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jmlockett
09-03-2005, 11:57 AM
It Is Really Sad When The Third String Quarterback Can Get Things Done When Our Multi Million Dollar Qbs Can't Find Their Own Butt With Both Hands Placed On It For Them. I Love Our Team But Come On Guys Why Get Paid All This Money And Not Even Produce A Decent Game. At This Point I Say To Let Ragone Start And Carr Back-up And Banks 3rd.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 12:00 PM
It is really sad when people try to act like the preseason has any relevance whatsoever.

tsip
09-03-2005, 12:17 PM
"any relevance whatsoever"


...so why even bother?...let's go straight to the 'real' stuff

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 12:52 PM
No he is not. Great arm strength, suspect accuracy (please keep the stats to yourself as I am tired of his second look always being to Davis) and horrible decision making.

Right now there is not much separation between he and Ragone other than a fat contract.

This is his make or break year as far as I am concerned. If he does not show improvemtn then he and at Palmer need to go.

After four years this team is still searching for an identity, which is usually defined through a leader. I hope someone on the defense steps up, because it ain't gonna happen on the offensive side.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 12:57 PM
You're tired of his second look being to Davis? Then tell the Texans to get an offensive line so he has time to go through his progressions.

Quarterbacks don't even begin to peak until their fifth or sixth seasons. They usually aren't even decent until their third season. He had an 83.5 rating last year, good enough to be in the top half of the league, all while playing with arguably the worst offensive line in the game, no legitimate secondary receiver and a tight end (usually) with no receiving skills.

Carr's improved every season he's been in the league. He improved substantially from '03 to '04. He's ahead of most reasonable expectations of him. If you think Ragone could come in and be one of the top half of NFL starting quarterbacks with this OL and the receivers after Andre, you're beyond delusional.

Carr's fine, and he's only getting better.

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 01:07 PM
I respect your knowledge of the game and do agree that on the average, QB's find their groove in year 5. However, this debate is a little more granualar when it comes to Carr as we spent a #1 pick on him. Our front office or anyone else's front office who takes a QB at #1 expects immediate return on investment. This has not happened, are there factors that have not helped him prgress accordingly? Yes, we have spoke about them ad nauseum. However, I do not see the level of improvement that you would expect from a #1.

I like Carr from a character standpoint, I just do not like the return we have gotten from him to date on the field. I am still bitter about the 2002 draft as my fellow PSL owner and I were watching it, I wanted Peppers and Portis. We passed on both. Oh well. I love the Texans my man, just think we can do better with the amount of dollars we are spending. :texflag:

tsip
09-03-2005, 01:11 PM
It is really sad when people try to act like the preseason has any relevance whatsoever.

you are right--new passing attack depends on coordination between the
qb and receiver--don't need the preseason to get that timing down when we have a 16 game regular season to do it--plus, by the time we get to the
5th year of the 5yr plan and were still tinkering, heck, we'll just add a few
more years to the process---kinda like the t-shirt that says 'how can I
be out of money when I've still got blank checks?'...We won't be out of time,
we'll still have excuses!!!!!!! :yahoo:

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 01:15 PM
I respect your knowledge of the game and do agree that on the average, QB's find their groove in year 5. However, this debate is a little more granualar when it comes to Carr as we spent a #1 pick on him. Our front office or anyone else's front office who takes a QB at #1 expects immediate return on investment. This has not happened, are there factors that have not helped him prgress accordingly? Yes, we have spoke about them ad nauseum. However, I do not see the level of improvement that you would expect from a #1.

I like Carr from a character standpoint, I just do not like the return we have gotten from him to date on the field. I am still bitter about the 2002 draft as my fellow PSL owner and I were watching it, I wanted Peppers and Portis. We passed on both. Oh well. I love the Texans my man, just think we can do better with the amount of dollars we are spending. :texflag:

You don't build an expansion team around a defensive end. Not to mention, why would you want Portis? He was taken #51. He was projected as a 3rd rounder. Are you suggesting at the time that the Texans take a guy as a projected 3rd rounder with the #1 overall pick? I know these are only your "wants" but it sorta seems that your "wants" are based on performance since the draft, not projections before the draft.

This then goes to the Joey and Carr debates as there was no other player you could realistically build around from that draft. Had Joey been sacked as many times as Carr has been in his career, he probably would have cried and retired to persue his piano career.

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 01:22 PM
No my wants are not based on de facto performance. It is on record (not published of course) that I wanted Peppers and Portis before the draft, you can come see me at any home game and ask my buddy who has seats next to me. I could care less about projections, look waht happened with Carr and Harrington- the book is still out.

I do not think it was a reach to pick Peppers at the #1 (rumoured character issues aside) when your Head coach is known as a defensive whiz. The last four Super Bowl Champions are know for defense, so I am not quite clear why you it would be a reach to build your team around a DE.

Vinny
09-03-2005, 01:23 PM
You don't build an expansion team around a defensive end. You build great teams around great players. Peppers is a great player. I would have had zero problem starting the franchise with Peppers, but there wasn't a veteran QB the team was comfortable with, so we pulled the trigger on a big armed QB. If Carr never becomes a great player the first pick was a mistake. If he does, it won't be....but 4 years in it looks like Peppers is the stronger stock of the two investments.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 01:37 PM
You build great teams around great players. Peppers is a great player. I would have had zero problem starting the franchise with Peppers, but there wasn't a veteran QB the team was comfortable with, so we pulled the trigger on a big armed QB. If Carr never becomes a great player the first pick was a mistake. If he does, it won't be....but 4 years in it looks like Peppers is the stronger stock of the two investments.

