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Hervoyel
09-12-2005, 12:04 PM
Ok, I'm sure most everyone here has or will read this (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3349487) article in todays Chronicle. Would all of you do me the courtesy of telling me what you think about it here on this thread?

Rightnow
09-12-2005, 12:06 PM
Bill Simmons said any team the Capers coaches will underachieve. I think he is right.

PapaL
09-12-2005, 12:18 PM
The biggest thing that stands out to me is:

Yet on Sunday, Carr said the three-step drop — the quickest release, the one that might have negated the Buffalo pass rush — was called only "two or three times."

Spend all offseason working on things, and only use them 2 or 3 times? Makes no sense.

cuppacoffee
09-12-2005, 12:21 PM
"Johnson was escorted out of the interview area after using some form of the word embarrass three times. He was allowed to answer just eight questions." :embarrass

Our elite players will bolt the first chance they get. There are always ways to force a trade. :(

ArlingtonTexan
09-12-2005, 12:21 PM
Honestly, there have been a handful of people (Vinny for one) stating this difference for a couple of years. Palmer has a history in wide-open attacks and Capers is from a ball control with deep play action passing back ground. It is obvious that Capers has the last say in the matter.

TEXANS84
09-12-2005, 12:23 PM
What I'd like to know is where they hid the offense from the Vikings game.

beerlover
09-12-2005, 12:27 PM
Justice hit the nail on the head :brickwall preaching to the choir :soapbox:

Hervoyel
09-12-2005, 12:27 PM
That struck me as strange too. If that's completely the truth then what is going on here? The entire article rang true to me. The team, at least on offense, does feel divided and pulled in two different directions.

I'm not apologizing for Carr but he wasn't this flaky when he got here. I think we made him what he is now. We destroyed his confidence and let the rest of the NFL destroy his body in a record setting beating that's still in progress.

Whatever he might have been able to become we'll never know because we can't start over with him from the beginning. That baggage he's carrying around will be there for the rest of his career and I would not be the slightest bit surprised if that career grinds to a halt right here in Houston this season or next.

rittenhouserobz
09-12-2005, 12:27 PM
Honestly, there have been a handful of people (Vinny for one) stating this difference for a couple of years. Palmer has a history in wide-open attacks and Capers is from a ball control with deep play action passing back ground. It is obvious that Capers has the last say in the matter.

They should have picked Peppers instead of Carr. He would have served the purpose of the head coach. I am not saying I don't want a QB that can throw, but maybe Peppers would have been better for this team than Carr. IMHO.

beerlover
09-12-2005, 12:32 PM
where the Texans failed this year started in the draft by not getting their WR (Williamson) then not addressing the #2 slot WR position in free agency by doing whatever it took to sign Derrick Mason. its apparent to me at least this is killing Carr and the offense because teams stack the box against the run which also increases pocket pressure and tripple coverage on Andre :brickwall

Hervoyel
09-12-2005, 12:35 PM
"Johnson was escorted out of the interview area after using some form of the word embarrass three times. He was allowed to answer just eight questions." :embarrass

Our elite players will bolt the first chance they get. There are always ways to force a trade. :(


Me too. It sounds like the team is afraid that given enough time one of their stars will say what's on his mind and they'd rather we not hear that. Carr, despite what's become of his game is 100% class in terms of the kind of person he is and I think the team feels "safer" letting him speak at length with the press. He's not about to point fingers or call anyone out at this point. By the end of the year they may be keeping him limited to 10 or fewer questions. Who knows.

PapaL
09-12-2005, 12:39 PM
They should have picked Peppers instead of Carr. He would have served the purpose of the head coach. I am not saying I don't want a QB that can throw, but maybe Peppers would have been better for this team than Carr. IMHO.

I've been thinking the same thing.

TheOgre
09-12-2005, 12:39 PM
The offense is stale and predictable. I think Chris Palmer and Greg Davis (Texas Longhorn's Offensive Coordinator) went to the same school. It is very aggravating.

I personally believe that Carr can be a good to great QB, but not with the current setup.

Errant Hothy
09-12-2005, 12:45 PM
"That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said

That's a very damning statment, espically coming form Carr.

Has Carr regresed? Yeah I think so. Does he have the talent and knowledge to succed in teh NFL? I think he does, but I doubt we'll ever see it with the current regime; and if Capers is over riding Palmer's attemtps to open up the game, which is what Justice is implying, then Dom's time is up.

I never thought I'd be sayign these things but yesterday's performance may be these team's worst yet, and I fear for Carr next week.

SBTexans08
09-12-2005, 12:48 PM
"That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said
I fear for Carr next week.

Yup...me too...that's why the webmasters of this MB chose this image of Carr for the forums banner/header image. :brickwall

Run Carr, RUN!!!! :eek:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/images/mb_header.jpg

V Man
09-12-2005, 12:56 PM
They should have picked Peppers instead of Carr. He would have served the purpose of the head coach. I am not saying I don't want a QB that can throw, but maybe Peppers would have been better for this team than Carr. IMHO.

Could have done that and got Clinton Portis in the second round instead on Gaffney. Hindsight in 20/20 they say.

SBTexans08
09-12-2005, 12:58 PM
Could have done that and got Clinton Portis in the second round instead on Gaffney. Hindsight in 20/20 they say.

