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the wonger need food
10-10-2005, 01:25 PM
Can someone do a little research and find out how our line compares with others on the pay scale. I know they are all overpaid, but it would be nice to see how they compare. My guess is that they are in the top 5.

touttail
10-10-2005, 01:47 PM
Position
2004 OL

Player Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value
Tait, John Bears $ 535,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 9,550,000 $ 13,085,000 $ 10,585,000
Ogden, Jonathan Ravens $ 3,473,529 $ 5,686,470 $ 1,500,300 $ 10,660,299 $ 9,102,289
Samuels, Chris Redskins $ 5,132,000 $ 0 $ 1,400,000 $ 6,532,000 $ 8,749,921
Jones, Walter Seahawks $ 7,084,800 $ 0 $ 0 $ 7,084,800 $ 7,084,800
Pace, Orlando Rams $ 6,021,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 7,021,000 $ 7,021,000
Davis, Leonard Cardinals $ 4,815,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 5,015,000 $ 5,775,416
Allen, Larry Cowboys $ 3,500,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 3,500,000 $ 5,558,333
Runyan, Jon Eagles $ 4,500,000 $ 0 $ 700 $ 4,500,700 $ 5,500,700
Nalen, Tom Broncos $ 3,400,000 $ 0 $ 405,500 $ 3,805,500 $ 5,105,000
Lepsis, Matt Broncos $ 3,800,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 5,100,000
Shields, Will Chiefs $ 3,400,000 $ 0 $ 403,700 $ 3,803,700 $ 4,970,366
Anderson, Willie Bengals $ 3,350,000 $ 0 $ 500,000 $ 3,850,000 $ 4,921,428
Faneca, Alan Steelers $ 2,525,000 $ 975,000 $ 251,600 $ 3,751,600 $ 4,374,350
Hartings, Jeff Steelers $ 2,550,000 $ 1,150,000 $ 50,000 $ 3,750,000 $ 4,211,665
Hopkins, Brad Titans $ 760,000 $ 3,740,000 $ 4,600 $ 4,504,600 $ 4,127,932
Weiner, Todd Falcons $ 2,400,000 $ 0 $ 504,800 $ 2,904,800 $ 4,004,800
Woody, Damien Lions $ 2,000,000 $ 9,000,000 $ 504,000 $ 11,504,000 $ 4,004,000
Rivera, Marco Packers $ 2,500,000 $ 0 $ 802,400 $ 3,302,400 $ 3,927,400
Birk, Matt Vikings $ 2,590,000 $ 0 $ 405,100 $ 2,995,100 $ 3,920,877
Shelton, LJ Cardinals $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 4,300 $ 3,004,300 $ 3,837,633
Fabini, Jason Jets $ 2,400,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 2,404,000 $ 3,704,000
Roaf, William Chiefs $ 2,000,000 $ 1,250,000 $ 500,000 $ 3,750,000 $ 3,586,904
Gandy, Wayne Saints $ 2,750,000 $ 0 $ 400 $ 2,750,400 $ 3,583,733
Miller, Fred Titans $ 660,000 $ 3,840,010 $ 3,900 $ 4,503,910 $ 3,547,252
Thomas, Tra' Eagles $ 1,950,000 $ 0 $ 250,000 $ 2,200,000 $ 3,495,714
Williams, Mike Bills $ 486,250 $ 1,250,000 $ 1,400 $ 1,737,650 $ 3,301,414
Verba, Ross Browns $ 535,000 $ 2,750,000 $ 3,100 $ 3,288,100 $ 3,204,766
Clifton, Chad Packers $ 535,000 $ 10,000,000 $ 1,001,500 $ 11,536,500 $ 3,203,166
Kreutz, Olin Bears $ 1,500,000 $ 0 $ 504,800 $ 2,004,800 $ 3,171,466
McKinney, Steve Texans $ 2,350,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 2,450,000 $ 3,150,000
Adams, Flozell Cowboys $ 570,000 $ 0 $ 504,000 $ 1,074,000 $ 3,074,000
Glenn, Tarik Colts $ 660,000 $ 1,840,000 $ 2,400 $ 2,502,400 $ 3,063,066
Clement, Anthony Cardinals $ 2,400,000 $ 0 $ 2,000 $ 2,402,000 $ 3,002,000
Wahle, Mike Packers $ 2,100,000 $ 0 $ 501,100 $ 2,601,100 $ 2,976,100
Teague, Trey Bills $ 1,500,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 2,400 $ 3,502,400 $ 2,877,400
Mitchell, Jeff Panthers $ 535,000 $ 1,965,000 $ 2,400 $ 2,502,400 $ 2,853,650
McKinnie, Bryant Vikings $ 600,000 $ 4,350,000 $ 100,000 $ 5,050,000 $ 2,787,888
Gross, Jordan Panthers $ 330,000 $ 5,503,500 $ 4,400 $ 5,837,900 $ 2,759,525
Neil, Dan Broncos $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 575,000 $ 1,575,000 $ 2,730,000
Jansen, Jon Redskins $ 1,400,000 $ 0 $ 3,100 $ 1,403,100 $ 2,641,194
Gallery, Robert Raiders $ 1,300,000 $ 8,000,016 $ 0 $ 9,300,016 $ 2,633,336
Flanagan, Mike Packers $ 1,758,000 $ 0 $ 351,100 $ 2,109,100 $ 2,609,100
Wiegert, Zach Texans $ 1,800,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 1,804,400 $ 2,504,400
Tucker, Ryan Browns $ 660,000 $ 4,900,000 $ 25,000 $ 5,585,000 $ 2,483,331
Mawae, Kevin Jets $ 800,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 800,000 $ 2,466,666
Petitgout, Luke Giants $ 645,000 $ 825,000 $ 4,100 $ 1,474,100 $ 2,439,100
Riley, Victor Saints $ 1,750,000 $ 0 $ 650,000 $ 2,400,000 $ 2,433,334
Olson, Benji Titans $ 535,000 $ 2,465,000 $ 4,400 $ 3,004,400 $ 2,396,985
Turley, Kyle Rams $ 535,000 $ 0 $ 3,300 $ 538,300 $ 2,360,799
Wade, Todd Texans $ 535,000 $ 10,000,000 $ 4,800 $ 10,539,800 $ 2,206,466
Newberry, Jeremy 49ers $ 535,000 $ 1,965,000 $ 0 $ 2,500,000 $ 2,153,583
Ross, Oliver Steelers $ 1,750,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 1,754,400 $ 2,121,066
Wiegmann, Casey Chiefs $ 1,300,000 $ 0 $ 400,000 $ 1,700,000 $ 2,033,333
Tucker, Rex Bears $ 1,276,471 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 1,376,471 $ 2,019,328
Thomas, Randy Redskins $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 5,200 $ 1,005,200 $ 2,005,200
Tobeck, Rob Seahawks $ 1,800,000 $ 0 $ 2,400 $ 1,802,400 $ 2,002,400
Terry, Chris Seahawks $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 800 $ 1,000,800 $ 2,000,800
