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gtexan02
10-18-2005, 01:33 PM
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? In the upcoming draft we need to trade our 1st pick in the draft away for the 3rd or 4th pick, pick up an extra 2nd rounder or an extra 1st for next year, and draft the best LT in the draft. We then drop McKinney, and sign a proven center. We then start Rookie Pitts FA Wiegart Wade, and with good coaching, I promise you this line could perform very well. Look at Pittsburg, Grimm turned a bunch of no names into one of the best lines in the league. Look at Indy, that OL coach is famous, and he worked miracles. Manning hasnt been touched all season. The point Im trying to make is that there is no reason to spend more than our top pick on OL. With ANY FA acquisitions (and I odn't mean Riley type aditions--good players. And if we pick up a good, expensive LT from another team we wouldnt even have to use our 1st pick) we could turn our poor oline into above average.

Then I believe we already are scheduled to have 2 2nd day choices, so I say we pick defense and TE. There is no longer a need to draft WR. With a legitimate TE and the more improved Gaffney, plus the maturing mathis, we could easily drop bradford and still have a decent receiving corps. PLUS, elite WRs become FAs every single season. Coles, Moss, TO, S. Moss, Burress, Mason, Muhammad, have all switched teams recently, and it wouldn't be hard for us to get someone of their caliber. Anyway, I think this is a coaching issue first and foremost. We have talented players. i STILL think Babin and Pburnt have capabilities. I mean, look at where Pburnt went from - Norv turner to Dom Capers---no wonder he looks burnt. With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!

gtexan02
10-18-2005, 01:41 PM
I just thought of something scary. Lets say we do scrap the coaches and bring in some new guys. They seem some potential in our OL, and decide to coach it out of them instead of pick up new players. I can already hear it, "They just need time with the new coaches. ....gel...."

ahh! I hope we pick up some good people!

Texas
10-18-2005, 02:21 PM
I disagree but you have a right to your opinion. However I beleive our O-Line is embarassing now and really dont do what they possibly could have done long ago. It's time for a new crew to come through and do what we have failed to pursue. However I do beleive that we have some good talent. Its Madden- if you throw a 95 offense with a 80 defense your average is still gonna be around 87. With our not so good Oline and our lack of Tight ends and defensive play makers. AJ, DD, Dunta,Carr and others that are talented dont look so special.

El Tejano
10-18-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm sorry but if Reggie Bush is available we still gotta get him. I say draft Linehart, and make people give us what we want.

Porky
10-18-2005, 02:25 PM
And I insist you are wrong. We are in the bottom 2-3 clubs in terms of raw talent. We aren't even close to the average NFL team. Take off the glasses. :texflag:

Vinny
10-18-2005, 02:28 PM
People don't like to see it but Gary Walker is one of our best players and Babin did a fine job against the run last year...but as fans most of us seem glad Babin is out and want to push Walker out the door. Instead of wishing Walker was healthy we seem to want him gone.....well, our defense was never worse than it was Sunday without two solid run stoppers and I think that had a lot to do with how bad we have been defensively lately. People are so quick to hate on Walker and Casserly that nobody talks about losing two guys like this out of our front 7. If Walker was pretty like Carr he would probably get some love I figure. I know Babin won’t because everyone hates the trade….but we see what we have when those guys aren’t in the game.

nunusguy
10-18-2005, 02:35 PM
I know Babin won’t because everyone hates the trade
You have to understand this, one can be a fan of Babins (which I am) while
not being a fan of the trade that brought him here (which I'm not). I hope
that he suceeds, for the good of the team and the investmet we have in him
and for the young man personally.

infantrycak
10-18-2005, 02:38 PM
Walker also committed the crime of being injured. As soon as anyone is injured it is time to discard them as they are injury prone. Look at how people throw Payne in as injury prone when he has had one injury that has made him miss playing time while he has been a Texan.

nunusguy
10-18-2005, 02:56 PM
Walker also committed the crime of being injured. As soon as anyone is injured it is time to discard them as they are injury prone. Look at how people throw Payne in as injury prone when he has had one injury that has made him miss playing time while he has been a Texan.
No matter how talented an employee is, if he's sick (or injured) from work a
lot, he's of no value to his employer because in his absense he simply can't be productive. And I'm thinking Walker is out sick an awful lot ?

touttail
10-18-2005, 04:23 PM
I agree that this team has some talent. They have quit on the coaching staff!

bobby 119C :brickwall

The Mighty Texan
10-18-2005, 04:59 PM
Dumb Capers has done a GREAT job at destroying our team. We SUCK So bad I am wearing a paper bag over my head for the rest of the season! I only wish I did'nt cut holes in it...

