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View Full Version : Carr Haters, Lets Make a deal


BuffSoldier
10-23-2005, 10:26 PM
Okay, Im tired of reading and posting about DC's ability too make plays or not to make plays. I just think that the Carr hater and Carr backers should come to a truce not to talk about Carr until we get AJ back and the o-line starts to protect, or until next season when we make some much needed upgrades to the offense such as a real OL, a TE, and maybe another WR.

powda
10-24-2005, 12:01 AM
or maybe just try watching the game tape with an entirely objective attitude. you might be surprised what ya find...

Vinny
10-24-2005, 12:03 AM
The QB touches the ball on every play...he's just going to be talked about....its the most important position and he is our most important draft pick as he gets paid 60 million dollars....like it or not he gets the most interest...good and bad. I thought he was just awful today.

powda
10-24-2005, 12:08 AM
tuesday vinny.

Vinny
10-24-2005, 12:10 AM
Spin it away...but he was awful. He killed the one drive when he throws a routine pass ten yards in front of Gaffney...he threw the ball away on the two point conversion. He sacked himself on the first drive while Breunner was wide open....my gosh....he was awful.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 01:39 AM
When he gets protection he is awful. The Gaffney pass in the dirt killing a drive...the locking on to Bradford throwing an easy INT as you see everybody flowing to the spot Carr is about to throw to...the 2 point conversion thrown in the stands....geesh

WildBlackBear32
10-26-2005, 01:41 AM
He's trigger happy. If we even ATTEMPT to shore up the line next year, perhaps he will gain some confidence back in his teammates and he wont need to overthink/overdo on every play.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 01:56 AM
The problem with paying a guy 60 million dollars is he needs to be productive. How long do we wait to see if he ever gets it? He keeps us from signing other good players due to him crowding a large part of the salary cap. He has more starts than Bulger, Pennington and Brees...We can't wait another 50 starts for him to come up to speed.

WildBlackBear32
10-26-2005, 02:03 AM
The problem with paying a guy 60 million dollars is he needs to be productive. How long do we wait to see if he ever gets it? He keeps us from signing other good players due to him crowding a large part of the salary cap. He has more starts than Bulger, Pennington and Brees...We can't wait another 50 starts for him to come up to speed.

Football's a team game though. He does need to be productive, but he also needs some productive teammates in the process. When you sign the #1 pick, you are signing on potential, not what they have done like big money free agents. A #1 pick cant reach his potential when you dont let him use that potential in the playcalling and the execution of plays. I do think this year has been a regression from last year, but the guy has been KNOCKED around from the gate. He's a deer in the headlights.

Napa Auto Parts
10-26-2005, 02:32 AM
i Agree 3 1/2 years of a wasted pick so far is not enough to prove that david is not the greatest ever i think we should rework his contract and give him peyton manning money he deserves it.:rofl: i mean so what if he cant read a defense so what if he audibles a 2-20 in to a run so what if the only people he can hit in the numbers are opposing Db's its not davids fault its the o-line's fault .:yahoo:

GP
10-26-2005, 09:52 AM
He was pretty bad this past Sunday.

The commentators showed replays, and he had at least 80% of his pass plays with a clear pocket and a clear throwing lane established by the line.

And he tosses a 3rd down pass to Gaffney into the dirt. Forget the accuracy of the throw...did you see it wobbling and with no zip on it? Yikes.

He's a bust. Period.

Hanging onto Carr was the last shred of hope Texans fans had of thinking that maybe its just the o line's fault and we can get a new o line and we'll be good to go.

IMO, we need a new o line and a new QB. Carr looks like a QB: The good hair, the good looks, shining smile and great personality and character...but so does Capers (well...minus the good hair and great personality) and look where it's taken us.

I see a guy like Ragone go overseas and work his rear off week in and week out, put up consistent numbers against albeit average talent...but the guy just seemingly plays with more passion on every down than Carr.

If the Texans have kept Ragone this long, I'd like to think they see something that the Carr lovers don't. Shoot, give him a try

mean mark8
10-26-2005, 10:18 AM
I think everyone can agree, Carr is not playing well, whether due to poor play-calling, poor pass protection, or just poor performance on his part. I think the guy needs a break and part of that break is not playing for awhile. His confidence is shot and even he admits it. Whether you want to say I'm taking quotes out of context or not, he has said it's easy to start thinking "hear it goes again" and that he has to be thinking he only has 2 seconds to throw the ball even when he has more time. John McClain, in the Chronicle says it's not all Carr's fault but then says he is shell-shocked and Payton Manning would be too. I think he needs to be pulled for his own protection before the damage becomes permanent. Maybe after we lose to the Browns, it will be easier for the coaches to do because the season will be over at that point. With our starting QB only being able to muster 6 net yards passing for a game, we have to have a change; whether it's Carr's fault or not. Will Ragone be better? We won't know until we give him a shot but you can't get much worse than 6 yards for an entire game.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2005, 10:25 AM
:brickwall It seems that the Texans will try everything to fix the offense but one thing . Its like your TV goes out and you check everything but the plug cause you assume its plugged in . After hours of wasted time your wife calls the TV repair guy and he charges 100 $ to plug it in .

eriadoc
10-26-2005, 10:33 AM
The problem with watching your Tivo and trying to make rational determinations from it is you can't see what's going on downfield. I sit in section 323, right between the goal posts. I watch all the plays develop and see what's going on downfield. Usually I focus on the receivers for the play, then watch the backfield on the jumboptron replay. There were no open receivers for the majority of the game. There was one play where Carr was sacked in which he pumped and had to pull it back because his lane closed off. There was someone open on that play. It's easier for me to point out the plays where a receiver was open than the other way around.

Everyone on here will point to the play where he missed Gaffney in the flat or the 2-pt conversion. That's two plays. I can point to many more plays where no one was open, people missed assignments, etc. That's not to say Carr played well - he didn't. And he makes some stupid mistakes that frustrate the heck out of me. I find it funny, however, when Carr breaks free from a defender's grasp on a roll-out and scrambles for a first down and the crowd cheers like mad. Then later, the EXACT same play, Carr gets sacked trying to do the same thing and people want to hang him. Look folks, you can't have it both ways. Carr is at least trying to make something happen, even if it's on his own two legs. He should give up on those plays, but then you'd all be complaining about that.

