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keyfro
09-04-2005, 11:13 PM
to me this offense is wrong for carr...carr is more of a deep ball passer like kerry collins...ironic capers was the coach who drafted collins...to me our offense is set up more for a qb like ragone than carr...just my opinion...i understand why we went to it...because capers has no trust in our o-line to protect carr with 5 or 7-step drops...the one thing i've also noticed with caper's teams is that sometimes he is so set on schemes and stratigies that he makes the offense and defense so complicated that players don't play full speed...something that i believe was obvious throughout the pre-season

this isn't a bad thing...but you do have to have the right players for this system...the texans do not have those players...this is where capers is hurting himself...he is wanting younger players and it's the older players that produce in his type of schemes

anyways...that's what i think we should be doing on offense...throw it deep and throw it often...otherwise what was the point in drafting a qb number 1 overall?

Bubbajwp
09-04-2005, 11:27 PM
so who do you think we should have drafted instead of david carr :confused:

edo783
09-05-2005, 01:09 AM
the one thing i've also noticed with caper's teams is that sometimes he is so set on schemes and stratigies that he makes the offense and defense so complicated that players don't play full speed...something that i believe was obvious throughout the pre-season

Interesting point. Sometimes you can be too cute by half and wind up with a rubics cube situation. Complex does not automaticaly equate to superior. The Packers for YEARS ran a sweep that everyone knew was coming and just did it better than anyone could defend against. Sometimes it's better to do somethings well, rather than a bunch of cute things poorly even if they are not as confusing to the oposition.

HJam72
09-05-2005, 01:27 AM
Keep It Simple, Stupid

jr0ck
09-05-2005, 01:41 AM
capers has no trust in our o-line to protect carr with 5 or 7-step drops

actually our pass offense relies heavily on the three AND five step drops in it's current, upgraded, form. almost all play actions i have seen are 5 step drops, and carr has had ample time to throw on both three and five step drops all pre-season. the seven step drop is what got carr in trouble so much, as my limited QB knowledge tells me, to drop back seven steps and make your reads you generally need 5-5 1/2 seconds. to do that consistently with our OL at any point in our history would mean this ( :pigfly: ) is happening somewhere nearby.

but giving credit where credit is due, our OL has looked good enough to be mistaken for any other line in the league thus far. if they hold up when it counts, carr could reach 4000+ yds this year...

:texflag:

wags
09-05-2005, 01:49 AM
The Packers for YEARS ran a sweep that everyone knew was coming and just did it better than anyone could defend against.

They still run that play. Favre says he can hear the defense yelling exactly what they are about to run, but they still get 8 yards a pop.

beerlover
09-05-2005, 03:01 AM
David Carr fit the west coast offense he ran at Fresno State quite sucessfully. Palmer is best suited for a conservative drop back pocket QB that waits for patterns to develop. to Palmer's credit he has been trying to change to quicker slants (3 & 5 step drops) and underneath routes (which I'm thinking he must be saving for the regular season, particularly to Davis).

However I just don't think its Palmers style, there is a distinct rhythm to make it look effortless, he is too regimented and contrived, this is the root of many complaints concerning Carr & the Texans offense. its the overall lack of a spontaneous cohesive framework that embodies the Texans lack of continuous improvement.

Elite
09-05-2005, 03:11 AM
i believe if we had another coach our offense would not be as lame as it is. its a sad thing for capers to loose he's job over and OC like palmer but that is what is going to happen.

ccdude730
09-05-2005, 06:06 AM
to Palmer's credit he has been trying to change to quicker slants (3 & 5 step drops) and underneath routes (which I'm thinking he must be saving for the regular season, particularly to Davis).

i think some of that credit would have to go to david carr as well, he sat down with the coaches to help develop the "new offense" and change the audibles and calls. i think thats what i remember....