No doubt you build around great players, but the "money" thing to do when you are an expansion franchise and two of the top 5 projected picks are QBs is to take one. QB is certainly a more "face" position than DE. It's far tougher to get butts in seats saying, "Come watch Julius sack the QB!" than it is saying, "Come watch David throw the deep bomb!(if the offense would allow him to....buttttt thats another story).No expansion team comes in the league expecting to win the Super Bowl, so taking the QB who would take his bumps for a few years is way better from a marketing and overall team strategy standpoint.

I seriously wouldnt know Bertrand Berry from Brent Berry if Bertrand Berry introduced himself to me wearing a shirt saying, "Hi, I'm Bertrand Berry" but he was 2nd in the league in sacks last year for Arizona.However, I could tell you the top 10 QBs in the league in touchdowns in order and i'm willing to bet that most people could too.

Vinny
09-03-2005, 01:40 PM
I understand your point and that's all fine if he plays up to his pick and his contract status. We are still waiting for that, while Peppers is arguably the best lineman in the NFL on a team most think will challenge for the Super Bowl. Hind sight is 20/20 but I don't like picking via formulas (ie take a qb because of some scripted formula tells you to take a qb).

jmlockett
09-03-2005, 01:53 PM
I HAVE FOLLOWED THIS TEAM FROM DAY ONE AND PROBABLY AS YOU CAN TELL I AM PRETTY DISSAPOINTED FROM THE WAY THINGS LOOK. IN READING YOUR POSTS ALL OF YOU MAKE GOOD SENSE. HOWEVER THE STANDPOINT I AM COMING FROM IS THAT IS CARR A LEADER OR A FOLLOWER IN LEADERS SHOES. IN WATCHING BANKS PLAY HIS GAME SEEMED OFF BUT THE TEAM RESPONDED BETTER TO HIM AS A WHOLE, THINGS CLICKED BETTER. RAGONE CAME IN WITH A CONFINDENCE BUILDING EURO FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP WIN. THE TEAM NOT ONLY CLICKED BUT THEY PLAYED WITH CONFINDENCE. i HAVE MET CARR A COUPLE OF TIMES AND I AGREE HE IS GREAT MAN, HIS VALUES AND HIS BELIEFS AND HIS DESIRE TO WIN. I QUESTION HIS ABILITY TO INSTILL THESE THINGS INTO HIS LEADERSHIP.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 01:54 PM
I understand your point and that's all fine if he plays up to his pick and his contract status. We are still waiting for that, while Peppers is arguably the best lineman in the NFL on a team most think will challenge for the Super Bowl. Hind site is 20/20 but I don't like picking via formulas (ie take a qb because of some scripted formula tells you to take a qb).

I love Peppers just as much as the next guy. In fact despite Carr being my favorite player in that draft, I still liked Peppers and THOUGHT he would be the better player.However, there is no doubt in my mind that he also benefitted from being inserted into an established team who even though they were bad, the year before Peppers they spend their top two picks on defensive players, Dan Morgan and Kris Jenkins. Guys who play the heart of the entire defense in MLB and the heart of the DLine in DT. You are then putting Peppers on a line with two high 2nd round picks(Jenkins and Rucker), you are gonna have greatness.

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 02:04 PM
I love Peppers just as much as the next guy. In fact despite Carr being my favorite player in that draft, I still liked Peppers and THOUGHT he would be the better player.However, there is no doubt in my mind that he also benefitted from being inserted into an established team who even though they were bad, the year before Peppers they spend their top two picks on defensive players, Dan Morgan and Kris Jenkins. Guys who play the heart of the entire defense in MLB and the heart of the DLine in DT. You are then putting Peppers on a line with two high 2nd round picks(Jenkins and Rucker), you are gonna have greatness.

The intangbile fact is that Carr has not made anyone around him better, as in Carr is such a great talent or a great leader that everyone's game is elevated. Peppers reeks of this type of residual value.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 02:23 PM
you are right--new passing attack depends on coordination between the
qb and receiver--don't need the preseason to get that timing down when we have a 16 game regular season to do it--plus, by the time we get to the
5th year of the 5yr plan and were still tinkering, heck, we'll just add a few
more years to the process---kinda like the t-shirt that says 'how can I
be out of money when I've still got blank checks?'...We won't be out of time,
we'll still have excuses!!!!!!! :yahoo:

That's what practice is for. I'd rather Carr try to get his timing down in practice than to go all-out in preseason games and give defensive coordinators in the first month even more to prepare for.

There are excuses, and there is common sense. Carr had a very good season last year. He's done nothing to justify any concern. The Steelers were 15-1 last year, but Ben Roethlisberger had a QB rating of 32 in the preseason... do you really think they're worried? Answer: no.

few other points - not improving enough to justify a #1 pick? Umm, with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receivers and no pass-catching tight end all in only his third season, what rating did you expect him to put up? Give me a number... not something vague.

