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BuffSoldier
09-18-2005, 03:54 PM
We drafted Travis Johnson, who in 2 games hasnt made one tackle. We could have had DJ, who every boby wanted but no. Most people thought the DJ fans were stupid, thinking that he could never fall to us, but now I think the coaching staff is stupid for passing up opportunity when it knocked.

I personally would rather have drafted Matt Jones. He would at least start.

platnumdelgado
09-18-2005, 04:13 PM
Lets give the coaching staff a little credit for drafting. They got Davis in the 4th round and he's better than alot of first round backs in the league. D-Rob should have been defensive rookie of the year and Andre is a top 10 reciever (If they pass more to him) in the league. If Carr is protected he's very good. About Travis Johnson, It's only been two games. Let's give him a little bit more time.

Fletch
09-18-2005, 04:17 PM
Our front office is ran by morons. Our OL has been deplorable every season, yet they make no serious additions. For that alone Cass should be canned.

We run a 3-4, where LB's are the key to your sucess and we pass on DJ, to sign a one year wonder who had character issues.

We take a FLA reciever with the first pick of the second round despite the fact that ANY goon with a clue knows Fla Wr's were propped up by Spurriers system. We could have had Clinton Portis with that pick.

Pitts, Wand, Joppru, Gafney, TJ....

What about free agency? We let our heart and soul go (Sharper and Glenn), do nothing to replace the LB's (Foreman included) except cross our fingers Babin and Peek would finally get a clue... and we get a knucklehead without a positive track record to replace an pro's pro who's been amoungst the best at his position for years.

Adios casserly...

platnumdelgado
09-18-2005, 04:23 PM
What do you think we should do with him? I personally want to trade him for something, maybe Aaron Glenn. I know they won't because they want more "speed" on the field. Just something, he's horrible. We got riped off in that trade.

Fletch
09-18-2005, 04:24 PM
Lets give the coaching staff a little credit for drafting. They got Davis in the 4th round and he's better than alot of first round backs in the league. D-Rob should have been defensive rookie of the year and Andre is a top 10 reciever (If they pass more to him) in the league. If Carr is protected he's very good. About Travis Johnson, It's only been two games. Let's give him a little bit more time.


For one, Carr is no lock to be considered a good pick. It could go either way. TJ was a moron pick from the jump.

Andre and D-rob are legit, but is battin .500 in top 15 picks really something to be proud of? Anyone who follows college ball could hit 50-50 with a pick that high.

Our second round and beyond is whats truly deplorable. And even DDavis isnt enough to overlook that fact. Gaffney, Babin, Pitts, Wand, Joppru?

ROYDESTROY
09-18-2005, 05:34 PM
For one, Carr is no lock to be considered a good pick. It could go either way. TJ was a moron pick from the jump.

Andre and D-rob are legit, but is battin .500 in top 15 picks really something to be proud of? Anyone who follows college ball could hit 50-50 with a pick that high.

Our second round and beyond is whats truly deplorable. And even DDavis isnt enough to overlook that fact. Gaffney, Babin, Pitts, Wand, Joppru?

Great post..very thoughtful analysis..they have done a poor job overall and have not used the good young talent properly

Lucky
09-18-2005, 05:48 PM
Our second round and beyond is whats truly deplorable. And even DDavis isnt enough to overlook that fact. Gaffney, Babin, Pitts, Wand, Joppru?
Just for the record, Babin was a 1st rounder, Wand was taken in the 3rd.

bigcarlos
09-18-2005, 06:16 PM
Hopefully we draft the right person in the upcoming draft, since we will have the first pick :embarrass

infantrycak
09-18-2005, 06:34 PM
We drafted Travis Johnson, who in 2 games hasnt made one tackle.

Well, since your first sentence is wrong, let's just put everything else down as wrong as well.

texan279
09-18-2005, 06:38 PM
We drafted Travis Johnson, who in 2 games hasnt made one tackle. We could have had DJ, who every boby wanted but no. Most people thought the DJ fans were stupid, thinking that he could never fall to us, but now I think the coaching staff is stupid for passing up opportunity when it knocked.

TJ was one of the only ones I saw getting any pressure on Ben, though I didn't watch much of the 4th quarter...It has been said on this board a million times, linemen in the 3-4 are supposed to tie up blockers, not get loads of sacks and tackles...

mes311
09-18-2005, 07:36 PM
Hopefully we draft the right person in the upcoming draft, since we will have the first pick :embarrass

These teams are 0-2 as well: Green Bay, Minnesota, San Diego, Arizona, and Baltimore. The only team that has really looked much better than us is San Diego.

rmartin65
09-18-2005, 07:38 PM
These teams are 0-2 as well: Green Bay, Minnesota, San Diego, Arizona, and Baltimore. The only team that has really looked much better than us is San Diego.
the vikes are not that hot either.

Keldar
09-18-2005, 07:48 PM
Can we please stop the DJ worship????? The dude was an excellent college player, he has looked decent so far. I personally think he will not amount to much in the NFL, but that is my personal opinion that could end up being wrong.

Nevertheless, the endless pining over the softy is sickening!!! He does not play for us, and will not play for us during the current regime. :brickwall

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 07:55 PM
Can we please stop the DJ worship????? The dude was an excellent college player, he has looked decent so far. I personally think he will not amount to much in the NFL, but that is my personal opinion that could end up being wrong.

Nevertheless, the endless pining over the softy is sickening!!! He does not play for us, and will not play for us during the current regime. :brickwall


just decent? 9 tackles a sack and a forced fumble?

You realize what the stat line was for Babin this week? 0 tackles 0 sacks 0 forced fumbles.

He has outperformed our entire LB crew in only 1 game.


