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View Full Version : Travis Johnson v. Derrick Johnson


the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 04:07 PM
Here's how they compare after week 1....

DJ - 8 tackles, 1 assist, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovered.

TJ - 2 tackles.

Derrick Johnson would not have been a good fit here... he actually makes tackles and plays.

BTW... The 4 starting LB's for the Texans had 10 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 fumble recoveries. And were playing against a weaker offensive line.

Elite
09-11-2005, 04:09 PM
hey but he wasnt cut for our system what a bunch of baloney we need play makers we missed out on a solid players thanks casserly hope you find anopther job in the league after you get canned this year.

Porky
09-11-2005, 04:10 PM
Nah, taking a playmaker like DJ makes no sense at all. :brickwall

DomDavis
09-11-2005, 04:11 PM
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.

BuffSoldier
09-11-2005, 04:11 PM
Here's how they compare after week 1....

DJ - 8 tackles, 1 assist, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovered.

TJ - 2 tackles.

Derrick Johnson would not have been a good fit here... he actually makes tackles and plays.

I think the coaching staff forgot they wanted the other Johnson :tomato:

Huge
09-11-2005, 04:12 PM
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.
Nice attempt but good luck trying to convince them otherwise.

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 04:12 PM
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.

We're talking about drafting a playmaker really. He is already better than any of the Texans linebackers.

DomDavis
09-11-2005, 04:15 PM
We're talking about drafting a playmaker really. He is already better than any of the Texans linebackers.

Doesn't change the fact that comparing statistics of a DT in a 3-4 to a linebacker is ridiculous.

Also, fwiw, TJ played better than any of our defensive linemen, imo.

tsip
09-11-2005, 04:20 PM
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.


...bet you're hoping for the day you don't have to make excuses for everything the Texans do....his point was not aimed at what posisition
the players play but their production---how do Greenwoods stats compare to DJ?

Porky
09-11-2005, 04:21 PM
IMO, Gary Walker played the best game by a dlineman. True, statistally it may not be a fair comparison. How about we just put those numbers in place of Moron Greenjeans.

Greenwood:

T-A SCK INT FF
2-3 0.0 0 0

Another brilliant offseason move by CC and Company. The Chickens are coming home to roost.

DomDavis
09-11-2005, 04:22 PM
...bet you're hoping for the day you don't have to make excuses for everything the Texans do....his point was not aimed at what posisition
the players play but their production---how do Greenwoods stats compare to DJ?

And his point is flawed because you cannot accurately measure a DT's impact in statistics.

BuffSoldier
09-11-2005, 04:23 PM
Ok who cares about TJ, just look at DJ, he played better than anyone on our defense excluding Dunta.

Vinny
09-11-2005, 04:23 PM
Also, fwiw, TJ played better than any of our defensive linemen, imo.Gary Walker had a great game. He was named player of the game on the post game show.

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 04:23 PM
...bet you're hoping for the day you don't have to make excuses for everything the Texans do....his point was not aimed at what posisition
the players play but their production---how do Greenwoods stats compare to DJ?

Derrick Johnson had 2 less tackles and 1 more sack than the Texans 4 starters at LB.

And he was playing against a better offensive line.

LoneStarState
09-11-2005, 04:32 PM
We're talking about drafting a playmaker really. He is already better than any of the Texans linebackers.

Casserly doesn't like to draft playmakers. He likes projects... Those who played one or two downs their entire college career.

Porky
09-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Casserly doesn't like to draft playmakers. He likes projects... Those who played one or two downs their entire college career.

Yes, and preferably a player who will also be making a position change as well.

TexSon
09-11-2005, 04:36 PM
Yes, and preferably a player who will also be making a position change as well.
and coming off a serious injury...

Fldvldog
09-11-2005, 04:36 PM
You all should have taken DJ. It was INSANE for you all to pass him up...

tsip
09-11-2005, 04:39 PM
And his point is flawed because you cannot accurately measure a DT's impact in statistics.

Why do they have offensive/defensive players of the game when you
are considering 11 different posisitions?


Somebody-somewhere is able to determine, for example, that a qb
out played a rb!

SESupergenius
09-11-2005, 04:42 PM
The Texans will be not be living this one down. It was a perfect fit, a local sensation that was very marketable in this region, especially when we were letting go a LB and had an immediate opening.

DomDavis
09-11-2005, 04:50 PM
Why do they have offensive/defensive players of the game when you
are considering 11 different posisitions?


Somebody-somewhere is able to determine, for example, that a qb
out played a rb!

There are specific statistics that can measure the impact of passing and rushing. There are some statistics that can measure the impact of defensive tackles, but their primary role (taking up blockers) is not a measurable statistic. It's simply a judgment call from watching and who you think made the bigger impact.

I wouldn't have been upset if the thread starter had said DJ played better today. It was the use of statistics as if they proved anything, because they're meaningless. It's the equivalent of saying a RB outplayed a QB because he had more rushing yards.

SESupergenius
09-11-2005, 04:52 PM
Well TJ is a backup, that right there should give you enough ammo. He won't be strong enough to spell anyone from their spot.

tsip
09-11-2005, 04:53 PM
The Texans will be not be living this one down. It was a perfect fit, a local sensation that was very marketable in this region, especially when we were letting go a LB and had an immediate opening.


...good post!

daiges7
09-11-2005, 05:04 PM
Thank god we didn't draft that guy. We have the linchpins of our 3-4 in place and this coaching staff and their 3-4 will be in place for ever so there is no need to draft the best linebacker of the last 5 years in college football.

WildBlackBear32
09-11-2005, 05:04 PM
You forgot to mention his forced fumble.

Dallashater
09-11-2005, 05:09 PM
How many fans on this messageboard that said DJ is overrated and would be a bust in the NFL will come forward and eat crow? My guess is zero.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 05:12 PM
Still fuming over the DJ non-pick. I just eventually shut up about it because we can't go back and change it so what's the point. The Texans blew that one bigtime.

Corrosion
09-11-2005, 05:15 PM
Still fuming over the DJ non-pick. I just eventually shut up about it because we can't go back and change it so what's the point. The Texans blew that one bigtime.


Well .... I think a lot of us are still irritated over that pick .....but no sense crying over spilt milk .... DJ did have a pretty nice game Vs. the Jets .... I wish the former Longhorn well .... and Hope that Travis Johnson proves Casserly to be a genius (Doubtful) :tomato:

Huge
09-11-2005, 05:22 PM
Joey Harrington - 11/20, 116 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

Apparently they drafted the wrong QB as well.

El Tejano
09-11-2005, 05:32 PM
DJ couldn't have helped us this game either though. You have to blitz the LB to actually hit him or sack him.

Grid
09-11-2005, 06:00 PM
first of all, DJs stats in HIS FIRST GAME in KC, have no bearing on whether or not he would have fit in our defense down here (if you want to call it a defense)

second of all, this post has absolutely no value whatsoever. If you really dont like the decisions we have made and want to see a change, whining about who we didnt draft is not going to get you anywhere.

WildBlackBear32
09-11-2005, 07:01 PM
Joey Harrington - 11/20, 116 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

Apparently they drafted the wrong QB as well.

Williams. Williams. Rogers. Jones. Pollard. Johnson.

Don't EVEN go there.

bigcarlos
09-11-2005, 07:09 PM
:brickwall

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 07:10 PM
Doesn't change the fact that comparing statistics of a DT in a 3-4 to a linebacker is ridiculous.

