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mancunian
10-17-2005, 03:16 PM
When a new HC comes in what are the chances he'll move to a 4 -3 Defence?

And if that is going to happen could we do it now?

If all were fit I'd move Smith inside to DT as he played there with the Titans, alongside Payne, Johnson and Walker at DE, move Greenwood back outside. Now that Wong has gone for the year put Polk in the middle. The rest up for grabs.

With Smith and Payne inside it might stop debacles like last night.

Texas
10-17-2005, 03:19 PM
I agree the 4-3 would be alot smarter but not until the end of the season and not until we go ahead and make the player changes that are coming. Basically we've been working on the 3-4 and trying to get it down so switching in the midst off a season wouldnt do any good now. However next season when we make our player transitions, i think would be a good idea.

mancunian
10-17-2005, 03:22 PM
in the draft do you go for OLine or DLine.....I'd go OLine ...we done nothing for 4 years on that

rmartin65
10-17-2005, 03:27 PM
oline

keyfro
10-17-2005, 03:45 PM
the chances of the new HC going to the 4-3 or a version of it is probably very good...we have the DT's for it...smith and johnson are both classic DT's for that system...i see walker being released after this season and payne being put in a rotational role with johnson...peek and babin will have to move back to DE's...the only problem is they are both way undersized for DE's in that scheme...both will have to either add weigth to be DE's or lose weight to be LB's...the problems we'll face in switching to a 4-3 is we don't have an every down DE and we don't have a classic MLB...we'll have to draft both or look to FA for one...this draft is filled with a bunch of DE's...Penn state's hali is very underrated...but either way we'll be hurting for awhile on defense...time to bring in an offensive minded head coach to help restructure this offense and progress carr

SESupergenius
10-17-2005, 03:47 PM
We were starting to get our groove at the tail end of the season last year and but then we get that yanked out from under us in the off season when we let go of Sharper, Glenn, McCree, Wright etc... We lack continuity in this system as we have not had a group of guys playing together hardly at all, each year its been at least 6 position changes from the year before. That's not good no matter how you look at it.

Imagine if our coaches, scouts, and front office had done a better job in the offseason:

Walker Payne R. Smith (Castillo to groom)

Babin Sharper Bell Wong

Glenn D. Robinson (Wright as nickel)

K. Kennedy M. Coleman

With our 2nd pick imagine having K. Barnes (OT) or O. Thruman (ILB)? Our defense was a couple of players away from being a solid unit. That collapsed in the offseason with so many changes to our defense. We could have added a LT in the 2nd round and at least have a decent season for a change with the 3-4. Now it's in shambles.

TexansAllTheWayBaby
10-17-2005, 04:37 PM
This year still has alot of games left.

We cannot give up, I will wont give up until 16 games have been completed, then i'll stay positive about the next year, but not until this one is finished.

I truly belive we have some postivies attached to our team, and we can turn this tide, and finish strong.

Im always going to stick with this team, through the downs and ups. Unlike some people on these boards

Go Texans

eriadoc
10-17-2005, 04:45 PM
I really haven't seen a good argument to move to a 4-3 defense from anyone yet. People keep pointing out how this defense is not doing the things it's touted to do, but that's not the 3-4 defense - that is OUR screwed up version of the 3-4 defense. The 3-4 works as well as the 4-3, if we play it properly.

That said, I don't really care if we switch to 4-3 because, as I said, each works as well as the other. The coaching staff we have in place would get no more production from a 4-3 than they get from the 3-4. Oh, by the way ....... this team plays 4-man fronts, with three linebackers, quite a bit. That would be 4-3.

TEXANRED
10-17-2005, 04:54 PM
If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.

Now the problem, we dont have any pass rushers to play outside linebacker(whats the diff?) so now we trade our whole draft to the tittans to move up two spots to get the best backup linebacker, ever.

infantrycak
10-17-2005, 05:18 PM
If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.

I keep seeing people that want to bench Payne--all I can say is huh? Payne is the best DLmen we have going right now.

BringItOn
10-17-2005, 06:06 PM
Schemes are overrated -- players are underrated. The Texans simply don't have the players to put a good defense together. I'm not against a 4-3 per se (there's no way they could be worse), but they'd have to spend a lot of draft picks on it.

Maybe Peek or Babin could be a quality 4-3 DE starter, but you would need to get a big body to play the other side or you'd pay for it against the run. The MLB and SLB positions could probably be filled with players on the team, but there's no one on the team who could be more than a mediorce WLB. To me, WLB and DE are the key positions to running a good 4-3 and that's where the questions would be.