AND EVERYONE SAW IT COMING

RTP2110
09-18-2005, 07:56 PM
Why all the negtavity on Pitts? The guy was a 3rd round pick, and has played every offensive snap in the history of the team.

Keldar
09-18-2005, 07:57 PM
just decent? 9 tackles a sack and a forced fumble?

You realize what the stat line was for Babin this week? 0 tackles 0 sacks 0 forced fumbles.

He has outperformed our entire LB crew in only 1 game.

I think that speaks more to how bad our guys stink, rather than DJ to Pro Bowl.

texan279
09-18-2005, 07:59 PM
Yeah, everyone saw it coming, everyone can predict the future I guess...You guys see DJ putting up stats and now everyone is here saying "I said it all along we should have drafted DJ." I bet you wouldn't be saying this now if DJ hadn't done anything yet. Well where were all of you in the preseason when DJ had 1 tackle I think...Gimme a break, I guess all of you should be NFL GM's...Uh oh, DJ just recovered a fumble in the Chiefs game, I guess that makes him God now...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:02 PM
DJ just recovered a fumble. Half a quarter in.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:03 PM
Yeah, everyone saw it coming, everyone can predict the future I guess...You guys see DJ putting up stats and now everyone is here saying "I said it all along we should have drafted DJ." I bet you wouldn't be saying this now if DJ hadn't done anything yet. Well where were all of you in the preseason when DJ had 1 tackle I think...Gimme a break, I guess all of you should be NFL GM's...

you must be kidding me, anyone that watched this guy in college knew he was a cant miss prospect.

A GREAT character guy, a leader, a physical specimen, a nose for the ball. Man what a risky pick!

If being able to recognize a talent like him is hard, then jesus they must not watch them play.

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:03 PM
Guess he is a lock for the Pro Bowl now...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:04 PM
Guess he is a lock for the Pro Bowl now...

Luckily for him, our Warren Sapp Jr that we drafted will be opening holes for him in the pro bowl...orrrr not.

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:05 PM
you must be kidding me, anyone that watched this guy in college knew he was a cant miss prospect.

A GREAT character guy, a leader, a physical specimen, a nose for the ball. Man what a risky pick!

If being able to recognize a talent like him is hard, then jesus they must not watch them play.

Then why are you here pushing this now, why not the day of the draft?

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:06 PM
Luckily for him, our Warren Sapp Jr that we drafted will be opening holes for him in the pro bowl...orrrr not.

You guys are hilarious...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:06 PM
You guys are hilarious...


And realists!

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:08 PM
Then why are you here pushing this now, why not the day of the draft?


because i didnt think there was a possibility he would fall to us. And when he did I damn near flipped out when they traded the pick.

I heard that nearly everyone at reliant booed and left when they heard the texans passed on DJ.



And I still dont understand this one thing, How is a guy whos job it is just to plug up a hole more important than a playmaker at LB? cant you just get a big guy in like the 3rd round and tell him to go to this hole and stand there?

There are sooooooo many more guys like travis johnson than there are guys like DJ/

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:10 PM
And I still dont understand this one thing, How is a guy whos job it is just to plug up a hole more important than a playmaker at LB? cant you just get a big guy in like the 3rd round and tell him to go to this hole and stand there?

Because if there is no one there to plug holes, LB's don't get a chance to be a playmaker...And no you cannot just get any big guy and tell him to stand there...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:13 PM
Because if there is no one there to plug holes, LB's don't get a chance to be a playmaker...And no you cannot just get any big guy and tell him to stand there...


And this is why we re-signed Payne, no? We had our fat man to clog the hole from the get go. We didn't have an impact linebacker. Unless for some odd reason, you had stock in Peek/Babin

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:14 PM
And this is why we re-signed Payne, no? We had our fat man to clog the hole from the get go. We didn't have an impact linebacker. Unless for some odd reason, you had stock in Peek/Babin

Remember the problem we had with injuries on the D line not too long ago?

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:15 PM
Because if there is no one there to plug holes, LB's don't get a chance to be a playmaker...And no you cannot just get any big guy and tell him to stand there...


ok, so why arent our LB's making plays?

because its not that simple, Playmakers are needed at LB much more than at DT. which is why this was so stupid, Johnson is never going to have the type of impact DJ will, even at his best his position just isnt as valuable as a LB.

And why is it do you think that not many DT's get taken early on? Because they arent as valuable as a playmaker at a position like CB or LB

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:17 PM
Remember the problem we had with injuries on the D line not too long ago?

We also had two aging overpaid linebackers we needed to get rid of. Problem one and Problem two. The difference is problem two had a solution with a proven(in college) impact player who came from the Texans backyard and problem one had an inconsistent hothead who had ONE good year in college.

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:22 PM
because its not that simple, Playmakers are needed at LB much more than at DT. which is why this was so stupid, Johnson is never going to have the type of impact DJ will, even at his best his position just isnt as valuable as a LB.

Yeah you're right, lineman is not an important position... :tv:

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:25 PM
yeah we can have a guy that did this in college: 175 tackles (76 solo) with 10 sacks for minus-63 yards, 43 stops for losses of 127 yards, 31 quarterback pressures, four fumble recoveries, six forced fumbles and three pass deflections while starting 21 of 51 games.

or this 40 starts in 50 games. He recorded 458 tackles (281 solo) with 10 sacks for minus-58 yards, 65 stops for losses of 170 yards and 39 quarterback pressures. added five fumble recoveries, 11 forced fumbles, nine interceptions for 195 yards in returns (one for a touchdown), 30 pass deflections and a blocked kick

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:27 PM
Yeah you're right, lineman is not an important position... :tv:


get off your high horse, a DT in a 3-4 is not as valuable as a playmaking speedy LB (notice the playmaking part). basically all u need is a big strong body

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:28 PM
yeah we can have a guy that did this in college: 175 tackles (76 solo) with 10 sacks for minus-63 yards, 43 stops for losses of 127 yards, 31 quarterback pressures, four fumble recoveries, six forced fumbles and three pass deflections while starting 21 of 51 games.

or this 40 starts in 50 games. He recorded 458 tackles (281 solo) with 10 sacks for minus-58 yards, 65 stops for losses of 170 yards and 39 quarterback pressures. added five fumble recoveries, 11 forced fumbles, nine interceptions for 195 yards in returns (one for a touchdown), 30 pass deflections and a blocked kick

Whose stats are those?

