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the wonger need food
10-30-2005, 03:23 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.

Lucky
10-30-2005, 03:31 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.
Have you considered the possibility that Carr isn't the guy who gameplans the checks on the line? That he's given the play to check into when he sees a certain defensive front? Dude's just following orders.

The Texans win and you can't back off for even a day?

GP
10-30-2005, 03:34 PM
The audible problem is the COACHES fault.

In an interview, Carr blew the whistle on Capers & Co. by saying that "..the only audible he's allowed to do is to switch a run play from one side to the other..."

So, it's the coaches fault on that one. Heck, if we all know about it...obviously the opponents' scouting teams know about it too. That's what so frustrating: Our coaching staff is a bunch of tards.

My wife thinks I'm psychic when I say, "Watch, this will be a running play..." And she's creeped out when it IS a running play every time I see Carr audibling. She asks me how I know it, and I told her that some posters here heard an interview with Carr, etc., etc., and she was laughing when I got finished telling her "If someone like me knows this, what else do you think the OPPONENTS know in addition to this one little obvious playcalling snafu?"

Carr is just 50-50. Bradford dropped a legitimate pass, but there was another time when the defender made a good play and wrestled the ball out of Bradford's hands. Then you have times when Carr ran out of bounds instead of staying in bounds to keep the clock running or to force Cleveland to call a timeout.

I used to be hard-core anti-Carr...but now I'm 50-50 on this guy. He'l make great passes and then he'll make bone-head decisions, such as running out of bounds or running into a sack when the line gave him great protection. The least he could do is just throw it at the feet of a downfield receiver.

And by the way, does our coaching team know about the fade stop route...where Gafney could have been told in the huddle, "Gaff, if you see the blitz coming to me, stop and come back 'cause I'm throwing it to the 10-yard line behind you."

We could victimize teams with the fade stop if we wanted to.

Overall, we played a team that's just like us. It's a win, and I'll take it (especially since we now will not be 0-16) but this coaching staff tried very hard to throw the game again.

ccdude730
10-30-2005, 03:35 PM
i cant see the receivers but for some reason i got the impression that his guys werent getting open that much. gaffney seemed to be getting open because he runs crisp routes and mathis can just outrun everyone. 1 sack was a great play by the defender. as for the audibles...im not gonna blame him for the coaching staff only letting him audible to 1 or 2 different plays

carr looked like he put pretty good touch on the ball on a few plays as well. i saw a glimpse of the minnesota game today.

now for a weird observation. ragone is a lefty but i see him write on the clipboard with his right hand. THAT is talent people. i can hardly put a spiral when i try to throw a football with my left hand.

BigBull17
10-30-2005, 03:40 PM
Some of the plays he got screwed on were great reads by the D and Carr did the smart thing and protected the ball. On the fake reverse debacle he was smart and just gave his team MVP Chad Stanley a chance to punt.

GP
10-30-2005, 03:42 PM
And though I am a big DD homer...

DD could have laid a chip block to stop Carr from getting sacked on the busted fake end around...but he let his guy go right to Carr. DD sometimes releases to the safety valve position too quickly instead of staying with Carr for blocking duties.

That one was on DD.

rmartin65
10-30-2005, 03:44 PM
DD is just not a blocking back.

Lucky
10-30-2005, 03:46 PM
That one was on DD.
No, the play is designed to go to Davis in the flat. See the DD touchdown reception vs. Pittsburgh and the catch & run TD at Seattle. The Browns MLB read it & made the play. Sometimes you just have to credit the opposition.

GP
10-30-2005, 03:50 PM
I thought that for a second, but the way I saw it...

DD's body language looked like he knew he wasn't going to get to the block so he tried to release and give Carr "an out" and it didn't work as DD planned.

I didn't think this particular play was designed to go to DD from the beginning.

But that's just me.

GP
10-30-2005, 03:52 PM
It looked like Carr wasn't even trying to find Davis the whole play, and I thought Carr was having receivers coming back across the field rolling with him. The angle the TV cameras gave us on TV didn't show the receivers in the screen: It was all Carr and DD on the TV, so I couldn't tell about the routes the receivers were running.

texasguy346
10-30-2005, 03:56 PM
The Browns MLB read it & made the play. Sometimes you just have to credit the opposition.

Andre Davis didn't bite at all on that play. The fake reverse didn't even cause him a second of hesitation. He zeroed in on Carr and the play was over in a hurry.

We were very lucky to make it out of this game with a win.

NoBullTexan
10-30-2005, 04:01 PM
Lest we all forget, Grantham was our DL coach up until this year. Do you think he can get inside Capers head a little bit? Now you know Capers knows this, and yet he gameplanned the same old stupid way he always does. Mr. predictable! And perish the thought of even trying to do some adjustments at halftime! Now you see how bad Cleveland must really be if we still beat 'em after all that!

utahmark
10-30-2005, 04:28 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.

he didnt look confused to me and he only got sacked twice.

vtech9
10-30-2005, 04:31 PM
honestly, it is hard to find an open WR, when you are staring down one guy. My brother and I were talking about this while watching the game. He said that he would love to be a DB playing against Carr. He said that you always know where Carr is going to throw it, so it makes covering the WR so much easier. I can actually say that I don't remember a single time that Carr checked down. He locked onto his 1st option until he either threw the ball or took off running.

tulexan
10-30-2005, 04:34 PM
when Bradford is your other option I would be locking on one receiver too.

rmartin65
10-30-2005, 04:38 PM
when Bradford is your other option I would be locking on one receiver too.
Got a point.

vtech9
10-30-2005, 04:42 PM
when Bradford is your other option I would be locking on one receiver too.
your argument doesn't hold water...Carr locked onto Bradford also. Every time Carr threw to Bradford, he was locked onto him the whole way.

tulexan
10-30-2005, 04:48 PM
ever hear of :sarcasm:

utahmark
10-30-2005, 05:07 PM
honestly, it is hard to find an open WR, when you are staring down one guy. My brother and I were talking about this while watching the game. He said that he would love to be a DB playing against Carr. He said that you always know where Carr is going to throw it, so it makes covering the WR so much easier. I can actually say that I don't remember a single time that Carr checked down. He locked onto his 1st option until he either threw the ball or took off running.

he does lock on to his reciever a little to much. but there were several times when he checked down today.

utahmark
10-30-2005, 05:09 PM
your argument doesn't hold water...Carr locked onto Bradford also. Every time Carr threw to Bradford, he was locked onto him the whole way.

thats not true. i know for a fact one pass to bradford carr looked right, then middle, and finally left were he found bradford(who droped it).

Bubbajwp
10-30-2005, 05:14 PM
Can we change the Title to Wongers latest excuses.

mean mark8
10-30-2005, 05:21 PM
Carr had two passes today where he looked like an NFL QB. The first TD to Mathis, our very first lead of the entire season, which is a record dating back to 1933. The second was the pass to Gaffney on 3rd and 19. Maybe because he has no faith in his o-line anymore, he does not scramble to make time to throw any longer. When he scrambles, it's to be a runner. I was at the game and on at least 2 of his runs there were receivers down field open, on one he had 3 guys deep against man coverage with no one underneath the receivers and our guys under the coverage. Having the DBs 2 steps away from your receiver is open in the NFL. Carr doesn't look to throw the ball if he has to move at all in the pocket. He locks onto the 1st receiver then looks to DD. If neither is open he's running. This may be justified due to his pass protection to date, but it's not NFL calliber football. I don't even blame Carr. It's like other posts say, we only audible from a run right to a run left. Our coaching is pathetic and that includes the coaching of Carr. Thank goodness our defense and Mathis made enough plays to put us in the position to win this one. Our coaches continue to play not to lose rather than playing to win. In this game, being close in the 4th was good enough for the W and I'll take it.

Texan Gal 312
10-30-2005, 07:39 PM
View from the 600's -- Most of our routes involve only 3 receivers and there are just not any open. Just one time when Carr scrambles I would like to see a receiver make an effort to come back to Carr.
While most complained about all the dump passes to DD I would love to see that back in our offense. I saw it once today. He is not a great blocker, get him out in the patterns.

alphajoker
10-30-2005, 08:38 PM
View from the 600's -- Most of our routes involve only 3 receivers and there are just not any open. Just one time when Carr scrambles I would like to see a receiver make an effort to come back to Carr.
While most complained about all the dump passes to DD I would love to see that back in our offense. I saw it once today. He is not a great blocker, get him out in the patterns.

You bring up a good point Texan Gal. DD is a good receiving back and he did get close to 600 yards receiving last year. I think they could maybe utilize him more by putting him the slot or throw it to him on a rollout where he can get it on the run.

Reddevil63
10-30-2005, 08:50 PM
View from the 600's -- Most of our routes involve only 3 receivers and there are just not any open. Just one time when Carr scrambles I would like to see a receiver make an effort to come back to Carr.
While most complained about all the dump passes to DD I would love to see that back in our offense. I saw it once today. He is not a great blocker, get him out in the patterns.
She gets it, why cant anybody else? Carr has NO options to check down to. Most of the time its only 1 or 2 recievers going out on routes, you think the opposing DB's have a hard time covering 2 recievers? Theses clowns they call coaches have this team so handcuffed they cant do anything.

NFLforher
10-30-2005, 09:25 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.


We won, why don't you eat?

Napa Auto Parts
10-30-2005, 09:56 PM
Well im happy than we won but i agree with you Wonger David is no Great Qb not even a decent one for the mediocre play we get from him we should sign a journey man only at a much cheaper rate. but we won because thank god the coaching staff put the game on DD shoulders they couldnt afford to have david blow another game.

Fourth Quarter
Houston Texans continued...
2-10-CLE21 (15:00) D.Davis up the middle to CLV 17 for 4 yards (O.Roye, J.Fisk).
3-6-CLE17 (14:17) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
4-6-CLE17 (14:12) K.Brown 35 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
CLE 13 HOU 16, Plays: 7 Yards: 15 Possession: 3:19.

Houston Texans at 14:08
K.Brown kicks 65 yards from HST 30 to CLV 5. J.Cribbs to CLV 25 for 20 yards (M.Norris, J.Bell).
Cleveland Browns at 14:01
1-10-CLE25 (14:01) T.Dilfer pass to B.Edwards to CLV 31 for 6 yards (S.Orr). (1 yard after catch.)
2-4-CLE31 (13:29) R.Droughns left tackle to CLV 34 for 3 yards (J.Simmons).
3-1-CLE34 (12:54) R.Droughns up the middle to CLV 34 for no gain (S.Payne, M.Greenwood).
4-1-CLE34 (12:04) K.Richardson punts 10 yards to CLV 44, Center-R.Pontbriand, out of bounds.
Houston Texans at 11:58
1-10-CLE44 (11:58) D.Davis up the middle to CLV 26 for 18 yards (L.Bodden).
1-10-CLE26 (11:18) PENALTY on HST-M.Brown, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CLV 26 - No Play.
1-15-CLE31 (11:00) D.Davis left tackle to CLV 23 for 8 yards (M.Lehan, L.Bodden).
2-7-CLE23 (10:22) D.Davis up the middle to CLV 20 for 3 yards (S.Jones).
3-4-CLE20 (9:46) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney (B.Russell).
4-4-CLE20 (9:40) K.Brown 38 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
Cleveland Browns at 09:35
1-10-CLE28 (9:35) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to R.Droughns (R.Smith).
2-10-CLE28 (9:29) T.Dilfer pass to S.Heiden to CLV 34 for 6 yards (M.Greenwood). (No yards after catch.)
3-4-CLE34 (8:45) T.Dilfer right end to CLV 40 for 6 yards (A.Peek; G.Walker).
1-10-CLE40 (8:04) R.Droughns up the middle to HST 44 for 16 yards (M.Coleman).
1-10-HOU44 (7:30) R.Droughns left guard to HST 42 for 2 yards (T.Johnson, D.Robinson).
2-8-HOU42 (6:55) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to W.Green (C.Anderson).
3-8-HOU42 (6:50) T.Dilfer pass to A.Bryant to HST 22 for 20 yards (J.Simmons).
1-10-HOU22 (6:04) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to R.Droughns (D.Faggins).
2-10-HOU22 (5:59) R.Droughns right guard to HST 20 for 2 yards (C.Brown).
3-8-HOU20 (5:16) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to A.Bryant (D.Faggins). Play Challenged by CLV and Upheld. (Timeout #1 by CLV.)
4-8-HOU20 (5:10) P.Dawson 37 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-R.Pontbriand, Holder-K.Richardson.
CLE 16 HOU 16, Plays: 11 Yards: 52 Possession: 4:29.

Cleveland Browns at 05:06
P.Dawson kicks 73 yards from CLV 30 to HST -3. J.Mathis ran ob at CLV 40 for 63 yards (M.Lehan).
Houston Texans at 04:56
1-10-CLE40 (4:56) D.Davis up the middle to CLV 37 for 3 yards (C.Thompson, O.Roye).
2-7-CLE37 (4:22) J.Gaffney left end to CLV 27 for 10 yards (C.Thompson, B.Russell).
1-10-CLE27 (3:43) D.Davis right guard to CLV 22 for 5 yards (J.Fisk; K.Lang).
2-5-CLE22 (3:03) D.Carr right end ran ob at CLV 22 for no gain (L.Bodden). (QB bootleg with no receivers downfield.)
3-5-CLE22 (2:56) D.Carr pass incomplete to D.Armstrong.
4-5-CLE22 (2:50) K.Brown 40 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.Pittman, Holder-C.Stanley.
CLE 16 HOU 19, Plays: 6 Yards: 18 Possession: 2:21.

