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View Full Version : To everyone getting upset by the "fire so and so" threads


gtexan02
10-12-2005, 06:38 PM
I really think the reason for all of these recently has been because our poor play is the result of one of two things:
1. We are badly coached OR
2. Our players have no talent

I for one hope its not #2, because I really, really like Andre Johnson, Davis, Robinson, Carr, etc. They really are "The Texans" if you think about. So please, before you get upset at people, realize at 0-4 either the coaching or the players need to change. I still believe in the players. I don't believe in the coaches.



PS: This sounds an awful lot like the "I support the troops"/Not the Leaders/Iraq debate lol

Bubbajwp
10-12-2005, 06:42 PM
I really think the reason for all of these recently has been because our poor play is the result of one of two things:
1. We are badly coached OR
2. Our players have no talent

I for one hope its not #2, because I really, really like Andre Johnson, Davis, Robinson, Carr, etc. They really are "The Texans" if you think about. So please, before you get upset at people, realize at 0-4 either the coaching or the players need to change. I still believe in the players. I don't believe in the coaches.



PS: This sounds an awful lot like the "I support the troops"/Not the Leaders/Iraq debate lol
The problem is bad coaching and not enough talent. The names you listed are all above average players. Except for maybe Carr we may never know how could he can be.

gtexan02
10-12-2005, 06:50 PM
I refuse to make any decisions about talent until I see this team play with good coaching. Would you have thought Steve Foley was capable of recording any sacks at all last year? And then he went off and led the team in sacks. I remember going to the first game against the Chargers and thinking to myself, "wow, this SD team is terrible! They are starting a OLB that we simply let go of for roster space" And then look what happened. Schottenheimer isnt even what I would consider to be a top tier coach.

Huge
10-12-2005, 06:51 PM
You're not this bad unless you've got both (bad coaching and lack of talent).

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 06:53 PM
You're not this bad unless you've got both (bad coaching and lack of talent).

Yeah I think that too at times, but I do not want to belive it.

eriadoc
10-12-2005, 06:54 PM
We can't have missed on talent this many times.

I posted in a different thread on this very topic. Winning teams get good production out of less than premium talent. We have a few guys that I think people would consider premium talent. We've not gotten premium production from those players. We have several players that would be in the "solid unknown starter" category for many NFL teams. We've not gotten starter-quality production out of them. We have had players leave here for other teams and perform well, according to their talent level, on other teams. Why didn't we see that production level while they were here? McCree, Wright, Foley ... just to name a few. All showed flashes of promise and were subsequently shown the door (or allowed to show themselves to the door).

There are several NFL teams that are starting 3rd year or younger, unknown players on their offensive line this year. They get good production from those players. The Colts have allowed Manning to be sacked once this year and they are starting two second-year unknowns. The Bengals lost both of their centers and had to completely reshuffle the interior of their line. They still manage to protect Palmer. The Chargers are playing three linemen in their 3rd year or less and protecting Brees well. The Browns are starting a youngster at center and Dilfer is looking like he might be their answer at QB, at least for a couple years.

Our offensive linemen are all in their 4th year or longer, save Hodgdon. Why are we not getting similar production? Did we miserably fail at picking 53 players? Would none of our 53 players start for other teams? I think the ones that have left here have shown that they can, despite not being premium talent. Why does Dunta Robinson cover one side of the field, regardless of where the other team's best WR plays? This past week Robinson covered Brandon Jones. Drew Bennett is their only WR threat to date - why wasn't D-Rob on him? Not talented enough to cover Bennett? Why do we ever ask Peek to do anything but go kill the QB? I understand that the LBs in a 3-4 scheme have other responsibilities, but his talent lies in getting upfield. Play to it.

We can't have missed on talent this much. If it happens a few times, you say the player was a bust. If it happens this often, you have to start looking elsewhere.

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 07:00 PM
Good stuff. :brickwall

Cincinnatikid
10-12-2005, 07:05 PM
exactly, the problem is the coaches coaching to a scheme that they made and it is set in stone. there is no improvization, no tinkering, no willingness to change to what they have. Dunta should be covering the number 1 man, Peek should be blitzing and playing at the line more, Wong and Greenwood are fast so they should be able to blitz more and play close to the line instead of making plays five yards down field. Its just bad utilization of talent that is there. I may overexaggerate what the potential of them may be but the coaches negate any of the potential. To be drafted a guy needs to have some talent at least, to stay in the NFL for multiple years means their talent needs to be even higher. This team really isnt as useless as many feel. The talent level really doesnt differ much from many other teams. Other teams and coaches just learn how to use their talent.

thegr8fan
10-12-2005, 07:08 PM
I am one of those people who is beyond tired of the 'knee jerk'- "fire everyone above the waterboy level" posts that inundate this board.

We fired Palmer. And you know what, we still LOST. Not once but twice. So all you MB experts who think that walking into the office tomorrow and telling Capers and Casserly to 'pack your gear', please tell me how this is going to directly result in the Texans winning a game in THIS season.

Firing anyone else, at this point and time, is not only INSANITY from a business perspective, but isn't going to actually RESOLVE anything.

I look at it from the other perspective. Capers, Casserly, and thier henchmen are NOT going to 'escape' that easily. If they mismanage the rest of the season, so be it. They can stand in front of the reporters and sports analyst experts and bear the brunt of the burden. They don't get to 'go on a vacation' while the Texans recover.

Firing anyone else is NOT going to 'get us on the winning track' tomorrow, or even next week. It is Insanity to think so. And it isn't going to give us a 'jump start' on rebuilding either. Only thing it will get a 'jump start' on is absolutely ensuring the #1 draft pick in next years draft.

So all you, wipe the slate clean, knee jerk reaction, MB experts, who keep crying for someone ELSE to get FIRED, can either shut up and stomach it, no matter how repulsive that is. Or you can keep whining like a bunch of kindergarten girls demanding that they get their way NOW.

But I for one am sick and tired of the 'I want it now' screaming children currently inhabiting this MB.

