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MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Is anyone worried about David Carr's performance after the cowgirls game, two picks again. either he looks really good one week or really bad, I hope this is not sign of things to come of David Carr, the News talks more about David's Hair than his ability to play the game. On the other hand David's other 2002 draft partner did not fair so well this week Joey Harrington. Please someone tell me he is going to be great and not a first round dropout like Tim Couch of the Cleveland Browns 1999 1st draft. I hope and pray that he is our franchise QB like Peyton is to the Colts. :texflag:

Corrosion
08-31-2005, 11:58 AM
Joey Harrington took a beating aganist the Rams , Their O-line had a HORRIBLE game . Its real hard to look good as a QB when you spend that much time picking yourself up off the turf or running for your life . We should all know that from watching Carr the past three seasons . :bomb:
As for Carr .... He will be fine as long as he gets time to throw . Only one int was the result of a poor decision the other should be chalked up to the reciever . (Matt Murphy) :texflag:

evil_scotsman
08-31-2005, 11:59 AM
He's 10 times what Harrington is. Harringtons main problem is he lets critism get to him, all Carr needs is not to get sacked.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-31-2005, 12:00 PM
I hope he will be ok, like you said I know if they ever cut him my oldest daughter would be in tears. She loves Her David Carr, pretty bad my six year old hates seeing him run for his life on gameday.

rafterticket
08-31-2005, 12:14 PM
I hope he will be ok, like you said I know if they ever cut him my oldest daughter would be in tears. She loves Her David Carr, pretty bad my six year old hates seeing him run for his life on gameday.

That's great a six year old knows trouble on the football field. They don't cut #1 overall picks. Ever.

They just don't always protect them......

Corrosion
08-31-2005, 12:16 PM
That's great a six year old knows trouble on the football field. They don't cut #1 overall picks. Ever.

They just don't always protect them......

They may not protect them but they sure do cut them .... see Tim Couch :cool:

Blake
08-31-2005, 12:17 PM
Is anyone worried about David Carr's performance after the cowgirls game, two picks again. either he looks really good one week or really bad, I hope this is not sign of things to come of David Carr, the News talks more about David's Hair than his ability to play the game. On the other hand David's other 2002 draft partner did not fair so well this week Joey Harrington. Please someone tell me he is going to be great and not a first round dropout like Tim Couch of the Cleveland Browns 1999 1st draft. I hope and pray that he is our franchise QB like Peyton is to the Colts. :texflag:

Carr will not be Couch. He will not be Peyton either. He will be David Carr. Capers said he is not worried. He saw, as we did, that they were just out of synch, and off with their timing. We saw them drive down the field with ease in game 1 and 2.

Huge
08-31-2005, 12:20 PM
I think he'll be okay. But I was just looking at his pre-season stats and they are quite alarming...

14 of 29 (48.3%), 110 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 40.9 rating

What's bad is that he's only been sacked once. And as it was pointed out by dalemurphy in another thread, that sack came when he was scrambling and got tackled just before the LOS. 'Course, sacks aren't the only measure of the pressure a QB is facing.

His 48.3% completion percentage wouldn't be as bad if he were pressured a lot and was throwing the ball downfield often. But his average per attempt is only 3.8 (for those wondering...that's really, really, short).

I only saw him in the Cowboys game so I don't know how he looked in the other games. But it's always hard to tell how well/bad a player will do based on pre-season. He'll find his groove after playing often enough. Hard to get any kind of rythym going when you're only playing 2 qtrs a week.

I don't think you're going to have to worry about him becoming another Tim Couch. But I also don't hope you're waiting on him to become another Peyton Manning.

infantrycak
08-31-2005, 12:31 PM
14 of 29 (48.3%), 110 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 40.9 rating

His 48.3% completion percentage wouldn't be as bad if he were pressured a lot and was throwing the ball downfield often. But his average per attempt is only 3.8 (for those wondering...that's really, really, short).

Not you Huge, but folks in general need to settle down a little. Of the 29 attempts at least 4 to arguably 6 were drops by WR's or TE's plus 1 INT was either no one's fault (good play by Nguyen) or the TE's fault--the other INT was a horrible choice by Carr. The pre-season gives such a small sample that little things can really skew the results. For instance give Carr the 4 drops and he is at 62% completion with 6 he is at 69%--either way, very respectable. His QB rating is similarly skewed.

thegr8fan
08-31-2005, 12:35 PM
Carr will be exactly what he is, a mediocre, average, starting NFL QB. He won't ever be a Payton Manning. He also won't be a Tim Couch. What he will be is 'servicable'. He will do alright with Caper's style of playing Defensive football and not allowing turnovers. He won't ever be a Payton Manning, take winning the game on my shoulders, type of QB. He just doesn't have the skills for that.

rafterticket
08-31-2005, 12:42 PM
They may not protect them but they sure do cut them .... see Tim Couch :cool:

Poor Tim. He was such a bust I forgot about him. I stand corrected.

But David Carr sure isn't Tim Couch. He's not Peyton, but he is closer to that end of the grade curve.

Vinny
08-31-2005, 01:04 PM
Poor Tim. He was such a bust I forgot about him. I stand corrected.

But David Carr sure isn't Tim Couch. He's not Peyton, but he is closer to that end of the grade curve.Statistically, Carr and Couch are pretty close their first three years. They both started for expansion teams with bad lines.

Tim Couch 39 Td's in his first 3 years. David Carr 34

Tim Couch 188 yards per game started his first 3 years. David Carr 189 yards per game started.