Houston Texans at 02:45
K.Brown kicks 59 yards from HST 30 to CLV 11. C.McIntyre to CLV 27 for 16 yards (C.Anderson, R.Walker).
Cleveland Browns at 02:38
1-10-CLE27 (2:38) W.Green right end to CLV 33 for 6 yards (D.Polk).
2-4-CLE33 (2:05) W.Green left guard to CLV 40 for 7 yards (J.Simmons).
1-10-CLE40 (2:00) PENALTY on CLV-R.Tucker, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CLV 40 - No Play.
1-15-CLE35 (2:00) (Shotgun) T.Dilfer pass to B.Edwards to HST 39 for 26 yards (D.Faggins). (1 yard after catch.)
1-10-HOU39 (1:32) (Shotgun) W.Green up the middle to HST 38 for 1 yard (R.Smith).
2-9-HOU38 (1:09) (Shotgun) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to D.Northcutt (P.Buchanon).
3-9-HOU38 (1:03) (Shotgun) T.Dilfer sacked at HST 46 for -8 yards (G.Walker).
4-17-HOU46 (:50) T.Dilfer pass incomplete to A.Bryant (P.Buchanon).
Houston Texans at 00:43
1-10-HOU47 (:43) D.Carr kneels to HST 46 for -1 yards. (Line of scrimmage changes due to change of possession.)
2-11-HOU46 (:38) D.Carr kneels to HST 44 for -2 yards.

SESupergenius
10-31-2005, 12:03 AM
David Carr played very good today, very smart football with what he has. Bradfords lack of effort is inexcusable, that costs Carr. The rollsouts are starting to be keyed on and we are losing that play. The coaching staff does not make adjustments to this and we are suffering for it. Carr needs to be able to take this offense as his own.

chuckm
10-31-2005, 05:32 AM
So now the feds are after me wow im sure to be on AMW :yahoo:


I had a post to this thread deleted by Lucky last night for "an insult to wonger" ... so let me rephrase my original post ....


Methinks Wonger Doth Protest Too Much ...... that's a terrible paraphrase of Wm Shakespeare but it works

brickmantexanfan
10-31-2005, 05:43 AM
he does lock on to his reciever a little to much. but there were several times when he checked down today.



As many times as he has been on his back this year and all the Tide it takes to get those grass stains out,it is no wonder he is in the habit of locking into a reciever and getting rid of the ball,one game he gets a little protection and i mean a little,everyone thinks he should be superman,it only take a cow a couple times to get shocked by that fence before he quits trying to eat grass from the otherside and the day you turn that fence off don't expect him to just run over and start eating from that side again.:brickwall

aj.
10-31-2005, 06:51 AM
Carr was far from great but in this game it didn't matter. Too bad he can't play against his mentor every week.

BigBull17
10-31-2005, 07:31 AM
Lest we all forget, Grantham was our DL coach up until this year. Do you think he can get inside Capers head a little bit? Now you know Capers knows this, and yet he gameplanned the same old stupid way he always does. Mr. predictable! And perish the thought of even trying to do some adjustments at halftime! Now you see how bad Cleveland must really be if we still beat 'em after all that!
A dunk monkey with a limp could get in Capers head....

Scooter
10-31-2005, 08:00 AM
i'm really having a hard time calling this game a win, despite what the scoreboard says. the browns just handed us the game. when your punter muffs twice and you cough up the ball twice, you're not going to beat anyone ... even the texans. sorry if i'm being a downer, but despite getting the W we played as bad as any other game this season, if not worse.

as for carr, he had 2 good plays. the deep ball to mathis, and the 3rd & long to gaffney. outside of that i'm having a hard time praising him. 10 for 20 for 138 yards and 1td/1int isnt exactly going to scare defenses. his feet were as much of a problem as they always are, and please dont use the fact that the browns only got 2 sacks as a bright spot for carr's play. take away carr's longest run (7 yards) and he averaged a little over 1 yard per carry ... basically carr fleeing the pocket (for no reason) and this time actually getting back to the LOS. if not for a couple feet on those "running scared" plays ... he would've ended up with more sacks than carries. the pocket was there, yes the receivers probably werent, but carr still didnt bother to move within the pocket and scan the field.

the kid's got an arm and i for one cant wait til the day we get to see it's full potential ... but his head and feet still have a LOT of work to do.

and as always, our coaching is pathetic. carr had no legitimate threats outside of gaffney, and we never gave DD a chance to make a difference.

SESupergenius
10-31-2005, 08:45 AM
I saw Carr move around in the pocket just fine. I don't know what game u were watching. Just take this one play where carr threw 20 yards on 3rd down to give us a first. He moved around in the pocket waiting for the play to develop. That was the best play i've seen from the line all year, the gave Carr time to throw. The play took forever because of thr route, you hardly ever see us get that kind of time.

the wonger need food
10-31-2005, 09:01 AM
:highfive: Exactly.....:cool:

Carr made some great passes today.

He made one "great" pass and a few decent passes that any NFL QB should be required to make.

138 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 50% completion rate and 6.9 ypp average... against one of the worst defenses in the NFL. This guy is barely a decent NFL backup.

J-Man
10-31-2005, 12:30 PM
Everybody...

I just wanted to put this on the table (actually thought of starting a new thread for this) reference all the talk about Carr did/didn't do this or that and such-such WR did/didn't do something.

By and large this board has some very smart fans that have a keen eye...BUT very few can actually breakdown game tape and come up with anything other than mimicwhat they hear on ESPN Sunday Countdown. Even fewer people actually have access to coaches tapes which show the whole field and allow you to see the big picture. I get a chuckle out of people that TiVo the edited broadcast and "break down the game" on the boards here.

I guess my point is that we tend to make some pretty broad statements (sometimes borderline rude) about a players ability on very limited information. Example...David Carr. Every time I see some one post Carr holds the ball to long I wonder if they were at the game or just watching TV so they can tell if ANYBODY was actually kinda open. Just to let you know it's pretty tough to actually tell if someone is "locking in" on a receiver from most of the TV edits. It's also not uncommon to have a play with only a primary option and one safety valve.

I am a supporter of David Carr, however, he has issues with his game...inconsistency and patience in the pocket being chief among them. He also has a lower overall level of talent around him to work with. I believe that with the correct system and coaching he could be pretty good. My example here would be Jake Plummer. If anyone saw him playing in Arizona they would swear they were seeing Carr with a bird on his helmet. Jake goes to Denver and has flashes of brilliance and flashes of bull****. Once he is deprogrammed by Shanahan and Kubiak and starts playing with a better team he is consistently pretty good, not great and not horrible.

We can debate on Carr being worth a nickel all day...but it's tough to tell with the current coaching scheme and overall level of play from the team. He may in fact turn out to be a career back-up, we just don't know right now. As for Sunday's game...a win is a win and you are what you are. We won, who cares if it's the Browns, it could have been Indy for that matter (see SF vs TB yesterday). Could we have played better...yes, but right now I don't care.

chuckm
10-31-2005, 12:37 PM
Everybody...

I just wanted to put this on the table (actually thought of starting a new thread for this) reference all the talk about Carr did/didn't do this or that and such-such WR did/didn't do something...........

Wow ... common sense ...... very refreshing ..... thanks

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2005, 12:47 PM
Carr was better than Carr normally is yesterday.

I wish he was as good as a football player as Plummer is. Plummer at least has an undenialbe feel for the game and the ability to orchestrate comebacks. Both of these talents were seen pre Denver and have not been seen to date in Houston.

chuckm
10-31-2005, 12:56 PM
Starting a thread like this after we won just shows how negative you are.:rolleyes:

Be nice ..... Big Brother is watching ....... :penalty:

aj.
10-31-2005, 01:09 PM
When you're in the stands and you can see the QB, the coverage, and the receiver(s) in their route(s) at the same time, you can see the things related to 'vision' and 'timing' and 'decision making' that are next to impossible to see on television without a precise replay.

When you're in the stands, you can miss some things too. There's too much going on at once to be able to see everything. That's why I typically use one to supplement the other before I praise or criticize anything other than the obvious.

Carr wasn't horrible yesterday but he sure wasn't great either. I'd like to see him in a different system -- that's why I wouldn't be opposed to the two year extension. That said, he has some issues that he needs to overcome too - things that aren't related to how far he can throw a ball or how fast he can run. It's not all the o-line or the system or the WR corps. Some of it is on him.

nunusguy
10-31-2005, 01:14 PM
As far as the topic is concerned. We would have to have several games in which Carr received this much time to throw before I could REALLY judge him on HIS abilities as a QB. There just isn't a large enough body of work to establish an accurate assessment at this point. There are too many other factors weighing down his performance from week-to-week.
Nothing illustrates the descrepancy in the talent of Carr's team mates compared to Plumber's better than TE - Carr thru a better pass to Rivers, which the TE tipped and was therefor subsequently intercepted, while Plumbers's pass to his TE in the EZ was way off the target but the TE
makes a spectacular one-handed catch. In the stats, its an interception for
Carr but a TD pass for Plumber. Thens there's WR Rob Smith and the Broncos OL. I dunno....maybe someday Carr will be surrrounded by that kind of talent, if not here hopefully else where.

thegr8fan
10-31-2005, 01:28 PM
TE in the EZ was way off the target but the TE
makes a spectacular one-handed catch.Billy Miller was our pass catching TE, but he plays for the Browns now. We don't have a TE that could be called a pass catcher. But that really just shows yet another poor choice by our coach's on the roster, IMHO.

As for the Carr/TE pass for an INT. The TE was at the height of his jump and it just went through his hands. he actually was covered pretty well and it wasn't a good choice for a pass to begin with, IMHO. Carr is lucky that the TE did actually tip it, and the Brown player didn't intercept it in front of the TE. Bad luck, or as pointed out above, poor decision by Carr on a target, was why that INT happened.

J-Man
10-31-2005, 01:59 PM
When you're in the stands and you can see the QB, the coverage, and the receiver(s) in their route(s) at the same time, you can see the things related to 'vision' and 'timing' and 'decision making' that are next to impossible to see on television without a precise replay.

When you're in the stands, you can miss some things too. There's too much going on at once to be able to see everything. That's why I typically use one to supplement the other before I praise or criticize anything other than the obvious.

Carr wasn't horrible yesterday but he sure wasn't great either. I'd like to see him in a different system -- that's why I wouldn't be opposed to the two year extension. That said, he has some issues that he needs to overcome too - things that aren't related to how far he can throw a ball or how fast he can run. It's not all the o-line or the system or the WR corps. Some of it is on him.

Good point, AJ. I entirely agree that Carr has some issues, and like I said, he may never be more than a good back up. I do think that many of the issues relate to his introduction to the NFL (read Coaching and Development). My opinion, for what it's worth, is that with the right coaching support he has the potential to be pretty good.

I love watching the games on TV, but I do get frustrated be cause the camera views limit you to what the producers think you want to see. Watching in person is a great way to measure your team, you can select a couple plays to focus on the line, receivers, a specific player or you can get the big picture. Like you pointed out it's easy to miss things live as well.

I would be very intrested to be a fly on the wall during the post-game tape session. You go thru your position review, get your grades, and see the whole tape from the team prespective. I think it would be pretty enlightening to sit thru that if your really intrested in seeing where execution and gameplan suceed or fail.

Texas
10-31-2005, 02:13 PM
were he found bradford(who droped it).


Hmmm Have I heard that before?:sarcasm:

El Tejano
10-31-2005, 02:21 PM
It would also help if the coaches put the right receivers out there to help give Carr some confidence. Bradford aint doing it and if you notice when Armstrong and Gaffney took over the offense started moving.

the wonger need food
10-31-2005, 02:40 PM
Correction he made at least 2 great passes, the one to Mathis and the one over the middle to Gaffney. Believe me, I have started to question his decisions and he still stepped into a couple of sacks.

Starting a thread like this after we won just shows how negative you are.:rolleyes:

I'll give you the one to Gaffney also. So he had two pretty good passes against one of the worst defenses in the NFL.... with plenty of time to throw most of the day.

The guy is not a playmaker at the position like the great (or even good) ones are. If you put Favre or Manning or Palmer or even Leftwich on this team right now, they would figure out a way to pass for over 200 yards every once in a while. This guy has (1) 200 yard passing game in his past 15. One. Uno. And has multiple TD's once (2 total against Tennessee) in that same span.

It's time to stop making excuses for the guy... he is a below-average QB.

nunusguy
10-31-2005, 03:32 PM
As for the Carr/TE pass for an INT. The TE was at the height of his jump and it just went through his hands. he actually was covered pretty well and it wasn't a good choice for a pass to begin with, IMHO. Carr is lucky that the TE did actually tip it, and the Brown player didn't intercept it in front of the TE. Bad luck, or as pointed out above, poor decision by Carr on a target, was why that INT happened.
"Went through his hands" is the operative & key phrase, so how you get from
that to say Carr was in anyway lucky on that particular play is beyond me ? He was unlucky not to have a TE like lucky Bronco QB Plumber had who made a play on the QBs pass for a TD. This the NFL, these guys are supposed to make a play on a pass like the one that Rivers didn't.

El Tejano
10-31-2005, 03:34 PM
"Went through his hands" is the operative & key phrase, so how you get from
that to say Carr was in anyway lucky on that particular play is beyond me ? He was unlucky not to have a TE like lucky Bronco QB Plumber had who made a play on the QBs pass for a TD. This the NFL, these guys are supposed to make a play on a pass like the one that Rivers didn't.
Two words David Thomas

infantrycak
10-31-2005, 04:12 PM
I guess my point is that we tend to make some pretty broad statements (sometimes borderline rude) about a players ability on very limited information. Example...David Carr. Every time I see some one post Carr holds the ball to long I wonder if they were at the game or just watching TV so they can tell if ANYBODY was actually kinda open. Just to let you know it's pretty tough to actually tell if someone is "locking in" on a receiver from most of the TV edits. It's also not uncommon to have a play with only a primary option and one safety valve.

I absolutely agree that we get a lot of pretty broad and unsubstantiated statements. What is worse is many times they get parroted around as if they are commonly accepted fact. Logic doesn't even apply to many of them, for instance how do you criticize Carr for locking onto his primary when the ball is coming out of his hand in under 2 seconds. That is drop and throw, not read #1, read #2, read #3.

Even fewer people actually have access to coaches tapes which show the whole field and allow you to see the big picture. I get a chuckle out of people that TiVo the edited broadcast and "break down the game" on the boards here.

Hey, we have to work with what we have. I am posting another thread on the Seahawks game, but obviously with the huge caveat that we can't see what is happening with the WR's down field which leaves a huge hole on judging Carr's performance. Even without the game tape I do think there is plenty to analyze in the broadcast.

Runner
10-31-2005, 04:52 PM
Hey, we have to work with what we have. I am posting another thread on the Seahawks game, but obviously with the huge caveat that we can't see what is happening with the WR's down field which leaves a huge hole on judging Carr's performance. Even without the game tape I do think there is plenty to analyze in the broadcast.

I get a chuckle out of people that TiVo the edited broadcast and "break down the game" on the boards here.



You're right, we have to work with what we have. However, as has been stated we can't see everything on a recording from the TV broadcast. We also don't know exactly what play was called. For instance on the offensive side we don't know the exact play, what routes the receivers were running, who has blitz pick-up, what the o-line call was, etc. We make educated guesses, but we still don't know all of this. However, if someone disagrees with the original poster who "broke down tape", the original poster many times gets angry and goes on a diatribe about how he looked at the tape and knows what's going on, and until the second poster "breaks down tape" his opinion is worthless.

I find this funny, like J-Man said earlier, and I don't get too worked up about it anymore.

Here is one example. I don't remember exactly what game it was, but it was on a sack play. Either Pitts or Riley was getting blamed on this board for giving up the sack. I asked some of the players I know what happened. I'm paraphrasing, but they said something like "McKinney made the line call, but he made the wrong call. Pitts knew it was the wrong call, and ignored the call and performed his responsibility as if McKinney had made the correct call. Riley didn't know it was the wrong call (inexperience in the system) and did what McKinney called." Obviously there was a breakdown in communication, but who's "fault" was this sack? The guy who made the wrong call? The guy who ignored the call? The guy who didn't know the system well enough to do the "right" thing? The coaches for not having the line coached better? Who saw any of this "breaking down film"?

Let's not take our own opinions too seriously.


I also asked these guys what would have happened if Wand had been in there. They thought he would have done the same thing as Pitts, ignored the call and done the "right" thing - because they did so last year. Pitts and Wand would have played together and the play may have had more success.

This is an example of the line gelling, and why Pitts at guard and Wand at tackle should have been where we started at the beginning of the season. We threw away all of the hard earned o-line teamwork experience last year, because Pendry started Riley over Wand. We've all seen how good Riley is - not near as good as Wand last year.

giovanni338
10-31-2005, 05:45 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.
Dont make excuses for carr.Hes not the qb that we need.Everyone is making him out to be better then he really is.Come on.4 years and he still sucks...We need a whole new team and coach..

the wonger need food
10-31-2005, 06:09 PM
I'm not making excuses, just tired of the same ol negative, our team sucks attitude from you. I don't care if it was a bad team we beat. At least we won and we are not going to go 0-16. I don't care if Carr only completed 50%(which isn't that bad by the way) of his passes(remember Bradford dropped 3) and threw 1 int(Rivers should have caught that one). We may have a long way to go but a win is a win. Every since you have come on here it's been negative. I guess I am a little tired of the card that you play and it is very old. Not once have you posted a positive comment.

Facts are facts my friend. I apologize for not living in your fantasy world where David Carr and his offense is at least respectable. The fact is that this is one of the worst offenses in the modern history of the NFL and Carr is its leader by default.

edo783
10-31-2005, 06:34 PM
I am just saying I am tired of your negativity.
Go Texans!
:fans:

Me to. That's why he is on my ignor list. One of the best things I have done. I like folks that have opinions and don't just dog the team. If they don't like the team that badly they should just hike their sorry butts over to some other team who is winning. Then they can be happy. I am SURE the reply will be "I am a good fan". Frankly, I doubt this type of poster really is a fan of the team. I suspect they are more a fan of hate and discontent. Do we have issues.....you bet, big time, but NOTHING is ever ALL wrong like some would have you believe. These types just like to stew in their own dirty diaphers and try to get everyone else smelling the same stuff they are.

Vinny
10-31-2005, 06:40 PM
You're right, we have to work with what we have. However, as has been stated we can't see everything on a recording from the TV broadcast. We also don't know exactly what play was called. For instance on the offensive side we don't know the exact play, what routes the receivers were running, who has blitz pick-up, what the o-line call was, etc. We make educated guesses, but we still don't know all of this. However, if someone disagrees with the original poster who "broke down tape", the original poster many times gets angry and goes on a diatribe about how he looked at the tape and knows what's going on, and until the second poster "breaks down tape" his opinion is worthless.I put up some comments on every play early on here and spent a good 2 - 3 hours on it. I took time to watch everything in slow motion and made sure to point out that I was just commenting on the action on the field and stated clearly I wasn’t "grading tape". The reason I pulled it was because within 3 minutes there were 3 posters tearing the comments apart. There was no way any of those guys took the time to look at the tape and made comments about how wrong I was. If someone is going to take the time to break down each snap then people should be good enough to go look and see what they are talking about before they comment on it.

On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.

Texan Gal 312
10-31-2005, 06:40 PM
For all of you who think it is all Carr's fault or think he can not succeed, I have two words -Drew Brees - He was absolutely being toasted in San Diego, probably much worse than Carr is here. They even drafted a new quarterback, then Drew goes to the Pro Bowl. Somebody tell me, what happened ? Did he suddenly "get it"? Did he from one year to the next learn to read defenses ? Did they bring in a new offensive coordinator ?

I would say they somehow got better talent around him. They also had one major stroke of genius named Antonio Gates. Just think if they would have used the Rivers pick on another playmaker. I would mention LT but he was there when Brees was being toasted.

Vinny
10-31-2005, 06:43 PM
Also, if you guys don't like wonger you need to put him on ignore. He isn't running around calling posters names or anything.

Runner
10-31-2005, 06:52 PM
On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.

Actually, I didn't see your stuff on HPF - I didn't know these guys were talking about a specific post at all, if that's what they were talking about. I was speaking more in general that none of us, including me, really, really know what is going on down on the field. Granted studying the replays gives a person a leg up, because there is too much to see all at once, and I've been known to look at plays 2-3 times also. It helps to take a serious look at replays. I think we all just need to calm down at times and realize that we might be wrong - this is a discussion board after all. I like to treat this board like I'm hanging out with the guys at the bar talking football. It gets so vituperative here sometimes that if I was in that bar I'd be changing tables or leaving.

This isn't directed at any one person; just a general comment.

Vinny
10-31-2005, 06:54 PM
I was just clearing up my share since I do it often. I always point out that I have zero clue to assignments and only comment on what I can see.

Runner
10-31-2005, 06:57 PM
And now, back to football.

How 'bout them Texans

cuppacoffee
10-31-2005, 06:57 PM
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.

What is a wonger? What do they eat? Please feed it. :rolleyes:

cuppacoffee
10-31-2005, 07:52 PM
No I have a better plan... BAN HIM! J/K I can dream right?:) I'll give in and put him on ignore like edo says he is probably not even a fan. I know he used to be a Colt fan and joined the same week as we played the Colts. So I say he is a Colt troll and I will put him on ignore.:texflag:

Some posters can really get under the skin, but this MB would sure be boring if we all agreed with each other.

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2005, 09:24 PM
For all of you who think it is all Carr's fault or think he can not succeed, I have two words -Drew Brees - He was absolutely being toasted in San Diego, probably much worse than Carr is here. They even drafted a new quarterback, then Drew goes to the Pro Bowl. Somebody tell me, what happened ? Did he suddenly "get it"? Did he from one year to the next learn to read defenses ? Did they bring in a new offensive coordinator ?

I would say they somehow got better talent around him. They also had one major stroke of genius named Antonio Gates. Just think if they would have used the Rivers pick on another playmaker. I would mention LT but he was there when Brees was being toasted.

I agree with you except for two undeniable things:
- Brees did not carry 1st pick money
- Competition is a tested idea that works

Runner
10-31-2005, 10:04 PM
I agree with you except for two undeniable things:
- Brees did not carry 1st pick money
- Competition is a tested idea that works

I'd change that to "A fair, real competition is a tested idea that works". I'm not sure our staff could do that.

Remember that training camp "competition" for left tackle when the coaches gave the job to Riley on the second day? Knowing what we fans know now, what do you think the players thought of that switch? They had to recognize that Riley didn't have the goods, and still they tell Carr that this guy has got his back. David must have wondered what was going on, to say nothing of the other players. Do you think they wondered about their futures if coaches would replace players not based on performance? It's not like Wand is anything but a solid citizen on or off the field. I've never read about any off field problems, unless I missed them.

How about Hollings? We released players that were competing for a roster spot with him. Was that a fair competition? I don't see him ever producing for this team.

Bradford as #2 receiver? This isn't as cut and dried, but at some point don't you have to sit him to show that performance matters? Gafney and Armstrong have been competing for more minutes for a long time.

Competition is good, as long as it's competition in more than name only - otherwise coaches risk losing the players.

J-Man
11-01-2005, 06:03 AM
I put up some comments on every play early on here and spent a good 2 - 3 hours on it. I took time to watch everything in slow motion and made sure to point out that I was just commenting on the action on the field and stated clearly I wasn’t "grading tape". The reason I pulled it was because within 3 minutes there were 3 posters tearing the comments apart. There was no way any of those guys took the time to look at the tape and made comments about how wrong I was. If someone is going to take the time to break down each snap then people should be good enough to go look and see what they are talking about before they comment on it.

On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.

Let me clarify a bit...I probably should have noted this in the original post...There are a very few people who do spend a large amount of time and come up with some quality insights based on game film. I agree entirely that most people don't actually take the time to study things in order to make good assumptions, which was one of the reasons for the original post.

The biggest things that we can pull from TV tape is an individual players technique. Does an OL get beat when he engages, was the exchange from C to QB clean? Those are the best questions you can answer. That being said one of the few things you can make some educated guesses on are the OL and RB play and the defensive front 7. It's very tough to get a good feel for the periphery of the field. I think that most of us realize that and tend to qualify our opinons to take that into account.

The reason that I posted originally was that I guess I get a bit miffed when you continually see posts that say things like "this guys is horrible...no future in the league" when the fact is that we really don't know. I said earlier that I do like Carr and hope he does well, but if we can build around him and he can't progress he needs to move on. To date we have not been successful at putting the team together around him.

the wonger need food
11-01-2005, 08:56 AM
I'd change that to "A fair, real competition is a tested idea that works". I'm not sure our staff could do that.

Remember that training camp "competition" for left tackle when the coaches gave the job to Riley on the second day? Knowing what we fans know now, what do you think the players thought of that switch? They had to recognize that Riley didn't have the goods, and still they tell Carr that this guy has got his back. David must have wondered what was going on, to say nothing of the other players. Do you think they wondered about their futures if coaches would replace players not based on performance? It's not like Wand is anything but a solid citizen on or off the field. I've never read about any off field problems, unless I missed them.

How about Hollings? We released players that were competing for a roster spot with him. Was that a fair competition? I don't see him ever producing for this team.

Bradford as #2 receiver? This isn't as cut and dried, but at some point don't you have to sit him to show that performance matters? Gafney and Armstrong have been competing for more minutes for a long time.

Competition is good, as long as it's competition in more than name only - otherwise coaches risk losing the players.

Great points. We've seen it over and over again with this organization. They put players on the field/roster based on where they were drafted or how much they are paid.

Bradford and Riley were the two big free agent signings that were supposed to address 2 huge needs for this team. Now neither is starting.

chuckm
11-01-2005, 09:10 AM
Also, if you guys don't like wonger you need to put him on ignore. He isn't running around calling posters names or anything.


Awesome Awesome .... I should read the fine print more often because I didn't even know this was possible .....


Hey wonger .... how about posting another "Carr Sucks" message so I can make sure this works .....

infantrycak
11-01-2005, 09:23 AM
Great points. We've seen it over and over again with this organization. They put players on the field/roster based on where they were drafted or how much they are paid.

Really?--have any examples and substantiation for that?

League minimum Riley starting over 3rd round Wand--nope that doesn't fit.
League minimum Riley taking playing time from $25 mil Wade--nope that doesn't fit.
4th rounder DD taking the starting job from FA acquisition Mack--nope that doesn't fit.
2nd rounder Hollings and 3rd rounder Morency taking all those snaps away from 4th rounder DD (oops that hasn't happened)--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Faggins starting over 1st rounder Buchanon--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Brown starting over 4th rounder Earl--nope that doesn't fit.

Where exactly are all these players who are out on the field because of where they were drafted or the amount of money they are making vs. that they are best at their position?

the wonger need food
11-01-2005, 09:37 AM
Really?--have any examples and substantiation for that?