Man, I am so pissed about what those stupid coaches did to our team... We have sent away some great talent and kept the weakest and frailest. piss poor performance. Face it guys I don't expect one win this year! I am so disgusted by our performance, our play calling everything!!

You know what I want? Dom Capers IN FRONT of the cameras. I want a press conference focusing on this horrable turn of events!!

Sound off Fans... The Texan Fans want a solution. We want it NOW!!!!

A Dom Capers press conference! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO DOM?

Explain Dom!! It starts and ends with YOU!!! Your the coach, right? Its your fault... bottom line dude!! David might as well come out with a gravestone on his head instead of a helmet for everytime he's buried in the backfield.

Should we change your name to DUMB Capers... You let this happen! Stand up a take this challenge! or you will be fired! I want your head if you can't explain... and I don't want you to blame someone else... the whole team sucks!!!

The Mighty Dissapointed Texan!!!!

SESupergenius
10-18-2005, 06:17 PM
People don't like to see it but Gary Walker is one of our best players and Babin did a fine job against the run last year...but as fans most of us seem glad Babin is out and want to push Walker out the door. Instead of wishing Walker was healthy we seem to want him gone.....well, our defense was never worse than it was Sunday without two solid run stoppers and I think that had a lot to do with how bad we have been defensively lately. People are so quick to hate on Walker and Casserly that nobody talks about losing two guys like this out of our front 7. If Walker was pretty like Carr he would probably get some love I figure. I know Babin won’t because everyone hates the trade….but we see what we have when those guys aren’t in the game.
I wished it was that simple to say that our defense is bad because Walker and Babin are out. Then we could just say, wow these guys were awesome and our defense is suffering because they are not there. Too bad it's NOT like that. We've been blown out of every game except for 1. As much as some people want to ignore it, the changes in our defensive personnel in the off season has a lot to do with it. The loss of some of our veteran players during the off season only compounds the loss of Walker and Babin. Other than Coleman and Dunta, everyone else is new to setup.

Man you are vicious with Carr, give it a little rest, we get it, you don't like Carr.

beerlover
10-18-2005, 07:39 PM
this is a very underachieving team for whatever reason :confused: lack of dicipline, lack of talent, lack of execution, lack of wins :embarrass

gtexan02
10-18-2005, 07:42 PM
The Power of Coaching:

Player Like Tom Brady, Steve Foley, the entire Broncos D-Line, etc. all prove that with proper coaching, even an underachieving, seemingly busted player can do well. RIght now, its impossible to say whether the problem is Capers or the players. We can get rid of Capers, but we can't get rid of all the players. Lets hope its the former.

TexanExile
10-18-2005, 08:05 PM
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too....I promise you this line could perform very well...The point Im trying to make is that there is no reason to spend more than our top pick on OL.

Other than drafting an LT with the 1st pick, I just don't see it your way. This group of O-linemen is bad. Todd Overpade has regressed badly this year, and there are apparently no legitimate centers on the roster right now. Pitts is getting flagged waaaaay too much for mental mistakes but I still think he's probably the best of the lot and should stay at guard; replacing the tackles is obviously a major priority. Drafting a TE who actually could make it from the practice bubble to the field without sustaining a season-ending injury would make a huge difference for the O-line too.

I also don't buy that this WR corps is as talented as we were led to believe. I'm not in the "drop Gaffney" lynch mob but he's not a top-flight WR; he'll have to do for now. The other guys are young and inexperienced and aren't getting the ball thrown to them--most of that is Pendryball, but some is their own individual inabilities to get open.

The D-line is adequate but not stellar. I like Gary Walker and have since he was an Oiler. Sadly, this D-line underachieves and Walker hasn't lived up to his price tag. (At this point I don't care why.) Smith hasn't either, but he's young and at least has THAT upside. Payne reworked his deal and does still try. In all, I'd like to see better, but for now the DL will have to do. There are bigger priorities.

Other than the OL, the area most in need of an upgrade is the LB corps. These guys are getting worse--with or without Babin. It's inconceivable that this unit has only produced 1 turnover (from a backup!) and 2 sacks all season. No, not inconceivable. The word is pathetic.

Lots of changes needed--this team is bottom-third of the NFL in overall talent, but there are a few bright spots. I say start with OL and LB to stop the bleeding, then worry about depth. Of course, before any LB changes, we'll have to wait and see what scheme the new coach will be running to know what kind of new puzzle pieces Houston needs.

gtexan02
10-18-2005, 08:15 PM
If we have Pitts and McKinney, or Pitts and Wiegart playing Guard, would you not agree that this would be at least acceptable? Then we have a rookie/FA LT and Center who would come in, and then Wade at RT. Wade has the size and skills needed to be an RT in this league. He has shown that in Miami, like it or not. He has regressed every play that he has played in Houston. With a new coach, our OL could be talented.

As for DL, I agree with you. TJ, Payne, and Smith will be our DL of the future. As good as Walker is, unless we resign him for a lot less than he's due, won't be worth the $$. His age + his injuries have started to have an effect on him.

As for WR, once again I agree. They are not priority. i would draft a top 20 TE before a top 5 WR at this point. A good TE would totally change our offense. Red zones, 3rd downs, cover twos would all be problems of the past

And as for LB, once again, I sort of agree. OLBs are not a priority. Peek, Babin, Wong, and Greenwood are all qualified OLBs. What we need is one truly stellar, sure tackling ILB. I don't care if he can pass rush, as long as he can tackle. If we stick with the 3-4, we can stick either Wong or Greenwood next to him and probably be ok.

So my dream draft would have us taking a top 10 LT, then an ILB and then a TE, however high we can get them. After that would come Center, CB, SS, FS, etc.

nunusguy
10-18-2005, 08:32 PM
I wished it was that simple to say that our defense is bad because Walker and Babin are out.
One can say it, but difficult to validate that claim since our Defense had its "best" performance at Cinci when Walker & Babin were also out. So it
would seem our Ds ability to perform effectively hinges on something else besides the presense of those 2.

Crank_It_Up
10-18-2005, 08:36 PM
I wished it was that simple to say that our defense is bad because Walker and Babin are out. Then we could just say, wow these guys were awesome and our defense is suffering because they are not there. Too bad it's NOT like that. We've been blown out of every game except for 1. As much as some people want to ignore it, the changes in our defensive personnel in the off season has a lot to do with it. The loss of some of our veteran players during the off season only compounds the loss of Walker and Babin. Other than Coleman and Dunta, everyone else is new to setup.

Man you are vicious with Carr, give it a little rest, we get it, you don't like Carr.
agreed

Ibar_Harry
10-18-2005, 09:51 PM
People don't like to see it but Gary Walker is one of our best players and Babin did a fine job against the run last year...but as fans most of us seem glad Babin is out and want to push Walker out the door. Instead of wishing Walker was healthy we seem to want him gone.....well, our defense was never worse than it was Sunday without two solid run stoppers and I think that had a lot to do with how bad we have been defensively lately. People are so quick to hate on Walker and Casserly that nobody talks about losing two guys like this out of our front 7. If Walker was pretty like Carr he would probably get some love I figure. I know Babin won’t because everyone hates the trade….but we see what we have when those guys aren’t in the game.

I'm beginning to wonder about some of your comments Vinny. There is an overtone that's not very nice about your statements. I will agree with the general assesment that the loss of our lineman defensively and offensively has hurt us badly. Our defense has been very bad and I too am upset with what we are seeing and would agree whole heartidly that we have once again lost key personnel to injuries. There is no question that a player like Walker is sorely missed. Its also true we simply have no backups anywhere and depth which you have often talked about is sorely missed. Part of this I will again attribute to coaching because we do not bring players along to fill in. We never seem to be able to replace players when someone goes down. The loss of Glenn and Sharper is also a big part of what we are seeing. Any way you cut it it looks like its going to be a very miserable long season. There is going to be a lot of infighting and I think a great deal of damage beyound what has already occurred is going to happen. We need an instant coaching change, but I understand why it probably won't happen. I'm not certain we can wait despite what is the norm.

Texans_Chick
10-18-2005, 09:53 PM
The Power of Coaching:

Player Like Tom Brady, Steve Foley, the entire Broncos D-Line, etc. all prove that with proper coaching, even an underachieving, seemingly busted player can do well. RIght now, its impossible to say whether the problem is Capers or the players. We can get rid of Capers, but we can't get rid of all the players. Lets hope its the former.


