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View Full Version : Will we finally see the real 3-4 this Sunday ?


nunusguy
09-08-2005, 09:41 AM
"But they're not going to be special until they start smacking quarterbacks on third down. It's what the 3-4 is based on. And it's what Peek does best."
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3344451

GP
09-08-2005, 10:41 AM
No. The 3-4 is horrible. Even if it shows up, it still blows.

My top rants:

1. The utter lack of "return on investment" regarding the 3-4, which seems to be soooooooo cool and neat right now. We're getting pushed around, and the 3-4 asks its down linemen (all THREE of them) to tie up multiple offensive lineman so the LBs can "make the play" on the ball carrier/QB/etc. Right.

2. Cutting players who showed with their performance that they EARNED a roster spot, but were shown the door. What's the motivation to play well during the preseason when you just get cut anyway? And there's two players who definintely earned a roster spot this year, but were cut.

3. The Texans inability to utilize a TE. If you ain't gonna' pass more than 1 ball a game to the TE....why even have one? Keep players like Swinton in a TE roster spot, and get rid of the traditional TE that we don't even use unless it's a run blocking situation. But even then, just having our TE out there shows the opponent we're probably running the ball. It's no big secret that we're one of the worst teams in the NFL in the utilization of a TE as a receiver. Some teams (the more successful ones) actually use their TE in a consistent manner and it pays off by keeping opposing defenses off balance as to whether they drop a LB to cover the TE, etc.

Anyway...back to the topic at hand: No, the 3-4 should be retired like Jerry Rice.

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 10:58 AM
No. The 3-4 is horrible. Even if it shows up, it still blows.

My top rants:

1. The utter lack of "return on investment" regarding the 3-4, which seems to be soooooooo cool and neat right now. We're getting pushed around, and the 3-4 asks its down linemen (all THREE of them) to tie up multiple offensive lineman so the LBs can "make the play" on the ball carrier/QB/etc. Right.

2. Cutting players who showed with their performance that they EARNED a roster spot, but were shown the door. What's the motivation to play well during the preseason when you just get cut anyway? And there's two players who definintely earned a roster spot this year, but were cut.

3. The Texans inability to utilize a TE. If you ain't gonna' pass more than 1 ball a game to the TE....why even have one? Keep players like Swinton in a TE roster spot, and get rid of the traditional TE that we don't even use unless it's a run blocking situation. But even then, just having our TE out there shows the opponent we're probably running the ball. It's no big secret that we're one of the worst teams in the NFL in the utilization of a TE as a receiver. Some teams (the more successful ones) actually use their TE in a consistent manner and it pays off by keeping opposing defenses off balance as to whether they drop a LB to cover the TE, etc.

Anyway...back to the topic at hand: No, the 3-4 should be retired like Jerry Rice.


Yea I'm sure the Steelers and Patriots are thinking of ditching the 3-4. :loser

Walter Belhaven
09-08-2005, 10:59 AM
I've never really been a fan of the 3-4. It's always seemed too susceptible to the run for my liking. Plus, the whole idea of the 3-4 is to get pressure on the QB which we never seem to be able to do.

Yes, some of the great defenses in recent NFL history have been 3-4 defenses but each one has had a STUD OLB:

-Steelers had Greg Lloyd
-Giants had LT
-Chiefs had D Thomas
-85 Bears ran the 46, which was a variation of the 3-4 if I'm not mistaken. Of course, they had HOF'ers all over the field.

Without a pass rush, I just don't see much benefit from it.