Also, fwiw, TJ played better than any of our defensive linemen, imo.

comparing stats? yes that is ridiculous.

Comparing the impact that player had on the game he was in? Not ridiculous at all.


TJ will never affect any game he's in the way DJ can affect a game. The Texans had a chance to take an elite linebacker and instead took a good lineman with far too high a pick. Interesting that a year before they gave up a bunch of picks to take "good" linebacker and sold him to us as having the potential to be elite.

It's all so much rubbish and we'll be half a decade digging out of the hole Casserly and Capers are putting us in.

Elite
09-11-2005, 07:11 PM
Well TJ is a backup, that right there should give you enough ammo. He won't be strong enough to spell anyone from their spot. good post


TJ couldnt even beat out seth payne wow that and awsome pick if i only had a timemachine and let casserly know he was gonna blow it again with that pick.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 07:14 PM
first of all, DJs stats in HIS FIRST GAME in KC, have no bearing on whether or not he would have fit in our defense down here (if you want to call it a defense)

second of all, this post has absolutely no value whatsoever. If you really dont like the decisions we have made and want to see a change, whining about who we didnt draft is not going to get you anywhere.

So if a fan really doesn't like the decisions we have made and wants to see a change he should shut up and keep his comments to himself? Is that what I understand you mean by "whining about who we didn't draft is not going to get you anywhere"?

The way I see it keeping my mouth shut and continuing to drink the Kool Aid isn't getting me anywhere either so I might as well say what's on my mind.

Errant Hothy
09-11-2005, 07:45 PM
I to am starting to question the pick of DJ over TJ. At the time I trusted the opinons of teh FO and other talent evaluators (Gossilin, mianly) and thought that DJ wouldn't work in Houston. Then Cass and Co pick up Greenwood, saying we needed more athletic MLBs, and I started to question things (mainly giving Cass credit for having a good, at the time, first round record)

After seeing the utter lack of anything from the MLBs today, I must agree with the general consenus here. How is drafting a back-up better then drafting a possible impact starter?

rittenhouserobz
09-11-2005, 08:00 PM
Do you think any of the veteran defesive players (Glenn, Foreman, and Sharper) made their decisions based on the direction the franchise is going? Well I will stick by the team. I will just accept that this will be a difficult year.

tsip
09-11-2005, 08:13 PM
first of all, DJs stats in HIS FIRST GAME in KC, have no bearing on whether or not he would have fit in our defense down here (if you want to call it a defense)

second of all, this post has absolutely no value whatsoever. If you really dont like the decisions we have made and want to see a change, whining about who we didnt draft is not going to get you anywhere.

will this be what you mean Monday?

powda
09-11-2005, 08:17 PM
will this be what you mean Monday?

so if we complain enough theres still a chance we'll be 1-0?

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:21 PM
Joey Harrington - 11/20, 116 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

Apparently they drafted the wrong QB as well.
Four words for you
ROY WILLIAMS MIKE WILLIAMS CHARLES ROGERS POLLARE

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 08:23 PM
Four words for you
ROY WILLIAMS MIKE WILLIAMS CHARLES ROGERS DALLAS CLARK

That's actually 8 words.

And I don't get it.

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:26 PM
That's actually 8 words.

And I don't get it.
WOW
If you dont get it you a...

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:27 PM
I was listing all there WR and TE
I accidently put Clark instead of pollard

tsip
09-11-2005, 08:30 PM
so if we complain enough theres still a chance we'll be 1-0?

sorry, but I think you are way in the minority right now with your :homer: thoughts, but--please,please--post this thought as a new topic!!

powda
09-11-2005, 08:34 PM
so you think its productive to complain? we're going to accomplish anything?

and when did you get the authority to dictate minority and majority?

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 08:36 PM
I was listing all there WR and TE
I accidently put Clark instead of pollard

Oh, okay. For a minute there I thought that Harrington was traded to the Colts.

RocKetHtown
09-11-2005, 08:36 PM
Boy the texans looked great today....there lb's r great :crying:

mes311
09-11-2005, 08:40 PM
I think DJ is a heck of a player and loved watching him at UT, but who would he have replaced in the starting lineup here for sure? By the draft, the Texans already had a $20 something Mill FA linebacker and there was no way they would put him on the bench and moving Wong to the inside has been coming for 2 years.

On another note, I thought TJ had a pretty good game. At least he didn't get any penalties called against him that I can recall. :rolleyes:

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:41 PM
Oh, okay. For a minute there I thought that Harrington was traded to the Colts.
sorry I was in a hurry :embarrass

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:47 PM
:idea: Just an idea. Im not a huge fan of the 3-4 at least not ours. So next years draft we trade up if we need to and pick a LT. Hopfully Dbrickshaw Ferguson or Eric Winston. Next we trade back into the first round and pick AJ Hawk. I dont know if Peek or Babin can play DE but its worth a try.
Our dline would be somthing like - Peek - Walker - TJ - Babin
Linbackers - AJ Hawk - Wong - Greenwood
Secondary would be the same

Huge
09-11-2005, 08:48 PM
Williams. Williams. Rogers. Jones. Pollard. Johnson.

Don't EVEN go there.

Four words for you
ROY WILLIAMS MIKE WILLIAMS CHARLES ROGERS POLLARE
So you're saying they should've drafted a WR instead of either Derrick or Travis Johnson?

Man, some people can't ever be pleased.

Bubbajwp
09-11-2005, 08:55 PM
So you're saying they should've drafted a WR instead of either Derrick or Travis Johnson?

Man, some people can't ever be pleased.
Im not saying that at all i like TJ alot and always did. Im just saying that he has a better oline and more weapons

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:01 PM
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 09:05 PM
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.

If Peek and Babin end up being half the player Johnson is it will be a surprise.

It's only one game, but it's obvious the guy was born a play maker. Isn't that one of the keys to having a successful 3-4?

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 09:12 PM
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.

And what if guys like Peek and Babin never go anywhere? Jeff Posey led this team in sacks our first season and he bailed after that season. You might have noticed him seperating Carr's shoulder in 2003 when we played in Buffalo or chasing Carr out of bounds today. Since he left nobody's even come close to matching his sack number in that first season. Steve Foley also bolted out of here in the blink of an eye and had himself quite a year in San Diego last season. Why do these guys, who can clearly play in our system and play well take off at the first opportunity? What do they know that you and I don't?

Personally I am beginning to question everything that I've been told about how this team is put together. I find it somewhat shocking that for a guy who's made his name on the 3-4 and rushing the quarterback, Dom Capers doesn't even seem to recognize the kind of LB he needs when one stands right in front of his face.

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:12 PM
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:17 PM
And what if guys like Peek and Babin never go anywhere? Jeff Posey led this team in sacks our first season and he bailed after that season. You might have noticed him seperating Carr's shoulder in 2003 when we played in Buffalo or chasing Carr out of bounds today. Since he left nobody's even come close to matching his sack number in that first season. Steve Foley also bolted out of here in the blink of an eye and had himself quite a year in San Diego last season. Why do these guys, who can clearly play in our system and play well take off at the first opportunity? What do they know that you and I don't?

