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View Full Version : Carr: Is he able to playcall, or just not given the chance to?


GP
09-19-2005, 11:51 PM
During the Saints-Giants game tonight, they showed clips of Eli Manning firing lasers down the field. Nothing fancy. Eli would drop and let the ball go almost as soon as his last drop-step hit the ground. It wasn't like he was standing in a pocket for an eternity or anything. And he was looking off receivers, etc., just doing the normal progressions an NFL QB has to make to keep the chains moving. Then, an amazing thing happened. busted up by several passing plays, the Saints defense didn't even lay a hand on Tiki Barber as he scampered into the end zone from about 10-yards out. Just as Willie Parker did to us last weekend after Ben would pick us apart with smart reads and accurate passes down the majority of the field.

And here's the meat of this story:

Suzie Kohlber, the cool sideline reporter for Monday Night Football, told Al and John upstairs that Eli's teammates were very confident in him this year, and she said (Gasp!) that Eli calls MOST of the plays himself.

What a shocker.

You mean some NFL QBs actually have the confidence of their coaches to know what's happening and make the adjustments as needed?

I thought every QB was required to let their offensive coordinator, a fat guy in a skin-tight t-shirt half-a-mile away in the nose-bleed booth, who is sipping on a Dr. Pepper and looking through a phone book-sized playbook call the play since he's so in-touch with what the QB is going through in a real game of life and death on the field where men-eating defensive players salivate over driving your helmet through your skull and down into your chest cavity.

At what point does Carr get to be a grown-up and call the majority of plays?

At what point do we take the training wheels off and let David do what a second-year guy (Eli Manning) is already doing in NEW YORK of all places, the place where disgruntled players like Plaxico go...the place where old players like Barber are running wild like Hulk-A-Mania? It ain't like the Giants are several years ahead of us in terms of talent, OK?

There is a direct correlation to the success of Peyton, who calls most of his own plays, and the early success of Eli Manning who has his team at 2-0 in only his second year of being an NFL QB.

Get whatever coordiantor you want, Mr. McNair...

At some point, David's gotta be entrusted with the majority of playcalling. Unless him running out of bounds every other play is Carr's playcalling.

I honestly do NOT know if ANY coordinator is the answer if Carr canot be entrusted to call plays and lead HIS team down the field. It kinda' starts with him, and maybe he'll get to do more playcalling now.

But, as most of you have pointed out...capers has put his "boy" Pendry in there to run the ball like it's 1996 all over again.

So what's the answer to this question: Can Carr playcall at all? Or has he been prevented from doing so by the-now-fired-Chris Palmer? And, was the promotion of Pendry because team management feels that the o line coach knows what his line Can and Can't do...basically saying that Palmer's philosophy clashed with the style of our o line, and was the reason behind the schizoid play by our entire offense?

I mean, remember the article after the last reg season game last year where Capers and Carr "sat down" and held Palmer's hand and politely requested that Palmer develop a playbook that would help keep Carr upright this year? Was THAT a Capers smokescreen and sales job, too? Somewhere along the way, we are going to learn whether Palmer really was at the root of this problem, or if Capers is an excellent salesman who diverted the sniper scopes toward other people. I honestly, 100% am confuzed right now. This is like a bad soap opera where I "think" I know who killed Jessie...but it could also have been someone else. This whole thing is bizarre-o if you ask me. And I can't wait to see the truth get revealed. Just hope it's soon.

Good grief.............................. :goodnight

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 06:35 AM
At what point does Carr get to be a grown-up and call the majority of plays?

When Capers' ego isn't controlling things. Capers is a control freak. Carr is not allowed to call plays and he actually doesn't have much control over his audibles. He goes into the huddle with a set of plays and if he feels the need to audible out, he can choose one of the prescribed plays for that formation. This is why we've seen the 2nd-and-20 draw so frequently - Carr gets to the line and reads that the defense will disrupt the play they have called, but he has no control to change the routes or switch to a better play.

It borders on ridiculous, really. I think if Carr were allowed to call his own plays, he'd have a lot more confidence in his team. It's pretty much the same for any walk of life. Corporations call it "ownership", trying ot get people to take pride in their work. I don't own my network at work, but I refer to it as "my" network, and if anything goes wrong with it, it's my baby. Maybe Capers just needs to take a good old fashioned management class.

Regarding Carr's abilities -- I think he had the skills coming out of college to learn anything they could throw at him, including playcalling. I think he might be a little screwed up in his head right now, but getting him started on playcalling might start to restore that swagger he used to have. As much as the Carr bashers love to overlook it, there's a darn good reason Carr is the way he is at this point -- he's been coached to be this way.

ATX
09-20-2005, 06:44 AM
We have 2 audibles. Davis run left and the quick pass to Dre :brickwall

ATX
09-20-2005, 06:54 AM
:texflag:

touttail
09-20-2005, 07:20 AM
From what I saw, Eli had a BUNCH of time to look at recievers and get rid of the ball. Very seldom was anyone breathing down his neck!


bobby 119C :brickwall

Kaiser Toro
09-20-2005, 07:30 AM
The less decisions Carr is allowed to make the better we are. He is an articulate man, but sometime intelligence off of the field does not transfer on the field. He makes horrible decisions, reactions and reads. Very painful to watch.

touttail
09-20-2005, 08:00 AM
Also, I think very few QB's call their own plays. Especially with the electronics age(earphones in the helmets).


bobby 119C

BigBull17
09-20-2005, 08:02 AM
The less decisions Carr is allowed to make the better we are. He is an articulate man, but sometime intelligence off of the field does not transfer on the field. He makes horrible decisions, reactions and reads. Very painful to watch.
That could be due to him having a lack of options and trying to do too much with to little. If he were in a unit that was productive but he was the sole problem i would agree with you but this is hardly a productive situation for anyone on our offense.

rittenhouserobz
09-20-2005, 08:40 AM
What if Carr is trying to adhere to a STRICT gameplan? What if he is trying execute the coaches plan? I would like to see Carr call his plays and have the OC pointing out the weaknesses of the defense.

Crank_It_Up
09-20-2005, 08:55 AM
We have 2 audibles. Davis run left and the quick pass to Dre :brickwallit sure seems that way

Marcus
09-20-2005, 09:36 AM
This is the problem that I have with David Carr . . . regardless if he's allowed to call his own plays.

After the Texans game, the network switched to the last few minutes of the Colts/Jags game. The clock is running out on the Jags. It's either 3rd or 4th down and long . . . Leftwich drops back to pass and plants his feet. Here comes Freeney. Leftwich see's him coming. He knows he's going to get leveled. He knows he's going to get his head knocked off. But he keeps his feet planted anyway, finds the open receiver, and lets the pass go just as Freeney hits him . . . and gets the completion for the first down. Leftwich almost didn't get up. He was in obvious pain and limped the rest of the game. But he stood there with his feet planted and he took the hit.

Would Carr have done that?

(I think we all know the answer.)



_____________________________________

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 09:41 AM
After the Texans game, the network switched to the last few minutes of the Colts/Jags game. The clock is running out on the Jags. It's either 3rd or 4th down and long . . . Leftwich drops back to pass and plants his feet. Here comes Freeney. Leftwich see's him coming. He knows he's going to get leveled. He knows he's going to get his head knocked off. But he keeps his feet planted anyway, finds the open receiver, and lets the pass go just as Freeney hits him . . . and gets the completion for the first down. Leftwich almost didn't get up. He was in obvious pain and limped the rest of the game. But he stood there with his feet planted and he took the hit.

Would Carr have done that?

(I think we all know the answer.)

Yes, he would have, and has done so -- for the first 100 sacks anyway. I'm sure Leftwich will remember that pain and after 100 or so sacks, he'll start compensating. It's inevitable. There's no way you can seriously question Carr's toughness. Think back to the ATL game when he runs and dives headfirst to get a first down, knowing he's going to get hurt, yet he takes it, gets back up, and leads the team to a TD drive. Carr has the toughness, no question. When Leftwich has taken as many hits as Carr, we'll see if he still stands there like that.

Ibar_Harry
09-20-2005, 09:43 AM
You pose and interesting question as Carr is not a product ever where he was allowed to call his own plays. Could he? I don't think anyone honestly knows.

Hervoyel
09-20-2005, 09:54 AM
I'm in favor of letting the fourth year quarterback take all the rope he thinks he can handle. Seriously, I'm not knocking the idea of Carr calling his own plays at all even though it probably sounds like it. He's been the starter long enough to call his own plays. If he can't do it at this point then he probably has no business leading the offense.

I just think that Carr is probably going to get crucified for whatever happens from here on out. It's only fair to let him choose how he goes down if that's what's going to happen. I ask all of you, honestly....could Carr do any worse of a job than we've seen in the first two weeks?

Marcus
09-20-2005, 10:03 AM
Yes, he would have, and has done so -- for the first 100 sacks anyway. I'm sure Leftwich will remember that pain and after 100 or so sacks, he'll start compensating. It's inevitable. There's no way you can seriously question Carr's toughness. Think back to the ATL game when he runs and dives headfirst to get a first down, knowing he's going to get hurt, yet he takes it, gets back up, and leads the team to a TD drive. Carr has the toughness, no question. When Leftwich has taken as many hits as Carr, we'll see if he still stands there like that.

Just for the sake of argument, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and concede that . . . yes, Carr did indeed have that toughness to begin with. OK?

But NOW . . . he doesn't. And the multi-million dollar question is . . . is it possible for him (or anyone for that matter) to get it back once you've lost it?

I've never heard of that happening. If you have . . . please enighten me.





____________________________

Vinny
09-20-2005, 10:15 AM
I ask all of you, honestly....could Carr do any worse of a job than we've seen in the first two weeks?Probably not since we are the worst team in football but I can't be comfortable with a QB calling his own plays who has shown as little football instinct as Carr has shown. Carr has a great body and a great arm for a prototype, but where he has been lacking is in the football instincts area. Most QB's don't call their own plays anyway...I don't knw why we would let Carr.

HJam72
09-20-2005, 10:16 AM
I think that I, as a an OC up in the booth, would do a better job of calling plays than I would as a QB down on the field, if I had become either one of those people. I would just be able to see everything better. However, I think you have to give a QB plenty of opportunity to audible and many variations to audible to. A D is going to surprise you sometimes and somebody on the field has to be able adjust the play-calling at the last minute, right before the snap. It seems that David is only allowed to audible to a draw play or a Go pattern to AJ and that's just not enough options. If they don't think he can handle more than that, they shouldn't have ever drafted him.

The fact that Capers is a control freak is part of why he probably needs to go.

Hervoyel
09-20-2005, 10:28 AM
Probably not since we are the worst team in football but I can't be comfortable with a QB calling his own plays who has shown as little football instinct as Carr has shown. Carr has a great body and a great arm for a prototype, but where he has been lacking is in the football instincts area. Most QB's don't call their own plays anyway...I don't knw why we would let Carr.


And that's valid. If you're the Texans and you don't want to give Carr the freedom to call all of his own plays I completely understand that. The subset of plays he has to audible to though seems to me at least to be a little too constraining. There must be some kind of happy medium where Carr has room to create but he's guided by someone seeing the bigger picture upstairs.

Right now and in the past I have always felt that I was watching Carr do what he was told and in every game he invariably seems to become frustrated. We have our really slow start, we fall behind, we have Carr start to appear more and more ragged and annoyed, then we have our drive or two where Carr tries to push it and gets away with some runs or a roll out pass, and finally we see things come apart as the other team takes advantage of David making bad decisions while seemingly trying to move the offense by sheer willpower.

It doesn't look like smart football at any point in the pattern.

The Preacher
09-20-2005, 10:48 AM
By the way all you Carr-haters...who leads the league in interceptions? *cough* Culpepper *cough*


His line is struggling and see what happens. It can make any qb look bad even an all pro so who knows how good carr can be? it might take a long while to find out hopefully he won't lose it.

SESupergenius
09-20-2005, 10:54 AM
And that's valid. If you're the Texans and you don't want to give Carr the freedom to call all of his own plays I completely understand that. The subset of plays he has to audible to though seems to me at least to be a little too constraining. There must be some kind of happy medium where Carr has room to create but he's guided by someone seeing the bigger picture upstairs.

Right now and in the past I have always felt that I was watching Carr do what he was told and in every game he invariably seems to become frustrated. We have our really slow start, we fall behind, we have Carr start to appear more and more ragged and annoyed, then we have our drive or two where Carr tries to push it and gets away with some runs or a roll out pass, and finally we see things come apart as the other team takes advantage of David making bad decisions while seemingly trying to move the offense by sheer willpower.

It doesn't look like smart football at any point in the pattern.The couple of sacks that Carr gave himself for running out of bounds to avoid the hit were to me not that big of a deal. Ok so they are considered sacks, but really it's not like the -13 or -11 yard sacks that he had no time to avoid. Carr hit a couple of recievers that just didn't perform, laid it right in their hands. Not to say that Carr didn't have his problems, but like last week when you are facing one of the strongest D's in the league, there are going to be turnovers, it's almost a given. I watched the offensive line a lot on Sunday and they should be ripped a huge one with the collapse of the pocket and constant in your face pressure. I can't count how many times Mckinney gets pushed back into Carr and Carr has to scramble. The wings are already closed off if he drops back and with Mckinney being pushed back that doesn't leave much for a passing lane, his vision is severely narrowed when the pocket is like that. Now that Palmer is gone we are slowly exposing what the real problems are. Sure you can get rid of Capers or even Carr for that matter but the problem will still be here.....we have no line. We can't even push anyone around using a Strong formation with 3 TE's. That was sad.

exclude
09-20-2005, 10:58 AM
..I can't count how many times Mckinney gets pushed back into Carr and Carr has to scramble. The wings are already closed off if he drops back and with Mckinney being pushed back that doesn't leave much for a passing lane, his vision is severely narrowed when the pocket is like that. Now that Palmer is gone we are slowly exposing what the real problems are. Sure you can get rid of Capers or even Carr for that matter but the problem will still be here.....we have no line. We can't even push anyone around using a Strong formation with 3 TE's. That was sad.

Casey Hampton used Mckinney like he was a tampon. It got so bad that I thought Mckinney look bloodied, until I realized that it was only part of the uniform. Mckinney sucks.... :embarrass

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 11:00 AM
But NOW . . . he doesn't. And the multi-million dollar question is . . . is it possible for him (or anyone for that matter) to get it back once you've lost it?

I've never heard of that happening. If you have . . . please enighten me.

Any QB that is put in a poor position to succeed will eventually perform to the level of the talent around him. What I see from Carr is the unwillingness to stand there and get pounded when he knows he can just take off and run it for at least a few yards and maybe dodge a hit or two. When Carr feels confident that his teammates will perform up to par, then he'll stop worrying about the hits and start playing QB. So yes, I think he can get it back. Whether he does or not remains to be seen and is as much a product of what coaching he and his teammates receive this year. Historically speaking, things like this have happened before. Plunkett was completely written off after playing on some horrid NE and SF teams in the '70s. Once he made it to a team that didn't suck, he stepped up and became the QB that everyone thought he could have been his entire career. Steve Young is a slightly different case, but after his success in the USFL, he lost favor in TB and was thought to not be the future of that franchise.

Realistically, Carr still has a chance to be the QB that the franchise hoped he could be, but as is the case with every player in the NFL, he has to be put in a position to succeed. Good coaches play to the strengths of their players and work to mitigate their weaknesses. Coming out of college, Carr's scouting report stated that he had a tendency to hold on to the ball too long (thanks to Vinny for posting that report). That can be construed as a competitor trying to make things happen, or it can be viewed as poor decision-making. The truth is, it all depends on the results, which in turn depend on the situation in which a player is placed. The team knew one of his weaknesses and they have done precious little to mitigate that weakness.

WildBlackBear32
09-20-2005, 11:12 AM
By the way all you Carr-haters...who leads the league in interceptions? *cough* Culpepper *cough*

Joey had a 5 INT game last week as well. However, people will never realize how terrible he is and will still whine and whine and whine about Carr around here.

infantrycak
09-20-2005, 12:13 PM
Suzie Kohlber, the cool sideline reporter for Monday Night Football, told Al and John upstairs that Eli's teammates were very confident in him this year, and she said (Gasp!) that Eli calls MOST of the plays himself.

There is a direct correlation to the success of Peyton, who calls most of his own plays, and the early success of Eli Manning who has his team at 2-0 in only his second year of being an NFL QB.

99.9% chance Kolber is wrong. Eli MAY call plays in the same fashion most NFL QB's do (which is not really at all, but with audible options). Peyton does not even call his own plays it has oftened been commented that Peyton is the only NFL QB with as much discretion as he has. Peyton receives 3 plays from the OC--generally 2 passing plays and one running play. Peyton tells all three to the offense then lines up and has to adjust at the LOS and designate which one they are actually going with, hence all the gesticulating. Most QB's including Carr have audible options but contrary to what Kolber is trying to sell that isn't the same as the QB calling the plays.

Hervoyel
09-20-2005, 12:46 PM
but contrary to what Kolber is trying to sell that isn't the same as the QB calling the plays.


Man what IS IT WITH YOU? You're messing up all my illusions about NFL quarterbacks!

Next you're going to tell me something crazy like Peyton doesn't create the plays right then and there by drawing them in the dirt.

infantrycak
09-20-2005, 01:44 PM
Some tell me what he did that was all that bad, on sunday?

Are you asking yourself?

wags
09-20-2005, 01:53 PM
Some tell me what he did that was all that bad, on sunday?

I like David, but his "pocket presence" was about as bad as it gets. That first fumble he had he just ran right into the dude. He also ran right into Polapolooza when DD tried to push him around. Carr made it way harder on himself than it really was.

Double Barrel
09-20-2005, 02:11 PM
99.9% chance Kolber is wrong. Eli MAY call plays in the same fashion most NFL QB's do (which is not really at all, but with audible options). Peyton does not even call his own plays it has oftened been commented that Peyton is the only NFL QB with as much discretion as he has. Peyton receives 3 plays from the OC--generally 2 passing plays and one running play. Peyton tells all three to the offense then lines up and has to adjust at the LOS and designate which one they are actually going with, hence all the gesticulating. Most QB's including Carr have audible options but contrary to what Kolber is trying to sell that isn't the same as the QB calling the plays.

Exactly. Good post. :thumbup

People act like it's true "because I saw it on TV!" :ok:

IMO, the team threw DC to the wolves in seasons 1 & 2. It doesn't take a football guru to realize that starting a rookie QB behind a completely unproven OL is probably not the smartest move. We should have let Banks get hit with all those sacks the first two years and saved our franchise QB for a team that has it together.

Personally, I think DC is shell shocked right now, and he is resorting to his instincts and tendencies from his college days. He's never had the chance to truly develop his NFL QB skills, as various aspects of the team have been poor to weak, at best.

I don't blame DC for this...as any QB thrown to the wolves would have suffered the same fate the first two years. This is a coaching/front office decision, IMHO. We might never realize the true potential of DC, after all the abuse he's taken for the past 3+ seasons. idonno:

Kaiser Toro
09-20-2005, 03:11 PM
I like David, but his "pocket presence" was about as bad as it gets. That first fumble he had he just ran right into the dude. He also ran right into Polapolooza when DD tried to push him around. Carr made it way harder on himself than it really was.

You hit it on the head. I belive it was two sacks by Pomamalu where he was coming from the left side of the line and DD blocked him to the outside. And where does David move? To the outside. His footwork is awful.

Maybe we need to send him to a honkey tonk in H Town and get his two step down.