Also, let's face it. Capers isn't going to be here forever. When he departs, we're (in all probability) going to have to rebuild the defensive personnel around the 4-3. Sort of like when the Oilers scrapped the Run and Shoot and had no TE's on the roster.

powda
09-08-2005, 11:07 AM
i'd like to think we will see "our" 3-4 finally...a controlled blitz crazy caper's defense. but i doubt it. losman has wheels and mcghee is quick to the corner. fangio made the comments himself. i think our olb's will blitz ofcourse but i think theyre going to spend a lot of time in the flats and on a contain blitz.

i would expect to see wong and greenwood blitz a lot inside however.

that being said im thrilled at the prospect of peek having an oppurtunity to start ,and i look forward to watching how he does when they do let him go at the qb.

in defense of our 3-4, we had 3 players at new postions last year in our secondary ,and we've had a trend of injured defensive linemen. to top it off...wong is not and never will be a great blitzer...babin was a rookie learning on the go...and foreman was horrible in coverage. the defense didnt really have the luxury of calling a blitz non stop.

when 3/4's of your secondary is either a rookie or at a new poistion the dc has to protect them with lb's in coverage. we may or may not have better talent in our lb core this year but we do have more speed and versatility.

aggiechance
09-08-2005, 01:03 PM
They better blitz this kid or he will make us look bad.... I mean any 3rd stringer can make this defense look bad with the amount of time we give QBs on 3rd downs. :challenge :challenge :challenge

I agree...I'd rather force this kid to beat DRob or PBuc while he is running for his life than give up 6 yd pass plays all day with plenty of time to throw. After watching the A&M game, I'm NEEDING to see some really aggressive defensive plays.
:texflag:

HardKnockTexan
09-08-2005, 01:10 PM
With the right personel on the field the 3-4 defense, and variations of it, is the toughest to play against and gameplan for. In the past 3 seasons we ran the 3-4 even though we didnt have the personel. We were always lacking in some area. Our secondary has always been pretty solid, except for Matt Stevens ofcourse. Last season we finally got the right Defensive Linemen in place with the addition of Robaire Smith. He's had 2 trainingcamps and a full season now to learn his new role. Our secondary is one of the best in the league on paper, hopefully this will translate into great play on the field this year. This is the first season that we've had the Linebackers that are needed in a 3-4. Our slowest L-B (Wong) was the fastest 2 seasons ago. Foreman was out of possition. Sharper was out of possition and that's why both of them are gone. I think we will all be in for a pleasant suprise this season. But honestly, I have a hard time critisizing my home team and always expect the best from them.

jr0ck
09-08-2005, 02:42 PM
No. The 3-4 is horrible. Even if it shows up, it still blows.

My top rants:

1. The utter lack of "return on investment" regarding the 3-4, which seems to be soooooooo cool and neat right now. We're getting pushed around, and the 3-4 asks its down linemen (all THREE of them) to tie up multiple offensive lineman so the LBs can "make the play" on the ball carrier/QB/etc. Right.

2. Cutting players who showed with their performance that they EARNED a roster spot, but were shown the door. What's the motivation to play well during the preseason when you just get cut anyway? And there's two players who definintely earned a roster spot this year, but were cut.

3. The Texans inability to utilize a TE. If you ain't gonna' pass more than 1 ball a game to the TE....why even have one? Keep players like Swinton in a TE roster spot, and get rid of the traditional TE that we don't even use unless it's a run blocking situation. But even then, just having our TE out there shows the opponent we're probably running the ball. It's no big secret that we're one of the worst teams in the NFL in the utilization of a TE as a receiver. Some teams (the more successful ones) actually use their TE in a consistent manner and it pays off by keeping opposing defenses off balance as to whether they drop a LB to cover the TE, etc.

Anyway...back to the topic at hand: No, the 3-4 should be retired like Jerry Rice.

WOW, i'm with SES on the whole :loser thing, but let me go into a little more detail:

1. so your infering that three 300+ DLmen can't "tie up" an offense line and create gaps that the LB's are supposed to fill? [dr evil]riiiight[/dr evil]

well it can, and more importantly, DOES happen,
sincerely,
ted washington, casey hampton, richard seymor, wince wilfork, ty warren, arron smith and last but not least (for this short list) kimo von oelhoffen

...and that is just a fraction of this years gap filling 3-4 linemen. to say that the texan's don't execute the 3-4 to it's strengths is one thing, to say "retire" a proven coaching philosphy is entirely different. this just in...THE 3-4 WORKS!