Gray, Chris Seahawks $ 1,560,000 $ 0 $ 201,200 $ 1,761,200 $ 1,961,200
Gragg, Scott 49ers $ 660,000 $ 1,965,000 $ 4,000 $ 2,629,000 $ 1,957,951
Rosenthal, Mike Vikings $ 820,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 620,000 $ 4,440,000 $ 1,932,884
Smith, Marvel Steelers $ 535,000 $ 1,715,000 $ 3,600 $ 2,253,600 $ 1,881,600
Villarrial, Chris Bills $ 1,150,250 $ 2,875,000 $ 4,300 $ 4,029,550 $ 1,873,300
Whitfield, Bob Falcons $ 0 $ 240,000 $ 0 $ 240,000 $ 1,817,333
Meester, Brad Jaguars $ 1,250,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 50,000 $ 3,800,000 $ 1,800,000
Naeole, Chris Jaguars $ 1,500,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 5,600 $ 2,505,600 $ 1,786,551
Waters, Brian Chiefs $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 200,000 $ 1,200,000 $ 1,767,500
Timmerman, Adam Rams $ 660,000 $ 5,500,000 $ 3,500 $ 6,163,500 $ 1,763,500
Stone, Ron Raiders $ 1,250,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 800 $ 2,750,800 $ 1,750,800
Jones, Levi Bengals $ 465,000 $ 0 $ 300,000 $ 765,000 $ 1,725,000
Jacox, Kendyl Saints $ 750,000 $ 0 $ 275,000 $ 1,025,000 $ 1,715,000
Saturday, Jeff Colts $ 535,000 $ 1,265,000 $ 4,400 $ 1,804,400 $ 1,625,733
Forney, Kynan Falcons $ 460,000 $ 3,150,000 $ 505,200 $ 4,115,200 $ 1,595,200
Withrow, Cory Vikings $ 535,000 $ 0 $ 1,054,400 $ 1,589,400 $ 1,589,400
Sims, Barry Raiders $ 535,000 $ 1,465,000 $ 2,400 $ 2,002,400 $ 1,585,137
Piller, Zach Titans $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 1,003,600 $ 1,575,028
Middleton, Frank Raiders $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 500,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 1,500,000
Walker, Kenyatta Buccaneers $ 590,000 $ 0 $ 3,800 $ 593,800 $ 1,497,133
Hutchinson, Steve Seahawks $ 455,000 $ 0 $ 1,600 $ 456,600 $ 1,466,600
Liwienski, Chris Vikings $ 950,000 $ 0 $ 215,000 $ 1,165,000 $ 1,465,000
Brown, Orlando Ravens $ 660,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 2,400 $ 4,662,400 $ 1,462,400
Flynn, Mike Ravens $ 660,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 500 $ 4,660,500 $ 1,460,500
Foster, George Broncos $ 326,250 $ 1,600,000 $ 35,000 $ 1,961,250 $ 1,454,583
Steussie, Todd Buccaneers $ 760,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 4,100 $ 4,764,100 $ 1,430,766
Backus, Jeff Lions $ 455,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 460,600 $ 1,425,600
Diem, Ryan Colts $ 1,368,000 $ 0 $ 5,100 $ 1,373,100 $ 1,373,100
DeMulling, Rick Colts $ 1,368,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 1,372,400 $ 1,372,400
McKenzie, Kareem Jets $ 1,368,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 1,372,000 $ 1,372,000
Womack, Floyd Seahawks $ 1,368,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 1,372,000 $ 1,372,000
Williams, Maurice Jaguars $ 507,500 $ 3,000,000 $ 5,600 $ 3,513,100 $ 1,353,100
Andruzzi, Joe Patriots $ 1,200,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 1,205,600 $ 1,343,100
Folau, Spencer Saints $ 800,000 $ 750,000 $ 200,000 $ 1,750,000 $ 1,250,000
James, Jeno Dolphins $ 535,000 $ 4,250,000 $ 0 $ 4,785,000 $ 1,243,333
Goff, Mike Chargers $ 535,000 $ 3,500,000 $ 4,200 $ 4,039,200 $ 1,239,200
Badger, Brad Raiders $ 660,000 $ 2,640,000 $ 50,000 $ 3,350,000 $ 1,238,000
Seubert, Rich Giants $ 550,000 $ 1,600,000 $ 4,100 $ 2,154,100 $ 1,234,100
Dixon, David Vikings $ 800,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 900,000 $ 1,225,000
Wade, John Buccaneers $ 970,000 $ 0 $ 4,900 $ 974,900 $ 1,224,900
Andrews, Shawn Eagles $ 230,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 825,000 $ 2,055,000 $ 1,221,666
Faine, Jeff Browns $ 356,250 $ 2,200,000 $ 5,600 $ 2,561,850 $ 1,211,014
Braham, Rich Bengals $ 950,000 $ 250,000 $ 4,700 $ 1,204,700 $ 1,204,700
O'Hara, Shaun Giants $ 535,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 0 $ 2,535,000 $ 1,201,666
Light, Matt Patriots $ 455,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 4,200 $ 2,959,200 $ 1,198,366
Deese, Derrick Buccaneers $ 760,000 $ 2,475,000 $ 2,100 $ 3,237,100 $ 1,174,600
Simmons, Kendall Steelers $ 600,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 603,600 $ 1,139,264
Tauscher, Mark Packers $ 455,000 $ 2,250,000 $ 5,200 $ 2,710,200 $ 1,124,485
Carey, Vernon Dolphins $ 230,000 $ 2,300,000 $ 430,000 $ 2,960,000 $ 1,120,000
Mulitalo, Edwin Ravens $ 535,000 $ 0 $ 500 $ 535,500 $ 1,106,928
Salaam, Ephraim Jaguars $ 535,000 $ 200,000 $ 468,600 $ 1,203,600 $ 1,103,600
Mayberry, Jermane Eagles $ 700,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 800,000 $ 1,100,000
Hicks, Artis Eagles $ 380,000 $ 600,000 $ 603,800 $ 1,583,800 $ 1,086,300
Williams, Bobbie Bengals $ 650,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 100,000 $ 1,750,000 $ 1,083,333
Spears, Marcus Texans $ 760,000 $ 240,000 $ 25,000 $ 1,025,000 $ 1,025,000
Mathews, Jason Titans $ 950,000 $ 0 $ 4,500 $ 954,500 $ 1,017,000
Colombo, Marc Bears $ 319,853 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 325,453 $ 1,015,453
Welbourn, John Chiefs $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 1,900 $ 1,001,900 $ 1,001,900