Tim Couch 75 lifetime passer rating. David Carr 72.5

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133260

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268

nunusguy
08-31-2005, 01:04 PM
Yea, I expect Capers is gonna let him go with the rest of the players in the
Texans' second cut this week because of his performance in Irving this past Satirday night. His NFL career is definitely on the downside and sinking fast.
DC may soon end up being a used car saleman just to make ends meet financialy.
C'mon, it was a meaningless exhibition game that had nothing to do with anything, can't you comprehend that ? Just be a little patient until a week from Sunday in Buffalo, then it starts to happen for real.

swisher
08-31-2005, 01:09 PM
The second interception was a bobbled catch that should have been caught...an otherwise great throw. The first was just a great play by Williams. Carr said after the game he would throw that ball again the same way if given a chance. If you look at the replay Johnson got caught on his back foot. If he had been coming back towards the ball he would have beat Williams to it.

thegr8fan
08-31-2005, 01:21 PM
Carr said after the game he would throw that ball again the same way if given a chance. and in that statement lies the best example of why Carr will never be a Payton Manning. Some QB's learn from their mistakes, Carr doesn't. That was a horrendous pass that should have NEVER been thrown and it wasn't some kind of great play Williams. Bad decision, that judging from Carr's reported statement, that Carr still doesn't understand.

Porky
08-31-2005, 01:25 PM
Carr will be exactly what he is, a mediocre, average, starting NFL QB. He won't ever be a Payton Manning. He also won't be a Tim Couch. What he will be is 'servicable'. He will do alright with Caper's style of playing Defensive football and not allowing turnovers. He won't ever be a Payton Manning, take winning the game on my shoulders, type of QB. He just doesn't have the skills for that.

The skills or the mental makeup? I don't disagree, but he wasn't drafted #1 overall because of a lack of skills.

thegr8fan
08-31-2005, 01:32 PM
oh Carr has all the Physical skills anyone could ask for, and they made him a #1 pick. But the boy is a slow learner, IMHO. His ability to make quick judgements or decisions is non-existant. And don't even get me started on his ability to adapt/adjust the play once in motion. So I guess a more accurate statement would be the 'mental ability', Porky.

Carr will be in his 4th season and he just doesn't seem to 'git it'. His audibles at the line usually turn out to be horrendous plays that go no where, or worse, lose yardage.

People can bust on Chris Palmer and his play calling, but you gotta ask yourself also, how much of the playbook does Chris Palmer think that David Carr can actually execute. It is one of those 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' questions.

I'm guessing that Chris Palmer is 'salivating at the mouth' to bust open the playbook, but he just doesn't have the leadership on the field to allow it.

WWJD
08-31-2005, 01:49 PM
I don't know but maybe if I had a 320 pound guy chasing me full speed I might make a bad throw every now and then.

He's like every other QB in the league. Give him time to throw and he'll find those open receivers. Flush him out of the pocket and he's on his own. Running for his life or making poor throws.

ledzeppelin229
08-31-2005, 02:06 PM
I think Couch, if his elbow can get healthy, might make a little bit of a resurgence with a team that has a good running game. Couch's primary problem was his td/int ratio but I don't think his career is done.

The Preacher
08-31-2005, 02:09 PM
DC is just starting to scratch the surface of his talent and success level. Three years running around the way he has for a team just getting off the ground will lay the framework for what I believe should be a great career barring injury. To judge him on what he has done so far seems highly premature since most qb's struggle their first few years in the league (Troy aikman and Peyton Manning ring a bell). I'm not saying he'll necessarily succeed the way they have but you get the point. Same with the Texans in general you don't put together a playoff team overnight with some fa's and mostly league newcomers. The fun is just getting started hold on for what is about to be an incredible ride!! :highfive:

Porky
08-31-2005, 02:13 PM
DC is just starting to scratch the surface of his talent and success level. Three years running around the way he has for a team just getting off the ground will lay the framework for what I believe should be a great career barring injury. To judge him on what he has done so far seems highly premature since most qb's struggle their first few years in the league (Troy aikman and Peyton Manning ring a bell). I'm not saying he'll necessarily succeed the way they have but you get the point. Same with the Texans in general you don't put together a playoff team overnight with some fa's and mostly league newcomers. The fun is just getting started hold on for what is about to be an incredible ride!! :highfive:

Umm, you might want to rethink the comparison to Peyton Manning. :rolleyes:

TexanAggie
08-31-2005, 02:21 PM
did anyone notice the time Carr had though!! maybe he isnt used to all the time he had to throw and thus threw him off alot

WWJD
08-31-2005, 02:43 PM
I can only add this about David.

As a Cowboys fan I'd be turning cartwheels if the Cowboys had a guy like him as QB. And maybe I could get Bill to do some too!

Be thankful for David!

dalemurphy
08-31-2005, 09:39 PM
Look at the important Qb statistics. Compare Carr's 3rd season with any of the top QBs in the NFL and he compares very favorably. Here are some stats that tell the story:

yards per attempt: David Carr 7.6
Int per attempt: David Carr 0.03


All other statistics have built-in fallacies. For instance, someone in the west coast system should have a higher comp % than someone who throws the ball downfield a lot. Also, some teams prefer to throw the ball inside the 5 yard line, so that boosts the QBs TD numbers a great deal. McNabb's statistics are a great example of that.

Anyway, if you compare Carr's 3rd season with Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Mike Vick, Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Chad Pennington, Dante Culpepper, Bret Favre, Tom Brady, in their 3rd season..

Carr (7.6)ranks 2nd behind Peyton Manning (7.7)in Y/att. Nobody else is even close to those two.