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:30 PM
get off your high horse, a DT in a 3-4 is not as valuable as a playmaking speedy LB (notice the playmaking part). basically all u need is a big strong body

My high horse? You want a speedy flashy playmaker over a big guy who battles in the trenches, all you wanna see is flash and stats...

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:30 PM
And why is it do you think that not many DT's get taken early on? Because they arent as valuable as a playmaker at a position like CB or LB
18 DT's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.

6 OLB's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.

tsip
09-18-2005, 08:31 PM
These teams are 0-2 as well: Green Bay, Minnesota, San Diego, Arizona, and Baltimore. The only team that has really looked much better than us is San Diego.

...so, what's the point?

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:33 PM
18 DT's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.

6 OLB's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.

thats pretty skewed. saying OLB's only, how many NOSE TACKLES have been taken in the 1st round lately?

and DJ could play inside in a 3-4, so might as well count ILB's too

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:34 PM
18 DT's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.

6 OLB's taken in the first round over the last five drafts.
BTW, that list doesn't include DT's that were taken as NT's (Casey Hampton and Ryan Pickett).

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:34 PM
My high horse? You want a speedy flashy playmaker over a big guy who battles in the trenches, all you wanna see is flash and stats...


I want results, something we have never had. We have never had a playmaker not at CB. so what do we do? get another non-playmaker.

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:35 PM
My high horse? You want a speedy flashy playmaker over a big guy who battles in the trenches, all you wanna see is flash and stats...

I may not be able to answer for him, but I'd SURE AS HELL would want a player who creates turnovers and gets a lot of tackles over a player who "battles in the trenches" ANY DAY. Not to mention all the publicity and merch money DJ could have brought in with UT fans and jersey sales.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:37 PM
BTW, that list doesn't include DT's that were taken as NT's (Casey Hampton and Ryan Pickett).


and how many of those DT's went to 3-4 defenses?

why try and argue something that is common sense. The guy isnt even there to make tackles, how could his value be equal to someone that tackles, sacks, forces fumbles, blocks kicks, intercepts passes.... Not only does he do that, but DJ does it at a level above most of the olb's in the league.

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:37 PM
thats pretty skewed. saying OLB's only, how many NOSE TACKLES have been taken in the 1st round lately?

and DJ could play inside in a 3-4, so might as well count ILB's too
Okay, let's include DT's as well as NT's and then include ALL LBs postions...

20 DT's and NT's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

7 ILB and OLB's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you'd like to include guys like Demarcus Ware (college DE's that projected as OLBs), then your case would look a little better.

But it's still a slam dunk against your argument. You can continue to debate it if you'd like. But you're going to lose and lose bad.

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:37 PM
I may not be able to answer for him, but I'd SURE AS HELL would want a player who creates turnovers and gets a lot of tackles over a player who "battles in the trenches" ANY DAY. Not to mention all the publicity and merch money DJ could have brought in with UT fans and jersey sales.


You guys are not getting it. YOU CANNOT COMPARE WHAT A LINEMAN DOES TO WHAT A LB DOES. YOU CANNOT COMPARE STATS BETWEEN A LB AND A LINEMAN.

Wolf
09-18-2005, 08:40 PM
You guys are not getting it. YOU CANNOT COMPARE WHAT A LINEMAN DOES TO WHAT A LB DOES. YOU CANNOT COMPARE STATS BETWEEN A LB AND A LINEMAN.

exactly they are hand in hand. What good would DJ do when we has to take on tackles or guards 4 yards past the line of scrimmage.? Isn't that what happened to our ILB's last year? We are still in the boat. We just don't have the depth/talent yet.

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:41 PM
You guys are not getting it. YOU CANNOT COMPARE WHAT A LINEMAN DOES TO WHAT A LB DOES. YOU CANNOT COMPARE STATS BETWEEN A LB AND A LINEMAN.

However, TURNOVERS WIN GAMES. WINNING GAMES WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. AN OLB WHO HAS ALREADY PROVEN(yes I did just say DJ is proven...sack, FF in game 1 and now a FR in half of game two) THAT HE HAS HAD AN IMPACT IN THIS LEAGUE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN A GUY WHO "battles in the trenches".

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:42 PM
and how many of those DT's went to 3-4 defenses?

why try and argue something that is common sense. The guy isnt even there to make tackles, how could his value be equal to someone that tackles, sacks, forces fumbles, blocks kicks, intercepts passes.... Not only does he do that, but DJ does it at a level above most of the olb's in the league.
So we should just base a player's value on his stats? How much value would you place on offensive lineman?

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:43 PM
exactly they are hand in hand. What good would DJ do when we has to take on tackles or guards 4 yards past the line of scrimmage.? Isn't that what happened to our ILB's last year? We are still in the boat. We just don't have the depth/talent yet.

We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. IF Seth Payne would have gotten hurt, we would have had a problem. HOWEVER, you can't play on "ifs". Not to mention, Payne has been VERY durable over the course of his career, minus 2003.

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:43 PM
However, TURNOVERS WIN GAMES. WINNING GAMES WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. AN OLB WHO HAS ALREADY PROVEN(yes I did just say DJ is proven...sack, FF in game 1 and now a FR in half of game two) THAT HE HAS HAD AN IMPACT IN THIS LEAGUE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN A GUY WHO "battles in the trenches".
The fumble that DJ recovered tonight was caused by a defensive lineman.


Carry on...

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:43 PM
However, TURNOVERS WIN GAMES. WINNING GAMES WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. AN OLB WHO HAS ALREADY PROVEN(yes I did just say DJ is proven...sack, FF in game 1 and now a FR in half of game two) THAT HE HAS HAD AN IMPACT IN THIS LEAGUE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN A GUY WHO "battles in the trenches".

He is "proven" after one game? :tv:

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:44 PM
The fumble that DJ recovered tonight was caused by a defensive lineman.


Carry on...

They keep lobbing 'em up there and Huge keeps knocking 'em out of the park... :yahoo:

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:45 PM
The fumble that DJ recovered tonight was caused by a defensive lineman.


Carry on...


Oh, my mistake. I forgot that the person causing the fumble is far more important than the one recovering it. Since you know, as soon as the ball is fumbled, the defense automatically gets it, right?

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:46 PM
Can a fumble be recovered if it's not caused?

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:46 PM
He is "proven" after one game? :tv:


Oh no. I take it all back. Our man who battles in the trenches is far more valuable than DJ. I need to take off my homer glasses. Wait...

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:47 PM
Oh, my mistake. I forgot that the person causing the fumble is far more important than the one recovering it. Since you know, as soon as the ball is fumbled, the defense automatically gets it, right?

Ummmm, yes the person who causes the fumble is more important, if he does not cause the fumble there is no fumble to recover...since you know if there is no fumble the offense keeps possession, right?

Wolf
09-18-2005, 08:47 PM
We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. We had Seth Payne. IF Seth Payne would have gotten hurt, we would have had a problem. HOWEVER, you can't play on "ifs". Not to mention, Payne has been VERY durable over the course of his career, minus 2003.

exactly.. no depth on our DL.. you think DJ could take on the OL?

Kc runs a 4-3 and not a 3-4 . DJ gets a little more freedom over there

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:47 PM
Can a fumble be recovered if it's not caused?

Can a turnover be created if a fumble is not recovered??? Common sense, think here. You can force 100000 fumbles and if you dont recover a single one it dont mean ****.

texan279
09-18-2005, 08:48 PM
If you dont force 100000 fumbles there is no chance to recover a fumble

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:49 PM
exactly.. no depth on our DL.. you think DJ could take on the OL?

Kc runs a 4-3 and not a 3-4 . DJ gets a little more freedom over there


or we could have no depth at LB and have teams just run all over us.

Which is worse?

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:49 PM
Can a turnover be created if a fumble is not recovered??? Common sense, think here. You can force 100000 fumbles and if you dont recover a single one it dont mean ****.
Dude, you should really quit.

Wolf
09-18-2005, 08:49 PM
Can a turnover be created if a fumble is not recovered??? Common sense, think here. You can force 100000 fumbles and if you dont recover a single one it dont mean ****.

too funny
you have to create the opportunity (i.e force the fumble) before you can have the turnover.

Lots of times the turnover is right place right time.

Wolf
09-18-2005, 08:50 PM
or we could have no depth at LB and have teams just run all over us.

Which is worse?


exactly on my other post.. they go hand in hand

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:51 PM
too funny
you have to create the opportunity (i.e force the fumble) before you can have the turnover.

Lots of times the turnover is right place right time.

Don't have to force anything. A player can just have the ball clear slip out of their hands.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 08:52 PM
Okay, let's include DT's as well as NT's and then include ALL LBs postions...

20 DT's and NT's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

7 ILB and OLB's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you'd like to include guys like Demarcus Ware (college DE's that projected as OLBs), then your case would look a little better.

But it's still a slam dunk against your argument. You can continue to debate it if you'd like. But you're going to lose and lose bad.

of course you consider guys like Ware, he was drafted to play LINEBACKER!

does Matt Jones count as a QB drafted in the 1st round? thats how stupid your assumption is.


now tell me, Is a guy like Lavar Arrington or Julian Peterson less valuable than pat williams?

surely they must be the product of a good DT, if one wasnt there they couldnt make plays!

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Dude, you should really quit.

I'll break this down for ya. In case it slipped your mind or something.

Fumbles do NOT have to be FORCED to be lost. The ball wiggles free, a player sees a ghost and drops it, whatever. Fumbles DO have to be recovered to be TURNOVERS.

Got it?

Huge
09-18-2005, 08:59 PM
Don't have to force anything. A player can just have the ball clear slip out of their hands.
Dude, really...it's getting bad.

of course you consider guys like Ware, he was drafted to play LINEBACKER!

does Matt Jones count as a QB drafted in the 1st round? thats how stupid your assumption is.


now tell me, Is a guy like Lavar Arrington or Julian Peterson less valuable than pat williams?

surely they must be the product of a good DT, if one wasnt there they couldnt make plays!
My assumption was stupid? I will venture to guess that you are assuming LBs are more valuable than DT's simply based on this statement...

And why is it do you think that not many DT's get taken early on? Because they arent as valuable as a playmaker at a position like CB or LB

Would you agree?

And now that I've shown that statement to be completely false, do you still believe LBs have more value than DT's (again, simply based on your very own statement)?

If you disagree, then admit your initial comment was off base.

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:00 PM
Dude, really...it's getting bad.


It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.

Huge
09-18-2005, 09:01 PM
I'll break this down for ya. In case it slipped your mind or something.