Grow up. And start acting like a Grown Up and remember All is NOT FAIR. Or just keep whimpering and whining about it some more. But don't think that everyone on this board is whining along with you. Cause they aren't.

There, you think VENTING is acceptable, so you shouldn't have any problem when I do so against some of the current MB's favorite subject.

gtexan02
10-12-2005, 07:40 PM
I am one of those people who is beyond tired of the 'knee jerk'- "fire everyone above the waterboy level" posts that inundate this board.

We fired Palmer. And you know what, we still LOST. Not once but twice. So all you MB experts who think that walking into the office tomorrow and telling Capers and Casserly to 'pack your gear', please tell me how this is going to directly result in the Texans winning a game in THIS season.



Don't you at least agree that it inspired the team a little? I mean, Carr is raving about how much more serious Pendry is thatn Palmer was.


Firing anyone else, at this point and time, is not only INSANITY from a business perspective, but isn't going to actually RESOLVE anything.


And how do you know this? Can you see the future? Midseason coaching changes are sometimes exactly what a team needs to spark them.



So all you, wipe the slate clean, knee jerk reaction, MB experts, who keep crying for someone ELSE to get FIRED, can either shut up and stomach it, no matter how repulsive that is. Or you can keep whining like a bunch of kindergarten girls demanding that they get their way NOW.

But I for one am sick and tired of the 'I want it now' screaming children currently inhabiting this MB.

Grow up. And start acting like a Grown Up and remember All is NOT FAIR. Or just keep whimpering and whining about it some more. But don't think that everyone on this board is whining along with you. Cause they aren't.

There, you think VENTING is acceptable, so you shouldn't have any problem when I do so against some of the current MB's favorite subject.

No need to get so upset. Whining about whining really never accomplishes much.


PS: What are you talking about when you "knee-jerk" reaction over and over again? A knee jerk reaction would be if we got beat one game and called for change. We have been struggling with solidifying an offensive line now since our inception in this league! If thats "knee-jerk" to you, I sure hope you don't rely on relfexes in your career.

thegr8fan
10-12-2005, 08:02 PM
Midseason coaching changes are sometimes exactly what a team needs to spark them. name me once when a head coach, offensive coordinator, and GM were fired mid season and it 'sparked them' into winning.

Name once when an offensive coordinator AND head coach were fired and it 'sparked' a team into WINS.

Just name one, that is all you need to do to prove to me that this could, by the widest stretch of the imagination, be an answer to a 'Winning method'.

Don't you at least agree that it inspired the team a little? I mean, Carr is raving about how much more serious Pendry is thatn Palmer was. no, I don't. And I'll be nice and let you into a little secret, I ain't looking for 'inspiration', I get that at a church. I am looking for an answer to 'how to WIN an NFL football game'. We L-O-S-T both games since that happened. If losing 2 games since the firing of Palmer isn't a prime indication of the futility of 'knee jerk' firing moves, I don't what is. If we fire Capers and Casserly then it isn't going to get us a WIN either.

Vince Lombardi said it best right here-""Some of us will do our jobs well and some will not, but we will be judged by only one thing-the result."

now THERE is some inspiration I CAN agree with.

Vinny
10-12-2005, 08:04 PM
I think there are quite a few people who would like to see Capers or Casserly (or both) replaced...by next year. I don't think the majority are pushing to see the team make a move asap. The same thing happened to Dan Reeves a couple of years ago in the season....the fans are just going to talk about it.

eriadoc
10-12-2005, 08:09 PM
There are some that come in here with the "fire everyone today" banter, but honestly, I think you'll find more people have moderate views on the subject. I am a proud member of the Fire Capers Club (lol), but I am not saying do it tomorrow. I realize that firing him tomorrow won't solve anything. However, I'll say this - keeping him around won't solve much, either. It's more an issue of who's available.

Capers is a good guy and I give him props for his attention to detail, visibility to the fans on the radio, and loyalty to his guys. But he's not winning football games, and like you said - that's all that matters.

Actually, I rescind that statement - there is a point where winning football games is all that matters. If Capers was 0-4 right now and we'd been competitive in all 4 games, I doubt you'd see much of the knee-jerk reaction we've seen. This team, under his leadership and direction, has only resembled an NFL-caliber team for about 6 quarters this season. Throw in the final couple preseason games and it goes to maybe 6.5 quarters. It's been atrocious.

So no, don't fire Capers tomorrow, but yes, he has to go at season's end, IMO.

If the manner in which I've presented this, or any of my posts, is considered whining, then I can live with that.

Vinny
10-12-2005, 08:13 PM
There is nothing knee-jerk about our last 13 games where we are a solid 3-10 with a short bus offense that can't throw the ball whatsoever. Just look up the passing totals in those games....they are brutal. We are going backwards and doing it in an ugly manner.

thegr8fan
10-12-2005, 08:19 PM
this board does not have a moderate mindset. To prove that there are 2 different threads on the First Page right now.

this one is "Let's focus on the Good things" and it has all of ONE reply. And THAT reply is WHAT good things?
thread link (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=13362)

Here is one that talks mainly about keeping David Carr past this season. It has 111 replys. Once again now......do you keep Carr (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=13274)

so you want to explain to me how this is considered MODERATE?

Marcus
10-12-2005, 08:23 PM
Don't you at least agree that it inspired the team a little? I mean, Carr is raving about how much more serious Pendry is than Palmer was.


Don't you see that for what it is? If only Carr's pocket presence was as good as his butt-kissing skills, the team would be a lot better off.

Good stuff thegr8fan. That needed to be said. :highfive:


__________________________

thegr8fan
10-12-2005, 08:44 PM
Good stuff thegr8fan. That needed to be said. thank you Marcus. :cool:

I thought the title of this thead had my name written all over though, to be honest.

I feel much better now that I have had my rant. I am beginning to understand the 'temper tantrum' rant a bit more now. :hmmm:

Nighthawk
10-12-2005, 09:07 PM
If Capers was 0-4 right now and we'd been competitive in all 4 games, I doubt you'd see much of the knee-jerk reaction we've seen. This team, under his leadership and direction, has only resembled an NFL-caliber team for about 6 quarters this season. Throw in the final couple preseason games and it goes to maybe 6.5 quarters. It's been atrocious.

