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View Full Version : Calling ex Off linemen and QBs for technique critique


Kaiser Toro
09-14-2005, 07:15 PM
Admittedly I never played Football, but it has been my favorite sport since I was 10 years old. I did play basketball in college, coached in college and represented players professionally in Europe. I assure you I am not tooting my horn as none of this is as sexy as it sounds, just qualifying my lead that I have a good feel for athletes and professionalism between the lines.

To the ex players out there on the boards can you speak to what you have seen from the individuals on the line and under center? I bash Carr for the value of his contract and others just flat out say our line stinks. But I want to know why the line stinks. I would like to know if I am way off on what I see from DC.

I appreciate your takes and do not want this thread to turn into a rant, but rather a technique driven thread.

BradK10
09-14-2005, 07:19 PM
Oh man watch out, you might overload the whiners with actual football discussion.

The two things I see wrong with Carr is tunnel vision and putting too much air under his deep ball. Facing cover 2 defenses, you've got to rifle the deep ball along the sidelines. The more air, the more time for safeties to get there.

BradK10
09-14-2005, 07:43 PM
Think about what I said about the deep ball.

If it's man coverage, and your WR can outrun the DB, then air it out.

If it's 2 deep and you've got a WR running a vertical pattern outside the hashes, you better deliver a bullet, because if you don't you just gave that safety extra time to get over there.

And no matter HOW bad the 2nd or 3rd option is, you HAVE to look at them. Don't be silly.

BradK10
09-14-2005, 07:55 PM
On the deep ball thing, I think we might just be thinking different types of deep balls. What I'm describing is more like a 20-25 yd route, where you hit the WR between the short corner and the deep safety.

sandt38
09-14-2005, 08:05 PM
The two things I see wrong with Carr is tunnel vision and putting too much air under his deep ball. Facing cover 2 defenses, you've got to rifle the deep ball along the sidelines. The more air, the more time for safeties to get there.

I was a defensive player (strong safety), but I spent alot of time learning offenses.

There is no way you can blame Carr for having tunnel vision against the Bills D. Buffalo was simply stronger up the middle and faster around the outside on the front. It is awfully hard to check all your recievers if you don't have time. The Bills don't offer easy defensive packages to read either, they do alot of shifting and disguising the defensive schemes. Faking blitzes on a QB who is suffering from opposing D-line's dominating the O-line can set him into man coverage reads. The Bills secondary is no slouch either, because even in man coverage they are extremely quick, very well disciplined (everybody knows where everybody is), and because of these 2 factors, they are easily able to be terribly aggressive to the ball. You need to keep in mind that a shut down corner can easily open up a free man in the secondary as an enforcer, when there is only 1 true star reciever downfield. Clements is definately a shut down corner, holding Johnson to 3 for 18. In many games Johnson will command a double team, but Clements ability really afforded us an enforcer in the middle.

It's not on Carr, and it is not on the line, as much as the recievers seeing what is happening and reacting to adjust their routes. When the QB has to drop from the pocket, the recievers had better pull from their routes and make themselves visable to the QB. He had better be able to look straight upfield and see a reciever rather than having to look over his shoulders, because we all know thowing across the body is difficult. Now, I'm not saying the line is not at fault, but all pro recievers should see and react to pocket collapses, and they didn't.

As far as too much air under the ball, there is more to it than that. A cannon will help in some situations, but when you have defenders who agressively attack the ball, they tend to get under the reciever rather than over them. What I mean is, they tend to stay between the QB and the reciever, knowing their backup will be behind to prevent the big gain. Getting less air under the ball is a sure-fire way to add INTs to the stat sheet. Professional level QBs will tell you the biggest mistake you can make is to ignore finesse. If you put it out of reach, the reciever should have the best chance of coming down with it in an agressive defensive scheme. You rifle it down the sidelines, you have a linebacker just waiting for that low ball, and a big defensive lineman able to get his paw 9-10 feet in the air to bat it down.

BradK10
09-14-2005, 08:14 PM
Single Wing :)

Ibar_Harry
09-14-2005, 08:17 PM
I was a defensive player (strong safety), but I spent alot of time learning offenses.

