PDA

View Full Version : If Capers goes....


HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 11:28 AM
What do we do with our defense?? They have invested 4 offseason trying to get the right players to run a 3-4. Do we hire another 3-4 guy or do we retool our defense and move to the 4-3? Here's to another 5 year plan!

PapaL
09-19-2005, 11:35 AM
We have the players for a 4-3. Walker, Payne, Smith, and TJ are all DT's. Babin, Peek, Anderson, someone else I'm missing are all DE's. And we have a we LB's, most notably Wong, Greenwood. Might need a few here and there, but DT looks to be strong.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 11:40 AM
with a 4-3 we would run...?
Peek and Babin at DE
Johnson, Walker and Smith at DT
Wong and Greenwood at OLB.
Who runs the defense?? who would we use at Middle Linebacker??

GP
09-19-2005, 11:43 AM
LCROD is right.

We have the d-linemen for a 4-3.

No more two-man rush on the QB.

That was just pathetic and dumb.

Yeah, the 3-4 is AWESOME!!!!

Oh, I forgot. "But other teams run it and are winning with it...."

Yeah, and THOSE teams have a great offense that keeps their defense rested, too. We don't. Gotta' have both to be effective.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 11:45 AM
I really do like the 3-4. We just havent executed it correctly. The 4-3 seems to be a little safer. allows more room for error and with our inexpierence we need as much room for error as possible.

PapaL
09-19-2005, 11:51 AM
Regardless we are more than a few players away. I think our d-line would be great. We would have tons of depth there, but our LB's wouldn't be all that. But thats why we have FA and the draft. On paper it would seem like we could pull off the switch, especially with a whole offseason to do it. Not like these guys havent played those positions before they got to Houston.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 11:54 AM
So would switching to a 4-3 change our draft philosophy? Would we want to go after an impact MLB in the first round and then take care of the O Line after that?? Impact MLB in Free agency?? hmmmm... well.. atleast im getting excited about Texans football again.

GP
09-19-2005, 11:54 AM
Yeah, but you're trying to convert the "pro 3-4" crowd that thinks it is soooooooo sacred and special.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree.

But the pro 3-4 crowd just won't have anything of it.

I haven't seen anything of the 3-4 that makes me get excited.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 11:57 AM
I'm a pro winning guy. I think most of the people that are pro 3-4 are that way because they believed in what Capers and Co. were telling us. We wanted to have faith in this organization. Now that a lot of faith is being lost, I'm willing to be a lot of those pro 3-4 guys will be willing to take a look at whatever our Front Office is willing to bring in... as long as we see results I dont care if we run a 10-1.

TigerV1
09-19-2005, 12:06 PM
as long as we see results I dont care if we run a 10-1.


That quote made my day. lol:

Vinny
09-19-2005, 12:08 PM
Yeah, but you're trying to convert the "pro 3-4" crowd that thinks it is soooooooo sacred and special.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree.

But the pro 3-4 crowd just won't have anything of it.

I haven't seen anything of the 3-4 that makes me get excited.I just saw it ran well yesterday. Too bad they were the team in black.

Huge
09-19-2005, 12:13 PM
Peek and Babin would get trucked on a consistent basis playing DE in a 4-3 scheme in this league.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 12:15 PM
both Peek and Babin are playing out of possition on our team right now. Both were DE's in college and I'm sure they wouldnt mind making the switch... again.

Vinny
09-19-2005, 12:17 PM
Peek and Babin would get trucked on a consistent basis playing DE in a 4-3 scheme in this league.Yep, they aren't full blown NFL DE's. They are labeled 'tweeners' for a reason.

HardKnockTexan
09-19-2005, 12:19 PM
I'm sure the Texans fitness coach wouldnt have too much trouble beefing those boys up a little so they can play down on the line.

Huge
09-19-2005, 12:28 PM
Fair enough. I'll just say that I'm not so sure.

TheOgre
09-19-2005, 12:31 PM
4-3 defense

DE's - Babin or Peek could possibly play an undersized RE but neither is big enough to play LE. We might pull over one of the DT's to play LE.
DT - We would have a lot of options with Walker, Johnson, Payne and Robaire Smith.
LB - Wong would probably play MLB not LLB in a 4-3, although he could play either. Greenwood be our RLB (weakside).

A scenario
LE - Gary Walker
LT - Robaire Smith
RT - Seth Payne/T. Johnson
RE - Jason Babin/Antwaan Peek
LLB - ? (perhaps someone not on our roster right now)
MLB - Kailee Wong
RLB - M. Greenwood

This isn't ideal personal for the DE and OLB slots, but it would probably be our initial one.

PapaL
09-19-2005, 02:38 PM
The 3-4, when properly run with the right personnel, is a very good Defense. The Steelers have been running it forever, drafting for it, and do very well with it. We've been running it 4 years and don’t really have the right people for it. IMO. I'm a 3-4 type guy, but it obviously isn't working here. We're some where in the middle. A few players either way and we would do well. It’s just easier to find players for a 4-3 than a 3-4. But yeah we would need a real 4-3 DE and LLB. We could use Babin and Peek as our rush ends on passing downs, no coverage responsibility.

J-Man
09-19-2005, 02:49 PM
The 3-4, when properly run with the right personnel, is a very good Defense. The Steelers have been running it forever, drafting for it, and do very well with it. We've been running it 4 years and donít really have the right people for it. IMO. I'm a 3-4 type guy, but it obviously isn't working here. We're some where in the middle. A few players either way and we would do well. Itís just easier to find players for a 4-3 than a 3-4. But yeah we would need a real 4-3 DE and LLB. We could use Babin and Peek as our rush ends on passing downs, no coverage responsibility.


Good point...the key there is that teams that have success with the 3-4 have been running it, drafting for it, and developing guys for many years...Steelers and Patriots are the case in point. It was mentioned during the game by the announcers that Cowher was asked about this very point and he said the absolute key is in drafting over time and being able to develop the players in the correct mold. I think we can ID 4 impact defensive players that we really missed the boat on (Sharper, Glenn, Foley, Posey). 3 of the 4 are starting and are significant players for playoff level teams.

PS...if we do switch to the 4-3 (which wouldn't hurt my feelings) then I highly recommend we do a double Ohio State dip with Hawk and Carpenter in the rounds 1 and 2. Heck...I would pick-up either one of those guys even if we don't switch to the 4-3.

PapaL
09-19-2005, 03:03 PM
Yeah Hawk is a baller. I wouldnt be mad if he wass our #1 pick. The thing about Pit and NE is that they always have young skilled guys replacing veterans. How quickly did Pit forget about Kevin Greene and Greg Loyd? Real fast. Posey seems to playing OLB very well, to bad its not for us.

ATX
09-19-2005, 03:09 PM
We're going to have to stay with the 3-4. If our defense is subpar now, switching to a 4-3 would make it worse for awhile. Then what do we do with guys like Babin, Peek, and Anderson all DEs in college converted to OLB for the 3-4. Either way, Pburnt is still going to get burned and thrown at all season until he can make a play. How many passes and TDs has Buchanon given up in 2 games?

PapaL
09-19-2005, 03:13 PM
They would play DE and some OLB. Subpar now - couldnt be much worse if we switched. Not that I think its going to happen anytime soon.

Scooter
09-19-2005, 03:26 PM
i think our personnel better fits the 4-3, with the exception of LB depth. peek & babin are pass rushers, they're just undersized. 10-15lbs in the offseason puts them at the same size as kearse, freeney, rice, taylor, etc. wong & greenwood are flexable, they'll fit in either scheme. the biggest advantage IMO would be sliding gary walker to the LE spot where he's going to see a lot more one on ones and payne still ties up 2 blockers. sign a big name LB and/or CB in the offseason and draft BPA.

Meloy
09-19-2005, 03:46 PM
I've been a 3-4 or 46 defense since the Oilers. Keep in mind that Walker went out and Smith did for a while. Our line backers have been shuffled around and I do expect a huge improvement from those guys after the bye. I am much more concerned about Buchanan at the corner. If we had any kind of offense, we would have been in the first 2 games.

Bubbajwp
09-20-2005, 04:08 PM
Good point...the key there is that teams that have success with the 3-4 have been running it, drafting for it, and developing guys for many years...Steelers and Patriots are the case in point. It was mentioned during the game by the announcers that Cowher was asked about this very point and he said the absolute key is in drafting over time and being able to develop the players in the correct mold. I think we can ID 4 impact defensive players that we really missed the boat on (Sharper, Glenn, Foley, Posey). 3 of the 4 are starting and are significant players for playoff level teams.

PS...if we do switch to the 4-3 (which wouldn't hurt my feelings) then I highly recommend we do a double Ohio State dip with Hawk and Carpenter in the rounds 1 and 2. Heck...I would pick-up either one of those guys even if we don't switch to the 4-3.
I would absolutly love it if we got Hawk. I dont know were in the first round he will be taken but I would realy like for us to pick the best LT we can get with our pick. Then trade back into the first and prey for Hawk. Hawk can play ILB or OLB in my defense any day. I can dream cant I

throwANDREtheBALL
09-20-2005, 04:24 PM
what's all this, it takes 4-5 years to get a good 3-4 defense in place ?

San Diego did it very well last year, and Dallas has switched to it and used it well this year.

Here's the obvious point. Capers' 3-4 scheme is inferior to the other 3-4 defenses in the league. Its a FACT. He doesn't attack very much at all, and consistenly relies on minimal guys rushing the passer.

Another obvious point. Casserly is not good at getting the right players to fit the 3-4. San Diego switched well in one year, Dallas looks pretty good in their 3-4. HOUSTON has never gotten a pass-rush from their version of 3-4 in 3 years. Dallas went out and got Spears, Canty, Ware in the last draft. And they all seem to be great picks already. Casserly had a 3 year head start on drafting for the 3-4 and he's failed miserably.

eriadoc
09-20-2005, 04:33 PM
what's all this, it takes 4-5 years to get a good 3-4 defense in place ?

San Diego did it very well last year, and Dallas has switched to it and used it well this year.

Here's the obvious point. Capers' 3-4 scheme is inferior to the other 3-4 defenses in the league. Its a FACT. He doesn't attack very much at all, and consistenly relies on minimal guys rushing the passer.

Another obvious point. Casserly is not good at getting the right players to fit the 3-4. San Diego switched well in one year, Dallas looks pretty good in their 3-4. HOUSTON has never gotten a pass-rush from their version of 3-4 in 3 years. Dallas went out and got Spears, Canty, Ware in the last draft. And they all seem to be great picks already. Casserly had a 3 year head start on drafting for the 3-4 and he's failed miserably.

Some good points here, and really they are the reason I am not in favor of switching to a 4-3. We have the personnel here to run a 3-4 much better than we have it for a 4-3. Freeney, Peppers, Jason Taylor, etc. don't come along every day. Our problem is not the 3-4. Plenty of teams utilize it very effectively. Our problem is talent evaluation, development, scheme, and coaching adjustments. So rather than fix the wrong problem (by switching to 4-3), I say go right to the root. For the record, I don't really care which defense we use, as long as we get pressure on the QB. I just think we currently are better positioned to do so with the scheme we have in place, if properly run.

Bubbajwp
09-20-2005, 04:38 PM
I wish we would blitz with our safetys more.

J-Man
09-22-2005, 09:18 AM
Don't get me wrong, the 3-4 is fine...if you can support it with your talent level. The biggest thing that bothers me is that you get pigeon holed into they type of guys you need which will lead you to bypass better athletes.

I think linebacker might be the best example; I you are forced to look at undersized DEs in the draft to fill your OLB role. I happen to think that you should take some good looks at plain old LBs of any stripe with the knowledge that it is easier to get a guy to add 10-15lbs than to teach him how to drop into coverage.

When you have the right personnel the 3-4 is clearly an effective platform to pressure the QB from, it's just building that personnel base.

BigBull17
09-22-2005, 06:02 PM
If we used more blitz packages we wuldnt have a pressure problem. Dom just is to gutless to allow blitzing and you get picked apart.

SESupergenius
09-22-2005, 06:20 PM
I can't believe anyone is serious about switching to a 4-3 and it being the savior for our defensive woes. This is sad.