Oben, Roman Chargers $ 1,000,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 1,000,000 $ 1,000,000
Brown, Ruben Bears $ 660,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 3,400 $ 1,663,400 $ 996,733
McCollum, Andy Rams $ 800,000 $ 0 $ 4,300 $ 804,300 $ 987,633
McIntosh, Damion Dolphins $ 535,000 $ 300,000 $ 400,000 $ 1,235,000 $ 985,000
Garmon, Kelvin Browns $ 550,000 $ 1,250,000 $ 3,500 $ 1,803,500 $ 970,166
Joyce, Matt Lions $ 660,000 $ 0 $ 2,800 $ 662,800 $ 962,800
McDougle, Stockar Lions $ 535,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 538,600 $ 918,600
Harris, Kwame 49ers $ 305,000 $ 179,803 $ 64,000 $ 548,803 $ 913,252
St Clair, John Dolphins $ 600,000 $ 600,000 $ 0 $ 1,200,000 $ 900,000
McClure, Todd Falcons $ 550,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 4,400 $ 1,554,400 $ 887,733
Raymer, Cory Redskins $ 750,000 $ 400,000 $ 3,100 $ 1,153,100 $ 886,433
Fraley, Hank Eagles $ 650,000 $ 0 $ 3,900 $ 653,900 $ 853,900
Klemm, Adrian Patriots $ 550,000 $ 0 $ 55,600 $ 605,600 $ 850,600
Bober, Chris Chiefs $ 535,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 15,000 $ 2,050,000 $ 850,000
Fonoti, Toniu Chargers $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 800 $ 380,800 $ 815,800
Pearson, Mike Jaguars $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 385,600 $ 810,600
Raiola, Dominic Lions $ 455,000 $ 0 $ 25,000 $ 480,000 $ 806,333
Beverly, Eric Falcons $ 550,000 $ 750,000 $ 5,600 $ 1,305,600 $ 805,600
Moore, Brandon Jets $ 705,000 $ 400,000 $ 30,000 $ 1,135,000 $ 801,665
Treu, Adam Raiders $ 660,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 664,000 $ 800,761
Brzezinski, Doug Panthers $ 540,600 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 545,000 $ 795,000
Stokes, Barry Giants $ 535,000 $ 1,250,000 $ 0 $ 1,785,000 $ 785,000
Brooks, Ethan Ravens $ 650,000 $ 0 $ 500 $ 650,500 $ 775,500
Bentley, LeCharles Saints $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 384,000 $ 771,500
Stinchcomb, Jon Saints $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 309,400 $ 770,650
Johnson, Al Cowboys $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 309,000 $ 764,000
Compton, Mike Jaguars $ 760,588 $ 200,000 $ 0 $ 960,588 $ 760,588
Price, Marcus Bills $ 650,000 $ 0 $ 53,200 $ 703,200 $ 753,200
Steinbach, Eric Bengals $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 5,000 $ 310,000 $ 750,000
DiNapoli, Gennaro Cowboys $ 535,000 $ 350,000 $ 4,000 $ 889,000 $ 714,000
Pitts, Chester Texans $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 385,600 $ 710,600
Snee, Chris Giants $ 320,000 $ 2,335,000 $ 0 $ 2,655,000 $ 709,166
Washington, Todd Texans $ 535,000 $ 500,000 $ 4,800 $ 1,039,800 $ 706,466
Loverne, David Lions $ 535,000 $ 500,000 $ 4,400 $ 1,039,400 $ 706,066
Williams, Grant Rams $ 660,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 663,600 $ 696,933
Slaughter, Chad Raiders $ 628,000 $ 100,000 $ 4,000 $ 732,000 $ 682,000
Ruegamer, Grey Packers $ 585,000 $ 0 $ 4,800 $ 589,800 $ 681,466
Spikes, Cameron Cardinals $ 550,000 $ 0 $ 5,200 $ 555,200 $ 680,200
Gurode, Andre Cowboys $ 408,750 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 412,750 $ 662,678
Kendall, Pete Jets $ 660,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 660,000 $ 660,000
Nesbit, Jamar Saints $ 535,000 $ 300,000 $ 25,000 $ 860,000 $ 660,000
Nelson, Bruce Panthers $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 309,400 $ 644,400
Green, Cornell Broncos $ 535,000 $ 400,000 $ 5,200 $ 940,200 $ 640,200
Smiley, Justin 49ers $ 230,000 $ 1,200,000 $ 110,000 $ 1,540,000 $ 640,000
Reyes, Tutan Panthers $ 535,000 $ 200,000 $ 4,400 $ 739,400 $ 639,400
Stinchcomb, Matt Buccaneers $ 535,000 $ 500,000 $ 4,000 $ 1,039,000 $ 639,000
Walker, Langston Raiders $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 383,600 $ 635,600
Hamilton, Ben Broncos $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 5,500 $ 633,500 $ 633,500
Garza, Roberto Falcons $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 5,200 $ 633,200 $ 633,200
Rabach, Casey Ravens $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 4,900 $ 632,900 $ 632,900
Okobi, Chukky Steelers $ 455,000 $ 692,000 $ 4,800 $ 1,151,800 $ 632,800
Zukauskas, Paul Browns $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 4,400 $ 632,400 $ 632,400
Carlisle, Cooper Broncos $ 535,000 $ 0 $ 4,700 $ 539,700 $ 631,700
Vincent, Keydrick Steelers $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 3,600 $ 631,600 $ 631,600
Anderson, Bennie Ravens $ 628,000 $ 0 $ 1,200 $ 629,200 $ 629,200
Jordan, Leander Chargers $ 535,000 $ 250,000 $ 4,000 $ 789,000 $ 622,333
Mitchell, Qasim Bears $ 305,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 4,600 $ 1,809,600 $ 608,057
Lehr, Matt Cowboys $ 591,059 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 595,059 $ 595,059
Weary, Fred Texans $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 385,600 $ 528,800
Wand, Seth Texans $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 310,600 $ 482,266
Brown, Milford Texans $ 380,000 $ 0 $ 5,600 $ 385,600 $ 409,434
Jones, Garrick Texans $ 305,000 $ 0 $ 4,000 $ 309,000 $ 309,000