There is no way you can blame Carr for having tunnel vision against the Bills D. Buffalo was simply stronger up the middle and faster around the outside on the front. It is awfully hard to check all your recievers if you don't have time. The Bills don't offer easy defensive packages to read either, they do alot of shifting and disguising the defensive schemes. Faking blitzes on a QB who is suffering from opposing D-line's dominating the O-line can set him into man coverage reads. The Bills secondary is no slouch either, because even in man coverage they are extremely quick, very well disciplined (everybody knows where everybody is), and because of these 2 factors, they are easily able to be terribly aggressive to the ball. You need to keep in mind that a shut down corner can easily open up a free man in the secondary as an enforcer, when there is only 1 true star reciever downfield. Clements is definately a shut down corner, holding Johnson to 3 for 18. In many games Johnson will command a double team, but Clements ability really afforded us an enforcer in the middle.

It's not on Carr, and it is not on the line, as much as the recievers seeing what is happening and reacting to adjust their routes. When the QB has to drop from the pocket, the recievers had better pull from their routes and make themselves visable to the QB. He had better be able to look straight upfield and see a reciever rather than having to look over his shoulders, because we all know thowing across the body is difficult. Now, I'm not saying the line is not at fault, but all pro recievers should see and react to pocket collapses, and they didn't.

As far as too much air under the ball, there is more to it than that. A cannon will help in some situations, but when you have defenders who agressively attack the ball, they tend to get under the reciever rather than over them. What I mean is, they tend to stay between the QB and the reciever, knowing their backup will be behind to prevent the big gain. Getting less air under the ball is a sure-fire way to add INTs to the stat sheet. Professional level QBs will tell you the biggest mistake you can make is to ignore finesse. If you put it out of reach, the reciever should have the best chance of coming down with it in an agressive defensive scheme. You rifle it down the sidelines, you have a linebacker just waiting for that low ball, and a big defensive lineman able to get his paw 9-10 feet in the air to bat it down.

Nice reponse and fits into what I have been saying when they selected the 53 man rooster. They got rid of WR's who understand the game. Sounds funny, I know. Remeber, they were talking about how Kasper got open and how a couple of other people really looked good, but they didn't keep them. Instead they kept people like Bradford. What a waste. I also question Gaffny's ability at this point in time because of his shoulder and the lack of practice. His timing has to be off. I think Mathis's injury is hurting us badly as he is a body that might open things up, because I don't think we have anybody else that can. Will Mathis do that? I don't know. I just feel he is the only other real threat we have. I said earlier the receivers were not coming back to the ball to help the QB. That is another way to say what is happening. Its amazing how little people understand how fundementally poor the WR's are on this ball club and that includes AJ. AJ is very talented, but he has about as poor a coach as there is out there. I say go get JR and see if our WR's don't look a heck of a lot better. Its all about technique and route running. If you remember what Carr said about Corey, you will understand. He said this summer he began to work on his route running. How many years as he been in the NFL and with the Texans and he's just now learning to run routes. Give me a break......................

powda
09-14-2005, 08:20 PM
carr has bad mechanics. standing still the effect isnt that drastic...but carr is never standing still. he's always on the move.

(carr)
carr gets pressure early in the game=mechanics regress
+
carr is forced to scramble= his seemingly overnight loss of accuracy.

as a field general he has developed happy feet.he dosent look off defenders.his progression through his recievers is lacking (check aj, check davis, throw scramble or sack).
and he does not sale a fake handoff at all.

dont get me wrong; he has tons of potential ,but these are things i see.

(scheme/personel)

-no flexible game plan
-no #2 reciever
-no legitimate te
-predictable run game (run left,run left,run middle,run left)
-all offensive linemen are better run blockers then pass blockers
-not enough motion (dosent force defenders to think, dosent force mismatches, dosent allow carr the best oppurtunity to read coverage)
-young team (all players have 3 years or less experience in this offense)
-new learning curve (palmer's off season changes)

CajunTexan
09-14-2005, 09:41 PM
I am out here in La. so I don't get all the news and am new to the board, I know we didn't keep Swinton, which I thought was a mistake, but what about Derrick Armstrong?

Runner
09-14-2005, 10:15 PM
I'd expand on one of Ibar's points. I'm not sure how many of our coaches know how to bring out a player's best, individually or as units. Nothing ever seems to change in how players do things. It's just the same thing over and over.

wrestler4life
09-14-2005, 10:46 PM
If the other team is running a cover 2, then you have to be able to throw under the safeties. If the other team is blitzing, then there are holes. It is up to the recievers to make pre-snap reads and then react. But they must be on the same page as Carr. I remember neing at the SD game in their first year. I remember that they were running a cover 2 and sending almost all of their likebackers. The recievers never adjusted and Carr was pounded.
Also, if they are running the cover 2, then you have to send more than 2 recievers into the same side; one to get into the flat, and the other to take the safety. usually, if you read the corners hips, you then fire the ball away from the hips. A flat-corner route is usually a good cover 2 beater, especially if you have someone posting acros the field btween the safeties. That would confuse the safety who has to cover the corner. A 4 wide reciever set would really tear up this coverage when a team blitzes.

sandt38
09-14-2005, 11:06 PM
I'd expand on one of Ibar's points. I'm not sure how many of our coaches know how to bring out a player's best, individually or as units. Nothing ever seems to change in how players do things. It's just the same thing over and over.