You're right. Anyhow....Clinton Portis wouldn't have Clinton Portis type numbers anyhow...not with this O-line. idonno:

bckey
09-12-2005, 01:00 PM
Herv, that article says it all. It is kind of disturbing in a way. I have never liked or wanted Capers as our hc. It feels like we have wasted 3+ years because of him at the helm. If the Texans continue to play the way they played in Buffalo then it could get ugly at home games. We saw a little of the ugliness at the Cleveland game last year. I think McNair would be forced to make a change even if he doesn't really want to.

"I never had so much protection in my life," Losman said.

"That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said. (Carr)

Johnson was escorted out of the interview area after using some form of the word embarrass three times. He was allowed to answer just eight questions.

Carr hung around longer. When he did leave, he bent down to pick up a box lunch.

He needed two tries. He groaned the first time and straightened up. He reached a second time, picked the food up and walked unsteadily out of the stadium.

"That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said.

He didn't take a shot at Palmer or anyone else. But he came close.

"We've got the players," Carr said. "We've got talent. But they (the Bills) were on everything. Everything we did, they jumped. There's no other way to put it. We just didn't get it done."

"It just feels like the first year," he said. "I sat on the sidelines for five minutes after the game. I was totally in disbelief of what just went on."

V Man
09-12-2005, 01:04 PM
You're right. Anyhow....Clinton Portis wouldn't have Clinton Portis type numbers anyhow...not with this O-line. idonno:

I know the O-line isn't the best, but they have helped DD to back to back 1000 yard seasons. (Portis would have been fine, especially if we haven't wasted 3 2nd rounders in 3 years on projects, instead on O-line help like they should have been used for) Hard to run block with 8 or 9 in the box like the article said.

Also O-line can't take the blame for it all, our backs couldn't pick up a blitz if the knew exactly where it was coming from.

SBTexans08
09-12-2005, 01:09 PM
I know the O-line isn't the best, but they have helped DD to back to back 1000 yard seasons. (Portis would have been fine, especially if we haven't wasted 3 2nd rounders in 3 years on projects, instead on O-line help like they should have been used for) Hard to run block with 8 or 9 in the box like the article said.

Also O-line can't take the blame for it all, our backs couldn't pick up a blitz if the knew exactly where it was coming from.

It was a joke. Having allowed for a back to gain over 1,000 yrds in back to back seasons nullifies my statement. I didn't mean it all.

TexanTom
09-12-2005, 01:11 PM
"That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said

That's a very damning statment, espically coming form Carr.

Has Carr regresed? Yeah I think so. Does he have the talent and knowledge to succed in teh NFL? I think he does, but I doubt we'll ever see it with the current regime; and if Capers is over riding Palmer's attemtps to open up the game, which is what Justice is implying, then Dom's time is up.

I never thought I'd be sayign these things but yesterday's performance may be these team's worst yet, and I fear for Carr next week.

Along the same lines - out of Len Pasquarelli's Morning After over on espn.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2159170)


Observations on the Week 1 action from one AFC scout and from a former NFL personnel director:

"The clock has got to be ticking on [Houston offensive coordinator] Chris Palmer or [quarterback David] Carr, doesn't it? I mean, that was just a pitiful display of offense [at Buffalo]. And Carr just looks like he's suddenly regressed. It was like he was trying to read a foreign language. They've got way too big an investment in the guy for him to be playing that lousy."


Now, I've never really been on the 'Fire the coaches!' bandwagon and I'm DEFINITELY not on the 'Start Ragone' bandwagon. The coaches didn't fumble the ball or throw the INT's; the coaches didn't jump offsides every time a blitz was called on a passing down in the first half; it was too painful to try and rewatch to see if some of the truly questionable play calls were audibles or what; but I was downright embarassed as a Texan's fan. I think as the year progresses we'll find out the Bills were a pretty good team, but if the play doesn't improve from what we saw this week you can pretty much guarantee some coaches will be gone whether they deserve it or not.

Lucky
09-12-2005, 01:14 PM
...if Capers is over riding Palmer's attemtps to open up the game, which is what Justice is implying, then Dom's time is up.

I didn't get that from the Justice article. Look at these quotes:

Around the NFL, some believed offensive line coach Joe Pendry had a big hand in the offensive changes. He's a former offensive coordinator and a man who probably sees offensive football the way Capers sees it.

Palmer still calls the plays. And coincidentally or not, the Texans didn't do the things they'd done the past six months in practice. Carr was sacked five times.

Yet on Sunday, Carr said the three-step drop ó the quickest release, the one that might have negated the Buffalo pass rush ó was called only "two or three times."

Reads to me as if Palmer thumbed his nose at Pendry's short passing game. Maybe because the execution was so poor during the preseason. Maybe because he doesn't like Pendry moving in on his turf.

I don't know what the answer is. But Capers is the head coach, and he deserves to sink or swim with his style of football. Maybe it's time to hand over the play calling duties to Pendry? I don't expect it to happen now, but maybe over the bye week. I don't see how it could hurt.

OzzO
09-12-2005, 01:22 PM
I think it earily reminescent to what some of our departed players have said concerning leadership. Maybe not exact words, but similar in a way as well.

If it is two different styles of leadership - there's a major issue (obviously). It's hard working for multiple managers, much moreso when the managers have different expectations. Seems all want to do their thing with some relation to the "team goal", but no real commonality between expectations.

Typing that - it seems to come down to el GRANDE McNair to inform Capers it's time for the focus... whatever that may be. Then for Capers to close the mouth except when stating to the others (including Casserly) - THIS is how we're going to do it. Then if it fails once more... it's on Capers for not being the sideline leader.