So no, don't fire Capers tomorrow, but yes, he has to go at season's end, IMO.

I'd be interested in hearing how you (and others) think sticking with Capers for the remainder of the season benefits the team, especially if you already know he should be fired at the end of the season? Seems to me that keeping him is MORE DISPIRITING than letting him go, for all concerned.

Sure, moving a temp in is not going to fix the problems, probably not going to light a fire or even win any more games, but it would clearly establish that management will not tolerate egregious losing, which is what we've had here for a while, and it would set the stage for what could happen instantly when the season's done, and it could bring out some new ideas from other younger position coaches to see if anyone on the staff is worthy of further consideration, and it could possibly help us with the hard Carr decision that has to be made next year (pay him way too much, or let him try elsewhere), by freeing him from the dominance and control of Capers and Pendry, and making him operate on his own more (if he can). I'm assuming that the top notch QBs in this league are never too much under the thumbs of their coaches, but maybe that's a figment of my imagination.

Anyway, I would like to hear a clear rational for NOT FIRING Capers (and possibly Casserly) now. Thanks.

gtexan02
10-12-2005, 09:15 PM
Thats just the point of this whole topic---Don't you see? I love the Texans, and I really like most of the players. But they can't play for Capers because, for whatever reason, he doesnt seem to be able to motivate them. His schemes don't seem to be working. In the last four games of the season we have looked pretty bad. Why stay the course if it look like things will only get worse? This is the same argument that brought us here in the first place. "Lets sign a big name OL or draft a top tier OL!" was responded with "stay the course, they need time to gel." We are 0 and 4, right? If we stay the course, we could be 0-16 (not likely, but it could happen). If we change, what is the worst that could happen? Exactly, 0-16. Capers is getting us nowhere fast. This is supposed to be the breakout year of his 5 year plan, and we are off to our worst start with the worst looking team we have ever had--- and that is why I think a change is in order. Im not saying make a permanent coaching change right now, but I am saying step in and do something...anything, really. Make Hoke head coach, or Pendry even, or someone else who might have at least some chance of reinspiring this team.

thegr8fan
10-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Sure, moving a temp in is not going to fix the problems, probably not going to light a fire or even win any more games, then why do it?

Taking action just for the sake of taking action is NOT a good business decision.

Why do I NOT want it to happen, cause then I wouldn't know WHO to cuss at on Sunday.

Capers and Casserly know their days are numbered, as well as the fans do. I would take this as the best motivation for them giving it their entire effort to change that attitude THIS season. Bob McNair I am sure is even more aware of it.

If we fire Capers and Casserly then the players are standing there the next day, KNOWING that their entire season is 'down the drain'. That they are starting completely over from day one with not only an entire new offensive scheme, but a new philosophy, defense scheme, incorrect personel to run either and the odds of them winning a game just went from 'slim' to 'absolutely,absolutely, ZERO'.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was a player I would find it much more 'dispiriting' to know that Bob McNair had just 'mailed in' the entire season.

IF, and that is a HUGE word, but IF there was even a slim chance that this action, firing Capers or Casserly, would be something positive, I don't doubt that Bob McNair would take it in a heartbeat. But he is a business man and understands that action simply for the sake of action with NO positive result is even MORE disheartening to any organization than to simply be patient and take your action when it WILL do something positive.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 09:26 PM
IMO there isn't any reason to fire anyone during the season. First, change for change's sake is unlikely to improve the team this season. Second, the talent pool during the off-season will be much larger. From a business sense the only reason I could see McNair making an in-season change is if the Texans go 0-9+ and he wants to keep fans interested by putting in an interim coach and letting the fans know something different is coming. Real hard on the interim coach as the players probably would mail it in at that point--although some of them look like they are Fed-Ex'ing it in at this point.

Huge
10-13-2005, 07:44 AM
Yeah I think that too at times, but I do not want to belive it.
Unfortunately, it's true. You could dig up Vince Lombardi and he wouldn't turn this team around this season.

Honest opinion, I see Capers gone at the end of this season but not any time sooner.

Casserly will stay on board until he resigns (I don't see McNair firing him). So it'll be Casserly's responsibility of finding Capers replacement. Something I'm not too comfortbale with given his recent track record of replacing coaches (Richie Petitbon after Joe Gibbs in Washington, Norv Turner after Richie Petitbon, Capers in Houston).

What happens after the new coach is brought in and is given this team? Well, we all saw Jimmy Johnson go 1-15 in Dallas his first year with a talentless team. But eventually he was able to turn it around.

So for those expecting improvement this season with a firing, it's simply not going to happen. There's hope of improvement next season with a new coaching staff but that's all it is...hope. When those hopes are dashed (and they will be after another sub-.500 season), where then will you turn with the complaining?

Or is it possible that those complaining might want to step back and look at a bigger picture? Success is not a given in this league. And any success that does come comes with time. Unless of course you can point to some other recent team that has gone thru a make-over and turned things around and win on a consistent basis as an example of what you're expecting.

Double Barrel
10-13-2005, 08:55 AM
There are some that come in here with the "fire everyone today" banter, but honestly, I think you'll find more people have moderate views on the subject. I am a proud member of the Fire Capers Club (lol), but I am not saying do it tomorrow. I realize that firing him tomorrow won't solve anything. However, I'll say this - keeping him around won't solve much, either. It's more an issue of who's available.

I agree. My position as a member of the Fire Capers Club is for Mr. McNair to release him when the season is over.

McNair is a class act, and firing the HC mid-season is not professional (it reeks of a classic Bud Adams move).

Plus, prospective applicants for the HC position will look at how the front office treated Coach Capers in his last season when making their decision.

So while there might be quite a few "knee-jerk reaction" opinions, we must bear in mind that this is an internet forum where anyone can voice their opinion, including trolls, opposing teams' fans, grumpy old men, and 12 year olds.