Fumbles do NOT have to be FORCED to be lost. The ball wiggles free, a player sees a ghost and drops it, whatever. Fumbles DO have to be recovered to be TURNOVERS.

Got it?
I see now.

The Texans should invest in players that are around when balls mysteriously pop out of the offensive players hands.

What the hell was I thinking?

Seriously, you should take my previous advice.

texasguy346
09-18-2005, 09:02 PM
It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.

I'm not sure how you're proving him wrong. He was simply pointing out a specific example of a DLineman forcing a fumble that DJ recovered. Without the DLineman DJ doesn't get THAT fumble, and without DJ it isn't a turnover.

texan279
09-18-2005, 09:04 PM
Yeah I am about to say good night to this thread lol. These two are not getting it...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:04 PM
I see now.

The Texans should invest in players that are around when balls mysteriously pop out of the offensive players hands.

What the hell was I thinking?

Seriously, you should take my previous advice.

No, ok you are right. They should take players whos sole purpose on the team is to take on blocks(even though we had a player doing this...). Who needs tackles, fumble recoveries, INTs, Sacks when you have a guy who can take on blocks! My frame of mind is clearly a skew.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 09:04 PM
Okay, let's include DT's as well as NT's and then include ALL LBs postions...

20 DT's and NT's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

7 ILB and OLB's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you'd like to include guys like Demarcus Ware (college DE's that projected as OLBs), then your case would look a little better.

But it's still a slam dunk against your argument. You can continue to debate it if you'd like. But you're going to lose and lose bad.

just this past year, we had Demarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, David Pollack, Derrick Johnson all being drafted in the top 17.

Then at DT we have Travis Johnson at 16, castillo at 28 and patterson at 31.

the year before we had 3 DT's taken in the middle 1st(tommy harris, vince wilfork, marcus tubbs), with 2 olb's taken in the mid-late 1st(d.j. williams, our own pride and joy babin) with 5 more olbs going in the second round comapred to 2 dt's.



Are you really so inept as to think a big NT like Seth Payne is as valuable as a great OLB? He occupys 1 blocker maybe 2 sometimes, but our lbs dont make plays.

We could have him occupy 1 maybe 2 sometimes, and have DJ make plays.

one was a need, one was for depth. We arent good enough to draft for depth yet, we need quality starters first.

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:05 PM
I'm not sure how you're proving him wrong. He was simply pointing out a specific example of a DLineman forcing a fumble that DJ recovered. Without the DLineman DJ doesn't get THAT fumble, and without DJ it isn't a turnover.

No doubt. The debate then became fumble recoveries over forced fumbles. I honestly can't see anyone who has an OUNCE of football knowledge will take Forced Fumbles over Fumble recoveries. Thats like taking pass deflections over interceptions.

texan279
09-18-2005, 09:09 PM
No one said they would take FF over recovered fumbles, we were just stating that without FF, you don't get a fumble recovery.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 09:09 PM
Yeah I am about to say good night to this thread lol. These two are not getting it...


See thats the thing, why is it us not getting it?

I played football, infact, i was a LB that got stuck at NT and my job was to get past the slow fat center and sack the qb.

Thats not even a 3-4 guys job, his job is just to BE ther and take up space. The quality of play between the best at NT and the medium guys like Payne isnt a big gap.

But look at the gap between a guy like Peek, and a guy like Takeo Spikes.



but yet, I just dont get it do I?

Huge
09-18-2005, 09:09 PM
It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.
Okay, I can see you're a bit too stubborn to listen.

Get your textbook out, kid...

First you tried to validate DJ's greatness with this:

However, TURNOVERS WIN GAMES. WINNING GAMES WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. AN OLB WHO HAS ALREADY PROVEN(yes I did just say DJ is proven...sack, FF in game 1 and now a FR in half of game two) THAT HE HAS HAD AN IMPACT IN THIS LEAGUE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN A GUY WHO "battles in the trenches".
Now, your point about balls mysteriously popping out of the carrier's hands (for reasons such as ghosts and what not), would hold water (can't believe I just said that) if that happened in this case.

Clearly it did not as the fumble was caused by a defensive linemen.

You then followed that up with this gem...

Oh, my mistake. I forgot that the person causing the fumble is far more important than the one recovering it. Since you know, as soon as the ball is fumbled, the defense automatically gets it, right?
Now read slowly:

If there's not somebody that causes the fumblem then there is nobody to recover it (Hint: Because there is no fumble to recover).

So you tell me, which one is more important:

A. The guy that causes the fumble
B. The guy that recovers the fumble

Another hint: "A" can exist without "B". "B" cannot exist without "A".

Is this getting clearer? I'll slow down if need be...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:10 PM
No one said the would take FF over recovered fumbles, we were just stating that without FF, you don't get a fumble recovery.


So which defensive player forces the fumble when a RB clearly drops the ball with no defender within 5 yards of him? You know, like Jordan already did in the Raiders game?

texan279
09-18-2005, 09:12 PM
I played football, infact, i was a LB that got stuck at NT and my job was to get past the slow fat center and sack the qb.

Thats not even a 3-4 guys job, his job is just to BE ther and take up space. The quality of play between the best at NT and the medium guys like Payne isnt a big gap.

But look at the gap between a guy like Peek, and a guy like Takeo Spikes.



but yet, I just dont get it do I?

If you were a LB who got switched to NT you must be talking about Pee Wee of junior high football, and I do not mean to offend when saying that. I played football too from age 5 to age 22, so yeah I know a little something about it too...

texan279
09-18-2005, 09:13 PM
So which defensive player forces the fumble when a RB clearly drops the ball with no defender within 5 yards of him? You know, like Jordan already did in the Raiders game?

Honestly, how often does that happen? Most NFL RB's do not have a habit of just dropping because if they did the would be playing Canadian Arena football...

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:15 PM
Honestly, how often does that happen?

I don't know, but I got Tiki Barber circa 2000-2003. on the phone and he says quite often.

texasguy346
09-18-2005, 09:16 PM
No doubt. The debate then became fumble recoveries over forced fumbles. I honestly can't see anyone who has an OUNCE of football knowledge will take Forced Fumbles over Fumble recoveries. Thats like taking pass deflections over interceptions.

I'm not sure where you're going here, but I don't see how you can put a value on a stat without relating it to a particular play in a particular game it came in.

For instance a good corner can get 20 to 30 pass deflections a season, and maybe 7 or 8 INTs. If 10 of those pass deflections came on 4th down wouldn't that be 10 forced changes of possessions? That'd be better than 7 or 8 turn overs right?

Similarly a forced fumble on 3rd or 4th down could kill a drive or force a change of possession. Also, a the value of a sack or pressure also would depend on the particular play it occured in a particular game. A sack on 1st down wouldn't be nearly as valuable as a pressure that forced an INT in the red zone...right?

The point being that stats are great but don't say everything about a game. Keep in mind that if stats meant everything then Jay Foreman would've been a very good starting LB since he recorded lots of tackles albeit 5 yards from the LOS.

texan279
09-18-2005, 09:18 PM
I don't know, but I got Tiki Barber circa 2000-2003. on the phone and he says quite often.

You had to go back 2 years to find a player who frequently dropped the ball...

Huge
09-18-2005, 09:29 PM
just this past year, we had Demarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, David Pollack, Derrick Johnson all being drafted in the top 17.

Then at DT we have Travis Johnson at 16, castillo at 28 and patterson at 31.

the year before we had 3 DT's taken in the middle 1st(tommy harris, vince wilfork, marcus tubbs), with 2 olb's taken in the mid-late 1st(d.j. williams, our own pride and joy babin) with 5 more olbs going in the second round comapred to 2 dt's.

Are you really so inept as to think a big NT like Seth Payne is as valuable as a great OLB? He occupys 1 blocker maybe 2 sometimes, but our lbs dont make plays.

We could have him occupy 1 maybe 2 sometimes, and have DJ make plays.

one was a need, one was for depth. We arent good enough to draft for depth yet, we need quality starters first.
I'll give you the best example I got and if that doesn't make it clear enough for you, then there's nothing else I can do:

Pittsburgh Steelers' (a team that knows a little about the 3-4) 2001 Draft:

First Round - Casey Hampton (NT)
Second Round - Kendrell Bell (ILB)

And you can add in all the Ware's, Babin's, etc. that you want and it still won't add up to more LBs being taken in the first round than DT's/NT's.

It's simple math. Simple enough that somebody as inept as I am can understand.

WildBlackBear32
09-18-2005, 09:31 PM
You had to go back 2 years to find a player who frequently dropped the ball...

Coulda said Ahman Green, but I like to pick on Tiki more.

Panther5407
09-18-2005, 09:31 PM
Can a turnover be created if a fumble is not recovered??? Common sense, think here. You can force 100000 fumbles and if you dont recover a single one it dont mean ****.

This really is a did the chicken or the egg come first type of scenerio.

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 09:31 PM
I'll give you the best example I got and if that doesn't make it clear enough for you, then there's nothing else I can do:

Pittsburgh Steelers' (a team that knows a little about the 3-4) 2001 Draft:

First Round - Casey Hampton (NT)
Second Round - Kendrell Bell (ILB)

And you can add in all the Ware's, Babin's, etc. that you want and it still won't add up to more LBs being taken in the first round than DT's/NT's.

It's simple math. Simple enough that somebody as inept as I am can understand.

and yet that doesnt work because TJ couldnt hold Hampton's jock outta college, while DJ is better than Bell is right now (Vermeil said hes the best LB hes ever coached, and theyre on the same team)

stevo3883
09-18-2005, 09:33 PM
I'll give you the best example I got and if that doesn't make it clear enough for you, then there's nothing else I can do:

Pittsburgh Steelers' (a team that knows a little about the 3-4) 2001 Draft:

First Round - Casey Hampton (NT)
Second Round - Kendrell Bell (ILB)

And you can add in all the Ware's, Babin's, etc. that you want and it still won't add up to more LBs being taken in the first round than DT's/NT's.

It's simple math. Simple enough that somebody as inept as I am can understand.


and the person that came up with the 1st round arguement was you, not me.

You see more stud OLB's drafted much higher than stud DT's, you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE VALUABLE!

awtysst
09-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Can we please stop the DJ worship????? The dude was an excellent college player, he has looked decent so far. I personally think he will not amount to much in the NFL, but that is my personal opinion that could end up being wrong.

Nevertheless, the endless pining over the softy is sickening!!! He does not play for us, and will not play for us during the current regime. :brickwall

actually in 2 or 3 years(or whenerver e goes to free agency) we can try to sign him!

Keldar
09-18-2005, 10:32 PM
I think we can ALL agree on this, DJ could be no worse than the group we currently have pretending to be......err, playing linebacker.

That's the closest to a compliment I have for Mr. Locally Overrated, at this point.

Huge
09-19-2005, 08:09 AM
and yet that doesnt work because TJ couldnt hold Hampton's jock outta college, while DJ is better than Bell is right now (Vermeil said hes the best LB hes ever coached, and theyre on the same team)
So TJ wasn't as good as Hampton coming out of college but still goes much higher in the first than Hampton. What does that tell you about the value of defensive linemen?