Carr ranks 4th in fewest INT/att:
1. Brady
2. McNabb
3. Manning

So, among the top Qbs in today's NFL, when Carr went back to pass he was more successful than any of those QBs except for Peyton Manning, and, at the same time, was in the top half of that group in taking care of the ball... When you factor in that Manning, Brady, Culpepper, McNabb all had a much stronger supporting cast- I think it indicates that he is at least on an excellent developmental track.

rudy
08-31-2005, 09:46 PM
this cat is gonna get better because he is always getting real close to giving the pat's the L. plus manning is a replica of marino, whoa that cat doesnt have a ring does he? vince lombardi gave carr to the city of houston. by the way he sits on the left hand side to the man above.

ArlingtonTexan
08-31-2005, 09:51 PM
Look at the important Qb statistics. Compare Carr's 3rd season with any of the top QBs in the NFL and he compares very favorably. Here are some stats that tell the story:

yards per attempt: David Carr 7.6
Int per attempt: David Carr 0.03


All other statistics have built-in fallacies. For instance, someone in the west coast system should have a higher comp % than someone who throws the ball downfield a lot. Also, some teams prefer to throw the ball inside the 5 yard line, so that boosts the QBs TD numbers a great deal. McNabb's statistics are a great example of that.

Anyway, if you compare Carr's 3rd season with Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Mike Vick, Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Chad Pennington, Dante Culpepper, Bret Favre, Tom Brady, in their 3rd season..

Carr (7.6)ranks 2nd behind Peyton Manning (7.7)in Y/att. Nobody else is even close to those two.

Carr ranks 4th in fewest INT/att:
1. Brady
2. McNabb
3. Manning

So, among the top Qbs in today's NFL, when Carr went back to pass he was more successful than any of those QBs except for Peyton Manning, and, at the same time, was in the top half of that group in taking care of the ball... When you factor in that Manning, Brady, Culpepper, McNabb all had a much stronger supporting cast- I think it indicates that he is at least on an excellent developmental track.

Okay, I understand being a fan, but the statement "when Carr went back to pass he was more successful than any of those Qbs except for Peyton Manning" causes you to lose any credibility. I don't care how you and KC Joyner attempt to manipulate stats and randomly decside that these stats matter, but these don't, you can't make Carr into a top 5 QB in the league. Put down the calculator and the pen, and watch the football game.

Lucky
08-31-2005, 11:06 PM
Couldn't get in touch with Chicken Little, but Foghorn Leghorn called with a critique of David Carr's performance:


David Carr, I say that David Carr is not a QB. No, no, no, he's doing it all wrong. It's all mental, son, mental. That kid's about as sharp as a bowling ball. Just look, I say just look at the boy calling audibles. I don't think this kid's got all his marbles. Shakes his head when he means yes and nods when he means no. Carr, I say Carr running this offense causes more confusion than a mouse at a burlesque show. And dalemurphy, are ya listening boy? Two nuthins is nuthin. That's mathematics son. You can argue with me but you can't argue with figures. Two half nuthins is a whole nuthin. Ol' Charley & Dom try to tell me he's a franchise, I say franchise QB. That's a joke, son. Now go away Carr, you're bothering me.

There you have it from one of the gr8 football analysts Chicken Tech ever produced. Who could argue with that logic? Maybe Carr & the coaches are having a poor preseason. But at least the Chicken Littles & Foghorn Leghorns have this board in mid-season form. That's a funny, boy.

infantrycak
08-31-2005, 11:22 PM
Regardless of which side of the debate your on, that's funny right there.

Kaiser Toro
08-31-2005, 11:40 PM
The thread is about Carr and I have never been a fan since we drafted him. What I would not give to go back in a time machine with Cass and not select Boselli (yes I hoped it would work at the time) and most importantly take the freak named Julius Peppers who helped his team on the path to a Super Bowl.

I am an optimistic Texans fans through and through and give Cass a positive grade over the years, but I cannot help to believe that if Cass went in a different direction with these two selections we would be dancing.

Just imagine Peppers on our defense and a Dilfer-esque QB to go with the other terrific picks we have made. Hindsight is 20-20 and stinks. Note to self, when you become a GM and you have the opportunity of selecting a good Qb or a top notch freak defensive player, go with the D. :)

Humbly venting because it feels better than watcing all of the horrible news on the coast. Please give to a reputable charity if you have the means for the folks on the coast.

I am off the soab box, go Texans! :texflag:

SESupergenius
08-31-2005, 11:42 PM
I think that Carr is a better than average QB, but he is not in the class of Manning, Brady or McNabb. One stat, the QB Rating, is the measuring stick for QB's has Carr rated at 16th in the league. I agree with that. He throws as many TD's as Int's so far in his early career. He is on his upside however so I don't understand why people are down on him. Not all QB's are the same, some take longer and starting with an expansion team that has a huge revolving door, i'd give him a little more time to develope. Statistically he is on the rise.

AlexVanderpool
09-01-2005, 12:34 AM
- crappy offensive line.
- conservative offense.

if peyton manning played for us, he would not have developed into the offensive play calling juggernaut that he is. he would have fared a little better than heath shuler. carr may not be as talented as manning, but i dont think that he is just a servicable QB. carr has obviously developed a gun shy attitude, but who can blame him? our coaches sign OLs that are good run blockers but not good pass blockers. (wade, mckinney, wiegert, riley, etc.) the only reason that ware started last year was because he was a massive run blocker.

"we want to put the 5 most talented OL on the field at the same time"

im not a football coach, but IMO, an OL should be comprised of the most cohesive unit (see denver's ol in the 90's amongst others)

to trully guage carr, we have to put a winning team around him and then judge him, not bury him after a preseason game.

this is just a humble opinion of a die hard texans fan, go ahead and flame you myopians...

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 01:12 AM
Didnt Vick go as far as to say he came out early so as NOT to be drafted in Carr's place by the Texans ? :tomato:

Anyhow , I agree with the others here who say Carr is on the upside .... Its quite unfair for us to compare his career with any of the other listed QB's . Each and every one save Couch came to a team with an established O-line and recievers . Carr had NODDA to work with year one , the 79 sacks should tell be an indication . They still won 4 games and Carr played every snap . Year two he gets AJ and DD but still has a garbage O-line. Year three they were no better at protecting him and still had no second threat at reciever .... You are comparing apples and oranges . :texflag:

ATX
09-01-2005, 01:57 AM
Statistically, Carr and Couch are pretty close their first three years. They both started for expansion teams with bad lines.

Tim Couch 39 Td's in his first 3 years. David Carr 34

Tim Couch 188 yards per game started his first 3 years. David Carr 189 yards per game started.

Tim Couch 75 lifetime passer rating. David Carr 72.5

That's true to some extent, but Carr has been progressing alot better than Couch ever did.

QB Ratings:
Carr: 62.8, 69.5, 83.5
Couch:73.2, 77.3, 73.1, 76.8, 77.6

Carr has gone up 20.7, while Couch never went past 4.4 points, and hovered in the 70's for 5 straight years.

Completion %

Carr: 52.5, 56.3, 61.2
Couch:55.9, 63.7, 59.9, 61.6, 59.1

Carr Progressed every year up 8.7 % points, while Couch was inconsistent, never really progressed.

Couch threw 43 Interceptions in 38 games while Carr has thrown 42 Interceptions in 44 games. Carr throws less interceptions.

Carr's 1st year he threw 15 interceptions and threw 14 his 3rd year, Couch threw 13 Interceptions in 14 games in his 1st year while throwing 21 Interceptions his 3rd year. Couch has been inconsistent, while Carr has atleast shown some improvement by year 3.

ROYDESTROY
09-01-2005, 03:09 AM
Is anyone worried about David Carr's performance after the cowgirls game, two picks again. either he looks really good one week or really bad, I hope this is not sign of things to come of David Carr, the News talks more about David's Hair than his ability to play the game. On the other hand David's other 2002 draft partner did not fair so well this week Joey Harrington. Please someone tell me he is going to be great and not a first round dropout like Tim Couch of the Cleveland Browns 1999 1st draft. I hope and pray that he is our franchise QB like Peyton is to the Colts. :texflag:

Honestly, David is running out of time before he will be considered a bust. He has the receivers for the most part and a running game this year may define his future to be sure. Dallas did pressure Carr but not enough for all the mental errors and poor passes in the game.

If you take off your :homer: glasses you have to ask this question because it is both fair and realistic IMO.

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 03:40 AM
Honestly, David is running out of time before he will be considered a bust. He has the receivers for the most part and a running game this year may define his future to be sure. Dallas did pressure Carr but not enough for all the mental errors and poor passes in the game.

If you take off your :homer: glasses you have to ask this question because it is both fair and realistic IMO.


Im probably as far from a :homer: as you can get on this board , Im highly critical of many of the players and personel decisions . BUT its impossible to guage Carr at this point .
He's had AJ and the rejects for the past two seasons ....just a buncha rejects the first season . And he's NEVER had a decent O-line . He's done as well or better with less than many of the QB's everyone compares him to and these comparisons are totally un-fair . These players came into established teams with for the most part proven NFL players around them . Ive said it before Ill say it again , Its apples and oranges . You just cant compare the two .
This season they are changing their whole offensive philosophy to try and protect him better . There will be an extensive transition period . Come mid-season I expect most of these questions to be put to rest .... pending the continued good play from the O-line .
I dont see this season as being make or break for him . It is important that he continues to show progress , but make or break its not .

ROYDESTROY
09-01-2005, 03:53 AM
Im probably as far from a :homer: as you can get on this board , Im highly critical of many of the players and personel decisions . BUT its impossible to guage Carr at this point .
He's had AJ and the rejects for the past two seasons ....just a buncha rejects the first season . And he's NEVER had a decent O-line . He's done as well or better with less than many of the QB's everyone compares him to and these comparisons are totally un-fair . These players came into established teams with for the most part proven NFL players around them . Ive said it before Ill say it again , Its apples and oranges . You just cant compare the two .
This season they are changing their whole offensive philosophy to try and protect him better . There will be an extensive transition period . Come mid-season I expect most of these questions to be put to rest .... pending the continued good play from the O-line .
I dont see this season as being make or break for him . It is important that he continues to show progress , but make or break its not .



I understand supporting cast does matter, however, to what extent and how many years can you actually wait for perfect circumstances? How many years of progress does a starting first round caliber QB need to show that he can guide this team to even the play-offs?

David has to demonstrate that he can get it done this year or he may not have much longer at the helm IMO. The third year is usually the time a draft pick needs to show something..this needs to be his year if Houston is wise.

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 04:24 AM
I understand supporting cast does matter, however, to what extent and how many years can you actually wait for perfect circumstances? How many years of progress does a starting first round caliber QB need to show that he can guide this team to even the play-offs?

David has to demonstrate that he can get it done this year or he may not have much longer at the helm IMO. The third year is usually the time a draft pick needs to show something..this needs to be his year if Houston is wise.


If we werent discussing an expansion team I MAY agree. But consider that aside from AJ neither of the recievers the Texans have started the past 3 seasons would start on ANY other NFL team . Bradford was the 4th reciever in Green Bay .... Gaffeny was a rookie . The running game kept no one honest .
Two of those three seasons the Texans lead the league in sacks . And at tis juncture they are at least 3 players away from being TRUE contenders I just cant come to the belief that Carr is on a short leash nor should he be .

