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Texans Horror
11-01-2005, 01:33 PM
I'm quoting Don Banks from SI. He's talking about the Texans win:

"The Texans aren't special. They have no shot to make history. They're just another bad, one-win team."

The link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/don_banks/11/01/banks.shots/2.html

Up for debate: Are we really just another bad, one-win team? I would like to think that if we sucked, we were historically sucky. To put it another way, is there anything to distinguish us from the other loser teams in the NFL?

alphajoker
11-01-2005, 01:36 PM
At least we're the only loser team that has a retractable stadium....that seperates us.

Texans Horror
11-01-2005, 01:43 PM
I was thinking about this, and I decided I should probably quantify "loser team." First of all, there are only two one-win teams, us and the Packers. That would be too easy, because the difference between the Texans and the Packers is that we have a QB. :) (You can substitute "they" for "we" if that makes you feel better.) So here are the current loser teams of the NFL (two or less wins):

Texans
Packers
Ain'ts
Vikes
Niners
Dawgs
Ravens
Jets

texan279
11-01-2005, 01:51 PM
I'm quoting Don Banks from SI. He's talking about the Texans win:

"The Texans aren't special. They have no shot to make history. They're just another bad, one-win team."

The link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/don_banks/11/01/banks.shots/2.html

Up for debate: Are we really just another bad, one-win team? I would like to think that if we sucked, we were historically sucky. To put it another way, is there anything to distinguish us from the other loser teams in the NFL?

We are honestly probably a bad 2-3 win team at the end of the season.

rmartin65
11-01-2005, 02:17 PM
We could win more than one game. We still play the Titans, 49ers, Cards and Ravens. Granted, the Ravens and 49ers just had good games.

Double Barrel
11-01-2005, 04:33 PM
I'm not sure if I want our team to be a part of this particular 'history'.

It's almost like arguing which smells worse - dog poo or cat poo. Does the subject really make itself worthy of a discussion? idonno:

It must be a slow news day for Mr. Don Banks. Find something more interesting to write about, man.

El Tejano
11-01-2005, 05:50 PM
Well I don't think we are a bad TEAM. We got the talent, it is just that talent hasn't been coached to it's potential. I don't think you call this a bad team until you see them do horrible consistently with different coaches like Cardinals, Bengals, Lions etc...

TEXANRED
11-01-2005, 06:09 PM
I just hope that this bad team isnt good enough to win enough games to where we wind up drafting in the middle of the pack. Lord help us if we win enough to secure Dom's job for one more year.

El Tejano
11-01-2005, 06:14 PM
The way I see that is you can't lose. If you draft #1 you get the best player in the draft and go for your lineman in FA. If you draft middle of the pack you get the best OL in the draft and go for your playmaker in FA.

alphajoker
11-01-2005, 06:26 PM
Well I don't think we are a bad TEAM. We got the talent, it is just that talent hasn't been coached to it's potential. I don't think you call this a bad team until you see them do horrible consistently with different coaches like Cardinals, Bengals, Lions etc...

1-6 is still a bad TEAM, however, I agree that this is a talented team
and with some upgrades in the off-season, players and coaches, we can be competitive next year.:texflag:

real
11-01-2005, 06:35 PM
....we arent just loaded with talent, in fact there arent too many positions on the team that couldnt use an upgrade

WWJD
11-01-2005, 10:12 PM
You know what's really bad, in retrospect, many here thought the Texans were a playoff contending team this year.

Instead it's been a diaster. I expected more myself and never thought they'd only have 1 win so far.

Ibar_Harry
11-01-2005, 11:49 PM
Yes, and those who said it was going to be bad were given a lot of grief. The one player I said would make a big impact was Mathis and he has. This team has talent, but the coaches make us look oh so bad. Its a shame its that way. I will still say the best O-line combination is Wand, Wiegert, Hodgdon, Pitts and Wade. You will never see it, but I believe that to be the case. I also think we should have kept Kasper and Armstrong should be getting a lot more playing time. The player who has surprised me was Gaffny. I thought his injuries and loss of playing time was going to hurt him more than it has. Actually AJ's injury is allowing Gaffny to play himself into shape and get the touches he needs. AJ is the one I'm still scratching my head over. He was suppose to have a calf injury and now they seem to be talking knee injury. Kind of a different tune. Actually AJ out of the line up is a blessing for the other receivers. They are getting opportunities and it should help us in the long run.

touttail
11-02-2005, 07:26 AM
I do agree that we are a bad team with a 4 year history, but my gosh what about the Packers with their history and the same record that we have, 1-6.

bobby 119C

Texans Horror
11-02-2005, 07:41 AM
You know what's really bad, in retrospect, many here thought the Texans were a playoff contending team this year.

Instead it's been a diaster. I expected more myself and never thought they'd only have 1 win so far.


I know it has happened before where a team was expected to return to the Superbowl and was just pathetic the next year, but how often does it happen that a potential play-off contender bites the bullet like we have?

Vinny
11-02-2005, 07:45 AM
I know it has happened before where a team was expected to return to the Superbowl and was just pathetic the next year, but how often does it happen that a potential play-off contender bites the bullet like we have?We were a borderline playoff contender and most people had us pegged for 8-8 or a win or so around that. It happens all the time in the NFL because every team is loaded and its really not that hard to string losses together in such a tough league. A few years ago San Diego came off an 8-8 season and went 4-12 the very next season (2002-2003) and they were arguably more talented than we are now.

alphajoker
11-02-2005, 08:05 AM
Yes, and those who said it was going to be bad were given a lot of grief. The one player I said would make a big impact was Mathis and he has. This team has talent, but the coaches make us look oh so bad. Its a shame its that way. I will still say the best O-line combination is Wand, Wiegert, Hodgdon, Pitts and Wade. You will never see it, but I believe that to be the case. I also think we should have kept Kasper and Armstrong should be getting a lot more playing time. The player who has surprised me was Gaffny. I thought his injuries and loss of playing time was going to hurt him more than it has. Actually AJ's injury is allowing Gaffny to play himself into shape and get the touches he needs. AJ is the one I'm still scratching my head over. He was suppose to have a calf injury and now they seem to be talking knee injury. Kind of a different tune. Actually AJ out of the line up is a blessing for the other receivers. They are getting opportunities and it should help us in the long run.

Yeah, that's true. It is also helping Carr as well, IMO. When AJ does return, his time away should have given Carr the confidence to use his #2 WR when AJ isn't open.

cuppacoffee
11-02-2005, 08:35 AM
Yes, and those who said it was going to be bad were given a lot of grief. The one player I said would make a big impact was Mathis and he has. This team has talent, but the coaches make us look oh so bad. Its a shame its that way. I will still say the best O-line combination is Wand, Wiegert, Hodgdon, Pitts and Wade. You will never see it, but I believe that to be the case. I also think we should have kept Kasper and Armstrong should be getting a lot more playing time. The player who has surprised me was Gaffny. I thought his injuries and loss of playing time was going to hurt him more than it has. Actually AJ's injury is allowing Gaffny to play himself into shape and get the touches he needs. AJ is the one I'm still scratching my head over. He was suppose to have a calf injury and now they seem to be talking knee injury. Kind of a different tune. Actually AJ out of the line up is a blessing for the other receivers. They are getting opportunities and it should help us in the long run.

The Texans management seems to have a problem with "straightforwardness" when it comes to injuries. :penalty:
Hasn't it been that way since year one?........ :fib

cac: :coffee:

Texans Horror
11-02-2005, 08:53 AM
Thanks, Vinny.

Here's something. The Texans, Saints, and Vikings are all loser teams this year that are imploding, and in all three cases, management or coaching is as much at fault as the players. To be more specific, I think that each team needs more leadership.

Now, the Niners are very different from the Texans because they are just starting their rebuilding phase, IMO. The Texans, however, should be at the end of the rebuilding phase.

The Ravens and Jets have had key injuries that are affecting the team. While the Texans have had some injuries, at this point I don't know if I would consider them "key." IMO, Babin and Weigert were not producing before their injuries. The biggest injury for the Texans is probably AJ, but something in the back of my head seems to think that he isn't as injured as we all think.

I remember watching the NFL show on HBO this past weekend, and they brought up an interesting comparison, though it was unintentional. Costas asked who the most underachieving player this year was. Chris Carter said David Carr. Dan Marino agreed about Carr, but said he thought Jamal Lewis was the most underachieving player. The similarity? Both are star players on the list of teams with less than three wins.

Vinny
11-02-2005, 09:02 AM
Thanks, Vinny.

Here's something. The Texans, Saints, and Vikings are all loser teams this year that are imploding, and in all three cases, management or coaching is as much at fault as the players. To be more specific, I think that each team needs more leadership. Well the good news is that San Diego team I mentioned earlier is now one of the best team in the NFL. I remember watching the NFL show on HBO this past weekend, and they brought up an interesting comparison, though it was unintentional. Costas asked who the most underachieving player this year was. Chris Carter said David Carr. Dan Marino agreed about Carr, but said he thought Jamal Lewis was the most underachieving player. The similarity? Both are star players on the list of teams with less than three wins.If your best players play poorly then you just won't have a good team for the most part. Since we have a salary cap the highest paid players need to be your best players since they tie up some of that money you could have used to pursue for other positions. David Carr is the first overall pick with 51 NFL starts under his belt and he struggles to pass for 140 yards against a bad Cleveland team. He is just going to catch heat until he lights it up. 2+2=4

Lucky
11-02-2005, 09:19 AM
...David Carr is the first overall pick with 51 NFL starts under his belt and he struggles to pass for 140 yards against a bad Cleveland team. He is just going to catch heat until he lights it up. 2+2=4
Vinny, you know that Carr only threw 20 passes for the game. He averaged about 7 yards per attempt, and that's about average for NFL QBs. That's not counting the multiple drops from his receivers. Carr's cast of receivers now (sans AJ) is certainly the worst group in the NFL. And while the line had their best game, some of that is because Joe Pendry has lessened the pressure on them by reducing the pass attempts and shortening the routes. Of all the games to point the finger at Carr this season, Sunday was not one of them. David performed about as well as could have been expected in the current state of this offense.

As far as the HBO "analysts" are concerned, they're no Dawson & Buoniconti.

Vinny
11-02-2005, 09:32 AM
I'm well aware of the excuses. As a strange coincidence, I happen to be a Texans fan and know about them. He was talking about how Carr is taking national heat from the press and the pundits. Taking away the homer excuses there is no doubt he will continue to take heat for average play. I doubt that is debatable.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 09:34 AM
David Carr is the first overall pick with 51 NFL starts under his belt and he struggles to pass for 140 yards against a bad Cleveland team. He is just going to catch heat until he lights it up. 2+2=4

Absolutely he is going to catch most of the heat until the O turns around because of the money -- some of it is entirely fair, some not. Let's just look at the struggle to pass for 140 yds and how easily the game of inches changes things. Just looking at 3 plays and not even considering OL play:

1) 1st Qtr 4:24--Rivers potential 10 yd reception goes thru his hands not only for an incompletion but for an INT. Arguably the ball could ideally (by that I mean under 6" difference and far within the throwing tolerance of every QB in the league) have been thrown better, but it was not a misthrown ball and should have been caught. Possession over.

2) 2nd Qtr 11:00--13 yd pass to Bradford on the numbers dropped. Possession over on downs.

3) 2nd Qtr :20--20 yd pass to Bradford in the endzone. AJ, Gaff or Armstrong make that catch 90% (Frankly, Mathis' defender got as much hand on the ball on his earlier TD). 3rd down play so TD goes to FG.

Without considering the fact that 2 of these 3 plays ended possessions and would have resulted in continued drives, etc. the game stats would change from:

20 attempts, 10 completions, 50% comp., 138 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT, 68.3 rating

to

20 attempts, 13 completions, 65% comp., 181 yds, 2 TD's, 0 INT, rating 127.3 (totally goofy formula to work out).

Wouldn't have been anything close to an elite QB day--although it would have been a very efficient QB day, but the perception would be far different.

Vinny, I would be interested to hear which plays from the Cleveland game you lay on Carr's shoulders as below average QB play. For example I expect some bad throws in every game from even the elite QB's, so when I am looking, I look for more than an acceptable bad throw amount or for truly horrendous throws--for an example each way, the 1st throw to Carr against Indy was horrendous on the other hand Dunta's INT of Manning wasn't so much to his credit as Manning throwing a bad ball (although he chewed out his WR afterwards, it looked like a bad throw IMO) but that is going to happen even to Manning.

Buffi2
11-02-2005, 09:42 AM
The biggest injury for the Texans is probably AJ, but something in the back of my head seems to think that he isn't as injured as we all think.

I was wondering if anyone else thought that. It is possible that AJ feels his best career move is an injury that keeps him off the field until he can extricate himself from this team.

Runner
11-02-2005, 09:48 AM
Without considering the fact that 2 of these 3 plays ended possessions and would have resulted in continued drives, etc. the game stats would change from:

20 attempts, 10 completions, 50% comp., 138 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT, 68.3 rating

to

20 attempts, 13 completions, 65% comp., 181 yds, 2 TD's, 0 INT, rating 127.3 (totally goofy formula to work out).



Interesting how a few "minor" changes - such as catch a ball that hits your hands - can make such a huge difference in statistical and on-field results. The QB rating skyrocketed in this example.

We had one in our favor at the end of the game when P-buc was able to make the play by inches.

Football is a close game - I guess this shows that if the players can just make a few plays they can get this thing turned around. A little.

Texans Horror
11-02-2005, 09:49 AM
I was wondering if anyone else thought that. It is possible that AJ feels his best career move is an injury that keeps him off the field until he can extricate himself from this team.