The reason I would be against the move next year is because of the offense. The Texans have drafted only 1 quality starter in 4 years for the O-Line and the whole team has paid the price. Since this is supposedly the richest group of tackles in many years and though it may not be sexy, I would spend at least 2 first day picks on O-Line.

TheOgre
10-17-2005, 06:07 PM
If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.

Now the problem, we dont have any pass rushers to play outside linebacker(whats the diff?) so now we trade our whole draft to the tittans to move up two spots to get the best backup linebacker, ever.

Peek and Babin are way too small to play LDE and might be too small to play RDE too. They could definitely come in on passing downs though.

ledzeppelin229
10-17-2005, 06:31 PM
The 3-4 isn't the problem...it works for plenty of teams. This same garbage defense isn't going to suddenly start working better just because the scheme is changed.

infantrycak
10-17-2005, 06:39 PM
The 3-4 isn't the problem...it works for plenty of teams. This same garbage defense isn't going to suddenly start working better just because the scheme is changed.

See that is where I disagree. It won't suddenly improve from a radical change to a system requiring different personnel like a 4-3, but it could improve greatly by going to a Phillips style aggressive 3-4. These players have nowhere to go but up from where they are now. Save their spirit for next year by letting them play an aggressive system rather than this read and react cover 2 zone barely ever blitz BS.

ledzeppelin229
10-17-2005, 06:42 PM
I agree completely a smaller scheme change could improve things. What we've doing now is clearly not working. My point was that changing to a 4-3 isn't going to be our savior unless we get new coaches, new players, all kind of new stuff.

Bubbajwp
10-17-2005, 06:52 PM
IMO the reason we should switch to a 4-3 is we have four good defensive lineman. G Walker, S Payne, R Smith, TJ.

We only have three servicable linebackers. Greenwood, Peek, Babin.

I know we dont have the players to fit a 4-3 but we need to change somthing.

infantrycak
10-17-2005, 06:54 PM
My point was that changing to a 4-3 isn't going to be our savior unless we get new coaches, new players, all kind of new stuff.

Then we are in absolute agreement. Either system works very well with proper player selection, effective coaching, and proper execution--either fails without. JMO but this is McNair's toughest decision--is the personnel that wrong for a 3-4? If so, go ahead and burn the whole thing down and get whatever HC you want and start from ground up. If the personnel really isn't that wrong and the screwed up, overly passive Fangio schemes are largely to blame, then burn Fangio and Co. out and bring in a 3-4 guy with some fire.

Now total aside here but an observation. Many people are enamoured of Jimmy Johnson. He ran a real smart, efficient O headed by Aikman with a pro-bowl line--built because he wanted it that way. He ran a fiery, attacking, turnover causing, fast D, because he wanted it that way. Wonderlic scores consistantly have the smarter scores on O and not so much on D. So why are we trying to run such a complex D and a simple O? Time to pin the ears back on D and on O try reacting to the D. When Sharper gives you the gift of their game plan--put 8 or 9 in to stop DD--then stick 4 or oh my god even 5 WR's in to get them out of their game plan.

SESupergenius
10-17-2005, 06:59 PM
Vinny will argue that the coachin staff is dumbing down the system because Carr can't handle it. I'm perplexed as to why we didn't use 4 or 5 wr sets. On long plays we used 3 wr sets and even when we were down by 20 we were using 2 wr sets. That's just crazy.

I say spread it out and start demading guys to know the playbook, know their checkoffs and know their adjustments. Hold the players accountable and do as Parcells does and call them out, they are men, they can take it.

ledzeppelin229
10-17-2005, 07:02 PM
I think we give a new coach a shot before we tear down any semblance of a foundation. Let the new staff decide who is worth keeping and who needs to be shown the door. This staff has had plenty of time to get guys they think will be effective in their system, and the track record isn't pretty.

infantrycak
10-17-2005, 07:06 PM
I think we give a new coach a shot before we tear down any semblance of a foundation. Let the new staff decide who is worth keeping and who needs to be shown the door. This staff has had plenty of time to get guys they think will be effective in their system, and the track record isn't pretty.

This is going to be a HUGE decision for McNair. I may start a new thread about it later this evening. McNair is going to have to make a fundamental choice. Do I like a potential coach more than I like my current personnel? In other words, do I look for any new HC or only one who will play a 3-4 because I have underutilized talent suited for a 3-4?

infantrycak
10-17-2005, 07:10 PM
Vinny will argue that the coachin staff is dumbing down the system because Carr can't handle it. I'm perplexed as to why we didn't use 4 or 5 wr sets. On long plays we used 3 wr sets and even when we were down by 20 we were using 2 wr sets. That's just crazy.