League minimum Riley starting over 3rd round Wand--nope that doesn't fit.
League minimum Riley taking playing time from $25 mil Wade--nope that doesn't fit.
4th rounder DD taking the starting job from FA acquisition Mack--nope that doesn't fit.
2nd rounder Hollings and 3rd rounder Morency taking all those snaps away from 4th rounder DD (oops that hasn't happened)--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Faggins starting over 1st rounder Buchanon--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Brown starting over 4th rounder Earl--nope that doesn't fit.

Where exactly are all these players who are out on the field because of where they were drafted or the amount of money they are making vs. that they are best at their position?

Riley fits perfectly. He was brought in as one of the big free agent signings and was put into the starting job almost immediately.

Hollings fits perfectly. They spent a 2nd round draft pick on the guy. He has no business being on this or any other roster.

Brown is starting over Earl because Earl was hurt during camp. These are both 2nd day guys so their situation is not really applicable.

Faggins is starting over Buchanon because Buchanon showed the entire world what a coward he was in week 2. If that wasn't caught on tape he might still be starting.

Davis over Mack was a no-brainer after Mack was injured.

Basically, the coaching staff has to be beaten over the head before making any changes. Bradford and Riley are perfect examples of this.

chuckm
11-01-2005, 09:39 AM
SUCCESS :yahoo:

thanks wonger .... have a nice life

infantrycak
11-01-2005, 09:48 AM
Riley fits perfectly. He was brought in as one of the big free agent signings and was put into the starting job almost immediately.

Hollings fits perfectly. They spent a 2nd round draft pick on the guy. He has no business being on this or any other roster.

Basically, the coaching staff has to be beaten over the head before making any changes. Bradford and Riley are perfect examples of this.

That doesn't prove anything to do with money and draft picks being the motivation for the Texans personnel decisions. In fact, Bradford and Riley are counter examples of your assertion--Bradford is one they have inexplicably held on to, but he is not a draft pick or a big money guy and he has cut into the playing time of 33rd overall Gaffney and now 4th rounder Mathis. That example goes completely against you. Riley is a league minimum guy (the only thing big about his signing was his belly) so there is no way he can be proof of money or draft picks being the motivating factor especially given that they have tried to bench a 3rd rounder in favor of him and a $25 mil player. If anything Riley is even a horrible example of the coaches having to be beaten over the head before making changes--as you said he was almost handed the starting job without proof--that would be flighty decision making not hard headed. Even Hollings isn't a good example--if the coaches were trying to justify his pick, they would have him getting some carries spelling DD.

Where is there a single example of a player getting playing time because of their draft position or contract (your original assertion) rather than being better than the next guy on the depth chart?

the wonger need food
11-01-2005, 10:04 AM
Where is there a single example of a player getting playing time because of their draft position or contract (your original assertion) rather than being better than the next guy on the depth chart?

I should have included their "profile" or "status" or whatever you want to call it. Just wasn't sure how to word it. My point was that PR seems to override winning...

1) Riley starting immediately because he was signed to solve the LT problems.
2) Bradford was signed to solve the #2 receiver problem and started the first 6 games.
3) Hollings on the roster.
4) Maybe Greenwood. It's hard to say if there is someone better than him on the roster, but he hasn't done a whole lot given how much money he makes.

infantrycak
11-01-2005, 10:15 AM
My point was that PR seems to override winning...

1) Riley starting immediately because he was signed to solve the LT problems.
2) Bradford was signed to solve the #2 receiver problem and started the first 6 games.
3) Hollings on the roster.


I just don't see where you get the PR out of this. First, it is revising history to say Riley was brought here to be the LT even. That wasn't the announcement when he was signed. He was viewed as an upgrade on Marcus Spears as a veteran backup for the tackles. Somewhere along the way Wand did something that got him ditched.

How can you even begin to argue Bradford was signed to solve the #2 WR position--he was the #2 WR that was the problem they were trying to upgrade. Did they fail to upgrade him?--absolutely, but it wasn't like there was PR that signing Bradford was going to solve the problem of having Bradford.

PR hype on Hollings?--not in at least two years. Don't know who you think would have contributed instead for the roster spot, but I really don't see who was cut that would have gotten any playing time so what does it matter?

Don't get me wrong--I don't like the decisions made on Bradford or Riley or letting Glenn go for example--I just don't see where they are PR related so much as just plain poor judgment (Bradford) or punishment for something we don't know about (pure conjecture--Wand).

mean mark8
11-01-2005, 10:28 AM
Seems to me you guys have gotten a little off topic here. Isn't this thread about Carr not the coaching staff's inability to evaluate talent at other positions for keeping them on the roster let alone playing time?

Runner
11-01-2005, 11:01 AM
Seems to me you guys have gotten a little off topic here. Isn't this thread about Carr not the coaching staff's inability to evaluate talent at other positions for keeping them on the roster let alone playing time?

At least it stayed with football talk as it evolved. We should all be thankful for that.

MorKnolle
11-02-2005, 04:00 PM
Next year we need Ragone starting or maybe a quality FA QB (Kitna? Brad Johnson?) start the season as QB with a revamped offensive line (Signing Tra Thomas and drafting D'Brickashaw Ferguson would make our OL go from being a weakness to a strength). Draft a Tight End in the 2nd Round. Then we can draft a franchise quarterback in '07 with Ben Olson, Drew Olson and Vince Young being among possible choices. By '07 we could have a nice offensive nucleus to go with a young QB. If we catch lightning in a barrel maybe we hit the playoffs in '07 but like '08. With Carr, we have no chance at anything and he lost his teammates faith and respect LONG AGO. Stick a fork in him, he is done.:brickwall :brickwall

GO TEXANS!!

Doug from the Woodlands

-- The Unofficial Nostradamus of the Texans --

What could starting Dave Ragone or bringing in Brad Johnson or John Kitna possibly do to help this team? Dave Ragone is not very talented except against NFL-Europe quality players.

MorKnolle
11-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Anyone who thinks Carr looked good this past Sunday v. Browns really needs to lay off the Battle Red Kool Aid.
He still has no pocket presence (btw the line did a pretty damn good job even though against the Browns).
He still lacks the mental acumen required to be a winning starting NFL quarterback.
He still locks onto one receiver and telegraphs his passes.
He still does not throw the ball away when he is out of the pocket to avoid a sack.
He still can not read coverages.
He still can not audible into anything other than a run.
He still seems to lack leadership over the team in his 4th year as QB.
He still can not seem to throw a quality short pass into the middle of the field over the Offensive Line because his delivery is so inherently flawed.
He still has no ability to carry out a quality fake on play action calls whether they be run or pass. He gives about the same effort with fakes that Warren Moon did for years, and that aint a compliment.
He still rarely uses his Tight End.
He still plays like a Rookie essentially.


David's pocket presence is not great but it is getting better, and this is like the third game in four years that pass protection has been decent.
David is as tough and competitive as any QB in the league.
He does sometimes lock onto a receiver but when the OC only gives you two potential receivers on any given play it's hard not to, especially when one is Bradford who runs terrible routes and won't catch an open pass anyways.
He threw the ball away several times last game, hence his 50% completions.
He can read coverages when he has time, the main problem is the poor routes that OC constructs for him to throw to.
He is not allowed to audible to anything but a run.
David shows leadership by example and his toughness. Not many other QBs will get sacked as many times as him and still run and dive head-first into oncoming LBs to pick up a first down.
He can throw short balls over the middle, the OC rarely has routes for that other than a dump down to Davis, which I've never seen him deliver a bad throw on.
He does give pretty good play action fakes, I've seen several times where he's picked up a clutch first down running himself after tricking the entire defense with a play action fake.
The OC doesn't put him in a position to use TEs, they have blocking TEs that do nothing but block and don't run routes.
David plays like a man with a rookie of an OC.

ojthecat
11-02-2005, 04:26 PM
Next year we need Ragone starting or maybe a quality FA QB (Kitna? Brad Johnson?)

Quality FA does not equal Brad Johnson or Kitna. I will take Carr everyday of the week over either of these two.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 06:27 PM
David may have no OLine, no WR's and an awful coaching staff, but what was he doing running out of bounds with three minutes left in the game? I would think that he would understand time, score and situation for the money we are spending on him.

These are the type of things that make me and I am sure his cohorts scratch their head.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 06:39 PM
I would think that he would understand time, score and situation for the money we are spending on him.
Do you understand the time, score, & situation? The games was tied, it wasn't a gimme FG, and the Texans might have needed as much time on the clock as possible if Brown had missed the FG and the Browns had kicked one. Are you going to ride Joe Pendry's case for calling a pass on the following down? Was a Davis left tackle run in order?

Man, you guys are reaching for stuff this week.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 06:49 PM
Do you understand the time, score, & situation? The games was tied, it wasn't a gimme FG, and the Texans might have needed as much time on the clock as possible if Brown had missed the FG and the Browns had kicked one. Are you going to ride Joe Pendry's case for calling a pass on the following down? Was a Davis left tackle run in order?

Man, you guys are reaching for stuff this week.

We were at the 22 yard line and it would have been third and five. So you would actually play the clock that way? Forget Carr for a second and let me know if the time, score and situation were the same and QB X was running for the sideline you would want him to go out of bounds?

Lucky
11-02-2005, 06:55 PM
Answer the question. Was Pendry wrong for throwing on third down? Were the Texans attempting to run clock with 3 minutes left? No, they were trying to get a first down or a TD. I heard what the commentator said, as well. He's a buffoon. You can't run clock with 3 minutes left in a tied game.

The Browns still had the 2 minute warning & 2 timeouts. Plenty of time to score a TD, which they almost did. The Texans would have needed every second left on that clock. Get your head in the game.

GP
11-02-2005, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by the wonger need food
My point was that PR seems to override winning...

1) Riley starting immediately because he was signed to solve the LT problems.
2) Bradford was signed to solve the #2 receiver problem and started the first 6 games.
3) Hollings on the roster.

-----------------------------------

"...I just don't see where you get the PR out of this..." -- infantrycak

-----------------------------------

Check the front page of this website, specifically the article about Phillip Buchanon and how great he's turning out to be.

If that isn't a slice of Homer pie...I don't know what is.

Wasn't there any Texans reading books to kids at libraries this week, or something else to run as a story other than how much of turn around Buchanon is beginning to make?

Wonger's right on this one. Too much PR, and not enough truth serum.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 07:05 PM
Answer the question. Was Pendry wrong for throwing on third down? Were the Texans attempting to run clock with 3 minutes left? No, they were trying to get a first down or a TD. I heard what the commentator said, as well. He's a buffoon. You can't run clock with 3 minutes left in a tied game.

The Browns still had the 2 minute warning & 2 timeouts. Plenty of time to score a TD, which they almost did. The Texans would have needed every second left on that clock. Get your head in the game.

I was at the game so I cannot comment about the commentator.

Not sure why I need to answer your question, but will give it a try. Since DC ran out of bounds it put the Texans in a passing situation. If DC stays in bounds then we would run the ball again on 3rd and 5 taking us to the two minute warning.

Once again DC put us in a tight spot because of HIS decison to go out of bounds.

What would make you think that we have the luxury to pick spots for our offense to succeed? Has this team shown the ability to run a 1 minute offense.

aj.
11-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Answer the question. ... Get your head in the game.

Can we have less rude moderators please?

Kaiser. I see your point.

A slide at that point seems like a smart thing to do, especially if the play wasn't going anywhere anyway. Stopping the clock, especially when you have all your time outs left, seems a bit odd when you're tied and driving from your opponent's 22 with just under three minutes left. A Carr slide would have kept the clock running and would likely have coaxed time out #2 out of Crennel. I don't think they were necessarily playing for the FG at that point and if you asked Capers, I'm sure he would have preferred a first down and a few more plays to suck away all their TO's before either a shorter FG or a TD.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 07:12 PM
Not sure why I need to answer your question, but will give it a try. Since DC ran out of bounds it put the Texans in a passing situation. If DC stays in bounds then we would run the ball again on 3rd and 5 taking us to the two minute warning.

Once again DC put us in a tight spot because of HIS decison to go out of bounds.
OK, that was weak. You're saying you don't want the Texans trying for a TD or a completion inside the 5? Dom, is that you?


What would make you think that we have the luxury to pick spots for our offense to succeed? Has this team shown the ability to run a 1 minute offense.
Jerome Mathis has shown the ability to return a kickoff. Come on, this is silly. I'm sure you'll have much better rips on Carr next week.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 07:15 PM
Can we have less rude moderators please?
I probably shouldn't have gone "A Few Good Men" on Kaiser. Not without a smilie.

NFLforher
11-02-2005, 07:25 PM
I probably shouldn't have gone "A Few Good Men" on Kaiser. Not without a smilie.



:yahoo:

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 07:28 PM
a slide was the right thing for Carr to do in that play. Would it have eaten all of the clock up, no. But it would have given the Browns even less time. A pass play on the next play was the right thing to call for a first down attempt. But that doesn't negate the dumbness of Carr running out of bounds and stopping the clock. Just another in the list of dumb things Carr does that makes you wonder how in the heck he is not only a 1st round pick but has been playing for over 3 seasons now, IMHO.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 07:29 PM
OK, that was weak. You're saying you don't want the Texans trying for a TD or a completion inside the 5? Dom, is that you?


Jerome Mathis has shown the ability to return a kickoff. Come on, this is silly. I'm sure you'll have much better rips on Carr next week.