I agree. Coaching makes a huge differance in individual play, as well as a groups cohesiveness, particularly position coaches. Look at the Bills Offensive line. We blew goats a couple years ago (51 sacks, no kidding). Last year with McNally the boys got it together and went off. We started weeks 1-4 with 19 sacks allowed on Blew Dreadslow (1-Jax, 7-Oak, 7-NE, 4-NYJ) and went 12 games with a total of 17 allowed on Dreadslow (1-Mia, 4-Bal, 0-Ari, 0-NYJ, 3-NE, 1-StL, 1-Sea, 3-Mia, 1-Cle, 2-Cin, 1-SF, 2-Pit). That is all about an offensive line coach seeing the weaknesses and shoring them up. We went from 4.75 sacks per game in 4 games to 1.4 per game over a 12 week span.

Head coaches need to bring it all together and coordinators need to blend all the players on their side of the ball together, but the micro-management comes down to the position coaches, and if you see no change in individual's abilities or unit cohesion, you have a position coach problem.

AJ is still young and it is awful hard to get down on a guy who has been in the league for 2 years and has averaged about 1000 YPS. I think alot of why you saw a one dimensional Carr really was because AJ was the only reciever reacting. Unfortunately, the defensive schemes are designed to force a QB in a specific direction. Realizing where Carr was being pushed made it easy for Clements to pick up the route, and really easy for Vincent to come over the top to pull off the finesse pass picks. If the other recievers had been well coached you guys would have crowded Carr's vision and may have wound up reaking havoc in the Bills Secondary.

HardKnockTexan
09-14-2005, 11:22 PM
I played Offenisve Line for 10 years, mostly at center. Over the past 3 seasons I've kept an eye on our line to see where the weak spots were. Sadley enough, the weak spots were all over the place. We have huge guards that dont have the quick feet to pull fast enough to get around to the OLB's or DE's. Our center seems to make the correct mental adjustments, it just seems like he doesnt have the strength to hold his spot. Over the last 3 years our tackles have looked confused on pass protection and decent in the run game.
Now for the last game against Buffalo. It was one of the best performances I've seen from our offensive line. Victor Riley had good footwork in pass blocking and did a solid job in walling off his man, creating a pocket. Todd Wade was aggresive and even though his man got away from him a time or two, he still stayed locked up with him long enough for the majority of QB's to make proper reads. Chester Pitts and Zach Wiegert both had solid performances. They did a good job in the run game. In the passing game they seemed to get confused by the delayed blitz. When they saw no one was comming they help out the tackles and then the blitz would come and they would get there too late. McKinney is the weak link. He just doesnt have the strength to match up with those big body's on most teams defensive lines. Our line will protect Carr this year. Our backs HAVE to start picking up the blitz and our TE's need to be able to read the blitz better and stay in and block when they see the blitz comming.
A lot of TE plays are option routs. They stay and block on blitzes and run routs if the defense only rushes 4.
This week we'll do a better job...

Kaiser Toro
09-14-2005, 11:23 PM
Ever seen what Fresno State, Oregon, BYU, Cal, USC runs? (talent levels adjusted for schools of course). The West Coast system is an inbred philosophy of coaching that never made it out to where the lamentations are.... If you want to dumb it down to what is nothing more than what you get in H-Town, then don't blame the players.

You have NO plan of attack and are going to get David killed running your ****** offensive scheme. Houston, why did your team go to Nashville? Another Fresno State QB that is nowhere as good as Carr is doing just fine there. He was a Wing-T QB out of Clovis West High, Fresneck State and now doing fine.

I'm trying to help some of you that want to blame David for your team's lack of productivity.

Sorry fellas, but you need to crack on Dom and his stubbornness to suck.

I do not dispute the fact that Volek had an opportunity to put the ball up a lot last year and performed well. But I do not want to lose as many games last year as the Titans.

Sounds like a chicken and egg situation. David is not good enough to be plug and play into any system, not sure if other QB's have been as well. But it does seem to be more of an indictment on DC's lack of adapting or our front office made a horrible decision pairing a coaching philiospohy with this type of QB.

