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Wolf
10-05-2005, 06:43 PM
its time to bench David Carr.

Not to punish the young fireballer for whats gone down thus far, but because we have to know. We have to know just who, exactly, is responsible for the NFLs most anemic offense. Right now, no one seems to have a clue. Talk to 12 different people and theyll give you 12 different answers. The offensive line is porous; the playcalling is too predictable; the routes are too long; the routes are too short; the receivers too incompetent. And yes, more than a few think David Carr is simply no good. Chris Palmer obviously had no answers. Hes now unemployed. Charley Casserly has been quoted as having no idea, and isnt that refreshing? Dom Capers continues to scribble notes during games and as much as wed love to believe hes writing down acute observations and groundbreaking solutions, my suspicion is that hes either updating his rsum or doing mathematical equations to try and figure out the significance of Hurleys lottery numbers on Lost.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/slant/slant60.html


Ric makes a lot of sense.. They have to know at the end of this year if Carr is the man or not or the franchise possibly be in salary cap hades for paying a guy that isn't getting it done. Well done article IMO

beerlover
10-05-2005, 07:00 PM
I would love to see Ric Sweeney or any forum member for that matter to put themselves in David Carr's shoes and see how well they would respond with 250-300 pounders barreling just as hard and fast as they can to squish the beer guts out of you from all directions :sumo:

If anyone is benched its Riley, then Wade then take your pick of the rest of the offensive line :brickwall

CajunTexan
10-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Good article, good post. I too am pulling for Carr. Sitting him may be the only way to see, but it would be hard to justify right now as Carrs numbers have improved with each game and his "game presence" was much better this week. Now, if he has a bad half or game anywhere down the line, it should be an easy call.

It would also be very tough on Banks or "little Dave," who get very few reps in practise, to be thown into this fray. :texflag:

Vinny
10-05-2005, 07:02 PM
I would love to see Ric Sweeney or any forum member for that matter to put themselves in David Carr's shoes and see how well they would respond with 250-300 pounders barreling just as hard and fast as they can to squish the beer guts out of you from all directions :sumo:

If anyone is benched its Riley, then Wade then take your pick of the rest of the offensive line :brickwallIf you read the article he is suggesting a way to show the football world that it may not be David Carr...but the team that is problematic.

lucky13
10-05-2005, 08:00 PM
I would love to see Ric Sweeney or any forum member for that matter to put themselves in David Carr's shoes and see how well they would respond with 250-300 pounders barreling just as hard and fast as they can to squish the beer guts out of you from all directions :sumo:

If anyone is benched its Riley, then Wade then take your pick of the rest of the offensive line :brickwall

i'd happily go in his shoes for what he is being paid to do so. i'd play every snap.

Elite
10-05-2005, 08:04 PM
I would love to see Ric Sweeney or any forum member for that matter to put themselves in David Carr's shoes and see how well they would respond with 250-300 pounders barreling just as hard and fast as they can to squish the beer guts out of you from all directions :sumo:

If anyone is benched its Riley, then Wade then take your pick of the rest of the offensive line :brickwall



Hell ill do it i can show no leadership like david does i can throw 3 yards check down passes and most important i can say i aint going to cut my hair like he does :rofl:

Grid
10-05-2005, 08:04 PM
actually..

I respect Carr..I respect what he does, and I like the guy. but just because he has had it rough here in Houston, that doesnt mean that im willing to accept our terrible play.

If its Carr's fault..then he needs to go. It would really suck that we ruined such a talented young QB.. but im not going to sacrifice my team cause I feel bad about it.

Walking a mile in his shoes has nothing to do with the play of this team on Sundays.

WWJD
10-05-2005, 08:11 PM
David gets paid a ton of money.

He could walk away tomorrow and have enough money to never have to work a day of the rest of his life.

Feel sorry for him? Nope. If he can't do the job they pay him to do they need to get somebody else. And the same applies for all the other players and the coaches.

You either perform at a high level or you're eventually replaced.

beerlover
10-05-2005, 09:58 PM
i'd happily go in his shoes for what he is being paid to do so. i'd play every snap.

and I would love to see it :tv:

touttail
10-06-2005, 04:43 AM
Good article! I have said before that if Carr had some competetion he would be better. He was a shoe in for starting QB and no one to push him.

bobby 119C :texflag:

the wonger need food
10-06-2005, 05:47 AM
Good article! I have said before that if Carr had some competetion he would be better. He was a shoe in for starting QB and no one to push him.