Right now, teams can pick their poison in how to beat us - blitz and kill our porous O-line, or send 4 and drop 7. No receivers can get open and the line still can't protect Carr that long. Remember the Pitt game, when Roethlisberger shuffled around in the backfield for a good 8 seconds before launching one downfield to Ced Wilson? Same thing with McNair ona few plays in the Titans game. Carr never has that luxury. Even if the other team only sends 4, they'll get to him fairly quickly. If they blitz, there's no chance. It's just that on the plays where they send four, people on here start saying "Carr had enough time to throw!!" ... basic math - 7 in the secondary vs. our 3 (maybe 4) receivers.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 10:52 AM
Players get discussed...especially the ones who touch the ball every snap. I kinda expect a NFL QB to make a few plays....actually more than a few. People have no problem bashing the big ugly guys...but talk poorly about the pretty boy and the fans fall apart. If Carr was some ugly mule-faced 5th round pick people would be running him out of town by now based on his play.

NativeJPR
10-26-2005, 11:22 AM
until we get a coaching staff that will take this team by the throat and make them play collectively up to their potential and penalize each and every one of them for UNDERACHEIVING then we will continue to see sub-par performances on Sundays. Quit making excuses these guys are all in the NFL and need to start playing like they have a SET. This coaching staff can't seem to get anything on a winning trac and I say its TIME FOR A CHANGE.........NOW:challenge :texflag:

sulli60
10-26-2005, 11:37 AM
Carr needs to sit for his own good. He's just not a good mix with our O-Line. We need to see if someone elses pocket presence will make a difference. Eluding the passrush ala Ben Roethlisberger is taking subtle steps to one side or the other and keeping your eye downfield.

If Carr doesn't sit then Bradford needs to sit. He's a speedster and obviously the routes he's best at running are not going to work. Armstrong needs to start a game or two.

wags
10-26-2005, 11:48 AM
Why does everyone always bring up Carr's looks? The dude ain't that good looking.

Double Barrel
10-26-2005, 12:57 PM
Nice. A football message board that is being requested to refrain from talking about the QB. :um: Whatever.

For whatever reason(s), DC looked horrible on Sunday. He hasn't really looked good for any length of time (ie. entire game) this season.

The debate about his talent (or lack thereof) vs. his shell-shocked state-of-mind can rage on...

But the fact of the matter is that he's not playing very well.

And there is one way to find out: Start Tony Banks for a game. Not to disrespect Carr, but let's just see how the team responds to another QB, and let's see how another QB can deal with this team.

If TB is sacked 7 times a game, and the results are the same as DC, then we know for certain.

But what if Banks wins a game? And/or has a great game?

What do we have to lose? Another game?

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2005, 01:17 PM
I would like to believe that Carr is worth every penny. I would like to believe that he has turned in some good performances over the last 3.5 years, but there are not many. At the same time I see so many of his cohorts willing their team to wins and show improvement almost weekly.

When I turn on the TV or get in my seat I do not day dream of what DC may bring to the table. I think of an big play by Dunta, a return by Mathis or a 100 yeard game by DD. Carr does not get the fan in me excited.

As for last week, I think he did a great job of handing the ball off to DD. 3.5 years and X millions of dollars later and all I can find good about this guy is that he can hand off and roll out to his right.

Forget cutting the hair, cut a new contract.

rafterticket
10-26-2005, 01:27 PM
So true. I don't claim to be a QB guru, but at least I'm not dumb enough to believe that he isn't trying to do everything he can out there to help this team win. Houston doesn't deserve a QB like him, especially when he has been nothing but a man by not saying this coaching staff and team blows.

That's one of the truest things I've read on these boards about his character.

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2005, 01:35 PM
So true. I don't claim to be a QB guru, but at least I'm not dumb enough to believe that he isn't trying to do everything he can out there to help this team win. Houston doesn't deserve a QB like him, especially when he has been nothing but a man by not saying this coaching staff and team blows.

Well at least he has earned his inflated contract in some respect.

NativeJPR
10-26-2005, 01:35 PM
You ever watch "Worlds Strongest Man" competition?........WHY can't McNair go get a couple of those guys to put on the line?

thegr8fan
10-26-2005, 01:54 PM
But what if Banks wins a game? And/or has a great game?
and THERE is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

The reason the current coaching staff can't put another QB in and bench Carr, even though he rightfully deserves to be benched, is that IF the other QB wins the game, for whatever reason, then Capers and Company look even more IDI-OTIC than they currently do for being the 'Carr is the man' touters through the first 6 games of this season. Imagine the 'egg on their face' if another QB other than thier exalted first pick in Rd 1, superstar quality QB Carr, were to actually take control to this team and WIN a game.

The embarrassment would be the final humiliation and ultimate objectivity to how badly coached and assessed the Texans Coach's really are.

as for your deal, please tell me your kidding or being sarcastic and I just missed it. :texflag:

I'll make you a deal. I won't talk about Carr and what an embarrassment of a QB he is if he sits on the bench for an entire game. I won't even come on the boards and talk about him in the sense of how glad I am he is actually FINALLY getting the starting position he truly deserves, BENCH WARMER #1. When Carr sits out an entire game I won't comment on him in any way until he comes on the field and plays again. How's that for a deal?

Double Barrel
10-26-2005, 02:07 PM
and THERE is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

The reason the current coaching staff can't put another QB in and bench Carr, even though he rightfully deserves to be benched, is that IF the other QB wins the game, for whatever reason, then Capers and Company look even more IDI-OTIC than they currently do for being the 'Carr is the man' touters through the first 6 games of this season. Imagine the 'egg on their face' if another QB other than thier exalted first pick in Rd 1, superstar quality QB Carr, were to actually take control to this team and WIN a game.

The embarrassment would be the final humiliation and ultimate objectivity to how badly coached and assessed the Texans Coach's really are.

gr8, this is pretty much my conclusion, as well. I'm starting to wonder if this regime is concerned about winning games right now, as crazy as that sounds. It seems more like they are trying to cover their rears more than anything.

Another aspect of starting TB this game: if he's successful and can lead this current group of players to victory, where does that leave the decision to re-sign DC to the $8 million deal? I'm sure they don't want a QB-controversey, but maybe that's what we need to do in order to shake things up a bit.

Something needs to be done, just to see what happens. Our current course of action continually leads us to losing conclusions.


as for your deal, please tell me your kidding or being sarcastic and I just missed it. :texflag:

I'll make you a deal. I won't talk about Carr and what an embarrassment of a QB he is if he sits on the bench for an entire game. I won't even come on the boards and talk about him in the sense of how glad I am he is actually FINALLY getting the starting position he truly deserves, BENCH WARMER #1. When Carr sits out an entire game I won't comment on him in any way until he comes on the field and plays again. How's that for a deal?

I think the guy is/was serious about his request. idonno:

Not that we plan on honoring it or anything. Jeesh, as Vinny mentioned, the QB touches the ball every offensive play. Of course he's going to be the topic of conversation in a football forum! :hmmm:

rmartin65
10-26-2005, 02:21 PM
Carr cant really be judged until there is a decent line ahead of him.

infantrycak
10-26-2005, 02:26 PM
and THERE is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

The reason the current coaching staff can't put another QB in and bench Carr, even though he rightfully deserves to be benched, is that IF the other QB wins the game, for whatever reason, then Capers and Company look even more IDI-OTIC than they currently do for being the 'Carr is the man' touters through the first 6 games of this season. Imagine the 'egg on their face' if another QB other than thier exalted first pick in Rd 1, superstar quality QB Carr, were to actually take control to this team and WIN a game.

The embarrassment would be the final humiliation and ultimate objectivity to how badly coached and assessed the Texans Coach's really are.

I don't believe this for an instant. Casserly and Capers' jobs don't hang on the question of whether Carr was a good pick at this point. They hang on winning games. Now they may be absolutely wrong, but IMO they really believe starting Carr gives them the best chance of winning. If they honestly believe Ragone or Banks would give them a better chance and are not starting them just to protect the image of their draft pick, they truly are some of the stupidest people around. As much as I want both gone at the end of the season, I don't think they are that dumb.

Now if you want a conspiracy theory, fear that Banks or Ragone might come in and stir up a QB controversy by playing well in scrub time at the end of a blow-out may very well be why the coaches keep trotting Carr out there to add on a few more hits when they have no chance of coming back.

Double Barrel
10-26-2005, 02:35 PM
But infantrycak, conspiracy theories aside, isn't there a point where Carr is just taking too much of a beating? Even for practical reasons (ie. keeping Carr from getting seriously injured and/or losing his reflexive skills), it seems that a change of pace might be in order.

I'm not advocating Banks (or even Ragone) as QBs of the future. My concern is that they might truly hurt DC for the long-term by continuing to let him get creamed multiple times per game. The human body (and mind) can only take so much before it reaches a point-of-no-return. This, of course, is pure speculation on my part, but I really can't see DC taking 5-6 years of 50+ sack seasons and being an elite QB down the road.

As far as Coach Capers not being that dumb...I'm not going to say he's stupid or any such nonsense, but there have to be concerns that he's making bad decisions as a head coach. We could start another thread on that specific topic, so I won't go much into it here.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 02:36 PM
Now if you want a conspiracy theory, fear that Banks or Ragone might come in and stir up a QB controversy by playing well in scrub time at the end of a blow-out may very well be why the coaches keep trotting Carr out there to add on a few more hits when they have no chance of coming back.I'd consider that equally foolhardy....and it's not out of the question with our staff. I have never seen a NFL team operate like ours has.

infantrycak
10-26-2005, 02:42 PM
But infantrycak, conspiracy theories aside, isn't there a point where Carr is just taking too much of a beating? Even for practical reasons (ie. keeping Carr from getting seriously injured and/or losing his reflexive skills), it seems that a change of pace might be in order.

That is honestly a concern, particularly if you are McNair and have already decided Carr is your guy. On the other hand, I think a decision like that has to be made either with the QB or as a public statement or you damage the QB's confidence and the fans (if they have any left). IMO to bench Carr for his own good McNair would need to go to Carr and say you will be here next year, they won't, I don't want to hurt, please peacefully sit and let these other guys take the hits for the rest of the year and here is the bonus for your extension. Don't see it happening. If you are McNair and haven't decided to keep him, you need to keep seeing him play to make the decision. If you aren't going to keep him, you leave it to the coaches to see who they think best gives the chance to win--so far they think Carr does.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 02:52 PM
If you aren't going to keep him, you leave it to the coaches to see who they think best gives the chance to win--so far they think Carr does.Buffalo thought Losman gave them their best chance to win too...until he stunk it up. They were smart enough to change quarterbacks and give him some competition. Losman now knows he can't play unless he plays well. Carr doesn't know this feeling.

Bigdog
10-26-2005, 02:57 PM
Anyone for getting Troy back?...lol Anyway carr needs to go back to football 101 I think if he had the O-line he could turn out to be a great QB.
But it's all in the way you look at it could of should of etc...Just my :twocents: worth

GP
10-26-2005, 03:02 PM
Some of the more recent foundations of thought for this argument are pure speculation:

(1) Is McNair telling coaches/management that Carr ABSOLUTELY must play? Nobody KNOWS this. Yet it's thrown out as a possibly "scenario."

(2) Capers & Co. DON'T want to bench Carr and start Banks/Ragone because a win by another QB would make the Carr draft pick look bad on Capers/Casserly. Pure speculation.

Why this is such a heated argument is beyond me, and according to some posters it could possibly be "beyond me" because I don't know much about football :rolleyes: as they like to state when someone disagrees with them.

Fact: Carr as QB has not won a reg season game since before week 17 last year.

Fact: We have two more QBs on our roster, one of which (Banks) has proven he can win a few games. The other (Ragone) held a clipboard all season except for the Jax game, and then he gets some reps in Europe and wins the MVP.

Speculation: Bench Carr for a half, or the whole game. Give our other guys a shot. Claim Carr got injured and THAT'S what's wrong with him...he just needs rest and his condition is day-to-day, meaning until next season rolls around and we build this ultimate o line that will solve the team's problems.

Carr is the guy whether you like it or not. He always has been and he always will be until he really gets injured or until he goes on strike or has a bad hair day or something.

Bigdog
10-26-2005, 03:07 PM
Hey dont get me wrong i'm all for Carr. But mostly I would like to see some wins as we all would.

Lucky
10-26-2005, 03:13 PM
...IMO to bench Carr for his own good McNair would need to go to Carr and say you will be here next year, they won't, I don't want to hurt, please peacefully sit and let these other guys take the hits for the rest of the year and here is the bonus for your extension. Don't see it happening. If you are McNair and haven't decided to keep him, you need to keep seeing him play to make the decision... I agree with you..except for that last sentence. What is Carr going to do from this point on in the season that will enable you to make that decision. The Texans can't run a conventional NFL offense, right now. Last Sunday, Carr either escaped the rush or was sacked on half of the teams 18 passing plays. They can't go into a game and plan to throw 30-32 times a games, like normal NFL teams do. There's nothing to learn from this.

Like it or not, Carr will go down at some point this season. He's not bionic. So we will see Banks. And Tony will go down. Then we'll see Ragone. Every Texan QB will get the opportunity to play behind this line before it's all said and done. I hope they've got Preston Parson's phone # handy.

ArlingtonTexan
10-26-2005, 03:22 PM
Please...Losman is completely overrated. They wanted to see what he could do as a starter, not that they could win or not.

When a team sees what a can do at QB they are primarily concerned with does the team win or not win. No matter how much they trot them out, coaches don't give a hoot about passer ratings, completion percentage, etc.

It is all about winning.

ArlingtonTexan
10-26-2005, 04:36 PM
3 questions.
1-how much ar we paying out o-line?

2-is it too much of a problem to ask them to block with what we are paying them, and how long should we wait to see if they step up?

3-don't Bulger, Pennington, and Brees have coaches 100 times better than Capers and Co.?

Just curious. I mean...we don't know for sure what we have with Carr. He's never developed to what we want because the owner never stood up and said to the GM or Capers, "Don't be stupid. Hire and draft some good o-lineman to protect this guy to see if he is a bust or not." I don't know about you, but it seems rather reasonable to me.

This statement alones tells us a ton about the organization. Most Qbs get 25-30 starts and in the case of high draft choices maybe 35-40 to show that they have it or not. 50 starts into a QBs career you need to know what he is. The fact this organization has not put Carr in position to really find out is shameful.

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2005, 04:41 PM
3 questions.
1-how much ar we paying out o-line?

2-is it too much of a problem to ask them to block with what we are paying them, and how long should we wait to see if they step up?

3-don't Bulger, Pennington, and Brees have coaches 100 times better than Capers and Co.?

Just curious. I mean...we don't know for sure what we have with Carr. He's never developed to what we want because the owner never stood up and said to the GM or Capers, " Hire and draft some good o-lineman to protect this guy to see if he is a bust or not." I don't know about you, but it seems rather reasonable to me.

Your points are valid, but one does not waste a 1st pick in the draft unless you know what you are going to get out of him. I honestly cannot believe after 3.5 years we are saying "we don't know for sure what we have with Carr." It is an indictment of Carr, Casserly and Capers.

yaboycm
10-26-2005, 04:46 PM
and THERE is the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

The reason the current coaching staff can't put another QB in and bench Carr, even though he rightfully deserves to be benched, is that IF the other QB wins the game, for whatever reason, then Capers and Company look even more IDI-OTIC than they currently do for being the 'Carr is the man' touters through the first 6 games of this season. Imagine the 'egg on their face' if another QB other than thier exalted first pick in Rd 1, superstar quality QB Carr, were to actually take control to this team and WIN a game.

The embarrassment would be the final humiliation and ultimate objectivity to how badly coached and assessed the Texans Coach's really are.

as for your deal, please tell me your kidding or being sarcastic and I just missed it. :texflag:

I'll make you a deal. I won't talk about Carr and what an embarrassment of a QB he is if he sits on the bench for an entire game. I won't even come on the boards and talk about him in the sense of how glad I am he is actually FINALLY getting the starting position he truly deserves, BENCH WARMER #1. When Carr sits out an entire game I won't comment on him in any way until he comes on the field and plays again. How's that for a deal?

Good point. Never thought about. And they will resign him because they
won't be men and admit to themsleves that they made a bad pick, putting this team deeper in a hole.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2005, 05:08 PM
:texflag: big tex why do have to cut folks down ?
Carr is the Golden child for the worst team in the NFL . Once again right now he's about a 4 as a NFL QB . If it were anyone else they would have been benched but Davy is untouchable ... Sorry fellas it'll take a pulled hammy before Carr comes out .
It reminds me of a Little League dad who won't pull his son from pitching just cause he's only walked 10 batters . Its not his fault its the Umps ... he'll get it just wait .

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2005, 05:35 PM
:tv: The bat is part of the arm and the black is not the plate .

infantrycak
10-26-2005, 06:17 PM
I agree with you..except for that last sentence. What is Carr going to do from this point on in the season that will enable you to make that decision. The Texans can't run a conventional NFL offense, right now. Last Sunday, Carr either escaped the rush or was sacked on half of the teams 18 passing plays. They can't go into a game and plan to throw 30-32 times a games, like normal NFL teams do. There's nothing to learn from this.

As unconventional and totally outside the norm of NFL operations/unrealistic as this is, if I was McNair and was still unsure about Carr, I would be very tempted (if in the last 3 year I had formed an impression he was reasonably bright--something we just will never know) to let Carr develop his own game plan. Instead of proving whether Banks can work better in Capers/Pendries horribly coached/designed/inspired offense (since we know they are gone anyway), let Carr attempt to run the O he wants. We'll find out if he is scared, conservative, can inspire the O, etc. Won't ever happen, but then again, I didn't anticipate a 7-9 team looking this freakin' bad and this seems to server more of a purpose to me than putting in Banks.

infantrycak
10-26-2005, 06:20 PM
This statement alones tells us a ton about the organization. Most Qbs get 25-30 starts and in the case of high draft choices maybe 35-40 to show that they have it or not. 50 starts into a QBs career you need to know what he is. The fact this organization has not put Carr in position to really find out is shameful.

I tend to be much more in line with you on what Carr can be, maybe a little more optimistic, but this is the absolute truth. The one thing that can be absolutely said is this has been a pathetic attempt to develop a #1 pick QB and there is no way in Hades he has shown his full potential, however high or low it is.

Vinny
10-26-2005, 06:21 PM
Funny how people can turn on others so quickly?
Perception and Reality are two different things Vinny?Tell me "Hulk", exactly who have I turned on? I've been talking football long before you came along. Carr is a wonderful person and has a wonderful family but that doesn't mean I have to like his game. I just talk about the players playing some football. I never talk about Carr being a bad guy or doing dumb things outside of the football field. You guys need to get a grip with you trying to make me out to be a bad guy just because I don't like his play. You may not like what you hear but I am giving my honest take.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2005, 06:48 PM
:texflag: I believe the people who want change are more interested in the team and the play of said team. The pro Carr folks are way to personal with their feelings . Like Vinny said Carr's a great guy but that does'nt mean he gets a free pass . Aaron Glen was a great guy and look at him .

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2005, 07:44 PM
As unconventional and totally outside the norm of NFL operations/unrealistic as this is, if I was McNair and was still unsure about Carr, I would be very tempted (if in the last 3 year I had formed an impression he was reasonably bright--something we just will never know) to let Carr develop his own game plan. Instead of proving whether Banks can work better in Capers/Pendries horribly coached/designed/inspired offense (since we know they are gone anyway), let Carr attempt to run the O he wants. We'll find out if he is scared, conservative, can inspire the O, etc. Won't ever happen, but then again, I didn't anticipate a 7-9 team looking this freakin' bad and this seems to server more of a purpose to me than putting in Banks.

I like it.

NFLforher
10-26-2005, 09:41 PM
When he gets protection he is awful. The Gaffney pass in the dirt killing a drive...the locking on to Bradford throwing an easy INT as you see everybody flowing to the spot Carr is about to throw to...the 2 point conversion thrown in the stands....geesh

How often does he get protection? How many times has he been slammed into the dirt/turf?

I would think that, at this point, he expects to get slammed every time and acts accordingly.

How many weapons does he have?

The QB can't do it all by himself. Give him consistant protection and some weapons and then we'll listen to the Carr critics.

NFLforher
10-26-2005, 09:43 PM
The problem with paying a guy 60 million dollars is he needs to be productive. How long do we wait to see if he ever gets it? He keeps us from signing other good players due to him crowding a large part of the salary cap. He has more starts than Bulger, Pennington and Brees...We can't wait another 50 starts for him to come up to speed.


How productive can you be when your butt is slammed into the grass evertime you try to make a move?

NFLforher
10-26-2005, 09:49 PM
So true. I don't claim to be a QB guru, but at least I'm not dumb enough to believe that he isn't trying to do everything he can out there to help this team win. Houston doesn't deserve a QB like him, especially when he has been nothing but a man by not saying this coaching staff and team blows.


Exactly.

NFLforher
10-26-2005, 09:50 PM
Why does everyone always bring up Carr's looks? The dude ain't that good looking.



Yes, he is.

NFLforher
10-26-2005, 09:57 PM
:texflag: I believe the people who want change are more interested in the team and the play of said team. The pro Carr folks are way to personal with their feelings . Like Vinny said Carr's a great guy but that does'nt mean he gets a free pass . Aaron Glen was a great guy and look at him .


We're not asking for a free pass, just a decent line, some weapons and a little time to throw.

thegr8fan
10-26-2005, 10:44 PM
I would think that, at this point, he expects to get slammed every time and acts accordingly. and that 'acts accordingly' is why some of us want him on the bench. Being scared to play the game is a very good reason to sit down, just like Babin and P-Burnt did.

a decent line, some weapons and a little time to throw.ok, the O-line is probably sub par for decent, but we have SOME weapons, Armstrong sitting on the bench is one, IMHO, and there are times when Carr does have enough time to throw, he chooses not to. Yet another reason to sit him down though if your argument is that the line can't protect him. Why get your million dollar golden boy killed at the end of a game when the score is 42-10? All of these are simply more arguments for sitting him down before he is injured. Come on 42-10 and he is still in there getting sack after sack, where is the logic in that?

All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.

edo783
10-27-2005, 12:07 AM
All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.

I am not sure they think he is CURRENTLY a great QB, but rather had the POTENTIAL to have been one and are defending his potential that has very likely been beat out of him. One of the worst cases of QB management I have ever seen. Could he have been a good QB....yes, and may still have the POSSIBILITY of being a good one. Could he have been a great on.....probably not, but having been beaten down for nearly 4 years will make it impossible to know that IMO, no matter what the quality of team he may wind up whith either here or elswhere. He has been totally mis-managed regarding his playing time and what they have given him to work with (o-line) not to mention that he has not been worked with effectivly to grow his talent.

thegr8fan
10-27-2005, 12:24 AM
I am not sure they think he is CURRENTLY a great QB, but rather had the POTENTIAL to have been oneok, so what is it exactly that makes someone think that he has the Potential to be a very good QB? What does he do that makes you go hmmmm. What does Carr do that makes anyone support him?

as for potential, heck every player drafted has the POTENTIAL to be the next superstar, NFL Hall of Fame player. Anyone of them.

thegr8fan
10-27-2005, 12:42 AM
ok, so what is it exactly that makes someone think that he has the Potential to be a very good QB? What does he do that makes you go hmmmm. What does Carr do that makes anyone support him? I noticed that, per your usual format, you chose to try and change the subject instead of answering the question The Great One. Why is it that when you ask a David Carr supporter to please defend their position with some credible thoughts and realistic analysis, they can't seem to do so. :texflag:

and I am not going to argue semantics with you on the word potential. They got drafted and on draft day the team that took them thought they had the POTENTIAL to become something great, otherwise they wouldn't have drafted them. Perhaps in later years they proved that to be a fallacy, but on draft day they had the exact same potential as everyone else to become a Hall of Famer.

Napa Auto Parts
10-27-2005, 12:53 AM
I noticed that, per your usual format, you chose to try and change the subject instead of answering the question The Great One. Why is it that when you ask a David Carr supporter to please defend their position with some credible thoughts and realistic analysis, they can't seem to do so. :texflag:

and I am not going to argue semantics with you on the word potential. They got drafted and on draft day the team that took them thought they had the POTENTIAL to become something great, otherwise they wouldn't have drafted them. Perhaps in later years they proved that to be a fallacy, but on draft day they had the exact same potential as everyone else to become a Hall of Famer.


Yeah Casserly has and eye for Qb's just ask Heath Shuler

thegr8fan
10-27-2005, 01:06 AM
so if he is so mobile, why is the sack count so high? When someone says VERY mobile, I think Vick. Is Carr able to run better than most starting QB's in the NFL, yeah, I'll say he is. But he has to be as his pocket presence is non-existant, IMHO. I think one of his detriments is he relies to heavily on his running ability and not enough on his pocket awareness.

let me say, I think that Carr has alot of physical attibutes that you listed and would agree with them. If his only positives are the ones you listed above though, he isn't even an average QB in the NFL then, IMHO.

beerlover
10-27-2005, 01:09 AM
While I'm not happy with the Texans current state of affairs I believe the Texans will & should extend Carr. at least it should provide a capable QB to transistion the next franchise QB be it Leinart or whoever.

I also feel there are many different approaches to building a team, but I hate trading draft picks for reclamation players or multiple picks for a stater caliber player. We should be patient but what Casserly has executed is anything but patient, he has mortgaged the future for the now based upon incorrect data or evaulation leaving the Texans with gapping holes and a firefighting backfilling mentality.

Capers is just a follower, a good soldier not the brains behind the trust, now the trust must find a brain, but to blame Carr is deplorable & short sighted.

infantrycak
10-27-2005, 09:30 AM
so if he is so mobile, why is the sack count so high? When someone says VERY mobile, I think Vick. Is Carr able to run better than most starting QB's in the NFL, yeah, I'll say he is. But he has to be as his pocket presence is non-existant, IMHO. I think one of his detriments is he relies to heavily on his running ability and not enough on his pocket awareness.

What you are saying about pocket presence and relying on running ability are true at this point, but they apply equally to Vick. Vick is horrible in pocket presence and staying in the pocket, horrid at making reads down field, holds onto the ball too long and takes off running too much. Despite all his mobility, he took sacks at a much higher rate than Carr last year. By the way, Carr actually has a higher yards per rushing attempt and higher % of 1st downs when he runs than Vick this year. The point to all that being, if anything, running QB's get sacked as much or more and Vick gets a free ride on being a cruddy QB because he gets 5 highlight reel runs a year.

GP
10-27-2005, 09:32 AM
"...good touch on deep passes" -- The Great One

--------------------

Uh.....no.

He HAD great touches on deep passes.

"...Unfortunately, without AJ in the game we just don't have a chance to lob it up there and let him make a great catch."

Remember that?

Kaiser Toro
10-27-2005, 09:41 AM
It is a FACT that he has good touch on his deep ball WHEN he has time to throw.

Can you please provide your methodology on this fact?

Honoring Earl 34
10-27-2005, 10:14 AM
:texflag: Carr's best pass is when he can drill a 15 yd curl . The jury is still out on everything else.

Vinny
10-27-2005, 10:27 AM
Just answer me this, if was Carr drafted by the Steelers or somebody like that, comming out of college, do you think that his "play" would be better? I don't know, I'm don't have skills to see what is just imagination. I've seen you dog players who you don't think play well, and don't tell me you don't. The QB is not immune to fans not liking what they see.It is the people around you that make you what you are What, you mean Ryan Leaf wasn't a bust? No other QB could have done better in San Diego?

The people around me make me who I am my Lord, Wife, Children, if I did not have them in my life I could not go out and perform to the best of my ability. Sounds nice in theory but this is a game of action and accountability. I don't think Carr plays up to his pick. I don't think most of our linemen play up to their salary either...but unlike you I think we have multiple problems including the QB.

So untill Carr can get some players around him he deserves every benefit of the doubt right now. If we get him these guys and he sucks I can accept that and I am sure he will as well. Carr has to play better for this fan to give him a break. That's just how it is.

eriadoc
10-27-2005, 10:33 AM
I would probably be pigeonholed into the "Carr Supporter" camp, I suppose, so I'll give my take on it. First of all, this is not a black and white issue. I do not support Carr for the sake of supporting Carr. In fact, if it could be demonstrated that Carr would do as poorly on a decent team and another QB could do well behind our team, I say change QBs. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that there is not a quarterback on this planet that would have found any more success from 2002-present with this team, as it has been comprised. Given that, I just don't see how changing the QB is really going to solve anything. So many people like to single out Carr for all our problems, or even our biggest problem. I can think of at least two major issues that need to be addressed before you can even begin to make a fair evaluation of either the QB or the WRs.

First, the coaching staff. It's obvious that this staff is not getting maximum productivity out of the players we have. We may not have Pro-Bowl caliber players, but we have better talent than the production would indicate. Good teams get good production from less-than-premium talent. We don't. Furthermore, this coaching staff does not play to their personnel's strengths. The coaches' jobs are to put our players in the best position to succeed and I don't see that happening.

Second, the offensive line needs work. We need a left tackle. Whether that is accomplished by drafting, free agency, or coaching Pitts or Wand, it's not been accomplished since this team's inception. Anything that's an issue for that long needs to be addressed. We've drafted three(?) offensive linemen since the team's inception - Pitts, Wand, and Hodgdon. When ESPN makes a commercial about your O-line, you might want to think about grabbing a few more guys in the draft and working on developing a few.

Some on this board would even argue that a third issue ahead of Carr would be Casserly. There are valid arguments for that, as well. The bottom line is Carr has not been put in a position to succeed to this point. I don't know that he ever will succeed and I am not advocating keeping him around because he's our golden boy or anything like that. In fact, in other threads, I have stated that we should rework his deal to keep him around for less money. I don't think he's worth the contract we've paid, but I don't want to draft someone and ruin them as well. Keep Carr, draft a QB in '07, and fix the line in '06. Carr still has the potential to be a good QB and if the line and scheme are fixed in '06 and he doesn't produce, then at least you've set yourself up for not ruining a QB in '07.

One final thought - please stop with the inane argument that when Carr gets time, he doesn't throw the ball. Better yet, if you're in the stadium, go to one of the end zones on the mezzanine level and watch the plays develop. There are no receivers open most of the time. This scheme is seriously gimped and you can't see it on TV. Carr does plenty wrong without muddling the issue with false observations.

Honoring Earl 34
10-27-2005, 11:11 AM
:texflag: Have you ever played on a team ... maybe baseball that when a certain players up with bases loaded and two outs , his teammates start looking for their gloves . This player never gets taken out even though he does 'nt come through ... except for walks ( running for a 1st instead of throwing ) .

I bet the OL would give a better effort with a new QB .

Kaiser Toro
10-27-2005, 11:28 AM
In the word of the Guiness guys, "Brilliant!!"

Yeah, they are drunk. Every things looks brilliant when you have Carr, errrr, Guiness colored glasses.

Honoring Earl 34
10-27-2005, 11:29 AM
Point is their not rallying behind the QB . If they think he does 'nt give them a shot to win then this is human nature ... but yes you get rid of those types .

Kaiser Toro
10-27-2005, 11:31 AM
I would probably be pigeonholed into the "Carr Supporter" camp, I suppose, so I'll give my take on it. First of all, this is not a black and white issue. I do not support Carr for the sake of supporting Carr. In fact, if it could be demonstrated that Carr would do as poorly on a decent team and another QB could do well behind our team, I say change QBs. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that there is not a quarterback on this planet that would have found any more success from 2002-present with this team, as it has been comprised. Given that, I just don't see how changing the QB is really going to solve anything. So many people like to single out Carr for all our problems, or even our biggest problem. I can think of at least two major issues that need to be addressed before you can even begin to make a fair evaluation of either the QB or the WRs.

First, the coaching staff. It's obvious that this staff is not getting maximum productivity out of the players we have. We may not have Pro-Bowl caliber players, but we have better talent than the production would indicate. Good teams get good production from less-than-premium talent. We don't. Furthermore, this coaching staff does not play to their personnel's strengths. The coaches' jobs are to put our players in the best position to succeed and I don't see that happening.

Second, the offensive line needs work. We need a left tackle. Whether that is accomplished by drafting, free agency, or coaching Pitts or Wand, it's not been accomplished since this team's inception. Anything that's an issue for that long needs to be addressed. We've drafted three(?) offensive linemen since the team's inception - Pitts, Wand, and Hodgdon. When ESPN makes a commercial about your O-line, you might want to think about grabbing a few more guys in the draft and working on developing a few.

Some on this board would even argue that a third issue ahead of Carr would be Casserly. There are valid arguments for that, as well. The bottom line is Carr has not been put in a position to succeed to this point. I don't know that he ever will succeed and I am not advocating keeping him around because he's our golden boy or anything like that. In fact, in other threads, I have stated that we should rework his deal to keep him around for less money. I don't think he's worth the contract we've paid, but I don't want to draft someone and ruin them as well. Keep Carr, draft a QB in '07, and fix the line in '06. Carr still has the potential to be a good QB and if the line and scheme are fixed in '06 and he doesn't produce, then at least you've set yourself up for not ruining a QB in '07.

One final thought - please stop with the inane argument that when Carr gets time, he doesn't throw the ball. Better yet, if you're in the stadium, go to one of the end zones on the mezzanine level and watch the plays develop. There are no receivers open most of the time. This scheme is seriously gimped and you can't see it on TV. Carr does plenty wrong without muddling the issue with false observations.

Good post. All valid points and agree with you about 95% of the way.

Honoring Earl 34
10-27-2005, 11:42 AM
:texflag: Ozzie Guillen said he got rid of a dozen players like that . That it did'nt matter much they won or lost... if they did well theirselves .

Kaiser Toro
10-27-2005, 04:47 PM
You see, I know it is complicated, but I actually used my eyes.

Well under that methodology I may have you because I used my eyes as well and have 20/10 vision. :) Moreover, I do put myself through the torture of watching the games again.

So you can see how it is complicated to me as how your methodolgy is simply you watching the game once with your 20/20 vision. :sarcasm:

Honoring Earl 34
10-27-2005, 04:51 PM
:texflag: If I worked for Vinny and I was doing something that maybe I was'nt capable of ... no matter how hard I tried I would expect to get canned .

Kaiser Toro
10-27-2005, 05:09 PM
To see a well thrown ball you don't need 20/10 vision, nor do you need to see it more than once. I do; however, watch the games twice myself. So I know it makes it even more complicated for you!! :tv:


Well, we have hit an impasse. At least I am sure that we will both be rooting for our Texans this Sunday. :texflag:

aj.
10-27-2005, 06:15 PM
I wish I knew what the relationship is like between Carr and his o-linemen. From what I've heard they spend little time together off the field - which isn't all that uncommon these days but there needs to be some bonding there somehow somewhere. I've seen Carr scream those guys down during games many times and part of the problem may be a serious lack of cohesiveness/togetherness among them. The working assumption for many of you is that the o-line blows because they have no talent and that "if Carr had time..." Well, it may not only be below average talent on the OL. There's probably flawed elements of system, talent, chemistry, and QB all working together to create this mess. There's also an element of prima donna in Carr that I've always sensed (moreso than most QBs), that when combined with the perception that it's all the OL's fault, may really be creating animosity between the OL and QB that none of us are aware of.

Line problems or no line problems, Carr hasn't played well enough to earn an extension but at the same time I would like to see him operate a different system - so I wouldn't be totally opposed to the two year extension vs. the three.

There's an OL out there that we saw very recently, and the starters consist of one 1st rounder, one 4th rounder, one 5th rounder, and two undrafted free agents. There's not one Pro Bowler among them but they have adequate talent, a few very good to great skill players around them, and are in a system that seems to optimize the talent they have. They will probably be in the Super Bowl.

GP
10-27-2005, 06:45 PM
You don't know what the relationship is like between Carr and the OL?

Granted, I only see what the cameras show...

But it pretty much looks like Carr and the OL have zero relationship.

He manned up and patted McKinney on the rear on ESPN the other night against the Seahawks. But hey, what else are you going to do when nothing is working? And, you're on national TV. And, you have a reputation for being a class guy?

They just ALL look confused and ready for the season to end. I know I am.

Forget Carr and the OL right now. The thing that has me worried is this team's ownership, management, and coaching departments. As long as this group continues to pass the buck around, instead of getting things done that they promise to get done, it doesn't matter if we have David Carr or Jim Caviezel (the dude who played Jesus in Mel Gibson's movie) as QB...

:brickwall

mean mark8
10-27-2005, 06:54 PM
Buffalo thought Losman gave them their best chance to win too...until he stunk it up. They were smart enough to change quarterbacks and give him some competition. Losman now knows he can't play unless he plays well. Carr doesn't know this feeling.

Good statement. Carr has never had any competition for his position. I believe the only other positions for the Texans where they have never had any competition are K. Brown and Stanley. The San Diego Chargers have a number one pick, almost overall if you figure the screwy way he got there, who is riding the pine. There was actual competition for the QB position and the high paid draft choice lost out because he held out. IMO, I would like to see what Carr would get as an offer in free agency if there's someway we could let him go with the contingency we could match. I think the Chargers may be looking at offers for Rivers now that Brees has shown he was not a one year wonder. I would expect that other teams may be more inclined to go for Rivers because he hasn't shown anything in the NFL, while Carr may look like a beat up QB who holds the ball too long -- right or wrong. I think this would be a way to see what the rest of the league thinks anyway.

aj.
10-27-2005, 07:59 PM
You don't know what the relationship is like between Carr and the OL?

No, I don't. I only see what the cameras show, what I see on the field and what I see on the sideline when the defense is on the field. I don't know any of these guys well enough to talk to them about it - but I do know a few members of the media who spend a lot of time around these guys - hence my musing and speculation.

Forget Carr and the OL right now. The thing that has me worried is this team's ownership, management, and coaching departments.

This was a Carr thread so I posted my thoughts about him here. I'm sure there are other threads about coaching and management to talk about those other things.

keyfro
10-27-2005, 10:37 PM
the main thing to keep in mind here is that the texan organization has not put david carr in a position to succeed...the offensive line has been pathetic at best...recievers have been a huge question mark...what's a tight end?...and the running game that is supposedly a QB's best friend only helps carr if the other intagables are there.

if you judge carr on what he's been able to do in this system try and think what a less mobile qb would have been able to do like payton manning...i think you'd see manning yelling and throwing his helmet just like carr

now i say we need to give carr the tools in order to succeed...give hiim an o-line that gives him 3-4 seconds to pass the ball...give him a group of recievers that run the right routes and catch the ball...a TIGHT END who can block and catch...and the best thing is a lot of this can be found in this year's draft

draft ferguson, jeff king, and other lineman
sign a FA reciever who has big play ability or who atleast will draw the double team away from andre...IE IF WE HAD SIGNED PLEX WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS...sorry had to get that out

NFLforher
10-27-2005, 11:30 PM
and that 'acts accordingly' is why some of us want him on the bench. Being scared to play the game is a very good reason to sit down, just like Babin and P-Burnt did.

ok, the O-line is probably sub par for decent, but we have SOME weapons, Armstrong sitting on the bench is one, IMHO, and there are times when Carr does have enough time to throw, he chooses not to. Yet another reason to sit him down though if your argument is that the line can't protect him. Why get your million dollar golden boy killed at the end of a game when the score is 42-10? All of these are simply more arguments for sitting him down before he is injured. Come on 42-10 and he is still in there getting sack after sack, where is the logic in that?

All you Carr supporters want to tell me what he does, exactly, that makes you think he is such a good QB? I mean, I really want to know what you are seeing in his playing that makes you think he even has the potential to be a really good QB. What is it in Carr mechanics, throwing ability, decisions, timing, etc that makes you think he is a good QB? I really want to know this, so please enlighten me. And just for the record, I am not being sarcastic on this one. I am actually very curios what it is that I am missing with his playing that makes others think he is such a great QB.


I watched him play in college.

aj.
10-28-2005, 07:07 AM
I watched him (Carr) play in college.

I watched Andre Ware in college. What's the point?

if you judge carr on what he's been able to do in this system try and think what a less mobile qb would have been able to do like payton manning...i think you'd see manning yelling and throwing his helmet just like carr...

Likewise, if you dropped the Colts o-line in here under this offensive braintrust, Carr would probably be screaming them down too.

Double Barrel
10-28-2005, 09:58 AM
now i say we need to give carr the tools in order to succeed...give hiim an o-line that gives him 3-4 seconds to pass the ball...give him a group of recievers that run the right routes and catch the ball...a TIGHT END who can block and catch...and the best thing is a lot of this can be found in this year's draft

Give Trent Dilfer those things and a good defense and he'll win a Superbowl for you. ;)

The point being, even a mediocre QB can succeed with a great team around him. But truly great QBs can be successful at times with marginal talent around them (ie. Dan Marino - never had a good RB, etc.)

I'm not calling out Carr, but he's got to make due with what he's got....if he's capable of doing so.

Honoring Earl 34
10-28-2005, 10:42 AM
:challenge Dilfer had a great Defense not good . Banks started out as the QB and did not get an offensive TD for 5 games then Dilfer took over .

Yeah I know thats why I vote for Ragone .

Honoring Earl 34
10-28-2005, 10:57 AM
:texflag: They also had Jammal Lewis who before his prison time was a very good running back . I can only remember Ogden from the OL but he was topshelf .

Kaiser Toro
10-28-2005, 10:59 AM
I agree about the Ravens. The Ravens had a GREAT defense and a QB that didn't make mistakes. The offense was VERY conservative. That is how they won the SB.

This is what I have been talking about. The Ravens were spending their money on Defense and had a top back and LT. When you do not have your highest paid player at QB you have the ability to spread the cash around.

Not having a high priced QB has been a indirect recipe for success in the last decade for Super Bowl Champions. That is, until Payton wins one.

Honoring Earl 34
10-28-2005, 11:12 AM
:texflag: The Texans went the Young , Bosselli , McKinney route . They then drafted Pitts . If it was a perfect world we might have had a good OL .

eriadoc
10-28-2005, 11:51 AM
:texflag: The Texans went the Young , Bosselli , McKinney route . They then drafted Pitts . If it was a perfect world we might have had a good OL .

Good point. I don't fault the Texans for their initial steps with the O-line; I fault them for their ineptness since. Poor coaching is mostly to blame, from reshuffling constantly to changing schemes to technique. They did go out and acquire Todd Wade, who is a good run blocker, but for whatever reason, has not been a good pass blocker. I am not familiar with his body of work in MIA, so I can't say whether he was a good pass blocker in MIA or not. They've drafted three linemen in four years, when that unit has clearly been the #1 issue on the team. Ragone and Hollings come to mind as wasted picks, and I'm sure I'm forgetting at least one or two others (I don't count Joppru as wasted, because we needed a TE, even if he has been a medical basket case). They should have drafted at least a couple more linemen to this point and developed them. Of course, then we're back to that whole coaching thing.

College Texan
10-28-2005, 11:56 AM
Alot of the problem is that there is no sure starters and this is confusing the players, really, who's our te, who is our #2, who's the starting o-line, starting linebackers, 2nd corner? If I was a player how would I tell my family I'm the third or second WR or linebakcer.....and so forth. This is why we see so much rotation and this is confusing the crap out of me.

Double Barrel
10-28-2005, 02:11 PM
He never had to, he threw the ball 40+ times a game and he did not get as much preasure on him as much as Carr has.

That Mediocre QB you talk about has a SuperBowl Ring, that is not mediocre. I still say he should be the QB of the Baltimore Ravens.

"At Times", you said. Carr has looked great at times, Kansas City comeback, Vikings game, Raiders game, All the times he played the Jags, THE COWBOY GAME.

No doubt about it, Hulk. I'm not a "Carr hater" or even basher. I think he's got great potential (or had before it was beat out of him...hopefully it's still there if/when the Texans front office puts together a solid OL).

My initial reply was a response to keyfro's assertion that he needs all these great things around him to be successful. I think he just needs a consistent pass protection to be successful, even with mediocre TEs and #2/3 WRs. It all starts with the line, IMO.

I'll never take away the great games that DC has had, which is why I still have the opinion that he's got a lot of potential. But, in those games, we had solid defenses, which were basically stripped of leadership in the off-season and replaced with talent that has yet to prove itself.

I'd rather have a team that has a dominant D with an offense that is solid and doesn't lose games. The old saying "defense wins championships" is true, which is why a medicre QB like Dilfer has a championship ring.

welsh texan
10-28-2005, 10:51 PM
The problem with paying a guy 60 million dollars is he needs to be productive. How long do we wait to see if he ever gets it? He keeps us from signing other good players due to him crowding a large part of the salary cap. He has more starts than Bulger, Pennington and Brees...We can't wait another 50 starts for him to come up to speed.
do you really pay him $60 million?

how can they make money from paying that kind of money to 40-50 players?

thats jus ridiculous money, the best soccer players earn about 5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

Double Barrel
10-28-2005, 11:43 PM
the best soccer players earn about 5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

Because the biggest sports market in the world (U.S.) could give a rat's **** about soccer.

Just the way it is. idonno:

edo783
10-29-2005, 12:37 AM
do you really pay him $60 million?

how can they make money from paying that kind of money to 40-50 players?

thats jus ridiculous money, the best soccer players earn about 5 million a year, and people like David Bekham are better at what they do than Carr is at what he does, its amazing

It's 60 million over ~7 years, sooo the Soccer guys make more at 5 Million pounds a year (~9 million dollars). Still a LOT of cash any way you slice it.