Capers apprently informs Casserly what guys he wants in the draft - either that's not true, or there's a breakdown in that communication.

nunusguy
09-12-2005, 01:26 PM
""That's as hopeless as I've felt in the pocket," he said.
"We've got the players," Carr said. "We've got talent. But they (the Bills) were on everything. Everything we did, they jumped. There's no other way to put it. We just didn't get it done."
***********************************************
Remember Billy Bibbit in "One Flew over the Cukoo nest " ? You know, the
poor sap that Nuse Ratchett bullied into being so insecure about himself that he stuttered badly with every sentence he spoke. I swear that's who I thought of when I saw Carr on TV being interviewed after the game.

HardKnockTexan
09-12-2005, 01:27 PM
I hate to say this, because i want to have faith in my team, but I believe that the coaching staff may have ruined a potentially amazing QB's carreer. The inablity to provide any kind of protection for Carr has made him so quick to scramble that he's not trusting the system and doing what it takes to make the progress an elite NFL QB needs to making. Even if our line has gotten better, it's tough to tell because the moment he feels a bit of pressure he's on the run. He doesnt trust his teammates to pick up the pass rush the second before they get to him. When i was watching manning and the colts last night, i saw the difference trust in your teammates can make on how good you perform. Manning would feel heavy pressure but he trusted his linemen enough to believe that they would pick up the rush before they got to him. Manning will hang in the pocket long enough to make his reads where the second carr feels the heat he's on the run, destroying any kind of chance of executing the called play.
This is the worst i've ever felt after a game. Even after last years opening day loss, i could see signs that we improved as a team. Yesterday showed me no progress. I've always supported our team, coaching staff and QB, but after yesterday, thoughts i didnt want to ever have started creeping into my mind. With bassically the same offense on the field as last season there is NO excuse for not showing signs of improvement... I'm so disapointed...

Fiddy
09-12-2005, 01:30 PM
Bills safety Troy Vincent, who had two of the three interceptions, said Carr looks at some receivers too long before delivering the ball. We will have a problem with this offense until Carr fixes the locking on WRs and especially locking down on Davis.

I read something in my Sporting news mag about the quick drops with Carr. It said he threw too many INTs in practice with the quick drops and that's why they probably dont call it. That was re-affirmed in the Tampa Bay game. Palmer and Capers dont trust Carr with the quick drops because it would greatly increase the chances for INTs.

Double Barrel
09-12-2005, 01:35 PM
I'm not apologizing for Carr but he wasn't this flaky when he got here. I think we made him what he is now. We destroyed his confidence and let the rest of the NFL destroy his body in a record setting beating that's still in progress.

Whatever he might have been able to become we'll never know because we can't start over with him from the beginning. That baggage he's carrying around will be there for the rest of his career and I would not be the slightest bit surprised if that career grinds to a halt right here in Houston this season or next.

Man, you hit the nail on the head of my gut feelings watching the game yesterday.

The old "what if" game comes up: what if Carr had been taken by an established team, would he be the NFL QB stud? I think so. He's definitely got the talent and smarts for it.

So what if the beatings of the last three years, the lack of protection, the constant fear and lack of trust in his line...what if all of this has formed into reactions that cause him to make bad decisions?

These formative years are so important to an NFL QB. He is developing flight tendencies from our team's inability to provide him with consistent protection.

If we had chosen Joey Harrington, I am convinced that he would be developing the same way. :(

Hervoyel
09-12-2005, 01:41 PM
Happy feet, some quarterbacks have them, some don't, and some develop them right before your very eyes.

eriadoc
09-12-2005, 01:43 PM
If we had chosen Joey Harrington, I am convinced that he would be developing the same way.

If we had chosen ANY quarterback, they would be developing this same way. The sad thing is, people will be calling for us to draft another QB soon, and all that will do is ruin another QB's career chances. We need to fix the O-line and offensive philosophy first.

Double Barrel
09-12-2005, 01:47 PM
Happy feet, some quarterbacks have them, some don't, and some develop them right before your very eyes.

Love the new avatar, man! :thumbup I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to e-mail a copy of it to a couple of Texans buddies that are bummed out about the team. They don't come to the forum to get all the happy feelings like I do. ;)

ComstockLode
09-12-2005, 01:51 PM
If we had chosen ANY quarterback, they would be developing this same way. The sad thing is, people will be calling for us to draft another QB soon, and all that will do is ruin another QB's career chances. We need to fix the O-line and offensive philosophy first.

ding ding ding we have a winner

OzzO
09-12-2005, 01:52 PM
I nominate Hervoyel as official quality Avatar maker! Classic. Can we get one with the playbook noting:

page 1 - 1st down - run
page 2 - 2nd down and 8 - pass
page 3 - 3rd down and 15 - run

Sorry - I guess off topic.

Back on - is it becoming clearer then what our true needs are?
- Capers, offensive coaches, and Casserly are not truly on the same page and the players are suffering for it? Something (someone) needs to be adjusted.
- Carr has been "trained" for the quick hit, therefore has "lock on or run" syndrome? How long would it take to re-estabilsh the trust, if at all, even if we improved the line today (with either players or that "better scheme").

I do know, that if we do go on some winning streak this season... better not see some friggin "Caper's movie night" after that... there's a ways to go before movie time should pop back up in Texans-land.

Hervoyel
09-12-2005, 01:57 PM
They're welcome to it Double Barrel. I'm going to do most of my venting through avatar design in the coming weeks so keep your eyes open and you might find some more you like.