I really do not understand your first statement. I answered your question after you did not bother to answer my first one, which is no big deal. But to call my position weak is asinine at best.

As far as Jerome goes I think that the Browns would have figured it out not to kick to him. I do appreciate your unbridled enthusiasm for Mathis as nonsensical it may make your judgement.

As Billy Bats says to Joey D in Good Fellas, "now go get your ******* shine box!" :)

Lucky
11-02-2005, 07:46 PM
As far as Jerome goes I think that the Browns would have figured it out not to kick to him.
Why didn't they figure that out earlier? You're giving a coaching staff that lost to the Texans a lot of credit here.

OK, try this on. Carr slides for probably a one yard loss (he's killed for giving up a sack). The Browns let the clock run down to 2:15ish (why not, the score is tied and they have 2 time outs). Pendry inexplicably still calls for the pass on 3rd down (what an *****). Kris Brown duffs again. The Browns have the ball at the 30 with 2 time outs.

Same plays happen on the following drive. Except let's say there's 5 seconds on the 4th and forever. P-Buch mistimes his leap & Bryant scores the winning TD. Here's what the CBA (Carr Bashing Association) has to say on the Texans board.

"Carr's an ***** for taking that sack! He should have thrown the ball away, he wasted precious seconds in the game! Cut him now!"

Heads you win, tails Carr loses. Again.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 07:57 PM
Why didn't they figure that out earlier? You're giving a coaching staff that lost to the Texans a lot of credit here.

OK, try this on. Carr slides for probably a one yard loss (he's killed for giving up a sack). The Browns let the clock run down to 2:15ish (why not, the score is tied and they have 2 time outs). Pendry inexplicably still calls for the pass on 3rd down (what an *****). Kris Brown duffs again. The Browns have the ball at the 30 with 2 time outs.

Same plays happen on the following drive. Except let's say there's 5 seconds on the 4th and forever. P-Buch mistimes his leap & Bryant scores the winning TD. Here's what the CBA (Carr Bashing Association) has to say on the Texans board.

"Carr's an ***** for taking that sack! He should have thrown the ball away, he wasted precious seconds in the game! Cut him now!"

Heads you win, tails Carr loses. Again.

Emotions can be an obstruction to moments of clarity. Go back and read this dialogue and see what you have written. You are truly an enigma wrapped in a moderating riddle.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 08:03 PM
You are truly an enigma wrapped in a moderating riddle.
Dude, I'm just a member like you. When someone posts something naughty, I yank it. Not much too it. I'm just having a good time. Sortof.

I really think wonger needs to form the CBA and hand out titles. I mean if you guys can take the time to rip someone after what may quite possibly be the only win of the season, there's some hatin' going on. Embrace the hate, form the CBA.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 08:16 PM
Dude, I'm just a member like you. When someone posts something naughty, I yank it. Not much too it. I'm just having a good time. Sortof.

I really think wonger needs to form the CBA and hand out titles. I mean if you guys can take the time to rip someone after what may quite possibly be the only win of the season, there's some hatin' going on. Embrace the hate, form the CBA.

Not a hater, just someone who expects results. If we were 5-2 right now and we lost that game we would be talkng about that type of mental lapse. It boggles my mind how many who have a down right allegiance to Carr ask for tangible plays to discuss his performance rather than spout hyperbole. I call out a situation that Carr addressed and did not agree with his decision. The best that you can come back with is pushback in the form of deflecting the question and a crafting of your own association and other half baked innuendos. Tell tell signs of being in over your head.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 08:35 PM
...I call out a situation that Carr addressed and did not agree with his decision...
Are you planning on analyzing the guys every move in the game? Did this one play trump everything that went on during the game? From here, it looks like a fixation.

I gave you a scenario that showed the non-slide was not an absolute blunder. You didn't care for my explanation because it didn't fit your bashing, so sorry. You made a poor argument on a trivial point. After a big, big win. That's how I see it.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 08:53 PM
-----------------------------------

"...I just don't see where you get the PR out of this..." -- infantrycak

-----------------------------------


Step into Wonger's shoes there big boy. He declined to because his points on Riley and Bradford made no sense. Care to have a go at explaining how money and draft pick choices (the issue you chose to quote on) have made a difference on starter selection?

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 08:54 PM
Are you planning on analyzing the guys every move in the game? Did this one play trump everything that went on during the game? From here, it looks like a fixation.

I gave you a scenario that showed the non-slide was not an absolute blunder. You didn't care for my explanation because it didn't fit your bashing, so sorry. You made a poor argument on a trivial point. After a big, big win. That's how I see it.

Nerp. Thank you for the thoughts and may the forces of evil be confused upon your path to the next Texans game. :texflag:

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 09:02 PM
We were at the 22 yard line and it would have been third and five. So you would actually play the clock that way? Forget Carr for a second and let me know if the time, score and situation were the same and QB X was running for the sideline you would want him to go out of bounds?

Well aside from our intent to be rude moderators, here is more what happened:

3:03 2nd & 5 Cruddy camera work. 1 WR, 2 TE, FB. Designed roll right kept for 1. (OK I called it 1 off the tape, nfl.com calls it none--either way no sack).

2:56 3rd & 5. 3 WR-2L, TE-R. 5 step drop—2:54 out to Armstrong in endzone. Ball overthrown a little but Armstrong mugged at goal line—no call. Wade gets abused, his guy is in Carr’s face. DD has weak block, his guy is behind Carr.

The play you are talking about is 2nd and 5. Maybe he should have thrown it away, but how did that effect the game? The Browns were on the roll out all day long, are you really saying 1 yard, plus or minus made the difference on the day? It was not counted as a sack. 3rd & 5 Carr took his shot--so what are you saying was wrong? Are we really down to time management and pessimism to the level where we want our QB running out the clock (where have I heard this described as playing not to lose) rather than trying to get a game winning lead? Hmmm.

Kaiser Toro
11-02-2005, 09:09 PM
Well aside from our intent to be rude moderators, here is more what happened:



The play you are talking about is 2nd and 5. Maybe he should have thrown it away, but how did that effect the game? The Browns were on the roll out all day long, are you really saying 1 yard, plus or minus made the difference on the day? It was not counted as a sack. 3rd & 5 Carr took his shot--so what are you saying was wrong?

What I was saying, but was thrown off by a message board filibuster, is that Carr went out of bounds on 2nd and 5 when he should have stayed in bounds. This was a mental mistake that I thought most would agree needs to be addressed.

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 09:17 PM
not to speak for Kaiser, but what Carr did wrong is run out of bounds for no gain and stopping the clock. He should have slid or went down INBOUNDS and let the clock continue to run. Which could have meant that instead of the Browns getting the ball with 2:38 left in the game they could have easily gotten it with only 2:00 left instead. Given that the Browns last play was with 50 seconds left, I think that Carr running out of bounds was a big mistake. It meant that 45 seconds of the game could have been ran off the clock.

and as you so astutely pointed out the very next play Armstrong was LITERALLY mugged but didn't get the call. How THAT happened is beyond me with todays NFL rules regarding touching the WR after the 5 yard mark, but that is the breaks of the game. So I don't fault Pendry for calling a pass play that should have resulted in us getting at least a first down, with the proper officiating call being made there.

but hey, hindsight is always 20/20 right. :texflag:

Lucky
11-02-2005, 09:36 PM
...Which could have meant that instead of the Browns getting the ball with 2:38 left in the game they could have easily gotten it with only 2:00 left instead...
gr8, do you remember that the Browns ran off the :45 to the 2:00 warning themselves with a couple of running plays?

Cleveland Browns at 2:45, (1st play from scrimmage 2:38)
1-10-CLV 27 (2:38) 31-W.Green right end to CLV 33 for 6 yards (51-D.Polk).
2-4-CLV 33 (2:05) 31-W.Green left guard to CLV 40 for 7 yards (30-J.Simmons). R15
Two-Minute Warning

You know what I'm thinking? That Crennel wanted to run all the clock off so that the Texans wouldn't get another shot. He basically wasted that precious :45 seconds that you think Carr blundered. So in reality (where the Texans actually win the game), it wasn't a "big mistake". Or a mistake at all. It's a non-issue, except for those who want to overanalyze David Carr's every movement. Them's the facts.

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 10:08 PM
starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts. There is a whole different mentality to a team moving downfield with 2:00 remaining than one with 2:38 and a couple of timeouts AND a 2:00 warning.

all of which doesn't negate the fact that as a franchise QB with more than 3 seasons under his belt Carr should have KNOWN to not run out of bounds in that particular set of circumstances. Yes it is minor. But its the minor things that makes the difference between a win and a loss sometimes.

Personally, I think I am really more trying to say this though, Carr just doesn't have the 'smarts' to be running a football team. It is just that simple. That play simply proves it. Which is really more my point than all the woulda, coulda, shoulda stuff. If it had been a RB, or WR and they ran out of bounds instead of staying inbounds and letting the clock run, this board would be calling them just what they deserve to be called, simple minded, or at best inexperienced. Yet golden boy Carr gets yet another free pass. I just don't understand that at all.

Carr made a mistake that could have quite simply caused us to lose that game. It is just that simple. And them's the facts.

Lucky
11-02-2005, 10:25 PM
starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts...
Now I know what :brickwall is for.

gr8, Crennel ran those plays to take that time off the clock. He ran once again at 1:32 left.

1-10-HST 39 (1:32) (Shotgun) 31-W.Green up the middle to HST 38 for 1 yard (99-R.Smith).

The Browns still had a timeout in their back pocket when Showtime deflected Dilfer's 4th down pass. They wasted way more time themselves than Carr did running out of bounds. What does that tell you? The Browns were trying to make sure the Texans didn't get another shot. They never wanted the extra time that you think Carr gave them.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 10:28 PM
not to speak for Kaiser, but what Carr did wrong is run out of bounds for no gain and stopping the clock. He should have slid or went down INBOUNDS and let the clock continue to run.

See, I just view that as an "I am actively trying to find something (with minutes, hours, days of hindsight, or even that very second with a mind already trying to find things) to criticize" analysis. For an analogy--it was just funny how last year when DD broke off a 40 + yd run it was (a) only because the Titans let him do so even though Fisher said it wasn't true and (b) more to the point, selfish because he should have downed it short of the TD and ate up the clock. Carr was trying to get a 1st down with his feet (something he has done many times) or at least avoid the sack and get the ball closer to a 1st. I'd invite anyone to look back at the last three games and tell us this is really a below average QB play (there are some out there--you can keep your anti-Carr position--this just isn't one of them IMO). The play-by-play shows this wasn't the difference in time pressuring the Browns.

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 10:38 PM
the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.

and Lucky, your still clinging to a straw for a lifeboat. The reason the Browns HAD 1 timeout left is because they got the 2:00 stoppage and didn't need to use it before hand. Was their intent to run enough time off the clock so the Texans couldn't come back and kick yet another FG, if needed to tie it up YES. That is called smart football. Amazingly enough, my contention is that CARR should have been doing the same thing and NOT went out of bounds. Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 10:47 PM
the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.

It may be that simple that it is the smart thing to do, but I don't think it is that simple that the critque gets made. I don't know if you are refering to me as a Carr lover, but IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage and only a few would have been head's up enough to take as a sack and stay in bounds. I agree the smartest play would have been to slide in bounds even if it was a sack--I just disagree that it was a below average QB call. Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault. That's an honest inquiry for anyone--where should Carr or anyone else have been blamed more or less--feedback is appreciated.

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 10:52 PM
uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is. :confused:

Lucky
11-02-2005, 10:58 PM
Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.
Because the Texans could not have run the clock down. It wasn't possible without getting another 1st down. Make that 2 more 1st downs. I think it's safe to say that had the Browns picked up 1 more 1st down & got into FG range, it would have been the Texans using their own TOs. And then you would have wanted as much time on that clock as possible.

See, there are no absolutes in that scenario. Furthermore, if Capers & Pendry actually wanted to burn clock at the 3:00 mark, they would have ran Davis up the middle. And they certainly would not have passed 1 down later. You want David to employ a strategy the coaches weren't following. You're not looking at the highway, because you can't take your eyes off the Carr in front of you.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 10:59 PM
uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is. :confused:

That was ambiguous. There was an implied question of whether you were refering to me as a Carr lover. There was a more direct question of identifying individual bad plays by Carr. It refered to this thread:

infantry's Passing Break Down (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14114)

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 11:10 PM
IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage I never said it was a smart call by the OC. It was actually a dumb call, IMHO. But if he had called yet another sweep or play action the crowd would have lynched them. Personally any running play at that point in the game would have been the smart call, IMHO.

Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault. I have been pretty quiet about critiqueing Carr lately. But the same old faults that he has had since 2002 are still there. Most of them mental ones. I don't think Carr is the worst QB in the league, although this year he is mighty close to that. But I also think he has as much blame for the teams failures as the other parts of the team that aren't working, like the O-line. Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes. That play being one of them.

He did make some pass's this last game that made me see a glimmer of hope for him. Course in the first half he was still gun shy and running when he didn't have too. But I actually will him a couple of 'Wows' to go along with his playing in the last game. The pass to Gaffney being one of them. Mathis for a TD. Bradford dropped some that a rookie would have caught, not Carrs fault. But most of those happened in the second half, after someone showed Carr at halftime that he didn't have a pass rush at all and needed to stay in the pocket and do the job of a QB, IMHO.

Some of it is completely on the coach's and their play calling. That sweep where he runs 5 yards back and 3 yards over to hand the ball to DD is the dumbest play in the book for our personel, IMHO. And usually resulted in no gain. So we lined up and ran it again, and again, and again. ***** play calling.

there are more than a few games that the coaching staff of the Texans have demonstrated that they have no concept of clock management, IMHO.

this started with me simply saying that the smart thing in that situation was for Carr to take a down inbounds. It was the smart thing to do. That wasn't meant to be a Carr bashing, it was meant to be an opinion on how to play smart football. Which is mostly mental, and I simply don't think Carr has the smarts to do those kinds of things. Heck it is still year 4 and someone had to actually tell him to throw the ball away instead of running out of bounds with it for a sack. I mean does someone have to tell him EVERYTHING that he should do correctly BEFORE he does it?

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 11:17 PM
no infantry I don't class you as a Carr lover. Usually your critiques are fair and unbiased.

and Lucky, I was typing my reply as you were typing yours. And in it listed a run by Davis and the Coach's lack of clock management.

individual plays by Carr that could be critiqued in the last game, most in the first half, I won't bother with. We won, I am perfectly OK with that. I just think that there were some things that could have been done by Carr, and the Coach's far better.

minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 11:25 PM
Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes.

IMO there are a lot of mental mistakes going on (Carr's included) and for a Caperism, poor execution. There is also a lot of pre-judgment, knee-jerk, totally incorrect (as aj has pointed out over the last three years, run run pass, analysis) and that is why I have started trying to look back at every passing play. The Carr haters and Carr lovers here haven't wanted to jump into the actual analysis pool by providing any feedback on that breakdown. Absent any commentary, I take both extreme sides (viewing myself as we haven't seen the best of Carr but I don't really know how high his best is) as not really being interested in discussion. Frankly, the we suck threads get pretty boring--actually discussing players and plays in a little more depth might keep it interesting until the next hope of a winning season. Either way, I will be in my seats, as will you, Lucky, aj, etc.

minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.

And that says it IMO. 11 guys on offense. On a good day 60 opportunities. Right now each guy is having 2-3 bad plays. 25 bad plays on offense kills a team.

thegr8fan
11-02-2005, 11:43 PM
I'll try and come back for your play by play analysis for the next game infantry. I do enjoy the reads. It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. I don't want to get into Capers habit of jotting notes to myself DURING the game, LOL. But I do enjoy the play by play breakdown you give. As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.

I had a conversation with one of our tailgate crew who was convinced that Chester Pitts was killing our O-line and was the whole problem/breakdown point. Sometimes I wonder if we are watching the same game. :rolleyes: generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.

Next game we can critique the play by play though, I especially like that also.

infantrycak
11-02-2005, 11:52 PM
It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. ... As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.

I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.

generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.

That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.

Kaiser Toro
11-03-2005, 07:42 AM
I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.



That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.

I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 07:53 AM
I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.

It is hard to tell for sure from the game tape (and hard for me to remember from the game specifically), but it appears folks need to remember even though there are often 4 receivers on the field, either 3 WR's and 1 TE or 2 WR's and 2 TE's, at least two and sometimes 3 of them are running routes on the opposite side of the field from the designed roll out and thus pretty much not legitimate options for receptions--they are just dragging coverage.

SESupergenius
11-03-2005, 01:40 PM
You're foolish to think Carr had not shown his abilities with this horrendous line that gets easily pushed back into his pocket with only 4 guys rushing and a coaching staff that has pulled the reins in on this offense for many seasons now. What options do we have if we let Carr go? Draft another highly touted QB just so this line can tear him to shreads. I doubt very seriously that a guy like Leinart would stay upright for long in this system. Should we go ahead and let Carr go just like The Bucc did with Steve Young or the Falcons did with Farve?
Should we bring in some other veteran QB to compete with Banks, who pretty much did no better than Carr when he was in.

Trust me on this one, the way we are losing there are not going to be many players that we bring in that we won't have to overpay. Book it.

the wonger need food
11-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Rack'im

SESupergenius
11-03-2005, 02:42 PM
Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....Actually Young played about a season and a half with the Buccs, so really get your facts straight. And he's never had a QB rating over 80 in the seasons he's played out of college before he went to the niners. He spent 3 seasons before he went to the niners and did squat. So you knew Young was going to be a Hall of Famer coming out of BYU and playing for Fresno? I guess you knew that Farve was going to be a Superbowl champ too when he was drafted by the Falcons. Fact of the matter is, Young spent time on very bad teams, he couldn't elevate those teams. Sound familiar?


Comparing David Carr to Brett Favre is pure sacrilege. Favre, due to Glanville's infinite wisdom, never got a shot with the Falcons. The moment Favre was given a chance at starting he delivered a beleaguered franchise from the doldrums and eventually led them to multiple Super Bowl and playoff appearances. Oh yeah, and I guess there is the fact that he has won multiple MVPs, led the NFL in passing and that little thing called a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Brett Favre....ok whatever....Carr threw 3500 his 3rd year, farve was close to that. Farve didn't win a Superbowl until his 7th year in the league. Farve didn't have to start with an expansion team. I'm not saying that Carr=Farve, but I am saying that both Farve and Young's first few years are very comparable to Carr's. You think Young would still have been as good on the Buccs? NOT!!

Please everyone stop making excuses. Carr has been given a chance to show his mettle and has failed to do so in over 3 years of starting for an NFL team. Other teams would have jettisoned him like an escape pod over Tatooine long ago. We showed love, faith and patience in the past 3 years. Now its time for production. Put up or shut up time. Cowboy Up. Whatever tired cliche/buzz term you want to use. He has failed.What chance has Carr been given? A merry-go-round offensive line, an expansion team with cast off players, weak drafts and sub-par coaching. Sure buddy he's had ALL the breaks in the world. Step back a bit and focus and what we have as a team as far as players.


He lacks so many of the attributes needed to lead a team into the playoffs and to the Super Bowl. The only attribute he is bringing to the Texans at the moment are pretty boy good looks and a warm body. I will give Carr one positive remark at the moment and that he can take an **** whoopin. That is for sure. But the good QBs avoid them like the plague. Whether its his fault, coaching's fault, or the OL fault, he is shellshocked, has no confidence, does not have his team's confidence and is easily one of the 5 worst QBs in the league. But go ahead adn extend his contract. I am sure the guys in the locker room will love to hear that Carr is getting Pro Bowl money when its time for their own contracts to get reupped. If Carr is resigned you may as well get used to A.Johnson playing for someone else here in a year or two as well.....but at least we will have those great HEB commercials...Oh and please let me know what day Carr comes by and mows your lawn because its obvious he is doing something on the side for you to hold such blind misguided allegiance to him...So we jettison Carr to bring in another QB to ge "shellshocked"?? Nice thinking. If we let the team run by you then we'd have an endless revolving door of QB's that go straight to the Ward with fright. Nice.

BTW I am a season ticket holder so I guess I take it more personally when this inferior product is put on the field year after year and were expected to fork out the big bread for tickets.
You don't have much on any other hardcore fan. I spent over 250 bucks for DirectTV just to watch this crud. And usually I go to 1 game a year, that'll add up to over $500 spent just to see one game. So please, don't belittle fans that are not ticket holders.

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 02:44 PM
Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....

Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?

tsip
11-03-2005, 04:01 PM
Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?

...good post! IMO, we won't know what we have in Carr until we put some good players around him and get him a coach that understands the problem and has a clue how to correct them. In other words, we need to take all the excuses away and see what Carr can or can't do--we need to know!!!!!!

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 04:23 PM
Oh and if you want facts I could start linking stat pages but well keep it simple:

Actually what I was looking for was something other than stats. Those don't reflect things like Bradford catching 1 in 4 passes thrown to him last week. What I was looking for was a suggestion of which plays from the last game as an example, were below average QB play.

Dude throws for 138yards last Sunday and people seem to be happy....that about sums it all up for me


I'm certainly not happy at all with that. But after looking closely at the last 3 games, I don't see where that gets laid primarily at Carr's feet but would certainly invite an explanation why it should.

Vinny
11-03-2005, 04:32 PM
I'm not a big Carr fan myself. I have watched him play in over 50 starts and I don't see any intangibles that make me go "wow" this guy is something else. I see very wooden play, poor decision making, little ability to manage the game, poor pocket presence, and a guy who has never put the team on his back and taken over games.

Consider this....As fans of this team, our high point in this franchise is when we won 3 of 4 games against quality opponents in 2003. We pushed New England to the brink of a loss if not for Brady managing another come from beind victory in the last moments of that game and going on to win 3 of 4 games where we beat Buffalo and then when we beat the Panthers who eventually went to the Super Bowl that year. Who was our Quarterback in those three games? Tony Banks, that's who.

the wonger need food
11-03-2005, 04:40 PM
These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.

I'll speak for the "hater" camp. The boy just does not have "it". He has played 1 great half of football in over 50 starts (a loss against Minnesota last season) and aside from that 30 minutes has never shown us that he has what it takes to be a great, or even good NFL QB. And obviously his stats support this argument.

ArlingtonTexan
11-03-2005, 04:45 PM
While I probably have not used the same tone or have the opinion that Carr is a total spare, Honeymoon brings up a basic point that I have made in a couple of threads. Teams don't give QBs with Carr's winning percetage or stats 50 much less 60 games (year's end) of uncontested "loyality" no matter his draft position.

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 04:49 PM
These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.

There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.

Vinny
11-03-2005, 04:54 PM
There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

MightyTExan
11-03-2005, 04:56 PM
The main thing that I have not seen from Carr.

No 2-minute drill skills.

ArlingtonTexan
11-03-2005, 04:58 PM
There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.

Yep...from an on the field and business standpoint you can't invest in any QB for 4 years and not truly know what you have. I am so interested to see how the new coach staff and maybe GM handle Carr. He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge, no matter what the team does around him in regards to OL, WR, scheme , etc.

As poorly run as the Lions have been and plenty excuses for him to go around, the Lions at least know that Harrington is not worth a flip.

ArlingtonTexan
11-03-2005, 05:07 PM
While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

Since I am sort in that middle camp, (even though saying Carr is Jake Plummer used get me Carr hater status), I want to say that for his draft position, and the time invested in him, Carr never being more than an average to OK QB is a disappointment and not what you want out of the face of franchise.

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Well being an expansion franchise admittedly gives him a longer leesh, I feel picking up an $8 option for a guy who has done next to nothing, sends the wrong message to the other players on the team who will be looking for new contracts for their quality performance (AJ, Orr, Dunta, etc.). It is a question of money so we can have money to go after Tra Thomas so we can fix the OL so there are no more excuses. If Carr can come back for like $3 million and be willing to compete for the job I TOTALLY support him coming back for a mulligan in '06.

The fact is his agent and the NFLPA will not be down with that probably, so in that case you say 'later dude, its been real, its been good, but not real good' and good luck in Detroit, Miami, Baltimore, Chicago or whatever QB Graveyard you get pulled into :)

And I think Casserly or a new GM should absolutely try to work out a deal with Carr for a lower guaranteed amount, maybe with the same potential for upside. He probably won't do it and that becomes the dilemma. I don't want Banks or anyone of that defined pure back-up level of talent at QB. Ragone has shown more IMO in practice than Banks, but he hasn't looked anywhere as good as Carr--of course that is practice.

Practical reality is this discussion is most likely useless because barring a total melt-down McNair seems very intent on Carr--to the tune that he doesn't seem like he will ask Carr for a lessor contract and in fact will exercise not only the 2 year but the 3 year extension option. Of course that means with a new regime we will find out what Carr really is for good, bad or mediocre.

the wonger need food
11-03-2005, 05:08 PM
He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge

Exactly! The Texans could have made a bid for Garcia or Holcombe or McMahon or Bledsoe. Why didn't they? Tony Banks is on a much lower level than these guys.

I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it. Remember back when Drew Henson was drafted and someone had to make a call to Big Dave to let him know that everything was kosher? I have a feeling that as long as Carr is around the Texans will never bring someone in to challenge him. Maybe it's the mentality of this organization and maybe they know something about Dave that we don't.

tsip
11-03-2005, 05:16 PM
While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.

This is a very valid point that is made even more critical because of the $8 million dollar factor. Do we want to spend that kind of money on 'hope?' The problem is compounded even more because we have so many areas of the team that need fixing and are probally going to need money thrown at them, so do we have the luxury of spending the $8 million on the 'unknown.'

Your point about Banks in your previous post is also valid, as-not only has Carr not been pushed by competition-he also has not had the benefit of seeing how another QB would do in certain situations. Again, these scenarios and many others all go back to Capers--what a rigid coach he is! This man will not bend or ever admit that he's wrong. Heck, we are all wrong sometime!!

Finally, we've got to quit 'down sizing' everything to fit the players--shoot, if we're going to lose, let's at least push a few buttons. It's past time to expect results from these players, only question is-are there aggressive plays in our 'arsenal?'...knowing Capers, probally not but then-that is one reason it is so frustrating we can't even do the simple stuff.

Lucky
11-03-2005, 05:36 PM
I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it...
Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

And if you think that it's far-fetched that a coach or GM would believe they could win with David Carr at QB, remember that the mega-turd Ryan Leaf got not one, but two additional shots after flaming out in San Diego. Who knows, they may be right. As has been pointed out by the Supergenius, among others, many young QBs breakout after being exposed to better coaching.

So like it or not, David Carr will be back and starting for your Houston Texans in 2006. As distressing as that sounds, in your heart you know it's true. You can continue to whine and bemoan that for the rest of the season and throughout the offseason. You can decide not to renew your season tickets. Send McNair a nasty (yet anonymous) letter. Or you can just lay back and enjoy it. Won't change anything, because #8 will still be taking the snaps for your team.

