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utahmark
08-22-2005, 05:45 PM
there is a thead about banks at hpf.com. just wondering what you guys think about our back up qb situation. ragone has looked pretty good this preseason. im hoping that ragone takes the backup job. i think it would be good for the future of the team if we have our starter and backup set for the next 10 years.

Blake
08-22-2005, 06:14 PM
Banks is still the #2. He is a vet, who can stay calm and collected durring the game. Davey still has alot of work to do IMO. He is the king of the 2nd tier QB's though. ;)

swisher
08-22-2005, 06:40 PM
Banks always looks like he's going through the motions while Ragone is out their fighting...I know that has to do with their situation, but Banks has never impressed me in that way.

To be honest, every offseason I expected Banks to move on. I think he likes the non-pressure of a backup. I can't blame him, I would love his job!

the wonger need food
08-22-2005, 08:01 PM
This is one of the areas that the Texans have got to address. Make a note of the production other team's get from their backup QB's compared to the anemia that we call offense when Carr leaves the game. Bottom line is, Banks is a below average backup. We could have picked Kelly Holcombe or Mike McMahon in the offseason to mention a few. Heck, Vinny Testeverde would be a tremendous upgrade over Banks. I guess the front office would have a hard time getting Big Dave to sign off on that. We can't have him looking over his shoulder.

Texans86
08-22-2005, 08:05 PM
This is one of the areas that the Texans have got to address. Make a note of the production other team's get from their backup QB's compared to the anemia that we call offense when Carr leaves the game. Bottom line is, Banks is a below average backup. We could have picked Kelly Holcombe or Mike McMahon in the offseason to mention a few. Heck, Vinny Testeverde would be a tremendous upgrade over Banks. I guess the front office would have a hard time getting Big Dave to sign off on that. We can't have him looking over his shoulder.

I'm sure Carr would be shaking in his cleats that one of those guys would be taking his job. Carr has the confidence of everyone in the front office, even if he doesn't have it from some Texan fans.

Hervoyel
08-22-2005, 10:01 PM
Personally, I'd go ahead and make the move. Ragone as #2, Banks out the door, and I'd start looking around for another young guy to take the 3 spot. Ragone is ready to be the backup.

Grid
08-23-2005, 06:00 AM
Banks is our #2 guy. He looked bad against the Raiders.. but I blame that mostly on having Hollings as his RB. Ragone looked better.. and he had Morency.

Against the Broncos Banks looked better.. but he had Wells. Ragone looked worse.. and he had Hollings.


get rid of Hollings.

PapaL
08-23-2005, 06:53 AM
What has Ragone done to earn the #2 spot? OK he did great in NFLE, but come on, NFLE? I could see it next year if he has a solid preseason and a good regular season, but no this year.

infantrycak
08-23-2005, 07:30 AM
Banks is our #2 guy. He looked bad against the Raiders.. but I blame that mostly on having Hollings as his RB. Ragone looked better.. and he had Morency.

Against the Broncos Banks looked better.. but he had Wells. Ragone looked worse.. and he had Hollings.


get rid of Hollings.

Banks has been inaccurate in camp and pre-season the last two years no matter whether Hollings is standing behind him or not. Bit off-base IMO to blame Banks' propensity to throw passes at the feet of, over the head of, or two steps behind his WR's on the RB.

Grid
08-23-2005, 08:44 AM
im just going by what ive seen in the games Infantry.. havent seen em in practice. In game one against the broncos.. banks looked good.. but he had an effective running game going with Wells.

In game 2.. banks looked bad.. and Hollings wasnt able to do anything.



I just put 2 and 2 together.. sorry if its offbase.

texan279
08-23-2005, 08:56 AM
I have a feeling Banks is our #2 until the end of the season and Ragone will take the #2 spot next season.

beerlover
08-23-2005, 09:14 AM
I have a feeling Banks is our #2 until the end of the season and Ragone will take the #2 spot next season.

agreed.

if Ragone can provide confidence within this staff he will replace Banks, next year. the Texans will release Banks and use a mid level draft pick on a MAC QB named Darrell Hackney, Alabama-Birmingham :embarrass or another quality arm. Ragone strikes me as a competant career back-up, the Texans realize this & will need to groom a true NFL starting quality QB for the future.

infantrycak
08-23-2005, 10:44 AM
im just going by what ive seen in the games Infantry.. havent seen em in practice. In game one against the broncos.. banks looked good.. but he had an effective running game going with Wells.

In game 2.. banks looked bad.. and Hollings wasnt able to do anything.

I just put 2 and 2 together.. sorry if its offbase.

I guess I am just seeing a different Banks. Banks was 4 of 9 against the Broncos. Below 50% isn't pretty good in my book. To me he looks inaccurate. That is a problem which exists independent of whoever the RB out there is. Basically, it seems better to me to look to Banks' performance for problems with Banks' performance before going to look at the RB especially in the pre-season when they aren't game planning for specific RB's and aren't making too many defensive adjustments within a series.

Grid
08-23-2005, 11:54 AM
he was 4 of 9 against the broncs? wow.. ok you win heh. I remembered him looking better than that.. my mistake.


I still maintain that Hollings is useless though. I dont think it really matters if they are gameplanning around his abilities or not.. I saw him try and go inside..i saw him try and go outside.. and neither way was working. Morency made it work, Davis made it work, Wells made it work.. but Hollings couldnt do anything. I think the problem is hollings, not the way we use him.

M@DD Mike
08-23-2005, 12:15 PM
Yeah both Banks and Hollings are garbage. Get them outta here!

Hervoyel
08-23-2005, 12:27 PM
What has Ragone done to earn the #2 spot? OK he did great in NFLE, but come on, NFLE? I could see it next year if he has a solid preseason and a good regular season, but no this year.


What did Carr do to deserve the #1 spot? For that matter what did Brady do to deserve the #1 spot in New England? Sure both of them are better than Ragone but niether of them had two years to get ready and a season in NFLE.

Ragone is better than Banks IMO, hence I'd put him in the two spot. Banks is a veteran and unless he was interested in sticking around the rest of the year as the 3 I'd let him go look for a job he wanted in 2005. Come 2006 or if a kid I liked became available now I'd replace Banks with the youngster. The 3 spot is not where veterans go to die, it's where young QB's start out IMO.

z0rpAn
08-23-2005, 12:45 PM
you'd also have to consider that Banks would probably cost more with him at #3 with all his years than Ragone would be at #2.

Texans86
08-23-2005, 12:57 PM
agreed.

if Ragone can provide confidence within this staff he will replace Banks, next year. the Texans will release Banks and use a mid level draft pick on a MAC QB named Darrell Hackney, Alabama-Birmingham :embarrass or another quality arm. Ragone strikes me as a competant career back-up, the Texans realize this & will need to groom a true NFL starting quality QB for the future.

A quarterback of the future? Wow, our offensive line is killing us if we need to groom a quarterback of the future, when Carr is only entering his fourth season. I sure hope Carr has another season in him till we draft his replacement.

El Tejano
08-23-2005, 02:21 PM
I liked Ragone's leadership out there. On one frame I saw him rip into his offensive line and they started to move the ball alot better after that. To me that is what could make him the #2 guy but his experience for now will keep him on the pine.

Capster67
08-23-2005, 02:21 PM
The offense has consistently looked directionless with Banks (minus the one TD toss to Murphy). A quarterback can't expect a running back (see Hollings versus Wells remark above) to bring it for him. The QB has to bring it to the team. We need someone with some zip on the ball, energy, and enthusiasm. Banks doesn't appear to be that person; Ragone does.