Personally I am beginning to question everything that I've been told about how this team is put together. I find it somewhat shocking that for a guy who's made his name on the 3-4 and rushing the quarterback, Dom Capers doesn't even seem to recognize the kind of LB he needs when one stands right in front of his face.
If they never go anywhere then they were bad selections. Every team has those. One game doesn't make a career. Derrick Johnson could go on to be a bust despite his performance today. Unlikely but certainly a possibility.

But I agree with you. I am not sold on your organization and never was. Casserly has been known to look like a complete ***** during the draft but you couldn't tell that to anybody here 4 years ago because all they saw were the 3 Super Bowl rings he was wearing.

Capers is no different. The guy had 1 winning season in four while coaching Carolina before he was fired.

But to say passing on Derrick Johnson was a mistake based off the first game of his career is being a tad bit shortsighted (understatement).

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 09:19 PM
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?

Not big enough to play on the outside??? He's just as big (6'4 - 250) as Peek and Babin.

Doesn't have the game to play inside??? He's got to be better than Greenwood. That guy has been a ghost since he got here.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 09:20 PM
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?

So is it his 6'4" height that's a problem? Babin's 6'3" and Peek is 6'2". Is it the 242 lbs that he's listed at? The NFL lists Babin at 259 and Peek at 238. Now I understand Peek has put on some weight and the Texans have him at 250 even.

So for 8 pounds he's not big enough to play outside in the 3-4? Not even worth trying at the position. You don't think he might be able to hold another 8 pounds on that frame maybe?

I don't buy any of this. Obscure and arcane football knowledge is one thing and often Cass & Co. can just tell me to accept something at face value and I'm left with no alternative but to do so. Telling me 8 pounds makes a difference between being able to start for you and not being worth drafting is utter bull, and not the "Go Toro!" kind.

LBC_Justin
09-11-2005, 09:20 PM
there is no point in even talking about this. It is over it, it is done. All we can do is pray TJ turns into a super star.

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 09:23 PM
there is no point in even talking about this. It is over it, it is done. All we can do is pray TJ turns into a super star.

Okay... sorry. No point bringing up the mistakes this organization has made.

All we can do is pray. Good point.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 09:23 PM
I'm not basing it on one game. This game hadn't been played when I started complaining about it on the day they didn't draft DJ. At the time all I got back in reply was "UT HOMERS CAN'T SEE PAST DJ!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!" and junk like that.

I don't even like UT! I just saw a bad linebacker who the Texans could definitely use. They could still use him.

But it's too late and Wonger is right. No talking bad about the mistakes of the past.

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:25 PM
My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 09:27 PM
My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.


Yep, save the Kool Aid for another day.

Errant Hothy
09-11-2005, 09:31 PM
And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.

Doubtful, espically with Ware still on the board. For Dallas Ware fit the bigger need, a playmaking OLB for their 3-4. It would have been intersting to see what would have happened if both Ware and Merriman were gone by the time the Cowboys picked.

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:34 PM
Doubtful, espically with Ware still on the board. For Dallas Ware fit the bigger need, a playmaking OLB for their 3-4. It would have been intersting to see what would have happened if both Ware and Merriman were gone by the time the Cowboys picked.
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.

Errant Hothy
09-11-2005, 09:37 PM
But why play him at OLB? Espically when we (the Texans fans) were told that we need guys at ILB that could make plays from sideline to sideline. Now if that wasn't DJ iat UT I don't know what is.

I think thats been the point trying to be made, by myslef and others.

ComstockLode
09-11-2005, 09:37 PM
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.

He is faster then Greenwood and is bigger than greenwood.... how does that not translate to a better inside linebacker.

Casserly said we were getting younger and faster, how the hell does DJ not fit that description?

ledzeppelin229
09-11-2005, 09:39 PM
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.

Isn't that exactly what they got Greenwood for? Except I have to think DJ will be a much better player.

Hervoyel
09-11-2005, 09:39 PM
He is faster then Greenwood and is bigger than greenwood.... how does that not translate to a better inside linebacker.

Casserly said we were getting younger and faster, how the hell does DJ not fit that description?

Exactly! Exactly!

Inside, outside, how in the world do you justify passing up this guy after the kind of changes you made this off-season to your linebacking corps?

It just flat out defies explanation.

ComstockLode
09-11-2005, 09:42 PM
Exactly! Exactly!

Inside, outside, how in the world do you justify passing up this guy after the kind of changes you made this off-season to your linebacking corps?

It just flat out defies explanation.

Another wonderful thing to notice:

With Greg Robinson last year the scheme was for the defensive linemen to take up blocks, and for DJ to run wherever he wanted. He didnt have gap responsibilities....

Is that not similiar to what an inside linebacker in a 3-4 is supposed to do?

Huge
09-11-2005, 09:42 PM
I'll re-iterate...

My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.

the wonger need food
09-11-2005, 09:55 PM
Put the guy at Strong Safety for all we care. We just need a play maker on defense. Someone with a nose for the football that can change games.

Errant Hothy
09-11-2005, 09:56 PM
On another note, go ask teh Jets if they think Vilma isn't he right size to play MLB, casue that was the big knock against him as well.

ComstockLode
09-11-2005, 11:04 PM
Put the guy at Strong Safety for all we care. We just need a play maker on defense. Someone with a nose for the football that can change games.

Funny you say that, McCree had a huge hit today...

cred
09-12-2005, 03:08 PM
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.


I guess that is why Bryant Young got 3 sacks as a DE in the 3-4 with San Francisco

SESupergenius
09-12-2005, 04:47 PM
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.
And so where do we get 3-4 linebackers from, only colleges that use 3-4 systems? Saying DJ doesn't fit the 3-4 is like saying TJ doesn't fit the 3-4 either, both came from 4-3 systems. If a LB isn't running around (See Wong, Sharper, Foreman, Babin, Peek, etc) then I guess he just rushes the passer?? Please you are way off on this one.

the wonger need food
09-12-2005, 04:52 PM
And so where do we get 3-4 linebackers from, only colleges that use 3-4 systems? Saying DJ doesn't fit the 3-4 is like saying TJ doesn't fit the 3-4 either, both came from 4-3 systems. If a LB isn't running around (See Wong, Sharper, Foreman, Babin, Peek, etc) then I guess he just rushes the passer?? Please you are way off on this one.

Yes, just a lame attempt to justify ANOTHER horrible personnel decision. They're adding up quickly.

H-Town Steel
09-12-2005, 04:57 PM
The Texans will be not be living this one down. It was a perfect fit, a local sensation that was very marketable in this region, especially when we were letting go a LB and had an immediate opening.


couldn't have said it better myself-

the wonger need food
09-19-2005, 09:23 AM
T. Johnson - 1 Tackle
D. Johnson - 7 Tackles, 1 Assist (and broke up several passes)

Too bad the guy doesn't fit our system...

touttail
09-19-2005, 09:27 AM
DJ has a much better supporting cast around him than AJ, plus being a LB has more mobility. Blitz packages(something the Texans don't seem to have), a defense that is making things happen.

Bobby 119C :brickwall

texan279
09-19-2005, 09:34 AM
You cannot compare stats between a LB and a defensive lineman...

beerlover
09-19-2005, 09:36 AM
T. Johnson - 1 Tackle
D. Johnson - 7 Tackles, 1 Assist (and broke up several passes)

Too bad the guy doesn't fit our system...

you forgot he also recovered a fumble and a TD was called back because a Raider was holding him on a long Jordan run, thats the difference in the game :)

Blake
09-19-2005, 09:37 AM
You cannot compare stats between a LB and a defensive lineman...