*the following is OT but is in response to the above qouted post*

2. so the texans are the rouge team in the NFL that has to decide on roster cuts with a handful of player's on the cusp of being adequate talent in the league? this complaint makes me go :brickwall because i think if you, gp, were a fan of any team you would have this complaint because this descion is made in 31 other places in the NFL. if and i would venture to say that everybody who EARNED a roster spot is on the team. :shrug: ...but that's just me.

3. bruener, murphy and rivers will do just fine this year. they will serve the same purpose as 80% (unofficial estimate) of the rest of the league's TE's, block and catch 10-35 check down/dump off reads by seasons end. we've seen all of them catch the ball (bruener had a couple 10+ yd gains last pre-season...which just shows he is capable, NOT that he will) and our top three on the depth chart are all adeqaute blockers.

come to think of it, i'm kinda regretting repsonding to your last two rants because it's hard for me to see where they fit in a thread about 'seeing the 3-4 defense work in houston'...

rmartin65
09-08-2005, 03:10 PM
the 3-4 is good if executed properly

Double Barrel
09-08-2005, 03:54 PM
I'm not the biggest fan of the 3-4, either, but heck, it's what our team has implemented. So we'll have to deal with it.

I've read recently that Coach Capers said this is the first year that we've had the personel to run his 3-4 defense. It's all about speed. While I always liked Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman, let's be honest, these dudes are not going to get faster.

The jury is out. Come Sunday, I expect to see lots of QB hurries, knockdowns, pass blocks, and poor decision making by the Bills offense because of the disruption our speed and quickness is causing. And I want to see at least 5 good sacks by this defense.

I don't think we've really showed much in pre-season, so the Bills don't have much game tape to review. This will work to our advantage as Capers pulls out the surprises and their QB loses focus from getting hit from all sides.

At least, that's how I've got it working in my head.... :thumbup

tsip
09-08-2005, 04:10 PM
"Yea I'm sure the Steelers and Patriots are thinking of ditching the 3-4. "

I love these kinds of statements!! Question. Do the Steelers/Pats achieve
desireable results with their 3-4? YES. Do the Texans? NO. Are the Steelers
and Pats perineal(sp) winners? YES. Are the Texans? NO. I could go on
but I've just got to savor the logic of this post, as IMO it is exactly what
is wrong with comparing the Texans to other teams. Oh, almost forgot-
Cowboys are using the 3-4 for the first time this year which means-
according to 'certain' posters- that it will take years to learn and 'gel'
(favorite word) in this defense plus get all the right players,etc.etc.--hate
the Cowboys so I'm looking forward to a losing season from them because
of their new defense.

the wonger need food
09-08-2005, 04:24 PM
The Texans have not had the personnel to run a 3-4 since day 1. Specifically a mammoth NT, a hard-hitting, sure tackling SS and playmaking LB's.

The philosophy here is completely skewed. Bring players in and train them to do things opposite of their strengths. Then overpay them and hope that they will perform up to their salary.

tsip
09-08-2005, 04:25 PM
"I've read recently that Coach Capers said this is the first year that we've had the personel to run his 3-4 defense."

...so our defense will be good this year or our we waiting for the time
to 'gel' statement?

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 04:47 PM
"Yea I'm sure the Steelers and Patriots are thinking of ditching the 3-4. "

I love these kinds of statements!! Question. Do the Steelers/Pats achieve
desireable results with their 3-4? YES. Do the Texans? NO. Are the Steelers
and Pats perineal(sp) winners? YES. Are the Texans? NO. I could go on
but I've just got to savor the logic of this post, as IMO it is exactly what
is wrong with comparing the Texans to other teams. Oh, almost forgot-
Cowboys are using the 3-4 for the first time this year which means-
according to 'certain' posters- that it will take years to learn and 'gel'
(favorite word) in this defense plus get all the right players,etc.etc.--hate
the Cowboys so I'm looking forward to a losing season from them because
of their new defense.
And I love these crazy takes. I only put out the Steelers and Pats because they are very successfull at using the 3-4, so in essence of this argument, the 3-4 systems does work. Under Capers who coached the Steelers 3-4 he was successfull. There are quite a few other teams that use the 3-4 as well, I didn't figure I needed to explain that you since I thought the Steelers and Patriots were enough ammo, but I guess you need more. San Diego uses, and hey lookie there, they made the playoffs. You can't blame the scheme if the scheme is repeatly providing good results with teams that use it. I really doubt our team would be any better if we were using a 4-3, but hey I guess you know more than Capers.
Did it ever occur to you that building a team, regardless of defensive scheme, isn't all roses. If Dallas has a poor season, you are going to pin it on the defense instead of the offense whos weapons include a faulty line, Bledsoe and Keeshawn?? You are very funny, please keep posting you make me crack up. :yap