Tedc
09-05-2005, 08:27 AM
Boy you said it... Haven't understood what you mean. Dom is trying to build a football team. Like everybody on the same page..


spontaneous cohesive framework = teamwork

angeltexus
09-05-2005, 09:31 AM
I don't know about you people...but was I the only one who seemed to think our offense was good last year, just that it need to be consistent? Every game I saw...at times we were able to move the ball almost like we were out there practicing. I mean...look at it this way; David Carr 3531 passy yds, DD 1000 yds rushing & 15+ tds, Dre 1000+ yds receiving...a lot of them tops in the league, so what am I missing? I just think that with a llittle consistency, we could hang with just about anyone. Yeah...Carr took a beating last year, but we needed to beef up our line. I'd like to see us play without all these krappy short wussy passes. I honestly believe Riley has strengthed our line...and he would give up fewer sacks. With a little flare added to the offense...we are in the top 5 in the NFL...but that's just a personal feeling.

On a lighter note, I think our D is playing bloody good. At least our starting D has played good. Haven't they been fairly consistent? Could somebody find the stats on opponents third-down conversion rate this preseason, because we had to have one of the best in the league. I think we need to remain extremely optomistic about this season.
Have to agree with you there, Ive been watching Victor Riley and his crew, because that is what they are going to become. They finally got competition this year and they all showed up to play, Chester Pitts is going to dominate this year what ever position he lines up. All we need is for our NEW tight ends to block and we will be on highlight reels daily. Prove me right DD, cause I know you will.. :texflag:

rmartin65
09-05-2005, 09:33 AM
Carr is good at throwing the deep ball when he has time. Mathis has wheels. so im curious why the Texans are doing the short passing game. did'nt they draft mathis too stretch the field?

HJam72
09-05-2005, 09:38 AM
Carr is good at throwing the deep ball when he has time. Mathis has wheels. so im curious why the Texans are doing the short passing game. did'nt they draft mathis too stretch the field?

Mathis is too green right now (supposedly, anyway), although I think he's gonna be REALLY good at some point. The big problem there is pass blocking. Yes, they seemed a lot better during part of the Preseason, but the coaching staff probably doesn't have a whole lot of faith in them yet and I don't blame them. The blocking looked bad to me against Tampa. Everything looked bad in that game.

I would put Mathis or Gaffney or Armstrong or THOMAS or SWINTON in there ahead of Bradford right now though. Maybe they will make Gaff #2, but it would really surprise me. This administration has me really puzzled right now. Letting Swinton go was understandable, but not what I would've done. Some of this other stuff, which I won't repeat AGAIN, is just weird.

rmartin65
09-05-2005, 10:26 AM
I have also read mathis is not ready.

i also hope that Gaff gets the number 2 over bradford.

beerlover
09-05-2005, 12:22 PM
well not a very good description on my part, simply stated by Tedec, spontaneous cohesive framework = teamwork.

now we know that football teams, similar to organizations everywhere, improve by going through an evolutionary progression as they learn, apply, adapt, and learn again.
Football is more than a physical contest, and success is more than a victory on the playing field. Success is the progression of worthy ideas and goals. Such a progression involves at least two key cerebral factors, attention to detail and an absolute commitment to perfection.
using multiple receivers in the West Coast offense is a definite must something that needs to develop more on the Texans so teams cannot isloate on Johnson. The design of the attack must include a secondary or dump off receiver along with a primary receiver. Their routes complement each other so that; versus man coverage, a clearing action is provided by one receiver for the other, and versus zone coverage, the defender must make a choice of which receiver to cover. This design increases the chance for a completion, and permits the quarterback to get rid of the ball quickly, since he does not need to wait for his primary receiver to get open. The receivers routes should be in the same general area and at varying depths so that a stretching action is made on the coverage, this should become Mathis IMO. David should be able to quickly scan from one receiver to the other, and complete the pass to the open man. He is taught that when the coverage takes away the primary receiver, he will immediately go to the secondary receiver. Throwing the ball to the secondary receiver enough times will soon condition the defense to cover him, opening up possibilities down field. The West Coast passing attack utilizes all five skill positions as pass receivers in a variety of ways when attacking the defense. By using all skill positions as receivers, the offense can attack the whole field and reduce defensive coverage into one-on-one situations. The nice thing about the offense however is that on any given pass play, a quarterback will have a variety of options, especially on the side of the field that the play is designed to go, and because of this, a receiver is usually open.
true in 2004 the Texans set club records in first downs (300), total yards (5,128), rushing yards (1,882), passing yards (3,246), completion percentage (60.7), touchdowns (37) and points (309). Johnson set team records with 79 receptions for 1,129 yards. Carr had his best season as a pro, completing 285 of 466 passes for 3,531 yards with 16 touchdowns and 14 interceptions. Running back Domanick Davis turned in his second consecutive 1,000-yard season, amassing a team-record 1,188 yards and 13 touchdowns. if this is a trend I would say its a positive one, however for whatever the reason teams have figured ways to foil this offense at least from Cleveland through pre-season, to double/tripel team Andre, stack the box & pressure Carr out of the pocket & force the Texans to run the ball.
Lets hope Domanick stays healthy, Carrs confidence returns, Mathis turns into a deep threat and Murphy becomes a more of a go to guy in the offense, that Palmer figures a better approach to spreading the ball over the field and like a campus the oganization becomes one of higher learning, understanding and teamwork.

keyfro
09-05-2005, 12:31 PM
Bubbajwp...i still would have drafted carr first overall...i'd just run a different passing offense right now...i would have spent more draft picks on o-lineman in the later rounds so that right now our depth would be better than it is right now...i guess the main problem i have right now with our system is that it seems like everything we're doing is to match up against the colts...they are hopeing that carr and the recievers can get these timing routes down because they know if they don't carr will get killed by freeney everytime he drops back...riley is doing a good job right now at LT but let's face it...riley's weakness will be against speed rushers and besides peppers freeney is one of the best

Bubbajwp
09-05-2005, 04:12 PM
Gotcha

Texas
09-05-2005, 04:16 PM
I agree. Were not playing Carrs type of game but still. Just a like a 4-3 linebacker adjusting to the 3-4 , you need to be able to "Adapt"

Jwwillis
09-05-2005, 04:33 PM
to me this offense is wrong for carr...carr is more of a deep ball passer like kerry collins...ironic capers was the coach who drafted collins...to me our offense is set up more for a qb like ragone than carr...just my opinion...i understand why we went to it...because capers has no trust in our o-line to protect carr with 5 or 7-step drops...the one thing i've also noticed with caper's teams is that sometimes he is so set on schemes and stratigies that he makes the offense and defense so complicated that players don't play full speed...something that i believe was obvious throughout the pre-season

this isn't a bad thing...but you do have to have the right players for this system...the texans do not have those players...this is where capers is hurting himself...he is wanting younger players and it's the older players that produce in his type of schemes

anyways...that's what i think we should be doing on offense...throw it deep and throw it often...otherwise what was the point in drafting a qb number 1 overall?


Comical

powda
09-05-2005, 05:21 PM
i dont agree with the assertion this is a west coast offense. our running game sets up our passing game...not vice versa. (as evidenced by the choice of linemen we draft and pursue.) we have mostly better then average run blockers and average to poor pass blockers (with the exclusion of mckinney who is a sad run and pass blocker).

i've seen lots of progress in our running game and im excited about it to be honest.----and this without weigert.

our passing game at least recently has been another story. when our secondary recievers get off the line better, and start running better routes i think we'll see a drastic change. - i'd expect defenses to play a LOT of bump coverage to throw off our timeing. hopefully this opens up the deeper routes.

having watched the cowboys game now a few times i think we were a few flags and dropped passes short of being impressive. the running game was there...and i thought palmer's play calling was nice.

against tampa my biggest concern isnt carr. the timeing was off and the routes were bad...yeah i know. but carr isnt going to have a dismal game like that every week. whats got me worried is our blown assignments on the defense. recievers wide open lost in our scheme only to be found by bad opposing quarterbacks. we were torched. i dont have a lot of faith in players like faggins and sanders.

im starting to like the idea more and more of an early bye-week. it gives us a bit more time to get our act together.

beerlover
09-05-2005, 05:52 PM
i dont agree with the assertion this is a west coast offense. our running game sets up our passing game...not vice versa. (as evidenced by the choice of linemen we draft and pursue.) we have mostly better then average run blockers and average to poor pass blockers (with the exclusion of mckinney who is a sad run and pass blocker).

exactly! but that is the direction given the assests the Texans have that fit the personel best. if Palmer can't pull it out then we need to find someone who can. in my opinion its the coaches who have to adjust or adapt to the players not vice versa. and if your worried about the defense don't, Cappers is a very good defensive coach and he will shut down oppposing defenses despite what we saw in the pre-season. the offense is what has bothered most of us, and I am not one to blame Carr, to me the chemistry is not there between the players & the playbook, I think they have a better idea what to run, as a matter of fact why not let Carr make the calls if he needs help then he could call up for suggestions. the Texans need a OC on the same page as the real OC the QB, a west coast style could be effective, but no as yet they do not run it :brickwall

edo783
09-05-2005, 06:51 PM
im starting to like the idea more and more of an early bye-week. it gives us a bit more time to get our act together.


I have said a couple of times that I think the early bye will be to our bennifit this year. Get us on track after what I suspect will be two losses to start the season. I still think we will wind up 9-7 and just miss the playoffs.

Vinny
09-05-2005, 11:07 PM
I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball. He throws on a flat line and doesn't get much air under the ball. A good deep ball has a good arc and lets the WR run under the ball and adjust while in the air. Carr throws a flat lazer type throw that has little margin for error. I think Palmer lets Carr do as much as he is capable. If he was capable of more he would be able to do more.

Lucky
09-05-2005, 11:13 PM
I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball.
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.

ledzeppelin229
09-05-2005, 11:17 PM
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.


But is he taking into account passes that get to the receiver 10 yards downfield and then the receiver runs the extra 10-20-30 etc? That's far different than a ball traveling 30 yards in the air and landing in the receivers hands.

Lucky
09-05-2005, 11:19 PM
But is he taking into account passes that get to the receiver 10 yards downfield and then the receiver runs the extra 10-20-30 etc? That's far different than a ball traveling 30 yards in the air and landing in the receivers hands.
Yes, it is passes traveling over 20 yards in the air. Peyton Manning is 2nd at 45.7%.

ledzeppelin229
09-05-2005, 11:23 PM
Yes, it is passes traveling over 20 yards in the air. Peyton Manning is 2nd at 45.7%.

Works for me.

Vinny
09-06-2005, 12:22 AM
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.

The second problem for Carr is taht he wasn't able to pass deep very often. Carr only passed deep 13.7% of the time, ranking him tied for the 22nd lowest percentage in this metric.

long developing deep routes
Corner 1 1 28 0
Post 8 1 25 0
DMGo 6 1 69 0
Totals 15 3 122

SESupergenius
09-06-2005, 01:39 AM
he was not like that at all in college, he threw deep many times.

dalemurphy
09-06-2005, 03:38 AM
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.


Deep corner routes take too long to develop. He was probably on his back anytime he attempted to make that pass. The KC Joyner book actually makes the point that he had almost no success on double-move routes such as that one... One can certainly infer that it was a result of pass protection. I think Trent Green was the best on those routes last year.

Also Carr went deep over 40 times. 15 is the "long developing routes"... He was, I believe, 16 of 28 on Fly routes, Fades, Posts, etc...

Rightnow
09-06-2005, 08:25 AM
I seem to remember an article in the Chronicle from months ago that talked about a meeting that Carr had with Dom and McNair. In the meeting he basically said that if he takes another pounding this season he is gone.

I don't blame the guy.

That is why they changed the offense. They rewrote the whole thing. Sure hope it works. :brickwall

Lucky
09-06-2005, 10:04 AM
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.
Actually, Carr threw 62 "deep" passes last season, which was 22nd in the league. Carr only threw one deep corner route, but how many were called? Would you call more?

You're right in that Carr was accurate with the short pass last season, 5th in the league at 74.4%. It's ironic that this is where Carr's problems have been this postseason. My observation is that Carr wouldn't have thrown many of these passes last season because the coverage was too tight. And by hanging on to the ball, more sacks would have occured.

I can understand why the Texans thought the short passing game was the way to go (74.4% and fewer sacks). It's just not working out because defenses are sitting on the short stuff. Until the line can allow Carr and the WRs to work downfield, this passing offense will remain mediocre.

beerlover
09-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Vinny is just pointing out the numbers reflecting the Texans offensive strengths & weaknesses with Carr @ QB. even though Palmer is not a west coast kind of guy he knows he must address these trends by modifying and adjusting the offensive scheme. getting the TE, RB 2nd /3rd WR's involved will eventually open up lanes for Andre Johnson, because as it stands he has become the main focus of teams defensive game planning, every game I see there are at least two if not three or four DB's around AJ. I think we all can agree the TE has been under utilized in the offense, it will be critical for Murphy to step up as they actually run an offense that involves the TE. Domanick will get his throws if not more, hopefully Morency can catch the ball out of the backfield as well but I don't know because as of yet I haven't seen it. out of the receivers Gaffney, Bradford, Armstrong & Mathis someone needs to step up and become #2 (should be Gaffney) Mathis & Bradford should stretch the D & solidify the #3 :texans:

Kaiser Toro
09-06-2005, 11:31 AM
I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball. He throws on a flat line and doesn't get much air under the ball. A good deep ball has a good arc and lets the WR run under the ball and adjust while in the air. Carr throws a flat lazer type throw that has little margin for error. I think Palmer lets Carr do as much as he is capable. If he was capable of more he would be able to do more.

I concur. We must be watching the same games from the same angle in the stands.

Vinny
09-06-2005, 11:41 AM
Actually, Carr threw 62 "deep" passes last season, which was 22nd in the league. Carr only threw one deep corner route, but how many were called? Would you call more?I don't think Carr challenges the mid to deep field enough. He will throw to the sidelines most of the time because he isn't comfortable throwing into coverage.

And yes, I agree protection is to blame for some of it...but not all of it like most here feel.
You're right in that Carr was accurate with the short pass last season, 5th in the league at 74.4%. It's ironic that this is where Carr's problems have been this postseason.I hope he is accurate on his short pass...the bulk of the throws all go to Dom Davis in the flat - uncovered. He has tried to throw to his WR2's and TE's instead of the RB in this preseason...that's where he has gotten into trouble, and that's where I'm worried most about his game. Just watch the exibition games and see if he looks anyone off. He stares guys down and lets the S or the CB get a jump on the ball in most of his picks. Defenses know he doesn't look off defenders....I do, so I know they do.

Lucky
09-06-2005, 04:43 PM
And yes, I agree protection is to blame for some of it...
Well, the Texans redesigned the passing game because of the lack of protection. That's all I really need to know about what they thought of it.

Here are some of the short passing game numbers from '04:

DD - 68 rec. of 84 targets - 81%
AJ - 54 rec. of 69 targets - 78%
Gaff - 26 rec. of 36 targets - 72%
Corey - 16 rec. of 27 targets - 59%

If I could give one bit of advice to Carr & Palmer, it's this: Stop throwing short to Bradford!

rmartin65
09-06-2005, 06:36 PM
If I could give one bit of advice to Carr & Palmer, it's this: Stop throwing short to Bradford!
amen to that

Corrosion
09-06-2005, 07:10 PM
One thing I can say with certainty .... The Texans offense cant play any worse than they have the past two pre-season games :brickwall

Ibar_Harry
09-07-2005, 01:37 AM
One thing I can say with certainty .... The Texans offense cant play any worse than they have the past two pre-season games :brickwall

Be careful you might get what you think is the impossible. I keep saying our offense is going to be predicated on special team's play. I think we will look no differently than last year and perhaps even more conservative than last year. Look for many 3 and outs utilizing the run with the attempt to make something happen off of special team's play. I think that will be our offensive style this year. My lingering hope is that a wide receiver like Mathis will come to the fore and ease the pressure on AJ and then we might see some passing offense. Short of that I look for a very dull and uninspired offense with many courses of boo's coming from the stands.

Corrosion
09-07-2005, 01:44 AM
Be careful you might get what you think is the impossible. I keep saying our offense is going to be predicated on special team's play. I think we will look no differently than last year and perhaps even more conservative than last year. Look for many 3 and outs utilizing the run with the attempt to make something happen off of special team's play. I think that will be our offensive style this year. My lingering hope is that a wide receiver like Mathis will come to the fore and ease the pressure on AJ and then we might see some passing offense. Short of that I look for a very dull and uninspired offense with many courses of boo's coming from the stands.


Lets hope that Mathis can become that #2 reciever the Texans have been lacking ... Bradford has had 3 years to show he's that guy and has failed miserably ..... If not ..... I believe you are absolutely correct . Special teams may be their best source of points .... :cool:

rmartin65
09-07-2005, 02:41 PM
Lets hope that Mathis can become that #2 reciever the Texans have been lacking ... Bradford has had 3 years to show he's that guy and has failed miserably ..... If not ..... I believe you are absolutely correct . Special teams may be their best source of points .... :cool:
mathis should. it sounds like he's been progressing well and he has unnatural speed.

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 12:55 PM
Does Carr have enough time to look people off or throw deep corner routes? Theres a reason they are going to the quick timing patterns. And honestly that is going to be a mistake as well because when we run into teams the run the cover 2, they only have to rush 4 and drop back the rest into coverage. Sure David will have time in those quick patterned pass routes, but he will be throwing into tight coverage. They are adding more fuel to the fire if they are shortening up the field with quick timing routes.

dalemurphy
09-08-2005, 12:59 PM
Does Carr have enough time to look people off or throw deep corner routes? Theres a reason they are going to the quick timing patterns. And honestly that is going to be a mistake as well because when we run into teams the run the cover 2, they only have to rush 4 and drop back the rest into coverage. Sure David will have time in those quick patterned pass routes, but he will be throwing into tight coverage. They are adding more fuel to the fire if they are shortening up the field with quick timing routes.

I disagree with some of what you're saying. The Cover 2, by nature, does allow for underneath timing passing. Quick slants and shallow crosses are available- there just usually isn't much room for YAC. I think this move will be good if it is incorporated into the offense and doesn't become the offense. I still want to see 7 step drops. The advantage to the 3 and 5 step drops is it makes the position of the QB and the timing of the passes less predictable for the defense. And that would be a good thing!

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 02:41 PM
I disagree with some of what you're saying. The Cover 2, by nature, does allow for underneath timing passing. Quick slants and shallow crosses are available- there just usually isn't much room for YAC. I think this move will be good if it is incorporated into the offense and doesn't become the offense. I still want to see 7 step drops. The advantage to the 3 and 5 step drops is it makes the position of the QB and the timing of the passes less predictable for the defense. And that would be a good thing!
The way to beat the cover 2 is NOT by quick slants, its by stretching the field, use the TE and FB out of the backfield and play action pass It WILL become the offense because it already has BECOME the offense. Our line will not allow us to develop long plays. Carr has to fight pressure from only 4 guys rushing him, while 7 are out in the field covering 3 guys.