Though coaching can do a lot, I am not sure that the success of those players is soley due to coaching. Often, good things happen to players who are put in better situations, surrounded by quality depth and experienced players.

For example, the coach of the Bronco's D-Line has said that they thought that those former Browns players would be better if they could rotate in, and not have to expend maximum effort for an entire game. So a Gerard Warren can look like a "hard worker" in Denver rather than the "inconsistent lazy" guy he was in Cleveland because there is more depth at that position and he doesn't have to play every snap. The coaches created a situation for them to excel, but also had the luxury of some depth to create that environment.

Tom Brady succeeds in New England because the team he was on had quality, smart experienced players that could help support him--does he succeed if he were the #1 pick of an expansion team?

I am not saying that coaching doesn't matter. But being surrounded by experienced deep talent can help nuture player development a lot easier than being thrown into a situation where you are pulling pieces and parts together from the draft and other's salary cap casulties and trying to put together a team. The core of some team's lines have been together longer than our franchise's existence.

There are so few can't miss guys in the league. Guys so good that they can go into a recently created team and instantly excel. We've drafted a few of them and got a few other in F.A. Can't miss O line guys are the hardest to get because not every draft has them, few can succeed immediately and especially without mentoring of experienced great players, and most of them have gnarly things in their medical histories because of what they do so when you pick em, you got to hope and pray they hold up.

I actually have a lot of empathy for the coaching and personnel staff, as unpopular as this opinion may be. It is hard to build a team from scratch--it is much easier being a Phil Jackson and keep going where the talent is. It is really easy to figure out what the problems are but hard to address them from a real world, salary cap perspective. I know everybody says Oline this or that, but it is easier to spot the offensive playmakers and make a bigger impact on winning to shore up the defense, then to take a chance on an Olinemen who may or may not be a world beater when he is not surrounded by other great linemen and maybe has a history of ghouly injuries.

Travis Johnson wasn't a popular pick at all, but given Gary Walker's history, it was something I guess they felt they needed to do. The biggest difference between this season and previous couple ones is that our defense is really struggling.

I read a lot of posts here and often agree with some of the criticism of stuff, an 0-5 team is easy to find problems with, but rarely do I find posts of real world solutions to stuff that I agree with. Yeah, you can't fire the team, you can only fire coaches, I just hope that whatever we do isn't stupid or shortsighted because that is what panic can often produce.

Keldar
10-18-2005, 11:09 PM
See.....I just don't think our talent is that good after all. This year has really opened my eyes to some stinky players. I'm gonna put my opinion out on a limb, and list all Texans players that I feel would start for a majority of other teams.

Chris Brown
Chad Stanley
David Carr
Domanick Davis
Andre Johnson
Dunta Robinson

(crickets)

(crickets)

See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.

gtexan02
10-18-2005, 11:15 PM
See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.

I think you're wrong, though, but I respect your opinion. The rest of our team would definitely never rank in the top 10 players at their position, but would definitely start on any number of teams.

For example, Coleman could start at FS, Walker, Payne, and Smith could all start for other teams, Norris is a starting quality FB, Wiegart and Pitts are both starting caliber Gs, Wade was a starting quality Tackle (until we altered him), Greenwood is a starter (started for one of the best Ds last year in Miami).

Bassinguy
10-18-2005, 11:41 PM
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? In the upcoming draft we need to trade our 1st pick in the draft away for the 3rd or 4th pick, pick up an extra 2nd rounder or an extra 1st for next year, and draft the best LT in the draft. We then drop McKinney, and sign a proven center. We then start Rookie Pitts FA Wiegart Wade, and with good coaching, I promise you this line could perform very well. Look at Pittsburg, Grimm turned a bunch of no names into one of the best lines in the league. Look at Indy, that OL coach is famous, and he worked miracles. Manning hasnt been touched all season. The point Im trying to make is that there is no reason to spend more than our top pick on OL. With ANY FA acquisitions (and I odn't mean Riley type aditions--good players. And if we pick up a good, expensive LT from another team we wouldnt even have to use our 1st pick) we could turn our poor oline into above average.

Then I believe we already are scheduled to have 2 2nd day choices, so I say we pick defense and TE. There is no longer a need to draft WR. With a legitimate TE and the more improved Gaffney, plus the maturing mathis, we could easily drop bradford and still have a decent receiving corps. PLUS, elite WRs become FAs every single season. Coles, Moss, TO, S. Moss, Burress, Mason, Muhammad, have all switched teams recently, and it wouldn't be hard for us to get someone of their caliber. Anyway, I think this is a coaching issue first and foremost. We have talented players. i STILL think Babin and Pburnt have capabilities. I mean, look at where Pburnt went from - Norv turner to Dom Capers---no wonder he looks burnt. With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!
Tell me where to buy whatever it is you're smoking. The o-line is a shambles, and the defense needs more than 1 or 2 players to revive it, also. Of course, a coaching staff change might revive everyone.

touttail
10-19-2005, 06:02 AM
Though coaching can do a lot, I am not sure that the success of those players is soley due to coaching. .

It's not soley on the coaches but, if you have a sharp coach that has the teams respect, the team will put out 110% for him. If you have a dumb@$$ coach who has no respect, the team will lay down and NOT produce for him. This is what has happened in the Texan organization. :texans:

bobby 119C :brickwall

BlueBlood
10-19-2005, 06:06 AM
You guys have fantastic talent. And I assure you the Colts are not taking this game lightly. You guys are due for a break out performance. And we have teams very emotionally into beating us now.

I think you have a very good team - but your coaches suck, you need new ones. Heck even we punted Fangio out of town once for stinking the place up.

Theres a joke around here - give Fangio enough pro-bowlers and he will put together a pretty decent team.

Good luck! (when not playing The Blue)

rittenhouserobz
10-19-2005, 06:19 AM
The Texans have retained some talent, but they have let much more slip away. The one move Casserly didn't make that saved the day. Trading away the Texans first round picks for the next two years to get Orlando Pace. There is no doubt we would have gotten the bad end of that deal. Just like the P-buc deal.

Anyway, I think the Texans will go 0-16 if they contunie with their current playing philosophy. You have to fgure that if the coach does not turn these guys around soon, then once we hit say 0-11 or 0-12 this team will already be making there January vaction plans. They will be at the final games in body but not in spirit. So I say the next 4-5 games are crucial to us winning a game this year.

outofhnd
10-19-2005, 07:00 AM
we didnt have talent to begin with we got peoples leftovers.

Sharper didnt look sensational against us, Glenn has given up plays for the cowboys. they are serviceable starters no real talent.

The talent we lost Steve Foley and Jeff Posey. thats about it...

Gary Walker has not made it thru a single season after '02 without getting injured. Seth Payne is serviceable but not really a talented D lineman... TJ has potential, but has not altered his high approach. relying on upper body strength, not getting lower and driving with his legs. Robaire is our one of our few free agent talents.

Linebackers, we have Peek, Anderson I think is good as well. Greenwood reminds me of foreman. always around the ball but never making the tackle.

Corners Dunta A fabulous Corner, Buchanon hot and cold not physical enough for my liking he tries to be a finesse corner. Faggins a backup anywhere else gets turned around way to easily and relys on the receiver more than instinct.

Safeties, CC brown looks good at times but hes not an intimidating strong safety. Coleman plays a decent free safety.

QB Carr is talent

WR - Only AJ would be a starter anywhere else... Gaff, Bradford, Armstrong all 3rd and 4th receivers... Mathis looks like he has loads of talent. just lacks knowledge of the routes.

TE - no talent Miller was terrible and the only reason he looked halfway decent is because no one else at the time looked good at all.

OL - Pitts is talent, Hogdon looks like a better center than McKinney, who cant even block a man 1 on 1. Wiegart plays tentative and afraid of injury. Wand could prolly play better guard than Wiegart. Wade absolutely a waste of money after what I have seen this year. So i Would keep Hogdon Pitts and Wand. Lose McKinney Wiegart and Wade. Riley can play RT for less money.

RB DD is awesome Morency looks like a versatile backup.

But on any other team only carr AJ and Pitts would start offensively.

Defensively, Robaire, D Rob, greenwood (maybe) and a healthy Wong would start.

Its not coaching its the aging vets on the team just here collecting a check with no young talent behind them to make them work to keep their job. Witha lineman intensive draft this year, We will improve dramatically. its amazing how good our line will block when our lineman are afraid they will get cut.

billtxus
10-19-2005, 08:55 AM
San Diego replaced their ENTIRE OL last year, and had a great year. Why should it take multiple years to solve the problem? Why can't these coaches get better results out of the guys they have. Last two years the line was doing better, why is it now worse? Could it be the other teams have figured out what Capers is doing, and Capers hasn't adjusted? He's never been particularly good at making half-time adjustments.

I remember seeing an interview with Parcells a few years ago. He said he had to make major changes to his offense and defense schemes at least three times a year to stay ahead of the opposing coaches. Maybe Capers needs to put in a bit more work.

Texans Horror
10-19-2005, 09:04 AM
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!


I don't want to go so far as to say that we have great raw talent on this team, but I have felt for a while that Pendry is more of a problem because this guy was the O-line coach. We raised the level of responsibility for a coach who was destroying one of the most lackluster lines in the NFL. Why Wand was removed, I still don't get, but I think that the Coach proved himself incompetent earlier, and now he's proving his promotion was another inept move.

Tulip
10-19-2005, 09:24 AM
The Texans have much more talent than performance indicates. We aren't going to see improvement until the coaching changes or they change coaches.

Texans_Chick
10-19-2005, 02:16 PM
San Diego replaced their ENTIRE OL last year, and had a great year. Why should it take multiple years to solve the problem? Why can't these coaches get better results out of the guys they have. Last two years the line was doing better, why is it now worse? Could it be the other teams have figured out what Capers is doing, and Capers hasn't adjusted? He's never been particularly good at making half-time adjustments.

I remember seeing an interview with Parcells a few years ago. He said he had to make major changes to his offense and defense schemes at least three times a year to stay ahead of the opposing coaches. Maybe Capers needs to put in a bit more work.

A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.

2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.

3. The SD Oline escaped the 2004 season without any significant injuries. Makes a big difference. You make your own luck to some degree and then you just need some.

Maybe different coaching would lead to better results. Certainly continuity on the line helps, but it is hard to grow that when maybe you don't have the best pieces and parts to do that. And when one of your best lineman keeps getting hurt.

Ideally, you wouldn't have wanted to do the massive Oline shakeup that we did prior to the Seahawks game. Making such a huge change in a noisy environment seems like a recipe for failure. But I guess they felt that desperate times called for desperate measures. From the previous games, it didn't look like there was much good stuff to build on.

And then Weigert gets hurt. Everytime I look at Capers after yet another bad thing happens, I have this running song going through my head.....


Gloom, despair, agony on me, Woe!
Deep dark depression excessive misery, Woe!
If it weren’t for bad luck I’d have no luck at all, Woe!
Gloom, despair, agony on me!

Ibar_Harry
10-19-2005, 02:22 PM
A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.

2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.

3. The SD Oline escaped the 2004 season without any significant injuries. Makes a big difference. You make your own luck to some degree and then you just need some.

Maybe different coaching would lead to better results. Certainly continuity on the line helps, but it is hard to grow that when maybe you don't have the best pieces and parts to do that. And when one of your best lineman keeps getting hurt.

Ideally, you wouldn't have wanted to do the massive Oline shakeup that we did prior to the Seahawks game. Making such a huge change in a noisy environment seems like a recipe for failure. But I guess they felt that desperate times called for desperate measures. From the previous games, it didn't look like there was much good stuff to build on.

And then Weigert gets hurt. Everytime I look at Capers after yet another bad thing happens, I have this running song going through my head.....


Gloom, despair, agony on me, Woe!
Deep dark depression excessive misery, Woe!
If it weren’t for bad luck I’d have no luck at all, Woe!
Gloom, despair, agony on me!

I think the O-line coach might have something to do with it.

eriadoc
10-19-2005, 02:27 PM
I think the O-line coach might have something to do with it.

The O-line coach? Or the offensive coordinator? :ok:

:lol:

infantrycak
10-19-2005, 02:35 PM
2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.

Actually last year proved LT does need an OL. Even though his team had a more than legitimate passing game for the 1st time in his career (which should have made his rushing easier) his rushing average went dramatically down--5.3 yds to 3.9 yds (the same thing DD averaged last year coincidentally--which in no way means DD is just as good as LT). This year the running game is coming back together (4.9 ypc), but that gelling thing does count and every RB needs a decent OL. And for the record, LT is IMO the best RB in the league.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 02:35 PM
A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.
They have a decent LT in Roman Oben who has 128 career starts. We need a LT and we need to draft one early unless you want another Wand-like project who will take 3 years to pan out...if he pans out.

Texans_Chick
10-19-2005, 02:59 PM
They have a decent LT in Roman Oben who has 128 career starts. We need a LT and we need to draft one early unless you want another Wand-like project who will take 3 years to pan out...if he pans out.

An experienced guy acquired by trade. 3rd round pick.

We tried to get some experienced Oline guys by trading for them and so far it is looking non-good for the good guys.

I am torn on this subject. On one hand, if there is a can't miss Oline guy that we need to get early in the draft to get, I would like to get him. But if there is a better quality guy that still fills one of our numerous needs on other parts of the team, I'd find it hard to pass that up. It is funny how some of the recent top quality projected LT from the draft aren't even playing that position in the NFL yet.

Once it gets closer to draft time, I will really pay attention to that, but I would hate to draft for need to get an Oline guy that may or may not pan out, then miss one of those can't miss miracle players that might be available to us.

Lots of ways to build an offensive line--we just haven't yet.

rmartin65
10-19-2005, 03:10 PM
See.....I just don't think our talent is that good after all. This year has really opened my eyes to some stinky players. I'm gonna put my opinion out on a limb, and list all Texans players that I feel would start for a majority of other teams.

Chris Brown
Chad Stanley
David Carr
Domanick Davis
Andre Johnson
Dunta Robinson

(crickets)

(crickets)

See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.
Mathis would get a shot as a KR

eriadoc
10-19-2005, 03:17 PM
Actually last year proved LT does need an OL. Even though his team had a more than legitimate passing game for the 1st time in his career (which should have made his rushing easier) his rushing average went dramatically down--5.3 yds to 3.9 yds (the same thing DD averaged last year coincidentally--which in no way means DD is just as good as LT). This year the running game is coming back together (4.9 ypc), but that gelling thing does count and every RB needs a decent OL. And for the record, LT is IMO the best RB in the league.

Actually, LT played with a groin injury all season long, which hampered his production slightly, as well as gave Chatman some playtime as a backup. The SD line is a group of relatively unknowns (Oben notwithstanding) that work well together as a team. Soon, they may be known as a stud OL, so the question always comes up - chicken or egg?

Regardless, building a team from the outside in is a bad idea.

Ibar_Harry
10-19-2005, 03:36 PM
The O-line coach? Or the offensive coordinator? :ok:

:lol:

I believe the O-line coach is considered one of the best in the business. He's also paid well.

mean mark8
10-19-2005, 03:45 PM
According to FOXSports, we have the most highly overpaid OL in the game. Our payroll is also the 3rd highest in the league. Mr. McNair is not getting what he's paying for. How easy should a GM's job be if his owner is willing to have the 3rd highest payroll in the league? Yet our coaches and GM put out the product we see.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168

Texans_Chick
10-19-2005, 04:09 PM
Lets just get an LT. Look, in 2004, we moved the ball relativley well without any protection what-so-ever, at least up until week 13. Maybe we can get a good TE in the 2nd round or FA. For the most part, we need someone that we can build around. Carr can pick a team apart given proper protection.

I am not sure yet if the "right" guy is in the early rounds of the draft as an LT--they are not fungible. I'm just saying, instead of the blanket statement--we need an LT in the first round of the draft--I'd rather get whatever mix of players is the best for the team over all. If the Oline stud is there, go get him, if not, don't just try to overdraft for a guy just to say look we addressed it if he isn't someone who you think will be somebody to build around.

You'd hate to be the team who was in the position to take a dynamic instant all-pro guy, and instead took a lineman who may or may not pan out. Just because of the nature of the position, the best athletes do not usually gravitate there--so they are a little harder to project.

eriadoc
10-19-2005, 04:24 PM
I believe the O-line coach is considered one of the best in the business. He's also paid well.

Hmmm ... I seem to be smiley-challenged. Even when I use them, the underlying meaning is missed. I was referring to Pendry and being very tongue-in-cheek about it.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 06:38 PM
Hmmm ... I seem to be smiley-challenged. Even when I use them, the underlying meaning is missed. I was referring to Pendry and being very tongue-in-cheek about it.No, basically you were just Ibar'd!

Vinny
10-19-2005, 06:46 PM
I am not sure yet if the "right" guy is in the early rounds of the draft as an LT--they are not fungible. I'm just saying, instead of the blanket statement--we need an LT in the first round of the draft--I'd rather get whatever mix of players is the best for the team over all. If the Oline stud is there, go get him, if not, don't just try to overdraft for a guy just to say look we addressed it if he isn't someone who you think will be somebody to build around.