I dont know why you fight them so much. They want stats. They want highlights. They dont want a hard nose player who clogs up the middle, so others can make plays.

Compairing a OLB, to a DE in tackles, is like compairing a TE to a WR, in yardage gained. You just dont understand. And thats ok with me.

exclude
09-19-2005, 09:39 AM
We're talking about drafting a playmaker really. He is already better than any of the Texans linebackers.

He's only better than all of our Lbs because we have a ****** DLine. There both not mutually exclusive.

the wonger need food
09-19-2005, 09:39 AM
You cannot compare stats between a LB and a defensive lineman...

My bad...

D. Johnson - 7 Tackles, 1 Assist

Babin, Peak and Greenwood - 8 Tackles, 1 Assist

texan279
09-19-2005, 09:41 AM
My bad...

D. Johnson - 7 Tackles, 1 Assist

Babin, Peak and Greenwood - 8 Tackles, 1 Assist

DJ - 7 tackles 1 assist

Wong- 11 tackles 7 assists

Hervoyel
09-19-2005, 09:43 AM
Yes, DJ does have a much better supporting cast around him than TJ (I assume you meant TJ and not AJ on that touttail). The thing is in order to get a better supporting you have to start somewhere. The first good guy anywhere has a lousy supporting cast.

Come to think of it wasn't Kansas City the team that had no defense? How could KC have a better supporting cast than TJ when KC's crummy defense is legendary?

bckey
09-19-2005, 10:01 AM
DJ - 7 tackles 1 assist

Wong- 11 tackles 7 assists

Just think if they were playing together on the same team.

DJ and Wong 18 tackles 8 assists

William.carter
09-19-2005, 10:04 AM
Here's how they compare after week 1....

DJ - 8 tackles, 1 assist, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovered.

TJ - 2 tackles.

Derrick Johnson would not have been a good fit here... he actually makes tackles and plays.

BTW... The 4 starting LB's for the Texans had 10 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 fumble recoveries. And were playing against a weaker offensive line.


WHEN WILL THIS DEBATE DIE!

look at the defensive scheme he's playing in and look at ours and honestly tell me you think he'd be as effective here. This arguement has been a lame duck from the get go.

You told us so! We get it! Is that what you want to hear? Is that what will make this useless babble go away.

Why not contribute something more productive than an I told you so that can't even be proven. No one said DJ wasn't a good player or athlete. It was simply a question of where he would fit in in our defensive scheme. The GM and Coaching staff obviously figured that he wouldn't. And as far as drafting TJ, with Gary-I hurt my (insert body part here)-Walker riding the pine again after this weeks injury, depth on the D-line looks like a pretty good idea.

Huge
09-19-2005, 10:05 AM
DJ - 7 tackles 1 assist

Wong- 11 tackles 7 assists
"crickets chirping"

Yes, DJ does have a much better supporting cast around him than TJ (I assume you meant TJ and not AJ on that touttail). The thing is in order to get a better supporting you have to start somewhere. The first good guy anywhere has a lousy supporting cast.

Come to think of it wasn't Kansas City the team that had no defense? How could KC have a better supporting cast than TJ when KC's crummy defense is legendary?
Kansas City added Patrick Surtain, Sammy Knight and Kendrell Bell to their defense.

Houston added Phillip Buchanon, Marlon Greenwood and lost Jamie Sharper and Aaron Glenn.

But you're right about having to start somewhere. And if you look around the league at the successful teams running the 3-4 (New England and Pittsburgh), you'll see that they started on the DL.

But again, I'll re-iterate...

My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.

Hervoyel
09-19-2005, 10:12 AM
This will never die.

Tony Boselli never playing a down will never die. Bennie Joppru being injured for the rest of his natural life will never die. Giving up 5 first day picks for Buchanon and Babin will never die. Getting David Carr sacked 76 times in his rookie year will never die.

Look william.carter, there are things that teams do that stay with them forever. People will talk about them for as long as people talk about the team. Some things in this world are ripe for being forever second guessed. Taking TJ when DJ fell to the Texans will be one of those. Get used to it because you're going to see it every year for as long as the two of them play in this league. Then, after they're gone you'll see it brought up every time the Texans do something even a little bit questionable in the draft.

Thinking that this will end is like watching the playoffs and thinking you won't hear someone mention the Buffalo comeback. It's a nice dream but it has zero chance of happening.

And for the record the Texans were fools to pass on DJ when he fell to them. ;)

the wonger need food
09-19-2005, 10:13 AM
WHEN WILL THIS DEBATE DIE!

It's not really a debate. The Texans had the opportunity to get a play making linebacker which is something this team does not currently have. The guy is obviously a better player as a rookie than anyone on the Texans entire defense, excluding Robinson.

It just points out one of many personnel mistakes this organization has made and these mistakes are not going to magically go away.

Hervoyel
09-19-2005, 10:13 AM
Huge, you're going to be saying that a lot this season.

My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.

Marcus
09-19-2005, 10:32 AM
Thinking that this will end is like watching the playoffs and thinking you won't hear someone mention the Buffalo comeback. It's a nice dream but it has zero chance of happening.

God! That is so true. Whenever I look back at the Oilers, that horrific day in Buffalo always leaps to the front.

What a wonderful legacy they left, huh?

the wonger need food
09-26-2005, 09:32 AM
KC v. Denver tonight. It should be fun watching Derrick Johnson continue his campaign for ROY. He should get a couple of sacks and about 10 tackles tonight. The kind of performance that would not fit the Texans' system.

Huge
09-26-2005, 10:09 AM
Demarcus Ware - 9 tackles, 1 sack
Marcus Spears - 5 tackles, .5 sack

What the hell was Parcells/Jones thinking!?!?!? They could've drafted Derrick Johnson and his production would been greater than both of our first round picks combined!


Kerry Rhodes - 20 tackles, 1 INT (4th Round)
Brodney Pool - 7 tackles, 0 INTs (2nd Round)

No wonder Cleveland is at the bottom of the food chain every year. Their FO is chocked full of dummies also.


Carnell Williams - 434 rushing yards, 2 TDs
Ronnie Brown - 224 rushing yards, 1 TD

And Williams was the 3rd RB taken? Jumanji!!!

SESupergenius
09-26-2005, 10:52 AM
Derrick Johnson - 17 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 Fumble Recovery

Kailee Wong - 18 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Jason Babin - 6 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Morlon Greenwood - 10 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Antwan Peek - 7 Tackes, 1 Sack, 0 Fumble Recoveries

All together now, DERRICK JOHNSON IS BETTER THAN ANY LINEBACKER WE HAVE.

If you want to compare apples to apples, where does DJ rank among LOLB?

Huge
09-26-2005, 11:22 AM
I didn't realize Wong had that many tackles.

That gives him more than Chad Brown or Monty Biesel (Patriots' ILBs), more than James Farrior or Larry Foote (Steelers' ILBs) and more than Derek Smith or Jeff Ulbrich (49ers' ILBs).

That's pretty good company.

metalmike
09-26-2005, 11:35 AM
Derrick Johnson all the way baby. Can't miss with a Longhorn. Bring him to Houston with Roy Williams and Cedric Benson. Then go out and draft Vince Young. I know it'll never happen.