Kaiser Toro
09-14-2005, 11:46 PM
So you are a fan then. I hear you from the stands wanting what isn't there.

As bad as they are, David Carr would fit in with the SF 49'ers and do well immediately.

I would be more of a fan if the QB for our team increased his production or his salary was lowered to be more in line with his results.

At this point it may be best for he and the Texans to part ways, however, we have been leasing this Carr and have no equity to get some form of credit towards a new purchase. Art does have a way of imitating life, in that a car depreciates as soon as the ink on the contract dries.

Kaiser Toro
09-15-2005, 12:11 AM
So then get Matt L. from USC. He'll get sacked just as often as Carr. Then who is to blame? Kirk Herbstreit?

Dn not care for Leinart and only would take stock in what Herbstreit thinks of his alma mater.

I trust historical data and it tells me that six of the last nine super bowl champs did not have a QB who was drafted in the first round. Capology is a science that is being used to a tee by the current "dynasties" in Pro Sports - NE, San Antone and Atlanta, not excluding other variables of course such as player development.

texan279
09-15-2005, 12:12 AM
So then get Matt L. from USC. He'll get sacked just as often as Carr. Then who is to blame? Kirk Herbstreit?

No, the RB's and TE's...

cadahnic
09-15-2005, 09:40 AM
I played A&M football and basketball. I have coached football and I would say D. Carr is an excellent QB. He has the arm, mobility, and heart to be a great one in this league. Whether it is with Houston or whatever team is lucky enough to get him after us. The O-line is slow footed and has bad angle technique when blocking, plus our blitz pickup is horrid. McKinney is a good OL but better suited as a Guard. We run a lot of max protect sets that leave no saftey options or underneath routes. Main issue is the play calling, which is predictable and reacting. Our offense is built to attack, but we do not and until we do we will lose.

J-Man
09-15-2005, 12:52 PM
Howdy...been a while since I've been on the boards but here goes.

I have a fair amount of expeirence as a SE and QB (truth in lending...not a great QB by any stretch) at the HS and college (DIV II) level. I think most of us in this thread have identified that the troubles really aren't just one area or person. I think that's a good sign we can have an intelligent discussion on this by the way.

If you think about the "average snap-to-pass" time folks on the board like to throw around (I think 3sec is the vogue time) that means a lot of things have to go right or at least not wrong, if you catch my drift, to get a simple completion.

Ref. the Oline...you never want pressure in your face as a QB. Many of the hurries and sacks on DC come up the middle either by way of delayed blitz or a stunting/looping DL. You can deal with pressure from the outside much better. I'm not the best to break down the OLine so I'll leave things at that; in fact I think Michael Irving said it best when he said, "OLine is simple, you with fat butt, take your fat butt and go over there and block that other guy with the fat butt". :ok: (yeah...I know it's not that easy!)

While the Oline is working (for 3-5 sec) the receivers have to SEPERATE from the defender or find the seam in zone. One of two things prevents this, 1) your covered by multiple defenders (ie AJ), or 2) you suck (all other options on the team). 7 times out of 10 if you ask DB to cover a WR for more than 4 seconds the offense will end up "winning" that down. The fact is that hardly any of our weapons were seperating from coverage during the game...kudos to TE Bruener for his catch over the middle (maybe the only one all season :cool: ). That is how you deal with Cover 2...a big target in the middle of the field. Oh, yeah...Gaffney, take notes...I don't give a d*** what play is called or what route you think your running keep your head on a swivel and if the QB HITS YOU WITH THE BALL YOU CATCH IT! It's is pretty easy to understand how DC can lock in to 1 or maybe two options there by keying the coverage to slide over when you don't have anything else going for you.

As for Carr...I personally think he is trying to do to much. He desperately needs some other playmakers to work with him (other than AJ). He does need better pass protection (including backs and TEs!). My best take is that he is a product of his professional enviroment...you can play the what if game and ask how you think he would have developed with a better coaching staff around him. I actually think that JP Losman is in a great position with the current Buffalo staff and in particular the QB Coach...Sam Wyche. Just my two cents but I wouldn't mind bringing back Wyche to be the O Coordinator. Ok...back to business, no matter what the reason the QB play still needs improvement. There are many things that could be worked on but to me the bottom line is that he doesn't trust (rightly or wrongly) his protection and anyone but AJ or DD with the ball.