Fiddy
09-12-2005, 02:03 PM
May be a little off topic, but really didnt see the need for another thread.

I'm also tired of empty promises from this coaching staff. Last year it was we are going to get Hollings touches in the game. This year it is, we are going to give Morency about 10 touches in the game. I dont think he got one. We will blitz more. Nope. Quicker routes. Didnt see those. Carr seeing the field better. Uh-uh. And the list goes on.

DatTexBoy
09-12-2005, 02:03 PM
The offense is stale and predictable. I think Chris Palmer and Greg Davis (Texas Longhorn's Offensive Coordinator) went to the same school. It is very aggravating.

I personally believe that Carr can be a good to great QB, but not with the current setup.

You stole the words right out of my mouth. Texas almost lost that game due to the repeating of plays that was just not working.

Memo to Palmer:

You need to stop snacking in the booth and start paying attention to what the heck is going on with this team. Explain to me why commit your entire offseason to 3 step drops and then use it three times.

Insane: we all heard this one...doing the same thing trying to get different results.

Keep Capers and send him to the Defensive coord.

Fire Casserly and Palmer

Convince Andre Johnson to stay and extend his contract since that is in style these days.

Trade Dom Davis before he fumbles his value away.

Cut Bradford, and stop signing guys because they go to church and won't talk bad (tell the truth) about the organization.

Okay I am ranting but com'n can you seriously believe that this team/management are doing what they "say" they were going to do.

Game one is understood but I have seen 3 straight games like this. Not just one.

texan0305
09-12-2005, 02:04 PM
palmer needs to go i'm sick and tired of seeing him ruin the texans, enough is enough, he's been calling the same plays for 4 years, u could give me a week with an nfl defense and i could stop the texans offense right now, thats how sad his play calling is....

BigBull17
09-12-2005, 02:16 PM
Did you notice Carr looked hurt in the second quarter? He threw like he couldnt extend right.

Keldar
09-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Ok, I'm sure most everyone here has or will read this (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3349487) article in todays Chronicle. Would all of you do me the courtesy of telling me what you think about it here on this thread?

Sadly.......and I mean it literally, SADLY, Justice was right on the money about every point. I could definitely sense the frustration through his keyboard that we all feel, and are afraid to say after only the first game.

Vinny
09-13-2005, 11:08 AM
Ok, I'm sure most everyone here has or will read this (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3349487) article in todays Chronicle. Would all of you do me the courtesy of telling me what you think about it here on this thread?Herv,

I've spoken about this time and time again over the years and I think this offense is a product of Capers and will probably not open up until he is fired. I don't think that Palmer is the right guy to point a finger at (although he should take his share of the blame for sure) since he had a fantastic offense at Jacksonville with Jimmy Smith and Mark Bruenell, but nobody wants to hear that so I just stopped speaking about it because I just don't want to argue a point that is so debatable and with so much random hysteria attached to it here. The Palmer Jags were one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL and Brunell never played better than he did under Palmer (In Brunells 12 year career, the 2 of Brunellís highest QB rating years came under Palmer). I'd say the same thing about Bledsoe. Bledsoe had his best years under Palmer and once Palmer left Bledsoe hasn't produced the same way. I have a few more thoughts on this but will probably relay them as this season unfolds. Palmer is not the guy who wants an ultra conservative, ball-controll offense. That man is Capers.

Hervoyel
09-13-2005, 11:18 AM
I appreciate you telling me what you think about that article. Question for you Vinny and if you would rather not open a debate on it out here then IM me with the answer. Do you think that the Texans would be better off if (and I know exactly how unlikely this is) Capers took the fall on this right now and if, over the objections of the entire Palmer hating world, Chris got promoted to interim head coach?

The howling would be heard for miles I bet and fans everywhere would be leaping out of windows but I wonder if the change might not be for the better.

And for the record I'm not rabidly after firing Palmer despite what my sig says. I just thought it was funny.

Vinny
09-13-2005, 11:27 AM
I gave some rep for that quote the other day. Hilarious.

I'll PM you after I finish watching the game and post my thoughts on the Bills game....It will be a few hours since I have a bit of real work to do too.

PapaL
09-13-2005, 11:34 AM
Here is what Palmer and Capers have done as a HC in the NFL: pro-football-reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/PalmCh0.htm)
Palmer:
+--------------+----------+
| Reg. Season | Playoffs |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| Year TM | W L T | W L |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| 1999 cle | 2 14 0 | 0 0 |
| 2000 cle | 3 13 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| TOTALS | 5 27 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
Team rankings
PT = points, Y = yards, A = attempts, YA = yards per attempt

+----------+--------- Offense --------------+-------- Defense --------------+----+
| |- TOT --|--- Rush --|--- Pass --|- TOT--|--- Rush --|--- Pass --| OUT|
| Year TM | PT Y A Y YA TD A Y YA TD | PT Y A Y YA TD A Y YA TD | OF|
+----------+--------------------------------+-------------------------------+----+
| 1999 cle | 31 31 31 31 20 22 28 29 28 20 | 29 31 31 31 30 31 13 11 11 5 | 31 |
| 2000 cle | 31 31 31 30 30 26 24 29 29 30 | 27 28 31 29 19 30 7 13 21 11 | 31 |
+----------+--------------------------------+-------------------------------+----+