I too think DJ is a better LB than Bell. But that doesn't make Bell a bad LB (despite his 2nd round draft status behind a defensive lineman). Bell already has a Defensive Rookie of the Year along with a Pro Bowl appearance (with another alternate selection).

All this as a 2nd round pick...behind a defensive lineman.

and the person that came up with the 1st round arguement was you, not me.

You see more stud OLB's drafted much higher than stud DT's, you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE VALUABLE!
I came up with the first round argument because you stated that not many DT's are taken early on in the draft. Is there some other meaning between being taken in the first round and being taken early?

Again, here's a recap of the last 5 drafts:

2001:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Gerrard Warren - 3rd overall
Justin Smith - 4th overall
Richard Seymour - 6th overall
Damione Lewis - 12th overall
Marcus Stroud - 13th overall
Casey Hampton - 19th overall
Ryan Pickett - 29th overall

LBs:
Zero taken in the first round

2002:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Ryan Sims - 6th overall
John Henderson - 9th overall
Wendell Bryant - 12th overall
Albert Haynesworth - 15th overall

LBs:
Napoleon Harris - 23rd overall
Robert Thomas - 31st overall

2003:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Dewayne Robertson - 4th overall
Johnathan Sullivan - 6th overall
Kevin Williams - 8th overall
Jimmy Kennedy - 12th overall
Ty Warren - 13th overall
William Joseph - 25th overall

LBs:
Terrell Suggs - 10th overall
Nick Barnett - 29th overall

2004:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Tommie Harris - 14th overall
Vince Wilfork - 21st overall
Marcus Tubbs - 23rd overall

LB's:
Jonathan Vilma - 12th overall
D.J. Williams - 17th overall
Jason Babin - 27th overall

2005:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Travis Johnson - 16th overall
Marcus Spears - 20th overall
Luis Castillo - 28th overall
Mike Patterson - 31st overall

LB's:
Demarcus Ware - 11th overall
Shawne Merriman - 12th overall
Derrick Johnson - 15th overall
David Pollack - 17th overall

By my count, that's:
24 Defensive lineman (this doesn't include DE's that would be too small for 3-4 systems)
11 LB's (to include those that were DE in college that projected as OLBs in the pros)

Average drafting position of these players:

Defensive linemen - 14.5
LB's - 18.5

So with having more than twice as many selections in the first round and being drafted, on average, 4 spots higher, how do you figure LB's are drafted much higher than defensive lineman?

Want another example? How 'bout New England (another team that knows a little something about running a 3-4 defense).

Starting line-up:
LDE - Ty Warren - 13th overall
NT - Vince Wolfork - 21st overall
RDE - Richard Seymour - 6th overall

LOLB - Mike Vrabel - 91st overall (Pittsburgh...another 3-4 team)
LILB - Monty Biesel - 107th overall (Kansas City) ... or Teddy Bruschi - 86th overall
RILB - Chad Brown - 44th overall (Pittsburgh...again)
ROLB - Rosevelt Colvin - 111th overall ... or Willie McGinest - 4th overall

Again, just like Pittsburgh, tell me where New England placed their priorities when drafting for their front 7. And if you feel they took the wrong approach, explain their results on the field that prove otherwise.

Earl
09-19-2005, 09:06 AM
Why all the negtavity on Pitts? The guy was a 3rd round pick, and has played every offensive snap in the history of the team.
Watch the games, if Chester Pitts was not starting for the Texans who would he start for - No One. Just becasuse you've played every game for the Texans doesn't make you a legitimate pro.

Vinny
09-19-2005, 09:13 AM
Pitts is one of our few solid starters.

beerlover
09-19-2005, 09:32 AM
that was a great post HUGE :thumbup

you can also clearly see over the last couple of years that trend is changing,
teams are drafting the dynamic playmakers @ linebacker over tackles, both a reflection of teams converting to the Patriots 3-4 & needing those type of players and the draft having more talent in the linebacker pool more so than the tackle pool.

Casserly felt he had the players needed at OLB & ILB to run the 3-4 in place allowing him to address the need on the interior line. But here is the rub, THE TEXANS PASSED ON THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE TO ADDRESS A NEED.

Not that I'm a GM but I would prefeer the franchise to build the future & foundation by selecting the BPA via the draft. then add depth & fulfill needs by adding key free agents. as an expansion franchise you don't trade multiple draft picks, you need those for the future, what you do is address need by spending capital on the best free agents available who fit those needs.

Derrick Johnson will be a pro-bowl MLB if you have a chance to draft him you do it, if you have to change the system you do it. players of this caliber are a premium, thats what drafting is all about. Travis Johnson will be a starter for the Texans, maybe even going to a couple Pro Bowls? but when your passing on future potentially hall of fame material over need then your gonna naturally fall behind the curve.

Huge
09-19-2005, 10:15 AM
that was a great post HUGE :thumbup

you can also clearly see over the last couple of years that trend is changing,
teams are drafting the dynamic playmakers @ linebacker over tackles, both a reflection of teams converting to the Patriots 3-4 & needing those type of players and the draft having more talent in the linebacker pool more so than the tackle pool.
I think that "trend" had more to do with available players than changing schemes. IOW, if there's a quality DL to be drafted, he's going to be drafted ahead of the quality LB. And there is a ton of history I can provide to show evidence of this.

Casserly felt he had the players needed at OLB & ILB to run the 3-4 in place allowing him to address the need on the interior line. But here is the rub, THE TEXANS PASSED ON THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE TO ADDRESS A NEED.
If Casserly felt he had the LBs to run their 3-4, then he didn't pass on an area of need. At the time, DL was the position of need. Now whether or not he's proven to be wrong remains to be seen.

Not that I'm a GM but I would prefeer the franchise to build the future & foundation by selecting the BPA via the draft. then add depth & fulfill needs by adding key free agents. as an expansion franchise you don't trade multiple draft picks, you need those for the future, what you do is address need by spending capital on the best free agents available who fit those needs.
I agree with all this. I just don't agree that DJ was the best fit for the draft selection at the time. Two games into their career will not prove anybody right or wrong.

Derrick Johnson will be a pro-bowl MLB if you have a chance to draft him you do it, if you have to change the system you do it. players of this caliber are a premium, thats what drafting is all about. Travis Johnson will be a starter for the Texans, maybe even going to a couple Pro Bowls? but when your passing on future potentially hall of fame material over need then your gonna naturally fall behind the curve.
Again, New England and Pittsburgh have been very successful running their 3-4 w/o superstar LBs. Well, they became superstars but that had nothing to do with where they were drafted.

Kansas City was in a good position to draft Johnson (rumors were that they actually wanted Thomas Davis) but that was only because they addressed their DL in previous drafts. Again, the DL coming before the LBs. Now there's a trend. ;)

stevo3883
09-19-2005, 03:22 PM
So TJ wasn't as good as Hampton coming out of college but still goes much higher in the first than Hampton. What does that tell you about the value of defensive linemen?

I too think DJ is a better LB than Bell. But that doesn't make Bell a bad LB (despite his 2nd round draft status behind a defensive lineman). Bell already has a Defensive Rookie of the Year along with a Pro Bowl appearance (with another alternate selection).

All this as a 2nd round pick...behind a defensive lineman.


I came up with the first round argument because you stated that not many DT's are taken early on in the draft. Is there some other meaning between being taken in the first round and being taken early?

Again, here's a recap of the last 5 drafts:

2001:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Gerrard Warren - 3rd overall
Justin Smith - 4th overall
Richard Seymour - 6th overall
Damione Lewis - 12th overall
Marcus Stroud - 13th overall
Casey Hampton - 19th overall
Ryan Pickett - 29th overall

LBs:
Zero taken in the first round

2002:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Ryan Sims - 6th overall
John Henderson - 9th overall
Wendell Bryant - 12th overall
Albert Haynesworth - 15th overall

LBs:
Napoleon Harris - 23rd overall
Robert Thomas - 31st overall

2003:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Dewayne Robertson - 4th overall
Johnathan Sullivan - 6th overall
Kevin Williams - 8th overall
Jimmy Kennedy - 12th overall
Ty Warren - 13th overall
William Joseph - 25th overall

LBs:
Terrell Suggs - 10th overall
Nick Barnett - 29th overall

2004:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Tommie Harris - 14th overall
Vince Wilfork - 21st overall
Marcus Tubbs - 23rd overall

LB's:
Jonathan Vilma - 12th overall
D.J. Williams - 17th overall
Jason Babin - 27th overall

2005:
DT's, NT's and DE's in 3-4 systems:
Travis Johnson - 16th overall
Marcus Spears - 20th overall
Luis Castillo - 28th overall
Mike Patterson - 31st overall

LB's:
Demarcus Ware - 11th overall
Shawne Merriman - 12th overall
Derrick Johnson - 15th overall
David Pollack - 17th overall

By my count, that's:
24 Defensive lineman (this doesn't include DE's that would be too small for 3-4 systems)
11 LB's (to include those that were DE in college that projected as OLBs in the pros)

Average drafting position of these players:

Defensive linemen - 14.5
LB's - 18.5

So with having more than twice as many selections in the first round and being drafted, on average, 4 spots higher, how do you figure LB's are drafted much higher than defensive lineman?

Want another example? How 'bout New England (another team that knows a little something about running a 3-4 defense).

Starting line-up:
LDE - Ty Warren - 13th overall
NT - Vince Wolfork - 21st overall
RDE - Richard Seymour - 6th overall

LOLB - Mike Vrabel - 91st overall (Pittsburgh...another 3-4 team)
LILB - Monty Biesel - 107th overall (Kansas City) ... or Teddy Bruschi - 86th overall
RILB - Chad Brown - 44th overall (Pittsburgh...again)
ROLB - Rosevelt Colvin - 111th overall ... or Willie McGinest - 4th overall

Again, just like Pittsburgh, tell me where New England placed their priorities when drafting for their front 7. And if you feel they took the wrong approach, explain their results on the field that prove otherwise.


Why are you counting Defensive Ends?

We are talking about tackles, you threw in a whole other position.

You just dont seem to understand values. The highest value pos is CB, then there are DE's and LB's if the team is a 4-3 the DE is more valuable, but if its a 3-4 the lb is more valuable, then a 4-3 DT, then a 3-4 DT, then a safety

this is all common sense

Huge
09-19-2005, 07:13 PM
Why are you counting Defensive Ends?

We are talking about tackles, you threw in a whole other position.

You just dont seem to understand values. The highest value pos is CB, then there are DE's and LB's if the team is a 4-3 the DE is more valuable, but if its a 3-4 the lb is more valuable, then a 4-3 DT, then a 3-4 DT, then a safety

this is all common sense
More times than not, DT's that are drafted from 4-3 go on to play DE's in the 3-4. There are exceptions (like Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, etc) that stay inside but for the most part, they will move outside. And since we're talking DTs, they were included.

Another reason I'm counting defensive ends is that that's the position Travis Johnson plays. Don't you think it's relevent to show the history of his position over the past few years compared to Derrick Johnson's? Don't you think that'd be a direct reflection of how much value has been placed on their positions over time? If not, why?

If I don't seem to understand the values, then neither does Bill Belichick or Bill Cowher (see the blatant evidence posted above). And no offense, but I'd take their side over yours any day of the week.