There really is no need for ugliness towards fellow fans, though. Everyone has a right to an opinion, even the pots who call the kettles black. :cool:

Ibar_Harry
10-13-2005, 09:13 AM
There is nothing knee-jerk about our last 13 games where we are a solid 3-10 with a short bus offense that can't throw the ball whatsoever. Just look up the passing totals in those games....they are brutal. We are going backwards and doing it in an ugly manner.

Yes, Vinny and that's why I would opt to bring in someone like Dan Reeves who has had some up and downs, but he would be a good interim replacement and a possible long term solution. I just think we are doing more damage than good by continuing down our current path. We need fundamental change and right now. Sorry, we will disagree as usual, but respectfully......................

Exascor
10-13-2005, 09:29 AM
Yes, Vinny and that's why I would opt to bring in someone like Dan Reeves who has had some up and downs, but he would be a good interim replacement and a possible long term solution. I just think we are doing more damage than good by continuing down our current path. We need fundamental change and right now. Sorry, we will disagree as usual, but respectfully......................Why in the world would any veteran coach come into a situation like ours with an "Interim" tag? If you have a replacement in your current staff (like Palmer) that could take over and run the team for the remainder of the year-make him the interim HC. If he's successful then he might be considered for the full time position. But...do you honestly think Dan Reeves, Art Shell or Jimmy Johnson would come in as the "Interim" HC with the hopes they are possibly the long term solution?

ATX_Texan
10-13-2005, 09:45 AM
I don’t think most fans expect firing Capers to turn this season around. I also find it funny that some actually feel that firing him now means this season is lost.

If we fire Capers and Casserly then the players are standing there the next day, KNOWING that their entire season is 'down the drain'. That they are starting completely over from day one with not only an entire new offensive scheme, but a new philosophy, defense scheme, incorrect personel to run either and the odds of them winning a game just went from 'slim' to 'absolutely,absolutely, ZERO'.

I am sorry to tell you, but this season is already lost. Do we need to wait until they lose two more games to the Seahawks and Colts to pronounce the patient dead? At what point in time do we decide that we need to start preparing for 2006? 0-4, or 0-6, or 0-8?


“I don't know about anyone else, but if I was a player I would find it much more 'dispiriting' to know that Bob McNair had just 'mailed in' the entire season.”

I am not worried about the players being dispirited about McNair “mailing” it in. When it pretty obvious that they gave up on Capers and crew at the end of LAST YEAR. Their performance on the field reeks of a team that does not believe anymore. It reminds me a lot of the situation in Miami last year. The players realized that Wandestat was not going to take them anywhere. This lack of belief led them to call the season over pretty quickly. Rather than waste the rest of the year, management got Wandestat to “step down” and they finished out the year with someone else in charge.

IF, and that is a HUGE word, but IF there was even a slim chance that this action, firing Capers or Casserly, would be something positive, I don't doubt that Bob McNair would take it in a heartbeat. But he is a business man and understands that action simply for the sake of action with NO positive result is even MORE disheartening to any organization than to simply be patient and take your action when it WILL do something positive

The reason why you make the move now is not to save this year (it is already finished). It is start finding out what you have to build with. The rest of the year should be like the preseason, a time to evaluate what the Texans have to work with. They should fire Capers and Fangio and let Pendry run the team for the rest of the year. This move would allow Pendry to show what he can do. Of course, I expect it to prove that he is no better at running a team or an Offense than Capers and Palmer. However, that fact will at least be proven. People are always saying that Hoke is a DC in the making. Let him prove it for the rest of the year. The same thing with the players. We should be running out different guys off the bench to find out what they can do. If the players are so dispirited with the thought of starting over, then they need to move on because that is what will be happening with the Texans. They should experiment with different schemes and different personnel. The Texans have a great opportunity to spend the next few months of this lost season preparing for the future. The time to start rebuilding is NOW. To end the denial and start moving forward will allow for something POSITIVE to come out of this situation.

Ibar_Harry
10-13-2005, 09:57 AM
Why in the world would any veteran coach come into a situation like ours with an "Interim" tag? If you have a replacement in your current staff (like Palmer) that could take over and run the team for the remainder of the year-make him the interim HC. If he's successful then he might be considered for the full time position. But...do you honestly think Dan Reeves, Art Shell or Jimmy Johnson would come in as the "Interim" HC with the hopes they are possibly the long term solution?

Yes, you say there are no guranntees, but if you want a shot we will afford you the opportunity. I think they would jump at the opportunity knowing if they wait there will be a lot of competition at the end of the season. We have a lot going for us. The facilities, the fans, the owner, and yes even the players. If you don't try you will never know. I don't think its as impossible as you think. Money also talks.

Exascor
10-13-2005, 10:04 AM
Yes, you say there are no guranntees, but if you want a shot we will afford you the opportunity. I think they would jump at the opportunity knowing if they wait there will be a lot of competition at the end of the season. We have a lot going for us. The facilities, the fans, the owner, and yes even the players. If you don't try you will never know. I don't think its as impossible as you think. Money also talks.That's why teams usually wait until AFTER the season to select a new head coach. I don't see Capers being let go before the end of the season unless there's someone not coaching now that Mcnair feels is ideal and wants to give him the reigns early. I just doubt anyone would take the position without a 3+ year contract.

Malloy
10-13-2005, 10:07 AM
You're not this bad unless you've got both (bad coaching and lack of talent).

Agreed!

If you have talent on a team it'll show, despite bad coaching.

thegr8fan
10-13-2005, 10:29 AM
I am sorry to tell you, but this season is already lost. well why didn't you say so. Heck, now the Texans can just send in the letter to the NFL informing them that we intend to forfeit the rest of the season. I mean why bother spending all that money actually traveling to and playing a game. We can just fire everyone now, get the healing time needed for our players to return next season without a single injury, and begin searching for our next Head Coach and all the coach's that come with him. Thanks for letting me in on the secret that this season is over, that way as a season ticket holder I can save myself some money and not come to the game. :rolleyes:

for all you 'the season is over' so lets start building towards next season, thank you for clearing up the insanity that runs rampant on this board regarding firing everyone for losing a game. I now understand at least why anyone would think this was an answer to what to do with the Texans, cause after all 'the seasons over already'. What a bunch of quitters.