See here is why I didn't understand Pendry's playcalling--It isn't anymore complex to run out of 4 or 5 WR's. Just tell your QB to ignore all but 2--he is making the same reads. The point is you spread the D out. They were clearly all set to stuff DD. Try something other than a heavy formation if you have 8+ in the box. Seems to me the coaching staff is dumbing down.

ledzeppelin229
10-17-2005, 07:25 PM
I think the players we have, have some ability. The coaches apparently didn't see much in Steve Foley, yet he gets ten sacks in San Diego's defense. The coaches don't understand how to make a scheme fit the players they have. They just try to make players play their scheme whether it's the most effective way or not.

I'm also tired of seeing how passive our entire team is. Everyone seems so lethargic and uninspired. Capers seems to be the primary cause of it.

Bubbajwp
10-17-2005, 08:45 PM
Warning long post.

First
I would like to say I want us to switch to a 4-3 defense. I like the 3-4 defense but we dont blitze enough. If you watch the steelers or the cowboys they blitz 4,5,6, guys every play.

Second
IMO it would take the Texans just as long to get the players for a 4-3 defense as it will take them to fix our 3-4 defense. With the loss of Wong we now have 0 playmaking linebackers. None of our OLB (including Peek) can pressure the QB. If Wong fully recovers from his injury we still need 3 new linebackers. To switch to a 4-3 we would need 2 DE and 1-2 linebackers.

Third
I hate to say it but if we do switch to a 4-3 we should pass on D'brick.
If we have a top three pick in the draft I think we could get two first rounders one this year and one next year plus a second rounder this year. If the team doesnt agree to the trade try just getting two first rounders. If the dont agree try one first rounder and one second rounder Ill say we get both first rounders and a second rounder because of Matt Lienart, Reggie Bush, and D'Brick.

Fourth
This is how I would switch to a 4-3 defense and fix the oline using the draft.
Round 1 OLB - AJ Hawk(I cant explain with words how bad I want Dbrick)
Round 2a C - Greg Eslinger - Minnesota
Round 2b LG - Davin Joseph - Oklahoma
Round 3a TE - Tim Day - Oregon
Round 3b MLB - Spencer Havner - UCLA
Round 4 DE - Thomas Carrol - Miami
Round 5 LG - Will Allen - UT
Round 6 CB - Antwaan Allen - Iowa
Round 7 QB - Tye Gunn - TCU

We get a LT and a DE in free agency.

Offense
LT - Free agency
LG - Davin Joseph
C - Greg Eslinger
RG - Chester Pitts
RT - Riley, Wade, Wand whoever the coaches decide is best.
TE - Tim Day, Bennie Joppru depends on injury.
Defense
LE - Free agency
DT - Robaire Smith
DT - Seth Payne, TJ coaches decide who is better
RE - Peek, Babin, Thomas Carrol coaches decision
LOLB - AJ Hawk
MLB - Spencer Havner
ROLB -Wong, Greenwood depends on injury

OR

LOLB - Wong
MLB - AJ Hawk
ROLB - Greenwood

In the 2007 draft concentrate on LB, CB, S, QB, WR.
I hope Ahmad Brooks, Vince Young, Marcus Vick, Reggie Bush, Devin Hester, Mario Williams, Winston Justice, Omar Jacobs, Darnell Bing stay in school so we would have a chance at one or two of them next year. Remember we would have two first round picks. :astros: :astros: :astros: :hairpull:

eriadoc
10-18-2005, 12:21 AM
Well, point by point then ....

First
I would like to say I want us to switch to a 4-3 defense. I like the 3-4 defense but we dont blitze enough. If you watch the steelers or the cowboys they blitz 4,5,6, guys every play.

If you like that style of defense, then why not advocate a change to the Steelers style of the 3-4 defense?

Third
I hate to say it but if we do switch to a 4-3 we should pass on D'brick.
If we have a top three pick in the draft I think we could get two first rounders one this year and one next year plus a second rounder this year. If the team doesnt agree to the trade try just getting two first rounders. If the dont agree try one first rounder and one second rounder Ill say we get both first rounders and a second rounder because of Matt Lienart, Reggie Bush, and D'Brick.

This team needs defensive players, no doubt - especially with Walker's advancing age and increasingly frequent injury status. TJ is unproven and Wong's knee injury will likely keep him away from 100% through next season. That said, this team has needed offensive linemen since its inception. Passing on a franchise LT would be a mistake - whether it's Ferguson, Winston, or whoever is deemed to be a franchise-caliber LT.

Fourth
This is how I would switch to a 4-3 defense and fix the oline using the draft.
Round 1 OLB - AJ Hawk(I cant explain with words how bad I want Dbrick)
Round 2a C - Greg Eslinger - Minnesota
Round 2b LG - Davin Joseph - Oklahoma
Round 3a TE - Tim Day - Oregon
Round 3b MLB - Spencer Havner - UCLA
Round 4 DE - Thomas Carrol - Miami
Round 5 LG - Will Allen - UT
Round 6 CB - Antwaan Allen - Iowa
Round 7 QB - Tye Gunn - TCU

We get a LT and a DE in free agency.

Teams do not let franchise LTs go in free agency. LTs like Victor Riley, Ross Verba, and Todd Wade are allowed into free agency. It's easy to say we can fix it in free agency - the reality is, it won't happen. Take LT in the first round.

The bottom line is really the performance of our players. It isn't the 3-4, 4-3, 3-3-5, or 10-1 defense. We play 3-man and 4-man fronts quite a bit already. Our execution and/or defensive calls within the 3-4 is the problem. Other teams run the 3-4 with much success. Of course, they don't have Fangio's style of 3-4.

royce1054
10-18-2005, 08:08 AM
I would like the 46 then i look at the players on our D and cry. Then i look at the O and say damn our D is good.

BigBull17
10-18-2005, 08:46 AM
See here is why I didn't understand Pendry's playcalling--It isn't anymore complex to run out of 4 or 5 WR's. Just tell your QB to ignore all but 2--he is making the same reads. The point is you spread the D out. They were clearly all set to stuff DD. Try something other than a heavy formation if you have 8+ in the box. Seems to me the coaching staff is dumbing down.
No they are just dumb...

TheOgre
10-18-2005, 09:07 AM
I wouldn't mind if they found a new coach that wanted to use an aggressive 3-4 scheme. Our talent is built for that style. I am just guessing that McNair and Casserly might want to go with a more traditional 4-3, since this team has struggled with the 3-4. It could be a reaction to the current system's failures.

uhcougar08
10-18-2005, 12:05 PM
This is one of the worse defensive schemes I have ever seen, it is terrible to line up 3 against 5 and expect 2 middle linebackers to do something, while you have 2 DE standing up on the outside. Im happy for New England for getting this done, great job up there. This is horrible down here. But 4 to 5 guys on the ground and get in the backfield. 4-3 all the way.

Coach C.
10-18-2005, 12:11 PM
I love the 3-4. Also for those people that dont know football we are lining up in alot of 4-3 sets already. The 3-4 is a great defense when ran properly. Hey it has stolen 2 wins for Cleveland and 1 for SF, not to mention the championship team 3 of the last 4 years.

texan279
10-18-2005, 12:21 PM
If we do switch to a 4-3 IMO it will just take us that much longer to see improvement as a team. Cleveland switched to the 3-4 this season and look how they have done so far. Baltimore went to the 4-6 and it's got them nothing. I will admit, Dallas went from a 4-3 to 3-4 and have improved, but they had a good draft and had to focus on defense in the draft. The thing about the 3-4 is what you are actually doing is disguising your 4th rusher, but how often does Fangio send that 4th rusher? I know our LB's are not elite, but they are faster than last season. I think if we saw more aggressive playcalling from Fangio and more man to man coverage from our DB's we could see success with the 3-4 with the players we have. But when your DB's are 5-8 yards off the line of scrimmage and you put your LB's into coverage majority of the time, I could see how opposition could take advantage either by running or passing the ball.

HardKnockTexan
10-18-2005, 12:42 PM
Switching to a 4-3 sounds very tempting due to the horrible performance of our defense so far this season.

Jason Babin - 6'2'' 259 lbs.
Antwan Peek - 6'3'' 238 lbs.
Dwight Freeney - 6'1'' 268 lbs.

So if we were to switch it looks like Babin does have the size to play down on the line. Peek would be left out of possition regardless if he is put down on the line or stays at linebacker. Neither are in Freeney's league but just comparing their size, Babin seems to be the ideal choice for RE.

That would give us Babin at rightend. Payne, Smith and Johnson at tackle and leave an open hole at the left end possition.

Our 2006 4-3 Defense:
RE - Jason Babin
DT - Robaire Smith
DT - Seth Payne / Travis Johnson
LE - Freeagent / Draft Pick
ROLB - Marlon Greenwood
ILB - Kieley Wong
LOLB - Freeagent / Draft Pick
CB - Dunta Robinson
CB - Freeagent / Damarcus Faggins / Draft Pick
FS - Marcus Coleman
SS - C.C. Brown / Glenn Earl / Freeagent / Draft Pick

texan279
10-18-2005, 12:48 PM
Switching to a 4-3 sounds very tempting due to the horrible performance of our defense so far this season.