I said the same thing throughout the offseason and was told that I was crazy. Doesn't sound like such a crazy idea now, does it?

chuckm
10-06-2005, 05:55 AM
i'd happily go in his shoes for what he is being paid to do so. i'd play every snap.


We've all had these thoughts like this or "I'd fight Mike Tyson for 10 mil" .... but in Carr's case he has to go in week after week and try to survive (and win if at all possible) .... maybe watching Tony Banks take a whipping for a few weeks might be a good idea .... only problem is that Banks will get hurt and we're worse off than we were ...

BREAZE
10-06-2005, 06:59 AM
The stategy was not to protect in the #1 investment. The result is damaged goods. Most teams would have benched Carr until adequate protection was brought in. Here we are in year 4 and we are nowhere close to adequate protection.

Carr still shows sneak peeks of what he was supposed to be when he has time for routes to develop. How long before he is damaged mentally/physically beyond repair and can't even convert on those rare occasions?

As history has shown, Capers would never consider benching a heathy Carr. With that said, I would not be surprised if Carr is benched soon either by injury or by a new coach.

Carr is dying right before our very eyes by the Casserly/Capers regime...

Vinny
10-06-2005, 07:01 AM
Carr brings a lot of this on himself. He makes our poor line look worse than it does. From what I understand he was responsible for 3 or 4 of last weeks 7 sacks.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
10-06-2005, 07:05 AM
Great post, we do need to see where all the problems lie in the O line, but we need to start with banks then ragone, a lot of people say start with ragone, but he has very little to no experience in the NFL, Europe leauge is totally different and he had a line that blocked for him with Berlin Thunder.

BREAZE
10-06-2005, 07:26 AM
Carr brings a lot of this on himself. He makes our poor line look worse than it does. From what I understand he was responsible for 3 or 4 of last weeks 7 sacks.

...a result of 3 years of zero protection...ie, damaged goods. :goodnight

Vinny
10-06-2005, 07:29 AM
Carr has flaws...he's had them for a while. They didn't just start this year...it's just that most of you guys blame his problems on others all the time.

Runner
10-06-2005, 07:30 AM
Great post, we do need to see where all the problems lie in the O line, but we need to start with banks then ragone, a lot of people say start with ragone, but he has very little to no experience in the NFL, Europe leauge is totally different and he had a line that blocked for him with Berlin Thunder.

I think Ragone should get some time just to answer the question - Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?

What do we risk if he is given a shot - that we lose a couple of games? That our offense can't move the ball consistently? We already have that.

Low risk, possible good reward - let him play.

rmartin65
10-06-2005, 07:33 AM
I think that the texans should stick with carr. take away that ONE game and his qb rating is in the 90's. he also has all 3 of the td's, 2 passing and 1 rushing.

Runner
10-06-2005, 07:35 AM
I think that the texans should stick with carr. take away that ONE game and his qb rating is in the 90's. he also has all 3 of the td's, 2 passing and 1 rushing.

I think Carr should keep playing too. I meant if a change is made, or a game is out of control - big loss or big win - Ragone should get some reps instead of Banks.

Kaiser Toro
10-06-2005, 07:39 AM
Leave Carr in there the whole year. We need to see what his value looks like to us and to other teams before we make a decision to pick up the option or have hime renegotiate. Our #1 off season player personell decison this year is what to do we do with David?

BREAZE
10-06-2005, 07:43 AM
Carr has flaws...he's had them for a while. They didn't just start this year...it's just that most of you guys blame his problems on others all the time.


Carr has been sack 160 times since his 1st snap, but I'm sure that is mostly on him. Lucky for Carr he has his legs. How many sacks would we be speaking of if he ran like Troy Aikman?

160 sacks in a little over 3 years and climbing fast. Yea, I say put Ragone in before Carr has no trade value at all...

humbleone
10-06-2005, 07:45 AM
Great post, we do need to see where all the problems lie in the O line, but we need to start with banks then ragone, a lot of people say start with ragone, but he has very little to no experience in the NFL, Europe leauge is totally different and he had a line that blocked for him with Berlin Thunder.


Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and psychological trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.

Kaiser Toro
10-06-2005, 07:53 AM
Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and physcilogical trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.

With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?

BREAZE
10-06-2005, 07:59 AM
With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?


He was.

We may need to consider going after a new #1 QB and actually build around him. I'm sure the new head coach will agree...

Vinny
10-06-2005, 07:59 AM
Carr has been sack 160 times since his 1st snap, but I'm sure that is mostly on him. Lucky for Carr he has his legs. How many sacks would we be speaking of if he ran like Troy Aikman?

160 sacks in a little over 3 years and climbing fast. Yea, I say put Ragone in before Carr has no trade value at all...Most of the sacks are on the team, the line and the scheme...but Carr is a big part of the problem. Being fast or having running ability has ZERO to do with sacks. Guys like Culpepper and Vick take more sacks than slower QB's all the time. Being good in the pocket isn't about speed.

texan279
10-06-2005, 08:07 AM
I have been thinkg about this for days now, and I think the FO at least had the right intentions, by taking Boselli, Payne, and Walker in the expansion draft. IMO you have to start building at the line, that is where the battle starts. Well then Boselli never sees a snap. Then we draft Carr and AJ. But what good is it going to do? We should have started building a line.

Guys like Culpepper and Vick take more sacks than slower QB's all the time. Being good in the pocket isn't about speed.

You're eight, Culpepper has been sacked 21 times so far this season...

BREAZE
10-06-2005, 08:07 AM
Being fast or having running ability has ZERO to do with sacks.

huh? It has a lot to do with it when there is zero protection. Unless you like a lot of intentional grounding it means everything...

humbleone
10-06-2005, 08:10 AM
With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?


Good question. I would say "yes" only qualified with the following:

(1) New coaches are on the way (HC, OC, OL the whole nine yards) because Carr with this bunch is a disaster of biblical perportions.

(2) They (the new coaching staff) believe in David and want him as their guy vs. starting over with someone else.

The limitations of Carr that Vinny has observed and commented on for sometime I still believe can be overcome with good coaching.

SESupergenius
10-06-2005, 08:21 AM
Hey ya, let's put in Banks to see what he can do, he won't get hurt because he doesn't take off when the pocket is collapsing....oh wait, Banks was knocked out for the year the last time we did that.

So if nothing has really changed in 4 years it must be Carrs fault, except that one little thing where Banks got injured because of pressure from the line. Coincidence?

Wolf
10-06-2005, 01:43 PM
I think Ragone should get some time just to answer the question - Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?

What do we risk if he is given a shot - that we lose a couple of games? That our offense can't move the ball consistently? We already have that.

Low risk, possible good reward - let him play.


Well if ragone played we wouldn't worry about Ragone getting blindsided when the LT lost his guy LOL
:)

Wolf
10-06-2005, 01:44 PM
Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and psychological trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.


If fisher was head coach? well we have the same OL

Runner
10-06-2005, 01:47 PM
Well if ragone played we wouldn't worry about Ragone getting blindsided when the LT lost his guy LOL
:)

I thought this was the straight line in my post:

Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?

Wolf
10-06-2005, 01:52 PM
I thought this was the straight line in my post:

Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?

Never know unless he gets game day experience.. I guess. Who would have thought Tom Brady would do what he does.. but again that is a coaching staff over there that uses their strengths

eriadoc
10-06-2005, 02:04 PM
The bottom line in the Carr saga, to me, is ..... If he had a good team around him, would he be able to deliver what was expected of him? I think that answer would have been yes, even halfway through last season. People so quickly forget the things that Carr showed last season when the team was playing well. EVERY quarterback in the NFL has weaknesses. It's the coaches' jobs to put their players in a position to succeed. Carr has enough strengths to be a Pro Bowl QB (if he isn't ruined yet) if he is put in a position to succeed. The elite quarterbacks have time to throw, they know what their line will do in any given scenario, they know what their WR will do when they see a blitz formation, etc. Carr has been given no such level of comfort and NO quarterback would have performed any better to this point, on this team. Period. Culpepper had an MVP-caliber season last year and has been developing into the QB that he was last year for a few years now. He has 21 sacks so far this year, and yeah, probably 5-7 of those are on him, SAME AS CARR. Pepper's center went down, they have issues with the run game, other parts of their O-line are questionable, they lost Moss ... and people suddenly think Pepper is a bad QB (they actually do, on the Vikings forums). Unbelievable.

I bring this up because I think there's a lesson to be learned there, and we as fans should realize that we don't know enough to single out Carr as the biggest source of the problem to this point. Personally, I think the O-line has to be targeted as the single biggest issue for this team. Sacks? Whatever. The pressures matter just as much as the sacks. If Carr is taking a sack by running out of bounds behind the line, why did he have to run? Most of the time, he has pressure. Pressures are every bit as devastating as sacks, and I would argue even moreso, since they tend to force turnovers a bit more than just straight sacks. Sure, some of the sacks are on Carr. Sure, Carr can do a few things to cut down on mistakes. The biggest problem is still the O-line. And I really don't think it's a personnel issue. The Colts have two second-year guys on their line (if I read correctly) that are starting and doing well this year. Neither were 1st-round picks, and the Colts haven't had a high draft pick in some time, aside from maybe trades. Yet Manning has been sacked ZERO times this year. And pressured precious little as well.

When we can keep our QB clean - whoever it is - we'll start to see some success at the position. Until then, we could have Joe Montana and still have this discussion.

WWJD
10-06-2005, 03:14 PM
David said last night on the news they are focused on cutting down on the sacks and if he has to throw the ball to the 3rd row to get rid of it he will.

We'll see what happens Sunday. I know nothing about the pass rush the Titans are capable of.

Porky
10-06-2005, 03:37 PM
You guys make me laugh. :rolleyes:

You know David Carr is 32nd in Passing Att.

And you guys expect wonderful stats from this guy?????

You don't have to have great stats to be a great QB. Just ask Tom Brady. As to the reasons his attempts are so low, I think part of it is the overall philosphy of Capers, and part is because Carr has looked so bad, and the protection has broken down enough other times that I am not sure they have enough confidence to allow him to chunk the rock 35 or 40 times a game.

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:14 AM
I just read somewhere that JP is getting benched in Buffalo..due to their offensive woes..

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:20 AM
Moulds said it's not a knock against Losman.

``I think J.P. knows he's the future here and he knows the situation was the coach's decision,'' he said. ``I talked to him yesterday about it. He's not happy about it, but feels that right now it's the coach's decision and he has to live with it.''

``I don't think it's a slap in the face,'' Evans added. ``For right now, maybe they felt he needed to sit and learn a little more and pick it up when he gets the opportunity.''


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aq0gsSz2TsOcI5RIzaVjCvRDubYF?slug=ap-billsqbs&prov=ap&type=lgns

Vinny
10-07-2005, 10:23 AM
You guys make me laugh. :rolleyes:

You know David Carr is 32nd in Passing Att.

And you guys expect wonderful stats from this guy?????If Carr would make more plays then the offense would be on the field longer. You can't throw the ball if you can't sustain drives.

Looking at his career (47 career games) David Carr has thrown for a minimum watermark of 210 yards and 2 TDs in the same game a grand total of 3 times in his career. All 3 losses. That means in the history of this franchise we have never had Carr throw for over 210 yards and 2 TD's in a win.

The bottom line is this team has 3 300 yard passing games out of over 50 games played and Carr has thrown 3 TD's or more 1 time in his career. This passing game is a much deeper problem than, "just give Carr more protection". With all Culpepper's problems he has still managed to throw for over 1000 yards (1019) so far this year. It's not just the line and it's not just Carr...the bottom line is the whole thing stinks.

Vinny
10-07-2005, 10:38 AM
If I pull down the QB production "watermark" to 201 yards and 2 TD's then we can move the stat from zero times in 47 games to one time. Hopefully that makes everyone feel better.

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:51 AM
I read on HPF website with their discussion of Carr.. Part of the problem is that the coaching staff fears us turning the ball over and they put the reigns on Carr .. That is why we don't see the deep passes or at least let AJ (or whoever) make a play on the ball.

this could be an issue that they don't trust Carr and that Carr doesn't trust them. I am making an assumption because I am not at the practice field or anything.

I am lost on what the Front office is doing with this group.. Maybe it is me taking my steel blue tinted glasses off, but I thought that this coaching staff talked about having a semi-balanced offense..one that runs the ball and can throw it downfield... (this was in 2002) but with Pendry/Capers .. they want a mostly a pound the ball. It just seems that the way we drafted and the way we play.. someone isn't on the same page.. I mean if we wanted a QB to not turn the ball over and pound the ball .. Why did we pick a QB #1 overall and a WR #3 overall? we should have signed Trent Dilfer at QB (I believe he was a FA in 2002) drafted Peppers (or someone else) for the d-line in 2002 and in 2003 draft McKinney (or someone else)at LT and built that way.. I am not saying we need to pass the ball all the time, but we tied a lot of money into 2 players that we either don't trust or they don't see the ball enough... Our drafting style and coaching style seems to be on different playing fields.

