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the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 05:41 AM
Why are players regressing from potential Pro Bowlers calibur to average/below-average and will the damage be too bad to fix?

Carr, Dre, Dunta, Domanick and Babin all have shown potential in the past couple of seasons. Peek was a game-changer last season and now can't even get close to the QB.

Huge
10-07-2005, 05:54 AM
There's no question Carr has regressed. For whatever reason (OL, his actual abilities, etc.), it's pretty obvious.

Babin is going thru an injury. Jury is still out on a second year player.

Andre Johnson's struggles can be attributed to Carr's struggles.

Peek was a "game changer" last year? With just 2 sacks on the season, I'd say that's a stretch to label him that.

Davis is averaging 3.9 per carry this season. That's just .2 ypc under his career average.

I don't see where Dunta has regressed at all. He doesn't have the numbers he had last year but that has more to do with teams not throwing to his side of the field.


It can be fixed but it'll take time. Something I don't think many are willing to afford.

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 06:05 AM
There's no question Carr has regressed. For whatever reason (OL, his actual abilities, etc.), it's pretty obvious.

Babin is going thru an injury. Jury is still out on a second year player.

Andre Johnson's struggles can be attributed to Carr's struggles.

Peek was a "game changer" last year? With just 2 sacks on the season, I'd say that's a stretch to label him that.

Davis is averaging 3.9 per carry this season. That's just .2 ypc under his career average.

I don't see where Dunta has regressed at all. He doesn't have the numbers he had last year but that has more to do with teams not throwing to his side of the field.


It can be fixed but it'll take time. Something I don't think many are willing to afford.

Agreed on Carr. He showed a few flashes last week but went back to his old self in the 4th quarter.

Babin had a groin injury in camp and now it's a shoulder. Hopefully his feelings hurt more than his injuries.

Davis has shown a few flashes also, but he doesn't look as explosive this year.

Dunta gave up quite a few plays to the Bengal's #2 receiver last week. It is hard to cover a guy for 10-15 seconds, but that's what he has to do if he wants to be considered a Pro Bowl calibur corner.

Bottom-line is that these players should be league leaders at their positions and considered some of the best players in the NFL.

William.carter
10-07-2005, 06:07 AM
Carr maybe, but he knows the pressure is on this year more than ever.

Babin's injury isn't as bad as they are playing it up to be. I'm begining to think he has no heart and isn't taking being benched like a man. Flame me for that comment if you want, but that's how I see it.

Dre, well as someone from another post or article said, if a 4 man rush will put Carr on his backside or out of bounds, 7 men in coverage is more than enough to give even a pro bowler like Andre a tough time getting open. It's like many coaches and OCs have said in the past. Offenses take what the defenses give them, right now, no one is giving us Andre, and why should they?

Peek needs time to settle into being an every down player and the coackes need to turn him and Orr/Anderson loose to create havoc wherever they can. That's where they are most effective. Last year the coaches would say "get in there and make something happen". Now they have him operating in a get in there and don't give up a big play mode. It's mitigates the agressiveness of a naturally aggressive player.

Davis is doing fine running behind a line that doesn't play to their individual strengths.

Dunta is under producing, he isn't being picked on because teams know what he's capable of and they don't want to risk it. McClain was commenting on how he didn't do a stellar job against Cinci, but the only time TJ Housh... get decent yardage or openings was on zone type coverage rather than man. That's the result of good route running and a solid QB, not a poor corner.

Honoring Earl 34
10-07-2005, 06:25 AM
:texflag: I wonder if the Texans are buying time with Babin until they decide what to do with him . I sure hope he's not Mamula Lite .

infantrycak
10-07-2005, 06:28 AM
Babin's injury isn't as bad as they are playing it up to be. I'm begining to think he has no heart and isn't taking being benched like a man. Flame me for that comment if you want, but that's how I see it.

Do you have some kind of inside information on this? If not, you are the one flaming Babin without any cause. Casserly on 610 am this morning said Babin injured his shoulder in practice against the Raiders. He tried to play through it but the coaches noted in reviewing game film that he was playing with only one shoulder. They are hoping to avoid surgery during the season and to get him back in a couple of weeks but it sounded like off-season surgery is more likely than not. Call that a flame or just disagreement--I don't see the reason to question Babin taking it like a man.

Huge
10-07-2005, 06:39 AM
Dunta gave up quite a few plays to the Bengal's #2 receiver last week. It is hard to cover a guy for 10-15 seconds, but that's what he has to do if he wants to be considered a Pro Bowl calibur corner.
Can you name the Pro Bowl caliber CBs that are covering the better WRs (Houshmandzadeh is considered to be one of the better WRs in the league) for any length of time and having success?