As far as Peppers being better right now - well duh. Everyone in the world, including the Texans, knew and expected Peppers to be better than Carr in the first three years. One's a DE and the other a QB. That's common sense. The investment was made for seasons four, five, six and so on, not the first three seasons with an expansion team.

And the leadership argument? hahaha. this thread has reached a new low. How do you know why certain players improve or decline? Maybe they did it with their own work ethic in the offseason. Maybe they improve or decline based on the offensive and defensive lines. Unless you're in the lockerroom, it's beyond foolish to make claims that "so and so has not made anyone better."

Now we're talking about Ragone? you guys are beyond hysterical. Aside from the fact that the game has zero meaning, Carr was going up against the best pass defense in the NFL last year... Ragone was going up against a bunch of third and fourth string scrubs. That might have just a bit to do with "how the players responded"...

beerlover
09-03-2005, 02:23 PM
the question is really did Carr deserve to be the 1st player selected in the 2002 inaugural draft of the Texans?

simple answear, yes he did :texflag:

what I have noticed however is that a change needs to be considered and its not completly Carr's fault. he will excell in the NFL just as he did in College within the right system. Palmers ideas & game planning do not seem to compliment the strengths of his players. in order to be fair to Carr if things don't jell this season it will be time to find a new offensive coordinator.

I don't like complainers unless they have answears so this is mine- fire Palmer & woo Bob Hill from Fresno State to be the new offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans

Here is his bio- http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_pat00.html

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 02:31 PM
the question is really did Carr deserve to be the 1st player selected in the 2002 inaugural draft of the Texans?

simple answear, yes he did :texflag:

what I have noticed however is that a change needs to be considered and its not completly Carr's fault. he will excell in the NFL just as he did in College within the right system. Palmers ideas & game planning do not seem to compliment the strengths of his players. in order to be fair to Carr if things don't jell this season it will be time to find a new offensive coordinator.

I don't like complainers unless they have answears so this is mine- fire Palmer & woo Bob Hill from Fresno State to be the new offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans

Here is his bio- http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_pat00.html

Never he said he it did not deserve it, just has warranted it in hind sight. A solution is to cut Carr loose after this year if he does not show improvement as well let Palmer go and possibly Capers. I woudl not mind seeing Jerry Gray in here as HC.

I am sure Bob Hill is good man and sound coach.

rmartin65
09-03-2005, 02:39 PM
That's what practice is for. I'd rather Carr try to get his timing down in practice than to go all-out in preseason games and give defensive coordinators in the first month even more to prepare for.

There are excuses, and there is common sense. Carr had a very good season last year. He's done nothing to justify any concern. The Steelers were 15-1 last year, but Ben Roethlisberger had a QB rating of 32 in the preseason... do you really think they're worried? Answer: no.

few other points - not improving enough to justify a #1 pick? Umm, with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receivers and no pass-catching tight end all in only his third season, what rating did you expect him to put up? Give me a number... not something vague.

As far as Peppers being better right now - well duh. Everyone in the world, including the Texans, knew and expected Peppers to be better than Carr in the first three years. One's a DE and the other a QB. That's common sense. The investment was made for seasons four, five, six and so on, not the first three seasons with an expansion team.

And the leadership argument? hahaha. this thread has reached a new low. How do you know why certain players improve or decline? Maybe they did it with their own work ethic in the offseason. Maybe they improve or decline based on the offensive and defensive lines. Unless you're in the lockerroom, it's beyond foolish to make claims that "so and so has not made anyone better."

Now we're talking about Ragone? you guys are beyond hysterical. Aside from the fact that the game has zero meaning, Carr was going up against the best pass defense in the NFL last year... Ragone was going up against a bunch of third and fourth string scrubs. That might have just a bit to do with "how the players responded"...
excellent post.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 02:39 PM
The intangbile fact is that Carr has not made anyone around him better, as in Carr is such a great talent or a great leader that everyone's game is elevated. Peppers reeks of this type of residual value.

Huh??? Are you serious or joking? He hasnt made anyone better? He made AJ a pro bowl WR. He made DD an 1800 all-purpose yard back and one of the best two tool runningbacks in the NFL, when most people didnt think he would even become a starter. There is no physical way that David can make his Oline better. He can't give them vision to read blitzes. He can't give them strength to overpower everyone. He can't give them better feet to move with. He's making everyone better that his offensive scheme ALLOWS him to make better.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 02:42 PM
Never he said he it did not deserve it, just has warranted it in hind sight. A solution is to cut Carr loose after this year if he does not show improvement as well let Palmer go and possibly Capers. I woudl not mind seeing Jerry Gray in here as HC.

I am sure Bob Hill is good man and sound coach.

There were only 15 quarterbacks in the entire league better than Carr last year, and that was in only his third season. So if you cut Carr lose, you're almost assuredly going to bring in someone worse than him. So, in order for the new QB to have a net gain for the offense, he'd have to improve from his previous seasons... while going to a team with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receiver and no pass-catching tight end. Mind explaining how that one's going to work?

Logic and common sense should tell you that it is very likely Carr will improve. But if he simply remains at the level he was at last year for the remainder of his career, he's still a very solid quarterback and it would be absurd to cut him loose.

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 02:56 PM
Huh??? Are you serious or joking? He hasnt made anyone better? He made AJ a pro bowl WR. He made DD an 1800 all-purpose yard back and one of the best two tool runningbacks in the NFL, when most people didnt think he would even become a starter. There is no physical way that David can make his Oline better. He can't give them vision to read blitzes. He can't give them strength to overpower everyone. He can't give them better feet to move with. He's making everyone better that his offensive scheme ALLOWS him to make better.

No I am not joking. AJ is a freak and many on this board will tell you that watch the games that the Texans best two passing plays are to just throw it up in the air to AJ and he will go up and get it, which he does quite often. Thee other is throw it to AJ on the line and let him work the CB one on one in open space. It does not take a #1 pick at QB to do this.

I like DD as well, but what makes his statistics so appealing is that Carr looks for him on the dump off continuously and many times it is in when the defense is playing prevent defense. Carr has nothing to do with DD's ground game, in fact I would argue that we had a better QB, DD would get more yards.

But lets go to Carr. Hey David how much film have you watched on cover 2 this past year? Have you had a discussion with your OC on what plays you think that will benefit your personnel against the cover 2? Maybe he has and just cannot execute. Mmaybe this is the year David will have sack up and audible because he is fed up with the Palmer's play calling.

My point is, is that Carr is the face of this organization and is paid handsomely for it. If you are true fan who puts their money where their mouth is then you expect more. I am a PSL Owner since day one, make the trek from Austin to every home game and I bought the Sunday ticket because I do not want to miss one Texans away game sice JAX cannot sell out a game.

Once again the sky is not falling, we will go 8-8 this year and would like to see some more value out of our first pick. :texflag:

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 03:05 PM
There were only 15 quarterbacks in the entire league better than Carr last year, and that was in only his third season. So if you cut Carr lose, you're almost assuredly going to bring in someone worse than him. So, in order for the new QB to have a net gain for the offense, he'd have to improve from his previous seasons... while going to a team with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receiver and no pass-catching tight end. Mind explaining how that one's going to work?

Logic and common sense should tell you that it is very likely Carr will improve. But if he simply remains at the level he was at last year for the remainder of his career, he's still a very solid quarterback and it would be absurd to cut him loose.

Admittedly I do not know what the fiscal implications are of we cut him loose after 2005. Once again this is a value proposition. Not sure how you measure the QB's, hard for me to comment on that, but under the result of your measurement it is not so reassuring as that says we spent a #1 for a QB who is no better than the middle of the pack amongst his peers.

This secondary receiever talk is a little stale as he has one, it is just unfortunate that it is DD. :)

I want to see him get better as well, but he is not a HS QB so lets stop coddling him. He is a professional and understands the demands. I am a fan and expect return on investment, as in execution. I would have no problme if he started calling people out. But you know what, he may be scared of the back lash or he is not the leader that everyone makes him out to be.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 03:09 PM
He has to dump it off because the offensive line is so damn terrible. Seriously, watch the OLine. Watch them.

Carr passed for 3500 yards with a recieving core of AJ...and then??? Gaffney isnt a strong #2. Armstrong could be good, but he is unproven. TEs are hardly ever used in the offense. Not to mention Carr had more rushing attempts and yards for any QB not named Vick or Culpepper. Imagine if he stayed in his year 1 and year 2 form, the sack numbers would have been EVEN HIGHER than his league leading sack number last year.

You can't blame Carr for having no time and bad options to throw to. Fact, most of the GREAT QBs in the league have a good TE to throw to. Manning's TEs combined for 700 yards and 11 TDs. Wiggins in Minnesota??? Another 700 yard guy. Graham in NE??? 7 TDs(not to mention another 2 from Fauria). Hell, even look at Crumpler in ATL, he makes even bad throwing QBs look great.Which brings us to Houston's TE situation last year...200 yards and 1 TD. Perhaps I'm the only one seeing this though...

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 03:16 PM
Not sure how you measure the QB's, hard for me to comment on that, but under the result of your measurement it is not so reassuring as that says we spent a #1 for a QB who is no better than the middle of the pack amongst his peers.

I measure my quarterbacks by the history of the NFL.

It's very reassuring to me if Carr is in the middle of the pack in just his third season, especially given the circumstances here. If he's still there in seasons four, five and six, maybe we can call him an underachiever. At this point, if anything, he's an overachiever.

There is a very different learning and development curve for quarterbacks compared to other players. Learn it.

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 03:29 PM
I measure my quarterbacks by the history of the NFL.

It's very reassuring to me if Carr is in the middle of the pack in just his third season, especially given the circumstances here. If he's still there in seasons four, five and six, maybe we can call him an underachiever. At this point, if anything, he's an overachiever.

There is a very different learning and development curve for quarterbacks compared to other players. Learn it.

Just so we are on the same page. You said earlier that Carr was the 15th best QB in the league last year. I asked by waht measurement. Your answer was by the history of the NFL. I have not heard of this measurement and am willing to learn as you instructed me. Please do tell.

The only thinig I can think that your are talking about is maybe you saw this on Madden or something, because I cannot follow the logic

Thanks for asking, I am familiar with the learning curve at the QB position. I was not upset when Cass took Ragone in the draft. Cass to understands the balance between the learning curve and competition. :texflag:

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 03:33 PM
Just so we are on the same page. You said earlier that Carr was the 15th best QB in the league last year. I asked by waht measurement. Your answer was by the history of the NFL. I have not heard of this measurement and am willing to learn as you instructed me. Please do tell.

The only thinig I can think that your are talking about is maybe you saw this on Madden or something, because I cannot follow the logic

Thanks for asking, I am familiar with the learning curve at the QB position. I was not upset when Cass took Ragone in the draft. Cass to understands the balance between the learning curve and competition. :texflag:

Sorry, I didn't think that's what you meant. I didn't say he was 15th best. I said he was in the top half. I figured it would be obvious I was speaking of passer rating, since it's by far the most accurate statistical method of analyzing a quarterback. Carr was ranked 16th last year, and there are 32 teams with starting quarterbacks... do the math.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2004/regular

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2005, 03:39 PM
Sorry, I didn't think that's what you meant. I didn't say he was 15th best. I said he was in the top half. I figured it would be obvious I was speaking of passer rating, since it's by far the most accurate statistical method of analyzing a quarterback. Carr was ranked 16th last year, and there are 32 teams with starting quarterbacks... do the math.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2004/regular

Thanks for letting me know that is how you are measuring as people have different measurements and I do not like to assume.

How many of those QB's in front him were 1st rounders? I am guessing 5 out of 15? Also disconcerting to see that David was the secnd best QB from his own college.

Take it easy DD got to run to a FF draft, appreciate the dialogue and go Texans. :texflag:

the wonger need food
09-03-2005, 04:33 PM
Is he worth what hype? He's not hyped anywhere in the country aside from Houston and the Valley. He's viewed as a below average QB by a majority of NFL fandom.

I can't give away my Carr rookie cards on eBay these days.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 04:59 PM
Is he worth what hype? He's not hyped anywhere in the country aside from Houston and the Valley. He's viewed as a below average QB by a majority of NFL fandom.

Really? I must have missed that survey.

TexHorns
09-03-2005, 05:35 PM
I have an idea! Why don't we put Wonger in as QB, fire Carr and Capers, start Hollings as RB, let Dunta play LT, I will buy the franchise and ragone can take over as the new head coach.

The new cheerleaders:

Captain- Seth Wand

2006 squad- Garry Walker, Chester Pitts, Zack Weigart (also known as Miss Feb. in the Texans new calendar), Chris Palmer and former owner Bob Mcnair :ok:

WWJD
09-03-2005, 05:47 PM
I think we as fans expect perfection sometimes from our teams and of course that in unattainable. So when they fail or falter it's a big fall.

I just try to remember that David is competitive, he'll do what he needs to do to prepare for the game and correct mistakes. If he doesn't he can lose his job just as any other athlete can. And I'm positive he feels badly about his performance.

The burden on his shoulders is a big one. He'll get his game right.

GP
09-03-2005, 06:14 PM
WildBlackbear32:

We have had above average TEs. Maybe not superstars, but they are Ok enough to deserve the ball.

Carr doesn't throw them the ball. So, it really doesn't matter who we bring into camp each year as a TE....Carr can't get his eyes off of two players: AJ and DD.

I can't even bear to watch one of our TEs come into the huddle for the next play because it's like, "Oh, I guess this is the part where the TE run blocks or sprints un-defended up the field waving his arms wildly to get Carr's attention."

So, the ball is snapped...Carr drops back, scrambles (usually) and tried to lob it to AJ and then looks for DD as the safety valve if AJ is covered. Usually what happens next is Carr is near the sideline and either runs it out of bounds (slamming the ball into the turf out of frustration, usually) or he slings it away for an incompletion--He's gotten better at throwing it away when he's ot of options, i've got to give him credit for that at least.

If the Texans really do have a new offensive passing scheme...I say they tear it down and revert back to the old way. I'm not impressed thus far. The zone blocking is working great for the running game, but the passing game is just abismal at best.

So is he worth the hype? So far he has, but a LOT of people on this board, as well as a lot of national radio personalities (ESPN) say this is very much a make or break season for him.

(This is the part where I duck and try to dodge the stones that will come raining down from up above).

Carr either gets over the hump this year, or it's the beginning of the end for him. Does it take six, seven, or eight years for him to be the QB we had all hoped he can be?

I like the guy, but the clock is ticking. It's a business. Ask Sharper and Glenn.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 06:19 PM
Mark Bruener isn't close to an above average TE. He's a TE with hands of stone.

Here's what really happens. Carr either has pressure from the defensive line or scrambles for his life and doesn't have time to go through his progressions. He looks for his best receiver (Andre) to make a play, and when one simply isn't possible, he often goes to the safety valve because he doesn't have the time to go through the other options.

Is it a big season for Carr? Absolutely. He's got to continue to play well and he should slightly improve also. But let's wait to criticize him and talk about his failure until he gives us a reason to (no, the preseason is not a reason).

Malloy
09-03-2005, 06:27 PM
I can't give away my Carr rookie cards on eBay these days.

So you ARE a fan!! :)

uhm.. were... :)

GP
09-03-2005, 06:32 PM
So Murphy snagging the ball for our only TD in one of the preseason games is not good enough? That ball was on target over the defender's shoulder, and he was clutch--By the way, that ball was thrown by Banks and not Carr. The bobbled ball against Dallas was just (1) not well thrown by Carr to begin with and (2) it was a great play by the defenders who converged and knocked it loose. Breuner is worthy of a roster spot and he can catch the ball, ask the Steelers fans who came here and congratualted us for getting him on our team. Miller was a casualty of Carr not throwing the ball to our TEs. When the second teamers were out there (Banks and Murphy, etc.) the TEs were getting balls thrown to them more regularly and thus it made Miller look bad. We just gave him a big bonus/contract or something last year. "Way to go, Billy. The Texans are proud of you...oh, that was last year...sorry, you have been cut." Nice.

Carr just doesn't think about them until it's too late. If you want me to start a list of these occurences, I will. I notice it all the time. Very discouraging when it happens so consistently.

Do we have to get Gonzales or Gates before he looks to them? Nope. He does that with AJ by lobbing up prayers when there's no way out. AJ has been bailing Carr out on miracle throws, and those kind of plays can't go on forever.

Now that I think of it, maybe Gaffney was such a key player that Carr has been lost without him. Something to ponder. I just know that Gaffney has been out until recently and Carr doesn't look the same. I dunno. But I do know that Carr does NOT go to the TE enough, and if our TE has made our roster, it shouldn't matter how "elite" the TE is....Carr is not very "elite" right now and he's getting all kinds of defense from people on this board right now.

TopTexanFan16
09-03-2005, 06:36 PM
So Murphy snagging the ball for our only TD in one of the preseason games is not good enough? That ball was difficult to ctahc, and he was clutch. The bobbled bal against Dallas was just a great play by the defenders who converged and knocked it loose. Breuner is worthy of a roster spot and he can catch the ball, ask the Stellers fans who came here and congratualted us for getting him on our team. Miller was a casualty of Carr not throwing the ball to our TEs.

Carr just doesn't think about them until it's too late. If you want me to start a list of these occurences, I will. I notice it all the time. Very discouraging when it happens so consistently.

Do we have to get Gonzales or Gates before he looks to them? Nope. He does that with AJ by lobbing up prayers when there's no way out.

Now that I think of it, maybe Gaffney was such a key player that Carr has been lost without him. Something to ponder. I just know that Gaffney has been out until recently and Carr doesn't just the same. I dunno. But I do know that Carr does NOT go to the TE enough, and if our TE has made our roster, it shouldn't matter how "elite" the TE is....Carr is not very "elite" right now and he's getting all kinds of defense from people on this board right now.

Dude ur just turning into a carr basher now and its gettin really disgusting. maybe if you went to the root of the problem, now im not saying its not carrs fault cause he has played poorly but the line hasnt given him all the time in the world to look from AJ to Bradford to Gaffney then to our TE's whom which we havent had very good pass cathing TE's since miller and he wasnt a starter. so look at all the details of why somethin isnt working right rather than puttin all the blame on one person. if i remember correctly you play as a team you win as a team and you loose as a team.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 06:37 PM
Actually, Steelers fans told us Bruener was an excellent blocking tight end with questionable hands. Try again on that one.

You're exactly right, though. It doesn't matter if we have Antonio Gates. Doesn't matter if we have Torry Holt to pair with Andre. It all comes back to the offensive line. You have to have time to go through progressions and to look for secondary targets, and Carr rarely has it. If you'd like me to make a list of these occurences, I'd be willing to as well.

Regarding the two examples you cited, two problems. One, it's the preseason, so it's all essentially meaningless. Second, both of those instances were after the opposition had begun putting in it's second-string players, giving Carr & Banks more time to throw and thus go through progressions.

the wonger need food
09-03-2005, 06:44 PM
So you ARE a fan!! :)

uhm.. were... :)

I've always been a fan.

Look people... get it thru your heads... just because you don't agree with everything the organization or it's players do, it does not make you less of a fan.

GP
09-03-2005, 06:45 PM
Carr, right now, deserves a bashing. Sorry if it's that way.

Right now, as I type this, I look up on top of my computer stand where I see two McFarlane sports figurines: David Carr and Yao Ming. I am big Carr fan, Ming fan, Rockets fan, Texans fan, and Astros fan. All the Houston pro teams and I'm not even FROM Houston.

I hate having to say what I say about Carr. But three-plus years of this stuff is getting me bummed out. You can't deny what I say...you just comment that I'm saying it. And because I'm saying it, I'm some sort of freak or something?

Gosh. Be open to the fact that just because his name is David Carr does not mean that he ain't stinking up the joint right now. And in the past, yes he has come back and turned the light switch on and made a few good games after bad games. I just want to see him have more consistency and have more good games than bad games.

The o line is not perfect, but neither is Carr. And this board just SMASHES the o line and begs everybody off of Carr's case. All the time. It's wearing me out, and I've had enough. And that's why I am so loud right now. Sorry if it's abrasive to you or to others. Again: I hate doing it, but it's the doggone truth right now.

DomDavis
09-03-2005, 07:06 PM
I smash the offensive line because, well, they need to be smashed. There's no learning curve like there is for Carr. Quarterbacks have an entirely different learning curve. In years one and two, they generally suck... very few exceptions. It's year three that you start seeing improvement and seeing their true potential. Year four is about further development, and years five and six are where the peak begins.

Regardless of any individual occurrences you list, his overall performance last season (check the numbers) was very encouraging, especially given it was just his third season. Most around the league would agree. But other positions, including the OL, TE and others, don't have the same learning curve, thus they deserve more criticism than Carr. Even if you think they have a similar learning curve, the reality is that Carr was in the top half of players at his position... I don't think you can say that about our OL or TE positions.

Carr deserves a bashing if he doesn't continue his improvement and continue to play well in his all-important fourth season. But that season hasn't even begun. And it's not time to bash until it does.

GP
09-03-2005, 07:11 PM
Well, our o line isn't all-pro...but they deserve as much grace as Carr's been given around here. This is a make or break season for him. After this year, it becomes crystal clear if the preseason was a fluke or a foreshadowing of what's to come in 2006.

I personally hope he succeeds. A lot of talent, a class guy, etc. But I see that you at least agree that this season is THE season for him.

The Bills game has just gotten a lot more interesting after the way Carr and some others have performed this preseason.

Porky
09-03-2005, 08:54 PM
It is really sad when people try to act like the preseason has any relevance whatsoever.

Wow, are you in for a letdown next Sunday.

Malloy
09-03-2005, 09:16 PM
I've always been a fan.

Look people... get it thru your heads... just because you don't agree with everything the organization or it's players do, it does not make you less of a fan.

easy.. relax, referring to your little comment about the collectors cards, though it was funny.

IMO it's ok to critizise a team and it's players. As long as the critizism is constructive and well thought out. :)

the wonger need food
09-03-2005, 09:18 PM
easy.. relax, referring to your little comment about the collectors cards, though it was funny.

IMO it's ok to critizise a team and it's players. As long as the critizism is constructive and well thought out. :)

Sorry, just used to getting bashed by the homers and mods for speaking the truth.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2005, 09:24 PM
WildBlackbear32:

We have had above average TEs. Maybe not superstars, but they are Ok enough to deserve the ball.

Wake up. Above average TEs??? Are you sure you are watching the Texans?? Bruener is a FINE blocking TE...but the guy has played 141 games and has 141 catches. For a total of....ONE catch per game over his career. He hasnt had a 20 catch season in over a decade. Miller showed during Carr's rookie year what Carr can do with a good recieving TE as Miller had 600 yards that year. Then they started phasing Miller's role out the last two seasons. Don't tell me Carr can't get our "above average TEs" the ball, thats just bunk.

Elite
09-03-2005, 09:29 PM
It Is Really Sad When The Third String Quarterback Can Get Things Done When Our Multi Million Dollar Qbs Can't Find Their Own Butt With Both Hands Placed On It For Them. I Love Our Team But Come On Guys Why Get Paid All This Money And Not Even Produce A Decent Game. At This Point I Say To Let Ragone Start And Carr Back-up And Banks 3rd.

dont complain about D Carr or youll get banned it happen to me before had to create a new user name. oh and they will also ban your ip thank good for proxies. :highfive: but yeah david carr was a big mistake ive been saying it for years now.

stephen1
09-03-2005, 09:49 PM
carr isnt an awful quarterback and ragone doesnt need to be starting. just wait and see what happens in the season

GP
09-04-2005, 12:27 AM
What is it with this "The preseason is meaningless" mantra?

It's an epidemic.

I burned down a Wal-Mart a few days ago....but the cool thing about it is that I did it in August. Hey, it's September now and it doesn't count!

Congratulations. You KNOW that the preseason doesn't count toward the regular season and thus the playoffs.

But something you might want to notice is that we've had four straight losing preseasons and its translated to (so far) three straight losing SEASONS. There's kind of a connection there, if you ask me. But, hey........it's just preseason! Like Carr said, now it's for REAL!

Everybody dance to the music: "It was just preseason...oh yeah, oh yeah, baby....it's just preseason...cut a couple guys who actually played well...oh yeah baby...it's just preseason...HIT THAT LIGHT SWITCH, DJ CARR!....oh yeah, we're gonna turn it on now...look out AFC...cuz here we come...this ain't no preseason game no more...oooh oooh baby!" Come on, everybody sing it! It's the next big dance craze coming your way... :bguitar: :coolb: :dance:

Sorry 'bout that. I just had to have a little fun after all the :brickwall that's been going on with the Carr vs. Where's Carr Been? debate.

DoCt3rJ
09-04-2005, 12:40 AM
Carr is improving, but we are about to see whether he will make that jump from a descent QB to a good QB. The jury is still out on Carr, just like it is with every unproven QB.

Corrosion
09-04-2005, 12:41 AM
Pre-season is just glorified practices.........


If you cant perform in practice what makes you think you can perform when its real .... Kinda like Allen Iverson saying "We're talkin bout Practice , Come on man , Practice" .... funny words from a man with Zero championships.

GP
09-04-2005, 12:54 AM
"If you cant perform in practice what makes you think you can perform when its real .... Kinda like Allen Iverson saying "We're talkin bout Practice , Come on man , Practice" .... funny words from a man with Zero championships."

-- corrosion

-----------------------------

Yeah but that's the NBA, so it doesn't count (joking).

How many arse whippings do we take, regardless of preseason or regular season before all of Texansdom stands up and says, "You know what? It's great and all that we have a team in Houston now. Thank you for bringing pro football back. But cutting icons from our team, and cutting a sure-handed return guy (Moses) and then cutting the ONLY guy to return a kick for a TD (Swinton) after you had cut a guy who COULDN'T return a kick for a TD a few months earlier (Moses), and cutting a guy who showed great promise as a WR, and then keeping Hollings who is always hurt and doesn't perform well at his true roster position, and playing musical offensive linemen games all offseason is not really inspiring any confidence in me right now."

I guess the reason they cut Swinton and Sloan was because the management, just like some of the fans here, think that those games were "just the preseason, so the TDs and the clutch catches don't really count." I think I'm catching onto it now.

But we'll keep Joppru! Because his twenty-straight injuries don't count since it was always in the preseason. Someone said there are no politics played in terms of roster decisions. What in the wide wide world of sports do you call Joppru's annual Get Well Tour?

stephen1
09-04-2005, 12:57 AM
But something you might want to notice is that we've had four straight losing preseasons and its translated to (so far) three straight losing SEASONS. There's kind of a connection there, if you ask me. But, hey........it's just preseason! Like Carr said, now it's for REAL!

the eagles and patriots both went winless in last years preseason but made it to the superbowl

GP
09-04-2005, 01:03 AM
Check your stats for about the past decade: That wasn't the case for about 99% of the other preseason(s) and reg season(s). Those are two teams who BOTH have been to their respective Conference Championship games for the past THREE years or so, and so they have earned the right to be trusted when it comes to turning on the switch between preseason and regular season for the ONE time that they did so.

Nice try, though.

DomDavis
09-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Check your stats for about the past decade: That wasn't the case for about 99% of the other preseason(s) and reg season(s). Those are two teams who BOTH have been to their respective Conference Championship games for the past THREE years or so, and so they have earned the right to be trusted when it comes to turning on the switch between preseason and regular season for the ONE time that they did so.

Nice try, though.

Oh, so you want teams besides the Eagles and Patriots? Well, for one, the Colts went 0-5 this year. But let's go back to last year.

The Colts (12-4) finished 2-2.
The Steelers (15-1) finished 2-2.
The Broncos (10-6) went 2-3.
The Packers (10-6, div. champs) went 1-3.
As did the Eagles and Patriots.

Furthermore, the Patriots didn't just lose - they lost two of their games by scores of 31-3 and 31-0. But yeah, some teams get a free pass for these games and others don't... suuuure. There are six of last year's playoffs teams, all at .500 or below.

But you want more than one year, you say? Alright, let's go back to 2003.

The Ravens (10-6, div. champs) went 1-3.
The Packers (10-6, div. champs) went 2-3.
The Rams (12-4, div. champs) went 1-3.
The Seahawks (10-6) went 2-2.
The Eagles (12-4) went 2-2.

To make it even more glaring, let's look from the opposite perspective.

The Cardinals (4-12) went 4-0.
The Bills (6-10) went 3-1.
The Jaguars (5-11) went 3-1.
The Buccaneers (7-9) went 4-1.
The 49ers (7-9) went 3-1.
The Jets (6-10) went 3-2.

I can go back to other preseasons if you want, but as you can tell, that 99 percent correlation figure of yours isn't holding up very well.

What is it with this "The preseason is meaningless" mantra?

It's an epidemic.

I burned down a Wal-Mart a few days ago....but the cool thing about it is that I did it in August. Hey, it's September now and it doesn't count!

If the government said that crimes committed in August didn't count on your record and wouldn't be prosecuted, that's a similar scenario, sort of. :)

If you cant perform in practice what makes you think you can perform when its real .... Kinda like Allen Iverson saying "We're talkin bout Practice , Come on man , Practice" .... funny words from a man with Zero championships.

I dunno, the fact that people aren't going all out in practice? That they don't want to run some plays so they can stay away from injury? The fact that they don't want to reveal secrets? If they were as motivated for preseason games as regular season, you'd have a point.

DomDavis
09-04-2005, 12:00 PM
Wow, are you in for a letdown next Sunday.

Heard the same in '03 after a 34-3 loss to Tampa to end the preseason... but then something magical happened. When the games actually had relevance, the Texans came out, played better and won their opening game at Miami. How shocking that they improved once the games actually meant something!!! :rolleyes:

I feel confident in week one. I'm expecting a win, but because it's on the road, I wouldn't be shocked if we lose by three points or less. Whatever the case, we'll play very well.

ThaShark316
09-04-2005, 01:22 PM
*Bookmarks this thread*

Just so I can come back to watch people eat crow when Carr's #s are pretty damn good this season.

DomDavis, I agree with what you're saying. To add to that, look at the Chiefs and Colts, both WINLESS in the preseason, I seriously doubt if its a "should we get rid of Green/Manning" thing in KC/Indy Country.

It was funny,then kinda stupid, now its really getting sad honestly. QBs in year 4 are getting ready to become great QBs.

By the way, If Carr gets the gate in the near future...everyone is gone along with him. (Capers,Palmer,CC,etc.)

Bottom line, Texans fans will never be satisfied, period.

jmlockett
09-05-2005, 06:34 PM
Perfect Pratice Makes Perfect