I could not find figures for 2005. Maybe they haven't been released yet.
Also, i couldn't find Voctor Riley's salary.

bobby 119C

MightyTExan
10-10-2005, 03:13 PM
Why is Steve McKinney the highgest paid O-lineman?





The logic does not compute.

touttail
10-10-2005, 03:15 PM
These are 2004 salarys. I couldn't find anything for 2005.
I couldn't find Riley's salary. He is probably the highest paid lineman on our team, just guessing.

bobby 119C

Runner
10-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Note that our 5 highest paid lineman play (Riley makes $1M, right?). I guess that is how they determine who is best. Easier than all that testing and evaluation.

Q: Who should Riley replace?
A: Wand - he makes the least of last year's starters

infantrycak
10-10-2005, 03:19 PM
I couldn't find Riley's salary. He is probably the highest paid lineman on our team, just guessing.

bobby 119C

Riley is making league minimum for his experience--$665K.

touttail
10-10-2005, 03:21 PM
Thanks Infantrycak!!! :ok:

bobby 119C

ArlingtonTexan
10-10-2005, 03:22 PM
With three FA signees and Pitts getting a new deal, without doing the math, I am guessing the Texans are in the Top 10, if not top 5. Most teams have one or two homegrown mid to late round draft picks starting under the terms of thier original rookie contracts.

GoJags16
10-10-2005, 03:50 PM
If I remember correctly you guys gave Todd Wade a 10 million dollar SB to sign with the team. That was a HUGE mistake by your FO IMO. Wade was never very good with J-Ville, and apparently he isnt lighting it up in Houston either.

infantrycak
10-10-2005, 03:56 PM
Wade was never very good with J-Ville, and apparently he isnt lighting it up in Houston either.

Wade came from Miami not Jax.

nunusguy
10-10-2005, 06:05 PM
When we got Wade in the FA market last year, I went to the Miami Herald
internet site and checked out the newspapers Dolphins message Board site
provided for the local fans. Two things: (1) they howled about the price we
were paying for Wade (that is, the huge premium we were forking over for him), but (2) concensus was we were getting as good an Olineman as they
had, but even the Phin Homers agreed that their OLine was pretty mediorce at best.
But that's been our history to date in FA, our best FA acquisisions have
been at best mediorce NFL talent that we pay a premium for in order to attract over other teams being considered by the FAs with more promising playoff potential.

Scooter
10-10-2005, 06:24 PM
wade was a good idea at the time, although the price can be argued. pulling a 27 year old lineman who'd only missed 3 games total (if that, dont remember exactly), and was the right tackle for the league's leading rushing offense is hard to call a bad move. and even if he gives up a sack a game, he's a major upgrade over the journeyman we sent to dallas.

texan279
10-19-2005, 12:41 AM
per www.foxsports.com

LINK (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168)

1. Houston Texans Offensive Line
First, a little perspective on this unit. In Superman: The Movie, a teenage Clark Kent punted a football out of his high school stadium. If he played behind this line, it wouldn't matter how far he could kick the ball because he would lead the league in punts blocked. That's how inept this bunch has been since 2002 just ask quarterback David Carr.

In 2004, the Texans had the third-highest total payroll in the NFL ($97.5 million), and 19 percent of it was devoted to one of the worst offensive lines in football. Carr might have had more success stacking the $12 million between him and the defense and praying that the sight of free money would at least allow him to complete a five-step drop.

After not being able to lure Orlando Pace away from the Rams, the Texans settled on former Saints left tackle, Victor Riley. Left guard Chester Pitts is a penalty machine who led the league with 21 penalties in 2003 and then was tied for second with 14 penalties in 2004. Steve McKinney, Zach Wiegert, and Todd Wade round out a bunch that has given up 33 sacks through six games this season.

Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, or even Clark Kent won't make much of a difference in the running game as long as there is no one to block for them.

:embarrass

Keldar
10-19-2005, 12:45 AM
That's just sick.

Casserly????? You got sun splaynin' to do!!!!!

Vinny
10-19-2005, 12:48 AM
We discussed this the other day...fox sports must be lurking.

texan279
10-19-2005, 12:50 AM
We discussed this the other day...fox sports must be lurking.

Sorry if it's a repost or should be merged with another thread. It's hard to sift through the threads these days. ;)

Vinny
10-19-2005, 12:54 AM
not the article...the topic. I've never seen this piece. Im calling us smarter than them...or at least quicker.

ledzeppelin229
10-19-2005, 01:51 AM
not the article...the topic. I've never seen this piece. Im calling us smarter than them...or at least quicker.

That would not be a surprise if some of the media sources started pulling things off the board. Most of their junk is so inaccurate I'd almost prefer them too.

I think the coaching has a lot to do with it..most of these guys were atleast decent when we brought them in. At their peak, on paper this line shouldn't be this horrible. McKinney, Wiegert, Wade were all at least respectable. Pitts could probably be a lot better than he is here.

TexanFanInCC
10-19-2005, 02:24 AM
domanick davis has actually been a very respectable back this year, despite the crappy line in front of him.

SESupergenius
10-19-2005, 02:26 AM
But Vinny don't you agree that we HAVE to overpay because we were an expansion franchise?

rittenhouserobz
10-19-2005, 06:46 AM
Might as well draft players at a lower cost then pay them once they perform, than to pay a guy and hope he performs.

touttail
10-19-2005, 06:47 AM
Left guard Chester Pitts is a penalty machine who led the league with 21 penalties in 2003 and then was tied for second with 14 penalties in 2004.

Wow, I didn't know this. Chester had 3 penalities Sunday. Two for not lining up on the ball! :homer: Guess he's back to his ole bag of tricks again! :penalty:

bobby 119C :brickwall

TexanExile
10-19-2005, 08:15 AM
The original discussion must've been while I was away for a week. This is stunning to me. I knew that Wade got a big contract, but that article indicates that the line's 2004 salary--meaning before Pitts the "penalty machine" got a new deal this past offseason--was way out of line with its performance. (That could easily bring me back to my stance on Morlon Greenwood but I don't care to thump on that horse right now.)

I think Pitts deserves a bit of a break from his criticism considering the stiffs he's had to cover for at LT in '04 and '05, and in '03 he was a rookie LT on a very young offensive team. (He's no Don "Flags" Maggs, that's for sure.) But all in all, I'm amazed at these numbers. They're evidence of some atrocious cap management decisions relative to the talent being purchased.

(Casserly lovers, please insert your "It's all Dom's fault!!!!" excuses here. They amuse me more each week.) :wacko:

To be fair, when teams reach in free agency they often do it at the OL positions because there really are so few rock-solid linemen to go around among the 32 franchises. But when you're paying the most and getting the least, that cruddy line about "they just need more TIME together!" has officially become ridiculous.

I'd love to see a comparison with other O-lines in the league on these numbers (performance and penalties vs. salaries), both for franchises closer to the Texans' cellar-dwelling level and one or two from respectable offensive lines. That would be interesting.

Runner
10-19-2005, 09:16 AM
That would not be a surprise if some of the media sources started pulling things off the board. Most of their junk is so inaccurate I'd almost prefer them too.



Innaccurate? You mean like this?
former Saints left tackle, Victor Riley

We certainly pay these guys a lot of money; it's almost like we think by having expensive players we'll be better through some sort of hypergyny effect.

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 10:02 AM
Previous Thread (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=13239)

So that puts our starting offensive line at about $20 million and one fourth of total team salary. Wow... just wow.

TexanFanInCC
10-19-2005, 10:26 AM
Wow, I didn't know this. Chester had 3 penalities Sunday. Two for not lining up on the ball! :homer: Guess he's back to his ole bag of tricks again! :penalty:

bobby 119C :brickwall

im not worried. he is still one of the better and more underrated lineman in the game

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 10:30 AM
im not worried. he is still one of the better and more underrated lineman in the game

Are you kidding me? To call any single player on the offensive line "underrated" is ridiculous.

He didn't get the nickname "Drive Killer" for nothing. There's no telling how many points this guy has cost the offense over the past 3 years.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 10:36 AM
But Vinny don't you agree that we HAVE to overpay because we were an expansion franchise?yep...bad teams have to overpay...Players are competitive and want to have the world watch them in the playoffs. It's pretty logical that we have overpaid at OL since we have mostly veterans....we just haven't gotten much out of them.

TheOgre
10-19-2005, 10:55 AM
And the sad thing is that we will probably have to overpay even more next offseason if we go 2-14 or so. Who would want to play for us for market value?

The sad thing is that I had several reservations coming into this season. I assumed that about half of them would be unfounded, and we would end up around .500. Instead the team seems to have exceeded my worst possible scenario for this team in just about every facet of the game. At least Stanley and Brown are doing okay.

HeHateMe
10-19-2005, 12:42 PM
NVM reposted.... please delete

Dre_80
10-19-2005, 02:25 PM
D'oh! :brickwall :crying:
1. Houston Texans Offensive Line

First, a little perspective on this unit. In Superman: The Movie, a teenage Clark Kent punted a football out of his high school stadium. If he played behind this line, it wouldn't matter how far he could kick the ball because he would lead the league in punts blocked. That's how inept this bunch has been since 2002 just ask quarterback David Carr.

In 2004, the Texans had the third-highest total payroll in the NFL ($97.5 million), and 19 percent of it was devoted to one of the worst offensive lines in football. Carr might have had more success stacking the $12 million between him and the defense and praying that the sight of free money would at least allow him to complete a five-step drop.

After not being able to lure Orlando Pace away from the Rams, the Texans settled on former Saints left tackle, Victor Riley. Left guard Chester Pitts is a penalty machine who led the league with 21 penalties in 2003 and then was tied for second with 14 penalties in 2004. Steve McKinney, Zach Wiegert, and Todd Wade round out a bunch that has given up 33 sacks through six games this season.

Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, or even Clark Kent won't make much of a difference in the running game as long as there is no one to block for them.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168

Coach C.
10-19-2005, 02:28 PM
Just reading that made me laugh. Just another reason why this team will be demolished and rebuilt at the end of the season. The only guys that will/may survive:
CARR, Peek, D-Rob, AJ, Greenwood, P-Buc, R. Smith, T-Johnson, Jon Hoke, unfortunately Babin, Orr, Polk, Petey, Coleman, Payne, and Wade.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 02:30 PM
The total will be a tad closer to 35 - 40 players coming back...but hey, why not go exteeeeeme with our rants?

Coach C.
10-19-2005, 02:32 PM
I did not want to list all those players Vinny. Damn cut me some slack. I could list everyplayer that would be back, due to cap reasons and intagibles. But that was a little to much work. And you know I do not really rant.

Vinny
10-19-2005, 02:38 PM
You got slack...but you did post that those were the ONLY players who will survive. I just see so much misinformation posted here I just like to see it corrected...NFL fans from all over lurk here and we need to be reasonably accurate as a fan base at least. We many not have an astute GM but we can be astute fans.

Texas
10-19-2005, 02:58 PM
Yes the ranting is quite aggrivating. I support this team no matter and I beleive if you decide to rant we need to make a seperate sub-catergory for that.

mean mark8
10-19-2005, 04:38 PM
This article ranks the most overpaid players in the NFL. Something interesting of note to me is that our team has the 3rd highest payroll in the NFL! Can you believe that??? Mr. McNair, just like I'd like a refund on my season tickets, you should be writing bouncing checks to these guys. Rather than remember the Alamo, remember the San Antonio Gunslingers and don't pay these losers.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168

Man, the 3rd highest payroll in the league and we look like a wet paper sack trying to stop a Mack Truck on offense and defense. :brickwall

Texas_Thrill
10-19-2005, 04:41 PM
I think its a bit misleading though. You have to remember we have a lot of LONG-TERM contracts on our books. When you do that you cut back on what you'll be spending over the long haul and reduce the amount of increases in salary a player will have. It looks bad now but over the long-term it actually will allow us to avoid mortgaging away the franchise.

(Wow my ecnomics degree finally came in handy.)

infantrycak
10-19-2005, 05:04 PM
I think its a bit misleading though. You have to remember we have a lot of LONG-TERM contracts on our books. When you do that you cut back on what you'll be spending over the long haul and reduce the amount of increases in salary a player will have. It looks bad now but over the long-term it actually will allow us to avoid mortgaging away the franchise.

(Wow my ecnomics degree finally came in handy.)

That is one potential, but it only works if the player is, barring an unforseen injury, likely to play out the contract. Otherwise the pro-ration traps the team or creates big back loaded hits. See, Gary Walker.

Exascor
10-19-2005, 05:31 PM
My salary cap knowledge is very limited. Couldn't you cut a player now and absorb the remaining bonus this season? Wouldn't this be valuable since we have cap space this seaon? If that is the case wouldn't that increase the cap space available next season?

infantrycak
10-19-2005, 06:18 PM
My salary cap knowledge is very limited. Couldn't you cut a player now and absorb the remaining bonus this season? Wouldn't this be valuable since we have cap space this seaon? If that is the case wouldn't that increase the cap space available next season?

Yes if you cut a player you have to account for the un-prorated amount of signing bonus. Sometimes that means a player cannot be cut. For instance if the Texans only had $1 mil in cap space this year, they could not cut Walker because even though they might save $4 mil in salary to give $5 mil in cap space, his un-prorated bonus is over $7 mil. Sure you can cut players to use up cap space if you have it, but in the Texans' specific case, they need the cap space they have for re-signing Carr and some other folks on the team.

bavanlan
10-19-2005, 09:54 PM
I'd love to see a comparison with other O-lines in the league on these numbers (performance and penalties vs. salaries), both for franchises closer to the Texans' cellar-dwelling level and one or two from respectable offensive lines. That would be interesting.

Here's our starters...

Diem, Ryan (OT) - 1,368,000.00
Glenn, Tarik (OT) - 660,000.00 (2004 Pro-Bowl)
Lilja, Ryan (OG) - 230,000.00
Saturday, Jeff (c) - 535,000.00
Scott, Jake (OG) - 230,000.00
Total - $3,023,000

Stats - Total Offense:
Penalties - T-32 (Best in NFL, Tied w/ SF, who never has the ball on offense, look at the TOP)
Penalty Yards - 31st (2nd Best, again, only to SF, for the same reasons above)


Stats - Offensive Line
Sacks allowed - T-32 (best in the league, by less than half the next best...)
E. James has the second most yards rushing in the league...and he doesn't get a FB, the O-Line blocks for him...

:coolb:

the wonger need food
10-19-2005, 10:09 PM
Here's our starters...

Diem, Ryan (OT) - 1,368,000.00
Glenn, Tarik (OT) - 660,000.00 (2004 Pro-Bowl)
Lilja, Ryan (OG) - 230,000.00
Saturday, Jeff (c) - 535,000.00
Scott, Jake (OG) - 230,000.00
Total - $3,023,000

That is hilarious. Our offensive line's cap hit is probably over $10 million and are by far the worst in the league. These figures paint a very clear picture... The Texans' front office is simply incompetent... if not flat-out ignorant.

infantrycak
10-20-2005, 09:42 AM
Here's our starters...

Diem, Ryan (OT) - 1,368,000.00
Glenn, Tarik (OT) - 660,000.00 (2004 Pro-Bowl)
Lilja, Ryan (OG) - 230,000.00
Saturday, Jeff (c) - 535,000.00
Scott, Jake (OG) - 230,000.00
Total - $3,023,000

You have listed base salaries only. You have to include the pro-rated signing bonuses to get a realistic look at the cost of a line. Diem and Glenn both have contracts with $10+ mil in bonuses.

USMC_dude
10-20-2005, 12:05 PM
domanick davis has actually been a very respectable back this year, despite the crappy line in front of him.

I just want to throw in my 2 cents. DD is a great back. With the O'line he has to "make holes" I'm surprised to see the numbers he puts up every game. He's a machine (IMO) as is the rest of our overly punished backfield. Who knows what they could have done with even a so so O'line? :brickwall

mean mark8
10-20-2005, 02:02 PM
This is just a thought but doesn't everyone agree that our O-line showed some great improvement from year 1 to year 2? If you will remember, our line was then coached by a TE's coach. In year 3 we decided to hire for the first time a true offensive line coach, i.e. Pendry. Would you all agree that our offensive line performance diminished from year 2 to year 3? Now in year 4 our line is even worse after Pendry has had more time to work with them. So, we promote Pendry to offensive coordinator. Does anyone else see something wrong with this? The players haven't really changed except we are now mixing them around like lottery balls. Not that we have the greatest talent on our line, but does anyone think it has something, or perhaps a lot, to do with Pendry? :hmmm:

Ibar_Harry
10-20-2005, 02:11 PM
This is just a thought but doesn't everyone agree that our O-line showed some great improvement from year 1 to year 2? If you will remember, our line was then coached by a TE's coach. In year 3 we decided to hire for the first time a true offensive line coach, i.e. Pendry. Would you all agree that our offensive line performance diminished from year 2 to year 3? Now in year 4 our line is even worse after Pendry has had more time to work with them. So, we promote Pendry to offensive coordinator. Does anyone else see something wrong with this? The players haven't really changed except we are now mixing them around like lottery balls. Not that we have the greatest talent on our line, but does anyone think it has something, or perhaps a lot, to do with Pendry? :hmmm:

I have talked about this until I'm blue in the face. We were improving at the end of year 2 and then we decided to change the O-Line blocking scheme starting year 3. Pendry and company sold a bill of goods and it was bought hook, line, and sinker. Yes, but you will take a lot of flack over that. Almost everyone had high hopes going into year 3 based on a lot fewer sacks of David in the 2nd year and the way the team was looking despite all of the injuries we had suffered. Everything blew apart starting in year 3 and it has all to do with the total revamp of the offensive scheme...................

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 02:13 PM
People I and Vinny are not going to post this again. The pass blocking scheme is the same. The running scheme is different. Zone Blocking only refers to the running scheme. Damn Vinny I know now why you want to drink so much. Kidding man.

Ibar_Harry
10-20-2005, 02:17 PM
People I and Vinny are not going to post this again. The pass blocking scheme is the same. The running scheme is different. Zone Blocking only refers to the running scheme. Damn Vinny I know now why you want to drink so much. Kidding man.

Yes and you seem to want to forget that everything started falling apart at the start of year 3 when this change was made. What was the biggest change? Of course the blocking scheme which requires a certain type of personnel which we don't have. How many people are effective employing this scheme who are considered to be passing teams. Denver is not a passing team and neither is Baltimore.

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 02:24 PM
Yes and you seem to want to forget that everything started falling apart at the start of year 3 when this change was made. What was the biggest change? Of course the blocking scheme which requires a certain type of personnel which we don't have. How many people are effective employing this scheme who are considered to be passing teams. Denver is not a passing team and neither is Baltimore.

And Neither are we. What is your point man.

mean mark8
10-20-2005, 02:28 PM
People I and Vinny are not going to post this again. The pass blocking scheme is the same. The running scheme is different. Zone Blocking only refers to the running scheme. Damn Vinny I know now why you want to drink so much. Kidding man.

Pass blocking scheme may be the same but the production is not. Something in what coach Pendry is teaching has changed things. Maybe he teaches a different technique in pass blocking. The scheme can be the same but the methods to carry it out can be different. Seems to me that Wade looked better in year 3 than in year 4. He had technique that he brought with him from Miami that IMO apparently Pendry has changed. Seth Wand was described as the proto-type offensive tackle for the NFL but Pendry couldn't get it done with him. Pitts was supposedly not an NFL tackle, but the TE coach had him playing one, at least seemingly average and headed in the right direction in year 2. IMO, it would appear that Pendry has changed something in the pass protection as well, if not scheme, then technique.

Ibar_Harry
10-20-2005, 02:35 PM
Another article on zone blocking by Denver (http://www.leonardsports.com/articles.asp?fpartID=3104)

Everything you read about on zone blocking emphasises that it is a technique that requires some length of time to learn, requires a certain kind of athlete, and requires players who remain aggressive in their blocking techniques and do not let down. The technique is always talked about in terms of a running game and passing is mentioned if at all as an after thought. Very few professional teams employ it and there must be a reason. YES THE TEXANS AND CAPERS DOWNFALL STARTED WHEN THEY WENT TO ZONE BLOCKING..........................................

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 02:41 PM
Pass blocking scheme may be the same but the production is not. Something in what coach Pendry is teaching has changed things. Maybe he teaches a different technique in pass blocking. The scheme can be the same but the methods to carry it out can be different. Seems to me that Wade looked better in year 3 than in year 4. He had technique that he brought with him from Miami that IMO apparently Pendry has changed. Seth Wand was described as the proto-type offensive tackle for the NFL but Pendry couldn't get it done with him. Pitts was supposedly not an NFL tackle, but the TE coach had him playing one, at least seemingly average and headed in the right direction in year 2. IMO, it would appear that Pendry has changed something in the pass protection as well, if not scheme, then technique.

MeanMark way to make a credible post. you are right on the change in the pass protection.

Coach C.
10-20-2005, 02:44 PM
Ibar if you are making the point that we do not have the athletes to run zone blocking then I might agree with you, but to imply that Zone Blocking is the reason we cannot block is crazy. Denver is 5-1 right now. The main problem is that Pendry and whoever the other line guy is cant remember his name have changed the pass protection scheme. This is evident in watching how the linemen set up in pass protection which for the people who cant spot it is in the way they slide to their base. Our lineman are not getting to their base and that is evidence of a change. That has nothing to do with ZoneBlocking.

infantrycak
10-20-2005, 02:47 PM
Denver is not a passing team ...

2004 Jake Plummer 521 passing attempts 4089 yds--yet another good call by Ibar.

The technique is always talked about in terms of a running game and passing is mentioned if at all as an after thought.

Duh!!! That is exactly what many people have been telling you when you keep bringing up this drivel about zone blocking and the pass protection--they aren't related.

Very few professional teams employ it and there must be a reason.

Wrong yet again. Every team in the NFL runs zone blocking some of the time. The Broncos, Baltimore, Atlanta and Texans use it as their primary but not exclusive run blocking scheme.

Runner
10-20-2005, 02:48 PM
and whoever the other line guy is cant remember his name

Marshall

Ibar_Harry
10-20-2005, 02:57 PM
2004 Jake Plummer 521 passing attempts 4089 yds--yet another good call by Ibar.



Duh!!! That is exactly what many people have been telling you when you keep bringing up this drivel about zone blocking and the pass protection--they aren't related.



Wrong yet again. Every team in the NFL runs zone blocking some of the time. The Broncos, Baltimore, Atlanta and Texans use it as their primary but not exclusive run blocking scheme.

Yes and DUH Carr's sack total starting going through the roof again in year 3 and look at what's happening in year 4. DD had real problems at the beginning of the year adjusting to the new scheme. Later on to his credit he began to do much better. You can say what you want but the primary offensive change between year 2 and where we are at now is the zone blocking scheme. Wade was brought in but that was for his run blocking skills. We have had essentially no change in our offensive team starting with year 3, but we did change the blocking scheme. That was the biggest single and perhaps only change. End result has been a disaster. WHY?

infantrycak
10-20-2005, 03:05 PM
That was the biggest single and perhaps only change. End result has been a disaster. WHY?

Yeah, the three new starters weren't a change, that couldn't be the why, along with the protections called by Palmer and shifting away from 3 step drops. Nope none of those are changes, none could be the why--must be the change in the run blocking. Hey Dunta joined the team in between 2003 and 2004--maybe that's what caused the change--same coincidence of timing and has just as much to do with the pass protection which is nada.

texan_fan
10-20-2005, 11:59 PM
...on the FOXSports.com list of the NFL's most overpaid players...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168

*1. Houston Texans Offensive Line
First, a little perspective on this unit. In Superman: The Movie, a teenage Clark Kent punted a football out of his high school stadium. If he played behind this line, it wouldn't matter how far he could kick the ball because he would lead the league in punts blocked. That's how inept this bunch has been since 2002 just ask quarterback David Carr.

In 2004, the Texans had the third-highest total payroll in the NFL ($97.5 million), and 19 percent of it was devoted to one of the worst offensive lines in football. Carr might have had more success stacking the $12 million between him and the defense and praying that the sight of free money would at least allow him to complete a five-step drop.

After not being able to lure Orlando Pace away from the Rams, the Texans settled on former Saints left tackle, Victor Riley. Left guard Chester Pitts is a penalty machine who led the league with 21 penalties in 2003 and then was tied for second with 14 penalties in 2004. Steve McKinney, Zach Wiegert, and Todd Wade round out a bunch that has given up 33 sacks through six games this season.

Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, or even Clark Kent won't make much of a difference in the running game as long as there is no one to block for them.*

AHEM...haven't we been saying this since DAY ONE?!?!?!?!

wrestler4life
10-21-2005, 12:03 AM
I think that this is the reason that Casserly should b fired, and soon!

supertankman
11-03-2005, 08:49 AM
Number one on the list is the Texans offensive Line!

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168?GT1=7409

Buffi2
11-03-2005, 08:53 AM
Number one on the list is the Texans offensive Line!

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168?GT1=7409

Well, that certainly sums up the entire situation in a nutshell. Sigh.:crying:

nflnutswife
11-03-2005, 03:35 PM
The NFL's most overpaid players
Story Tools: Print Email
Ryan Wilson / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 1 day ago

1. Houston Texans Offensive Line
First, a little perspective on this unit. In Superman: The Movie, a teenage Clark Kent punted a football out of his high school stadium. If he played behind this line, it wouldn't matter how far he could kick the ball because he would lead the league in punts blocked. That's how inept this bunch has been since 2002 just ask quarterback David Carr.

In 2004, the Texans had the third-highest total payroll in the NFL ($97.5 million), and 19 percent of it was devoted to one of the worst offensive lines in football. Carr might have had more success stacking the $12 million between him and the defense and praying that the sight of free money would at least allow him to complete a five-step drop.

After not being able to lure Orlando Pace away from the Rams, the Texans settled on former Saints left tackle, Victor Riley. Left guard Chester Pitts is a penalty machine who led the league with 21 penalties in 2003 and then was tied for second with 14 penalties in 2004. Steve McKinney, Zach Wiegert, and Todd Wade round out a bunch that has given up 33 sacks through six games this season.

Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, or even Clark Kent won't make much of a difference in the running game as long as there is no one to block for them.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168?GT1=7409