SESupergenius
09-26-2005, 12:07 PM
I didn't realize Wong had that many tackles.

That gives him more than Chad Brown or Monty Biesel (Patriots' ILBs), more than James Farrior or Larry Foote (Steelers' ILBs) and more than Derek Smith or Jeff Ulbrich (49ers' ILBs).

That's pretty good company.
So Derrick Johnson is better than all those you mentioned? I am not sure where you are going with this.

Huge
09-26-2005, 12:16 PM
So Derrick Johnson is better than all those you mentioned? I am not sure where you are going with this.
Nowhere really...just wasn't aware that Wong's standing was that good among the other ILBs around the league.

Although one could argue that Wong's stats are a reflection of the job that's being done up front by guys like Walker, Payne, and yes...Travis Johnson.

the wonger need food
09-26-2005, 02:13 PM
Good article on the Johnson that was passed over...

DJ Article (http://www.nflplayers.com/news/rookie.aspx)

SESupergenius
09-26-2005, 02:23 PM
Nowhere really...just wasn't aware that Wong's standing was that good among the other ILBs around the league.

Although one could argue that Wong's stats are a reflection of the job that's being done up front by guys like Walker, Payne, and yes...Travis Johnson.
well considering we've scored 14 points in 2 games, yea I'd say that has a lot to do with it, whereas KC's offense is failry good and keeps the defense off the field longer.

ComstockLode
09-26-2005, 09:58 PM
Just thought I might point out, that KC has been rotating into a 3-4 defense off and on against the broncos. But no DJ is not a good fit.

ComstockLode
09-26-2005, 10:27 PM
DJ just knocked out rod smith.... Hope he is alright

ComstockLode
09-26-2005, 11:13 PM
What a difference he made with the Chiefs defence... LMAO ... Broncos ate them up, they looke like a high school unit. Talk about a bad beat down..... :texflag:

The chiefs looked like the texans today. Everything went wrong with them. DJ didnt play well with 5 tackles, but he did get another FF giving him 2 for the season.

Davis37
09-26-2005, 11:23 PM
The chiefs looked like the texans today. Everything went wrong with them. DJ didnt play well with 5 tackles, but he did get another FF giving him 2 for the season.

He is still more productive than Babin and Peek put together... :brickwall

DocBar
09-27-2005, 07:13 AM
IMO, Gary Walker played the best game by a dlineman. True, statistally it may not be a fair comparison. How about we just put those numbers in place of Moron Greenjeans.

Greenwood:

T-A SCK INT FF
2-3 0.0 0 0

Another brilliant offseason move by CC and Company. The Chickens are coming home to roost.
Well the chicken (P-Burnt) got put on the roost. The other guys just seem confused and overmatched most of the time. Jack Lambert, Jack Ham and Mel Blount need to be brought in and show this D how to be aggressive, intimidating and just plain mean. I want to see someone other than Peek and D-ROB knocking the snot out of people.

texan279
09-27-2005, 08:49 AM
The chiefs looked like the texans today. Everything went wrong with them. DJ didnt play well with 5 tackles, but he did get another FF giving him 2 for the season.

Where did you get your stats from? DJ had 2 tackles and 2 assists last night, and no FF...

Davis37
09-27-2005, 01:14 PM
Where did you get your stats from? DJ had 2 tackles and 2 assists last night, and no FF...

where did you get your stats from? I watched the game and saw his FF...

WildBlackBear32
09-27-2005, 01:26 PM
3-11-KC14 (8:01) J.Plummer pass to C.Adams to KC 12 for 2 yards (D.Johnson). FUMBLES (D.Johnson), ball out of bounds at KC 12.

texan279
09-27-2005, 11:44 PM
where did you get your stats from? I watched the game and saw his FF...

NFL.com...I just went back and checked and they added the FF...

outofhnd
09-28-2005, 01:40 AM
DJ probably would not have been a good Outside Backer in our 3 -4 because he was never a Defensive End in college. He never had to consistently beat an Offensive lineman to get to the QB. Both Babin and Peek were Defensive Ends, now called "tweeners" He would not have been running free like he is in the KC Defense.

Plus after 2 games you really dont have enough scouting footage on him to see his weaknesses. Granted his production is extraordinary... yea you can argue He might have been a great linebacker here... You can present statistics, facts, personal info... You can say all you want but look at the successful linebackers from the Capers D.

Greg LLoyd - Linebacker, Lamar Lathon - Former DE, Kevin Greene - Former DE, Pat Swilling - Former DE, Rickey Jackson - Former DE... Is it just me or do I see a trend?

Personally I like the TJ pick... He wasnt supposed to beat out our veterans he was brought in here to inject youth into the D-line and allow us to rest the D-line we have now, without having a huge talent level drop off. From what I have seen he has done that. I don't see him getting manhandled by linemen, In fact I have seen him push his lineman into the backfield ona few occasion he needs to learn how to tie up more than one O-lineman by firing into the gap between not just taking on the man.

I love how you question draft choices... the same team you critcize for drafting Babin, Joppru and TJ, Is the same ones that drafted DD, AJ, Drob.

Lots of teams passed on DJ... Do you think a lot of other teams are kicking themselves for passing on Randy Moss?, Tom Brady?, Emmitt Smith?

Heck in Philly I thought they were gonna string the eagles up for drafting McNabb instead of Ricky Williams. How did that turn out?

And for those who suggest Harrington was the correct QB choice, wasn't his job in question this year when the Lions brought in Jeff Garcia? Yea I am sure kicking myself for not drafting a guy that now has 3 big time young NFL rec. prospects, but still only puts up 110 yards. I can only imagine the success he would have here.

:violin for all you post draft critics who didnt get the player they wanted..

Question though - If DJ came here and totally sucked but TJ went elsewhere and was a monster would you still say we should have drafted DJ?

Elite
09-28-2005, 02:00 AM
Ok Charlie Casserly lol:

lucky13
09-28-2005, 09:49 AM
saw DJ on monday night- he is a monster. (seems to have spent his entire signing bonus on 'roids, but that is another matter as far as i am concerned).

casserly is a disgrace for picking TJ over DJ.

Bubbajwp
09-28-2005, 09:54 AM
saw DJ on monday night- he is a monster. (seems to have spent his entire signing bonus on 'roids, but that is another matter as far as i am concerned).

casserly is a disgrace for picking TJ over DJ.
Seriously can we just drop this subject. We all know capers and casserly have made bad decisions. Can you at least wait until TJ gets a chance to show what he can do.

Huge
09-28-2005, 09:57 AM
Seriously can we just drop this subject. We all know capers and casserly have made bad decisions. Can you at least wait until TJ gets a chance to show what he can do.
Not going to happen, Bubba. Most aren't smart enough to realize production isn't always translated by stats.

By their logic, teams would be better off playing 7 linebackers instead of having 3/4 widebodies taking up salary space w/o contributing anything.

'Cause it's the linebackers that get all the tackles, sacks, etc.

Nice try though. Just don't hold your breath for results.