Capers:
+--------------+----------+
| Reg. Season | Playoffs |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| Year TM | W L T | W L |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| 1995 car | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 1996 car | 12 4 0 | 1 1 |
| 1997 car | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
| 1998 car | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 hou | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 hou | 5 11 0 | 0 0 |
| 2004 hou | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| TOTALS | 46 66 0 | 1 1 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
Team rankings
PT = points, Y = yards, A = attempts, YA = yards per attempt

+----------+--------- Offense --------------+-------- Defense --------------+----+
| |- TOT --|--- Rush --|--- Pass --|- TOT--|--- Rush --|--- Pass --| OUT|
| Year TM | PT Y A Y YA TD A Y YA TD | PT Y A Y YA TD A Y YA TD | OF|
+----------+--------------------------------+-------------------------------+----+
| 1995 car | 25 27 15 20 30 21 18 25 25 25 | 8 9 18 10 4 27 23 17 7 4 | 30 |
| 1996 car | 7 23 4 15 24 22 24 20 11 15 | 2 12 3 8 24 4 22 18 11 7 | 30 |
| 1997 car | 27 26 19 15 14 18 14 25 27 21 | 13 13 25 22 17 18 6 8 12 8 | 30 |
| 1998 car | 12 19 25 28 25 17 19 11 11 9 | 27 30 25 26 25 23 12 26 28 30 | 30 |
| 2002 hou | 32 32 21 31 32 32 32 32 30 32 | 20 18 32 28 14 15 6 8 13 21 | 32 |
| 2003 hou | 28 31 22 23 21 15 31 30 21 29 | 27 31 30 31 22 23 12 31 31 21 | 32 |
| 2004 hou | 21 15 10 13 23 7 24 16 11 27 | 15 23 7 13 23 1 24 24 23 30 | 32 |
+----------+--------------------------------+-------------------------------+----+

Vinny
09-13-2005, 11:36 AM
Those '99 and '00 years are two expansion years on a team less talented than the Texans. Couch had a better rookie year than Carr fwiw.

texasguy346
09-13-2005, 12:09 PM
Happy feet, some quarterbacks have them, some don't, and some develop them right before your very eyes.

Very true. Look at Ramsey when he first came in with the Redskins. He had good pocket awareness, and he would make sure his feet were set before he fired a pass off. He doesn't look like the same QB now after having taken a beating under Spurrier, and repeatedly being pushed aside by Gibbs to put in Brunnell. He's got the same problem that Carr has although I doubt he's been sacked anywhere near the amount of times Carr has been.

Vinny
09-13-2005, 12:11 PM
One of Carr's knocks in College was holding on to the ball too long and locking on to receivers. He hasn't gotten any better.

Corrosion
09-13-2005, 12:33 PM
Capers and Palmer Can Not Co-exist .... The systems they each want to operate within are too different . This may have something to do with the way this offense looks on the field .... Because on paper they have very good players at the skill positions .

The O-line is primarily made up of good run blockers who are better serverd with a run between the tackles offense . The O-line takes a lot of heat for poor pass protection , They shoulder a lot of that criticism but part of it is the fact they are in 2nd-3rd and long much of the time .... DD picking up blitzing LB's is difficult when you are the safety valve ....
Capers needs a back like Jerome Bettis or Stephen Davis , big bruiser type backs that are best between the tackles .

The skill position players are MUCH better suited to playing in space .... DD is at his best out of the back-field , in space not staying in to pick up the blitzing LB . Carr is better rolling out .... AJ is ... well , AJ . Carr isnt very good at the play action fake .... He just doesnt SELL the run and thats a big part of Capers passing attack .

As far as Capers wanting to run to set up the pass .... thats fine . Only problem is that every team in the NFL knows what Capers WANTS to do and they stack the line with 8 in the box ..... You just cant run between the tackles against that . Which leads us back to 3rd and long .... when the D-line again knows whats coming .... In Capers offense if you cant run .... you cant pass .

Capers is probably the WORST coach in the NFL when it comes to making OFFENSIVE adjustments . He will not waver from his game plan period...

A possible solution would be to line up in the shot-gun with split backs .... DD and J.Wells or Moran Norris and 3 recievers . Or just DD as a single back and 4 recievers to spread the field ..... But this leads us back to the fundamental differences between Capers and Palmer . :brickwall

SESupergenius
09-13-2005, 12:35 PM
Herv,

I've spoken about this time and time again over the years and I think this offense is a product of Capers and will probably not open up until he is fired. I don't think that Palmer is the right guy to point a finger at (although he should take his share of the blame for sure) since he had a fantastic offense at Jacksonville with Jimmy Smith and Mark Bruenell, but nobody wants to hear that so I just stopped speaking about it because I just don't want to argue a point that is so debatable and with so much random hysteria attached to it here. The Palmer Jags were one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL and Brunell never played better than he did under Palmer (In Brunells 12 year career, the 2 of Brunellís highest QB rating years came under Palmer). I'd say the same thing about Bledsoe. Bledsoe had his best years under Palmer and once Palmer left Bledsoe hasn't produced the same way. I have a few more thoughts on this but will probably relay them as this season unfolds. Palmer is not the guy who wants an ultra conservative, ball-controll offense. That man is Capers.
Not really arguing your take on Bruenell and Bledsoe, but last I looked, Palmer never got them to the promised land. Pick a card, any card, there's plenty of those blame cards to go around.

HJam72
09-13-2005, 12:42 PM
I'll say this:

If Johnson asks for a trade, we ask him, "Who can we bench or fire to make you want to stay?" That's what our owner should be thinking. I know that's highly irregular, but of all the staff and players we have right now, AJ and Robinson are the only people that I am certain that nobody wants to see them go. OK, CC Brown's looking pretty good too and I'm sure he's cheap.

If things don't change soon, I want somebody fired. I'm not sure who, but I want to see that McNair knows there's a problem and is doing something about it, or Casserly (whoever does that, lol), and I'm not sure Casserly is so safe either. Not at all.

shinerbock_girl
09-13-2005, 12:48 PM
"Johnson was escorted out of the interview area after using some form of the word embarrass three times. He was allowed to answer just eight questions." :embarrass

Our elite players will bolt the first chance they get. There are always ways to force a trade. :(

Once we lose Andre, its over...He has too much talent to be wasting every year on hopes....

disaacks3
09-13-2005, 01:22 PM
One of Carr's knocks in College was holding on to the ball too long and locking on to receivers. He hasn't gotten any better. The really bad thing is that his "College Critique" DIDN'T mention happy feet! That's something he's learned while with the Texans. It's bad in (at least) a couple of ways:

A) He doesn't trust the Texans line to keep him from getting crushed; he's no longer as willing to take the hit in the pocket in order to give the play time to develop. He's convinced (unless there's completely blown coverage) that the play never WILL develop.

B) Now he "locks on" to a receiver while fleeing towards the sideline and rarely throws across his body. This makes it FAR easier for the DB to cover (less area to cover) and more likely that we'll end up with an incomplete or an Int.

C) It makes him even MORE prone to NOT following his progressions. He "hears the footsteps" almost as soon as the ball is snapped now. He looks for his 'outlet' receiver (usually a close-in RB) and forgets the rest of the designed play in favor of living to fight another day.

TheOgre
09-13-2005, 01:24 PM
When Mack Brown became the head coach at Texas, he decided to retain defensive coordinator Carl Reese. Reese was a solid coordinator that believed in an aggressive defense with man coverage and a lot of blitzes. Brown let Reese run this style for a couple of years before he pushed for him to use a more conservative zone blocking scheme. Reese did this and it was a failure. It wasn't the scheme he loved and believed in. Eventually this led to his demise.

I think this is the situation we find ourselves in with Palmer and Capers. Palmer isn't really geared to run this style of play calling. While I think Palmer can be successful, I don't think he can do that within Capers' parameters. I really hope that Palmer is the scapegoat for this season (if we underachieve) and that Capers brings in a guy more suited to his system.

Corrosion
09-13-2005, 01:33 PM
I really hope that Palmer is the scapegoat for this season (if we underachieve) and that Capers brings in a guy more suited to his system.


I'd like to see them both gone .... :texflag:

Porky
09-13-2005, 02:26 PM
I would get rid of Palmer, Fangio, Capers, Casserly, and all of the assistants except Hoke. Elevate Hoke to DC, or even head coach. That guy has Jeff Fisher potential, and he will bolt soon to an organization that can see his talent.

Hervoyel
09-13-2005, 02:39 PM
Now that I've had time to sit and simmer in my negativity for a while I'm starting to calm down a little bit. It still doesn't take much to set me off but I'm at least no longer trying to find a good strong beam in my house that could hold a rope.

I'd honestly like to see a Palmer led team on an interim basis. Send Dom packing, keep everyone below him if they're willing to stay and promote as needed. I'd just like to see us either continue to do what we've been doing (and then really go buck wild on the "Fire Palmer" bandwagon) or see things change a little bit as we try to get a little wild and crazy with the offense.

I'd like to know for certain who's responsible for this train wreck. Firing Capers first accomplishes that. Even if nothing changes and it wasn't technically Capers fault it happened on his watch so you wouldn't feel bad for letting him go if it turned out Palmer was the problem.

Does that make any sense?

Kaiser Toro
09-13-2005, 02:48 PM
Now that I've had time to sit and simmer in my negativity for a while I'm starting to calm down a little bit. It still doesn't take much to set me off but I'm at least no longer trying to find a good strong beam in my house that could hold a rope.

I'd honestly like to see a Palmer led team on an interim basis. Send Dom packing, keep everyone below him if they're willing to stay and promote as needed. I'd just like to see us either continue to do what we've been doing (and then really go buck wild on the "Fire Palmer" bandwagon) or see things change a little bit as we try to get a little wild and crazy with the offense.

I'd like to know for certain who's responsible for this train wreck. Firing Capers first accomplishes that. Even if nothing changes and it wasn't technically Capers fault it happened on his watch so you wouldn't feel bad for letting him go if it turned out Palmer was the problem.

Does that make any sense?

there is something wrong with your medulla oblongata. :)

We are all searching for someone to be accountable, this is what happens when there is no leader on the team or on the staff. One vision, one voice and one heartbeat are usually good cliches that winning teams sing the praise of.

Texans86
09-13-2005, 03:36 PM
Did you notice Carr looked hurt in the second quarter? He threw like he couldnt extend right.

I noticed that a little bit. It really looked bad on one play when he was not under significant pressure, but threw the ball short like he didn't have enough power behind it. Carr has been know for having one of the strongest arms in the league and I think Gaffney even compared his strength to Favre's when he came over from Green Bay. Carr's performance was pitiful to say the least, but it looks like getting knocked in the head and on the ground might be taking either his vision away or some of his strength.

