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View Full Version : why isnt Armstrong on the field more?


Gilly
09-20-2005, 08:50 AM
It seems to me that he is the only one willing to actually catch the ball when david throws it to him. He runs good routes and has good hands. With AJ getting triple coverage every freaking play we NEED somebody to step up and make a play. I think Armstrong is the guy that can do this.

And another thing, Why hasn't Gaf been cut yet? His play has been pathetic the last three years, and is getting progressively worse.

It is wake up time in houston, and I personally hold CC responcible for the lack of decent personel simply because it is his job to provide the best players for their respective positions. Zero offensive help this offseason is going to prove to be a fatal mistake. :texflag:

Runner
09-20-2005, 08:53 AM
Because:

a) he wasn't a high draft pick
b) he doesn't make millions per year


I'm hoping that will change to putting the best talent on the field and holding those players accountable for their play.

SteelBlueToro
09-20-2005, 08:59 AM
All he does is catches the ball...
:brickwall

Runner
09-20-2005, 09:02 AM
All he does is catches the ball...
:brickwall

...like he's using stick'um.

He's our best choice at #2 receiver.

Gilly
09-20-2005, 09:02 AM
And that is a bad thing? nobody else will.

texan279
09-20-2005, 09:02 AM
Capers was asked this on his show yesterday and he said the reason is because Armstrong is more of a possession WR and Bradford is more of a burner WR but he said he was going to try to work Armstrong into the offense more as long as he keeps making plays...

Runner
09-20-2005, 09:09 AM
Capers was asked this on his show yesterday and he said the reason is because Armstrong is more of a possession WR and Bradford is more of a burner WR but he said he was going to try to work Armstrong into the offense more as long as he keeps making plays...

I think I'd rather have a possesion receiver creating first downs than a burner threatening something that doesn't happen. Especially when that burner isn't making the other receivers' jobs easier by his mere presence on the field.

Vinny
09-20-2005, 09:13 AM
Gaff is solid and he is productive when he gets looks. I've posted many things about this but I don't like to fight it anymore. Armstrong and Gaffney will very likely both see more looks under Pendry since I think he will not over think this offense like Palmer used to.

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 09:59 AM
And another thing, Why hasn't Gaf been cut yet? His play has been pathetic the last three years, and is getting progressively worse.

Really? Do you have any data to back up this claim? Or are you pulling it directly from your posterior? Here's some data that might interest you --

2004

AJ - 138 targets, 79 catches (57.25%), 14.5 Yds./catch, 53 1st downs
Bradford - 54 targets, 27 catches (50%), 14.8 Yds./catch, 20 1st downs
Gaffney - 68 targets, 41 catches (60.29%), 15.4 Yds./catch, 34 1st downs

Isn't Bradford (or maybe AJ) supposed to be our deep threat? Yet Gaffney averaged 15.4 YPC, better than either of them. But wait, Gaffney had a better 1st-down-to-catch ratio than either of them as well, so he's clearly our "move the chains"-type possession receiver, right? I'm too lazy to go look up stats for drops, but I'd be willing to wager that Gaffney has a much lower percentage of drops as well.

On second thought, if we're to really achieve our goal of obtaining the number one overall pick in the upcoming draft, then yes, we should cut Gaffney.

Link to stats -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2004/texans/

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 11:30 AM
Really? Do you have any data to back up this claim? Or are you pulling it directly from your posterior? Here's some data that might interest you --

2004

AJ - 138 targets, 79 catches (57.25%), 14.5 Yds./catch, 53 1st downs
Bradford - 54 targets, 27 catches (50%), 14.8 Yds./catch, 20 1st downs
Gaffney - 68 targets, 41 catches (60.29%), 15.4 Yds./catch, 34 1st downs

Isn't Bradford (or maybe AJ) supposed to be our deep threat? Yet Gaffney averaged 15.4 YPC, better than either of them. But wait, Gaffney had a better 1st-down-to-catch ratio than either of them as well, so he's clearly our "move the chains"-type possession receiver, right? I'm too lazy to go look up stats for drops, but I'd be willing to wager that Gaffney has a much lower percentage of drops as well.