You'd hate to be the team who was in the position to take a dynamic instant all-pro guy, and instead took a lineman who may or may not pan out. Just because of the nature of the position, the best athletes do not usually gravitate there--so they are a little harder to project.Good post on top and I totally agree with that, but on your second point I'd like to point out that historically linemen are the one position that is easiest to grade tangibly at the top of the draft. There is a higher chance that you will get a player that matches his draft grade with elite offensive linemen than you do with other players, especially skill guys in the top 10.

BadBobTx
10-19-2005, 06:59 PM
we got the talent a lot of its injured . Time we went to a Hurry up offense with Carr in shotgun . That way he will have about 2 seconds longer to throw and hell we might catch the defense with too many men on field . really tired of same 6 plays and no TD'S

BadBobTx
10-19-2005, 07:00 PM
:texflag: :texflag: we got the talent a lot of its injured . Time we went to a Hurry up offense with Carr in shotgun . That way he will have about 2 seconds longer to throw and hell we might catch the defense with too many men on field . really tired of same 6 plays and no TD'S

Texans_Chick
10-19-2005, 08:33 PM
Good post on top and I totally agree with that, but on your second point I'd like to point out that historically linemen are the one position that is easiest to grade tangibly at the top of the draft. There is a higher chance that you will get a player that matches his draft grade with elite offensive linemen than you do with other players, especially skill guys in the top 10.

Well said--I will say that I'm glad we got AJ and not Charles Rogers.

I just get a little freaked taking an Olineman up high--is that particular guy worth it relative to the skills guys. Grading them relative to each other I understand but grading them relative to the skills guys is kinda apples and oranges. I just hope after the poking and proding and video stuff there is a hafta have Olinemen coming.

outofhnd
10-20-2005, 09:05 AM
We just need to do what Paul McGuire said top do get 5 young guys and put em out there and let em play.

We have way to much veteran lineman that are not pushed to perform or lose thier job because we have no young talent on the O line to replace them.. they know this so why try?when someones job is threatened they perform.

I thought Hogdon did rather well.McKinney Wiegart and wade are the problems Riley looked significantly better at RT. We are a team that practices flawlessly but on gameday our againg lineman play not to get hurt more than they play with reckless abandon... with the backups we have its bascially David might get killed.. Replace the line with young players leave one veteran which now is pitts

Texans Horror
10-20-2005, 09:18 AM
Our linemen are quasi-gummi at best. While there is some talent there, I don't think it is being used well. And right now the entire team is looking like a bunch of enervate behemoths. Somebody needs to energize them, and I don't think it's going to be the fans (sorry, McNair) or the coaches (sorry, Capers). That is one of the reasons they cannot make it out of the AFC South basement.

tampacoltfan
10-20-2005, 12:00 PM
Hello Texan fans, I normally don't post to others message boards but do read them alot.
I am a fan of all AFC South Teams except when the colts play them. Lived in Indy for 50+ years.
First, you will survive this, we did, look at mannings first year and the fans where calling for his head. It was uuuuuggglllyyyy.
David Carr in my opinion is a very good young quarterback, but he has to run for his life on every play. He needs help. I have watched as many of your games as I can. I personally thought you would be giving us a run for the playoffs starting last year.
Indy changed coaches a couple of times and made alot of changes on the o-l and added several receivers. It is now a good 'package' Stop one or two or three and there is still 4 and 5. David Carr does not have that and he needs it in the current enviroment in the league. Espn said it right ' Houston's o-l lookes like a revolving door"
Maybe coaches and some players need taken out behind the woodshed. Fans deserve what they pay for and the loyality they give the team.
Good luck Sunday. I support the Texans when they play all others. Great Cheerleaders.
I hope the Colts win large, but next week I hope you beat the Browns 50-0.
Keep the faith.
GO AFC SOUTH, GO COLTS

Runner
10-20-2005, 02:00 PM
Indy changed coaches a couple of times and made alot of changes on the o-l and added several receivers.

Changing coaches can make a big difference. I think our coaches are so set in their philosophy and style they just can't think flexibly enough to change things around to (1) take advantage of what our players do well and (2) cover up those things they don't.

The players and coaches have to fit each other, and it's pretty clear they don't here. With the salary cap and player contracts, it's easier to replace coaches then revamp a team into a coaches image. It appears that will be the first step in our get well plan.