Vinny
10-07-2005, 10:52 AM
I read on HPF website with their discussion of Carr.. Part of the problem is that the coaching staff fears us turning the ball over and they put the reigns on Carr .. That is why we don't see the deep passes or at least let AJ (or whoever) make a play on the ball. Take this fwiw but from what I gather we had 4 deep passes that were open and should have been made but Carr missed the opportunity each time and threw short passes instead last week.

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:53 AM
here is the link to the discussion.. has some good football points to it

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4788

thanks Vinny, I forgot about being mentioned..

Vinny
10-07-2005, 10:54 AM
I'm not touchy...just drawing a line of production over the course of 47 games.

Wolf
10-07-2005, 10:55 AM
I was just curious if that was a standard watermark/benchmark or just a line that you drew yourself. Wow, everyone is touchy these days. :texflag:


If we are talking about the Texans..yes, that is a good benchmark.. if we are talking about the Raiders ..na

:) :tomato:

humbleone
10-07-2005, 01:26 PM
One of the interesting things to watch Sunday is the way a good coach (Jeff Fisher) has prepared his team and then makes adjustments during the game to give his team their best chance. And, the way his players play their guts out for the guy.

We are favored and absolutely can and should win this game (Titans are still reloading this year) but our guys better be ready because Fisher will have his guys looking for some heads to knock off at our expense (like Carr's for example). I hope Pendry has a plan to move DC around some and for goodness sake DC, don't always roll to the right (Fisher is going to have someone with attitude ready to ruin your day there if you don't show them that you can roll left and hurt them from that side of the field also).

Coaching at this level makes a "big" difference IMO and we would have a lock on the game Sunday if Capers were coaching the Titans and Fisher had our guys. Bottomline, Carr is not a BOMB...he is a victim along with the rest of us of really bad coaching. What kind of a performance do you think we could expect from DC tomorrow if he and even our OL played for Jeff Fisher for the last 4 years intead of Capers?

Here is hoping that the Texans hammer (not play Capers win it with the last possession in the 4th with a FG ball) the Titans. Maybe Bud Adams will get mad at Fisher if they lose enough games this year and McNair could then add him to his potential new HC list. Go Texans!!!

BREAZE
10-07-2005, 06:09 PM
That means in the history of this franchise we have never had Carr throw for over 210 yards and 2 TD's in a win.

The Texans have given up more sacks than any other team in history over a 3 year period...they are on pace to extend this 4 yrs running.

Its like a guy being robbed at gunpoint for 3 years straight and now catching heat because he's a little jumpy. I'm not saying Carr is going to take us to the promise land because he may be damaged beyond repair. However, to try and pin all the lack of offense production on Carr is shallow at best. I don't care if we had Brett Farve in his prime for the last 3 years, you would have seen these same results with this sorry excuse of an O-line.

The blame can be spread from top to bottom...period!

HJam72
10-07-2005, 08:51 PM
One thing that is absolutely certain about this team is that the pass protection is HORRIBLE. Let's get it fixed before we worry about what QB we want (Carr or whoever), because nobody's gonna do jack-(you know what) with this pass protection. We could have AJ, Moss, and Owens with (insert your favorite all-time QB here) and still have a bad offense right now.

We need to fix the O-line, get a 2 dimensional TE (or get Joppru healthy), get a legitimate #2 receiver going (whether he's already on the team or not), and THEN we can worry about whether Carr is the man or whether DD will ever rush for like 1600 yds. You can't lead the league in sacks allowed every year and blame your freaking QB for your problems. I see Carr making mistakes, but I even wonder if some of the best QBs around wouldn't make the same mistakes under these circumstances. Even if they wouldn't, it doesn't matter, because I want to know how Carr will do under a completely different set of circumstances, like when we have excellent protection and he's reading the blitz and making a play in the Superbowl. Why should I even care how good or bad he is under circumstances that no QB should even have to play under in the first place? Casserly or Capers. One of them needs to go.