Put any of the other QB's in the NFL in his position and most if not all would have worse stats much less won / loss records.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 07:27 AM
I think that Carr is a better than average QB, but he is not in the class of Manning, Brady or McNabb. One stat, the QB Rating, is the measuring stick for QB's has Carr rated at 16th in the league. I agree with that. He throws as many TD's as Int's so far in his early career. He is on his upside however so I don't understand why people are down on him. Not all QB's are the same, some take longer and starting with an expansion team that has a huge revolving door, i'd give him a little more time to develope. Statistically he is on the rise.

If QB rating is an accurate measuring stick then Neil Lomax, Brad Johnson, Randal Cunningham, Mark Brunell, Jake Delhomme are all better QBs than Troy Aikman. QB rating places too much emphasis on TD passes. TD passes have more to do with the system you play in than with the success/ability of the QB...

Oh Yeah, and Jeff Garcia would be a top 5 all-time QB.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 07:40 AM
Okay, I understand being a fan, but the statement "when Carr went back to pass he was more successful than any of those Qbs except for Peyton Manning" causes you to lose any credibility. I don't care how you and KC Joyner attempt to manipulate stats and randomly decside that these stats matter, but these don't, you can't make Carr into a top 5 QB in the league. Put down the calculator and the pen, and watch the football game.


First of all, this has nothing to do with KC Joyner. Second, I'm comparing Carr's third season with each of these other QBs third seasons. Of Course Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are better Qbs now, but I'm arguing that Carr is on a similar developmental path as the NFL's elite QBs took.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
09-01-2005, 08:18 AM
Let's Not Forget The Bottom Line As Well Carr Only Had One Break Out Season At Fresno, Face It Most Of Us Never Even Heard About Carr Until He Was Drafted. I Guess Only Time Will Tell, With Him I Hope He Is Truely A Diamond In The Ruff, And Leads Our Team To The Playoff's In The Near Future.

ArlingtonTexan
09-01-2005, 08:52 AM
First of all, this has nothing to do with KC Joyner. Second, I'm comparing Carr's third season with each of these other QBs third seasons. Of Course Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are better Qbs now, but I'm arguing that Carr is on a similar developmental path as the NFL's elite QBs took.

You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr is a good Qb and starting quality. Is there a chance that he could become an elite? Of course. A great chance? I don't think so. Elite Qbs are able to put a flawed team on thier back and win anyway. Has Carr shown me the ability to that regularly? No. Do I hope that I am wrong and he turns out to be a Top 5 Qb? Yes. I am Texans fan.

touttail
09-01-2005, 10:21 AM
Look at Drew Brees season before last. He stunk!!!!!!!!
Last season, he had a great year thanks to Gates. A good tight end would make some difference. Ours either drop the ball or stay injured, ie Joppru.

Bobby 119C

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 10:46 AM
You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr is a good Qb and starting quality. Is there a chance that he could become an elite? Of course. A great chance? I don't think so. Elite Qbs are able to put a flawed team on thier back and win anyway. Has Carr shown me the ability to that regularly? No. Do I hope that I am wrong and he turns out to be a Top 5 Qb? Yes. I am Texans fan.


First, the two stats I'm looking at best incapsulate what QBs do:
1. Yards per attempt- this indicates accuracy, but unlike comp%, also factors in deep balls and intermediate routes. What stat is better at communicating a Qb's efficiency then showing what the average gain is every time he throws a pass.

2. Int. per attempt- Obviously, everyone but Mike Martz wants someone who takes care of the ball. So, a numerical description of how often the Qb throws an interception is a great indicator as well.

If the measurement of a great Qb is his ability to carry a flawed team on their back then Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana must not be great QBs... because they've not done that either.

Nobody is arguing that Carr is the next Elway. Once again my point is that he is progressing in his learning curve similarly to the other great modern quarterbacks. So, criticisms about his lack of development are unwarranted.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 10:49 AM
You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck.


Well, I think Hasselbeck is a very good Qb. As far as ABrooks, his interception to attempt ratio is quite a bit higher than Carr's third season. Also, both qbs average less Y/attempt.

ArlingtonTexan
09-01-2005, 12:45 PM
First, the two stats I'm looking at best incapsulate what QBs do:
1. Yards per attempt- this indicates accuracy, but unlike comp%, also factors in deep balls and intermediate routes. What stat is better at communicating a Qb's efficiency then showing what the average gain is every time he throws a pass.

2. Int. per attempt- Obviously, everyone but Mike Martz wants someone who takes care of the ball. So, a numerical description of how often the Qb throws an interception is a great indicator as well.

If the measurement of a great Qb is his ability to carry a flawed team on their back then Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana must not be great QBs... because they've not done that either.

Nobody is arguing that Carr is the next Elway. Once again my point is that he is progressing in his learning curve similarly to the other great modern quarterbacks. So, criticisms about his lack of development are unwarranted.

We are going in circles and nothing new is being gained. Pretty much you defending two sets of stats as the most important and I am just watching him play. Both are subjective acts. I would like to tract this comparison going forward this year, but I have a question or two. What do these elite guys do in the fourth year in these categories? Is it another leap forward or do they maintain the level of performance?

TexanFanInCC
09-01-2005, 01:06 PM
Joey Harrington took a beating aganist the Rams , Their O-line had a HORRIBLE game . Its real hard to look good as a QB when you spend that much time picking yourself up off the turf or running for your life . We should all know that from watching Carr the past three seasons . :bomb:
As for Carr .... He will be fine as long as he gets time to throw . Only one int was the result of a poor decision the other should be chalked up to the reciever . (Matt Murphy) :texflag:

the sad thing is, david carr did have time to throw the ball. the line did a decent job. there was too much miscommunication on routes and poorly thrown balls by david carr. i was pleased with the running game against dallas. the blocking was superb. we all gotta remember that the texans arent running the same style of offense as last year. this year we are running a more timing-based passing attack that will show more quick slants and quick screens. the key is that the recievers run their routes precisely so that the QB can be able to hit his target at a precise moment. this is supposed to cut sacks down, however i think this offense is not utilizing the potential of our recievers well. we need to take advantage of andres and jerome's speed and use a more vertical passing game, but the protection may not allow that to happen.

SESupergenius
09-01-2005, 01:59 PM
If QB rating is an accurate measuring stick then Neil Lomax, Brad Johnson, Randal Cunningham, Mark Brunell, Jake Delhomme are all better QBs than Troy Aikman. QB rating places too much emphasis on TD passes. TD passes have more to do with the system you play in than with the success/ability of the QB...

Oh Yeah, and Jeff Garcia would be a top 5 all-time QB.
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB. I think not, because this a team game and defense has a lot to do with it don't ya think? The QB passer Rating is still a very good measuring stick on a QB no matter how you try to spin it. Go look at last years QB ratings and tell me what QB that has better QB rating than is not better than him. I would not consider Aikman in the class of hall of famers that have rings...Montana, Young, Elway etc, but more in the class of Bradshaw and Theisman, average QB's with great defenses.

Let's test out your guage on QB's:

What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Yards per attempt?
What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Int. per attempt?

I'd like to see these lists.





Aikman had a better QB rating throughout his career than Cunningham, so you missed on that one.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 02:13 PM
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB. I think not, because this a team game and defense has a lot to do with it don't ya think? The QB passer Rating is still a very good measuring stick on a QB no matter how you try to spin it. Go look at last years QB ratings and tell me what QB that has better QB rating than is not better than him. I would not consider Aikman in the class of hall of famers that have rings...Montana, Young, Elway etc, but more in the class of Bradshaw and Theisman, average QB's with great defenses.

Let's test out your guage on QB's:

What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Yards per attempt?
What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Int. per attempt?

I'd like to see these lists.





Aikman had a better QB rating throughout his career than Cunningham, so you missed on that one. ... according to my source, Cunningham was about .2% higher.


Most agree that Aikman was a great QB because most saw him play. He was deadly accurate and executed flawlessly in his prime. I compare Carr to him because they are asked to do similar things in their offenses. Carr, like Aikman, likely will never have an opportunity to throw 30tds. Either of them could accomplish that on the St. Louis Rams. However, what they will be asked to do is to make plays during the game, collect critical first downs and command the respect of the opposing defense. Players like Marino, Montana, KWarner, PManning have made the most of an opportunity to be great that most QBs never have.

QBs like Carr and Aikman are/were not in systems that would allow that level of success from the QB spot. Criticizing Aikman's TD/Int ratio is amateurish. Would you have more respect for him if he audibled out of runs to Emmitt Smith on first and goal in order to play-action pass to Novacek in order to pad his stats? In Dallas, TDs went to the running game- not because of Aikman's inabilities but because that wast the nature of the offense and Emmitt was likely the greatest short yardage back of all-time.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 02:16 PM
well of these QBs in their third years:

PManning
Brady
McNair
McNabb
Vick
TGreen
CPennington
BFavre
Culpepper


only Manning had a higher Y/att... Manning 7.7, Carr 7.6

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 02:42 PM
the sad thing is, david carr did have time to throw the ball. the line did a decent job. there was too much miscommunication on routes and poorly thrown balls by david carr. i was pleased with the running game against dallas. the blocking was superb. we all gotta remember that the texans arent running the same style of offense as last year. this year we are running a more timing-based passing attack that will show more quick slants and quick screens. the key is that the recievers run their routes precisely so that the QB can be able to hit his target at a precise moment. this is supposed to cut sacks down, however i think this offense is not utilizing the potential of our recievers well. we need to take advantage of andres and jerome's speed and use a more vertical passing game, but the protection may not allow that to happen.

Agree'd . The O-line did a much better job VS. Dallas .... Im quite pleasantly surprised by this . The running game was very good ..... Yet the offense was not firing on all cylinders to say the least . Several dropped balls , some mis-communication , a few busted route's and poorly thrown balls .
As you stated they have changed their offense quite dramaticly .... There will be a transition period ..... How long will it take . Who knows , but i expect by mid-season they will shut us up .... pending the continued good play from the O-line. Could be sooner , could be later but it will happen .

As for taking advantage of the strengths of the recievers .... they have to keep Carr on his feet to do so . The solid running game should help tremendously . Making play action much more effective , which in turn should open up the middle of the field .
As for Mathis , I dont see him being on the field a whole lot this season barring injury (other than special teams). Although he will probably be in on 4 wide sets . A lot of people are of the opinion that he is the savior of the passing game .... I just dont think he's ready , speed isnt everything .
The 1991 Hiesman winner Desmond Howard was fast too .... what did he ever do in the NFL ? :confused:

infantrycak
09-01-2005, 02:58 PM
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB.

On a little side note here--greatness can be defined in different ways. Like AT says, he looks at it and sees it rather than relies on the stats as much. One thing which was obvious about Aikman was his game massively elevated once he was in the post-season. When opposing D's were greater, when O's were sticking up points, Aikman would perform virtually flawlessly. He had some otherworldly streak of quarters of post-season play without an INT at one point. Playing your greatest when it counts the most is a measuring stick of greatness IMO.