SESupergenius
11-03-2005, 05:38 PM
After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILBs go and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.

TEXANRED
11-03-2005, 05:52 PM
Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed. He was booed his first season with such superstar support as Damingo Grahm and Young, and Chester Pitts protecting him. James Allen in the backfield and Corey Bradford catching the ball. How did we ever miss the playoffs?

The second year was just as good. With Chester Pitts still playing left tackle, a big time free agent aquisition like ZachW and Stacey Mack. At the same time drafting the future of the Texans Seth Wand. And of course Corey Bradford catching the ball. What!? No Superbowl!? Has to be Carrs fault.

Third year. This is our year. Seth Wand now starts at left tackle(despite the vast improvement by Pitts) McKinney in the best shape of his life and the final piece of the O-line puzzle in Todd Wade. We have a running back who promised 2000 yards, and Corey Bradford catching the ball. Throw in a brand spanking new totally complicated blocking scheme that none of our line-men can understand or perform. Okay:ok: now we're cookin. Did I mention Corey Bradford? We still suck? It's all David's fualt. Get a Rope.

Fourth year. This Victor Riley guy has got to be a steller super star to beat out Seth Wand. Mckinney is getting better, Zach's position has been taken over by Brown, Wade is in his prime and worth every penny, a younger and more athletic D with such players as Greenwood and PBuc, and Corey Bradford is still in the line-up. Our misfourtune's are all Carrs's fault. He should be tarred and feathered.:goodnight

Vinny
11-03-2005, 05:55 PM
Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed. This is news to me.

tsip
11-03-2005, 06:00 PM
After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILB and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.

...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??

SESupergenius
11-03-2005, 06:03 PM
On a side note, not to derail this topic, but is anyone noticing how our offense has basically been stripped down (no screens, no quick hitches etc...) since Pendy took over and slowly he's building it back up.

TEXANRED
11-03-2005, 06:07 PM
This is news to me.

You dont remember? When Carr was picked over Harrington the spectators started Booing. Loudly.

infantrycak
11-03-2005, 06:08 PM
Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

Love or hate Carr or anything in between IMO this is exactly right. Someone is going to give McNair not just the I can win with David Carr answer he is going to say he will unleash the real David Carr. Who the real David Carr is remains to be seen but IMO Lucky's crystal ball is spot on.

SESupergenius
11-03-2005, 06:11 PM
...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??It's a team game. Plain and simple. When you don't have other players making plays the whole team will suffer. I have my reservations about Carr just like everyone else, but I do see that he isn't being given a fair shot. I've actually seen Carr play in person while he was in college and know that he's not in the same league as Manning or Brady, but he does have very good potential if he gets the tools around him. The one lingering question is if we bring in another QB will this team excel with the same amount of talent? I think the overall talent on this team is poor and so I don't think bringing in another QB would get us over the hump. I havn't seen this staff open up the offense to let Carr gain his maximum potential. If Carr were to get the right coaching and right offensive mindset then I feel he'd be a lot better than just a guy being a sargeant and not a field general.

real
11-03-2005, 06:16 PM
I would like to see us look at a QB in one of the later rounds Brad Smith or Reggie McNeil if they fall that far... basically some type of mobile quaterback that could be more elusive in the pocket...and a lot of you may be thinking car is a athletic and fast, but DC is none of that..he has decent str8 ahead speed but no is not elusive enough behind such a broken down line.

utahmark
11-03-2005, 06:18 PM
You dont remember? When Carr was picked over Harrington the spectators started Booing. Loudly.


no he wasnt. carr was signed before the draft. are you saying his agent and all those lawyers around the signing were booing at the time.

Coach C.
11-03-2005, 06:23 PM
I remember Harrington being booed, but not Carr. When a new coach comes in and says I will turn DC into the QB he is suppose to be(Lucky said this) then we will see a different QB. Carr has certain intagibles that most QBs in this league dont have. The heart that he possesses is almost immeasurable, eventhough I think he could be more vocal and lead this team. I say pay the man not only for the abuse we have given him, but for what he will become with a functional O-Line and aggressive playcalling.

TEXANRED
11-03-2005, 06:28 PM
...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??

No that's not what he is saying. The chain is only as strong as your weakest link. Carr is not the weakest link.

Lets look at what Carr's job is. Read a D, throw the ball. O'Tae. Carr reads a D just fine, it's a blitz and he going to get sacked. Second its hard to throw when you are on your back.

I know what you are gonna say "When he does have time he still doesnt throw well." That's because he is just as suprised as the rest of us he has time. Kinda like Bradford being so supprised he is open he dropps the ball everytime.

TEXANRED
11-03-2005, 06:39 PM
no he wasnt. carr was signed before the draft. are you saying his agent and all those lawyers around the signing were booing at the time.

Okay, this is what I remember, Kipper or however you spell his name, was saying how great Harrington was and how stupid the Texans would be to pass on Harrington b/c he was more athletic with better accuracy where as Carr might have a gun for an arm but wasent as athletic and had that Bernie Kosar sideway throw.

I thought Carr had agreed to the terms of the contract before the draft but had not signed till after he was picked?

Also remember this was about the time when everyone was on the Organ banwaggon.

I just remember ESPN making a strong publicity push in Harrington's favor and when Carr was picked he got booed. Just like Elie got booed.

But again that is how I remember April of 2002.

the wonger need food
11-03-2005, 06:45 PM
We got jobbed big time with that 2002 draft class. The best player out of the whole draft was a friggin' safety (Ed Reed).

utahmark
11-03-2005, 06:57 PM
No that's not what he is saying. The chain is only as strong as your weakest link. Carr is not the weakest link.

Lets look at what Carr's job is. Read a D, throw the ball. O'Tae. Carr reads a D just fine, it's a blitz and he going to get sacked. Second its hard to throw when you are on your back.

I know what you are gonna say "When he does have time he still doesnt throw well." That's because he is just as suprised as the rest of us he has time. Kinda like Bradford being so supprised he is open he dropps the ball everytime.

wrong quote sry.

utahmark
11-03-2005, 07:00 PM
Okay, this is what I remember, Kipper or however you spell his name, was saying how great Harrington was and how stupid the Texans would be to pass on Harrington b/c he was more athletic with better accuracy where as Carr might have a gun for an arm but wasent as athletic and had that Bernie Kosar sideway throw.

I thought Carr had agreed to the terms of the contract before the draft but had not signed till after he was picked?

Also remember this was about the time when everyone was on the Organ banwaggon.

I just remember ESPN making a strong publicity push in Harrington's favor and when Carr was picked he got booed. Just like Elie got booed.

But again that is how I remember April of 2002.

im not 100% sure that he was already signed. i sure dont remember a lot of booing. and im sure he wasnt booed his first couple of years here. i didnt hear any booes untill the end of last year.

the wonger need food
11-03-2005, 07:05 PM
im not 100% sure that he was already signed. i sure dont remember a lot of booing. and im sure he wasnt booed his first couple of years here. i didnt hear any booes untill the end of last year.

The terms were worked out before the draft and he signed on the day he was drafted.

Anyone have a link for this year's salaries? The only site that I can find is USA Today those are not updated for 2005.

utahmark
11-03-2005, 07:08 PM
The terms were worked out before the draft and he signed on the day he was drafted.

Anyone have a link for this year's salaries? The only site that I can find is USA Today those are not updated for 2005.

go to hpf.com for our teams salries.

tsip
11-03-2005, 07:50 PM
No that's not what he is saying. The chain is only as strong as your weakest link. Carr is not the weakest link.

Lets look at what Carr's job is. Read a D, throw the ball. O'Tae. Carr reads a D just fine, it's a blitz and he going to get sacked. Second its hard to throw when you are on your back.

I know what you are gonna say "When he does have time he still doesnt throw well." That's because he is just as suprised as the rest of us he has time. Kinda like Bradford being so supprised he is open he dropps the ball everytime.

'..reads a D just fine...'
'Carr is not the weakest link.'

...you should preference personal statements like these with IMO

Kaiser Toro
11-03-2005, 10:12 PM
Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

I agree. But after "Absolutely" you will see - "as long as we renegotiate his contract and the expectations are set that the job is not his next year. We need to see how David holds up against professional competition for the benefit of the team and its subsequent direction."

That would be the type of answer a no poop guy like McNair would respect.

Just in case that one knows on this board - Carr is the highest paid player on this team. How is the return on investment to date?

eriadoc
11-03-2005, 10:39 PM
After 9 pages, this thread has gone almost nowhere, so I figured I'd add more junk to the junk pile :)

It is an absolute farce that after this long, we still don't know what we have in David Carr. It's ridiculous. Unfortunately, it's still true. Regardless what happens with David Carr, this franchise has to take a large portion of the blame for his early development, or lack thereof. His pass protection has been sorry for almost all of his tenure here. The rare string of games where it's been adequate, he's played pretty well for a young QB. He's never been given a team like the Steelers gave Roethlisberger, he's never been given a team like the Giants gvave Eli, or even the Colts gave Manning. The team has not improved in the offensive line, like Aikman's team did. If anything, this O-line has regressed, been shuffled around, and been so totally pathetic as to be the brunt of jokes on a national level.

I may be categorized as a Carr apologist; I don't know. The truth is, he hasn't been given a fair shot. 50 starts? You could give Manning, Brady, Montana, Unitas ... doesn't matter ... 50 starts behind this line with this offense as it has been for 50 starts and none of them would have done significantly better. So my real point that I continue to try and make is --

Instead of focusing on Carr (the symptom), how about we focus on fixing the root of the problem (the line, probably even moreso the coaching)? Instead of talking about drafting Leinart or VYoung or Reggie McNeil or some QB that can come in and compensate for our crappy line -- How about we just create an O-line that ANY quarterback can have a sufficient degree of success behind? Most other NFL teams manage to do so with people we've never even heard of - why can't we?

Our QB isn't the problem, folks. He may not be the answer, but he's surely not the problem.

Kaiser Toro
11-03-2005, 10:43 PM
After 9 pages, this thread has gone almost nowhere, so I figured I'd add more junk to the junk pile :)

It is an absolute farce that after this long, we still don't know what we have in David Carr. It's ridiculous. Unfortunately, it's still true. Regardless what happens with David Carr, this franchise has to take a large portion of the blame for his early development, or lack thereof. His pass protection has been sorry for almost all of his tenure here. The rare string of games where it's been adequate, he's played pretty well for a young QB. He's never been given a team like the Steelers gave Roethlisberger, he's never been given a team like the Giants gvave Eli, or even the Colts gave Manning. The team has not improved in the offensive line, like Aikman's team did. If anything, this O-line has regressed, been shuffled around, and been so totally pathetic as to be the brunt of jokes on a national level.

I may be categorized as a Carr apologist; I don't know. The truth is, he hasn't been given a fair shot. 50 starts? You could give Manning, Brady, Montana, Unitas ... doesn't matter ... 50 starts behind this line with this offense as it has been for 50 starts and none of them would have done significantly better. So my real point that I continue to try and make is --

Instead of focusing on Carr (the symptom), how about we focus on fixing the root of the problem (the line, probably even moreso the coaching)? Instead of talking about drafting Leinart or VYoung or Reggie McNeil or some QB that can come in and compensate for our crappy line -- How about we just create an O-line that ANY quarterback can have a sufficient degree of success behind? Most other NFL teams manage to do so with people we've never even heard of - why can't we?

Our QB isn't the problem, folks. He may not be the answer, but he's surely not the problem.

You have hit it on the head. Dump Carr's current contract and bring in an OLine.

Lucky
11-03-2005, 10:48 PM
I agree. But after "Absolutely" you will see - "as long as we renegotiate his contract and the expectations are set that the job is not his next year. We need to see how David holds up against professional competition for the benefit of the team and its subsequent direction."
So Coach Kaiser, you're saying that as long as Carr grabs a clipboard & takes a pay cut, you'd have no problem with David on the team?

Wrong answer. But as parting gifts we have this Houston Texans combination bottle opener/keychain & an autographed copy of Dom Caper's new book, "Our chief weapon is execution!... Execution and turnover ratio...Our two weapons are turnover ratio and execution... and ruthless efficiency! Our three weapons are execution, and turnover ratio, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!"

Kaiser Toro
11-03-2005, 10:51 PM
So Coach Kaiser, you're saying that as long as Carr grabs a clipboard & takes a pay cut, you'd have no problem with David on the team?

Wrong answer. But as parting gifts we have this Houston Texans combination bottle opener/keychain & an autographed copy of Dom Caper's new book, "Our chief weapon is execution!... Execution and turnover ratio...Our two weapons are turnover ratio and execution... and ruthless efficiency! Our three weapons are execution, and turnover ratio, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!"

Why are you hatin' on Coach Capers. You should be enjoying our first win. :)

Lucky
11-03-2005, 10:52 PM
What's so funny 'bout Peace, Love, & Execution?

TexHorns
11-03-2005, 11:20 PM
Can we change the Title to Wongers latest excuses.

You took the words right out of my mouth. This is just a way for people to avoid back-pedaling. Being over critical does not really give any insight to real solutions. There is a difference between fair critique and dogmatism. It is easy to hone in on one perspective and not look at the whole picture. The problems on this team are integrated and will take that approach to solve them. We already know that the core of this team is capable of producing wins, it happened last year, so we need to address the problems of what has changed and not changed between last years progress and this years downfalls.

Here's a few off the top of my head in no particular order:

Run Defense
Bradford is worse
Bad coverage opposite D-Rob
AJ has been hurt but he still dropped some important passes. I'm not too worried about him though.
Bad pass protection (should have been addressed this year)
TE
Hollings

This is strictly the view of TexHorns and does not necessarily reflect the views of any sane person

NFLforher
11-04-2005, 09:13 AM
no he wasnt. carr was signed before the draft. are you saying his agent and all those lawyers around the signing were booing at the time.


He's talking about the actual draft day.

NFLforher
11-04-2005, 09:16 AM
I agree. But after "Absolutely" you will see - "as long as we renegotiate his contract and the expectations are set that the job is not his next year. We need to see how David holds up against professional competition for the benefit of the team and its subsequent direction."

That would be the type of answer a no poop guy like McNair would respect.

Just in case that one knows on this board - Carr is the highest paid player on this team. How is the return on investment to date?


How about protecting the investment and giving him a chance to suceed?

Kaiser Toro
11-04-2005, 10:35 AM
How about protecting the investment and giving him a chance to suceed?

Chance to succed is synonymous with opportunty. He has 50+ starts to show improvement in may different facets of the game. Other than taking off and running with the ball I have seen no tangible or intangible improvement. That does not mean it can materialize. I, like many i would imagine, feel we should have seen more by now.

I do realize he has not had the best protection or weapons, but if you look at each position and attach a productivity per head measurement we are not getting the ROI from the QB position.

infantrycak
11-04-2005, 02:26 PM
Chance to succed is synonymous with opportunty. He has 50+ starts to show improvement in may different facets of the game. Other than taking off and running with the ball I have seen no tangible or intangible improvement. That does not mean it can materialize. I, like many i would imagine, feel we should have seen more by now.

I agree with you that the Texans need more return from their investment, but the above just doesn't seem fair at all. You can say chance to succeed is synonymous with opportunity but it begs the question whether he has had either. Prior to this year, which has to be regarded as a full team melt-down, he had shown progress each year across basically every statistical measure. In addition, he was showing improvement in intangibles such as not running out of bounds behind the LOS. After looking at each play in the past three games IMO there were only 1 or 2 plays where he demonstrated poor pocket awareness and a considerably more where he moved to assist the OL--that is an improvement from the past even if lost in the general team performance. Thru the 1st half of last season it looked like he was on the verge of a break-out year. Then something light-switched. Love to know what that was.

tsip
11-04-2005, 05:09 PM
"Thru the 1st half of last season it looked like he was on the verge of a break-out year. Then something light-switched. Love to know what that was."

IMO, this scenario defines the demise/fall of the Texans under Capers. Until this point, though a little rocky, the team had a winning record and everything seemed headed in the right direction. Then, almost over night, the entire team went 'south' into the nose dive we are in now. What happened? It's more than the 'cover 2'---we became an entirely different team under Capers. No fire. No fight. No hanging in there and even winning against the best teams like we did the first 2 years. If I were McNair, I would want an answer.:confused:

Honch Delgado
11-04-2005, 06:08 PM
Carr's GQ spread comes out this month. Remember to pick it up ladies.

MightyTExan
11-04-2005, 06:28 PM
Carr will never be anything above average until he is the team leader. Let's be real, he's getting sacked a lot because the OL does not want to play for him. What did Brees do after a suck 4-12 season? Called a team meeting and said "let's do this." Have we ever heard anything like that from Carr?

NFLforher
11-04-2005, 08:22 PM
Carr's GQ spread comes out this month. Remember to pick it up ladies.

Already have it. :)

It was done before the season when he had long hair. I like the shorter hair.

NFLforher
11-04-2005, 08:26 PM
Chance to succed is synonymous with opportunty. He has 50+ starts to show improvement in may different facets of the game. Other than taking off and running with the ball I have seen no tangible or intangible improvement. That does not mean it can materialize. I, like many i would imagine, feel we should have seen more by now.

I do realize he has not had the best protection or weapons, but if you look at each position and attach a productivity per head measurement we are not getting the ROI from the QB position.


I guess you haven't watched any of the games then. Sorry.

Lucky
11-05-2005, 09:17 AM
No matter how we feel about Carr, we can still enjoy some Python. :)

Here's the hitch in Kaiser's plan as the Texans' new coach: Carr will already have his extension in his back pocket before Kaiser comes on board. If Kaiser tells McNair that a new QB needs to come in and challenge Carr, he won't get the gig. Kaiser either agrees that Carr is his QB, or he looks elsewhere for a job. I hear the Saskatewan Roughriders are looking for a new assistant to the assistant special teams coach. Bring a heavy coat, those Canadian summers are brutal.

Do you really want to see Tony Banks in at QB on this team, right now? What did Tony do to you to wish that upon him? If there's one guy on the Texans who doesn't want to see Carr pulled or go down, it's Tony Banks. Banks has zero mobility and would be a sitting duck (I could use a duck smilie here) for the rush the Texans line allows. Throw out the bootlegs & the rollouts, Banks can't run those plays. And if you don't think David Carr is an accurate passer, then Banks is certainly not your man. His completion percentage is about 3% lower, and he can't throw a pass on the move at all. The best way for Tony to help this team is by keeping a firm grasp on that clipboard.

nunusguy
11-05-2005, 09:43 AM
IMO, this scenario defines the demise/fall of the Texans under Capers. Until this point, though a little rocky, the team had a winning record and everything seemed headed in the right direction. Then, almost over night, the entire team went 'south' into the nose dive we are in now. What happened? It's more than the 'cover 2'---we became an entirely different team under Capers. No fire. No fight.
Dang TSIP, you had me going because next to defining the meaning of Life,
my most urgent questions surround the mystery of what happened to the Texans ? But to say at some point last season the team went south doesn't answer the question of what parameter changed, or what was new or what factor was suddenly removed.
It wasn't Capers because he's been a constant, he's been here since the teams inception well before 2002 when they first strepped on the field, unless you want to argue it was the cumulative effect of his presence over those years ? But that's still not a definitive explanation of what factor(s) caused the Texans rapid and dramatic decline in on field performance ?

Vinny
11-05-2005, 10:23 AM
No matter how we feel about Carr, we can still enjoy some Python. :)

Here's the hitch in Kaiser's plan as the Texans' new coach: Carr will already have his extension in his back pocket before Kaiser comes on board. If Kaiser tells McNair that a new QB needs to come in and challenge Carr, he won't get the gig.If Bob McNair really operates like this (dictates to the new regime who the starting players are) he is a fool, a horrible Owner and a total embarrassment to his fan base. This problem with naming the "face of the Franchise" before he produces like a Franchise player is that if the guy you 'hope' lives up to his hype doesn't, you just become a mediocre franchise.....and that is what we are right now. Heck, mediocre is middle of the pack, that would be an improvment.

beerlover
11-05-2005, 10:44 AM
If Bob McNair really operates like this (dictates to the new regime who the starting players are) he is a fool, a horrible Owner and a total embarrassment to his fan base. This problem with naming the "face of the Franchise" before he produces like a Franchise player is that if the guy you 'hope' lives up to his hype doesn't, you just become a mediocre franchise.....and that is what we are right now. Heck, mediocre is middle of the pack, that would be an improvment.

there is nothing embarrassing or horrible about Texans owner Bob McNair, he is a classy, approachable & successful buisness man who brought Pro Football back to Houston.

the real problem is the Franchise Player does not have enough support, the system created has fallen apart because of the football side of operations. who is the QB coach now that Palmer has been fired? are they qualified? I'll go out on a limb here and say there are probably better canidates available, but now is the time or place, for that we'll just have to suck it up and endure the pain until the off season before meaningfull changes can be made, no pain no gain :homer:

Vinny
11-05-2005, 10:52 AM
It's tough to debate a topic when fans don't understand what was typed. Look up the definition of "if" sometime would ya'? That was a hypothetical that Lucky threw down, and I commented on it with another if.

Also, it's amazing how close you follow the team but have no clue to who the coaches are. Palmer was the OC, not the QB coach. Greg Roman (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coaches_detail.php?PRKey=63) has been our QB coach all year...before and after the Palmer firing.

Kaiser Toro
11-05-2005, 11:07 AM
No matter how we feel about Carr, we can still enjoy some Python. :)

Here's the hitch in Kaiser's plan as the Texans' new coach: Carr will already have his extension in his back pocket before Kaiser comes on board. If Kaiser tells McNair that a new QB needs to come in and challenge Carr, he won't get the gig. Kaiser either agrees that Carr is his QB, or he looks elsewhere for a job. I hear the Saskatewan Roughriders are looking for a new assistant to the assistant special teams coach. Bring a heavy coat, those Canadian summers are brutal.

Do you really want to see Tony Banks in at QB on this team, right now? What did Tony do to you to wish that upon him? If there's one guy on the Texans who doesn't want to see Carr pulled or go down, it's Tony Banks. Banks has zero mobility and would be a sitting duck (I could use a duck smilie here) for the rush the Texans line allows. Throw out the bootlegs & the rollouts, Banks can't run those plays. And if you don't think David Carr is an accurate passer, then Banks is certainly not you man. His completion percentage is about 3% lower, and he can't throw a pass on the move at all. The best way for Tony to help this team is by keeping a firm grasp on that clipboard.

Lucky I just do not think you read my posts and then you add your own spin and flavor on how you interpret my opinions. I can say without equivocation that I have never mentioned Benching David Carr for Tony Banks. My thing with Carr has always been his contract.

Take a look at my posts and I believe you will see consistency on this topic. Outside of DC's contract I am pretty optimistic expceptwhen it comes to our HC and GM, and I would say that stern eye wavers from time to time.

And I do believe that if MCNair needs to look for a new HC he will have to hire a big name and that coach will have the leverage in those negotiations. With so many positions open at the end of the season and Houston wil not tolerate a bad product for many more years.

beerlover
11-05-2005, 11:12 AM
It's tough to debate a topic when fans don't understand what was typed. Look up the definition of "if" sometime would ya'? That was a hypothetical that Lucky threw down, and I commented on it with another if.

Also, it's amazing how close you follow the team but have no clue to who the coaches are. Palmer was the OC, not the QB coach. Greg Roman (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coaches_detail.php?PRKey=63) has been our QB coach all year...before and after the Palmer firing.

first, I don't think its neccessary to be calling out the owner in this situation, but I could wrong.

second, I thought that was Palmer's calling card that he had a track record of developing young QB's?

third, how come your not calling for Greg Romans head since he's been the "QB coach all year" thats pretty amazing to me.

Vinny
11-05-2005, 11:16 AM
first, I don't think its neccessary to be calling out the owner in this situation, but I could wrong.

second, I thought that was Palmer's calling card that he had a track record of developing young QB's?

third, how come your not calling for Greg Romans head since he's been the "QB coach all year" thats pretty amazing to me.*sigh*

I'm not calling out the owner. I can't believe you don't grasp this. I will explain slowly.....Lucky threw out a hypothetical situation. I said that IF McNair operates like this it would be pathetic in my mind. Read that over and over...5 times perhaps.

Why should I call for the individual coaches heads when I am clearly calling for a new staff? If you put 2+2 together you will see that I am....but didn't bother to spell it out.

Geez people.

beerlover
11-05-2005, 11:25 AM
*sigh*

I'm not calling out the owner. I can't believe you don't grasp this. I will explain slowly.....Lucky threw out a hypothetical situation. I said that IF McNair operates like this it would be pathetic in my mind. Read that over and over...5 times perhaps.

Why should I call for the individual coaches heads when I am clearly calling for a new staff? If you put 2+2 together you will see that I am....but didn't bother to spell it out.

Geez people.

OK then, I got it. sometimes I don't read thru the whole threads I just respond when there is a post that seems out of line, I should know better from you, can you forgive me :rolleyes:

I don't have any problem with the Texans keeping a keen eye open for another QB to develop, as a matter of fact I would like to see a young strong arm physical body QB drafted this year like Grambling Eugene Bruce. its only a matter of time until Carr will be physically unable to play. But at least lets change the coaching and developmental phases of the organization.

nunusguy
11-05-2005, 11:49 AM
I believe in players earning their spot through competition. I don't have any faith in pre-determined starting positions given out because of draft status. Any coach who does this will fail.
Except when it came to your boy Jason Babin last year. You were one of those who passionately defended the coaches decision to start him as a rookie while many of us criticised that same decision to just "hand" him the position. Its no problem though, we're all guilty of a little inconsistancy from time to time (I bit my tongue before I said hypocrisy). I believe your support for Babin has moderated somewhat since then, just as my criticism has.

Vinny
11-05-2005, 12:01 PM
Except when it came to your boy Jason Babin last year. You were one of those who passionately defended the coaches decision to start him as a rookie while many of us criticised that same decision to just "hand" him the position. Its no problem though, we're all guilty of a little inconsistancy from time to time (I bit my tongue before I said hypocrisy). I believe your support for Babin has moderated somewhat since then, just as my criticism has.I'm not inconsistent. If you notice I support all the players at first. I supported Cassserly at first...I supported Dom Capers at first. Heck, I supported David Carr at first. I will continue to support all of our team at first until I think they can't play or see otherwise. I will support our players and give the benefit of the doubt and will not judge them too early based on how I think the draft should have gone.

Lucky
11-05-2005, 02:47 PM
Lucky I just do not think you read my posts and then you add your own spin and flavor on how you interpret my opinions. I can say without equivocation that I have never mentioned Benching David Carr for Tony Banks. My thing with Carr has always been his contract.
I know you have not pushed for Banks at QB. I was responding to Honeymoon who has discussed both your post and his opinion of giving Banks a shot. I do read your posts, I promise. It was just a case of trying to put too much into one post before I had to go to work.