SESupergenius
09-28-2005, 10:02 AM
How do you know DJ wouldn't have made a good 3-4 linebacker? Here ya go, here's a few LB's in college that are, wouldn't you know it, LB's on an NFL team using the 3-4 system:

James Farrior - LB
Jamie Sharper - LB
Larry Foote - LB
Earl Holmes - LB
Chad Brown - LB
Ben Leber - LB
Randall Godfrey - LB

They were NOT tweeners, but were solid linebackers. Whoever said DJ was to be draft just for his blitzing? The cover can cover from end to end with good speed....ala Greenwood. Imagine a linebacking corps of
Wong, DJ, Sharper and Haggans or
Boulware, Bell, Sharper and DJ, or
Wong, Bell, Sharper, and DJ or
Boulware, Bell, DJ, Haggans if you want to revamp the LB corps.

Please, the possibilities were endless. All the while we had our starting DL set, Walker, Payne, Smith. that's a lot of money tied up into the line already, too much if you ask me since our LB's are the featured set. Then you add first round TJ to the mix and it looks like it could break the bank. Instead of gutting our team of veterans we should have brought in more talented players from the draft and used free agency to our fullest advantage. Bring back Sharper, Glenn, Wright and McCree, trade up for Luis Castillo( a pick I was big on before the draft and rated better than TJ) with our 2nd and 3rd rounds picks instead of P-Burnt, sign Bell, Boulware or Haggans instead of Greenwoods and our defense would have been very solid. With all bumblings in the off season our defense is worse than last year.

Huge
09-28-2005, 10:18 AM
Whoever said DJ would/should be drafted because of his blitzing has nothing to base it on. Oh, he can run a fast 40? He must be a good blitzer.

DJ finished his career at Texas with almost as many INTs (9) than sacks (10.5). I don't see how that translates into "great blitzer".

The biggest reason why he didn't blitz often (and the same reason why he's not a fit for a 3-4 defense) was his style of play. It has nothing to do with size so hold all "But he's 6'3, 246...that's bigger than Peek". Just about every scout said he had a bad habit of running around blockers. And they were right. Not to say he wasn't effective at it...but he did do it. You can get by with doing that in college and to a lesser extent, this league.

But line him up outside in a 3-4 and let him go up against OTs without a DE on the end or put him inside where he gets to deal with OG's not occupied by the front 3? It's not a fit.

If you disagree, fine. But don't pretend you have presented an argument based on his first 3 games that proves you're correct.

bckey
09-28-2005, 10:44 AM
I think it is more of a reach to draft a de out of college and make a tweener out of him. You don't know how he will adjust to the lb position. With DJ at least you are drafting a lb to play lb.

SESupergenius
09-28-2005, 11:01 AM
I looked at DJ to play more the ILB than an OLB. I don't see anywhere really that he was touted as the speed pass rusher that opponents to us not drafting him make him out to be. Could he not have easily replaced Foreman? Good God Yes. Do we still need pass rushing LB's? Yeppers. Ray Lewis doesn't blitz the QB often, he's more of a speed tackler and in the field kind of guy, he is an ILB/MLB. They are just different positions. In fact all positions in the 3-4 are not the same and your really can't compare them too much. To say that DJ was not a fit in the 3-4 is not a good term to use, is he not a good fit for the 3-4 OLB? There I would say no, but definitely he would make a good 3-4 ILB. State your case otherwise.

Huge
09-28-2005, 11:12 AM
Yeah, that's a good point. I've been saying he's "not a fit" in the 3-4. What I should've been saying is that he's a "better fit" in a 4-3.

And while he could've easily replaced Foreman, so could a ton of other LBs that weren't drafted in the first round.

SESupergenius
09-28-2005, 12:15 PM
The combination IMO of TJ and Greenwood is not as good as DJ and a possible player we could have traded up in Castillo. The jist of it is that DJ would be an immediate starter taking over Foreman's slot and Castillo would have been groomed and added depth.

the wonger need food
10-02-2005, 07:08 PM
DJ - 10 tackles

TJ - 1 tackle

DJ had more tackle than Travis Johnson, Orr, Peek, Greenwood, Iaone and Payne combined.

If only the system were a fit.

Huge
10-02-2005, 07:12 PM
If only you had a clue.

Scooter
10-02-2005, 07:23 PM
someone please explain to me why he wouldnt work as a 3-4 ILB. he's too fast? tackles too well? too big? made an immediate impact?

tj's getting pushed around by a single blocker.

Bubbajwp
10-02-2005, 07:39 PM
someone please explain to me why he wouldnt work as a 3-4 ILB. he's too fast? tackles too well? too big? made an immediate impact?

tj's getting pushed around by a single blocker.
Try he isnt a pass rusher. Which is the biggest problem on our Defense. DJ wouldnt help with this. TJ will its simple.

the wonger need food
10-02-2005, 07:43 PM
someone please explain to me why he wouldnt work as a 3-4 ILB. he's too fast? tackles too well? too big? made an immediate impact?

tj's getting pushed around by a single blocker.

You'll get a hundred excuses before the night is over. He's not big enough, he's not a pass rusher, etc.

Bottom line - Another personnel mistake by the organization.

Bubbajwp
10-02-2005, 07:53 PM
You'll get a hundred excuses before the night is over. He's not big enough, he's not a pass rusher, etc.

Bottom line - Another personnel mistake by the organization.
How about we just completly forget about it the draft is long gone. I think I speak for most Texans fans when I say im sick and tired of hearing you B!t3h about DJ and Carr and how were the worst team ever. Didnt you mom every tell you if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all.

Scooter
10-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Try he isnt a pass rusher. Which is the biggest problem on our Defense. DJ wouldnt help with this. TJ will its simple.

made no sense whatsoever. TJ's not a pass rusher, cant do his job of tying up multiple blockers, and cant even get leverage against a single blocker. how is he helping?

DJ's bigger than greenwood, faster, and more of a playmaker. we've yet to force a turnover on the entire defense and dj's recorded 2 himself. i'm really having trouble finding the arguement. so many folks dogged the dj backers because there was no chance he'd fall to us, now they're saying he doesnt fit the system. i can see it now ... he becomes a free agent down the line and yall say we shouldnt look at him because he smells funny.

Bubbajwp
10-02-2005, 09:15 PM
made no sense whatsoever. TJ's not a pass rusher, cant do his job of tying up multiple blockers, and cant even get leverage against a single blocker. how is he helping?

DJ's bigger than greenwood, faster, and more of a playmaker. we've yet to force a turnover on the entire defense and dj's recorded 2 himself. i'm really having trouble finding the arguement. so many folks dogged the dj backers because there was no chance he'd fall to us, now they're saying he doesnt fit the system. i can see it now ... he becomes a free agent down the line and yall say we shouldnt look at him because he smells funny.
Ok well go with this scenario. We dont sign Greenwood because we want DJ. All the other teams know we want DJ so they trade ahead of us and take him wich means D Polk is starting. Then Gary walker gets hurt and Ioane starts.
Just because TJ doesnt put up numbers doesnt mean he isnt doing what he gets paid to do. The war is won in the trenches. If we didnt draft a dline this year when would we. G Walker gets hurt every year and will be retiring soon. Payne is well past his prime and will be retiring in a few years. R Smith isnt exactly young. We already have a young group of linebackers.

beerlover
10-02-2005, 10:56 PM
you dont force drafts or select lesser talent, if it be home grown or whatever. Casserly ****'ed up point blank, heck I would much rather have Pollack. you can still get optimum value on the D-Line in the latter rounds ala the O-Line. was'nt Chris Canty a 4th rd pick of the Cowboys?

the point is this draft set the Texans back at least one year which may manage to install an entirely new regime because the 5 year plan has failed :homer:

SESupergenius
10-03-2005, 12:11 AM
If we didnt draft a dline this year when would we. G Walker gets hurt every year and will be retiring soon. Payne is well past his prime and will be retiring in a few years. R Smith isnt exactly young. We already have a young group of linebackers.
The D-line should have been addressed in the offseason or through the draft, not necessarily with our 1st pick. We could have drafted DJ and drafted a DL in the 2nd round or traded up to get a player who has equal or better talent than TJ. I would mind us having traded up to get Castillo, who's stock fell because of bogus drug rumors, instead of trading up to get ***cough*** ***cough*** P-Burnt.

Youngstown Colt
10-03-2005, 01:36 AM
I would mind us having traded up to get Castillo, who's stock fell because of bogus drug rumorspI didn't catch what was so bogus about admitted steroid use.

Vinny
10-03-2005, 07:39 AM
I didn't catch what was so bogus about admitted steroid use.
He took a banned substance but not an anabolic steroid. You won't find what he took on the Federal illegal scheduled drug table. You can find it at GNC though.

Texas_Thrill
10-06-2005, 10:57 AM
I think my issue is not with the drafting of TJ (ok so some of it is.)

My issue more lies with the Texans logic that was put out there of why we didn't draft DJ. Because he played in a 4-3 in college he couldn't play in a 3-4 in the pros. But then we draft a DT who played in a 4-3?

You can argue that DT is different but a DT in a 4-3 plays very different scheme than a DT in a 3-4 so its all relative.

A playmaker is a playmaker and a football player is a football player. Coach him up in your system and LET HIM GO!!!!

Oh well maybe our NEW staff next year will do something sensible with the #1 pick in the draft.

Vinny
10-06-2005, 10:59 AM
Very few Colleges run a 3-4 and he is supposed to supply some pass rushing skills from the DT position...although he needs more time to get used to the league. If we only drafted players from the systems we run we would only draft from a few teams.

Texas
10-06-2005, 11:14 AM
Just so you non beleivers can test it. Buy Madden 06. Create a 99 Overall DT. Throw him on the line. Then watch the stats after each game and notice he doesnt place in the top 50 the whole season for tackles/sacks/fumble recovery average, but yet he still makes the Pro-Bowl. My Point is like what has already been said, his job is to tie up linemen and open opportunities for the LB's.

Texas_Thrill
10-06-2005, 11:21 AM
We aren't arguing over TJ's job.

What most of us are saying is why pass up a proven playmaker.....NCAA RECORD FOR FORCED FUMBLES.

We need a playmaker in our front seven and yet when an opportunity to get one....we pass up b/c he played in a 4-3.....yet draft a DT who played in one as well. :brickwall

Huge
10-06-2005, 11:27 AM
Gino Toretta was a proven playmaker in college as well.

Should I run down a list of other examples of players that excelled in college but proved that doesn't guarantee anything in the NFL?

WildBlackBear32
10-06-2005, 11:30 AM
Just so you non beleivers can test it. Buy Madden 06. Create a 99 Overall DT. Throw him on the line. Then watch the stats after each game and notice he doesnt place in the top 50 the whole season for tackles/sacks/fumble recovery average, but yet he still makes the Pro-Bowl. My Point is like what has already been said, his job is to tie up linemen and open opportunities for the LB's.


There's an awesome way to get a real life indication on a player's impact...

El Tejano
10-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Actually I did that and he had 20 sacks coming off the bench.

infantrycak
10-06-2005, 11:41 AM
My issue more lies with the Texans logic that was put out there of why we didn't draft DJ. Because he played in a 4-3 in college he couldn't play in a 3-4 in the pros. But then we draft a DT who played in a 4-3?

That wasn't the logic. At Texas DJ was asked to drop into coverage more than pass rush. When he did get sacks etc. it was as a blitzer rather than a pass rusher--something Casserly makes a big distinction on. DJ was also noted to have trouble getting off blocks which spells more trouble in a 3-4 system than a 4-3 where there is an extra guy to soak up blocks in front. Basically because of the lack of pass rushing moves he wouldn't have played OLB here. At ILB the supposedly concerned with his ability to stop the run. I totally understood the concerns about DJ playing OLB here. Where the Texans lost me was picking up Greenwood who seems like a coverage speed not necessarily physical run stuffing ILB--hmmm sounds like DJ. But anyway the logic wasn't just that he came from a 4-3--they thought it out or mis-thought it out much more than that.

tsip
10-06-2005, 02:21 PM
What's his face... has really turned around the Chief's defence... Gee just 60+points, given up in last two games.. Wow did we miss having what's his face, how will we live. :texflag:

...wow, only one player on KC's defense instead of eleven

wrestler4life
10-06-2005, 02:25 PM
The freaking draft has happened already! Why are we still contemplating this?

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 05:08 AM
The freaking draft has happened already! Why are we still contemplating this?

Derrick Johnson is a possibly one of the best players at his position in just his rookie season. At the same position the Texans sorely need playmakers.

I don't think anything is being contemplated. The point is... management made another personnel mistake. One of many.

texan279
10-07-2005, 05:30 AM
Wong (3 games) 26 total tackles, 9 assists, 1 sack

DJ (4 games) 31 total tackles, 4 assists, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovery

I don't know how this organization can go on without DJ...Do some realize we had our LB's in place before the draft? We had already signed Greenwood and do you think anyone anywhere thought that DJ would have fallen to us?

Huge
10-07-2005, 06:25 AM
Derrick Johnson is a possibly one of the best players at his position in just his rookie season. At the same position the Texans sorely need playmakers.

I don't think anything is being contemplated. The point is... management made another personnel mistake. One of many.
I think managment's intentions were to draft a playmaker along the defensive line (where a playmaker was needed more than at LB). When you compare Derrick's to Travis' stats coming out of college, I think they accomplished that (because before the draft, it's all you have to go on)...

Derrick - 19 TFLs, 2 sacks, 8 QB hits
Travis - 18 TFLs, 2.5 sacks, 12 QB hits

Now if you want to label Travis a "mistake" after 3 games, by all means do so.

William.carter
10-07-2005, 06:33 AM
Wong (3 games) 26 total tackles, 9 assists, 1 sack

DJ (4 games) 31 total tackles, 4 assists, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovery

I don't know how this organization can go on without DJ...Do some realize we had our LB's in place before the draft? We had already signed Greenwood and do you think anyone anywhere thought that DJ would have fallen to us?

Well said. It bares repeating... We had our LB's in place before the draft. Why blow your wad on a player that would be considered redundant at that time and not fill a needed role when there were players on the board who did.

Not taking anything away from DJ. The kid is talented. But our D-line would still be without depth or a future, and we'd have another high paid LB working behind what has so far been a marginally effective front 3.

Honoring Earl 34
10-07-2005, 06:44 AM
:texflag: DJ is a good player but like TJ they are still rookies . Its not like DJ is the best player on the 85 Bears defense .
To call DJ the best at his position is crazy . Some act like he's on the some line as Lawrence Taylor . What if DJ is doing the same as Sharper and making tackles 4 yards up the field . I would take Ware over DJ right now .

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 06:45 AM
Well said. It bares repeating... We had our LB's in place before the draft. Why blow your wad on a player that would be considered redundant at that time and not fill a needed role when there were players on the board who did.

Not taking anything away from DJ. The kid is talented. But our D-line would still be without depth or a future, and we'd have another high paid LB working behind what has so far been a marginally effective front 3.

This is part of the problem... "we had our linebackers in place before the draft." Their evaluations concluded that they had enough talent at linebacker and they obviously do not.

If they had their LB's in place as you stated, why did they sign Zeke Mereno after the draft? Why did they draft Pettway?

William.carter
10-07-2005, 06:52 AM
If they had their LB's in place as you stated, why did they sign Zeke Mereno after the draft? Why did they draft Pettway?


Inexpensive DEPTH.

Huge
10-07-2005, 07:12 AM
This is part of the problem... "we had our linebackers in place before the draft." Their evaluations concluded that they had enough talent at linebacker and they obviously do not.

If they had their LB's in place as you stated, why did they sign Zeke Mereno after the draft? Why did they draft Pettway?
Using a first on Travis Johnson and then signing/drafting two other LBs tells me they recognized they needed help in both areas. But there was a higher priority in upgrading the defensive line.

Given the players at each position at the time, are you going to argue with this?

the wonger need food
10-07-2005, 07:23 AM
Using a first on Travis Johnson and then signing/drafting two other LBs tells me they recognized they needed help in both areas. But there was a higher priority in upgrading the defensive line.

Given the players at each position at the time, are you going to argue with this?

Yes I will.

How many times have we heard the term "playmaker", especially when discussing the LB position in a 3-4. The Texans do not have a playmaker at any 4 of these positions. So your logic is to spend more money on a lineman to essentially clog up the middle when that money could have been spent on someone that makes plays and changes games.

The fact remains that DJ is immediately an impact player, in any system. TJ, is just a fat lineman whose job is to clog up the middle.

Huge
10-07-2005, 07:34 AM
Yes I will.

How many times have we heard the term "playmaker", especially when discussing the LB position in a 3-4. The Texans do not have a playmaker at any 4 of these positions. So your logic is to spend more money on a lineman to essentially clog up the middle when that money could have been spent on someone that makes plays and changes games.

The fact remains that DJ is immediately an impact player, in any system. TJ, is just a fat lineman whose job is to clog up the middle.
Based on their college statistics...

Derrick - 19 TFLs, 2 sacks, 8 QB hits
Travis - 18 TFLs, 2.5 sacks, 12 QB hits

How can you say the Texans didn't draft a playmaker along the defensive line? Oh that's right, you've got a ton of history (first 4 weeks of this season) to go on.

eriadoc
10-07-2005, 07:57 AM
:deadhorse

exclude
10-07-2005, 08:22 AM
Derrick Johnson is a possibly one of the best players at his position in just his rookie season. At the same position the Texans sorely need playmakers.

I don't think anything is being contemplated. The point is... management made another personnel mistake. One of many.

Hmm, he didn't look too good against Denver though, bit on fakes like there were steaks.

And fyi, Odell Thurmann is the best rookie ILB at the moment, not DJ.

TheOgre
10-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Gino Toretta was a proven playmaker in college as well.

Should I run down a list of other examples of players that excelled in college but proved that doesn't guarantee anything in the NFL?

How about a very recent example, Jason White QB at Oklahoma?

Malloy
10-07-2005, 08:33 AM
The fact remains that DJ is immediately an impact player, in any system. TJ, is just a fat lineman whose job is to clog up the middle.

This must be one of the most stupid comments I've ever read around here.

Honoring Earl 34
10-07-2005, 08:41 AM
:tv: DJ is the best tackler since Joe Montana :heh: I bet the Texans would be 0 and 3 with DJ .
So anyone come up with a solution . Unless DJ can coach or pick talent he's not the answer . The bad news is thats what we need .

Bubbajwp
10-07-2005, 09:38 AM
Derrick Johnson is a possibly one of the best players at his position in just his rookie season. At the same position the Texans sorely need playmakers.

I don't think anything is being contemplated. The point is... management made another personnel mistake. One of many.
Your joking right.
Yes I will.

How many times have we heard the term "playmaker", especially when discussing the LB position in a 3-4. The Texans do not have a playmaker at any 4 of these positions. So your logic is to spend more money on a lineman to essentially clog up the middle when that money could have been spent on someone that makes plays and changes games.

The fact remains that DJ is immediately an impact player, in any system. TJ, is just a fat lineman whose job is to clog up the middle.
Theirs just one problem. That is we already spent millions of dollars on our young linebackers why pay DJ or any of our other linebackers millions to sit onthe bench. Ok your probably thinking that's what we were paying TJ to do any ways but with the injury problems and age of G Walker and S Payne the Texans needed a young angry defensive lineman. Which is exactly what they got. IMO they need to address the dline in next years draft to. hopefully one of the two third round picks.

Bubbajwp
10-07-2005, 09:41 AM
Yes I will.

How many times have we heard the term "playmaker", especially when discussing the LB position in a 3-4. The Texans do not have a playmaker at any 4 of these positions. So your logic is to spend more money on a lineman to essentially clog up the middle when that money could have been spent on someone that makes plays and changes games.
The fact remains that DJ is immediately an impact player, in any system. TJ, is just a fat lineman whose job is to clog up the middle.
Your playmakers are not going to be making any plays if the dline cant keep the oline off of them.

Vinny
10-07-2005, 09:43 AM
:tv: DJ is the best tackler since Joe Montana :heh: I bet the Texans would be 0 and 3 with DJ .
So anyone come up with a solution . Unless DJ can coach or pick talent he's not the answer . The bad news is thats what we need .Except when he is getting run over by Lamont Jordan right? That play was a snapshot of why some are not all sold on DJ.

Honoring Earl 34
10-07-2005, 09:50 AM
:texflag: DJ , TJ and Carr are just pawns in the game . Anyone of these players could be really good in the right situation . I'm not sure the Texans are a good situation for anyone exept punters and kickoff returners right now .

Vinny
10-07-2005, 10:04 AM
I'm not sure the Texans are a good situation for anyone exept punters and kickoff returners right now .heck, they can't even get on the field with this team.

Honoring Earl 34
10-07-2005, 10:12 AM
:texflag: OK who was the best rookie of all time?

Huge
10-07-2005, 12:39 PM
Eric Dickerson - 1,808 yards rushing, 18 TDs

cuppacoffee
10-07-2005, 02:34 PM
Eric Dickerson - 1,808 yards rushing, 18 TDs

:penalty: Not someone from the Cowboys glorious past? :jk:

the wonger need food
10-17-2005, 11:39 AM
DJ led his defense to another victory yesterday... 8 tackles, 2 assists, always around the ball.

TJ had another career day with 2 tackles.

Reddevil63
10-17-2005, 11:45 AM
Let it go already, D linemen arent going to have as many tackles as LB's. We got who we got.

WildBlackBear32
10-17-2005, 11:49 AM
Let it go already, D linemen arent going to have as many tackles as LB's. We got who we got.

Most DLinemen dont hurt themselves on late hits on QBs though...

throwANDREtheBALL
10-17-2005, 12:07 PM
yah, someone should tell TJ that his "sideways sitting technique" for tackling isn't a good idea to hurt the QB. What was he thinking ? The QB was down for a couple seconds already and then he comes in and hits him/attempts to sit on him but sits too soon and gets winded. He looked as dumb as Capers coaching.