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View Full Version : Once again now . . . do you keep Carr?


Marcus
10-10-2005, 07:13 PM
Houston Chronicle: "David Carr is due an $8 million roster bonus by the end of this season. If the Texans don't exercise it, he will become a free agent. Until recently, that money and Carr's future with the Texans hadn't been an issue."

Well, it has become a very important issue now. With all this "Fire everyone" frenzy going on, it's in the background, and it shoudn't be.

If he get's that bonus, that goes against the salary cap, and he gets Pro-Bowler pay without proving he deserves it. Granted, with the o-line, some say he never was given a chance. But the fact still remains, he hasn't proved he's deserved it.

From this corner, IMO, if everyone goes out the door, Carr goes with them. He was, after all, their choice.

Now, I like Carr a lot, I think that if he is given protection from an adequate offensive line, he can one day become a good quarterback. Maybe one day he can earn that Pro-Bowl money.

But, (I'm ashamed to say this) he doesn't stand a chance with the Houston Texans. If the front office has any honor left in them, they will let this kid go before he is permanently ruined . . . like a Tim Couch or Archie Manning.

_____________________________

Vinny
10-10-2005, 07:15 PM
I donno, good topic. I can't believe we haven't discussed this! :penalty:

:bomb: just kinda joking Marcus...we are beating this dead horse for the next 12 weeks I would guess

texan279
10-10-2005, 07:19 PM
If we don't/can't draft Ferguson, sign/draft a TE, another WR, and maybe another lineman, I say let him go, it has gotten to the point where it's just not fair to Carr anymore. He still needs to work on spome minor things, but he hasn't even had a chance to show what he can do or prove he is worth the money. And I was one of the ones saying bench Carr in the preseason. He actually has looked better to me, but he hasn't had time this season to show what he can do. If he only had time so he at least has a chance to show what he can do...

profan
10-10-2005, 07:27 PM
i think the question has to be asked, does david carr still want to play in houston. They have not given him any support(o-line). I would like to see ragone get some playing time and see how he performs. If he performs equal to or better than carr, i say release carr and let him find success with another team. Would hate to see the titans pick him up. This will be a decision our new head coach would have to make when he evaluates the whole team. That money could be well spent upgrading alot of other positions.

texan279
10-10-2005, 07:28 PM
i think the question has to be asked, does david carr still want to play in houston. They have not given him any support(o-line). I would like to see ragone get some playing time and see how he performs. If he performs equal to or better than carr, i say release carr and let him find success with another team. Would hate to see the titans pick him up. This will be a decision our new head coach would have to make when he evaluates the whole team. That money could be well spent upgrading alot of other positions.

If Carr was to leave, I bet the Jets, Bears, or even the Skins would make a hard push for him...

nunusguy
10-10-2005, 07:39 PM
i think the question has to be asked, does david carr still want to play in houston.
And I presume management, whoever that would be between the end of the season and March, would make sure they knew exactly how Carr felt about
remaining here. Assuming the Texans want to keep him, is the option exercised unilaterally by the Texans, or must it be by mutual agreement ? And can we trade the option rights for value to another team without Carrs
approval ?

LORK 88
10-10-2005, 07:48 PM
Do what Detroit did and keep Carr and give him weapons and a line that will actually block for him. If he still sucks, then get rid of him. We've allready made bigger mistakes than giving Carr $8 million, and who knows? He could turn things around with some help like Drew Brees did.

CajunTexan
10-10-2005, 07:48 PM
You know, call me crazy, ignorant, blind, whatever, but my gut tells me this guy will renegotiate his contract to give the team the cap money it needs. Surely he sees, whether his fault or not, he has not put up the numbers to warrant that contract.

To me it depends on what the word from league insiders may be. If "the word" is that, put in the right position, he will put up pro-bowl numbers, he may not renegotiate, because his agent will persuade him he can get the dollars. But that would be a major league roll of the dice.

I think his best bet is to come to some kind of deal with the Texans.

Honoring Earl 34
10-10-2005, 07:48 PM
:texflag: I would not pay ...let him go free agent and sign him for less in a month .

Hervoyel
10-10-2005, 07:53 PM
I'm thinking just the opposite CajunTexan. I'm thinking that David is going to say to himself "I just spent four years getting the stuffing beat out of me. Then the defenses beat the stuffing just to see if anything might fall out of it. It's time to get paid for all those hits"

I think on one level he'd be right to do that. Carr has not completely lived up to his end of the bargain IMO but it's painfully obvious that the Texans have come up short too. If anything I think the Texans owe him the money but I also think there's so much wrong with the team right now that Carr might be best served by going elsewhere. The Texans might be best served spending that money on other needs.

It's a hard thing to understand but much like Cleveland before us we may be sending our first QB out the door because that's what's best for both of us.

OzzO
10-10-2005, 07:53 PM
yes and ditto the cajun a few posts up... he's a smart kid, I think he'll do what's right, especially if there's a one on one meeting with Bob "number one priority..." McNair to discuss the future.

LORK 88
10-10-2005, 07:58 PM
I think he'll be smart about it too. Yes, he's taken hits and gets pummeled but I think he sees too much (dare I say it) promise. the Texans without Carr would be even worse, he's at the very least, a leader. Who would want to come play for us and take all those hits anyways?

CajunTexan
10-10-2005, 07:58 PM
I'm thinking just the opposite CajunTexan. I'm thinking that David is going to say to himself "I just spent four years getting the stuffing beat out of me. Then the defenses beat the stuffing just to see if anything might fall out of it. It's time to get paid for all those hits"

I think on one level he'd be right to do that. Carr has not completely lived up to his end of the bargain IMO but it's painfully obvious that the Texans have come up short too. If anything I think the Texans owe him the money but I also think there's so much wrong with the team right now that Carr might be best served by going elsewhere. The Texans might be best served spending that money on other needs.

It's a hard thing to understand but much like Cleveland before us we may be sending our first QB out the door because that's what's best for both of us.

Herv...you know I am speaking a little bit from my heart on this one. I have always had this gut about Carr, sort of like I did about Aikman. You may be right though. No one could blame the guy or the team for a parting of the ways. I just hope he is not a figure in H-town sports history like a Nolan Ryan or someone else that was shown the door and prospered elsewhere.

Goldeagle
10-10-2005, 08:01 PM
Yeah keep him. All my friends in other towns know it is not his fault.

They even said on the radio today that Carr had about 2.4 seconds to take the snap, drop back, read the defense, and make the throw

2.4 FREAKING SECONDS!

blockhead83
10-10-2005, 08:08 PM
I definitely think Carr can get it done, if given the proper supporting cast (all he needs IMO is protection at this point, and maybe a better #2 receiver if we get the chance). He has all the tools to be a great QB, and if we let him go it won't be easy to get another young franchise QB with similar capabilities. He hasn't proven he's worth big money yet, but there is no doubting his potential in my mind. Hopefully he'll restructure, maybe the enticement of a new coaching staff with true intentions of doing everything they can to protect him will persuade him. I think we need a change in coaching staff, and a strong showing in the draft and FA to pick up some talent for this OLine, and Carr can go on to have a very productive career with the Texans. I definitely want him to stay in Houston.

Hervoyel
10-10-2005, 08:09 PM
Herv...you know I am speaking a little bit from my heart on this one. I have always had this gut about Carr, sort of like I did about Aikman. You may be right though. No one could blame the guy or the team for a parting of the ways. I just hope he is not a figure in H-town sports history like a Nolan Ryan or someone else that was shown the door and prospered elsewhere.

Agreed, I want to see it work out too and even though a lot of people say that if you're the least bit critical of David Carr that makes you a "Carr Hater" I disagree. I see holes in his game and things he does poorly but most quarterbacks have weaknesses here and there. I don't see a coaching staff that's been able to help him with the things he does wrong and I don't see an organization that's provided him with the tools to eliminate the excuses.

I'd like to see them give him a line and some consistent time. Give him a kick butt running game and a second solid threat and then see what happens. I hope we get a look at something like this before it's all over. I'd hate to give up on him too soon too.

What I don't mean by a line and consistent time is the mess we put on the field every year. FIX THE LINE GUYS!

I don't mean a Domanick Davis type running game. You put DD behind Payton Manning and he's going to look an awful lot like Edge at times. Here he's not enough. Back at the draft I was praying for Benson to fall to us (no way) but of course it didn't happen. The Texans need a running back who can get the yards when everyone knows he's coming to get them. DD just can't do that.

On the second receiving threat I think we already have good options. Gaffney can play, Armstrong can play. Even Bradford can play (but how he rates as our #2 guy escapes me. He's at best our #3. I don't give Mathis an edge over him just because for all the ridiculous love in here sent to Mathis he hasn't done a damned thing yet. Right now he's Corey Bradford but faster and with less history to judge him by. Maybe he passes Corey easy once he gets in some games but until I see it he is what he is, a rookie reciever with speed. Don't expect too much from him in year one.

Mr. Old School
10-10-2005, 08:16 PM
Carr has to take some of the blame in the Texans' performance so far. Everything can't be put on the O-line. He still needs help in reading the blitz. Is Carr mature enough to lead this team? Sometimes I wonder about him. Man, he's getting alot of $$$$!

texan279
10-10-2005, 08:19 PM
He still needs help in reading the blitz.

What can he do when he sees the blitz coming? This O line couldn't block against a pee wee squad. Carr needs help praying when he sees the blitz coming.

eriadoc
10-10-2005, 08:20 PM
I like David Carr. I think it's a travesty how this team has failed to put him in a position to succeed to this point. I don't blame much of our current situation on Carr, even while acknowledging that he's not playing well now. No other QB would be playing well at this point in our team's history, either.

That said, we can't pay him $8 million next year. While he may not have been given ample opportunity to earn that pay, the fact remains that he has not earned it. What I think he's earned is a right to a second chance under a new regime, whether that be with a renegotiated contract here in Houston, or as a free agent signing elsewhere.

CajunTexan
10-10-2005, 08:23 PM
Agreed, I want to see it work out too and even though a lot of people say that if you're the least bit critical of David Carr that makes you a "Carr Hater" I disagree. I see holes in his game and things he does poorly but most quarterbacks have weaknesses here and there. I don't see a coaching staff that's been able to help him with the things he does wrong and I don't see an organization that's provided him with the tools to eliminate the excuses.

I'd like to see them give him a line and some consistent time. Give him a kick butt running game and a second solid threat and then see what happens. I hope we get a look at something like this before it's all over. I'd hate to give up on him too soon too.

What I don't mean by a line and consistent time is the mess we put on the field every year. FIX THE LINE GUYS!

I don't mean a Domanick Davis type running game. You put DD behind Payton Manning and he's going to look an awful lot like Edge at times. Here he's not enough. Back at the draft I was praying for Benson to fall to us (no way) but of course it didn't happen. The Texans need a running back who can get the yards when everyone knows he's coming to get them. DD just can't do that.

On the second receiving threat I think we already have good options. Gaffney can play, Armstrong can play. Even Bradford can play (but how he rates as our #2 guy escapes me. He's at best our #3. I don't give Mathis an edge over him just because for all the ridiculous love in here sent to Mathis he hasn't done a damned thing yet. Right now he's Corey Bradford but faster and with less history to judge him by. Maybe he passes Corey easy once he gets in some games but until I see it he is what he is, a rookie reciever with speed. Don't expect too much from him in year one.

I'm with you Herv...some folks criticize though without any specifics to back the criticisim. (where is the spell check icon?) Yes, he does have holes, like not looking a safety off, but as the eagle mentioned, 2.4 seconds is long enough to look off anything. He has just shown enough glimpes of what could be, to keep the feeling in my gut about what he could become.

I bleed purple and gold and watched double d in college, but I have never been sold on him as a "hoss", you know. He lacks the stamina to dominate a game. Don't get me wrong, he shows flashes, just not a dominator.

I really like our receivers, minus Cory, just past his prime. AJ, Gaff, Armstrong and Mathis seem to me like could be really scary to a defense if we could find away to get 2, 3 or all 4 of them on the field at the same time.

Like most of the rest of the folks on this board, I have watched the team for 5 years and had high expectations for this season. Very dissappointed. Just hope McNair can fix it.

Wharton
10-10-2005, 08:47 PM
If not David, then who? Banks? Ragone?

Neither has shown much promise.

Another question is this "How much will it cost us to bring in a descent quarterback?" Really, think about it! Who in thier right mind would want to play for the Texans? The offensive line is questionable at best; the running game is inconsistent; no tightend or fullback to dump off to, no viable #2 receiver and finally an unproven first receiver.

Realistically, what kind of quartback could the Texans attract? We could draft another #1 QB but, given the reasons listed above, how would that change anything? Give a frest new quarterback two years of record breaking sack counts, and we will have another David Carr on our hands.

As much as it pains me to say this - David Carr may be our best option.

Ouch! That Hurt!

Kaiser Toro
10-10-2005, 09:07 PM
Carr's contract is the issue not the man. I do not think he will be back if heads roll either, since he is tied inextricably to the front office and staff.

I am one who does not believe he has it to be a good QB in this league for more than a three game stretch. I could easily seeing DC not catching on like Couch as well with another team if he were to be released.

HoustonFan
10-10-2005, 09:22 PM
I say give him a chance w/ the next coach to take the helm and make the changes necessary on offense for better ball movement - in the air, on the ground, w/ a screen, whatever. I think the fight is in him, just not for Dom.

Hervoyel
10-10-2005, 09:50 PM
I will say one thing and I am absolutely positive about this. We don't just need a new HC, OC, and DC. We need someone who's job is to work with David Carr. We need someone to work with him like June Jones did with Warren Moon.

This isn't a "Oh we'll work on it during training camp some" kind of thing either. this is a full time job and finding someone who can get through to David Carr and help fix or minimize his problems is at least as important as fixing the offensive line we put around him. When he finally does get consistent time he's got to know what to do with it. he needs a guy who he can go back to the sidelines and talk to. Not some dude on the other end of the phone but someone he trusts who's sole responsibility is to make sure that he's ready to play.

We pay this guy millions of dollars. I think spending another hundred grand or whatever the going rate is for an outstanding QB coach is taking care of your larger investment and money well spent.

SESupergenius
10-10-2005, 10:29 PM
I'd like to see Carr stay, because no pocket QB is going to fun to watch with this oline. Keep Carr, Keep AJ and gut everyone else, including DD, can't block for #$@.

Install a high-powered offense and for Gods sake bring in a FA TE worth a dang, Bubba Franks was avail for the longest time.

Nighthawk
10-10-2005, 11:37 PM
We're to blame, the line's to blame, the coaches are to blame, and Carr's to blame. Plenty for all. The money is MUCH too much to pay him, given his performance, no matter the reason. So, for all of us, Carr should go try his luck elsewhere and we start over. Maybe he turns out an NFL legend. More likely he turns out a serviceable QB with below average reads, a cannon arm, and a skittishness born of our first 4 years. But give the guy a chance. Let him go.

Sco-tai
10-11-2005, 12:06 AM
Measure Carr's numbers against most ANY NFL Q (aikman, elway, montana, etc...) and his #'s through 3 years KILL them. This year is sucking because our o-line is WORSE (who would have thunk!).

CARR IS NOT THE PROBLEM...but he's going to be one SOON if we don't sell the barn to get a decent o-line.

Having said that...if you've read ANY of my posts...you know that I've been a homer (just see my FANTASY TEAM..HAHHA). However, I can no longer in good conscience defend Capers, Casserly or Fangio.

I just can't...I wanna..but. The case against them is just too strong.

I ate $120 in tickets this weekend because I LOVE SPORTS...but I'm not a masochist. I knew we wouldn't show up...and we didnt'. Pathetic!
In my opinion we have the 1 WR with the most potential. We have the 1 QB with as much potential as PALMER, ROTHERLSEREKLJN-BURGER & MANNING. But I think ALL would look like Carr if they lined up under McSuck-ney & the rest of our CFL-line.
Again...this is the first "negative" post for me ever. But...I'd be lying if I said I still thought this organization was on the right path.

CAPERS and Crew....PROVE US WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE! I will continue to EAT MY TICKETS until we decide to show up. Fo' real! Sure...eating several grand a season sucks...but with $7 beers & $6 dogs....it's better than the alternative.

:brickwall

Mind you....I've NEVER EVER EVER said a bad word about our organization until now. 3 years of bottom-feeding didn't phase me. But this year...purely unacceptable. And undestand...if we had to lose key quality players like the Titans because we tried to extend our "rule" longer than financially viable...fine. It was a calculated risk with good intentions. But this is proving to merely be poor management and bad decisions.

BUCHANON, HOLLINGS, C. HILL, BABIN....and overpaying WADE. McNair seems to be a smart business guy. I don't see him swallowing even an entire season of this mess.

I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR "With the 1st pick of the 2006 DRAFT, the Houston Texans pick ___________". :brickwall :goodnight

outofhnd
10-11-2005, 12:28 AM
LOL but the problem is not a coaching problem!!!!!!

The problems is bodies... Every winning team in the NFL has backups that can come in and make a valuable contribution. we have drafted maybe 30 players at the most over our history.

We are on the right track... However the only setback I really saw was the switch to a zone blocking scheme in 04. Yea it works with the run, (see Denver & Atlanta for more info) but look at their passing attacks.. Both are West Coast offenses that rely heavily on the short passes precise routes and quick development. The passing plays we have are not made for that kind of line play they are timing routes that take time to develop and they are spread out so there ismore to read. But at week 3 you cant say ok scrap the passing plays, or scrap the blocking scheme.

No team in NFL has become a perennial Winning franchise, in 5 years after creation... well except for teams in like the 20's.

Think about that. we havent built enough personnel here in 5 years you cant trade for talent because with spare parts and the only real talent being the talent you wanna keep so really all we have is money to throw at players.

Blame whoever you want to blame, But the blame is placed squarely upon the NFL fan who wants a fine wine made out of sour grapes. Normally 5 years for any team would be enough but they have players in place have nucleus to develop the team around. We had nothing.. The team honestly is coming along real well but with a lack of o line talent available since 02, we have been limited to building other areas. Thats the truth period. :dangit:

outofhnd
10-11-2005, 12:54 AM
Keep Carr since this draft is basically what houston has really been holding out for. I mean the only real move we made was we tryed to get pace. If we end up with the worst record this year, that sets us up for a monster year next year and the offseason. We would hold the top spot and teams would look to make deals with us to get in a spot to draft leinhart or young with the #1 pick. Look how SD did when they could have drafted Vick? They got Brees and Tomlinson. It would give us more picks which should be a lineman heavy draft this year. Im looking at 4 lineman this year 3 offensive and 1 defensive this draft with a TE probably in there as well.

J-Storm
10-11-2005, 04:29 AM
The jury is still out with me on whether Carr is the right or wrong fit. But really after 4 yrs of severe punishment, getting hammered left, right, centre and then some, isn't this guy entitled to $8 million? I am thinking (while the jury is still deliberating) that we need to give the guy the dollars just so he can pay the medical bills in the future that our O-Line has given him through their lack of protection to his body. Sure, possibly some of the blame has to fall on David, but maybe he needs a former QB to give him some help, advice, confidence, etc. Something needs to be done overall but we invested so much in this guy that I think we need to persevere and not overexpect (like we possibly did when we drafted him)...

touttail
10-11-2005, 05:57 AM
I ate $120 in tickets this weekend because I LOVE SPORTS...but I'm not a masochist. I knew we wouldn't show up...and we didnt'. Pathetic!
In my opinion we have the 1 WR with the most potential. We have the 1 QB with as much potential as PALMER, ROTHERLSEREKLJN-BURGER & MANNING. But I think ALL would look like Carr if they lined up under McSuck-ney & the rest of our CFL-line.
Again...this is the first "negative" post for me ever. But...I'd be lying if I said I still thought this organization was on the right path.

CAPERS and Crew....PROVE US WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE! I will continue to EAT MY TICKETS until we decide to show up. Fo' real! Sure...eating several grand a season sucks...but with $7 beers & $6 dogs....it's better than the alternative.

Mind you....I've NEVER EVER EVER said a bad word about our organization until now. 3 years of bottom-feeding didn't phase me. But this year...purely unacceptable. And undestand...if we had to lose key quality players like the Titans because we tried to extend our "rule" longer than financially viable...fine. It was a calculated risk with good intentions. But this is proving to merely be poor management and bad decisions.


Sco-tai, McNair had better realize that fans such as yourself are going to hit his pocketbook and hit it hard. Most of us season ticket holders were so hungry for a football franchise in Houston, that we will hold on to our PSLs and our season tickets. It's the single ticket sales that fills the stadium! The stadium was not full Sunday(sold out but no shows), and half empty at the 3rd quarter. This means alot of concession money that McNair lost! Now figure the Texans poor play, the single ticket sales will drop signifiantly. This means no sell outs and no TV. No TV means no TV money, low ticket sales, and a big hit on concessions! This will jump out at him on the bottom line!
McNair is a smart business man. I'm sure he didn't make his millions being stupid. He has got to make some changes in his organization of it will kill him financially!

bobby 119C :texans:

infantrycak
10-11-2005, 06:48 AM
LOL but the problem is not a coaching problem!!!!!!

Mind boggling. Seriously the coaching is just hunky dory?--all of it, Capers, Fangio, etc.? So good coaching takes basically the same team and goes from 7-9 to a putrid looking 0-4?--about to be 0-8, 12, 16? Exactly what are the signs of good coaching that are being displayed right now?

NFLforher
10-11-2005, 07:12 AM
Herv...you know I am speaking a little bit from my heart on this one. I have always had this gut about Carr, sort of like I did about Aikman. You may be right though. No one could blame the guy or the team for a parting of the ways. I just hope he is not a figure in H-town sports history like a Nolan Ryan or someone else that was shown the door and prospered elsewhere.

He will.

eriadoc
10-11-2005, 07:19 AM
Carr's contract is the issue not the man. I do not think he will be back if heads roll either, since he is tied inextricably to the front office and staff.

I am one who does not believe he has it to be a good QB in this league for more than a three game stretch. I could easily seeing DC not catching on like Couch as well with another team if he were to be released.

I'll just have to disagree with you on Carr's potential, I guess. If he goes to a team that protects him, the Carr doubters will be kicking themselves when they see what he does. There is one crucial difference between Carr and Couch - Tim Couch had a career-ending shoulder injury (maybe arm) that no one wanted to talk about until he finally washed out with GB. Carr doesn't (yet) have any significant injuries that we know about. Leaving here would be the best thing for his career.

Buffi2
10-11-2005, 07:32 AM
I think that Carr could be a good QB - perhaps not great - but good if he had adequate or even semi-adequate protection. I haven't given up on him yet. The best thing for both him and AJ would be to find another team - but I hope the Texans find a coach that can bring out the best in both of them.

U4ikrob
10-11-2005, 08:06 AM
Of course you keep Carr - Hasnt he proven himself enough by now that hes willing to get out there and keep taking the hits and still keep drinking the battle red kool-aid alebit while knowing the staff and front office have basically sold him down the river for a non-producing LB and CB combo and ignored the owner's request for an O-line? It's hard to produce a Pro-Bowl performance when a majority of your time behind the line is spent being Sacked - hurried or PRessures a "Majority' of the downs of every game. I think anyone here would be hard pressed to find a QB i nthe league who could succeed even marginally under those conditions.

I'm not saying DC doesnt make mistakes - EVery QB i nthe league will - his are just magnified a thousand times because nobody has anything else to look at. How about 3 seconds to throw guys? Is that too much on a passing down? Sure he needs to calm the happy feet a bit so he can develop pocket presence - but honestly when has he ever had a consistent pocket to throw from? Counting last year he hasnt had time to throw the ball since the middle of last season when the sack totals began piling up again.

It's the lack of talent, bad techinique, lazy players and bad coaching along with no TE as a scoring threat that has given every D-fense in the league a free pass to our backfield IMO. They have no fear of our offense and as long as they dont fear us - they will keep bringign the pressure - Honestly why wouldnt they? We certainly have shown no signs of being able to protect DC. I think DC will do the right thing and talk with McNair i nthe Off-seaso nand fidn a happy medium on a good contract - not Pro-bowl money - but decent money and some incentives to make more and give the team some wiggle room to get a decent O-line in here for a change.

IMO I think Joe and Dom need to use a Joe Gibbs - Washington style of offense - it certainly suits the personel and could actually for once provide protection for DC and maybe get some progress on offense. Go to a 2 TE max protect scheme and run our offense out of that and see what happens. WE cant protect david with 5 so how about trying it with max protect for a cahnge a majority of the time and see what happens? It works for Washington - and they dont have the greatest line or QB why not here?

HardKnockTexan
10-11-2005, 08:25 AM
I found this on Scott Writes draft blog... just saying the same ol' thing... but it's national media...

October 10th, 2005
The Houston Texans are still winless and if the season ended today they would have the #1 pick in the NFL Draft. If that holds up what would Houston do? Most assume that they would pass on Matt Leinart since they used the #1 overall pick in 2002 on David Carr, but as Lee Corso would say: "Not so fast my friend". There are whispers that Houston could clean house this offseason and with Carr due an $8 million roster bonus don't think his head isn't on the chopping block as well. Of course they could decide to trade down for a huge package of picks and select the premier offensive lineman they have been looking for, but Leinart is not out of the question. Just a little food for thought.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/blog/wrightstuff.html

BigBull17
10-11-2005, 08:38 AM
How will that work when our RB and TE cant block to save a mans life? Carr needs take some time off and come back next year when we have a new coach and line. Just let the oline rotate in and take snaps at QB. Serve them right.

Texans Horror
10-11-2005, 08:40 AM
However the only setback I really saw was the witch to a zone blocking scheme in 04. Yea it works with the run, (see Denver & Atlanta for more info) but look at their passing attacks.. Both are West Coast offenses that rely heavily on the short passes precise routes and quick development. The passing plays we have are not made for that kind of line play they are timing routes that take time to develop and they are spread out so there ismore to read. But at week 3 you cant say ok scrap the passing plays, or scrap the blocking scheme.

I saw the same thing with the zone blocking. It seems like ever since we went with the zone blocking, the Texans office has been taking two steps back. I remember the line saying it was difficult to catch on to.

More than anything else, I think the Texans need a solid O-line coach and a strong OC. The philosophies of the current coaching staff, and the way they are not holding players accountable, seems to be the worst hit that the Texans are taking. I know they are a good team because I have seen the players perform, but they can do a lot better.

Bobo
10-11-2005, 09:18 AM
Houston Chronicle: "David Carr is due an $8 million roster bonus by the end of this season. If the Texans don't exercise it, he will become a free agent. Until recently, that money and Carr's future with the Texans hadn't been an issue."

Well, it has become a very important issue now. With all this "Fire everyone" frenzy going on, it's in the background, and it shoudn't be.

If he get's that bonus, that goes against the salary cap, and he gets Pro-Bowler pay without proving he deserves it. Granted, with the o-line, some say he never was given a chance. But the fact still remains, he hasn't proved he's deserved it.

From this corner, IMO, if everyone goes out the door, Carr goes with them. He was, after all, their choice.

Now, I like Carr a lot, I think that if he is given protection from an adequate offensive line, he can one day become a good quarterback. Maybe one day he can earn that Pro-Bowl money.

But, (I'm ashamed to say this) he doesn't stand a chance with the Houston Texans. If the front office has any honor left in them, they will let this kid go before he is permanently ruined . . . like a Tim Couch or Archie Manning.

_____________________________

To question the wisdom of paying him the bonus is legit, but your conclusion of letting the kid go before he is permanently injured is pretty silly. After all, somebody would take over for him anyway and run the same risk. Why be sympathetic for Carr but not, say, Banks or Ragone? Of course, if you let Carr go, then you should be willing to go with Ragone or Banks for the near future because if you take Leinart with the first pick you'll have to shell out a ton of money for the same position once again without knowing if he'll even be as good as Carr -- and also realize he'll have a learning curve as well. If you forego the bonus and let Carr go, then fine. Give Ragone the nod and see what he can do. The guy had a good college career and might eventually work out. But don't go for Leinart in the draft. You'll be shelling out even more money for a bigger question mark. One thing is for certain -- Carr certainly is no Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith. But Leinart may very well be.

alphajoker
10-11-2005, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=CajunTexan]You know, call me crazy, ignorant, blind, whatever, but my gut tells me this guy will renegotiate his contract to give the team the cap money it needs. Surely he sees, whether his fault or not, he has not put up the numbers to warrant that contract.

Dude....I got that same gut feeling....and this time I'm sure it's not gas.

U4ikrob
10-11-2005, 09:21 AM
How will that work when our RB and TE cant block to save a mans life? Carr needs take some time off and come back next year when we have a new coach and line. Just let the oline rotate in and take snaps at QB. Serve them right.


Put the O-line staff - Dom and Charlie in that QB rotation too - maybe then they might understand the urgency of getting a Freaking O-line.

Bobo
10-11-2005, 09:22 AM
>The philosophies of the current coaching staff, and the way they are not holding players accountable, seems to be the worst hit that the Texans are taking. I know they are a good team because I have seen the players >perform, but they can do a lot better.

Talk to Buchanon about how Capers and the current coaching staff are not holding players accountable.

Bobo
10-11-2005, 09:24 AM
> Of course they could decide to trade down for a huge package of picks and >select the premier offensive lineman they have been looking for,

This would definitely be the wise move. Carr has never had the chance to show what he could do if he had some decent, consistent protection.

Huge
10-11-2005, 09:28 AM
The two different ways I'd handle it:

1. Keep Carr. Devote a lot of attention to the OL in the draft (draft at least 3 OL) and free agency. Put some real talent on the line and get somebody that knows how to coach it.

That scenario would require patience from the fans. It's not going to work right away but would be better for down the road.

2. Lose Carr. Do NOT draft a QB to replace him in the draft. It'd be pointless. Devote your attention again to the OL in the draft and in free agency. Start Banks/Ragone, bring in a cheap 3rd QB then look at drafting a QB in the '07 draft (as well as looking at another OL). By the time the '07 drafted QB is ready to take the field, the OL from the '06 class has had a year of playing together.

This scenario would also require patience from the fans.

Problem is which way do you go? That's a toughie.

SESupergenius
10-11-2005, 09:32 AM
The defense needs just as much attention. We score 20 points yesterday, the defense wasn't even in the game.

Huge
10-11-2005, 09:35 AM
I think the defense would play better if they were kept off the field for longer periods of time. As bad as the defense has played, I still think they have more talent on that side of the ball than the offense does.

But yeah, they could use an influx of talent as well.

HardKnockTexan
10-11-2005, 09:35 AM
The two different ways I'd handle it:

1. Keep Carr. Devote a lot of attention to the OL in the draft (draft at least 3 OL) and free agency. Put some real talent on the line and get somebody that knows how to coach it.

That scenario would require patience from the fans. It's not going to work right away but would be better for down the road.

2. Lose Carr. Do NOT draft a QB to replace him in the draft. It'd be pointless. Devote your attention again to the OL in the draft and in free agency. Start Banks/Ragone, bring in a cheap 3rd QB then look at drafting a QB in the '07 draft (as well as looking at another OL). By the time the '07 drafted QB is ready to take the field, the OL from the '06 class has had a year of playing together.

This scenario would also require patience from the fans.

Problem is which way do you go? That's a toughie.

The only problem I see with your second argument is that if the Texans end up with the #1 pick it would be very hard to not take Matt Leinart. There wont be another QB comming around like him for awhile. Hopefully the Texans wont be in the possition to make a decission like that for awhile.

I say that if we do loose Carr and have a shot at Leinart, we take him and then try and trade back up into the 1st round and select one of the top 5 OT's in the draft. Our 2nd and 3rd round picks in recent history havent produced much, so giving those away to move back into the 1st round seems like a decent idea to me... but.. this is only week 6.. there's a lot of football left to be played!

HardKnockTexan
10-11-2005, 09:36 AM
The defense needs just as much attention. We score 20 points yesterday, the defense wasn't even in the game.

8 of those points were "fluff" points comming at the end of the game.

texan279
10-11-2005, 09:38 AM
I think the defense would play better if they were kept off the field for longer periods of time. As bad as the defense has played, I still think they have more talent on that side of the ball than the offense does.

But yeah, they could use an influx of talent as well.

The defense would play better if the DB's were closer than 8 yards to the line of scrimmage and if we tried blitzing or at least sending more than 3 to get pressure on the QB...

Vinny
10-11-2005, 09:39 AM
The only problem I see with your second argument is that if the Texans end up with the #1 pick it would be very hard to not take Matt Leinart. There wont be another QB comming around like him for awhile. Oh stop it....There are good QB's coming out all the time and most of us overestimate the value of the current crop of draftable rookies each year. There is no guarantee that Leinart will be a star in the NFL just like there was no guarantee that Carr was the next John Elway simply because he was the best QB in his weak QB class.

Huge
10-11-2005, 09:45 AM
The only problem I see with your second argument is that if the Texans end up with the #1 pick it would be very hard to not take Matt Leinart. There wont be another QB comming around like him for awhile. Hopefully the Texans wont be in the possition to make a decission like that for awhile.

I say that if we do loose Carr and have a shot at Leinart, we take him and then try and trade back up into the 1st round and select one of the top 5 OT's in the draft. Our 2nd and 3rd round picks in recent history havent produced much, so giving those away to move back into the 1st round seems like a decent idea to me... but.. this is only week 6.. there's a lot of football left to be played!
I think Brian Brohm (Sophmore, Louisville who will probably come out early in '07) will make a better NFL QB than Leinart.

I'm just not sold on Leinart being as great as what everybody makes him out to be. I'd really like to see how he would deal with adversity (one of the most important traits of a QB). And because of the success he's had in college, nobody knows how he handles it. He simply hasn't faced any.

HardKnockTexan
10-11-2005, 10:01 AM
Even if there are other QB's that will be comming out in the '07 and '08 drafts i am praying that the Texans arent in the possition to take them. I guess if there happens to be a draft loaded with QB's, like last years, and one falls to say around 16, then picking a Tackle first overall this year and grabbing a QB next would make sence. To be honest, I dont know enough about college football prospects to assume anything.

mean mark8
10-11-2005, 10:02 AM
Even a fresher thought, why don't you get Tony Boselli to be the left book end?
Don't you know we only took Boselli with our first overall ever pick so that we could get to G. Walker and S. Payne? I mean, look at how well they've worked out too. The Jags must've known all 3 were injuries waiting to happen. :ouch:

mean mark8
10-11-2005, 10:15 AM
If not David, then who? Banks? Ragone?

Neither has shown much promise.



Ragone was the MVP of NFL Europe. Can you say Jake Delhomme? He won a World Bowl, the old name for NFL Europe, before being given a chance to take the Panthers to Super Bowl XXXVIII where his passer rating of 113.6 was the highest for a quarterback starting his first Super Bowl since San Francisco's Steve Young posted a passer rating of 134.8 in 1995 in Super Bowl XXIX. Young's performance also marked the last time a quarterback has had a quarterback rating higher than Jake's in any Super Bowl. I'd say that shows at least some promise.

mean mark8
10-11-2005, 10:22 AM
The defense would play better if the DB's were closer than 8 yards to the line of scrimmage and if we tried blitzing or at least sending more than 3 to get pressure on the QB...

I am with you. Where are all of those exotic blitzes we heard about in the offseason? I remember the play against Big Ben where we only rushed 2 with 9 in coverage and he stood there 'til the cows came home before finding a receiver for a 20-yard gain. For crying out loud, where are our blitzes? Where are the fruits of our getting "faster" by lowering our 330 pound linemen to 315? Our defense has been bad since after our first year. We let Posey go to Buffalo after being our sack leader and waived Steve Foley so he could go on to become a Pro Bowler for the Chargers. Our Defensive staff hasn't got a clue just like our offense. :goodnight

exclude
10-11-2005, 10:31 AM
:texflag: I would not pay ...let him go free agent and sign him for less in a month .

Why would he sign for less when teams like the Jets or Chicago or even New Orleans(doubt it since Brooks is till there for a few more years) would pay a premium for his services??? Do you really expect Carr's reputation and future is damaged severely to the point where he can't command premium dollars in Free Agency???

exclude
10-11-2005, 10:43 AM
I am with you. Where are all of those exotic blitzes we heard about in the offseason? I remember the play against Big Ben where we only rushed 2 with 9 in coverage ....


That is the exotic blitz package your referring to...its called No Blitz...see really exotic and different :)

Bobo
10-11-2005, 10:47 AM
Even if there are other QB's that will be comming out in the '07 and '08 drafts i am praying that the Texans arent in the possition to take them. I guess if there happens to be a draft loaded with QB's, like last years, and one falls to say around 16, then picking a Tackle first overall this year and grabbing a QB next would make sence. To be honest, I dont know enough about college football prospects to assume anything.

You certainly wouldn't want to take a OL with a #1 overall pick. You might want to trade down, get a boatload of picks, and then use them to get some OL help. But you don't want to pay an OL #1 overall draft money. There will be folks begging to get in position to get Leinart. Get some more picks and trade down. You'd still get the best OL around. But remember, the OL is one of the worst places to have a rookie. These veteran DL eat them for breakfast.

Bobo
10-11-2005, 10:50 AM
The two different ways I'd handle it:

1. Keep Carr. Devote a lot of attention to the OL in the draft (draft at least 3 OL) and free agency. Put some real talent on the line and get somebody that knows how to coach it.

That scenario would require patience from the fans. It's not going to work right away but would be better for down the road.

2. Lose Carr. Do NOT draft a QB to replace him in the draft. It'd be pointless. Devote your attention again to the OL in the draft and in free agency. Start Banks/Ragone, bring in a cheap 3rd QB then look at drafting a QB in the '07 draft (as well as looking at another OL). By the time the '07 drafted QB is ready to take the field, the OL from the '06 class has had a year of playing together.

This scenario would also require patience from the fans.

Problem is which way do you go? That's a toughie.

I wouldn't take a QB in the draft for the forseeable future when you have Ragone. Ragone was a very good QB in college. If you would let Carr go, then you should give Ragone the reins. But if you did this, my feeling would be that you'd regret it because then Carr would go somewhere that did have some pass protection and he would tear you up and make you cry.

Bobo
10-11-2005, 10:52 AM
>This scenario would also require patience from the fans.

Lemme get this straight. You expect patience out of people who want to fire a coach who has brought improvement to an expansion team every single year thus far after he lost three games they were expected to lose and lost only one game they were favored to win? Fat chance.

outofhnd
10-11-2005, 02:18 PM
I think Buchanons lack of quality CB play has limited our ability to blitz in other words we dont have the confidence to bring the house because we leave ourselves vulnerable On the LCB side.

I didnt say the Coaching is Honky Dory but at the same time you cant expect in 5 years with the revolving door for players coming in and out to build a consistent winning franchise till you can build your depth.

See the NE Patriots in 1995 - 1999 Im sure there were critics saying get rid of belichek, look what happened there. it took time but they are now the premier team in the NFL we are using that same formula, But we do not have enough talent across the board to be that winning team year in and year out. Once we do get the talent in here via draft or FA we will start winning

z0rpAn
10-11-2005, 02:22 PM
yes, you keep carr. As far as I'm conserned, you keep him on the bench until the O-Line shows that they can protect him.

GP
10-11-2005, 02:58 PM
I guess we could keep Carr and then just cut AJ, DD, Dunta, Jabar Gaffney and every other star-caliber player we have.

Then, we could sign top tier o linemen with all that freed up money and stack the o line with the best line in the league.

Start Morency, Mathis, and other rooks and free agents to fill the gaps we created by dropping our star-caliber players.

THEN...we will see if Carr can play as well as all you Carr apologists claim he can play.

Would that satisfy all of you? I mean, if he had an all-pro bowl o line...would THAT be enough for you? Probably not. You'd just make the excuse that we don't have a RB or any WRs for him to throw to.

It's just always going to be something to give the golden boy a pass on his performances. As Dr. Evil would say: Boo friggidy hoo.

GP
10-11-2005, 03:06 PM
Compare and contrast DD and Dunta against Carr, relating to their on-field performances as well as their overall attitude....

Just do it for me. One time. One game. Just watch. Please.

Teams keep bringing the house agianst Carr because they know there is a shaky line AND a guy who has lost touch on his passes and can't connect on anything but curls, slants, and dump-offs. He's buying what everybody is selling...instead of being like Dunta and DD and saying, "You know what? Heck no! I gotta get it done. It starts with me."

That's what Dunta said. Dunat said it starts with Dunta. Carr hasn't said that. If he has, show me. Nope. It's "....until I can get MY confidence up in THEM (WRs) then we don't have much of a chance." He'll sure as heck get happy when he scores a TD after a busted pass play--his fault for not being able to make clear cut decision and just THROW THE BALL--but if he gets sacked...it's shake-the-head and tilt the helmet back on the back of the head like he didn't do anything wrong. Makes that smirky face and casually walks back to the sideline as if the rest of the team just doesn't understand what he's going through.

You guys defending Carr TO THE HILT is just making me vomit. Some of you are saying it's 50-50 with the o line AND Carr...but the majority of you are just defending Carr to the hilt without even for one second admitting that he is also a very real part of the problem.

We have NO passing game, but DD racks up big games with 11 guys gunning for him on each play.

We have NO defense, and yet teams won't throw to Dunta's side of the field.

But they keep coming for Carr, and he keeps taking the bait.

1-2-3-throw the ball. 1-2-3 throw the ball. 1-2-3 throw the ball. Do it over and over and show the defenders that you can do it, and they will drop back into coverage, and guess what?...the field opens up a little bit, doesn't it?

Make a pre-determined decision and get rid of it. Until he does it with consistency, teams will not hesitate to storm the backfield. It's as much his problem as it is the o line. He doesn't WANT to attempt a deep pass, and even when he does...it doesn't resemble the poise and the touch that he was known for having in the past. Where did that go? Oh, I forgot: it got "beaten out of him" by the lack of blocking.

:ok:

Coach C.
10-11-2005, 03:32 PM
Personally I say we restructure Carr's deal and we ride his talent to the playoffs with new personell(coaches and front office) in place. Dont get me wrong what I have seen in Carr is likely right on. He does have all the ability to be a top 10 qb in this league. And throughout getting his *** handed to him on sundays he still post a quality QB Rating which is second only to wins. Carr has become gun shy, and that is bad for a gunslinger. He desperately needs someone to just say throw the rock. We dont care if you throw picks just throw the ball. It is the approach that Holmgren took with Favre and JJ took with Aikman. If we let Carr go I guarantee 9 other teams will be on his jock because he is a rare blend of athlete and gunslinger. Is he worth the 8 million HELL NO, but He will be.

Kaiser Toro
10-11-2005, 03:58 PM
Compare and contrast DD and Dunta against Carr, relating to their on-field performances as well as their overall attitude....

Just do it for me. One time. One game. Just watch. Please.

Teams keep bringing the house agianst Carr because they know there is a shaky line AND a guy who has lost touch on his passes and can't connect on anything but curls, slants, and dump-offs. He's buying what everybody is selling...instead of being like Dunta and DD and saying, "You know what? Heck no! I gotta get it done. It starts with me."

That's what Dunta said. Dunat said it starts with Dunta. Carr hasn't said that. If he has, show me. Nope. It's "....until I can get MY confidence up in THEM (WRs) then we don't have much of a chance." He'll sure as heck get happy when he scores a TD after a busted pass play--his fault for not being able to make clear cut decision and just THROW THE BALL--but if he gets sacked...it's shake-the-head and tilt the helmet back on the back of the head like he didn't do anything wrong. Makes that smirky face and casually walks back to the sideline as if the rest of the team just doesn't understand what he's going through.

You guys defending Carr TO THE HILT is just making me vomit. Some of you are saying it's 50-50 with the o line AND Carr...but the majority of you are just defending Carr to the hilt without even for one second admitting that he is also a very real part of the problem.

We have NO passing game, but DD racks up big games with 11 guys gunning for him on each play.

We have NO defense, and yet teams won't throw to Dunta's side of the field.

But they keep coming for Carr, and he keeps taking the bait.

1-2-3-throw the ball. 1-2-3 throw the ball. 1-2-3 throw the ball. Do it over and over and show the defenders that you can do it, and they will drop back into coverage, and guess what?...the field opens up a little bit, doesn't it?

Make a pre-determined decision and get rid of it. Until he does it with consistency, teams will not hesitate to storm the backfield. It's as much his problem as it is the o line. He doesn't WANT to attempt a deep pass, and even when he does...it doesn't resemble the poise and the touch that he was known for having in the past. Where did that go? Oh, I forgot: it got "beaten out of him" by the lack of blocking.

:ok:


Totally agree. All I hear is if we give David this and this and this. When you pay top dollar for the top pick in the draft you expect output without major upgrades. Why did we draft him if we knew we would have to invest more? Who in the world drafts a project with the number one pick?

That is why it is evident to me that DC must go (and Cass), that is unless he want to renegotiate. We need value across the 53 man roster.

infantrycak
10-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Totally agree. All I hear is if we give David this and this and this. When you pay top dollar for the top pick in the draft you expect output without major upgrades. Why did we draft him if we knew we would have to invest more? Who in the world drafts a project with the number one pick?

You're joking right? So all a team has to do to right itself from having earned the #1 draft pick is use that pick on a QB worthy of the spot. No other major upgrades needed, not even on a brand new team that didn't earn the spot because it didn't even exist. Carr is far from perfect but that standard is ridiculous.

Coach C.
10-11-2005, 04:16 PM
You're joking right? So all a team has to do to right itself from having earned the #1 draft pick is use that pick on a QB worthy of the spot. No other major upgrades needed, not even on a brand new team that didn't earn the spot because it didn't even exist. Carr is far from perfect but that standard is ridiculous.

Infantry. I cannot believe you even wasted your time acknowledgiing such a post. You much be bored man.

infantrycak
10-11-2005, 04:28 PM
Infantry. I cannot believe you even wasted your time acknowledgiing such a post. You much be bored man.

I was waiting for my daughter to get done in the shower. I'm done with it now.

Kaiser Toro
10-11-2005, 04:53 PM
You're joking right? So all a team has to do to right itself from having earned the #1 draft pick is use that pick on a QB worthy of the spot. No other major upgrades needed, not even on a brand new team that didn't earn the spot because it didn't even exist. Carr is far from perfect but that standard is ridiculous.

Firstly, my expectations have been met year over in the winning column. Secondly, I am concerned about hitting eight wins this year. Finally, I believe Carr has done nothing to make anyone believe (maybe hope) that he will be the next big thing.

I respect anyone who does things outside of their profession and personal time to give back to the community. I appreciate and see value in the time that it takes to develop as an individual and an individual. However, when it has been 3.25 years and we see a regression in performance, development and leadership with the looming signing bonus on the horizon something needs to be said in order to begin earnest dialogue.

As far as my comment on major upgrades we had a percieved good expansion and rookie draft. We had a hotshot GM and expansion extraordinairre in Capers. Our needs were all over the place. They gambled on Carr in my estimation and they are about to be in debt due to this investment. Return on investment and total cost of ownership are in Mr. McNair's daily vocabulary and he ain't seeing it in the QB department. But to trivalize my drivel by insinuating I did not realize we were an expansion team is at best lame.

This is a business and I am a consumer of the product and own two licenses to boot. I want to see the Texans win and I really do not care what the name on the back of their jersey says just as long those parts get the results we are looking for. :texflag:

Bassinguy
10-11-2005, 06:15 PM
My gut feeling says that David can get it done with a decent o-line and a good QB coach. If they hired Kubiak, he could spend time with Carr and eliminate most of the problems. He definitely got 'em going in Denver. David has all the tools, he just needs a little direction. We need someone other than a defensive coordinator as a head coach. A good passing game helps with the running game, as it forces the LB's etc off the line to cover short routes, and forces the D-backs back into deeper coverage. Right now, D-backs are playing shallow because they are aware that Carr doesn't have time to go deep. I'd hate to see Carr go somewhere else and then become a super star QB. I do believe he has that capability, given a little direction by a quality coach. How about someone else's input on this thought?

NFLforher
10-11-2005, 06:39 PM
You're joking right? So all a team has to do to right itself from having earned the #1 draft pick is use that pick on a QB worthy of the spot. No other major upgrades needed, not even on a brand new team that didn't earn the spot because it didn't even exist. Carr is far from perfect but that standard is ridiculous.


Yeah, she must be joking.

crazy4u310
10-12-2005, 06:19 AM
Carr is NOT the problem.

Thats all I have to say.
:texflag:

HJam72
10-12-2005, 06:29 AM
Carr is NOT the problem.

Thats all I have to say.
:texflag:

Thank you. That was very informative. :ok:

osgom1
10-12-2005, 06:40 AM
Carr is good ... if he would only quit being such a WHINER !

bckey
10-12-2005, 08:36 AM
Fast forward a few games. Lets say we are 0-6 and Carr has been sacked 40+ times already. Would Carr even want the $8 million option to stick around here knowing the OL is in such bad shape that fixing it will take at least the rest of this season and the next? Carr could probably get some decent coin with another team that has a good OL already. Is it fair to keep sending him out there to get slaughtered? Wait until game 6 with the Colts and Freeney. I've got mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I like Carr and I want to see him succeed here. On the other hand is it realistic to think that he can succeed here with this thing we call an OL.

I think trading him this year is out of the question because the deadline is October 18th and we would only have seen Carr in 5 games this year. Probably not enough to do it without causing a riot. But what if Carr shows no improvement the entire season. Do we let him walk and get nothing in return? A trade could help both sides. We would gain draft picks and Carr would finally get the protection he deserves and a realistic chance to show he can/can't make it at this level. If we could some how get a #1 for Carr and get Leinart and a LT in the 1st round then the trade would be worth it. Sign a veteran QB to take the reigns next year and give the OL some time for rebuilding until you insert Leinart.

I am not a Carr hater. I have been a fan of his since day 1 even though I didn't agree with the pick. Carr has great character and I am sure he wants to succeed in Houston very badly. It just might not be possible at this point. If the Texans do opt to give Carr the $8 million then we better draft a franchise LT and be extremely aggressive in free agency to get this OL fixed. I mean signing lineman that are proven. Not no names that Casserly thinks are great bargains assuming Casserly is even around.

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 08:39 AM
Fast forward a few games. Lets say we are 0-6 and Carr has been sacked 40+ times already. Would Carr even want the $8 million option to stick around here knowing the OL is in such bad shape that fixing it will take at least the rest of this season and the next? Carr could probably get some decent coin with another team that has a good OL already. Is it fair to keep sending him out there to get slaughtered? Wait until game 6 with the Colts and Freeney. I've got mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I like Carr and I want to see him succeed here. On the other hand is it realistic to think that he can succeed here with this thing we call an OL.

I think trading him this year is out of the question because the deadline is October 18th and we would only have seen Carr in 5 games this year. Probably not enough to do it without causing a riot. But what if Carr shows no improvement the entire season. Do we let him walk and get nothing in return? A trade could help both sides. We would gain draft picks and Carr would finally get the protection he deserves and a realistic chance to show he can/can't make it at this level. If we could some how get a #1 for Carr and get Leinart and a LT in the 1st round then the trade would be worth it. Sign a veteran QB to take the reigns next year and give the OL some time for rebuilding until you insert Leinart.

I am not a Carr hater. I have been a fan of his since day 1 even though I didn't agree with the pick. Carr has great character and I am sure he wants to succeed in Houston very badly. It just might not be possible at this point. If the Texans do opt to give Carr the $8 million then we better draft a franchise LT and be extremely aggressive in free agency to get this OL fixed. I mean signing lineman that are proven. Not no names that Casserly thinks are great bargains assuming Casserly is even around.

I agree. I have been stern on Carr, but have always seen value in the Texans trying to renegotiate his contract and keeping him here. I just do not want to pay the guy 8 million for the results to date.

Vinny
10-12-2005, 08:45 AM
Fast forward a few games. Lets say we are 0-6 and Carr has been sacked 40+ times already. Would Carr even want the $8 million option to stick around here knowing the OL is in such bad shape that fixing it will take at least the rest of this season and the next? I think its the teams option...not Carrs. I believe that the figure can be renegotiated (so Carr can play hardball)...but if the team wants Carr next year its as simple as kicking in the option.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 09:02 AM
I mean signing lineman that are proven. Not no names that Casserly thinks are great bargains assuming Casserly is even around.

I am still just baffled that the Texans didn't (at least there wasn't even a whiff of a rumor about it) make a run at Houck. Three years of absolute sucking at OL and a personal directive from the team owner and zero interest in the best OL coach out there who wasn't even under contract. Yet another decision laying squarely at Casserly's doorstep. Houck has a history of taking rookies and later round picks and making great OL's. Heck he probably could have coached last year's OL up to get the best out of it instead of this coaching staff that has coached them up to get the worst out of them.

GP
10-12-2005, 09:20 AM
"However, when it has been 3.25 years and we see a regression in performance, development and leadership with the looming signing bonus on the horizon something needs to be said in order to begin earnest dialogue."

-- Kaiser Toro

-----------------------------

Forget it, Kaiser Toro. You are wasting your time trying to talk logic. All everybody wants to do is lynch the o line day after day, placing their hopes and fears--"Hope" that Carr is as good as we thought, and "Fear" that he's not--into the o line. In short, people like Carr and defend Carr for his community outreach and overall character, which I agree is very commendable and worthy of recognition, but they do it at the expense of earnest and honest evaluation of his performances. A bad game here and there is expected of all QBs in the NFL, but since Cleveland...the guy has just had CONSISTENTLY bad games game after game after game. The Cincy game was actually his best performance, and it kept the score close because he didn't make bad decisions and he didn't panic. We almost had a great chance of winning it...and then you see his panic performances against Buffalo, Steelers, and Titans, and to both you and I it's very clear that he's regressing at an exponential rate.

But....trying to point that out to the rest of the posters here is just like it was when some of us were cautioning about their poor play in the preseason. And we all know how THAT was met: LYNCH MOB. "You're not a REAL fan! You should just go away! All you do is gripe!" Blah-blah-blah. Well, it's not griping when it's legitimate, and some feel the attacks on Carr are legit and some don't. I think it's in his hands.

He might pull it out, but it's up to him. No magical wave of the wand (especially the Seth Wand) is going to help Carr. He's got to help himself, and the way I view it...he's looking for help outside of himself, and he's lacking the personal ownership that players like Dunta Robinson possess. I cannot get around Carr's printed comments. He's dug himself a hole, with or without the help of a shaky o line. Let's see how he chooses to handle all of this. I am counting on him to reverse his attitude and see the light...but I must admit, and I would think most other posters in their heart of hearts do as well, that it doesn't look promising.

I held out hope that my preseason rants would be washed away by at least a semi-average game against Buffalo, and they weren't. And the continuing saga is proving I and some others were right. And that's not being a "Downer" to do that, IMO. It's being honest and saying, "You know what? It don't look so good, folks..." But the chest beating "Real fan, not a real fan" types will always find a way to villify an honest person who is just as much a "Real fan" as they are. It's just how the circle of life works on a message board.

I would hate to think that anybody thinks any of us fans, such as myself, hate Carr and wish that he would fail. I never have stated that I wished he would fail, and it's not in my heart. But what IS in my heart is for Carr to wise up, smell the coffee, and realize that he's not being the leader he was in the past. How did we win all thos games last year? What magically happened with the o line from the Cleveland game last year fast forwarded to now?

Asking these types of questions will get you flamed. Period.

WWJD
10-12-2005, 09:23 AM
I am still just baffled that the Texans didn't (at least there wasn't even a whiff of a rumor about it) make a run at Houck. Three years of absolute sucking at OL and a personal directive from the team owner and zero interest in the best OL coach out there who wasn't even under contract. Yet another decision laying squarely at Casserly's doorstep. Houck has a history of taking rookies and later round picks and making great OL's. Heck he probably could have coached last year's OL up to get the best out of it instead of this coaching staff that has coached them up to get the worst out of them.


Agreed. The guy is an excellent coach. Wouldn't have hurt to have at least given him a call.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 09:31 AM
Forget it, Kaiser Toro. You are wasting your time trying to talk logic. All everybody wants to do is lynch the o line day after day, placing their hopes and fears--"Hope" that Carr is as good as we thought, and "Fear" that he's not--into the o line.

If in between writing your treatises you actually read other posts you would see there are plenty of people who are critical of Carr--they just aren't one comment ponies like some. And FYI, the OL which you evidently don't feel contributes to Carr's play at all is responsible for 17 of the 27 sacks so far. That is a pace of 68 for the season--that is more than any team last year and more than twice as much as the average, not good, but average OL gave up last year. But, nah, that isn't a problem. A halfway decent QB wouldn't be affected by that much less a good one.

billtxus
10-12-2005, 10:02 AM
I don't for a minute believe the 0-4 start is all Carr's fault. Frankly I think we've been fed a bill of goods these past three years that "we are on track to make the playoffs".

But, Im not sure he is a franchise quarterback worth an $8M bonus.

Why for instance does he insist on throwing 2 yard completions to Davis when time is running out in the half/quarter. He gets in trouble and dumps it to Davis. Any HS QB knows to throw the ball incomplete rather than complete a pass and lose a lot of time for no real yardage.

Why does he keep running out of bounds with the ball, when he could just toss the ball in front of him out of bounds, and avoid the sack and loss of yards? He's out of the pocket so all he has to do is flip it in front of him on his way out of bounds.

These things drive me crazy with him. He may have the tools, but Im not so sure he has the smarts. Sure he could have used better coaching, but some of these mistakes are basic, and should have been learned in HS.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 10:24 AM
Why does he keep running out of bounds with the ball, when he could just toss the ball in front of him out of bounds, and avoid the sack and loss of yards? He's out of the pocket so all he has to do is flip it in front of him on his way out of bounds.

According to NFL.com Carr has been responsible for 3 of the 27 sacks this year due to running out of bounds.

dmt217
10-12-2005, 10:29 AM
Carr is NOT the problem.

Thats all I have to say.
:texflag:

Well, according to some NFL employees, he is part of the problem….
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3392632

To Carr's credit, he takes a licking and keeps on ticking, but ask any coach or scout who watches tape of Texans games, and they'll tell you that he is to blame for a lot of the sacks.
One NFC coach who has watched tape of the Texans' games said this week that Carr has been hit so much that when he drops back and can't find a receiver immediately, he bails. That's a result of being sacked 167 times and getting hit many, many more.
An AFC personnel director who has watched the Texans says Carr has been hit so many times from so many angles that if he sets up and looks down the field and doesn't see a receiver, his head starts to swivel.
He feels the rush and instinctively expects to get crushed. When he bails, he might run right into a pass rusher. The blockers have no clue where he's going, so they don't know which way to try to take their man.

Vinny
10-12-2005, 11:28 AM
The blockers have no clue where he's going, so they don't know which way to try to take their man.I've been saying this for years.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 12:04 PM
For another way of looking at how truly horrendous the pressure on the Texans' passing game, whether it be OL,RB,TE or QB responsibility, let's look at sacks per passing play (attempts plus the sack plays)--for the top three most sacked QB's (no one else even comes close):

Carr 27 of 127 or 21% of the time a pass is called he ends up sacked.
Culpepper 20 of 153 or 13%
Bulger 20 of 225 or 8.8%

For contrast--some of the best QB's:
Manning 1 of 147 or .7%
McNabb 10 of 210 or 4.7%
Palmer 7 of 171 or 4.1%

Mull this one over. As a rough estimate, a QB probably gets hurried at least twice as many times as sacked. Now think about that 21% and a more normal 5-6%

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 01:00 PM
For another way of looking at how truly horrendous the pressure on the Texans' passing game, whether it be OL,RB,TE or QB responsibility, let's look at sacks per passing play (attempts plus the sack plays)--for the top three most sacked QB's (no one else even comes close):

Carr 27 of 127 or 21% of the time a pass is called he ends up sacked.
Culpepper 20 of 153 or 13%
Bulger 20 of 225 or 8.8%

For contrast--some of the best QB's:
Manning 1 of 147 or .7%
McNabb 10 of 210 or 4.7%
Palmer 7 of 171 or 4.1%

Mull this one over. As a rough estimate, a QB probably gets hurried at least twice as many times as sacked. Now think about that 21% and a more normal 5-6%

Thank you for the stats. But I just see a QB who plants his back foot and then runs if he can't pass to the receiver he is locked onto. I, nor anyone else, I belive, is suggesting that David is the reason for all of our problems. I just feel that there are many who believe that it is all the offensive line.

After 3 years of seeing the same results and belittling the O line, deservedly so, I just started watching DC more in the pocket and came to the conclusion that it is not all on the line when it comes to the passing game.

Right now I just want one win and I do not take care how we get there. If David plays the game of his life ths weekend then his performance will have helped achieve the result we all want and I will be extremely thankful.

SESupergenius
10-12-2005, 02:38 PM
So the answer for Carr is to get rid of the football once he feels pressure. Ok let's got with that. Considering the lack of time he has to go through his recievers or let the play develope, we would be limiting ourselves to quick slants and dump offs. Oh yea, we already tried that. What this does is allow the defense to play closer in because they don't have to worry about anything over 10 yards. On top of that, Carr can really only make 2 reads at most. This is where the "locking on" fanfare will come from. This board would have a field day with it. I think Palmer was trying to do that, to shorten up the field and not take the sack, but with that leads to single looks and many interceptions, especially if your opponent KNOWS that you can't throw downfield because YOU HAVE NO PASS PROTECTION.

U4ikrob
10-12-2005, 02:43 PM
Seriously I dont comprehend why the OC doesnt go to more Max protect [2 te] formations and use a base offense to force protection and give the QB time to go thru his reads. IT certainly would give at least 3 seconds to throw a majority of the time and granted it's a little more old school, but it's working in Washington for Gibbs and the over the hill bunch - why not a little more of that here?

eriadoc
10-12-2005, 02:54 PM
I just feel that there are many who believe that it is all the offensive line.

I don't feel that it's all the offensive line. I do feel that it all stems from the offensive line (distinct difference), starting three years ago. And it's never gotten consistently better. Blame as much of it as you want on Carr, but the fact of the matter is, he's been trained to keep his head on a swivel. He's been trained to bail. He's been trained to get nervous after his first read ---

Because, just like Pavlov's dog, he knows what's coming. He's been trained.

What's been training him has to be changed before we get our next QB.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 02:59 PM
Seriously I dont comprehend why the OC doesnt go to more Max protect [2 te] formations and use a base offense to force protection and give the QB time to go thru his reads. IT certainly would give at least 3 seconds to throw a majority of the time and granted it's a little more old school, but it's working in Washington for Gibbs and the over the hill bunch - why not a little more of that here?

Because when they try it, it doesn't work for either the running game or passing game. Despite the extra TE's opposing teams are still able to rush only 4 and get pressure leaving 7 to cover 2--not a good equation. The run game has also gotten stuffed out of that formation. Both the passing and running games have been much more successful out of 3+ WR formations. Basically the pass rush comes just as fast but the running lanes are bigger for DD and Carr.

GP
10-12-2005, 03:13 PM
It's 50-50.

50% Carr

50% o line

It takes two to tango, and I bet you'd see an instant jolt of pass protection with Ragone or Banks in there. Why? I would bet there is HUGE animosity between Carr and his o line right now. They won't say it, but it's there.

And since it's 50-50...neither side will be humble enough to be the bigger man/men and get negotiations started on rebuilding the relationship.

Carr struggles when he DOES have time...Then the line gets blown off the ball and Carr doesn't have time...etc.....etc....etc....

It has caused division among them, and I think you basically have confusion on everybody's behalf as to how to get the bleeding to stop.

But I do know this: It would help if Carr would stop making the ignorant comments to the press and just be the bigger person. We all KNOW he is the bigger person, and we all KNOW that the o line is shaky. It's not a big secret and nobody will really argue that the o line is NOT shaky. But knowing it doesn't always equate to stopping it. And that's where Carr has to be the bigger person and stop the pouting, stop the comments, stop the attitude, and (GASP!) every now and then raise a hand after he messed up and say, "My bad! That one's on me...."

That sort of thing goes a loooooong way to building bridges, even though it shouldn't have to be done. But being a leader means you can't always be right in what YOU think. You sometimes have to admit your weaknesses, your downfalls, and generally lower YOURSELF to raise others up.

Does the o line deserve to be lifted up? Nope. Not really. But it can't hurt to try. And along the way, Carr might actually see some of his mistakes and actually try harder to control what HE can control instead of pleading his own case after busted plays.

That's all I got. I don't what else to say on this topic.

It's 50-50. And they need to grow up and shake hands and start working like a team.

SESupergenius
10-12-2005, 03:57 PM
Oh come on now, you are just spewing stuff out the bottom part of your shorts now. You are becoming worse than a soap opera with the "animosity" take by inserting your own agenda against Carr into the minds of what you think the offensive line is doing. Get real. There is no "conspiracy" against Carr by the offensive lineman, that's just plain whack. Carr has been owning up to his play, he's been trying to keep it civil by saying "we" as in we as a team. If he can say "I" while he's doing bad, he then can say "I" when he's doing good, and that wouldn't fly with the rest of the team I can guarantee you that.

Please go back and look at the games, and not only the sacks, look at the pressures, the miscues, the plays and the attitude of everyone. Carr is not going to hit 100% of the time, EVERY QB misfires. That is just weak.

ocd
10-12-2005, 04:12 PM
do you keep Carr? heck yes

*****s here would say to get rid of Manning, Brady, Vick just because our O line sucks and makes the QB look horrible. Put Carr behind the line of the colts, patriots or falcons and then think about it.

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 04:51 PM
I don't feel that it's all the offensive line. I do feel that it all stems from the offensive line (distinct difference), starting three years ago. And it's never gotten consistently better. Blame as much of it as you want on Carr, but the fact of the matter is, he's been trained to keep his head on a swivel. He's been trained to bail. He's been trained to get nervous after his first read ---

Because, just like Pavlov's dog, he knows what's coming. He's been trained.

What's been training him has to be changed before we get our next QB.

So under your Pavlov theory we will be a paying a dog 8 million? :confused:

frequentfliertx
10-12-2005, 05:45 PM
I'm in David's corner. Actually I feel rather sorry for him. THAT OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PIECE OF ****! Every Sunday he's fighting for his life out there on the field. He's not to blame. How can he POSSIBLY be expected to play up to his full potential if he's not receiving the proper protection. In addition to that his receiving corps suck. The ball is thrown into their hands and they can't hold onto it. Sometimes he overthrows the ball, but no one's perfect.
Nuff said.

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 06:33 PM
I'm in David's corner. Actually I feel rather sorry for him. THAT OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PIECE OF ****! Every Sunday he's fighting for his life out there on the field. He's not to blame. How can he POSSIBLY be expected to play up to his full potential if he's not receiving the proper protection. In addition to that his receiving corps suck. The ball is thrown into their hands and they can't hold onto it. Sometimes he overthrows the ball, but no one's perfect.
Nuff said.

Appreciate you saying Nuff.

eriadoc
10-12-2005, 06:42 PM
So under your Pavlov theory we will be a paying a dog 8 million?

Actually, check back into the first couple pages of the thread and you'll see that I do not advocate paying him the $8 million. I maintain my stance that any QB put in our offense for the past 3+ years would be in the same position Carr is in. As sad as that is, you have to staunch the bleeding, both in play and in salary. Renegotiate his contract if he wants to stay, or let him go, whichever. Don't pay $8 million to something you're going to waste. Similarly, don't go out and draft a 1st round QB and pay $50 million or more before you are ready to protect that investment.

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 06:45 PM
Actually, check back into the first couple pages of the thread and you'll see that I do not advocate paying him the $8 million. I maintain my stance that any QB put in our offense for the past 3+ years would be in the same position Carr is in. As sad as that is, you have to staunch the bleeding, both in play and in salary. Renegotiate his contract if he wants to stay, or let him go, whichever. Don't pay $8 million to something you're going to waste. Similarly, don't go out and draft a 1st round QB and pay $50 million or more before you are ready to protect that investment.

Touche my fellow Texan. If you read my posts, as well, then you would see that you and I are in the same camp. :texflag:

Bongo59
10-12-2005, 07:16 PM
If Carr was to leave, I bet the Jets, Bears, or even the Skins would make a hard push for him...carr would never get 8 million from anybody except the Texans..........he is worse than harrington..................the Texans should let him go rebuild the OL first let Raggone play, save the cap and get a QB in round one in 2007.......that is th eresponsible way to go about it...........no way you can justify that cash to Carr.

CajunTexan
10-12-2005, 07:21 PM
Well, according to some NFL employees, he is part of the problem….
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3392632

According to McClain in this same article, we will be able to debate Carrs performance for an additional three years, as he states that McNair will pony up the money to extend his contract for 3 more years before the season is over.

Also, a good article in this weeks SI about young QB's. Their take on Carr is that he has had some success and is still considered a franchise QB with a great arm, although he is showing signs of regressing this year. Obviously not saying anything new, just someone else's view.

CajunTexan
10-12-2005, 07:24 PM
carr would never get 8 million from anybody except the Texans..........he is worse than harrington..................the Texans should let him go rebuild the OL first let Raggone play, save the cap and get a QB in round one in 2007.......that is th eresponsible way to go about it...........no way you can justify that cash to Carr.

Bongo...do you honestly believe that Joey Harrington is a better QB than Carr? If so, please give me some justification of this opinion, before I dismiss it as ridiculous! On second thought, never mind.

Dissssssmmmmiiissssseeeedddddd! :brickwall

Kaiser Toro
10-12-2005, 07:25 PM
According to McClain in this same article, we will be able to debate Carrs performance for an additional three years, as he states that McNair will pony up the money to extend his contract for 3 more years before the season is over.

Also, a good article in this weeks SI about young QB's. Their take on Carr is that he has had some success and is still considered a franchise QB with a great arm, although he is showing signs of regressing this year. Obviously not saying anything new, just someone else's view.

Fair article, thanks for posting.

Sounds like an endorsement or the kiss of death, regardless the holy grail has escaped us again.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 07:48 PM
carr would never get 8 million from anybody except the Texans..........he is worse than harrington..................the Texans should let him go rebuild the OL first let Raggone play, save the cap and get a QB in round one in 2007.......that is th eresponsible way to go about it...........no way you can justify that cash to Carr.

As an FYI to everyone. Bongo is yet another Flaming Tack fan who is generously donating his time to the Texans to tell them how to right the ship. Thanks Bongo for the insightful and oh so honest comparison of Harrington to Carr.

Bongo59
10-12-2005, 07:53 PM
what does it matter who i root for? the decision on Carr should be an easy one no matter who you root for............he has done nothing to deserve the bonus.

infantrycak
10-12-2005, 08:03 PM
To deserve the bonus, no, but that isn't really the question. NFL teams operate within a salary cap and have to be built primarily thru the draft. Option #1 is certainly to try to renegotiate a lower cap figure with him but the cost of dumping from a busted pick perspective and having to replace use another pick plus the cap money into the new pick and the time to train up a new QB all within a scheme of trying to get an OL that won't get any QB killed mean the decision is not so obvious.

Who you root for matters when you make silly comments like Harrington is better than Carr. Despite Carr's less than stellar performance, his QB rating has been better than Harrington's every single year even though Harrington in his career has been sacked 15 less times than Carr was his rookie year and Harrington plays on an offense with 7 1st round picks and Carr plays in one with 2.

CajunTexan
10-12-2005, 08:16 PM
To deserve the bonus, no, but that isn't really the question. NFL teams operate within a salary cap and have to be built primarily thru the draft. Option #1 is certainly to try to renegotiate a lower cap figure with him but the cost of dumping from a busted pick perspective and having to replace use another pick plus the cap money into the new pick and the time to train up a new QB all within a scheme of trying to get an OL that won't get any QB killed mean the decision is not so obvious.

Who you root for matters when you make silly comments like Harrington is better than Carr. Despite Carr's less than stellar performance, his QB rating has been better than Harrington's every single year even though Harrington in his career has been sacked 15 less times than Carr was his rookie year and Harrington plays on an offense with 7 1st round picks and Carr plays in one with 2.

Can i get a "Hoo/Haw" for infantrycak??!!! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

SESupergenius
10-12-2005, 08:53 PM
Lesson to newbies:

2 things you don't want to do on this board:

1) Don't argue with Huge about the Cowboys

2) Don't argue with Infantry about the Texans

Vinny
10-12-2005, 09:03 PM
Or argue with Ses about the 3-4