On the flip side, although this is overstated to a degree, look at Manning. I don't give two flips if you have 150 TD's in the regular season if you can't figure out a way to win playoff games except against Denver.

dalemurphy
09-01-2005, 03:08 PM
We are going in circles and nothing new is being gained. Pretty much you defending two sets of stats as the most important and I am just watching him play. Both are subjective acts. I would like to tract this comparison going forward this year, but I have a question or two. What do these elite guys do in the fourth year in these categories? Is it another leap forward or do they maintain the level of performance?

expect another significant leap forward... at least that is my contention and it is what history dictates should happen.

Diehardtexan
09-01-2005, 03:17 PM
Let's Not Forget The Bottom Line As Well Carr Only Had One Break Out Season At Fresno, Face It Most Of Us Never Even Heard About Carr Until He Was Drafted. I Guess Only Time Will Tell, With Him I Hope He Is Truely A Diamond In The Ruff, And Leads Our Team To The Playoff's In The Near Future.
Most QBs only have one break out year in college, no one heard of Carlson Palmer either until the year he got drafted. I think they are product of the system that they played in that hyped them up to be a top pick.

SESupergenius
09-01-2005, 04:06 PM
well of these QBs in their third years:

PManning
Brady
McNair
McNabb
Vick
TGreen
CPennington
BFavre
Culpepper


only Manning had a higher Y/att... Manning 7.7, Carr 7.6

So David Carr is better than all of those QB's? Wow. I can just say...wow. :pigfly:

ArlingtonTexan
09-01-2005, 04:22 PM
expect another significant leap forward... at least that is my contention and it is what history dictates should happen.

Okay, makes sense...here's hoping you're correct. :texflag:

Lucky
09-01-2005, 05:20 PM
... according to my source, Cunningham was about .2% higher.
Stats.com has Cunningham at 81.6, Aikman at 81.5.

WWJD
09-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Troy Aikman was a great QB.

His first few years were futile but once the team got built he was great.

Hey it's all about winning Super Bowl's. Troy was in 3 and won all three.

He was the most accurate post season QB ever I think.

As a Cowboy fan I wouldn't have traded Troy for anybody the years he played.

ROYDESTROY
09-01-2005, 06:53 PM
Troy Aikman was a great QB.

His first few years were futile but once the team got built he was great.

Hey it's all about winning Super Bowl's. Troy was in 3 and won all three.

He was the most accurate post season QB ever I think.

As a Cowboy fan I wouldn't have traded Troy for anybody the years he played.

Carr picked off again already...ouch :fishing:

Ihategeeks
09-01-2005, 08:06 PM
I see alot of harrington bashing in this thread.

91.9 is his QB rating for the past 3 games

I think Carr is about 13 for 4 of them

The both have the same amount of attempts.

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 08:41 PM
I cant and wont defend his play tonight .... it was HORRIBLE :penalty:

Ihategeeks
09-01-2005, 08:47 PM
I am not trying to start and Joey vs David spat.

Hell, I don't even take his miserable preseason seriously.

But come on, lets just leave Joey out of it, for your own sake.

Corrosion
09-01-2005, 11:15 PM
lets just leave Joey out of it, for your own sake.

Good idea

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927
09-02-2005, 12:23 AM
Carr ranks 4th in fewest INT/att:
1. Brady
2. McNabb
3. Manning



Harrington would be 3rd on this list with an INT/att of .0245, ahead of PM's .026 and right behind McNabb's .0243.

Cherry picking stats is fun!

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
09-02-2005, 12:58 AM
After watching David Carr tonight and listened to his remarks after the game it is like licking salt off an old wound. David and Charlie both sound like broken records every week, saying they need to excute better. well I wonder just how much more Bob Mcnair can watch this. It was like watching Nimitz High School Versus USC . At least Dave Ragone brought it to the table tonight, I do hope he is #2 in the rotation. I hope Carr and the rest of the Texans show up next week in Buffalo.

TexHorns
09-02-2005, 01:42 AM
My analysis: Over the last couple of weeks our first team offense has for the most part stunk it up. Surprise, it wasn't the Oline!

Carr needs to check off his recievers and I am not too sure about this three step drop timing thing? He seems to drop quick and throw without really looking at what he is throwing to. I know his WRs are suppossed to be in the right place and time when running the routes but nothing is developing? But I don't think that most of our problems are coming from Carr. I think that our wrs have not been doing their jobs. Is it just me or have there been way too many dropped balls? I always heard that if the ball touches your hands then it should be a catch 99 times out of 100. Bradford had some ridiculous drops and seemed lost on the field. Dre had one bounce off his shoulder pads and a few others go through and off his hands. I am not downing Dre I think he will recover his form from last year but those things can kill a teams mometum. Any other thoughts?

TexHorns
09-02-2005, 01:55 AM
After watching David Carr tonight and listened to his remarks after the game it is like licking salt off an old wound. David and Charlie both sound like broken records every week, saying they need to excute better. well I wonder just how much more Bob Mcnair can watch this. It was like watching Nimitz High School Versus USC . At least Dave Ragone brought it to the table tonight, I do hope he is #2 in the rotation. I hope Carr and the rest of the Texans show up next week in Buffalo.

Have you ever heard anything worth listen to from athlete's comments? It is like watching Sports Center or NFL Live where they just blabber about T.O. for half an hour. They rarely give any real insight. The fact is they are working to fix the problems they're just not telling us what they are doing. It's all for entertainment. The most your going to hear is 'we're gonna do better nex time' and 'we need to be more focused'. It's all garbage IMO. They all sound like that.

lucky13
09-02-2005, 05:06 AM
carr reminds me of a poor man's donovan mcnabb. mediocre in terms of pure throwing the ball, and needing some good receivers. and a good tight end.

elite wide receivers can be expensive. they can also be volatile. neither of these fits mcnair's under-the-cap "family values" ways very well.

the texans have yet to sign a truly premier FA, despite being way under the cap. it seems to be a business to mcnair. i think the only hope for the team to win a SB is for the fans in houston to demand more. i'm certainly not holding my breath.

