with this assessment is that the people making the decisions (Capers and Co) have by now been totally discredited and therefore the judgment itself must be discredited. In addition, because of its huge investment in him, management is so single-mindedly devoted to DC that Ragone will never get a chance here.

Best thing we could do for him is cut him loose. We can easily pick up another 2nd QB if that's all we need.

PapaL
11-02-2005, 12:14 PM
Before everyone starts jumping on the Ragone bandwagon remember he was the MVP of NFL-EUROPE. You dont exactly send your best there.
Some will argue that NFL-E is just above or equal to college ball, well its not the NFL. Its like sending an 8th grade kid back to 3rd grade, of course he;s going to have success.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 12:15 PM
Well, if you go with AT's case then Banks is #2 on the depth chart because Ragone is not as good as Tony Banks. If you feel like my case has merit then Banks is #2 because he's got more experience than Ragone and the Texans have no interest in adding a QB controversy to their already fun filled 2005 season.

I'll give my suggestion for scenario #3. Capers and Pendry are just such sticks in the mud about some personnel changes they will stick with experience inside a youth sandwich until they don't have an option. JMO, but they view a starting QB going down as an emergency situation which calls for the turtle to just peak out of its shell and try to sneak down the field. They figure Banks has more experience sneaking. Same kind of reasoning or lack thereof that keeps trotting Bradford on the team, not that they don't want an AJ vs. Gaffney controversy.

Also I have a question. Have you ever sat through a training camp session and come away thinking that Dave Ragone was better than Tony Banks? I know it's happened to me on several evenings. Granted we're just fans but what do the coaches see that we don't on those nights at the practice facility?

Yes I have, although I would also say not so much that other nights Banks has looked better but Ragone has had inconsistant nights as well where he didn't look clearly better. Based on my naive fan observations the past two years I would have Ragone at #2 but for considerations of experience. Of course getting Ragone experience and watching him in real games would have motivated me to put him in the game at the end of games like Denver, Indy #1 and the Jets game last year or several of the games this year.

Runner
11-02-2005, 12:16 PM
Under your situation, the Texans are playing games with their players. This would make me disrespect the Texans more, not less if this is even close to true.

It wouldn't be the first time*.


*Exhibit A: Seth Wand/Victor Riley training camp "competition" for starting left tackle spot. However you don't have to disrespect the whole organization, just Coach Pendry in this case.

Nevertheless I believe I'm right on this and that Ragone is not the 3rd best QB on the team. I think he's very likely the 2nd best QB on the team (but clearly 3rd in game experience) and that the Texans are giving the nod to Tony Banks primarily based on his experience but also with the consideration that Ragone could become a fan rallying point if he got in a game and appeared to perform better than David Carr.


I think having the more experienced Banks slotted ahead of the less experienced but possibly more talented Ragone would also fit in better with this coaching staff's conservative, keep it close philosophy.

Nighthawk
11-02-2005, 12:18 PM
If the Texans organization is protecting Carr from competition, then they are getting exactly what they deserve.

What are you, blind? I don't want controversy, but really, the Texans have been babying Carr since day. He hasn't come CLOSE to living up to his billing even allowing for the terrible O-line. He may yet, I have no idea, but it's part of the Capers Way to keep the heat off the star QB. Any real club who have benched Carr a good while ago, for his own good if nothing else.

Runner
11-02-2005, 12:30 PM
Before everyone starts jumping on the Ragone bandwagon remember he was the MVP of NFL-EUROPE. You dont exactly send your best there.
Some will argue that NFL-E is just above or equal to college ball, well its not the NFL. Its like sending an 8th grade kid back to 3rd grade, of course he;s going to have success.

My point in the "play Ragone" debates is that Ragone has excelled at every level at which he's played significant time - I'd like to see him get a chance to excel in the NFL with and against first teamers. He's done nothing to show that he wouldn't excel there too.

The main problem is that a team would have to be committed to giving him that chance. It may take him 3-4 games to get comfortable and in sync, and the team and fans would have to be willing to see some regression at first.

Texans Horror
11-02-2005, 12:40 PM
Compounded with the fact that people, especially general managers and coaches, have to see him play. His best chance is to be traded to a team that will not be taking a Leinart/Quinn/Young this year, but needs a new QB. As much as I like Ragone, I think he will have a carreer as a backup QB. There are several teams out there that aren't just in need of a QB, they need some depth behind the QB. (Of course, as stated in previous posts, Banks may be a better bet in those cases.)

ArlingtonTexan
11-02-2005, 12:46 PM
Think about this. If Ragone can't beat out Banks and Banks is as bad as he seems at times then why in the world is Dave Ragone still on this team? For that matter why is Tony Banks still on this team?



You are actually getting my point. Everyone has seen Banks' act before. OK if he only has to close out games or make one maybe two starts then he is fine. Anything more than that and we get reminded as to why he is not a starter in this league.

IMO, if Ragone can't beat out a journeyman like Banks, then he is not very good and probably is not going to push for a starting job anytime soon. Remember this summer between TT ex, Parsons, the "bachelor" and the NFLe MVP QB previous to Ragone, the Texans had all kinds of QBs running thorugh here.

Honestly, I don't really want to see either one them here next year. Those two have had three years. Give me somebody who is going to have Carr looking over his shoulder. No matter, the why (OL, scheme,talent around him) , QBs with Carr's winning percentage and stats should not have 60 starts (end of the year if he is healthy) without some QB controversy surrounding him.

humbleone
11-02-2005, 02:02 PM
My point in the "play Ragone" debates is that Ragone has excelled at every level at which he's played significant time - I'd like to see him get a chance to excel in the NFL with and against first teamers. He's done nothing to show that he wouldn't excel there too.

The main problem is that a team would have to be committed to giving him that chance. It may take him 3-4 games to get comfortable and in sync, and the team and fans would have to be willing to see some regression at first.

I agree and while this post will probably get me clubed like a baby seal by some, IMO it would be a very interesting/smart move to let DC have only the next 3 games and then his '05 year is over. Why? This would give us the chance to see Ragone for the last 6 (and not because I think he is better than Carr btw) but because those games are with the Rams, Ravens, Titans, Arizona, Jacksonville and the 49ers.

If Ragone could win 2-3 (i.e. Arizona/49ers) of those as our starter, wouldn't that mean his trade value around the '06 draft could be worth something? If not, we have at least kept Carr from getting pounded further, given him a chance to rest vs. regress further until the new coaching staff can come in and finally settle the issue between Ragone and Banks going into next year.

Texas
11-02-2005, 02:10 PM
I hope that the back-up to Carr next year is a veteran QB that will push Carr and that the team has no qualms putting in the game if Carr is not performing.


I agree with that 100%

jjjezebel
11-02-2005, 08:05 PM
My point in the "play Ragone" debates is that Ragone has excelled at every level at which he's played significant time - I'd like to see him get a chance to excel in the NFL with and against first teamers. He's done nothing to show that he wouldn't excel there too.

The main problem is that a team would have to be committed to giving him that chance. It may take him 3-4 games to get comfortable and in sync, and the team and fans would have to be willing to see some regression at first.
Amen. I for one would love to see what Ragone could do. People say "NFLE is a joke" and "Ragone is too slow", but judging by what Carr is doing this year, Ragone looks like he'd be any improvement to the team.

PapaL
11-02-2005, 08:56 PM
I'm all for seeing what Ragone has to offer, but think of this; how much do the Texans really care about him? I mean the guy has been on our roster 3 years now, and his picture still isnt avaliable on his player bio: #15 Dave Ragone (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster_detail.php?PRKey=58)