Jason Babin - 6'2'' 259 lbs.
Antwan Peek - 6'3'' 238 lbs.
Dwight Freeney - 6'1'' 268 lbs.

So if we were to switch it looks like Babin does have the size to play down on the line. Peek would be left out of possition regardless if he is put down on the line or stays at linebacker. Neither are in Freeney's league but just comparing their size, Babin seems to be the ideal choice for RE.

That would give us Babin at rightend. Payne, Smith and Johnson at tackle and leave an open hole at the left end possition.

Our 2006 4-3 Defense:
RE - Jason Babin
DT - Robaire Smith
DT - Seth Payne / Travis Johnson
LE - Freeagent / Draft Pick
ROLB - Marlon Greenwood
ILB - Kieley Wong
LOLB - Freeagent / Draft Pick
CB - Dunta Robinson
CB - Freeagent / Damarcus Faggins / Draft Pick
FS - Marcus Coleman
SS - C.C. Brown / Glenn Earl / Freeagent / Draft Pick

So the way you have it setup, there are 8 holes needed to be filled via draft/free agency. The offensive line and TE position need a little attentoin also. And you are basing some of this on size alone. No one knows how any of these guys would fare in the 4-3, except for maybe Wong and Robaire who have played in the 4-3 before.

HardKnockTexan
10-18-2005, 12:53 PM
So the way you have it setup, there are 8 holes needed to be filled via draft/free agency. The offensive line and TE position need a little attentoin also. And you are basing some of this on size alone. No one knows how any of these guys would fare in the 4-3, except for maybe Wong and Robaire who have played in the 4-3 before.

I'm just speculating for hopes sake. Putting an undersized DE on the line could cause huge problems for the running game. So I know ability has A LOT to do with possitions people play, so does size. Our team is full of holes on both sides of the ball. Regardless if we switch to a 4-3 it looks like it will take a few years to field a team that fits any system.

Cincinnatikid
10-18-2005, 03:34 PM
I'm just speculating for hopes sake. Putting an undersized DE on the line could cause huge problems for the running game. So I know ability has A LOT to do with possitions people play, so does size. Our team is full of holes on both sides of the ball. Regardless if we switch to a 4-3 it looks like it will take a few years to field a team that fits any system.

You may also want to check on your size measurements and the accuracy of them. I know that peek was listed 238 previously but this year he is at least up to 250 which he is listed as. He was up in the 270's but lost some of that weight to keep more speed

Bubbajwp
10-18-2005, 04:58 PM
Well, point by point then ....



If you like that style of defense, then why not advocate a change to the Steelers style of the 3-4 defense?



This team needs defensive players, no doubt - especially with Walker's advancing age and increasingly frequent injury status. TJ is unproven and Wong's knee injury will likely keep him away from 100% through next season. That said, this team has needed offensive linemen since its inception. Passing on a franchise LT would be a mistake - whether it's Ferguson, Winston, or whoever is deemed to be a franchise-caliber LT.



Teams do not let franchise LTs go in free agency. LTs like Victor Riley, Ross Verba, and Todd Wade are allowed into free agency. It's easy to say we can fix it in free agency - the reality is, it won't happen. Take LT in the first round.

The bottom line is really the performance of our players. It isn't the 3-4, 4-3, 3-3-5, or 10-1 defense. We play 3-man and 4-man fronts quite a bit already. Our execution and/or defensive calls within the 3-4 is the problem. Other teams run the 3-4 with much success. Of course, they don't have Fangio's style of 3-4.

IMO we can have a effective 4-3 defense next season by doing what I said. I also think it would take more tha one year to find good passrushing OLB and Runstopping MLB to fit a 3-4.

I picked 2 offensive lineman and a TE in the first three rounds.
C Greg Eslinger, Davin Joseph, and TE Tim Day. Not to mention Will Allen later in the draft. I never said that the LT we sign in free agency had to be a superstar.

Which is why we get a new defensive coordinator and we would also have four new starters on defense. AJ Hawk, Spencer Havner, Thomas Carrol, DE from free agency.

touttail
10-18-2005, 05:01 PM
Capers :homer: said on the sportsradio610 radio show that they run the 4-3 sometimes. I haven't seen it if they have!

bobby 119C :brickwall

Bubbajwp
10-18-2005, 05:02 PM
Capers :homer: said on the sportsradio610 radio show that they run the 4-3 sometimes. I haven't seen it if they have!

bobby 119C :brickwall
Even if they do use a 4-3 its not a true 4-3. They just put peek and babin on the line of scrimage.