On second thought, if we're to really achieve our goal of obtaining the number one overall pick in the upcoming draft, then yes, we should cut Gaffney.

Link to stats -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2004/texans/


lol dude, how about the fact that hes in his 4th year as the 33rd pick and he has something like 1500 total yards receiving?

How about the fact that guys like Quincy Morgan and Antonio Bryant, both considered major busts, have serverely outperformed him.



You dont spend the 33rd pick on a guy you expect 500 yards and 1 TD from. Hes been a major disappointment, tons of #1's come in the late 1st early second, and he can barely hold onto his slot job.

He cant create seperation, hes really small, hes pretty slow. So in essence hes a slow small posession receiver.



I still dont get why people are so high on a guy like this. He hasnt produced anything yet. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th rounder I might agree hes ok, but he was basically a 1st rounder, and he has performed like a 5th.

rafterticket
09-20-2005, 11:53 AM
Capers was asked this on his show yesterday and he said the reason is because Armstrong is more of a possession WR and Bradford is more of a burner WR but he said he was going to try to work Armstrong into the offense more as long as he keeps making plays...

I heard that too. But isn't a "burner" someone your opponent fears? Who in the world is scared of Corey Bradford?

Armstrong has hands. Right now, the only one that seems to. He needs to be on the field as the #2. Man, I miss Sloan Thomas, too. He at least busted his tail.

Vinny
09-20-2005, 12:03 PM
He cant create seperation, hes really small, hes pretty slow. So in essence hes a slow small posession receiver.

I still dont get why people are so high on a guy like this. He hasnt produced anything yet. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th rounder I might agree hes ok, but he was basically a 1st rounder, and he has performed like a 5th.
Some of this stuff is just pretty ignorant. I guess Gaffney is the smallest 6'1" 205 pound guy I have ever seen. Gaffney was 6th in the NFL in converting 3rd downs into first downs last year...ahead of a ton of quality receivers (more than 6 of them in the NFL). Carr threw to Gaffney 21 times on third down in 2004 and completed each pass for a first down...every single one of them. Some of Gaffney's lack of production comes out of the fact that Carr isn't one of the better QB's at scanning the field and reading defenses and will look to his primary too long and just dump the ball off to Dom. If you really break down Carr's passes over the 4 years he has always had trouble identifying his mid-read options. His rookie year was all Bradford (first read) and Billy Miller (last read - safety valve at that time). Not much in the middle then either.

Last season, Gaffney finished sixth in the league for converting 82.9 percent of his receptions into first downs.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/fb/texans/3338630

In the last two years Gaffney has dropped 2 of 125 balls directed toward him--about 1.8%. In the same time period Randy Moss has dropped 13 of 257--about 5%. I guess that either makes Moss Sir Dropsalot or makes Gaffney Spiderman--either way, Gaffney's hands are not an issue.

Texans QBs have attempted 905 passes over the last 2 years. (If I am doing my math right) That means that Gaff gets a pass his way only once every about 7.4th pass. That is a pitiful ratio.

Reddevil63
09-20-2005, 12:08 PM
Vinny, Ill bet you get tired of posting the same argument for Gaf, you should just copy that and post it everytime somebody else thinks that Gaffney should be catching balls that arent thrown at him. Jabar Gaffney is the least of this teams worries right now, yet he gets a ton of criticism on this board, I dont get it.

Vinny
09-20-2005, 12:09 PM
Now he is 'too small'. It's just amazing what I read here sometimes.

William.carter
09-20-2005, 12:18 PM
lol dude, how about the fact that hes in his 4th year as the 33rd pick and he has something like 1500 total yards receiving?

How about the fact that guys like Quincy Morgan and Antonio Bryant, both considered major busts, have serverely outperformed him.



You dont spend the 33rd pick on a guy you expect 500 yards and 1 TD from. Hes been a major disappointment, tons of #1's come in the late 1st early second, and he can barely hold onto his slot job.

He cant create seperation, hes really small, hes pretty slow. So in essence hes a slow small posession receiver.