Bottom-line is that these players should be league leaders at their positions and considered some of the best players in the NFL.
So Davis and Johnson should be league leaders at their positions?

Here are the top 5 leading rushers in the league and the leading WR on their respective teams:

1. S. Alexander 455 yards, Bobby Engram 316 yards (16th in the league)
2. L. Tomlinson SD 450 yards, Antonio Gates 280 yards (22nd in the league)
3. C. Williams TB 447 yards, Joey Galloway 316 yards (16th in the league)
4. E. James IND 414 yards, Marvin Harrison 267 yards (24th in the league)
5. W. Dunn ATL 394 yards, Michael Jenkins 162 yards (outside the top 30)

Is a picture forming yet? It's a pretty difficult thing to have a leading rusher as well as a leading receiver.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least one of them to be in the top 10 but when your offense is struggling then everybody is going to be affected.

It's also a difficult thing to have some of the best players in the NFL at a majority of the positions on one team. If you looked around at the better teams of the league, can they boast this claim?

William.carter
10-07-2005, 06:47 AM
Do you have some kind of inside information on this? If not, you are the one flaming Babin without any cause. Casserly on 610 am this morning said Babin injured his shoulder in practice against the Raiders. He tried to play through it but the coaches noted in reviewing game film that he was playing with only one shoulder. They are hoping to avoid surgery during the season and to get him back in a couple of weeks but it sounded like off-season surgery is more likely than not. Call that a flame or just disagreement--I don't see the reason to question Babin taking it like a man.

I respect your opinion and what Casserly said, but his attitude about being "benched" and the timing of the announcement of his injury is just too convenient for me. I mean, no one wants to be benched, but he just had that head hung low, i'm taking my toys and going home look about him during the press conference, and then suddenly, he's got this shoulder injury. And every indication from the coaches and FO was that he was benched for lack of productions, not due to an injury. I hope I'm wrong, but that's just a feeling I'm getting. I'll researve further comments or apologies until the story completely unfolds or he returns to the field.

Runner
10-07-2005, 06:48 AM
Do you have some kind of inside information on this? If not, you are the one flaming Babin without any cause. Casserly on 610 am this morning said Babin injured his shoulder in practice against the Raiders. He tried to play through it but the coaches noted in reviewing game film that he was playing with only one shoulder. They are hoping to avoid surgery during the season and to get him back in a couple of weeks but it sounded like off-season surgery is more likely than not. Call that a flame or just disagreement--I don't see the reason to question Babin taking it like a man.

He is flaming Babin without cause. He has a type of injury that, if not common, is at least not infrequent with lineman on both sides of the ball. It is one that can be played through by some, but it does take away some power. The magnitude of the tear and the type of player you are determine how it effects a player. I think it has negatively effected his play.

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 06:50 AM
Huge, is it too much to ask to have one player that is considered for the Pro Bowl. The Texans do not have a single one.

And have any of the Texans players gotten better this season? If so, please name them.

SESupergenius
10-07-2005, 06:53 AM
It was obvious from watching him, ( and trust me I do watch him pretty good) that there was something wrong with his game. If you want to claim it's him and his skills that's one thing, but from what I saw he wasn't the same guy last as last year. I commend him for going out and trying to play through his injury. I also commend the coaches for benching him because he can't perform up to his level.

William.carter
10-07-2005, 06:56 AM
It was obvious from watching him, ( and trust me I do watch him pretty good) that there was something wrong with his game. If you want to claim it's him and his skills that's one thing, but from what I saw he wasn't the same guy last as last year. I commend him for going out and trying to play through his injury. I also commend the coaches for benching him because he can't perform up to his level.


Ok, I have to agree that attempting to play injured is a definite show of heart, so I apologize for being so harsh on Babin. But something still doesn't smell right about all this. I just get the feeling there is more to the story.

infantrycak
10-07-2005, 07:01 AM
He is flaming Babin without cause.

Actually William is being earnest I think although we disagree. I personally have had a shoulder injury from a skiing accident 13 years ago. The docs said there was as much chance of doing more damage as there was of fixing things, plus I didn't have an NFL contract on the line so the injury is just there. In some directions and ranges of motion I am perfectly fine--for example drawing a bow. In others I can only complete the motion with a loss of strength and/or with pain--for example throwing a football. Interestingly, I met a guy with a similar injury who could do exactly the opposite--could throw a football just fine still but couldn't draw a bow any more. I can easily see how a shoulder injury could dramatically affect an OLB's performance.

Huge
10-07-2005, 07:07 AM
"Considered" for the Pro Bowl? Andre Johnson was in the Pro Bowl last season. Most (even those outside the city of Houston) thought Dunta Robinson should've been.