Porky
09-13-2005, 03:39 PM
Calm? I'll be calm when every person who was responsible for that debacle Sunday is standing in the unemployment line. That goes for Casserly to the guy who drives those silly trains ferrying players to and fro. :tomato:

TheOgre
09-13-2005, 04:08 PM
I can only imagine what the Broncos mb looks like after getting spanked by Miami.

texasguy346
09-13-2005, 04:11 PM
Love the Captain Insano avatar Herv. You're seriously going to have to start selling these things.

powda
09-13-2005, 04:28 PM
as much as people want to see carr rolled out of the pocket (and understandibly so considering the pocket) ive thought for sometime he dosent throw all that well on the move...

problem is..

hes always on the move wether its a designed rollout or hes shuffling over a few feet to evade someone.

and his mechancis regress after just 1 sack...even less then a sack.

a qb on the move with bad mechanics pretty much sums up what we've seen so far.

if thats not the explanation what is? how does a qb lose his accuarcy that bad over an offseason?

Hervoyel
09-13-2005, 04:31 PM
Love the Captain Insano avatar Herv. You're seriously going to have to start selling these things.


It was fun drawing the tats on his arms.

infantrycak
09-13-2005, 04:32 PM
Elevate Hoke to DC, or even head coach. That guy has Jeff Fisher potential, and he will bolt soon to an organization that can see his talent.

Hoke is the second coming, hmmmm? Could be, but I find it very curious that those who are hyping Hoke aren't saying anything about his (a) input into the P-Buc trade or (b) ability to coach P-Buc up to his potential.

Personally, I would like to know more about general defensive philosophy. Is he a Capers/Fangio zone blitzing/complex D guy, or is he a Phillips pin the ears back guy? I haven't seen anything about what he would do if he had more responsibility than the DB's have you?

Double Barrel
09-13-2005, 04:50 PM
One of Carr's knocks in College was holding on to the ball too long and locking on to receivers. He hasn't gotten any better.

yikes! And after three full seasons going into the fourth now, it's quite obvious that he's not changing those tendencies. I'm starting to have the same doubts as you, man. :(

Marcus
09-13-2005, 05:48 PM
Ok, I'm sure most everyone here has or will read this (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3349487) article in todays Chronicle. Would all of you do me the courtesy of telling me what you think about it here on this thread?
herv,

I haven't commented on the game until now because I wanted to take a couple of days and try to cool off. I think you know, and anyone else who has read my posts since the very beginning . . . knows how much I have defended Casserly, Capers, Palmer, Carr and everyone else, and tried to get everyone to be more patient.

Well, my patience has officially run out. It happened after I read his comments (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3351278) in the Chronicle today:

Capers said the reason the Texans didn't use the three-step drop they worked on in the offseason and training camp was because the Bills took it away.

"Their thought process was to take the quick passing game away because that's what they'd seen us throw a lot in preseason," he said. "They played two-deep coverage, and you have to be able to run the ball against two-deep coverage."
:hairpull: Huh? So you go back to the 5 and 7-step drops that got Carr beaten to a pulp all of last season? You take all that time working on a three-step drop in the offseason and preseason . . . and then decide not to use it in the regular season because other teams watched you do it? What kind of sense does that make?

I listen a lot to NFL Sirius Radio . . and Pat Kirwin put it in far better words than I ever could. He said that the Houston Texans are well on their way to turning David Carr . . into another Tim Couch.

Exascor
09-13-2005, 05:55 PM
Pat Kirwin put it in far better words than I ever could. He said that the Houston Texans are well on their way to turning David Carr . . into another Tim Couch.Note to self: When I finally get that 2 Billion dollars I've been saving up to buy the 33rd franchise in the NFL...don't let my GM pick a QB the first year. Make him wait until after the team is established.

Hervoyel
09-13-2005, 08:07 PM
That's pretty bad stuff Marcus. It reveals so much about where Capers is taking this team and what we have to look forward to this year, and probably next year too. To say that Buffalo "took it away" is no different than Capers coming out and saying "We surrender". That's very fundamental stuff there.

You don't do what the other team lets you do. For crying out loud what kind of non-philosophy is that? You impose your will on your opponent. You overpower them and execute your offense.

Like you I saw that today and couldn't believe my eyes. This board is littered with posts where people crucify Carr for talking like a loser in his interviews after the game. Every single one of those posters needs to understand where he's getting it from.

Capers is gone in my eyes. From this day forward I'm counting time until the Texans send this very nice, meticulous, honest, and honorable loser packing.

touttail
09-13-2005, 08:47 PM
They know they were hopeless and embarassing. Don't need us or the media telling them that.
They need to pick their heads up, or out of their you know what, and be an aggrevated and an agressive team Sunday.

That's what I will be looking for!!!!

bobby 119C :fans:

Porky
09-13-2005, 08:51 PM
I also saw his quote in the Chronic today, and almost coughed out my oatmeal through my nose. I thought WTF is he doing actually getting anywhere near coaching a team with that kind of losers mentality. I couldn't believe it. But, this is pretty much par for the course. I have been harping on his whole "take what the other team gives" us mantra for a couple of years now. Besides that, how in the h e double hockey sticks does a defense take away the three step drop anyway? Can someone explain that one to me? It's pretty simple really. You see you grab the ball from the center, and you go one step, two steps, three steps, that's a boy. See how easy it is. Pretty soon you'll be dancing like Fred Aistaire. So they played two deep coverage. How in the world does that take a quick passing game away? Does Capers expect us to swallow this garbage? Are the Texans the only team to see two deep coverage? BS. If Carr can't beat the damn coverage, put in a QB who actually has a clue. The crapola is getting deep. :goodnight

CajunTexan
09-13-2005, 09:15 PM
You know, one thing that does not get much run is the running game. I'm from Louisiana and bleed purple and gold, but I really do not believe DD is all that and a bag of chips at running back. I mean, I do not think he scares any defensive coordinator in the league. When he has gotten his yards, we have had a balanced attack. But, if a team puts 7 or 8 in the box DD goes nowhere.

