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Htown34s
10-19-2005, 05:46 PM
Accord to Kirk Bohls, Sports writer for the Austin-American Statesman, Bob McNair want's to try to lure Pete Carroll from USC back to a head coaching gig in the NFL.

link (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2005/10/19/are_pete_carrolls_days_numbered_at_usc.html)

I've read an interview of Carroll from a while back saying he doesn't want to return to the NFL, and I doubt he'd do it. But this is the first published rumor of a head coach replacement that I know of, and it'll be interesting to see if anything develops.

What would you think if Carroll is our head coach come next year? :texans:

Double Barrel
10-19-2005, 05:50 PM
I think it would be great. But highly unlikely. He's got the no. 1 team in college for the past three years. Who would want to leave that kind of success behind at the top of their game?

Same for Charlie Weiss (at least this next year). I think these coaches really enjoy the NCAA.

But you never know. While there is prestige with being a national champion, there is nothing like the world championship of winning a Superbowl.

mean mark8
10-19-2005, 05:53 PM
If he can bring Norm Chow with him, fine. Otherwise, I don't recall him as anything special in the NFL; his overall record was 33-31 with his last being 6-10 at NY Jets. Of course if you compare this record to Capers', :embarrass well I'm sorry, there is no comparison. He did take the Patriots to the playoffs in his first 2 years though. So, maybe if we think we have the talent, he might could do something.

Wharton
10-19-2005, 05:56 PM
Granted there are worse choices then Carroll, but considering he got his butt handed to him on a platter in the NFL, I'd rather see a current NFL OC/DC get a chance.

Also, while there are some notable exceptions like Jimmy Johnson, history has shown that very few college coaches make successful NFL coaches.

:twocents:

Lucky
10-19-2005, 05:59 PM
I think it would be great. But highly unlikely. He's got the no. 1 team in college for the past three years. Who would want to leave that kind of success behind at the top of their game?

I can think of million$ of reason$. McNair could make Carroll very $atisfied.

Besides, great coaches love challenges. Can you think of a bigger challenge in football right now than the Texans?

Carroll was 27-21 with 2 playoff appearances at New England. That looks pretty good to me about now. If you're going to judge Carroll solely on what he did in the NFL, you'd never have given Belichick the job in New England. He was 36-44 in his first HC gig in Cleveland.

Htown34s
10-19-2005, 05:59 PM
Norm Chow left to do basically a lateral move with the Titans. Something there tells me he either didn't want to work for Carroll any longer or wants to be an NFL head coach himself. Either way, I doubt Chow would be our OC.

powda
10-19-2005, 06:01 PM
mcnair probably would make a big push for him ,but ultimately i dont see it happening. it would bring immediate excitement back to houston football...im just not sure he's quite right for the job...

would make the draft VERY interesting...

powda
10-19-2005, 06:03 PM
Norm Chow left to do basically a lateral move with the Titans. Something there tells me he either didn't want to work for Carroll any longer or wants to be an NFL head coach himself. Either way, I doubt Chow would be our OC.

i agree he probably does have his sights set on a hc job in the future...i just wouldnt call a college oc and a pro oc a lateral move.

mean mark8
10-19-2005, 06:05 PM
Norm Chow left to do basically a lateral move with the Titans. Something there tells me he either didn't want to work for Carroll any longer or wants to be an NFL head coach himself. Either way, I doubt Chow would be our OC.

What do you think about McNair going for Chow as our Head Coach? I think it would definitely improve our offense...Well if we figure out how to get this O-line to pass protect. :pigfly:

Wharton
10-19-2005, 06:06 PM
i just wouldnt call a college oc and a pro oc a lateral move.

It is when you go to the Titans :rofl:

tsip
10-19-2005, 06:10 PM
IMO, a new head coach needs to

1) realize there are 3 phases to an NFL team--defense/offense/special teams
2) hire coaches that can coach/teach and let them coach, not simply mirror his philosophies
3) be a good talent evaluator and use his players strenghts for the benefit of the team
4) and-most of all-coach to win, go into every game with the mindset to do whatever it takes to win that game that week
5) play for 4 qtrs not just the last possession
6) 'face the music'--if you screwed up, admit it and go on, learning from the experience :texflag:

infantrycak
10-19-2005, 06:31 PM
Granted there are worse choices then Carroll, but considering he got his butt handed to him on a platter in the NFL, I'd rather see a current NFL OC/DC get a chance.

Also, while there are some notable exceptions like Jimmy Johnson, history has shown that very few college coaches make successful NFL coaches.

:twocents:

How is going to the playoffs in 2 of 4 years and having a losing record in 1 of 4 years getting your butt handed to you? Plus the guy spent 15 years coaching in the NFL so he is hardly a "college" coach--he only has 1 more year as a college head coach than he has had as an NFL head coach. Not advocating for or against him, but that just doesn't seem accurate.

He's got the no. 1 team in college for the past three years. Who would want to leave that kind of success behind at the top of their game?

A smart man. He is most likely about to lose Leinart and Bush and maybe White as well. Seems to me getting while the getting is good might be an idea--it is only going to go down hill from where he has been at.

I don't recall him as anything special in the NFL; his overall record was 33-31 with his last being 6-10 at NY Jets.

No his 1st was 6-10 with the Jets in 1994. He coached the Patriots from 97-99

kbourda
10-19-2005, 06:39 PM
mcnair probably would make a big push for him ,but ultimately i dont see it happening. it would bring immediate excitement back to houston football...im just not sure he's quite right for the job...

would make the draft VERY interesting...

Not sure if he's right for the job? He would be perfect for the job. But I agree with you in the sense of not seeing it happening just based upon the fact that he has been on record saying that he would never coach in the NFL again.


I've always liked Pete Carroll's coaching style.

beerlover
10-19-2005, 06:45 PM
I've been touting Carrol for some time, but not as Head Coach as the GM. Bring him here and give him a slice of the action and good things would happen. He is not just another good football mind with vast experience he is a shrewd evaulator of talent and knows how to build a winning organization which is what McNair is all about. Then he could try and get Chow as his head coach, but I would prefeer a Texan like Buffalo Bills DC Jerry Gray as HC. :texflag:

Gunbuny
10-19-2005, 06:55 PM
I don't see Carroll leaving college football. He is in complete control in college. He is the GM, andHC. He goes after the players he wants, there is NO salary cap to worry about, and finally the only ego that has to be tolerated is his. Why in the hell would he want to leave. I think he makes quite a bit of money in college so money won't do it. He is not at some barber college, he is at USC, one of the big schools with very deep pockets.

Texas_Thrill
10-19-2005, 06:56 PM
If I was Carroll I wouldn't come to the Texans. The NFL is win now league and that's what he doesn't want to deal with not to mention you are dealing with student athletes as opposed to paid ones. Different mindset.

I think pete found his niche and is just happy where he is.

I'd rather see and ESTABLISHED OC/DC get a shot.

Double Barrel
10-19-2005, 07:00 PM
I can think of million$ of reason$. McNair could make Carroll very $atisfied.

Besides, great coaches love challenges. Can you think of a bigger challenge in football right now than the Texans?

Thi$ i$ true, on both count$. :)

And considering he's already got a couple of national championships on his resume (and potentially a third), he might want to go for history and be only the third coach to have both an NFL and NCAA championships. It's possible! idonno:

A smart man. He is most likely about to lose Leinart and Bush and maybe White as well. Seems to me getting while the getting is good might be an idea--it is only going to go down hill from where he has been at.

yeah, this is true. My initial reaction was that he wouldn't want to leave at the top.

But I guess you could look at it two ways:

He's losing key players that got the team to stay at no. 1, and you've got to wonder what he can do next year.

or

He'll be able to replace them with blue chip talent because of the reputation that both he and USC now have, which is very important for getting players to sign up to your program.

I'm sure he's already recieved other NFL offers, which he's obviously turned down. But like Lucky mentioned, money talks.

nunusguy
10-19-2005, 07:04 PM
I dunno....Carrol may be one of the few guys who'd be even tougher for
Big Bob to get hired than Jimmie Johnson.

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 07:28 PM
"Word is that the Houston Texans might do everything in their power to persuade Trojans Coach Pete Carroll to return to the NFL. That’s assuming, he would even consider the Texans part of the NFL."

That's going to be a huge problem this offseason. It's going to very hard to lure free agents and coaches here after this pathetic season. If McNair would have made some moves before this season (as many of us suggested) it would have been a different story. His hesitation turned the 4-year plan into a 10-year plan.

Exascor
10-19-2005, 07:36 PM
"Word is that the Houston Texans might do everything in their power to persuade Trojans Coach Pete Carroll to return to the NFL. That’s assuming, he would even consider the Texans part of the NFL."

That's going to be a huge problem this offseason. It's going to very hard to lure free agents and coaches here after this pathetic season. If McNair would have made some moves before this season (as many of us suggested) it would have been a different story. His hesitation turned the 4-year plan into a 10-year plan.I agree. It won't be easy to lure anyone good here. It CAN be done though. SEE: Cincinatti Bengals

The only hope for next season is to get someone that can make players WANT to come here despite this season's performance. Sometimes that's a fresh young new HC like Mora or Lewis. Sometimes it's a salty old veteran like Parcells. Money and control can attract people. Mcnair seems like someone we'd all love to work for so that's not an issue.

Stay tuned...

Vinny
10-19-2005, 07:40 PM
This is a high value franchise. You don't base the worth of this place on Dom Caper's regime. If Bob wants him bad enough Carroll will come here if he wants to come back to the NFL.

Grid
10-19-2005, 07:51 PM
I dont think Carroll would satisfy me. He has done great in college.. but there are alot of coaches that do great in college and suck in the NFL.

I look at his NFL career.. and im not impressed at all.

I havent watched many USC games.. does Carroll have more passion than Capers? would he be a better motivator?

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 07:54 PM
This is a high value franchise. You don't base the worth of this place on Dom Caper's regime. If Bob wants him bad enough Carroll will come here if he wants to come back to the NFL.

What does the value of the franchise have to do with anything?

Given the choice between...

A) Making a few million dollars more to coach a band of losers in Houston and potentially be viewed as failure again.

or

B) Continue coaching the national championhip Trojans in beautiful SoCal garnering universal respect.

Now, if we're talking complete control (GM responsibilities) and/or several more million dollars, I could see the attraction. Otherwise, the coaches that this organization can get at this point are second-tier type guys looking for a long-shot to establish themselves.

D-ReK
10-19-2005, 07:59 PM
Carroll has said in the past that the only way that he would return to the NFL would be if he had complete control over the organization...He's a good coach, but I'm not sure I'd allow him that privilege, but then again, I have trouble with commitment...

infantrycak
10-19-2005, 08:04 PM
Folks almost every head coaching job opportunity in the NFL comes on a fair to bad team. The old coach is out the vast majority of the time because the team is sucking. Oppurtunities like Gruden had in Tampa are rare. There are only 32 opportunities to be an NFL head coach and hundreds of folks who want one.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 08:39 PM
What does the value of the franchise have to do with anything? Everything, and you are assuming we don't restructure the football operations completely. The difference between the Saints employees lifestyle and working conditions don't trump the Texans high line, state of the art working arena and practice facilities. The football people here have every tool they want and don't have to beg some bottom line Bud when they need something for our football team. The time for Carroll to jump is ripe if he wants to jump....it's a long time till the eoy however and I'm sure more names will pop up. That said, I'm not pro or con Pete Carroll.

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 08:53 PM
The difference between the Saints employees lifestyle and working conditions don't trump the Texans high line, state of the art working arena and practice facilities. The football people here have every tool they want and don't have to beg some bottom line Bud when they need something for our football team.

Has this made a difference so far? Why is it that lower value franchises can attract high-profile free agents while Houston has to overpay for scrubs to get them to come here? Nobody wanted to come here before this season so what makes you think they will now that we are the laughing stock of the league?

nunusguy
10-19-2005, 09:02 PM
Too bad Sabin didn't hang around LSU just one more year, he would have had some real appeal and he probably would have been just as interested to enter Head Coaching in the NFL thru Houston as Miami.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 09:03 PM
Has this made a difference so far? Your right....decades of frustration have shown us the light. Why is it that lower value franchises can attract high-profile free agents while Houston has to overpay for scrubs to get them to come here?How about asking something tough? Who wants to play on an expansion team and lose for a few years?

We have enough talent to restructure and push for the playoffs in a two year window now. We have gotten through the expansion build. We are no longer looking for guys to replace street FA's and have a core of players. It's a small core, but we have a core of talent that is far more talented than our original team and the teams that came afterwards.

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 09:10 PM
we have a core of talent that is far more talented than our original team and the teams that came afterwards.

Really? Why was the defense (and possibly the offense) so much better in 2002? If anything, there might be less talent... that's what the stats and record would indicate anyway. But if you're judging players on potential and not production you might have a case.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 09:15 PM
Really? Why was the defense (and possibly the offense) so much better in 2002? If anything, there might be less talent... that's what the stats and record would indicate anyway. But if you're judging players on potential and not production you might have a case.No, I'm basing it on dumb things like we have better players than Domingo Graham and Jimmy Herndon. Foolish thoughts like James Allen and Stacey Mack aren't as good as Dom Davis and Vernand Mornency. Peek is better than Charlie Clemons or Keith Mitchell. Jerry Deloach doesn't have to start on a unit with Matt Stevens and Jay Foreman. I base my thoughts on silly things like tangible reality.

Lucky
10-19-2005, 09:19 PM
...Nobody wanted to come here before this season so what makes you think they will now that we are the laughing stock of the league?
I think if a coach with cachet is brought in, the pursuit of free agents should become more productive. What the Texans need is a good recruiter. Just another skill set Capers doesn't have.

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 09:25 PM
No, I'm basing it on dumb things like we have better players than Domingo Graham and Jimmy Herndon. Foolish thoughts like James Allen and Stacey Mack aren't as good as Dom Davis and Vernand Mornency. Peek is better than Charlie Clemons or Keith Mitchell. Jerry Deloach doesn't have to start on a unit with Matt Stevens and Jay Foreman. I base my thoughts on silly things like tangible reality.

Graham and Herndon might be an upgrade to this line. Those guys certainly couldn't do any worse.

I'll give you Dom over Allen and Mack, obviously.

And I'll give you Peek over Clemons and Mitchell... but would you take Peek over Foley or even Posey. Is Greenwood that much of an upgrade over Foreman? The stats say... no.

There are really only 2 ways to measure production for professional athletes and their teams and those are stats and records. Based on these, this is by far the most talentless (is that a word?) team to date.

keyfro
10-19-2005, 09:26 PM
first and foremost i think we need an offensive minded head coach...someone who can get carr and the rest of the offense back on track...and hire a good D-coordinator to either change the defense up or to get it on the right foot...personally i don't care if we change to a 4-3 or stay with the 3-4...i just want to see the defense show up to play...if we need new players then get those players...personally i'd like to see gary kubiak or al saunders be the HC and wade phillips be the D. coordinator

ATX_Texan
10-19-2005, 09:38 PM
Despite their recent problems, I think the Texans are viewed as a high value franchise. I think most football people realize that the Texans have a great owner willing to spend money on facilities and players. The ownership is lights years ahead of the Saints, Cardinals, and Saints. I think the biggest problem has been the coaching staff. I feel that the players realized just how far away the team was from ever competing for a championship half way through last season. Capers and Casserly sold everyone, including the players, that within 5 years the winning would be established. When players like Sharper and Glenn figured out that this staff did not have the knowledge to compete in the NFL, there was a movement to get out of here. Capers, Fangio, and Palmer lost the respect of the players and thus you have a hard time attracting professionals who want to win. I think Casserly also did a horrible job of evaluating talent. It looks like he was always reaching for potential or reclamation projects. Right now, you have an ultra conservative coach trying to win with execution and fundamentals and a GM who wants to take high risk projects who aren’t necessarily known for having established skills.

Money is always going to be the determining factor in where players go. However, most great players also want the opportunity to win. McNair has to find the a GM and coach committed to winning that share the same philosophy on how the team will be built. I am hoping that will be able to pry someone from New England or Philadelphia because these organizations know how to compete in the modern NFL.

profan
10-19-2005, 09:38 PM
i saw an interview with pete carrol last week. He was asked about coaching in the nfl and he indicated he would want to be in control of personel and get the players he wanted. He stated that while in new england the gm did not provide him with the players for his system and he was forced to try and put square pegs in round holes. He did not say he would not return to the nfl, but did indicate he would want more control than before. I was really impressed with the guy. He was asked if any recruits ask if they will be able to get playing time. He indicated that if a recruit asked that question he would not offer him a scholorship, because he wants players that were confident and had the attitude that they were coming to usc to play football.

GP
10-19-2005, 09:40 PM
"Something there tells me he either didn't want to work for Carroll any longer or wants to be an NFL head coach himself." --htown34s

You had it right with the first guess...

On ESPN radio, a long time ago when Norm Chow made his decision to leave USC, one of the commentators (either Dan Patrick or Mike & Mike....can't remember) said that they had good information that Chow and Carroll had a very strained working relationship and that Chow was just fed up with it.

That California sun makes you look good, but it does weird things to your brain.

Anyway, I wouldn't want him as HC. Him and Bill Callahan (formerly of the Oakland Raiders) are tired of the NFL superstars that they have noe control over. They went back to the college game because as a college HC you can (GASP!) bench players at will as you please...without worrying about inter-office politics. Callahan specifically said he was going back to college where he could scare the heck out of players and get them to obey.

Carrol, IMO, would make a great front office guy, but keep him away from players and onfield action.

Wharton
10-19-2005, 09:42 PM
How is going to the playoffs in 2 of 4 years and having a losing record in 1 of 4 years getting your butt handed to you?

Yep, he was the head coach of the Patriots, so let look at his record.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm


1997 nwe | 10 6 0
1998 nwe | 9 7 0
1999 nwe | 8 8 0

Pete Carroll got his butt handed to him in the NFL because he took a superbowl team – the 1996 Patriots under Bill Parcells – from first to worst. He had a diminishing record each of his full seasons and had a 2-6 record the year he was fired. Your right, he did lead the Patriots to two playoffs in his first two years, but I think that was on the left over momentum from Parcells and not from Pete Carroll ability to coach (See also Berry Switzer of the Dallas Cowboys). Here is the SI article on his firing.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2000/01/03/patriots_carroll_ap/

Again, while Pete Carroll would not be the worst choice for head coach of Texans and, while he is probably a better coach now then he was back then, I still say, give a current NFL OC/DC a chance before you hire Pete Carroll.

touttail
10-20-2005, 07:25 AM
Too bad Sabin didn't hang around LSU just one more year, he would have had some real appeal and he probably would have been just as interested to enter Head Coaching in the NFL thru Houston as Miami.


Sabin is a great college coach but he will find the going in the NFL very tough!It's different getting a bunch of college kids pumped up with rah-rah than the Pros. You can intimidate college kids, but the Pros will still make their millions to do enough to just get by and not be intimidated. He did great with Mich. St. and LSU but Miami-----nope!
Why did Pete Carroll leave the Pros to begin with? He could rule the college kids ranks but couldn't do it with the Pros. Steve Spurrier proved you could rah-rah college kids, but not the Pros. Same with John McKay.

bobby 119C

rittenhouserobz
10-20-2005, 07:45 AM
Has this made a difference so far? Why is it that lower value franchises can attract high-profile free agents while Houston has to overpay for scrubs to get them to come here? Nobody wanted to come here before this season so what makes you think they will now that we are the laughing stock of the league?

It makes me think players talk to each other. It is no different when you pick classes at registration. You ask the students who have had a certain teacher. "Did you like them? Was the homework bad? Did they teach the subject matter?

Well I contend that NFL players do the same thing when shopping for a new team. They ask the players of the teams they are interested in. "Do you like it there?" To me word of mouth is powerful. Apparently the Texans have a bad reputation right now.

GoPats
10-20-2005, 09:53 AM
I don't think Pete Carroll is cut out to be an NFL coach. He's sort of like the Rick Pitino of football. Great coach at the college level... one of the best... but whatever it is he does simply doesn't translate well to NFL players. There's a big difference between coaching 20-year-olds and coaching 23-year-old millionaires.

I like the guy a lot. He's totally likeable. But if you look at what happened when he was in New England, he inherited a Super Bowl team that got progressively worse each year he was here. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to poor drafting and personnel decisions.

I just think he's too much of a "rah-rah!" guy to make it in the NFL. JMHO.

Vinny
10-20-2005, 09:58 AM
I like the guy a lot. He's totally likeable. But if you look at what happened when he was in New England, he inherited a Super Bowl team that got progressively worse each year he was here. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to poor drafting and personnel decisions.We have a link to those teams as well....The Texans Associate Director of Pro Scouting Bobby Grier led the way on that. He was the vice president/player personnel for the New England Patriots.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=87

infantrycak
10-20-2005, 10:01 AM
Pete Carroll got his butt handed to him in the NFL because he took a superbowl team – the 1996 Patriots under Bill Parcells – from first to worst. He had a diminishing record each of his full seasons ...

And most Superbowl teams do what? Ding--Alex, I will take what is go down hill for $1000. Once you get to the top there are two options--stay there or go down hill. Most teams follow the latter path. Combine that with the what GoPats describes as poor personnel decisions and you have a very predictable result.

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 11:46 AM
Carrol was to the Patriots as Capers is to the Texans. A bad fit. Carrol is a great college coach and probably a pretty good OC in the NFL, but he is not overly good at managing the whole thing. College coaches enjoy coaching because it is more about the love of the game from the player standpoint than convincing men that they need to play well to earn their multi million dollar checks.

Lucky
10-20-2005, 02:21 PM
...Carrol is a great college coach and probably a pretty good OC in the NFL...
Pete Carroll's background is on the defensive side of the ball as a coordinator and a secondary coach.

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 02:23 PM
Your right I meant to hit DC sorry Lucky.

GoPats
10-21-2005, 11:31 AM
We have a link to those teams as well....The Texans Associate Director of Pro Scouting Bobby Grier led the way on that. He was the vice president/player personnel for the New England Patriots.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=87

Yep... Bobby Grier's name still comes up from time to time, mostly in reference to the Chris Canty pick in 1996... and not in such a good way, if you catch my drift...

TheOgre
10-21-2005, 11:53 AM
Pete Carroll was a horrible NFL head coach in his two tours of duty. He was bad in New England but he was just plain pathetic in New York. He is a great college coach, but that pom-pom approach doesn't work on NFL players.

Kaiser Toro
10-21-2005, 01:23 PM
I have to amdit I am not a Pete Carroll fan, but to say that any coach that wins a championship is overrated is a stretch. People that say that are probably the same that gripe and moan at work because a cohort gets a raise or is always performing very well.

There have been many more coaches that have "underperformed" with a talented team than coaches that have "outperformed" with a talented team. The last time I checked there is only one champion and history tends to be favorable in the annals that document the season.

Bobo
10-21-2005, 10:32 PM
Accord to Kirk Bohls, Sports writer for the Austin-American Statesman, Bob McNair want's to try to lure Pete Carroll from USC back to a head coaching gig in the NFL.

link (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2005/10/19/are_pete_carrolls_days_numbered_at_usc.html)

I've read an interview of Carroll from a while back saying he doesn't want to return to the NFL, and I doubt he'd do it. But this is the first published rumor of a head coach replacement that I know of, and it'll be interesting to see if anything develops.

What would you think if Carroll is our head coach come next year? :texans:

Oh lord. What a disaster that would be. He's already proven he can't coach in the pros. Why don't we go get Butch Davis while we're at it? Steve Spurrier might be lured back as well.

touttail
10-22-2005, 07:12 AM
We have a link to those teams as well....The Texans Associate Director of Pro Scouting Bobby Grier led the way on that. He was the vice president/player personnel for the New England Patriots.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=87


Grier himself was a running back, and then a running backs coach.
Vinny, maybe we should get an ex-lineman and an ex-lineman coach for Associate Director of Scouting--------LOL!

bobby 119C

texan2061
10-22-2005, 11:58 AM
If we have this same team next year, it will not matter who the coach is.

tulexan
10-22-2005, 01:22 PM
parcells does a pretty good job intimidating pros