If you're saying they're not being considered for the Pro Bowl after 4 weeks, I really don't know what to tell you.

As for getting them in the Pro Bowl, who are they going to replace?

AFC QBs:
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Steve McNair

Good luck to Carr cracking that line-up when only 3 can go.

AFC RBs:
Ladanian Tomlinson
Jamal Lewis
Edgerrin James
Willis McGahee
Rudi Johnson
Priest Holmes
Corey Dillon

Only 3 go...good luck Domanick.

AFC WRs:
Randy Moss
Chad Johnson
Marvin Harrison
Hines Ward

Andre's chances of returning are probably hurt by Moss coming over from the NFC. But that's just a hunch.

Not making the Pro Bowl is not a slap in the face for a player from the AFC. There's a ton of talent at every position in this conference right now.

As for determining which players have(n't) improved, what's the point in judging them for the 4 weeks in which they've struggled. How 'bout waiting 'till the end of the season to see how they do?

nunusguy
10-07-2005, 07:21 AM
It oughta be a crime to ignore and thereby waste a football resource like AJ !
When I think of some of the spectacular plays he was making last year, being so instrumental in contributing to winning or nearly winning games like vs. the Vikings & Chiefs, it makes one cringe to consider his almost lack of involvement in the offense, if you can call it an offense.

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 07:25 AM
As for determining which players have(n't) improved, what's the point in judging them for the 4 weeks in which they've struggled. How 'bout waiting 'till the end of the season to see how they do?

So right now, week 5, do you see any improvement in these players?

Runner
10-07-2005, 07:26 AM
It oughta be a crime to ignore and thereby waste a football resource like AJ !
When I think of some of the spectacular plays he was making last year, being so instrumental in contributing to winning or nearly winning games like vs. the Vikings & Chiefs, it makes one cringe to consider his almost lack of involvement in the offense, if you can call it an offense.

Part of the conservative offense is that Carr is not "allowed" to throw ito a covered receiver and count on the receiver making the play. Other big time receivers get these chances. It's rolling the dice; sometimes you get the play, other times you get an interception. With the heat Carr is taking right now, a couple of interceptions due to his forcing the ball to Andre (in hindsight of course) would be brutal.

The Texans need some big plays though; they need to take this kind of calculated risk just to fire up the team.

infantrycak
10-07-2005, 07:29 AM
Part of the conservative offense is that Carr is not "allowed" to throw ito a covered receiver and count on the receiver making the play.

There was a Carr sound-bite on 610 am this morning. It was basically Carr saying to win they needed to take shots down field and let AJ have the chance to make the play. More importantly he said he had talked to Capers this week about exactly that. All is not in agreement on this O still.

Huge
10-07-2005, 07:32 AM
So right now, week 5, do you see any improvement in these players?
It's week 5 but they've only played 3 games (in which they've undoutedly stuggled).

So again, what's the point of judging their improvement in 3 games while adjusting to a new offensive coordinator?

Look at Drew Bledsoe's numbers after 4 games. Do you think he's going to maintain that level of play over the course of an entire season? I wouldn't bet on it. Just as I wouldn't bet on the Texans' maintaining their level of current play.

Runner
10-07-2005, 07:33 AM
There was a Carr sound-bite on 610 am this morning. It was basically Carr saying to win they needed to take shots down field and let AJ have the chance to make the play. More importantly he said he had talked to Capers this week about exactly that. All is not in agreement on this O still.

Hopefully this signals a change that they'll try a (limited) number of these throws. They don't want to play with fire too often.

So we'll ended up with a play that either fires the team up or demoralizes it further. The board should be happy we can "I told you so" or "dam the call" in hindsight!

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 07:36 AM
It's week 5 but they've only played 3 games (in which they've undoutedly stuggled).

So again, what's the point of judging their improvement in 3 games while adjusting to a new offensive coordinator?

Look at Drew Bledsoe's numbers after 4 games. Do you think he's going to maintain that level of play over the course of an entire season? I wouldn't bet on it. Just as I wouldn't bet on the Texans' maintaining their level of current play.

Is that a no?

HardKnockTexan
10-07-2005, 07:38 AM
Huge, is it too much to ask to have one player that is considered for the Pro Bowl. The Texans do not have a single one.

And have any of the Texans players gotten better this season? If so, please name them.

Robaire Smith is the only one that comes to mind. He seems to be getting a much better push off the line and will soon require consistant double teaming... atleast I hope so.