I still dont get why people are so high on a guy like this. He hasnt produced anything yet. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th rounder I might agree hes ok, but he was basically a 1st rounder, and he has performed like a 5th.


Maybe you have the dilusion he hasn't produced because Bradford is on the field dropping balls all the time instead of Gaf who can catch, and be aware enough to run his route past the 1st down marker. Nah that couldn't possibly be it. Bench Bradford for a game and Start Gaf and see what happens.

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 12:33 PM
lol dude, how about the fact that hes in his 4th year as the 33rd pick and he has something like 1500 total yards receiving?

How about the fact that guys like Quincy Morgan and Antonio Bryant, both considered major busts, have serverely outperformed him.

See, wide receivers are in sort of a neat position in that they have to receive the ball. That implies that someone (Carr) has to actually identify that there's someone on the field besides AJ and DD. When Carr has bothered to include Gaffney in his reads, the results have been positive. Gaffney has good metrics - the only stat you can say he's underperformed in is targets, and he can't control that too much.

You dont spend the 33rd pick on a guy you expect 500 yards and 1 TD from. Hes been a major disappointment, tons of #1's come in the late 1st early second, and he can barely hold onto his slot job.

He cant create seperation, hes really small, hes pretty slow. So in essence hes a slow small posession receiver.

Hmm, you're really killing your credibility here, but I'll take it easy on you since Vinny pointed out your misconceptions already. Armstrong and Gaffney are very similar in terms of speed and hands. The only difference really is the fact that they put Armstrong in for situations that they expect to throw the ball to him. As for your assertion on their stats, Gaffney has gotten about 460 yards a year, with more TDs than that, on far fewer attempts than either Bradford or AJ. Imagine what he could do if he had 100 targets a year. How about 60 catches for 900 yards? That's about what most #2 WR do on a team, maybe more. The TDs are a product of the system, not the receivers, else AJ would have more than a paltry 6 TDs last year.

I still dont get why people are so high on a guy like this. He hasnt produced anything yet. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th rounder I might agree hes ok, but he was basically a 1st rounder, and he has performed like a 5th.

I don't think people are necessarily high on Gaffney, but they are savvy enough to realize that the lack of production from the #2 WR stem from other issues. Gaffney has proven that, when given the targets, he can produce, and has produced better than a 5th round pick, most of whom don't make professional rosters. Yet the coaches keep putting Bradford in there in an effort to stretch the field. How about we go deep with AJ and Mathis and use Gaffney for what he is best suited?

Grizzled
09-20-2005, 02:30 PM
I think you should play Armstrong more. He’s got good size, 4.5 type speed, and is a very fluid athlete. He can use his athleticism to make plays that you wouldn’t expect him to make. He caught passes for over 1000 yards with us (the CFL’s Saskatchewan Roughriders) one year so he’s used to the ball coming his way a lot too.

(I also heard that you had Reggie Swinton on your roster this spring. As some further CFL trivia for you, he also had a short stay in the CFL, as a return specialist with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Chris Palmer also coached for a year in the CFL, and a candidate as your new OL coach, Tony Martino, coached a number of years in the CFL.)

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 02:30 PM
See, wide receivers are in sort of a neat position in that they have to receive the ball. That implies that someone (Carr) has to actually identify that there's someone on the field besides AJ and DD. When Carr has bothered to include Gaffney in his reads, the results have been positive. Gaffney has good metrics - the only stat you can say he's underperformed in is targets, and he can't control that too much.



Hmm, you're really killing your credibility here, but I'll take it easy on you since Vinny pointed out your misconceptions already. Armstrong and Gaffney are very similar in terms of speed and hands. The only difference really is the fact that they put Armstrong in for situations that they expect to throw the ball to him. As for your assertion on their stats, Gaffney has gotten about 460 yards a year, with more TDs than that, on far fewer attempts than either Bradford or AJ. Imagine what he could do if he had 100 targets a year. How about 60 catches for 900 yards? That's about what most #2 WR do on a team, maybe more. The TDs are a product of the system, not the receivers, else AJ would have more than a paltry 6 TDs last year.



I don't think people are necessarily high on Gaffney, but they are savvy enough to realize that the lack of production from the #2 WR stem from other issues. Gaffney has proven that, when given the targets, he can produce, and has produced better than a 5th round pick, most of whom don't make professional rosters. Yet the coaches keep putting Bradford in there in an effort to stretch the field. How about we go deep with AJ and Mathis and use Gaffney for what he is best suited?

see I hate this too, everyone posts these useless stats about how he was 6th in the league in converting 3rd downs.... seriously, does that make him a good player? Does it make up for his total lack of even mediocre production thus far?

Yall bring up the same generic arguement every time, with useless stats. Did I say he cant catch? NO! Did I say Armstrong was better than him? NO!

Dont put words in my mouth or act so smug about Gaff because hes dropped 2 out of 125.

The object of being a receiver is to catch balls and score touchdowns. Or maybe draw coverage off of another receiver. He does none of these. An average of 1.33 TD's per year, amazing.

And saying "if he got the ball 500 times hed have 10,000 yards" is so ridiculous. He has what he has. Go ahead and blame Carr, but if Gaffney was half as good as you think he would warrant a look even from someone u perceive as ****** as Carr. Surely it cant be his lack of ability to get open, it must be Carr!

Then you go off about his ypc last year, did you happen to look at what it was the previous 2 years? 11.8. once again, amazing.


You seem to think Im saying he sucks, but if you actually read what I said instead of just assuming I was an ***** hater you'd see most of it is true. Hes an alright #3, stop treating him like our secret weapon that needs to be utilized so we can be unstoppable.

For where he was drafted, hes been a major bust. just look at his stats compared to Quincy Morgan, a guy with a worse qb than Carr.



Im sorry, it just gets on my nerves when people play up a guy to be much better than he is. But yet im the one thats perceived as stupid because I doubt a guy that has done nothing will all of a sudden start being worth half as much as he cost.

jaayteetx
09-20-2005, 02:33 PM
Thats exactly was I was saying Sunday, err... more like screaming!

dalemurphy
09-20-2005, 03:40 PM
see I hate this too, everyone posts these useless stats about how he was 6th in the league in converting 3rd downs.... seriously, does that make him a good player? Does it make up for his total lack of even mediocre production thus far?

Yall bring up the same generic arguement every time, with useless stats. Did I say he cant catch? NO! Did I say Armstrong was better than him? NO!

Dont put words in my mouth or act so smug about Gaff because hes dropped 2 out of 125.

The object of being a receiver is to catch balls and score touchdowns. Or maybe draw coverage off of another receiver. He does none of these. An average of 1.33 TD's per year, amazing.

And saying "if he got the ball 500 times hed have 10,000 yards" is so ridiculous. He has what he has. Go ahead and blame Carr, but if Gaffney was half as good as you think he would warrant a look even from someone u perceive as ****** as Carr. Surely it cant be his lack of ability to get open, it must be Carr!

Then you go off about his ypc last year, did you happen to look at what it was the previous 2 years? 11.8. once again, amazing.


You seem to think Im saying he sucks, but if you actually read what I said instead of just assuming I was an ***** hater you'd see most of it is true. Hes an alright #3, stop treating him like our secret weapon that needs to be utilized so we can be unstoppable.

For where he was drafted, hes been a major bust. just look at his stats compared to Quincy Morgan, a guy with a worse qb than Carr.



Im sorry, it just gets on my nerves when people play up a guy to be much better than he is. But yet im the one thats perceived as stupid because I doubt a guy that has done nothing will all of a sudden start being worth half as much as he cost.

So, according to the way you evaluate talent, I guess that Darrell Jackson is a better WR than Andre Johnson. After all, Darrell Jackson had more yards, catches and TDs than Andre did... Forget the fact that he dropped 13 passes and his comp % was pathetic.

Or, I suppose Eddie Kennison is a better WR than Lynn Swann. Haywood Jeffries- that was one great WR. Deion Branch must suck. Apparently Chris Chambers is only an average WR. After all, he only averages 800 yards and 7 TDs a year.

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 03:45 PM
So, according to the way you evaluate talent, I guess that Darrell Jackson is a better WR than Andre Johnson. After all, Darrell Jackson had more yards, catches and TDs than Andre did... Forget the fact that he dropped 13 passes and his comp % was pathetic.

Or, I suppose Eddie Kennison is a better WR than Lynn Swann. Haywood Jeffries- that was one great WR. Deion Branch must suck. Apparently Chris Chambers is only an average WR. After all, he only averages 800 yards and 7 TDs a year.


You have to be kidding me... I didnt say any of this, wtf are you talking about?

Who said anything about Chris Chambers? or Darell Jackson? Lynn Swann? I didnt know we were living in the past. Deion Branch?

All of those guys are much better than Gaffney, what is you point?

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 03:47 PM
see I hate this too, everyone posts these useless stats about how he was 6th in the league in converting 3rd downs.... seriously, does that make him a good player? Does it make up for his total lack of even mediocre production thus far?

At least we are basing our assertion on something tangible. Your assertions that he is less than mediocre totally ignores the situation he's been put in. If the ball is not thrown his way, how much blame does he deserve?

Yall bring up the same generic arguement every time, with useless stats. Did I say he cant catch? NO! Did I say Armstrong was better than him? NO!
Dont put words in my mouth or act so smug about Gaff because hes dropped 2 out of 125.

I don't believe I put words in your mouth at all, so I'll assume that's intended for another target. The statistic regarding the drops is just another metric of Gaffney's talent. Ignore it if you wish, but it does not go away. Two drops out of 125 touches is a great ratio and far better than AJ or Bradford.

Then you go off about his ypc last year, did you happen to look at what it was the previous 2 years? 11.8. once again, amazing.

First of all, I posted last year's stats in response to the original poster who claimed that Gaffney has not improved and in fact has gotten worse. I neglected to post the 2002-2003 stats to bolster my case. Thank you for pointing out the improvement from '02/'03 to '04.

Again -- I am not necessarily high on Gaffney, or Armstrong, or one versus the other, but to dismiss Gaffney as a bust is blatantly overlooking facts that directly dispute your claims.

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 03:54 PM
At least we are basing our assertion on something tangible. Your assertions that he is less than mediocre totally ignores the situation he's been put in. If the ball is not thrown his way, how much blame does he deserve?



I don't believe I put words in your mouth at all, so I'll assume that's intended for another target. The statistic regarding the drops is just another metric of Gaffney's talent. Ignore it if you wish, but it does not go away. Two drops out of 125 touches is a great ratio and far better than AJ or Bradford.



First of all, I posted last year's stats in response to the original poster who claimed that Gaffney has not improved and in fact has gotten worse. I neglected to post the 2002-2003 stats to bolster my case. Thank you for pointing out the improvement from '02/'03 to '04.

Again -- I am not necessarily high on Gaffney, or Armstrong, or one versus the other, but to dismiss Gaffney as a bust is blatantly overlooking facts that directly dispute your claims.


so the facts that prove he isnt a bust are that he converts 3rd downs well and doesnt drop many passes?

thats it?

whatever happened to having to produce?

Reddevil63
09-20-2005, 03:58 PM
so the facts that prove he isnt a bust are that he converts 3rd downs well and doesnt drop many passes?

thats it?

whatever happened to having to produce?
OMG are you serious? How is a receiver supposed to produce if he isnt thrown the ball???? Answer me that one question before you go on another rant...

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 04:02 PM
OMG are you serious? How is a receiver supposed to produce if he isnt thrown the ball???? Answer me that one question before you go on another rant...

he is thrown the ball... Remember the pass that hit him in the arm a week ago?

Must have been Carr's fault right?

People just assume Carr cant get him the ball, and while some of that may be true, Gaffney isnt open most of the time, no one was. you going to disagree with Carr saying no one was open thats fine, but dont act like Gaffney is Meshawn and u just need to "get him the d@mn ball"

Reddevil63
09-20-2005, 04:08 PM
So are you baseing the past 3+ seasons on one busted play? I agree that was inexcusable, but even the great receivers take plays off. Again no excuse but you get where Im coming from. And if your saying that nobody was open than we should cut Johnson and Armstrong also?

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 04:13 PM
So are you baseing the past 3+ seasons on one busted play? I agree that was inexcusable, but even the great receivers take plays off. Again no excuse but you get where Im coming from. And if your saying that nobody was open than we should cut Johnson and Armstrong also?

no... Did I say we should cut Gaffney?

All I'm saying is that the guy was the 33rd pick in the draft and has been a severe disappointment, if not a bust.

Reddevil63
09-20-2005, 04:19 PM
Then read those stats that you love to hate, that Vinny so kindly posted for the 800th time and you will see why Gaffney has been a disappointment. :goodnight

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 04:43 PM
OK, SteveO, I'll pose a few questions to you. How do you measure production? If a WR goes out on the field for one play the entire game (coach's call), runs the correct route, and catches the prescribed pass, is he deemed productive? Or are you only concerned with end numbers? If a player goes out for 750 plays and makes 75 catches on 135 target opportunities, is he productive? What if he makes each of those catches for 5.0 yards per catch? 15.0 YPC? I want to know your method of defining "production".

stevo3883
09-20-2005, 06:05 PM
OK, SteveO, I'll pose a few questions to you. How do you measure production? If a WR goes out on the field for one play the entire game (coach's call), runs the correct route, and catches the prescribed pass, is he deemed productive? Or are you only concerned with end numbers? If a player goes out for 750 plays and makes 75 catches on 135 target opportunities, is he productive? What if he makes each of those catches for 5.0 yards per catch? 15.0 YPC? I want to know your method of defining "production".


hmm... I guess Ill just give up. Its pretty sad how everyone is totally okay having a guy that was picked 33rd be a #3 receiver. Guys like Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Randle El, Deion Branch, Chris Chambers, Jerry Porter, Laverneus Coles, Darell Jackson were all picked later than Gaffney. But hey, I guess Im just delusional and Gaffney really is as good as they are.

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 09:35 PM
To be honest, almost every one of those receivers you named is better than AJ, if you just look at stats. I'll grant you that the slot opposite AJ has not been as productive as is necessary, but I don't think anyone can effectively argue that it's Gaffney. It's a scheme issue. As far as being a bust relative to where he was picked, Gaffney had no control over where he was picked or more importantly, by whom he was picked. If Gaffney had been on most other NFL teams, I fully believe he's shown production equivalent to what most #2 guys on an average offense put up in a season. Most teams do not have two 1000-yard receivers and they make do just fine. So I am not saying that Gaffney is all that great, but I am saying he's nowhere near as bad as you and the original poster make him out to be, nor is he deserving of the grief that fans seem to dish out. It won't hurt my feelings one bit if Mathis, Armstrong, Diet Pepsi machine, or whoever comes along and supplants Gaffney with some stellar numbers. But until this offense fixes what's wrong, it's not really going to happen. And if they do fix it, Gaffney's good enough to post the numbers one would expect froma number 2 WR. Whether the team should have taken a #2-caliber WR that early in the draft is a different discussion, but I think many on here are already of the belief that our team sucks at evaluating or developing talent, or both.

Vinny
09-20-2005, 09:46 PM
hmm... I guess Ill just give up. Its pretty sad how everyone is totally okay having a guy that was picked 33rd be a #3 receiver. Guys like Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Randle El, Deion Branch, Chris Chambers, Jerry Porter, Laverneus Coles, Darell Jackson were all picked later than Gaffney. But hey, I guess Im just delusional and Gaffney really is as good as they are.Last time I checked none of those players were in the weak 2002 draft. Pull it up sometimes and see for yourself. You can't just manufacture talent out of air. The only wr picked that year after Gaffney that has outproduced him is Deion Branch. Sometimes you just have to pick BPA when you are an expansion team in need of a WR. That said, Gaffney isn't our problem in the slot. He's proven to be a solid slot guy.