We have 12 games left in the season. I can remember when 12 games WAS a season. Last year there were 3 or 4 teams that were 0-4 or even 1-4 and STILL made the playoffs. I bet they thought their season was over also. But guess what, it ain't over till the fat lady sings. And I ain't hearing any singing yet from the Texans local fat lady. All I am hearing is a bunch of whining crying sniveling quitter type kindergarten girls crying over how much this season is ruined, ALREADY.

Do me a favor, wipe the tears off with the hem of your dress, take your ball, and go home, like a good little quitter girl. See if Mommy will kiss your boo-boo and give you a lollypop. Just stop trying to convince me that with 12 games left in the season that we should all just QUIT. Losers.

Vinny
10-13-2005, 10:32 AM
well why didn't you say so. Heck, now the Texans can just send in the letter to the NFL informing them that we intend to forfeit the rest of the season. I mean why bother spending all that money actually traveling to and playing a game. We can just fire everyone now, get the healing time needed for our players to return next season without a single injury, and begin searching for our next Head Coach and all the coach's that come with him. Thanks for letting me in on the secret that this season is over, that way as a season ticket holder I can save myself some money and not come to the game. :rolleyes:

for all you 'the season is over' so lets start building towards next season, thank you for clearing up the insanity that runs rampant on this board regarding firing everyone for losing a game. I now understand at least why anyone would think this was an answer to what to do with the Texans, cause after all 'the seasons over already'. What a bunch of quitters.

We have 12 games left in the season. I can remember when 12 games WAS a season. Last year there were 3 or 4 teams that were 0-4 or even 1-4 and STILL made the playoffs. I bet they thought their season was over also. But guess what, it ain't over till the fat lady sings. And I ain't hearing any singing yet from the Texans local fat lady. All I am hearing is a bunch of whining crying sniveling quitter type kindergarten girls crying over how much this season is ruined, ALREADY.

Do me a favor, wipe the tears off with the hem of your dress, take your ball, and go home, like a good little quitter girl. See if Mommy will kiss your boo-boo and give you a lollypop. Just stop trying to convince me that with 12 games left in the season that we should all just QUIT. Losers.
No sense in insulting the posters and calling them names pete.

thegr8fan
10-13-2005, 10:56 AM
the intention of that post was to show how, IMHO, the people calling for firing everyone now advocates, are just simply QUITTING. Just like a 5 year old child would do when they weren't getting their way.

Firing anyone at this point in the season, or trying to say that 'the season is already over' is as infantile as it gets. It is a useless, infantile, not well thought out decision that is being ranted on out of frustration, and aggrevation, and worse of all CONFUSION.

where does the Confusion come in at? Cause not one person on this board can definitely point to a single problem that we can change and it will 'fix' this team. We sit there hopefull every Sunday and are disappointed repeatedly and we simply don't know WHY. So we throw a temper tantrum kindergarten fit and get stuck on the 'fire them now' train of thought. And then, like a 5 year old, we stubbornly stay with that thought till someone gives them the satisfaction of 'letting us win' by giving in. Guess what, McNair already gave in. He already let all the 5 year old children ranting about fire him now win and fired Palmer.

And look what that got us, 2 more loss's. :ok:

And to add insult to injury we know have the 'the season is already over' batch trying to make me believe that they are correct. They are absolutely irrevocably WRONG. And unlike McNair I ain't got to sit there and watch them throw a temper tantrum, kicking their feet, till they get their way. I just have to say, GROW UP.

If the shoe fits wear it, but I ain't trying to put it on anyone in particular's foot.

Vinny
10-13-2005, 10:57 AM
just say it without the insults...they just provoke a reaction with more insults.

thegr8fan
10-13-2005, 11:03 AM
I understand Vinny and will try and do so in the future. maybe I will just use the smilies that the board has already provided. :drool:

season is already over :crying: :confused:

Double Barrel
10-13-2005, 12:04 PM
Guess what, McNair already gave in. He already let all the 5 year old children ranting about fire him now win and fired Palmer.

Do you know this for a fact, or is it pure conjecture on your part?

I'm not calling you out, but it is my impression that Coach Capers made this decision (firing Palmer) due to philosophical reasons. Palmer was forced to run Capers' offensive schemes instead of his own. Pendry, on the other hand, is an OC who sees eye-to-eye with Capers. The decision to let Palmer go should have been made in the off-season. (It seems drastic and desperate to do it two games into a season, IMO.)

Anyway, it is an interesting take you have, thegr8fan, that fans are quitting on the team. I understand you pov, but I think you need to look no further than the football field to find the reason for current attitudes among some fans.

The players have quit on the coaches, and it's not just fans making this observation. D.Rob, among other players, have made comments, and national analysts are jumping to the same conclusion. They play with no fire, no heart, and certainly no winning attitude.

While I do not advocate firing Coach Capers during the season, I certainly understand the perspective that he has lost control of the team from the standpoint of leadership.

ATX_Texan
10-13-2005, 12:36 PM
the intention of that post was to show how, IMHO, the people calling for firing everyone now advocates, are just simply QUITTING. Just like a 5 year old child would do when they weren't getting their way.

Firing anyone at this point in the season, or trying to say that 'the season is already over' is as infantile as it gets. It is a useless, infantile, not well thought out decision that is being ranted on out of frustration, and aggrevation, and worse of all CONFUSION.

I would contend that saying that the season is NOT OVER is just a case of denial. I keep hearing that maybe things will turn out differently if we just stay the course, like the Panthers last year. The difference was that the Panthers were a veteran team that had success the year before and were the victim of terrible injuries. Instead, the Texans are a team with no such history of success. In fact, their regression started at the mid point of LAST SEASON. These problems were on display during the last game of that season and continued through training camp and into this season. Again, when this season considered over: 0-4, 0-6, 0-10?


Guess what, McNair already gave in. He already let all the 5 year old children ranting about fire him now win and fired Palmer. And look what that got us, 2 more loss's.