SESupergenius
10-07-2005, 09:14 AM
There was a Carr sound-bite on 610 am this morning. It was basically Carr saying to win they needed to take shots down field and let AJ have the chance to make the play. More importantly he said he had talked to Capers this week about exactly that. All is not in agreement on this O still.Why is Carr not talking to Pendy about it????

infantrycak
10-07-2005, 10:01 AM
Why is Carr not talking to Pendy about it????

Well, when mom told you no, I'll bet you tried to go behind her back and ask dad. I wonder if some of that is going on here?--appeal to a higher/different authority.

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:26 AM
Texans quarterback David Carr, whose team was expected to make great strides in the AFC South this year after a franchise-best seven wins a year ago, knows his squad has to improve quickly if it wants to get back into the AFC South race. The Texans have already made one major change, dismissing offensive coordinator Chris Palmer last week and promoting offensive line coach Joe Pendry to that position.

I dont think it is a must win, but I think it is a must play well, said Carr, whose team showed improvement in a 16-10 loss at Cincinnati last week. I think our guys have to go out with confidence and play the way I know that we can play. Play the way that we did last week for the most part barring a few plays we just didnt make the plays that I wish we could take back. Other than that, I think that if our guys go out and do what were supposed to do, the rest will take care of itself.


this quote was on the titans board
http://forums.titansonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11305

sometimes I hate this Political Correctness stuff. IMO.. If there is a must win situation.. it is now.. I guess what bugs me is the way we are saying.. "we just want to play well " Heck I want a "W"

Porky
10-07-2005, 10:40 AM
This team from top to bottom has such a loser's mentatlity, it's enough to make me puke. It all starts at the HC position for the players. Four years of Capers philosphy, and you can see how his whole mindset has filtered down to the players. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

tsip
10-07-2005, 10:43 AM
This team from top to bottom has such a loser's mentatlity, it's enough to make me puke. It all starts at the HC position for the players. Four years of Capers philosphy, and you can see how his whole mindset has filtered down to the players. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

very good points!

touttail
10-07-2005, 10:49 AM
Part of the conservative offense is that Carr is not "allowed" to throw ito a covered receiver and count on the receiver making the play. Other big time receivers get these chances. It's rolling the dice; sometimes you get the play, other times you get an interception. With the heat Carr is taking right now, a couple of interceptions due to his forcing the ball to Andre (in hindsight of course) would be brutal.

The Texans need some big plays though; they need to take this kind of calculated risk just to fire up the team.

Hell, what's Carr supposed to do, I saw on TV, Roger Clements and Andy Petit sack Carr. Even called him "pretty boy"!

bobby 119C

Doug
10-07-2005, 11:54 AM
Hell, what's Carr supposed to do, I saw on TV, Roger Clements and Andy Petit sack Carr. Even called him "pretty boy"!

bobby 119C
That was funny right there, I don't care who ya are!!!

wrestler4life
10-07-2005, 12:14 PM
There was a Carr sound-bite on 610 am this morning. It was basically Carr saying to win they needed to take shots down field and let AJ have the chance to make the play. More importantly he said he had talked to Capers this week about exactly that. All is not in agreement on this O still.

So now he is trying to ruin the next offensive coordinator and do things behind his back as well? It seems like Carr and the coaches need to go behind closed doors and duke it out. Whoever comes out on top has the say, and there should be no more second guessing calls or decisions.

the wonger need food
10-08-2005, 08:47 AM
I dont think it is a must win, but I think it is a must play well, - Carr

What?!?!? I just cannot believe how low the expectations have been lowered this season. From a team that was supposed to compete to a team that is happy with playing well (aka 250 total yards, 7 sacks and 10 points).

Who is instilling this loser mentality into these guys?

CajunTexan
10-08-2005, 05:29 PM
By week 16 what I am thinking is this "regression" of everyone on this team, will be seen as a "slow start."

Bottle-O-Bud
10-08-2005, 05:39 PM
Agreed on Carr. He showed a few flashes last week but went back to his old self in the 4th quarter.


okay the ref screwed us, but can you blame Carr. The guy has been shell shocked and then some. Everything was going right until Wade let his man loose who got to carr and cause the nonfumble, but was called a fumble by the ref...

there is no more trust between Carr and the line. The coaches are not even sure anymore. Pointing fingers and attributing sack count left and right.

William.carter
10-11-2005, 01:05 PM
Every indication from the coaches and FO was that he was benched for lack of productions, not due to an injury. I hope I'm wrong, but that's just a feeling I'm getting. I'll researve further comments or apologies until the story completely unfolds or he returns to the field.


Being a man of my word, I retract my previous opinion of Jason Babin's performance. He was playing injured for what sounds like the season as it stands so far and that is a serious show of heart. I hope he bounces back from this injury quickly.