Corrosion
08-23-2005, 02:42 PM
Watching Ragone last pre-season and again when both Carr and Banks were out .... he looked HORRIBLE .
This season he looks like a totally different player . The time spent in NFL-E has helped his confidence immensely .

There seems to be no drop off between him and Banks .... But there is One problem , Ragone is a lefty . Not only does this change things for the O-line but when he throws the ball it puts a reverse spin on the ball in comparison to a righty throwing it which could affect the recievers . These are my only real concerns if Ragone were to have to play for an extended time . :fishing:

infantrycak
08-23-2005, 03:13 PM
There seems to be no drop off between him and Banks .... But there is One problem , Ragone is a lefty . Not only does this change things for the O-line but when he throws the ball it puts a reverse spin on the ball in comparison to a righty throwing it which could affect the recievers . These are my only real concerns if Ragone were to have to play for an extended time . :fishing:

I'm not convinced the left-handed thing means as much as some people do, but if it does, it makes this stat comparison even worse:

Banks 9 comp. 21 atts 95 yds 42.9% comp 72.5 QB rating
Ragone 7 comp. 13 atts. 93 yds 53.8% comp 102.4 QB rating.

Now the sample is certainly too small to draw real conclusions. I don't distinctly remember Banks having accuracy problems prior to breaking his hand in the Atlanta game, but IMO he has looked miserable since coming back. Without accuracy, the veteran savy loses a lot of its benefit.

HardCoreTxn
08-23-2005, 06:22 PM
If Carr gets injured, we are screwed with eithier of these guys :goodnight

the wonger need food
08-23-2005, 06:38 PM
There seems to be no drop off between him and Banks .... But there is One problem , Ragone is a lefty . Not only does this change things for the O-line but when he throws the ball it puts a reverse spin on the ball in comparison to a righty throwing it which could affect the recievers . These are my only real concerns if Ragone were to have to play for an extended time . :fishing:

There is only one problem here??? There is no possible way to drop off lower than Banks. Being a lefty will have no effect on Ragone's future in the NFL. It will be little things like not being able to get the ball to a wide open receiver in the end zone... against 3rd stringers.

Jwwillis
08-23-2005, 06:52 PM
Banks is our #2 guy. He looked bad against the Raiders.. but I blame that mostly on having Hollings as his RB. Ragone looked better.. and he had Morency.

Against the Broncos Banks looked better.. but he had Wells. Ragone looked worse.. and he had Hollings.


get rid of Hollings.

Perhaps Banks and Hollings were suffering from the same problem. From what I saw the 0-line did a lousy job for both of them while they were in. Also, didn't we miss a red zone opportunity when Ragone threw the ball 10 feet over the recievers head on 3rd down? I've never been a fan of a lefty #2 QB when the #1 is right handed. The adjustments are hard enough when a #2 is forced into the game after an injury without having to deal with ( blind side opposite side of 0-line, opposite spin on the ball while in the air...etc. ).

Jwwillis
08-23-2005, 06:54 PM
If Carr gets injured, we are screwed with eithier of these guys :goodnight

Wasn't true last year.

Corrosion
08-23-2005, 09:22 PM
Being a lefty will have no effect on Ragone's future in the NFL. .


Im not saying it will affect his career the NFL , what i am saying is that it changes the dynamics of pass protection .... That can affect his production . Considering the O-line is the weakest area of the team ....

I've never been a fan of a lefty #2 QB when the #1 is right handed. The adjustments are hard enough when a #2 is forced into the game after an injury without having to deal with ( blind side opposite side of 0-line, opposite spin on the ball while in the air...etc. ).

You get the picture ....... :tv:

the wonger need food
08-23-2005, 09:36 PM
Im not saying it will affect his career the NFL , what i am saying is that it changes the dynamics of pass protection .... That can affect his production . Considering the O-line is the weakest area of the team ....

You get the picture ....... :tv:

Oh, you were stating the obvious. It sounded like these were you only concerns. With Ragone the list is a lot longer.