I don’t understand this fear of change. Does anyone feel that firing Palmer cost us the last two games? Instead, we can now see that the problems with the offense went a lot deeper than just Palmer. Again, I say let’s fire Capers and Fangio now. We can promote Pendry and Hoke and see what they do with until the end of year. By doing that, we evaluate their abilities to coach in the NFL.

Thanks for letting me in on the secret that this season is over, that way as a season ticket holder I can save myself some money and not come to the game.

I am sorry that dealing with the fact that the Texans are a horrible team right now and the thought of rebuilding is so terrible to you. At this point, you sound just as childish and irrational as the people you are ready to insult. The first step to correcting any problem is to accept the situation, and move forward (not deny and continue on the same path). As a Texans’ fan, I want to see them start the rebuilding NOW. They have the rest of this season to try different things and personnel to evaluate just how bare the talent table really is. Will they lose games? Yes, and I will accept that because it means that we are learning. It sounds much better than accepting the same disappointing results over and over again.

Marcus
10-13-2005, 01:10 PM
The players have quit on the coaches, and it's not just fans making this observation. D.Rob, among other players, have made comments, and national analysts are jumping to the same conclusion. They play with no fire, no heart, and certainly no winning attitude.
That is, was, and will always be the STANDARD response from fans of any football team that they root for, when their football team is losing.

"They play with no fire, no heart, and certainly no winning attitude". Go to any football message board . . . pro, college, or high school of any, any team that's lost more than two in a row . . and you will find that standard copout line.

No offense, but it is a copout. Because it reveals the unwillingness to recognize a BAD football team. And at the end the day, when you sweep away all the BS, the football team is BAD because the players are BAD. You can pour all the fire, heart, and winning attitude kool-aid down Victor Riley's throat, and it won't improve his pass-blocking one bit. Either he has speed and quickness, or he doesn't.

Now, does that mean I think all the "fire so and so" posters are copouts? Well, as thegr8fan put it . . . if the shoe fits . .

___________________________

Runner
10-13-2005, 01:15 PM
You can pour all the fire, heart, and winning attitude kool-aid down Victor Riley's throat, and it won't improve his pass-blocking one bit. Either he has speed and quickness, or he doesn't.



___________________________

This is a bad example. Not only was Victor chosen to solve our LT issues (real or imagined) this year, he is probably being ordained as we speak to fix our RT problems. Obviously, he doesn't need the kool-aid. (Runner types with a smirk).

Double Barrel
10-13-2005, 01:51 PM
That is, was, and will always be the STANDARD response from fans of any football team that they root for, when their football team is losing.

That's fine and dandy, but don't you think it could be TRUE some of the time? :confused:

We're 0-4. And by anyone's reasonable analysis, we'll probably be 0-6 in two weeks from now.

We fired our OC two games into a new season, a move that smells of desperation.

Most of these players were on a team last year that went 7-9 (should have been 8-8) and were looking forward to improving this season.

You can opine that it is a "cop out" all you want, but please show me where, exactly, this team has played with any desire and fire in four games. Maybe your deep insight can educate all of us regular fans that just don't see it.

Lack of talent? Perhaps, I won't argue with you.

But you simply cannot deny that they have played flat the first four games of this season (even going back to last season, as well).

ATX_Texan
10-13-2005, 02:02 PM
No offense, but it is a copout. Because it reveals the unwillingness to recognize a BAD football team. And at the end the day, when you sweep away all the BS, the football team is BAD because the players are BAD. You can pour all the fire, heart, and winning attitude kool-aid down Victor Riley's throat, and it won't improve his pass-blocking one bit. Either he has speed and quickness, or he doesn't.

I have to disagree on this one. A GOOD football team is the result of coaching AND the players. I tend to feel in this case it is a result of the coaching. The talents of the players are what they are. This team was making progress and at one time last year resembled an up and coming unit. However, they have been regressing for almost a year now. I don’t think their talent suddenly left them. Instead, I feel that the players no longer buy into the systems they are being asked to run. They resemble the Browns and Dolphins of last season. Both teams had coaches that outstayed their welcome. No one can deny that both teams have made great strides with the new coaches they brought in. Good coaches are able to get players to buy into their systems and put them in the position to succeed. I don’t see that happening here. If Riley doesn't have the speed to play LT, why is he is playing there? I really feel that a different coach could get better results from the players we have. I also don’t feel that Capers and Fangio could make another team better. Finally, the players do need to be held accountable. By removing Capers and Fangio from the equation, you remove that excuse from the players. By making changes we can also find out the strengths and weakness of the players.

mean mark8
10-13-2005, 02:06 PM
Let's simply take a look at the solution the Texans started with to our offensive ineptness. They promote our O-line coach to offensive coordinator. Hello!!! The offensive line has been for crud since we put one together. Actually, Pendry only coached the guards and center, another guy coached the tackles. The tackles coach is now the coach for the entire O-line. Hello!!! The tackles are the two players on the line that have given up the most sacks, by the record, on the O-line this year. Does any of this make sense to any of you?? Promotion of bad coaching is not a solution to any problem. This looks like the organization hasn't got a clue what's right and what's wrong with the team and that's the coaches' lack of ability.

mean mark8
10-13-2005, 02:12 PM
Yes, Vinny and that's why I would opt to bring in someone like Dan Reeves who has had some up and downs, but he would be a good interim replacement and a possible long term solution. I just think we are doing more damage than good by continuing down our current path. We need fundamental change and right now. Sorry, we will disagree as usual, but respectfully......................

OMG, please not Dan Reeves. He held back every offense he ever touched. Look at Elway's numbers for 56 minutes of every game Reeves ever coached and you'll see how he held him back. Only in the last 2 minutes of each half could Elway play Elway ball. Reeves would still be trying to make Vick throw exclusively from the pocket. Reeves is the secret twin-brother of Capers. Please, just say no to Dan Reeves. :ok:

I'd say someone who could change the player attitudes because he's done it before is Jerry Glanville. We'd only want him to come in for a year or two to give our team some swagger. Then can him when he goes nuts on us. :yahoo:

Marcus
10-13-2005, 02:49 PM
Jerry Glanville? :eek: :crazy:
Yup . . that's all we need. Let's bring the old Stagger Lee to this 1st class organization. :rofl:

Marcus
10-13-2005, 03:21 PM
You can opine that it is a "cop out" all you want, but please show me where, exactly, this team has played with any desire and fire in four games. Maybe your deep insight can educate all of us regular fans that just don't see it.