I prefer my conspiracy theories hold less water. Knowing that they can't get him open, the coaches have benched him in the hope that Gaffney, Mathis, and Bradford (WTH?) will mature as playmakers, so when AJ takes the field again, teams know they had better do more than double-cover AJ (and Carr will know to throw to other players.)

Buffi2
11-02-2005, 09:53 AM
I prefer my conspiracy theories hold less water. Knowing that they can't get him open, the coaches have benched him in the hope that Gaffney, Mathis, and Bradford (WTH?) will mature as playmakers, so when AJ takes the field again, teams know they had better do more than double-cover AJ (and Carr will know to throw to other players.)

That works for me. I just love a good conspiracy.:thumbup

Vinny
11-02-2005, 09:59 AM
Interesting how a few "minor" changes - such as catch a ball that hits your hands - can make such a huge difference in statistical and on-field results. The QB rating skyrocketed in this example.

We had one in our favor at the end of the game when P-buc was able to make the play by inches.

Football is a close game - I guess this shows that if the players can just make a few plays they can get this thing turned around. A little.That's why I don't think you can quantify football players with pure stats alone like you can in sports such as Baseball where you can tell who the best players are with era, batting average, and slugging percentages. There are too many intangibles on the football field and a trained eye is a better gauge. Not to say Infantrycak doesn’t have good basis though…stats are relevant, but not the end game when it comes to determining good football players.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 10:05 AM
Not to say Infantrycak doesn’t have good basis though…stats are relevant, but not the end game when it comes to determining good football players.

To be clear for everyone on my point above, it was not that Carr had a great day or any particular kind of day but that the perception of the QB varies hugely by the success of the team. What I was trying to show was what Vinny is saying about eyes on the play vs. the stats--Carr would have had exactly the same day and quality of play against the Browns if those 3 plays were made (the required difference on the plays for success was not Carr's but Rivers & Bradford) but the stats and perception of his play would in most peoples' minds be very different.

chuckm
11-02-2005, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure if I want our team to be a part of this particular 'history'.

It's almost like arguing which smells worse - dog poo or cat poo. Does the subject really make itself worthy of a discussion? idonno:

It must be a slow news day for Mr. Don Banks. Find something more interesting to write about, man.


dog poo .... hands down

Texans_Chick
11-02-2005, 10:41 AM
AJ is the one I'm still scratching my head over. He was suppose to have a calf injury and now they seem to be talking knee injury. Kind of a different tune. Actually AJ out of the line up is a blessing for the other receivers. They are getting opportunities and it should help us in the long run.


As I understand it, the part that is hurting him is the area behind the knee--so it is not a traditional front or side of the knee thing but more how it connects into the calf.

Two Mondays ago, he flew out of town to another opinion about it. I find it encouraging that after that, they are still evaluating him week to week whether he will play.

Last year, the team lost some games it should have won, and won some games it probably should have lost. You know, NFL football.

If you already have very little depth as a team already and a lot of young guys and new guys, and if a number of your best players get hurt, your team is going to have some trouble. As the guys get more used to each other and maybe players get back on the field etc, the only win out of the rest of the games that would really truly surprise me would be beating the Colts on the road, because that has been an ugly game in the past even under the best of circumstances.

Not saying the Texans are going to run the table or anything but I think they will get more competitive once folks are getting more used to each other.

Double Barrel
11-02-2005, 10:43 AM
LOL @ chuckm! :heh:

1) 1st Qtr 4:24--Rivers potential 10 yd reception goes thru his hands not only for an incompletion but for an INT. Arguably the ball could ideally (by that I mean under 6" difference and far within the throwing tolerance of every QB in the league) have been thrown better, but it was not a misthrown ball and should have been caught. Possession over.

We were talking about that at the game when it happened. Jungle Bob said it was the WRs fault for not catching it, but my opinion was that the ball was overthrown, forcing the WR to jump at an awkward angle.

I had just watched an NFL Films piece the night before about WRs going up the middle, and how the QBs job is to place the ball in position to avoid the dreaded rib-cage hit (ie. WR goes up, arms outstretched, and the defender has a clear shot at the WRs mid-section). ALL of the QBs, including Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Jim Kelly, John Elway, etc., said that it is the QBs responsibility is to protect the WR in the middle (NOT the other way around of blaming the WR for not catching the ball).

So maybe my perspective was a little skewed due to the NFL Films presentation (love those things!).

Either way, the ball was 'catchable', but DC still could have placed it better. (Not dogging Carr here, just making an observation)

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 11:27 AM
DB--I agree with you generally, but this wasn't a hanging your receiver out play. The defender was running with the TE and in front so if the catch is made he is just hoping to make the tackle not kill anyone. Once again, game film would probably help, but from my perspective at the game and then on the DVR IMO Carr had to do a little throwing around the defender, which is frankly something I want to see some more instead of walking off the field and saying no one is open. IMO those two weeks of statements from Carr about no open receivers were low points for him--good QB's make throws to non-open WR's by placing them where only the receiver can get to the ball. I suspect the coaches hammered him about turnovers last year after the Denver and Indy games, but I don't care, Carr needs to thumb his nose at that attitude and get the ball out and let the receivers make plays.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 11:49 AM
...Carr needs to thumb his nose at that attitude and get the ball out and let the receivers make plays.
Maybe with the next coaching staff, but I'm sure David was taken to task for that throw. To Dom Capers, a turnover is a turnover. He sees the game in black & white. You're thinking gray.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 11:58 AM
Maybe with the next coaching staff, but I'm sure David was taken to task for that throw. To Dom Capers, a turnover is a turnover. He sees the game in black & white. You're thinking gray.

Probably so, but what I am thinking is every time I watch one of the great QB's around the league one of the biggest parts of them making it happen, not holding the ball to long, having good reads, etc. is getting the ball out to WR's who are shoulder to shoulder with a DB, often two, by placing the ball where the WR has the only or the best chance to make the catch. If the Texans are instructing Carr not to do that or remonstrating him for doing so they are coaching him not to be a good NFL QB IMO. NFL players are simply too good to only throw to wide open receivers, especially if the passes have to be 10 yds or under.

Double Barrel
11-02-2005, 12:06 PM
DB--I agree with you generally, but this wasn't a hanging your receiver out play. The defender was running with the TE and in front so if the catch is made he is just hoping to make the tackle not kill anyone. Once again, game film would probably help, but from my perspective at the game and then on the DVR IMO Carr had to do a little throwing around the defender, which is frankly something I want to see some more instead of walking off the field and saying no one is open. IMO those two weeks of statements from Carr about no open receivers were low points for him--good QB's make throws to non-open WR's by placing them where only the receiver can get to the ball. I suspect the coaches hammered him about turnovers last year after the Denver and Indy games, but I don't care, Carr needs to thumb his nose at that attitude and get the ball out and let the receivers make plays.

Gotcha', man. We only got 1-2 replays on the big screen (and only from one angle), so it was tough for us to really analyze it.

I agree with your point about DC needing to place the ball in a position for the WRs to catch it, regardless if they are in man or zone coverages. This is definitely what separates the good and great QBs in the NFL. Part of that equation is having receivers that catch those balls, so it's not all his 'fault'. But it is still something that he and his coaches needs to have confidence that he can accomplish, because he's got the arm strength. The rest of it is mental.

Runner
11-02-2005, 12:07 PM
Once again, game film would probably help, but from my perspective at the game and then on the DVR IMO Carr had to do a little throwing around the defender, which is frankly something I want to see some more instead of walking off the field and saying no one is open. IMO those two weeks of statements from Carr about no open receivers were low points for him--good QB's make throws to non-open WR's by placing them where only the receiver can get to the ball. I suspect the coaches hammered him about turnovers last year after the Denver and Indy games, but I don't care, Carr needs to thumb his nose at that attitude and get the ball out and let the receivers make plays.

This started even before the Denver and Indy games. Much like Carr can't audible to a play of his choosing, he's never been "allowed" to throw into coverage on purpose. I thought that last year, after Dre made a couple of those spectacular catches, that he should (sometimes) be thrown the ball even when double covered. Give the big time players a chance to make big time plays - other teams do.

This is of course anathema to our conservative philosophy. We need some new coaches to bring out the best in our players.

Hardcore Texan
11-02-2005, 12:47 PM
You are right, and that is why the quaterback gets most of blame or most of the glory....it doesn't mean its fair, it is just how it is.

:texflag:

Texans Horror
11-02-2005, 12:53 PM
Dr. Z has vaulted us out of the bottom 30 of the NFL. Way to go Texans!! :yahoo: We are ranked 29th in the power rankings! (That's above Cleveland, Green Bay, and the Vikings.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/11/01/ranks.week9.part3/index.html

Also, here were some of the interesting comments I picked up from Doc Ock:

"Domanick Davis is on pace for his third straight 1000-yard season. Only 14 players in history have rushed for the G-note in their first three years in the league. "

"Cleveland players described Houston's victory over them as an "ugly win." I know someone who doesn't think so, the Texans' kick return ace, Jerome Mathis, who returned five of them for a 35.4 average."