tsip
09-08-2005, 05:32 PM
And I love these crazy takes. I only put out the Steelers and Pats because they are very successfull at using the 3-4, so in essence of this argument, the 3-4 systems does work. Under Capers who coached the Steelers 3-4 he was successfull. There are quite a few other teams that use the 3-4 as well, I didn't figure I needed to explain that you since I thought the Steelers and Patriots were enough ammo, but I guess you need more. San Diego uses, and hey lookie there, they made the playoffs. You can't blame the scheme if the scheme is repeatly providing good results with teams that use it. I really doubt our team would be any better if we were using a 4-3, but hey I guess you know more than Capers.
Did it ever occur to you that building a team, regardless of defensive scheme, isn't all roses. If Dallas has a poor season, you are going to pin it on the defense instead of the offense whos weapons include a faulty line, Bledsoe and Keeshawn?? You are very funny, please keep posting you make me crack up. :yap

amazing, your post that the Pats/Steelers should abandon the 3-4 was
in respone to a poster saying the Texans should let it go, right? His
reasoning was the lack of success by the Texans using the 3-4--Pats
and Steelers have had success...if the Texans had that same success,
there would be no complaints with the 3-4, so please explain the logic/
reasoning of your post. If 31 NFL teams have success with the 3-4, sure
keep it....but, if yours is the 1 team that has failed, do you still keep it
to maintain the status quo? Personally, I don't care what defense the
Texans run if it translates into win but you'll never hear me defending
losing team logic against winning teams...some folks want results, some
folks make excuses---you tend to get what you want...bottom line is
the standard of effort/results a person will accept....and the time frame
in which desired results must be achieved. And, if my place is on Comedy
Central for sticking by my post, that's fine--but, when I'm wrong, I'll admit
that too--just show me some results... :yahoo:

Grid
09-08-2005, 05:35 PM
Some day down the road.. I wouldnt mind seeing us implement a defense like the Falcons/Buccaneers/Colts run. That being a 4-3 that focuses on smaller, and faster defenders.

However.. I like the 3-4, and have no problem with us running it. Especially since Capers is one of the masterminds behind the modern 3-4 defense.

Yall say that every effective 3-4 had a stud OLB, but the Patriots dont have one.. the steelers dont have one. They have good OLBs but no one who is setting the league on fire.

I also disagree that the 3-4 is weak against the run. In theory it is supposed to be.. but it hasnt shown itself to be so far.

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 05:59 PM
The logic is easy, other teams, not just the Steelers and Patriots mind you, run the 3-4 and several teams have converted from a 4-3. Ever figure out that our 3-4 defense is not as good because we are barely now getting it all together? It's not so hard to fathom considering our organization just started out 3 years ago. In fact it was our 3-4 defense that has kept our records respectable considering all of our offensive woes and defensive injuries. We are using a cancer from another team as our primary starter, we are using a deep round rookie SS, our best CB is in only his second year, 3 of our linebackers were not in the same position they were last year, with our 1st pick in the draft we get a backup lineman. And all this drama has happend year after year.

yea sure, it must be the 3-4.

HJam72
09-08-2005, 07:23 PM
I wish we had run a 4-3 from the start. I just prefer it to the 3-4, but I don't like changing things that don't need to be changed and the 3-4 is a good, legitimate defense. Switching to a 4-3 would mean having to change personnel and giving everyone time to gel. More time waisted. More losing. You can win with either Defense when you get the right players and some experience and depth.

I think the Cowboys are making a mistake trying to switch to a 3-4, although I'm not a Cowboy fan. Just be good at what you do.

marroncito
09-08-2005, 07:44 PM
As far as I understand it, the 3-4 operates on 3 principles. First, that the offensive line is dominated at the Center. Your Nose Tackle has to drive the center into the backfield on every play. This opens up holes in the line and collapses the pocket at the same time. Usually you'll have at least one other down lineman rushing the passer, usually in a different direction than the NT. This forces the Oline to adapt to him as well. The second principle is disgusing were the 3rd and 4th rusher are coming from. If done correctly, it will throw the off tackles out of wack. Besides the center, the Oline shouldn't know who they'll be blocking each down. In the 4-3 it's pretty obvious. Guards pick up DT's. The center helps doulbe or pick up the MLB. The tackles hand the DEs. It's pretty much the same every down. In a well executed 3-4, the tackles should never know who their blocking so that they're off balance. For example. The NT and RDE rush. the ROLB blitzes toward the center. The RILB blitzes toward the edge trying to end around the RT. Who does the RT block? The ROLB lined up closer to him or the RILB coming off the edge? Either way, who does the RG block the ROLB or the RDE. The center will be locked up with the NT who should be driving him back and flushing the QB. There are blocking schemes against the 3-4. Even with them, the point is that the Olinemen have to think every play and the D can just attack. If you think too much in football, you lose. The Olinemen have to know who they're going to pick up on any particular blitz. The 3rd principle of the 3-4 is to disguise coverages. It works great against quick passing attacks that try to get the ball out. If the QB misreads the coverage at all, bad things can happen to the ball. Also, it's got to throw a QB off for a second to see a DE covering your TE's dump off route. Yea you could probably get it in there, but it makes the QB heistate. If I counted correctly, that's 3 so I'll leave it at that.

infantrycak
09-08-2005, 07:56 PM
It works great against quick passing attacks that try to get the ball out. If the QB misreads the coverage at all, bad things can happen to the ball.

This is something a lot of people miss. Look at the top LB's making INT's and you will see the 3-4 heavily represented--Donnie Edwards, James Farrior, Bruschi & Wong. Wong & Peek combined from the ROLB position for 4 INT's last year. Not bad at all. All of Jax's LB's combined for 1 INT last year and all of the Tacks LB's combined for 2 last year.

Scooter
09-08-2005, 11:09 PM
i agree with grid, i'd much rather see a fast 4-3 than a 3-4 with players who dont really fit the role thrown in it. correct me if i'm wrong, but we have sufficient personnel to do this with the line being peek/smith/johnson/babin and the lb's being greenwood/wong/anderson(?). DE's would just need to tack on 10-15lbs in the offseason to be in the typical freeney-rice-kea.rse mold.

i know he used to be a titan, but is kear.se really so bad that his name is filtered? :hide:

Vinny
09-08-2005, 11:47 PM
We just expanded our word filter due to tons of people working around the filters.... I just adjusted it so Kearse shows up now.

tsip
09-09-2005, 12:38 AM
...so, the Pats used a 4 man frt the entire game plus they didn't beat
the run to death when it was obvious the Raiders were keying on the run--
talk about adjustments--anxious to see how Capers game plans for the
Bills!

Vinny
09-09-2005, 01:03 AM
If you look at the games from last year you should take note that we were in a 4 man line quite often as well.

ATX
09-09-2005, 01:10 AM
If you look at the games from last year you should take note that we were in a 4 man line quite often as well.

Isn't that what we do for our nickel package? 2 DL, 4 LB(2 OLB lining up on the line), and 5 DBs.

Vinny
09-09-2005, 01:17 AM
Yeah, it's been pretty common for the last few years. Depends on the package and the opponent's formations and personel.

Scooter
09-09-2005, 02:16 AM
...so, the Pats used a 4 man frt the entire game plus they didn't beat
the run to death when it was obvious the Raiders were keying on the run--
talk about adjustments--anxious to see how Capers game plans for the
Bills!

that's the knock on capers. he has a gameplan and he's going to plow through it whether it's working or not. i really think belichick doesnt have a game plan going into each game ... he has an idea. plans are written, ideas are free flowing and change to the situation. it doesnt hurt that belichick has complete trust in his coaches. seeing that kid calling plays was fantastic ... it looked to me as if belichick decided how things needed to be done and trusted his coaches & players to do it. i believe capers was the right man to help build this team, but as far as gameday is concerned, he's near the bottom of the list of guys i'd want calling the shots. we have 5 capable receivers and a running back that's fantastic, but not comperable to dillan (yet), although if our running game is being shut down we wont see 4-5 widouts the entire length of the field to expose the defense. nor will we see 6 men on the line on first down, or 4 guys blitzing the left tackle. (the best play i saw from the pats was where they had 3 linemen shifted right, and 4 OLB/DB's stacked 2x2 on the weakside ... the front two dropped back, the second pair blitzed wide, the DT pushed right, and the outside DE pulled towards the center ... the DE and a DB came in untouched). our receivers are as talented as NE's, and (without bruschi) so is our LB core ... however we wont have anything resembling their success until the coaching staff is on par (and our front 5+carr figure things out).

dont get me wrong, i think capers is a great coach and a great teacher. however, his strengths are monday through saturday, and it appears to me atleast that he wont let his sunday guys do their job.

oops ... i try not to ramble here but there it goes. hopefully there's some sense in there.

edited for spelling

tsip
09-09-2005, 03:43 AM
that's the knock on capers. he has a gameplan and he's going to plow through it whether it's working or not. i really think belichick doesnt have a game plan going into each game ... he has an idea. plans are written, ideas are free flowing and change to the situation. it doesnt hurt that belichick has complete trust in his coaches. seeing that kid calling plays was fantastic ... it looked to me as if bellichek decided how things needed to be done and trusted his coaches & players to do it. i believe capers was the right man to help build this team, but as far as gameday is concerned, he's near the bottom of the list of guys i'd want calling the shots. we have 5 capable receivers and a running back that's fantastic, but not comperable to dillan (yet), although if our running game is being shut down we wont see 4-5 widouts the entire length of the field to expose the defense. nor will we see 6 men on the line on first down, or 4 guys blitzing the left tackle. (the best play i saw from the pats was where the had 3 linemen shifted right, and 4 OLB/DB's stacked 2x2 on the weakside ... the front two dropped back, the second pair blitzed wide, the DT pushed right, and the outside DE pulled towards the center ... the DE and a DB came in untouched). our receivers are as talented as NE's, and (without bruschi) so is our LB core ... however we wont have anything resembling their success until the coaching staff is on par (and our front 5+carr figure things out).

dont get me wrong, i think capers is a great coach and a great teacher. however, his strengths are monday through saturday, and it appears to me atleast that he wont let his sunday guys do their job.

oops ... i try not to ramble here but there it goes. hopefully there's some sense in there.

It is a fact that Capers and Bellichek are known as defensive gurus. The
difference is that Bellichek 'sees' the entire team, Capers doesn't. Too,
though known as a strict/tough/rigid coach, Bellichek is not set in 'concrete'
in his ways like Capers. Sure, both men like to run and both like ball con-
trol but-unlike for Capers-it is not a passion/necessity/ or full game
requirement. No, for Bellichek, winning is all that matters and he will use
any means/method/play or players to achieve that goal. Not Capers. Too,
the Patriots 'practice' game time which means there is little they will see
in the game they did not already see in practice. Bellechik never puts blame
on the players but is quick to pass out the credit and excuses are not
allowed or accepted from anyone in Patriot Nation. The press runs into a
brick wall when they try to get Bellichek to use an excuse for losing a game.
More than once on the Pats website, he has said every team has its
problems/injuries/new players,etc,--that's a given--how you choose to deal
with them is not...here's hoping the Texans can begin to turn it around! Is Capers going to lead us to the 'promise land?' I don't know but...somewhere,
a clock has got to be ticking.