Lack of talent? Perhaps, I won't argue with you.
If you won't dispute that fact that there is a lack of talent, then how in the world can you tell the difference between lack of talent, and lack of fire and desire?
But you simply cannot deny that they have played flat the first four games of this season (even going back to last season, as well).
Why are you trying to take something simple and make it complicated? :brickwall

They have exactly the same problems now, as they did last season. The can't protect the QB on offense, and they can't rush the QB on defense.

What's the difference between this season and last? Nothing, except maybe you and everyone else's over-inflated expectations.

touttail
10-13-2005, 04:12 PM
You can opine that it is a "cop out" all you want, but please show me where, exactly, this team has played with any desire and fire in four games. .

DB,

I strongly feel the Texans did have desire for and during the Cincy game. The ref seemed to have taken that away on the so called Carr fumble.
Seemed like we came out with some desire in the Titan game. we were really outcoached. They saw something at half time made adjustments and kicked out butt the second half. Our coaches aren't caple of making halftime adjustments, or so it seems.

bobby 119C :brickwall

Double Barrel
10-13-2005, 04:15 PM
What's the difference between this season and last? Nothing, except maybe you and everyone else's over-inflated expectations.

Marcus, with all due respect, you are blowing it out of your assumption if you wish to accuse me of "over-inflated expectations".

Is hoping for an 8-8 season over-inflated? I believe a .500 season was definitely realistic by anyone's measure, including the Texans front office, coaching staff, and media (many in the press had us 9-7 and competing for a wildcard. I never even considered this team a playoff contender this year).

Perhaps you are blindly generalizing me with other posters/fans, I don't know. But you are definitely making a grand assumption based upon your own perceptions, and not on the reality of anything I've advocated in the past.

If you won't dispute that fact that there is a lack of talent, then how in the world can you tell the difference between lack of talent, and lack of fire and desire?

I didn't say I would not dispute it. I just said that I'm not going to argue it with you in this thread. The word "perhaps" indicates that I'm granting that possibility to your stated position.

However, it really has no bearing, because a team can lack talent and still play above it's potential, and by the same token, teams can be loaded with talent but fail to reach their potential because they lack the fire. (examples abound throughout sports history!)

They have exactly the same problems now, as they did last season. The can't protect the QB on offense, and they can't rush the QB on defense.

I find it interesting that you are proving the point that Capers' time has come and gone, regardless of the position you wish to advocate.

Based upon your premise that the team lacks talent, doesn't this just prove the point that Capers and crew have failed at evaluating talent and signed players that should not have been considered for the team?

Regardless of how you frame it, the coaches have failed. Either through failure to inspire talented players, or by building a team of no talent hacks.

Pick your poison, because, either way, it kills you in the end.

Double Barrel
10-13-2005, 04:27 PM
DB,

I strongly feel the Texans did have desire for and during the Cincy game. The ref seemed to have taken that away on the so called Carr fumble.
Seemed like we came out with some desire in the Titan game. we were really outcoached. They saw something at half time made adjustments and kicked out butt the second half. Our coaches aren't caple of making halftime adjustments, or so it seems.

bobby 119C :brickwall

I respect that, even if I might disagree with part of it. Afterall, it is perception on all our parts. I have no doubt that individual players want to win, and see signs of fire and desire in individual players.

But as a team, they lack cohesion. They've been flat. I think this is coaching, or lack thereof, because they don't seem inspired anymore.

Remember when we beat the Carolina Panthers and took the New England Patriots to overtime in the same season? They were clearly better teams than us, both making it all the way to the SuperBowl. But we played with heart and desire, and we, as fans, believed that we could beat anyone on any given Sunday. We proved it that year in just those two games.

Do ya'll honestly feel this year's team has that attitude?

I'm asking as a fellowship of fans, because I really want to see it if you do. I want to see what I'm missing, and I'd welcome your input to help elevate my own perceptions.

As far as being out coached, I'd have to agree. The simple fact that there was animosity between our OC and HC, between our OC and QB, indicates that all was/is not well within the leadership of the Texans. I don't think situations like that translate too well into cohesive gameday decisions.

SESupergenius
10-13-2005, 04:45 PM
IF the Texans went on a 4-0 winning streak or after this next loss, a 5-0 winning streak, would everyone feel a little better? Most would. I expected the Texans to have a losing season this year, for the people who expected more it must really be getting to them. It was all right there in front of you before the season. No o-line upgrade, same bad offensive system, no good TE's were drafted or acquired, the o-line was shifted around for the 4th time, Our defense has new personnel which equates to a longer learning curve, our best CB was given the boot and replaced by a nickel QB to go head to head with our oppositions best WR, our LB's are starting new positions, our defensive front wasn't upgraded and we lost our best nickel guy. This should not be something that people were looking forward to as "progress."

All that being said, it takes time for the defense to come around with so many new faces and players not in those same positions as last year. What this means is, we should be getting better right around this game and the arrow should be pointed up. When that starts happening then maybe our offense will benefit from some of the effectiveness our defensive will have. One glaring stat is that K Brown has only kicked 5 FG's in 4 games. Those cheap points off of turnovers are sorely needed and I think they will start coming.

thegr8fan
10-13-2005, 05:17 PM
Do you know this for a fact, or is it pure conjecture on your part? DB I sent you a PM on this.

Which teams were those (0-4)??? I can answer this one. There weren't any! The Packers did start 1-4 and made the playoffs, but you are making this sound like a common occurrence. you know what, I'll take the hit on that one. No it isn't a common occurance. But it has been done. By the Chargers one year, the Bills another, the Cowboys a couple of years ago. But the main point of that remark was that it isn't an impossibility for the Texans to turn the corner and pull off a playoff spot, even with an 0-4 record to date. I am not going to toss the rest of this season into the trash can and call it finished. That is a quitter mentality and will do absolutely nothing good for anyone, fans, players, coach's, no one, IMHO.