HardKnockTexan
09-15-2005, 01:48 PM
The thing I really dont understand is how come we can never seem to even complete the "gimme" plays. Inside slants and curl routs in man to man coverage should almost always be completed for atleast 4 yards. As much as other teams blitz us it seems that if Bradford is on a quick slant Carr should be staring down AJ and then hit Bradford with no hesitation. This is a play that every team in the NFL runs succesfully but it doesnt seem like we can even execute the easy plays, let alone opening up the playbook. For an inside slant rout the line has to hold maybe 2 seconds. 2 step drop then BAM! throw the ball. I know its not that simple but come on, every team from JR High on up has the few plays that are there go to plays. Our go to play seems to go backwards before going foward, the quick screen to AJ. Maybe we should just revert to highschool play calling. Keep it simple. 84 slant. 22 sweep. 32 iso. One option and then if that doesnt work kneel the ball and take the loss.

Ibar_Harry
09-15-2005, 07:39 PM
Carr went to Bakersfield High, and was a Driller. They had a pass oriented offense. Nice try though.

Carr did not go to BHS. They were referring to Volick in that discussion. Carr I think went to South, but it wasn't BHS.

BuffSoldier
09-15-2005, 11:41 PM
Some of the O-line problems are as much of the coaches fault as the O-line itself. You cant blame an o-line for lack of talent, but you can blame the coaching staff for not exentuating the talents they do have.

Since the inaguration of the team, we have never had a LT with great feet, which is what you need to do a simple drop back and pass attack. Our LTs haent had the feet our athletisism to keep a good DE from making the move.

But what we do have is a QB with good moblitiy and good run blocking LTs. So what is the solution, more boots and pocket moveing, which make pass blocking sorta like zone blocking, without going up field.

If you do a sprint pass , right or left, it may be necessary to keep one back in the backfield, but that leaves 3 receivers and DD out to run routes. You let your lineman zone block left or right and they play more of a gap than a man, and the FB picks up the guy coming off the backside edge, he doesnt have to hold his block for very long since the QB is on the moce away from him anyway. That also opens up the screen plays.

I think with the lack of athetic ability at tackle, we should mix it up with sprint passes an bootlegs, which give DC the option to pass or throw.

Corrosion
09-16-2005, 12:01 AM
Howdy...been a while since I've been on the boards but here goes.

I have a fair amount of expeirence as a SE and QB (truth in lending...not a great QB by any stretch) at the HS and college (DIV II) level. I think most of us in this thread have identified that the troubles really aren't just one area or person. I think that's a good sign we can have an intelligent discussion on this by the way.

If you think about the "average snap-to-pass" time folks on the board like to throw around (I think 3sec is the vogue time) that means a lot of things have to go right or at least not wrong, if you catch my drift, to get a simple completion.

Ref. the Oline...you never want pressure in your face as a QB. Many of the hurries and sacks on DC come up the middle either by way of delayed blitz or a stunting/looping DL. You can deal with pressure from the outside much better. I'm not the best to break down the OLine so I'll leave things at that; in fact I think Michael Irving said it best when he said, "OLine is simple, you with fat butt, take your fat butt and go over there and block that other guy with the fat butt". :ok: (yeah...I know it's not that easy!)

While the Oline is working (for 3-5 sec) the receivers have to SEPERATE from the defender or find the seam in zone. One of two things prevents this, 1) your covered by multiple defenders (ie AJ), or 2) you suck (all other options on the team). 7 times out of 10 if you ask DB to cover a WR for more than 4 seconds the offense will end up "winning" that down. The fact is that hardly any of our weapons were seperating from coverage during the game...kudos to TE Bruener for his catch over the middle (maybe the only one all season :cool: ). That is how you deal with Cover 2...a big target in the middle of the field. Oh, yeah...Gaffney, take notes...I don't give a d*** what play is called or what route you think your running keep your head on a swivel and if the QB HITS YOU WITH THE BALL YOU CATCH IT! It's is pretty easy to understand how DC can lock in to 1 or maybe two options there by keying the coverage to slide over when you don't have anything else going for you.

As for Carr...I personally think he is trying to do to much. He desperately needs some other playmakers to work with him (other than AJ). He does need better pass protection (including backs and TEs!). My best take is that he is a product of his professional enviroment...you can play the what if game and ask how you think he would have developed with a better coaching staff around him. I actually think that JP Losman is in a great position with the current Buffalo staff and in particular the QB Coach...Sam Wyche. Just my two cents but I wouldn't mind bringing back Wyche to be the O Coordinator. Ok...back to business, no matter what the reason the QB play still needs improvement. There are many things that could be worked on but to me the bottom line is that he doesn't trust (rightly or wrongly) his protection and anyone but AJ or DD with the ball.


:texflag: Great Post :texflag: