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View Full Version : How much blame goes to Carr?


blockhead83
10-08-2005, 02:03 PM
There's a few interesting articles on NFL.com today discussing Carr. This one (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8920408) is examining the failures of Carr and Harrington. The writer, Seth Polansky, seems to think the problem with David Carr is the Houston Texans, and the problem with the Detroit Lions is Joey Harrington. In other words, Carr is a good player damned to a bad team, and Joey Harrington is a bad quarterback weighing down a potentially good team. I think there's some truth to that, but I'm not sure Carr would turn the Lions into instant contenders.

He also dogs our coaching staff for not opting to go deep more often and I tend to agree with him. The formula for beating our offense seems to rely on sending alot of pressure, breaking down our almost non-existent pressure and forcing Carr to either take a sack or make a poor decision. We seem to be letting the defense dictate our playcalling by opting to run short routes that we think we can get off before the blitz gets Carr. If they're sending these blitzes, aside of AJ our other receivers should be enjoying single coverage, why don't we test this coverage more often? I think Gaffney and Armstrong are two guys who can beat man coverage downfield, maybe not with speed, but with positioning and by outfighting the DB for the ball. I'm not sure if our coaches just don't believe in going for the big play on occasion, or if our receivers just can't get open. Hell, just throw it deep towards AJ, even if he IS in double coverage, we've all seen that work last season at KC. I think if Carr had his way he'd be looking deep alot more often.

Alot of members of this board believe Carr can't amount to much more than a game-managing quarterback. Someone to play a role ala Trent Dilfer for the SB winning Ravens a few years back. If Carr was plugged into a system like Indi, Oakland, Baltimore, or even the Lions, would he still be a game-managing quarterback, or do you think he'd be posting pro-bowl numbers? He definitely lacks the pocket presence of a pro-bowl passer, but maybe it's because he hasn't had enough practice when he actually has a pocket to step into. I think Carr definitely exacerbates our poor production by not being very good at evading the rush, but I also think good protection against the rush would be all the catalyst we'd need to have a potentially top 10 offense. Since we're probably not going to see much better protection until next year (or later), we may as well try and make the other team pay for blitzing by hurting them deep in the pass game. It makes it much easier for us to get blown out, but a L is a L and what we're doing now obviously isn't working. The Titans are weaker in the secondary right now, so this would be a great week to try some deep passes......

CajunTexan
10-08-2005, 05:46 PM
The cat in this article hits the nail on the head. Joe is not as bad as they make him out to be, but look at what he has been given to work with as compared to starting your rookie season on an expansion team.

I would love to see Carr and his abilities in a established system.

Listen...everyone give this a thought. Mathis is healthy. The offense looked light years ahead of the previous week. Gaffney made plays. Runnign game showed signs of life. Man, I am seeing signs men and ladies. I just feel like it is going to break open. Why not this weekend vs. the Titans!? I'm telling you, I feel it, the O is about to bring it!!!! :texflag: :texans: :homer:

edo783
10-08-2005, 09:19 PM
The cat in this article hits the nail on the head. Joe is not as bad as they make him out to be, but look at what he has been given to work with as compared to starting your rookie season on an expansion team.

I would love to see Carr and his abilities in a established system.

Listen...everyone give this a thought. Mathis is healthy. The offense looked light years ahead of the previous week. Gaffney made plays. Runnign game showed signs of life. Man, I am seeing signs men and ladies. I just feel like it is going to break open. Why not this weekend vs. the Titans!? I'm telling you, I feel it, the O is about to bring it!!!! :texflag: :texans: :homer:

I LOVE the positive tilt. AJ said in another post that we MAY have to realize that the 7-9 of last year is the best this team can do. Might be the case until we get an NFL quality o-line, but I look for additional improvement in this weeks play (might even win) and to continue for a couple of weeks. At that point, we should have some sort of bead on what we really have for a team. I DOUBT we are the worst team in the league, but there are probably only 4-6 teams that I would expect to see worse than us.

texan279
10-08-2005, 09:22 PM
If Carr was plugged into a system like Indi, Oakland, Baltimore, or even the Lions, would he still be a game-managing quarterback, or do you think he'd be posting pro-bowl numbers?

If he worked on his decision making and a few other minor things, put him in Indy, Oakland, or maybe even Detroit, definitely Pro Bowl numbers.

blockhead83
10-08-2005, 10:35 PM
If he worked on his decision making and a few other minor things, put him in Indy, Oakland, or maybe even Detroit, definitely Pro Bowl numbers.

I agree, and I think the major differences between our team and the afore mentioned teams is: 1. Coaching, ie. philosophy, game plan etc. 2. Offensive Line play.
Carr has a good arm, our receivers can make plays, and DD is good enough to get the job done for us. The big problem is that our offensive line has to perform for any of the other pieces of the puzzle to succeed. At this point I'm not sure if it's coaching or a lack of talent that's caused them to play so poorly. I'm leaning more towards coaching at this point to be honest. You look around the league at teams like the Chargers last year, the Patriots seemingly every year, or even the Bengals last week and you see teams plugging nobodies into their line and managing to provide great protection and running lanes. We're paying the members of our line good starter's salaries, I'm assuming they're talented enough to be starters on most of the other teams in the league, yet they consistently perform worse than any other team's OL. Chester Pitts gets paid as a top 5 LG, Wade signed a large contract with us as well as Weigert. Where's the production? There's something wrong with that equation and I think the fault lies with the coaching and our offensive scheme.

Goldeagle
11-24-2005, 10:31 PM
Carr needs to learn the game over again, because of the pathetic drafting and ability to protect him. Also he has had more dropped passes than anyone in the NFL.

Get an O-Line, get a more productive coaching scheme and then we can blame Carr. As of right now, I blame the O-line, the horrible hands by the Wrs and the coaching staff.

WWJD
11-24-2005, 11:49 PM
Unless I missed something I noticed Harrington got pulled today. I don't know if he got hurt or not. I don't see any reason why if David is not playing well at this point why they don't put in Ragone or Banks....Garcia seems lost but at least they tried something different.

HJam72
11-25-2005, 01:47 AM
Carr needs to learn the game over again, because of the pathetic drafting and ability to protect him. Also he has had more dropped passes than anyone in the NFL.

Get an O-Line, get a more productive coaching scheme and then we can blame Carr. As of right now, I blame the O-line, the horrible hands by the Wrs and the coaching staff.

Exactly, totally, completely 100% correct. Oh, and throw in Casserly for a little blame too. :ok:

Nighthawk
11-25-2005, 03:43 AM
If he worked on his decision making and a few other minor things, put him in Indy, Oakland, or maybe even Detroit, definitely Pro Bowl numbers.

Yeah, decision making and a few other minor things, that'd do it. Straight to the Pro Bowl. Haircut. Beard. Brain transplant. Whatever.

GP
11-25-2005, 11:47 AM
I see a lot of people touting Carr as being a good passer on the run when he's rolling out.

I don't see that.

I see a guy throwing it in the dirt, or throwing it behind or in front of a lot of open receivers when he rolls out and throws on the run.

Not hating on Carr. Just a little perplexed this season.

Kaiser Toro
11-25-2005, 11:57 AM
I see a lot of people touting Carr as being a good passer on the run when he's rolling out.

I don't see that.

I see a guy throwing it in the dirt, or throwing it behind or in front of a lot of open receivers when he rolls out and throws on the run.

Not hating on Carr. Just a little perplexed this season.

Throwing on the run has not been one if his strongest suits.

Vinny
11-25-2005, 11:58 AM
Throwing on the run has not been one if his strongest suits....and that is the strength in his game....he has proven to be miserable in the pocket. The coaches try to get him out on waggles and bootlegs...but you can only run that so much before NFL defenses catch up and scheme for it.

Ryan
11-25-2005, 12:02 PM
We need to trade him to the bears who are in need of a QB for some defense like Brian Urlacher.

thegr8fan
11-25-2005, 01:03 PM
Carr is Jeff George Jr.

Cannon of an arm and a pea for a brain. When it comes to playing professional football the one thing no one can determine ahead of time is a players ability to adjust to the speed of the NFL, for a QB, that includes decision making. Carr is quite simply too slow mentally to be a great QB in the NFL. It is as simple as that. The things that require brains, reading defenses, making decisions, changing plays at the line, all of these things Carr is quite simply on a NFL mental level of an *****.

would Carr be able to go somewhere else and do better, maybe. But would he become a superstar, like Steve Young, well he has a slim chance. Something along the lines of a snowballs chance in you know where of it happening, IMHO.

Honch Delgado
11-25-2005, 01:55 PM
Carr is Jeff George Jr.

Cannon of an arm and a pea for a brain. When it comes to playing professional football the one thing no one can determine ahead of time is a players ability to adjust to the speed of the NFL, for a QB, that includes decision making. Carr is quite simply too slow mentally to be a great QB in the NFL. It is as simple as that. The things that require brains, reading defenses, making decisions, changing plays at the line, all of these things Carr is quite simply on a NFL mental level of an *****.

would Carr be able to go somewhere else and do better, maybe. But would he become a superstar, like Steve Young, well he has a slim chance. Something along the lines of a snowballs chance in you know where of it happening, IMHO.

I'd say he's more along the lines of a Trent Dilfer. He can manage a game and not throw interceptions but he needs everything around him to be perfect in order to succeed. One of the reasons Carr isn't taking as much heat as Harrington is he doesn't commit many turnovers, which is kind of hard to do when all you throw is 5 yard dumps. I haven't seen anything indicating he's franchise material in the NFL. He's been signifcantly outplayed by opposing QBs this season (except for Dilfer) and much of last season. A better indicator of Carr's skills would be to hand over the riegns to Banks or Ragone for a stretch of games and see how they do, the seasons over anyway.

Double Barrel
11-25-2005, 01:56 PM
The problem with Carr is that his decision making process has been forced into hyperspeed. If he doesn't make a choice within 2-3 seconds, he's going to either get sacked or bring the ball down and start running.

Every QB in the NFL has 2-3 seconds to make decisions. That's the nature of the game. The great QBs make good decisions, and the average / mediocre QBs make bad decisions.

Carr had protection last game against the Chiefs. I specifically focussed on the o-line the entire game, and Carr hardly ever stepped into the pocket as it was behind pushed behind him. He checked off his no. 1, looked for the dump, and then ran (often right into a sack). Bad decisions.

Then watch other QBs in the league. They step into the pocket, hold on to the ball until the last possible moment, pass and often get slammed just a micro-second after release. How many times have we seen QBs getting off the ground after making spectacular passes? ALL THE TIME.

For whatever reason(s), Carr's decision making is geared towards simplicity and escaping pressure. Perhaps he forgot what a pocket was all about from his first three seasons of beatdowns, or has flight tendencies as a result. Whatever the case, he's not making consistently great decisions out there.

jacquescas
11-25-2005, 02:00 PM
The Carr situation is as such. He is more to blame than many people like to say because no one wants to start over. But his upside if he had a decent offense around him is still pretty good. Thus trying to fix the peices around him is more prudent. If then he can't figure it out, its easier to plug in a new QB (like carolina when Delhomme got there)

If we bring in Culpepper, Linart, Young, or any other "vetran qb" thats money and picks that are not helping the anemic offense

Vinny
11-25-2005, 02:46 PM
Carr had protection last game...hehehahah. You are right, he did have protection, as long as he got rid of the ball within the 1.5 seconds allowed. he has a choice to throw the hitch and did it. The disturbing thing is that he had time to find other options since there were more targets in the pattern but the defense gave the hitch...and Carr kept taking it. That's not smart quarterbacking.

Double Barrel
11-25-2005, 03:06 PM
Carr had protection last game...hehehahah. You are right, he did have protection, as long as he got rid of the ball within the 1.5 seconds allowed. A lot of people think, "Wow...only one sack. That's amazing." Please...it's real easy when the ball is out of the QBs hand after a second, and the o-line didn't have to block anymore. Heck...I could block for 1.5 seconds, or at least have them trip over me and slow them down enough before they hit Carr.

That 2-3 seconds I said Carr had to make a decision was a little over-exaggerated.

He had a lot longer than 1.5 seconds in the pocket last game. Watch the tape with a stopwatch and you'll see it's quite evident. You are speaking out of your assumption instead of verifying facts.

I doubt you could block for a second in the NFL. Those D-linemen would eat your lunch after smashing you to the ground. Get real.

thegr8fan
11-25-2005, 03:36 PM
Carr choose to pass so quickly, not because he had pressure on him. Carr has had plenty of protection this year, and even last year. He doesn't use the protection afforded him. I sometimes wonder if Carr even knows what a lineman blocking around his back means.

Carr is to blame for those quick passes and it wasn't due to being sacked or even in the imminent threat of being sacked, he just decided to do it, all by himself. Another poor decision or poor defensive read by Carr, IMHO.

Double Barrel
11-25-2005, 04:19 PM
Apparently you didn't watch the game. Because I saw the analyts put up their own stopwatch during periods of the game, and he rarely held it for longer than 1.5 seconds. I didn't need my own stopwatch...I was provided for one.

And by the way...I can block. At least I could probably block better than most people on that line. Heck, all I would have to do is have them trip over me, I'd be considered an all-star on the Texans. Just give me McKinney's jersey and you won't be able to tell the difference.

*squawk*it's the offensive line*squawk* :ok:

What the heck is an "analyts" anyway? idonno: I looked it up on dictionary.com, and they didn't know, either. I need to know what you're talking about before we can have a good discussion.

Anyway, in your mind, you're right. So no point in arguing with you, regardless if I was at the game and have watched game film, because fortunately, we've got you to enlighten us with the truth. (which, according to you, Carr bears no responsibility and it's all the o-line)

BTW, what college did you play offensive line for? I'm just curious since you "think" you could be an all-star lineman.

Jags&Dawgs
11-25-2005, 05:15 PM
Can't blame Carr if he don't have the O-line to protect him.

eclem5
01-26-2006, 04:27 PM
There's a few interesting articles on NFL.com today discussing Carr. This one (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8920408) is examining the failures of Carr and Harrington. The writer, Seth Polansky, seems to think the problem with David Carr is the Houston Texans, and the problem with the Detroit Lions is Joey Harrington. In other words, Carr is a good player damned to a bad team, and Joey Harrington is a bad quarterback weighing down a potentially good team. I think there's some truth to that, but I'm not sure Carr would turn the Lions into instant contenders.

He also dogs our coaching staff for not opting to go deep more often and I tend to agree with him. The formula for beating our offense seems to rely on sending alot of pressure, breaking down our almost non-existent pressure and forcing Carr to either take a sack or make a poor decision. We seem to be letting the defense dictate our playcalling by opting to run short routes that we think we can get off before the blitz gets Carr. If they're sending these blitzes, aside of AJ our other receivers should be enjoying single coverage, why don't we test this coverage more often? I think Gaffney and Armstrong are two guys who can beat man coverage downfield, maybe not with speed, but with positioning and by outfighting the DB for the ball. I'm not sure if our coaches just don't believe in going for the big play on occasion, or if our receivers just can't get open. Hell, just throw it deep towards AJ, even if he IS in double coverage, we've all seen that work last season at KC. I think if Carr had his way he'd be looking deep alot more often.

Alot of members of this board believe Carr can't amount to much more than a game-managing quarterback. Someone to play a role ala Trent Dilfer for the SB winning Ravens a few years back. If Carr was plugged into a system like Indi, Oakland, Baltimore, or even the Lions, would he still be a game-managing quarterback, or do you think he'd be posting pro-bowl numbers? He definitely lacks the pocket presence of a pro-bowl passer, but maybe it's because he hasn't had enough practice when he actually has a pocket to step into. I think Carr definitely exacerbates our poor production by not being very good at evading the rush, but I also think good protection against the rush would be all the catalyst we'd need to have a potentially top 10 offense. Since we're probably not going to see much better protection until next year (or later), we may as well try and make the other team pay for blitzing by hurting them deep in the pass game. It makes it much easier for us to get blown out, but a L is a L and what we're doing now obviously isn't working. The Titans are weaker in the secondary right now, so this would be a great week to try some deep passes......

Carr is really not the person to blame, i think he's a good QB, but is not better that Vince
Carr is shell shocked. The Poor offensive line is to blame, a mobile QB would make them look a little better because a mobile QB can make plays 2-3 times a game when nothings there