The NFL is too close across the board in talent level. We have been blown out of most games. But if you stop, collect yourself and actually analyze the games, you can actually see where if we would have gotten just one break here or there, the entire game would have looked far better. The Carr fumble in the Bengals game. The offsides penalty late in the 3rd Qtr to give the Steelers a first down on 3rd and 4, , and should have resulted in a punt, as the play did get ran and we stopped it short, and the very next play was a 60 yard pass. There have been one or two penalty's, missed opportunities, or just plain bad luck that have dramatically changed most of our games outcome. Unfortunately we just can't buy a break lately. But it really isn't as bad as it seems initially.

I am just as frustrated and ticked off as the board is. But I am NOT, not now, nor EVER going to demand that some action be taken that I KNOW is going to mean we just QUIT on the season. We do what Carr does when he gets sacked. We pick our heads up, dust off our hinney, and get back into the huddle, and call the next play. We do NOT take ourselves out of the game and go sit on a bench on the sidelines. We do NOT quit. Not now, not ever.

Most of the board members were thinking in the offseason of an 8-8 record. a .500 record. We can still get there. I am not sure how, but it is achievable. Fire Capers or Casserly and we all realize it is NOT only not achievable, but almost impossible to do so.

Marcus
10-13-2005, 08:51 PM
I find it interesting that you are proving the point that Capers' time has come and gone, regardless of the position you wish to advocate.

Based upon your premise that the team lacks talent, doesn't this just prove the point that Capers and crew have failed at evaluating talent and signed players that should not have been considered for the team?

Regardless of how you frame it, the coaches have failed. Either through failure to inspire talented players, or by building a team of no talent hacks.

Pick your poison, because, either way, it kills you in the end.

The coaches and the staff have failed by building a team of no talent hacks, not by the failure to inspire talented players.

There is a very important difference between the two. If you think it's a failure to inspire talent, then you are deluded into thinking about the quick fix. Just fire everybody, and instantly the problem is solved. That's the copout route. But if you accept the fact that it's a team of no talent hacks, then you accept the fact that it will be years before we have a decent team.

The "fire and desire" thing is so overrated.

belars44
10-13-2005, 10:15 PM
I can only tell you this, I have met Pete (aka. thegr8fan) and he is dead on with seemingly every interpretation I have asked him about. He is just that a GREAT fan, and I for one respect what his opinions are and try to ask him questions when we watch the games here in Austin at the Saxon Pub. By him taking the stand he has within this thread, it merely shows me how much it pains him to see the results on the field. I for one agree, leave staus quo as is now.

The season is merely a quarter down and there may be some light at the end of the tunnel and I will maintain faith that things will turn around eventually. We will not see a 2, 5, or even 10 year period of losing like this such as other organizations have experienced and that is enough for me.

If the season maintains along this path, then I certainly don't want Capers fired until after the season. If for no other reason that I am at every game and want to watch him squirm and be held accountable for the whole train wreck we are witnessing now.

And it at least allows me to ride his weak coaching skills and let him hear me, and believe me, from where I sit he does. Nothing better than preaching the truth about his lack of emotion, fire, and motivational tactics and having players like Orr and Peek turn around and grin. It will end soon if not eventually.

And Pete is merely trying to enlighten some of you of the same.

Double Barrel
10-14-2005, 09:41 AM
DB I sent you a PM on this.

Thanks, man. Much appreciated. 'nuff said! :ok:

I am not going to toss the rest of this season into the trash can and call it finished. That is a quitter mentality and will do absolutely nothing good for anyone, fans, players, coach's, no one, IMHO.

<snip>

I am just as frustrated and ticked off as the board is. But I am NOT, not now, nor EVER going to demand that some action be taken that I KNOW is going to mean we just QUIT on the season. We do what Carr does when he gets sacked. We pick our heads up, dust off our hinney, and get back into the huddle, and call the next play. We do NOT take ourselves out of the game and go sit on a bench on the sidelines. We do NOT quit. Not now, not ever.

Most of the board members were thinking in the offseason of an 8-8 record. a .500 record. We can still get there. I am not sure how, but it is achievable. Fire Capers or Casserly and we all realize it is NOT only not achievable, but almost impossible to do so.

I agree about firing the HC mid-season. It is unproductive, unprofessional, and to be honest, is too similar to something Bud Adams does throughout the history of the Oilers. Better to distance ourselves from that kind of attitude, unless we want our team infected with it.

And yeah, firing our HC right now does mean we've quit just four games into a season. Anything is possible four games into it, we just have to balance it with what is probable.

ps. Come January 2006, though, and the gloves are off. Depending on the next 12 games, I think it is in our right as fanatics to desire change in leadership if this season should tank.

The coaches and the staff have failed by building a team of no talent hacks, not by the failure to inspire talented players.

There is a very important difference between the two. If you think it's a failure to inspire talent, then you are deluded into thinking about the quick fix. Just fire everybody, and instantly the problem is solved. That's the copout route. But if you accept the fact that it's a team of no talent hacks, then you accept the fact that it will be years before we have a decent team.

The "fire and desire" thing is so overrated.

You want to know where I'm coming from? The fact that this team, under Coach Capers, played inspired ball the first three seasons. We beat teams that were much, much better than us, and I think it is because they were inspired to do so and believed in the system.

We weren't better than the Carolina Panthers in 2003. They were a SuperBowl caliber team. We took the NFL Champions that same year to OT! Not because we had better talent, but because of fire.

I certainly understand why you feel the desire to fire everyone now is a copout (and again, I want to wait and see what happens, then make decisions like that in the off-season).

But we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree, because I think this team does have talent. They're just not playing on the same page right now, which, IMO, is a product of failed coaching.

I do appreciate the informative opinions from you dudes, though, because it educates and strengthens my own positions. It's all good. :thumbup