Ihategeeks
09-02-2005, 06:09 AM
The Lions are built full of "good" family image guys just like your team.
Our owner refuses to get cheerlearders even!

And you know what happened a few days ago, we got blasted on the Radio by Chris Mortenson (mr. all knowning ESPN breaking news guy) He called the Lions soft, the coaches soft, he even called our excerise equipment soft.

He's right, the team is soft, we have no hardarses on the team. YOu need these people to win.

This isn't Disney, knock this mickey mouse bs off NFL, and get our team some MEAN KILLING MACHINES!!!


:challenge

infantrycak
09-02-2005, 08:34 AM
After watching David Carr tonight and listened to his remarks after the game it is like licking salt off an old wound. David and Charlie both sound like broken records every week, saying they need to excute better. well I wonder just how much more Bob Mcnair can watch this. It was like watching Nimitz High School Versus USC . At least Dave Ragone brought it to the table tonight, I do hope he is #2 in the rotation. I hope Carr and the rest of the Texans show up next week in Buffalo.

You watched that performance and the complaint you came up with was his post game comments? C'mon--think back to Bull Durham where they mocked player comments. There is plenty of room for real complaints, no need to just make them up.

Doug
09-02-2005, 08:57 AM
I would be curious to see how Ragone would fare with the first team offense.

Runner
09-02-2005, 09:03 AM
You watched that performance and the complaint you came up with was his post game comments?

Well, at least we've been spared body language interpretations on Carr so far.

It looks like the posters here have diversified their offense too - we usually don't see such vitriolic posts except against the offensive line. So here is what I expect to happen:

1) Place all team problems on Carr - OL example: our defense is looked bad because they are always tired because our O-line is bad.

2) Give Carr a catchy nickname - OL example: Steve push-me-back McKinney. Carr could be David what-color-are-we-wearing Carr

3) Demand Carr be cut as an example because of somebody's interpretation of his body language. OL example: "I can tell by the way Wand stands he has given up". Carr was shown smiling after his second interception, for crying out loud!

4) Demand to start an inferior player in his spot, to show the coaches listening to the fans. OL example: Riley (8 years in the league, on the downhill side) vs. Wand 3 year project (actually started in second year, don't let him make that 2nd to 3rd year jump).

And then after dumping on Carr for half a season, move on to 'Dre!


p.s. I think we've played poorly, and it worries me. However, I am absolutely not down on Carr, nor have I ever considered our O-line the root of all evil. I'm just pointing out that posters here can be rather excessive in their comments and evaluations.

Runner
09-02-2005, 09:05 AM
I would be curious to see how Ragone would fare with the first team offense.

Probably pretty well - he seemed very collected out there - sliding to open spots when he got under pressure and still making good throws. He seems to understand the offense and is on the same page with his receivers.

Honoring Earl 34
09-02-2005, 09:50 AM
:howdy: The scary thing with QBs is can they handle the speed of the game . The road is littered with high 1st round choices who did'nt pan out . The reasons were not arm strength , mobility , size or injury it was they just did'nt have it mentally .
Then you have the Tom Brady's or Joe Montana's of the world who you'd mistake for the punter . They're skinny guys with average arms but make the game look easy .
After the first year I thought Carr was a good prospect . In 2005 I'm not so sure . The best thing for Carr would be getting benched for Ragone . This would cut the apron strings and maybe we'll find out how he really ticks .
For you big time Carr supporters remember Terry Bradshaw was benched for Joe Gilliam , Aikman was benched for Steve Walsh , its a wake up call . It is said a hunting dog will either hunt or he won't . I believe its the same with QBs they either have IT or they don't .

the wonger need food
09-02-2005, 12:51 PM
You watched that performance and the complaint you came up with was his post game comments? C'mon--think back to Bull Durham where they mocked player comments. There is plenty of room for real complaints, no need to just make them up.

"We gotta play them one game at a time"

"I'm just happy to be here. Hope I can help the ball club"

"I just want to give it my best shot, and the good Lord willing, things will work out."

Exascor
09-02-2005, 01:58 PM
"We gotta play them one game at a time"

"I'm just happy to be here. Hope I can help the ball club"

"I just want to give it my best shot, and the good Lord willing, things will work out."Where have I heard those before? hehe

ArlingtonTexan
09-02-2005, 02:23 PM
Where have I heard those before? hehe

We don't understand how seemingly intelligent players can talk without saying anything.

Sincerely,

Jeff Bagwell & Craig Biggio

Cjeremy635
09-02-2005, 02:24 PM
I concur.."that dog won't hunt." There are some serious issues and us hoping that they get fixed is just some grand illusion. I had high hopes for the team this year, but when you see how the preseason ended it is quite discouraging as a fan. I honestly am tired of the "we just have to go out there and execute/perform better. I know we are capable of it, we just need to do it" comments. I would not have near as much leadway in my career. If I screwed up that bad at my job I would certainly be fired. Some serious things need to change, mainly the mentality and fire in this team. :penalty:

jr0ck
09-02-2005, 02:34 PM
If I screwed up that bad at my job I would certainly be fired.

since the equivalent for me is taking a test, as i am still a student, let me give you my metaphor. i've never failed a class because of a pre-test. period. if i do well, i feel a little better about myself and wish it would have counted. if i don't do so hot, i try and recognize my weaknesses and am thankful it wasn't a real test. nothing more and nothing less.

i see nothing in my line of thinking that doesn't apply to pre-season football, especially the fact that pre-test's give you no concrete bearing on your performance on the subsequent test that counts.