Texans86
08-23-2005, 09:44 PM
If Ragone came in as the #2 if Carr got hurt, would the defense change it's speed rusher to the opposite side of the field. One of the reasons the LT position is so difficult is that the DE on the side is a speed rusher and is usually gunning for the quarterback's backside. I honestly don't know if the defense changes it's lines positions. It seems like it would be the speed rusher coming Ragone's face.

Corrosion
08-23-2005, 11:10 PM
Oh, you were stating the obvious. It sounded like these were you only concerns. With Ragone the list is a lot longer.


Is Ragone a starting calibur QB .... NO . Can he step in during the regular season and fill in for Carr ? We dont know yet . If he plays like he did last season no . He looked like a deer caught in the headlights . But he has improved by leaps and bounds over the past year . Right now he's playing as well or better than Banks .
Lets face it , his job inst to be spectacular , just to come in and give the team a chance to win in the event Carr and or Banks are hurt . Basicly all that the coaching staff would ask of him would be to limit his mistakes while moving the chains in a simplified version of the offense .


If Ragone came in as the #2 if Carr got hurt, would the defense change it's speed rusher to the opposite side of the field. One of the reasons the LT position is so difficult is that the DE on the side is a speed rusher and is usually gunning for the quarterback's backside. I honestly don't know if the defense changes it's lines positions. It seems like it would be the speed rusher coming Ragone's face.

I doubt teams will switch a player from one side of the line or the other just because a QB is a lefty and want said player coming from his blind side .... In general a teams best pass blocker will be on the QB's blind side , The majority of QB's are right handed therefore the importance of the LT position . Both tackles jobs are similar in passing situations , best case is to allow the defender to gain ground upfield while being forced outside and beyond the QB forming a pocket where he can step up on release .The direction in which a QB will step changes from righty to lefty as well as his release point .... thus changing the dynamics of the pocket itself as well as passing lanes . Not to mentoin placing a generally inferior pass blocker in a position where he must protect the QB's blind side . :confused:

texan279
08-23-2005, 11:32 PM
Lets face it , his job inst to be spectacular , just to come in and give the team a chance to win in the event Carr and or Banks are hurt .

Exactly. Some people act as if the #2 and #3 QB should be as good as the starting QB. But if that was the case, he wouldn't be a #2 or #3. A backup should just be able to come in and be solid.

vtech9
08-23-2005, 11:51 PM
Is Ragone a starting calibur QB .... NO . Can he step in during the regular season and fill in for Carr ? We dont know yet . If he plays like he did last season no . He looked like a deer caught in the headlights . But he has improved by leaps and bounds over the past year .
Ummmm...If my memory is correct, Ragone did not play last year. He played in 2 games his rookie year, but I don't remember him playing at all last year. Hmmmm, maybe old age is catching up to me and my memory is starting to fail.

Corrosion
08-24-2005, 12:14 AM
Ummmm...If my memory is correct, Ragone did not play last year. He played in 2 games his rookie year, but I don't remember him playing at all last year. Hmmmm, maybe old age is catching up to me and my memory is starting to fail.


You are correct , he did NOT play in the Regular season last year . He has only seen action in Two regular season games in 03 . Starting both ... against Jacksonville in the 13th game (a 27- 0 loss) and against Tampa Bay in the 14th game ( a 16- 3 loss) . (Game logs here http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396067/gamelogs/2003) . This is the game action i was refering to ...135 passing yards in TWO starts isnt very impressive . One interception and FOUR fumbles (only one lost) are the scarriest part .

..... Looks like its my old age catching up to me :cool:

Scooter
08-24-2005, 01:57 AM
banks. trade ragone while he's got atleast a little value. ragone will never successfully start for an NFL team (except maybe the steelers). from everything i've seen on him, ragone is more likely to get a receiver's career ended than carry a team. banks has filled the role as a starter and backup and knows the roles ... he's not great, but he's competant.

i'll agree with another's post ... get rid of hollings, he's simply not good enough (DD, wells, & morancy are more than a strong backfield). one i dont agree with is the equivelant of "he shouldnt be as good as the starter". no, but at ragone's age he should either have the potential, or convince someone else he has the potential & trade him. ragone doesnt have carr's potential, but he has a small window of marketability. a veteran who can fill in as needed should be and usually is #2, with the new guy 3rd. ragone's moved past that. cut bait and let the next guy, i'd say symons, fill that role.

ATX
08-24-2005, 02:49 AM
Ragone will be here for a long time. sure we could trade him now or cut him now, but then what happens when banks retires or gets cut. you really want symmons as our backup QB next year? ragone's value now is the highest its ever been, but its not like teams are lining up to take him. IMO, he's our future #2 QB, i don't care if he wants to start, no team would start him, you have to earn a start and up to this point, he hasn't.

texan279
08-24-2005, 06:13 AM
ragone's value now is the highest its ever been, but its not like teams are lining up to take him.

I bet the Bears would take him... :goodnight

infantrycak
08-24-2005, 07:42 AM
. This is the game action i was refering to ...135 passing yards in TWO starts isnt very impressive . One interception and FOUR fumbles (only one lost) are the scarriest part .

..... Looks like its my old age catching up to me :cool:

Have to factore in the 8 sacks the OL gave up in those two games. People are not being fair to Ragone acting as if they can foretell his entire NFL career off two games his rookie season where his OL basically didn't show up. Those two weeks the OL was miserable. It was almost as if they didn't want to play if Carr wasn't back there.

jmantexfan
08-24-2005, 08:22 AM
Banks is old, very old and thats a fact. Throughout his career he has been a good back-up, but lets face it. he is old, and i believe it is beginning to show. Ragone however, is young, and has momentum coming off a great season in NFLE and has looked decent in preseason IMO, and Banks has not. If we get rid of Ragone and Carr goes down and BAnks fills in and really shows his age then we are stuck like chuck. With ragone we know that he can grow and has definately shown improvement. I say Banks stays incase he (isnt old) and can still be a competent back-up and if it does not work out then we bring in Ragone. I say Banks goes after the season, definately and if throughout this season Ragone doesnt continuously show improvement then he can go next season. right now i see Ragone is in Banks' neighborhood and should get better. If that doesnt happen then let him go but if it does, he may be our back-up of the future.

Corrosion
08-24-2005, 08:53 AM
Have to factore in the 8 sacks the OL gave up in those two games. People are not being fair to Ragone acting as if they can foretell his entire NFL career off two games his rookie season where his OL basically didn't show up. Those two weeks the OL was miserable. It was almost as if they didn't want to play if Carr wasn't back there.

Yes , the O-line was beyond miserable ... the fact that the Texans were forced to start their Rookie 3rd string QB says enough about the lines play ... They didnt want to play w/ Carr or Banks back there either :goodnight Im not judging his value to the team by those performances , a rookie playing like one ..... What i am getting at is that he has made HUGE improvement since that time .
Lets hope his improvement contiues and in the case that Carr goes down again in the future Ragone can come in and give limit his mistakes and give the team a chance to win .... thats about all you can ask of your back-up QB's . :tv:

JustBonee
08-24-2005, 09:25 AM
Just an observation ...
I noticed the QB group, standing side by side directly in front of me at the game, Tony Banks has a couple inches over DC (surprised me), and Dave Ragone is a couple inches shorter than DC. Height counts for something in your quarterback.

Crank_It_Up
08-24-2005, 10:04 AM
Wasn't true last year.banks only threw 2 passes last year, his lifetime completion percentage is 54.2% which would place the texans 30th out of 32 teams. So I'd have to agree with "HardCoreTxn" when he says "If Carr gets injured, we are screwed with eithier of these guys"