Absolutely nothing was addressed in the off season to improve the offense. An offense that from year one should have been designed around Carr's strength's, strong arm, mobility a verticle offense has been tweeked to 3 step drops etc. They did not get the players to protect Carr and the verticle design, so they admitted defeat and changed it. No wonder Carr "felt like he was back in his rookie year."

Vinny
09-13-2005, 09:21 PM
Besides that, how in the h e double hockey sticks does a defense take away the three step drop anyway? Can someone explain that one to me? It's pretty simple really. It is simple. You press the receivers and shade your linebackers inside. This takes away the slant and the hitch. Your QB needs to be able to read coverages though...or you will throw a bunch of picks.

Iroquois Joe
09-13-2005, 09:22 PM
I would get rid of Palmer, Fangio, Capers, Casserly, and all of the assistants except Hoke. Elevate Hoke to DC, or even head coach. That guy has Jeff Fisher potential, and he will bolt soon to an organization that can see his talent.
First post boys. New coach, Our DC is a prime prospect who hails from Texas. That's right folks Mr.Jerry Gray. He's going to get snatched up next year by some smart GM or owner.

Dropped by to see how you all were, looks like every other teams board when they loose, a game.

Bills' was the same, especially after Frankenstien Bledsoe pulled off one of his spectacular goof ups that cost us a game, the Bills may lose more than they win this year, but regardless, I'll be sticking with my team. Stick with yours, it's only the opening game, 15 more to go.

Give your D credit. They did pretty well against the run and stood tall a couple of times in the red zone.

Porky
09-13-2005, 09:49 PM
It is simple. You press the receivers and shade your linebackers inside. This takes away the slant and the hitch. Your QB needs to be able to read coverages though...or you will throw a bunch of picks.

Ya, I knew their corners were pressing a lot. My post was somewhat toungue in cheek. I mean, they act like we are the poor picked on Texans. Nobody will let us have a touchdown easily. Boo freakin hoo. Do they expect us to believe other teams don't face press coverages, two deep zones, mixed coverages, various blitz packages, man-to-man coverage, rolling of safeties to one side, double coverages, and on and on. I am sick and tired of the same dog and pony show. It's the same old tired excuses game after game going on four years now. Enough, I say. News Flash to Capers and Cass - The Texans are not the only team to see these coverages, yet, you morons act like it is. I have concluded one of two things - a. the players (notably Carr) do not have the mental or physical capacity to learn to overcome these defenses, in which case those in charge of assembling the talent should be fired, or b. the coaches are not teaching or getting through to their charges, in which case, the coaches should be fired. I have a feeling it's a bit of both, so at this point, I am in favor of ditching the whole blasted lot of them. If I see another round of these weak excuses next week, I think I may undergo spontanous combustion. :bomb:

Kaiser Toro
09-13-2005, 09:54 PM
First post boys. New coach, Our DC is a prime prospect who hails from Texas. That's right folks Mr.Jerry Gray. He's going to get snatched up next year by some smart GM or owner.

Dropped by to see how you all were, looks like every other teams board when they loose, a game.

Bills' was the same, especially after Frankenstien Bledsoe pulled off one of his spectacular goof ups that cost us a game, the Bills may lose more than they win this year, but regardless, I'll be sticking with my team. Stick with yours, it's only the opening game, 15 more to go.

Give your D credit. They did pretty well against the run and stood tall a couple of times in the red zone.

Thanks for the spiritual words. :) I have been on the Gray bandwagon for a couple of weeks, but have not given up on Capers just yet. Just keeping an eye on the best option.

edo783
09-13-2005, 11:11 PM
herv,

I listen a lot to NFL Sirius Radio . . and Pat Kirwin put it in far better words than I ever could. He said that the Houston Texans are well on their way to turning David Carr . . into another Tim Couch.

I was saying that last season. I suspect we have ruined what COULD have been an eliet QB. That ol Mike Vick may not have been all that dumb coming out early to avoid the expansion team.

Marcus
09-13-2005, 11:40 PM
You know what else ***angers me greatly***?

I can't watch any other NFL game and just enjoy the competition for what it is? Instead, all I see is how the other teams' QBs have a chance to set up and look downfield.

Pathetic or what? It almost makes me wonder if I had more fun watching football when this city didn't have a team.

I said almost for those of you who are hard of hearing. :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
09-13-2005, 11:52 PM
I suspect we have ruined what COULD have been an elite QB.

That thought has crossed my mind many times the past 48 hours.

Is it something he can overcome?...with us? A new start somewhere else? idonno:

You know what else ***angers me greatly***?

I can't watch any other NFL game and just enjoy the competition for what it is? Instead, all I see is how the other teams' QBs have a chance to set up and look downfield.

Pathetic or what?

No, man, its not pathetic at all. I've thought the exact same thing watching all the other games. It is quite aggravating.

Same with our running game, too. :hairpull: