PDA

View Full Version : Franchise is heading in the wrong


aggieNzona
09-02-2005, 12:18 AM
direction why?
I am not in H-town so at times I feel a bit out of touch. Can someone fill me in or address my thoughts?

The first few years this franchise did everything right. First class all the way. But something seems to have changed starting with the draft in 2004. The team skiped obvious needs for what seemd like reaches, they repeated that same draft strategy again this year. They also seemed content with not moving forward in the off season. The FA signings where certianly no gain from what the lost. In stead of keeping the best players and adding a few more key people they treaded water. I have been very worried about this team for months, but I keep reading all of you more tuned in talking playoffs. I got a bad feeling and am thinking 5-6 wins max and a lot of boring football.

So, my question is has something in the orginization changed? Is McNair not spending like he was? Have there been key personell changes? Who is calling the personell shots? Is this all on Capers? And will they fire Palmer? I am guessing if this season is a colapse there will be a complete regeme change. Bring me up to speed fans! Thanks!

aggiechance
09-02-2005, 12:32 AM
Good points...I'm really confused about this years draft...was no good left tackle available...why are our backup qb's so average (Dave Ragone needs to produce in the US now)....why do we draft well in the first round and poor in the 3rd round (ie Hollings). I'm thinking we need to change things up too...I'm not ready to dump on Capers...just confused on why we are heading east and west versus north.
:texflag:

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 12:34 AM
Ive said from the begining of camp they would probably go 7-9 but after the past two weeks my expectations have gone down to 5-11 ... i listed my opinion of the Texans needs and offseason moves in another post and will copy and past them here http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=11535

Ive pretty much predicted another 7-9 or worse record this year .... Why you ask ... thats pretty simple .


First of all you CUT two of your leaders and arguably most productive players on the devensive side of the ball in J.Sharper and Aaron Glenn not to mention the release of J.Foreman who was a starter although borderline . Sharper is a Starter on almost every team in the NFL . Glenn may have lost a step but his leadership and cover ability will be sorely missed . To give up two quality players like that for ZERO COMPENSATION is just not good business . Salary Cap or no ... :brickwall
The players they plugged into those positions are un-proven if not questionable thenselves in Greenwood and Buchannon .

Moved another player to a new position in K.Wong . Yes i realize he has played inside before but that was in the Vikings 4-3 . There will be a transition period for Wong no doubt .

The Offense has three Glaring weaknesses ....

First the O-Line and a particular weakness at LT where we had S.Wand last season and now have V.Riley who has played better than Wand ..... While Riley has played decent and is an upgrade he isnt the cornerstone player needed to protect Carr's blindside . The O-line is still sub par and lacks depth . Carr will likely lead the league again in times sacked .

Many on this board including myself have said the Texans lack a multi-dimensional TE . Bruener ,likely the starter come opening day , was known for his blocking when w/ the Steelers hasnt done much of that since coming to the Texans and his pass catching abilities are .... Poor to say the least . Billy Miller couldnt block for a high school team . Matt Murphy has been hot and cold so far . Joppru isnt listed on the Texans depth chart and is injuried for a thrid straight season . Looks like he'll end up on the PuP list again or get cut .

At the Skill positions its Carr , A.J , D.D. and a buncha no-bodies . The Texans need a second reciever to compliment A.J.
Bradford has had three seasons to show he could be that player .... it was evident when no other NFL team would sign him that he isnt that player . The Texans re-signed him as more of an insurance policy if you ask me .... Or the lack of a better free agent option at the position within their price range .
Gaffeny has been injury plagued this pre-season and hasnt had opportunity to show if he can improve upon last year .
For all those who think Mathis is the savior here .... he was drafted purely on Potential , this kid is Raw with a Capitol R.A.W. His college team didnt even have a reciever's coach ....He will contribute on special teams but dont look for him to see much action at reciever until mid-season if not later .
Swinton has been a bright spot so far at reciever and returning kicks .... although he may not get much time at reciever .

While on the subject of the skill positions ..... SOMEONE PLEASE CUT T.HOLLINGS , we have seen ENOUGH !! Cut your losses and keep someone who will make good use of a roster spot !

There have been a few bright spots for the Texans this off-season but i just dont think the team has improved itself , in fact they may have taken a step backwards and their record will show it in the coming season . 6-10 or 7-9 isnt the end of the world but for most of us fans it isnt what we expect from this orginization . We expect sound decisions and progress .... :texflag:


Flame away , i know its coming ! :tomato:


:goodnight

These are the type of responses i got ....

why did you take all that time to write this drivel? seriously.. you should be spending more time reading what knowledgable fans have to say, not forming flawed opinions off of whatever snippets of information you catch here and there.

SESupergenius
09-02-2005, 01:20 AM
This is why it's going to be incredibly difficult for the :homer: to come to grips with another losing season, their expectations are too high.

ROYDESTROY
09-02-2005, 03:01 AM
This is why it's going to be incredibly difficult for the :homer: to come to grips with another losing season, their expectations are too high.

You nailed it bro..reality will set in..but more excuses will be given :)

SESupergenius
09-02-2005, 03:07 AM
You nailed it bro..reality will set in..but more excuses will be given :)
Just like Cowboy fans think they will do any better. :crying:

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:23 AM
Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know) Now u have these Texicans who are the same ol' same ol'. As a Cowboys fan for over 30 years all i can say is until you win the big one u need to shut up. I mean no harm to u Houston fans but come on, Win the big one and then u will get some respect. I think it is funny how Dallas can win Super bowls then have a down time but they reload and do it again while the Houston pro team is stuck in the mud saying wait til next year.......Broken record get rid of it :confused:

texan279
09-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know) Now u have these Texicans who are the sam ol' same ol'. As a Cowboys fan for over 30 years all i can say is until you win the big one u need to shut up. I mean no harm to u Houston fans but come on, Win the big one and then u will get some respect. I think it is funny how Dallas can win Super bowls then have a down time but they reload and do it again while the Houston pro team is stuck in the mud saying wait til next year.......Broken record get rid of it

The Texans have been around for all of 3 years...in that time the Cowboys have won 21 games and the Texans have won 16...And when was the last time the cowgirls won a Super Bowl, 10 years ago? Come back when the girls when one in this decade...

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:32 AM
Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know) Now u have these Texicans who are the same ol' same ol'. As a Cowboys fan for over 30 years all i can say is until you win the big one u need to shut up. I mean no harm to u Houston fans but come on, Win the big one and then u will get some respect. I think it is funny how Dallas can win Super bowls then have a down time but they reload and do it again while the Houston pro team is stuck in the mud saying wait til next year.......Broken record get rid of it :confused:dallas cowboys five time world champion

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 09:33 AM
Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know)


Those Oilers teams ran into a DYNASTY called the Pittsburg Steelers ... the same team that beat the Cowpies in the Big One ...

Those Oilers Vs. Steelers games were always fun to watch , They hated us , we hated them . The Oilers DID NOT CHOKE , they were simply beaten by a better team , so which is it , did your Cowpies choke in the Big One or were they just beaten by a better team ?


Go :fishing: elsewhere

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:37 AM
i did not call your blessed oilers a childish name but i have to agree the steelers of the 70's were a handfull and the dallas pittsburg SB's were exciting.

keyfro
09-02-2005, 09:38 AM
i don't think this franchise is headed in the wrong direction i just think we are running the wrong offense for it...with the receivers we have and the quarterback we need to be running a offense similiar to oakland...go deep and go often...our defense will be better...i'm just worried that this 3-step passing routes is something that carr doesn't adapt well too

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:39 AM
earl campbell was a great RB but Bum Phillips ran him into the ground

OzzO
09-02-2005, 09:40 AM
The first few years this franchise did everything right. First class all the way. But something seems to have changed starting with the draft in 2004. The team skiped obvious needs for what seemd like reaches, they repeated that same draft strategy again this year.

What obvious needs? Who would you have taken over whom the Texans chose? (Of course, taking into acount hindsight now.) I think the team has skipped the FANS obvious needs, except the first couple of seasons where we knew who we were going to pick.

They also seemed content with not moving forward in the off season.

I'm sure that's their plan.

The FA signings where certianly no gain from what the lost. In stead of keeping the best players and adding a few more key people they treaded water.

So, basically keep the players that are getting on in age with a back loaded contract? No thanks - you can head over to the Raiders for that.... though they have been changing that philosphy.

I have been very worried about this team for months, but I keep reading all of you more tuned in talking playoffs. I got a bad feeling and am thinking 5-6 wins max and a lot of boring football.

It's good to have the high goals of playoffs, personally I think we'll still just miss it, but we'll have our first winning season this year.

So, my question is has something in the orginization changed? Is McNair not spending like he was? Have there been key personell changes? Who is calling the personell shots? Is this all on Capers? And will they fire Palmer? I am guessing if this season is a colapse there will be a complete regeme change. Bring me up to speed fans! Thanks!

Yes, something in the organization has changed - we're growing as a team and the expectations are higher now (some are excessive expectations). Is it all on Capers? No - it's on all the coaches, the players, and the front office. If there is a collapse, I don't think it'll be an overhaul, re: Browns but it will be interesting to see what happens... besides for all the "I told you so" that will appear on the boards.

Just sit back, relax... pop one open and enjoy the season. If there's a frustration, just means you love the team.

texan279
09-02-2005, 09:41 AM
i don't think this franchise is headed in the wrong direction i just think we are running the wrong offense for it...with the receivers we have and the quarterback we need to be running a offense similiar to oakland...go deep and go often...our defense will be better...i'm just worried that this 3-step passing routes is something that carr doesn't adapt well too

I agree...line Carr up in the gun, put AJ and Gaffney on one side, and Mathis and Bradford (I guess if he has to stay) on the other...Bring the run and shoot back to Houston! We want Jack Pardee back! :texans:

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:45 AM
Dallas was beaten by the better team that game but damn it was a good game right to the end

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:46 AM
jack pardee give me a break

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:48 AM
how bout Wally lembeck

randy54
09-02-2005, 09:50 AM
:homer:

The Preacher
09-02-2005, 10:01 AM
Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know) Now u have these Texicans who are the same ol' same ol'. As a Cowboys fan for over 30 years all i can say is until you win the big one u need to shut up. I mean no harm to u Houston fans but come on, Win the big one and then u will get some respect. I think it is funny how Dallas can win Super bowls then have a down time but they reload and do it again while the Houston pro team is stuck in the mud saying wait til next year.......Broken record get rid of it :confused:


You go to other teams' MB's to put down their fans? Classy

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 10:10 AM
Dallas was beaten by the better team that game but damn it was a good game right to the end
jack pardee give me a break
how bout Wally lembeck
:homer:


4 posts in a row and nothing intelligent to say .... geez dont the Cowpies have some drama on their board :goodnight

Bubbajwp
09-02-2005, 10:35 AM
randy54 Houston football has always been a joke, U go back to the Oilers all they did was CHOKE and the fans always loved them ( why i do not know) Now u have these Texicans who are the same ol' same ol'. As a Cowboys fan for over 30 years all i can say is until you win the big one u need to shut up. I mean no harm to u Houston fans but come on, Win the big one and then u will get some respect. I think it is funny how Dallas can win Super bowls then have a down time but they reload and do it again while the Houston pro team is stuck in the mud saying wait til next year.......Broken record get rid of it How many years have the cowboys been reloading know. Also i realy like the cowboys strategy. Sign a forty year old QB wait a year and sign another has been. Also I realy like how Marcellus Wiley did for yall last year man what a steal.

the wonger need food
09-02-2005, 10:51 AM
So, my question is has something in the orginization changed? Is McNair not spending like he was? Have there been key personell changes? Who is calling the personell shots? Is this all on Capers? And will they fire Palmer? I am guessing if this season is a colapse there will be a complete regeme change. Bring me up to speed fans! Thanks!

Yes, the organization has changed and it has nothing to do with McNair's spending or personnel changes. In the beginning stages they were young and hungry and felt like they could build the team into a winner in a short period of time with their core group of players. They had no business being in some of the games that they were and played above their talent level quite a few times.

Somewhere along the way they figured out that they are very limited in what they can accomplish by the gameplan. See Sharper and Walker's comments at the end of last year as an example. This team is not motivated to play for the coaching staff, much less themselves, thus the last 5 gutless performances.

Will Capers and Palmer be fired??? Absolutely, the question is when. There is a reason that they were out of work when the Texans came calling. Dom's routine of standing on the sidelines taking notes and catching flies with his mouth is wearing thin. He is not good at motivating, game planning or adjusting to the opponent. And a junior high coach could predict 90% of Palmer's play calls.

Huge
09-02-2005, 10:54 AM
direction why?
What are you basing this on?

2002 - 4-12
2003 - 5-11
2004 - 7-9

How is that not improving? Are you basing this on the performance of the team in the pre-season? I surely hope not. And even if they don't improve on 7-9 this season...so what?

I think the biggest problem is expectations. Your comment about how they did everything right the first few years is a good example. Who's to say everything they did was right? I read many a post that claimed a Super Bowl appearance within the first 5 years. Did these people even consider just how difficult it is to do that? I highly doubt it. Being given a new team with a new start guarantees you nothing except that you'll have a home team to cheer for.

This game is all about peaks and valleys. As fans, you should practice patience so that the peaks are as enjoyable as possible. It's the valleys that make the peaks even more enjoyable. As a Cowboys fan, trust me on this one.

blah, blah, blah....hominuh, hominuh, hominuh...
That's about the gist of it.

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 11:03 AM
Somewhere along the way they figured out that they are very limited in what they can accomplish by the gameplan. See Sharper and Walker's comments at the end of last year as an example. This team is not motivated to play for the coaching staff, much less themselves, thus the last 5 gutless performances.


I addressed Sharpers comments in another post within the past week and was told ....
I think youre looking for drama when there isnt any

I think you are right , the team in general feels the same way Sharper did last season ....

the wonger need food
09-02-2005, 11:10 AM
This is what Sharper said to get him cut...

"I was done with losing that first season. No more positives. You have to produce. Somebody has to show us the way. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but who's going to direct us there? We need somebody to direct us to wins instead of close games."

That's not drama, just fact. I have a feeling that we will hear something similar from a lot more players this year.

infantrycak
09-02-2005, 11:39 AM
This is what Sharper said to get him cut...

"I was done with losing that first season. No more positives. You have to produce. Somebody has to show us the way. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but who's going to direct us there? We need somebody to direct us to wins instead of close games."

IMO it is BS that this comment is what got Sharper cut. His cap figure and play got him cut along with a overinflated self value. The Texans were renegotiating with him to sign him to an extension and they couldn't come to terms. I'd bet he got offered more by the Texans than he got from the Seahawks.

What the comment above does show is Sharper wasn't the leader everyone assumes every veteran player is otherwise he would have been motivating the D and not standing around waiting for someone else to do it.

nunusguy
09-02-2005, 11:49 AM
The Texans have been around for all of 3 years...in that time the Cowboys have won 21 games and the Texans have won 16...And when was the last time the cowgirls won a Super Bowl, 10 years ago? Come back when the girls when one in this decade...
Well said, and while we're at it, we might remind him about the first game we
played. Can't remember who we played, but the score was something like,
ah, lets see, was it 19-10 ?
Don't understand people spending time on other Boards ? Too much time on their hands, they have been banned from their team's Boards ? I can't think of anything more boring than spending time on a Giants Board, or
Broncos Board, etc.

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 11:53 AM
This is what Sharper said to get him cut...

"I was done with losing that first season. No more positives. You have to produce. Somebody has to show us the way. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but who's going to direct us there? We need somebody to direct us to wins instead of close games."

That's not drama, just fact. I have a feeling that we will hear something similar from a lot more players this year.

This is the comment I was refering to .... and I agree that is what got him cut .
One thing in capers defense here .... he didnt d!ck around and let the situation fester nor did he let this become a distraction in the media , he QUIETLY put it to rest .... Good Grief did I just defend Capers ? :bag:

IMO it is BS that this comment is what got Sharper cut. His cap figure and play got him cut along with a overinflated self value. The Texans were renegotiating with him to sign him to an extension and they couldn't come to terms. I'd bet he got offered more by the Texans than he got from the Seahawks.

What the comment above does show is Sharper wasn't the leader everyone assumes every veteran player is otherwise he would have been motivating the D and not standing around waiting for someone else to do it.

I have to disagree with you on this , although his contract had some bearing upon his release I sincerely believe it was his comments that got him cut , they were also a huge part of why no one would offer much (or anything) in trade for him .... why pay for what you can get for free . Most GM's knew he would be released therefor wouldnt give anything in return.

As for his leadership .... It took a lot more to speak out against Capers and the rest of the staff than to blindly follow .

beerlover
09-02-2005, 12:04 PM
there is really no truth or show me the proof that the Texans would not keep Sharper if they could have agreed on a new contract. my take is that he was on the downhill side of his career and half a step slower, hence the Texans went after a faster, younger Greenwood.

you knows exactly if JS was singling out individuals or the organization as a whole, me thinks he was just speaking out of frustration at the time :)

infantrycak
09-02-2005, 12:20 PM
I have to disagree with you on this , although his contract had some bearing upon his release I sincerely believe it was his comments that got him cut , they were also a huge part of why no one would offer much (or anything) in trade for him .... why pay for what you can get for free . Most GM's knew he would be released therefor wouldnt give anything in return.

Well no point in arguing with the firmly convinced crystal ball believers. There isn't a shred of evidence but don't let that stop y'all.

the wonger need food
09-02-2005, 12:57 PM
IMO it is BS that this comment is what got Sharper cut. His cap figure and play got him cut along with a overinflated self value. The Texans were renegotiating with him to sign him to an extension and they couldn't come to terms. I'd bet he got offered more by the Texans than he got from the Seahawks.

What the comment above does show is Sharper wasn't the leader everyone assumes every veteran player is otherwise he would have been motivating the D and not standing around waiting for someone else to do it.

Yes, his contract had something to do with his release, but it was not the only factor. The guy was arguably their best defensive player for the first 3 years.

These comments were made after the Colts game and the defense had actually played pretty well only giving up 2 TD passes to Manning. Of course Carr and the offense had just laid another egg.

TEXANRED
09-02-2005, 03:15 PM
direction why?
I am not in H-town so at times I feel a bit out of touch. Can someone fill me in or address my thoughts?

The first few years this franchise did everything right. First class all the way. But something seems to have changed starting with the draft in 2004. The team skiped obvious needs for what seemd like reaches, they repeated that same draft strategy again this year. They also seemed content with not moving forward in the off season. The FA signings where certianly no gain from what the lost. In stead of keeping the best players and adding a few more key people they treaded water. I have been very worried about this team for months, but I keep reading all of you more tuned in talking playoffs. I got a bad feeling and am thinking 5-6 wins max and a lot of boring football.

So, my question is has something in the orginization changed? Is McNair not spending like he was? Have there been key personell changes? Who is calling the personell shots? Is this all on Capers? And will they fire Palmer? I am guessing if this season is a colapse there will be a complete regeme change. Bring me up to speed fans! Thanks!


Now I am not attacking, but would like to point out that DD and Morency are third and fourth round picks. Wasent peek a third rounder? Wasent Polk, who I like and think has great potential, imo, a later round pick. Faggins, CC brown and armstrong all later round picks. Yes Hill was a what wereya thinkin kinda pick and so was Hollings other than that I feel Cass has done a pretty solid job.

We have tried to go after free agents but only offer money that the organization feels they are worth. You dont get any bigger than going after pace they way they did. The Texans have tried upgrading the O-line but good left tackles dont grow on trees.

I think we as a fan base just need to relax, remember to breath, and enjoy the season. And if that dosent work then I am sure you can get help from your 12 little friends that come handily in a carton.

:texflag:

texan279
09-02-2005, 04:01 PM
This is what Sharper said to get him cut...

"I was done with losing that first season. No more positives. You have to produce. Somebody has to show us the way. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but who's going to direct us there? We need somebody to direct us to wins instead of close games."


Somebody to lead the way? He should know the way, he has a Super Bowl ring...do the need the coaches need to help him wipe after he uses the bathroom too?

SESupergenius
09-02-2005, 04:11 PM
IMO it is BS that this comment is what got Sharper cut. His cap figure and play got him cut along with a overinflated self value. The Texans were renegotiating with him to sign him to an extension and they couldn't come to terms. I'd bet he got offered more by the Texans than he got from the Seahawks.

What the comment above does show is Sharper wasn't the leader everyone assumes every veteran player is otherwise he would have been motivating the D and not standing around waiting for someone else to do it.
That's horsehockey, and I'd love to sell you a bridge in Louisiana. I think that Sharper felt this team was going nowhere and said something about it. He wouldn't budge on renegotiating his contract because he is still a very good player. Greenwood is no Sharper and we overpaid for him, sure Sharper wasn't going to get paid as much as his current contract with Texans, but he probably will get paid more by not restructuring with the Texans. He probably wanted to play out his year at his salary and negotiate for a new contract after that, not restructure and take a pay cut. Greenwood is not an upgrade over Sharper, he's was just a player we needed because Sharper was leaving.

SESupergenius
09-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Somebody to lead the way? He should know the way, he has a Super Bowl ring...do the need the coaches need to help him wipe after he uses the bathroom too?
He was talking about the coaches, not the teammates. He was a veteran leader on this team, don't try and deminish his efforts for political reasons. Gary Walker basically said the same thing.

LBC_Justin
09-02-2005, 04:27 PM
He wouldn't budge on renegotiating his contract because he is still a very good player. Greenwood is no Sharper and we overpaid for him, sure Sharper wasn't going to get paid as much as his current contract with Texans, but he probably will get paid more by not restructuring with the Texans. He probably wanted to play out his year at his salary and negotiate for a new contract after that, not restructure and take a pay cut. Greenwood is not an upgrade over Sharper, he's was just a player we needed because Sharper was leaving.
you need to go back and watch the tapes of the games last season. Don't just look at the stats because they were very very very misleading. Sharper was not a good play last year, in fact he was a liability.

Again.......Go back and watch the game film. You will be surprised how much you will change your mind on this issue. At first I agreed with you then after hearing people talk about how he made most of his tackles after 5 year gains and how he couldnt do anything productive when he drops back in pass coverge, I went back and watch the film. Wow they were more than right. If you are a fan of Sharper and you watch the game film and focus on his position you will be SHOCKED.

I am not surprised they are already dissapointed in his play in Seattle.

Texas
09-02-2005, 05:22 PM
Oh well we will be good someday...

Corrosion
09-02-2005, 06:35 PM
you need to go back and watch the tapes of the games last season. Don't just look at the stats because they were very very very misleading. Sharper was not a good play last year, in fact he was a liability.

Again.......Go back and watch the game film. You will be surprised how much you will change your mind on this issue. At first I agreed with you then after hearing people talk about how he made most of his tackles after 5 year gains and how he couldnt do anything productive when he drops back in pass coverge, I went back and watch the film. Wow they were more than right. If you are a fan of Sharper and you watch the game film and focus on his position you will be SHOCKED.

I am not surprised they are already dissapointed in his play in Seattle.


Lets take a look at the defense for a moment before we jump to conclusions ...

The Texans play a 3-4 defense which puts 3 D-linemen against 5 O-linemen giving the offense an immediate advantage ... Unless two of those three D-linemen are dominant enough to demand a double team EVERY PLAY . Ill venture as far as to say the Texand did NOT have two linemen of that calibur last year . G-Funk played poorly (was he hurt , is he washed up or is he not suited to the 3-4 ) for the majority of the season . Seth Payne was coming off of a major injury and is just now begining to show he can play up to NEAR his old form . Robaire Smith played well at times but didnt demand to be double teamed every down ..... That leaves two O-Linemen free to meet the LB's Beyond the line of scrimmage . Which leaves the LB's to fight off their blocks and make tackles down field ....
This will explain a lot of the troubles when teams run between the tackles .
It could have been much worse against the run had Wong and Babin not been solid on the outside . They both did a good job of keeping plays from getting outside with any regularity .
The Texans DID NOT play an aggressive form of the 3-4 last season ... which is one of the strengths of the 3-4 ... the blitz can come from ANY place at ANY time . They Say they didnt have the personel in place to play aggressively. Which .... according to Capers and Fangio explains why they couldnt get any pressure on the opposing QB's ... giving them all day to carve up the secondary .

Bottom line is that unless your front three are dominant this defense is vulnnerable both to the run and pass .
They have no such excuses this season . :bomb:

DoCt3rJ
09-02-2005, 07:57 PM
All i'm gonna say is Cowboys 3-4 defense looks alot better than ours =). Infact, Cowboys offense and defense look better than ours as of right now. Mainly I think because cboys oline is alot better than ours, we have better WR and QB, but Jones is prolly a tad bit better than DD. I'm liking Cowboys depth though at dline and cb, plus throw in a probowl safety and a rookie D.Ware whos showed alot more promise than Peak and Babin have showed. We may have a down season, but I'm sure we will pick it back up.

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 12:58 PM
you need to go back and watch the tapes of the games last season. Don't just look at the stats because they were very very very misleading. Sharper was not a good play last year, in fact he was a liability.

Again.......Go back and watch the game film. You will be surprised how much you will change your mind on this issue. At first I agreed with you then after hearing people talk about how he made most of his tackles after 5 year gains and how he couldnt do anything productive when he drops back in pass coverge, I went back and watch the film. Wow they were more than right. If you are a fan of Sharper and you watch the game film and focus on his position you will be SHOCKED.

I am not surprised they are already dissapointed in his play in Seattle.
I've watched several games and Sharper did get beat few times, shocked would not be the word I would use. I've seen more 3rd down completions by the other teams 3rd wide reciever than anything. Are our LB's supposed to cover them?

infantrycak
09-08-2005, 01:09 PM
I've watched several games and Sharper did get beat few times, shocked would not be the word I would use. I've seen more 3rd down completions by the other teams 3rd wide reciever than anything. Are our LB's supposed to cover them?

Well, yeah a lot of times they are. Frankly I don't like it very much either. It is fine IMO to have LB's covering WR's in the 1st 10 yds and covering RB's and TE's further, but lots of times last year and several times this preseason (I think there was one where Babin was in coverage 20+ yds down field on a WR) we leave LB's too long in coverage on WR's IMO. I don't care if Greenwood, Derrick Johnson whoever is as fast in a 40 yd as a WR or CB, they aren't built the same and just can't match up that long.

HardKnockTexan
09-08-2005, 01:15 PM
Capers and Fangio do a good job of calling the right defense. Almost every time a team brings in a 3rd WR they send the nickle package onto the field. Idealy, this would put a LB on a TE and a Nickleback on a WR. The problem with this package last season is that the only LB that could cover was Wong. Foreman and Sharper were far too slow to be productive in coverage and Babin was learning a completley new possition on the fly. This year with our new speedy defense im thinking those 3rd and long plays that went for first downs far too often last season will be dramitically decreased.

GP
09-08-2005, 02:45 PM
I am pleased with our defensive backfield.

I am less pleased with our LBs and defensive down linemen. I think the LB play will be better than last year, which isn't hard to accomplish. I also think our defensive line will be a little better than last year.

It's just time to accept the facts: Most of our "core" Texans that we acquired at the beginning of our team's formation (Sharper, Glenn, Gary Walker, etc.) were in their prime...now, they are fading quickly as aging veterans who are injury prone and losing a step as the experts would say.

Our future cannot be built upon those players. They allowed us to at least be a little competitive with the other well-established and well-stocked NFL teams. The torch is passing, and Dunta Robinson is the leader of our defense if you ask me. It starts with him. he has that rare ability to change the flow of the game. Shockingly, Marcus Coleman is also still a force to be reckoned with, but I see this as probably his last year with us.

I am pleased with the vast majority of our draft picks, especially with this year's crop of draftees (Mathis, Morency, TJ, etc.).

What I am not pleased with (very displeased) is the coaching and game strategy. It's well below the NFL standard, IMO. I respect Capers as a person of good character who has been a father to this team, but I think it's time for Capers to ride into the sunset. Keep a watch on Charlie Weis, head coach of the Irish, former coordinator for the Pats. His first game was a smashing success, and the consensus was that he called the perfect plays at the perfect time, befuddling the opposing team as he did when was with the Pats.

When a coach can have dual success in the NFL AND in college...you know it's not a fluke. He ought to be someone that McNair keeps an eye on. I dont know if Weis would leave since he just got there...but it's worth a shot.

The talent is here. The coaching and game planning are just horrid. I have no idea what to think about Chris Palmer. One day I hate him, and one day I think he's OK. I don't know if he's just a captive of the system and he can't always do what he wants to do, or if he's always 50-50 on his play calling.

One thing's for sure: This is absolutely the tell-all season for the Texans in terms of whether we continue to tweak...or if we make big moves.

It's too late to do anything now. Only a 5 or 6-game losing streak will get Capers and/or other personnel fired. Might as well sit back and see how it plays out. But Capers, IMO, is fighting a losing battle and needs to pass the torch at the end of this year.

Porky
09-08-2005, 03:08 PM
Fangio was kicked out of Indy for making his defense to complicated, too much reading, and keying, and not enough turning the guys loose, and letting their athletic ability take over. He will be fired here for the same reason, and so will Capers at some point. I see way too much "read and react" and not enough in your face smashmouth football on both sides of the ball. I think that is a Capers trait, and I for one am about ready for a change should it not work again this year.

bckey
09-08-2005, 03:13 PM
I think our secondary is suspect right now. P-Buc is a big ? right now. He was benched in Oakland for a while and then traded to us. Dunta is only in his 2nd year and while he is very good he will still make a few mistakes because of his inexperience. Put CC Brown behind them at SS and we can be burned with the pass if we can't get pressure on the QB quick.

Our LB's are a big ? also. I am not convinced that Babin/Wong/Greenwood/Peek are an upgrade over Babin/Sharper/Foreman/Wong. Speed wise yes but speed alone doesn't translate into an upgrade. We could have just cut Foreman, started Peek at ROLB, and moved Wong over to Foremans spot and kept Sharper. I never heard anybody dog out Sharper until after he was cut. Then a whole bunch of people started saying he was slow and declining and needed to be cut like they knew all along. Same with Glenn. The cuts we needed to make are ones that we couldn't because of contracts. GFunk and McKinney.

powda
09-08-2005, 03:14 PM
What I am not pleased with (very displeased) is the coaching and game strategy. It's well below the NFL standard, IMO.


The talent is here. The coaching and game planning are just horrid.


is this like another post of yours where you question the texans D cause your not a fan of the 3-4 defense? what suggestions do you have for the coaching and "game strategy"? dont tell me you want a better player here or there....everybody wants better players everywhere...tell me what fundamental scheme flaws we have...and then tell me what great insight you could pass onto capers to help our team.

people are quick to point out problems but never answers.



It's too late to do anything now. Only a 5 or 6-game losing streak will get Capers and/or other personnel fired. Might as well sit back and see how it plays out. But Capers, IMO, is fighting a losing battle and needs to pass the torch at the end of this year.

the sky is falling huh?

BigBull17
09-08-2005, 03:18 PM
But Sharper proves that all the experience doesnt make up for lack of speed. He was giving up big plays to TEs and RBs and his tackles were after 5-6yrd gains. I know our starters are unproven but raw speed can cover up mistakes, while reading the play right doesnt mean you will get there if your too slow. And a "locker room cancer" from Oakland means he must be a boy scout.

:texflag:

Lucky
09-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Fangio was kicked out of Indy for making his defense to complicated, too much reading, and keying, and not enough turning the guys loose, and letting their athletic ability take over...
What athletes are we talking about here? You mean superstars such as Chad Bratzke, Chad Cota, & Jeff Burris? Who could forget the great Idrees Bashir? The Colts finally turned those guys loose when Dungy took over. Turned them loose to the streets, anyway.

BradK10
09-08-2005, 04:02 PM
.....

infantrycak
09-08-2005, 04:39 PM
I never heard anybody dog out Sharper until after he was cut. Then a whole bunch of people started saying he was slow and declining and needed to be cut like they knew all along. Same with Glenn.

Then you weren't reading around here because both were criticized for their play during the 2004 season. Personally, I did not think the criticism of Glenn was accurate and think letting him go may very well turn out to be a mistake. Sharper on the other hand, I did feel and post was noticeably not playing as well as in prior years.

SESupergenius
09-08-2005, 04:57 PM
I think our secondary is suspect right now. P-Buc is a big ? right now. He was benched in Oakland for a while and then traded to us. Dunta is only in his 2nd year and while he is very good he will still make a few mistakes because of his inexperience. Put CC Brown behind them at SS and we can be burned with the pass if we can't get pressure on the QB quick.

Our LB's are a big ? also. I am not convinced that Babin/Wong/Greenwood/Peek are an upgrade over Babin/Sharper/Foreman/Wong. Speed wise yes but speed alone doesn't translate into an upgrade. We could have just cut Foreman, started Peek at ROLB, and moved Wong over to Foremans spot and kept Sharper. I never heard anybody dog out Sharper until after he was cut. Then a whole bunch of people started saying he was slow and declining and needed to be cut like they knew all along. Same with Glenn. The cuts we needed to make are ones that we couldn't because of contracts. GFunk and McKinney.
I concur, Sharper was not even in the minds of the fans to be cut. Sure he a less than stellar year, but after battling his injury at the end of the year and playing next to Foreman (who was cut by the Raiders too) he should have been cut a little slack. Last I saw, he's a starting LB on a team with more hope for the playoffs than we are. Sharper bashing became popular once we found out he wasn't coming back. Just 2 seasons ago he was recognized by most fans around here as the main cog in our linebacking unit, now fans think he has lost a step. Hmmm, I guess Seattle didn't get that message.

infantrycak
09-08-2005, 05:04 PM
Sharper bashing became popular once we found out he wasn't coming back.

You are correct that a whole bunch of people came out for the 1st time after he was cut acting like he was bad to just average. On the other hand, there most certainly were people who observed during the season, i.e. when there wasn't even a hint of him being cut in the air, that he wasn't playing up to his previous seasons. No he did not fall all the way to bad LB, but he wasn't playing at his previous arguable/just outside pro-bowl level either.

bckey
09-09-2005, 04:57 AM
Then you weren't reading around here because both were criticized for their play during the 2004 season.

No I try to read on here every day.

GP
09-09-2005, 09:58 AM
In response to Powda:

Look at our NFL rankings in pretty much all the defensive categories. We were 22nd in total defense last year. That puts our defense in the bottom one-third of the LEAGUE, let alone the AFC.

Nuff said. Stats speak the truth when people try to cloud the waters with baseless opinions. Your response is just the typical "If you love the Texans, then you must believe that everything is okay....no worries....the sky is not falling...etc."

The 3-4 as I have seen it in Houston (and as the stats speak) is not working. How in the world can three guys be expected to be outnumbered against AT LEAST five offensive lineman all game long? And then teams through a big FB or a big TE into the mix...sheesh! With four defensive linemen, IMO, you can better control the line of scrimmage. You still have LBs, and the way our defensive backfield plays...they're practically pseudo-linebackers with their ability to come up in run support (Marcus Coleman). I just don't see how we lose a lot of ground to offenses by having four down linemen. Heck, a lot of the times I see us lining up a LB as a fourth down linemen anyway.

Our whole team suffers because of our inability to effectively and consistently call a good game (play calling on offense). SO many three-and-outs make our defense stay on the field longer, giving opposing teams' defense too much rest time....which then leads to their defense coming out and laying the smackdown on our offense...over and over and over...it's a vicious cycle.

Lucky
09-09-2005, 10:15 AM
In response to Powda:

Look at our NFL rankings in pretty much all the defensive categories. We were 22nd in total defense last year. That puts our defense in the bottom one-third of the LEAGUE, let alone the AFC.
Don't you think that's why the Texans made the personnel changes they've made this offseason. This isn't the same defense that was on the field in '04.

infantrycak
09-09-2005, 10:16 AM
IHow in the world can three guys be expected to be outnumbered against AT LEAST five offensive lineman all game long?

This is where your argument loses all credibility--the general idea that a 3-4 just can't work. Obviously it can work and in fact has been used by some of the best D's around. Acting like the 3-4 in inherently unworkable is the most obvious baseless opinion in this thread.

Try stepping back for even half a second and look at what you are talking about with the Texans

DL------------Walker--Payne--Smith
LB's---Babin--Greenwood---Wong---Peek

vs.

DL-------Babin----Walker-----TJohnson-----Peek
LB's--------Greenwood--Wong--Orr/Anderson

Guess what (or sheesh in your vernacular), your front 7 has less beef on the field with the 4-3 alignment (5LB sized guys and 2 DL) than the 3-4 alignment (4 LB sized guys and 3 DL). Changing the position names on the roster for Babin and Peek doesn't make them bigger.

SO many three-and-outs make our defense stay on the field longer, giving opposing teams' defense too much rest time....which then leads to their defense coming out and laying the smackdown on our offense...over and over and over...it's a vicious cycle.

The Texans were 14th in the league in 1st downs last year. The problem wasn't 3 and outs so much as it was marching 50 yards instead of 70. Also, the Texans D was on the field just 1 sec. more per game than the O--i.e. exactly the same amount of time as opposing D's. But don't let those stats mess with your vicious cycle.

Honoring Earl 34
09-09-2005, 10:39 AM
:tv: The most dominant defense in recent memory was the 85 Bears . They had talent and a good scheme . So is it the talent or the scheme with the Texans ?

New England is not as dominating but they win . They are a very bright defense who can even fool Manning with a lot of looks . So are we not that bright of a team ?

HJam72
09-09-2005, 10:57 AM
I would say the the 3-4 is supposed or hoped to have 3 guys take up 5 blockers, but it USUALLY only takes up 4, allowing the 5th to take on a blitzing linebacker. Otherwise, the 3-4 would bring forth a rediculously large number of sacks. If there is a second blitzing LB, he is at least slowed down by a blocking back. The 4-3, on the other hand, is no better. The linemen are smaller on average and there is one less LB. In the end, the 4-3 is slightly better against the run and the 3-4 is slightly better against the pass. The 4-3 is easier to master, but confuses the offense less often. It's all a bunch of trade-offs. It seems to me that sacks in a 4-3 are usually accomplished by the DEs, but they are, for the most part, blocked to the outside in a circle pattern. Going inside for most of them is pointless. The 3-4 is said to be better for pass coverage, but that is partly created by having an extra LB in coverage, limiting the pass rush. It is also partly said to be better for pass coverage by confusing the QB, but this can also be confusing to the LBs themselves when professional Wide-outs are running well executed routes. IT'S ALL A TRADE-OFF.

I say we use whatever we have the best personnel for, keeping in mind that experience at their positions is VERY important.

powda
09-09-2005, 10:58 AM
In response to Powda:
Look at our NFL rankings in pretty much all the defensive categories. We were 22nd in total defense last year.



Stats speak the truth when people try to cloud the waters with baseless opinions.

so injuries have no impact on the game? so starting 3 rookies has no impact on the game? so 2 players starting at new poistions has no impact on the game?

im not an appologist. 22nd isnt good enough for me either but if your going to be critical look to why we got those results. dont call for a new coach out of "whoever university" cause your buddy told ya they looked good.

the logic you missed was...the coaches had questions about the secondary and rightly so...in order to safeguard that the lbs were in coverage more often.

and i find it odd how people have all of a sudden forgotten how good our d looked at the end of last season.

i have yet to see you back up an opinion. all youve actually said was you think the 3-4 is flawed. you think we're destined for failure cause your a bigger fan of the 4-3 then the 3-4. and yet...our opinions are baseless.


Your response is just the typical "If you love the Texans, then you must believe that everything is okay....no worries....the sky is not falling...etc."

and your response is "good god, jesus help us because we havent looked so good in preseason. they're not playing the defense i want them to....waaaaaaaa."

gimme a break. im so sick of reading this **** over and over again before the season even starts.


The 3-4 as I have seen it in Houston (and as the stats speak) is not working. How in the world can three guys be expected to be outnumbered against AT LEAST five offensive lineman all game long?

3 guys arent expected to outnumber 5. the 3-4 provides more coverage and blitz possibilities. they know that 4 th player is comming but where from? and those 3 are expected to hold up blockers long enough to allow the lbs to pursue unhindered. theyre not expected to domminate anyone and you shouldnt assume they will.

and your 1 jewel of knowledge to pass on to capers was "keep the offense on the field longer then 3 downs" ?

brilliant

stop sobbing over spilled milk.


it's a vicious cycle.

have you tried medication?

SESupergenius
09-09-2005, 11:04 AM
In response to Powda:

The 3-4 as I have seen it in Houston (and as the stats speak) is not working. How in the world can three guys be expected to be outnumbered against AT LEAST five offensive lineman all game long? And then teams through a big FB or a big TE into the mix...sheesh!
I just watched the Raiders 4-3 get torched by the Patriots. They don't run the 3-4 anymore and switched to the 4-3, why are they not better??? HMM maybe it's because of the personnel they have? Hmmm I might be on to something here.