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View Full Version : Is J.Babin our Mike Mamula ?


nunusguy
07-04-2004, 07:38 PM
"The year was 1995 and new Eagles head coach Ray Rhodes fell in love. He watched tape, did his research and watched in awe as Boston College defensive end Mike Mamula dazzled NFL scouts with his rare explosive ability, his hunger, and his incredible workout talent.
Mamula became the darling of that draft, vaulting from relative obscurity to a top 10 draft pick. The rest is history ... and a lesson to every team and to every fan: Sometimes, you fall in love for the wrong reasons. "

This is from the Eagles web site, and the way the Eagles felt 'bout Mamula,
a smallish DE by NFL standards (250 lb) from a relatively small school in football reputation (Boston College), sounds uncomfortably familiar to our Jason Babin situation here in Houston.
Of course there's atleast one very important distinction between the 2 situations, both are true tweeners and our guy has a 3-4 D as the vehicle
to succeed in the NFL as an OLB but Mamula had to remain a down lineman. The link to the entire article is below:
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=10403

Vinny
07-04-2004, 07:58 PM
Mamula was a "workout warrior" who excelled in the weight room, on a track field and shot up the charts based on workout numbers. I am not sure these two guys equate since Babin was so productive on the field.

Porky
07-04-2004, 08:03 PM
Draft choices are like lottery tickets. You hit it big once in a while, win 3 dollars a lot, and occasionly you go home with nothing. (ok, so you USUALLY go home with nothing!) I don't really think one situation is amalgous to the other at all. So, they both played DE? There have been hundreds of DE drafted since 1995. Some hit it big, some are busts, and some in between. What some guy at Boston College did has ZERO impact on what Babin may or may not do. He may be the second coming of Lawrence Taylor, or he may be the next Mamula. More likely, he is somewhere between those two, but that will be due to his effort and talent, and not because of some guy drafted ten years ago. :twocents:

wags
07-04-2004, 08:18 PM
Babin is our Lawrence Taylor, without the crack.

jgl35
07-04-2004, 10:13 PM
I am an Eagles fan up here in Philly and know something about why Mamula was picked by the birds. As Vinny said, Mamula was a work out wonder, might have been the best numbers man at the combine that year. What the Eagles web site didn't tell you was that Jeff Lurie had just bought the team the year before and had just hired Ray Rhodes before the 95 season. Why the second part about Lurie is important is because Lurie was from Boston and had seen Mamula play in college. Most of us old fans felt this played a big part in the Eagles thinking in the first round in the draft. The Eagles traded up to draft him. Passed on a guy named Warren Sapp. Our owner has since let the football people run the player end of things. Something which has yet to be done down the road in Washington. The Eagles second round pick in 95 was Bobby Taylor, so things work out,but Taylor and Sapp would have been nice. I think it is unfair to compare your pick to anyone right now. Let the kid be himself. It takes three years to know how a draft went. Time will tell.

Playmaker
07-04-2004, 11:29 PM
All this Babin hype is great, I'm all for optimism. But training camp hasn't even started. Granted I don't follow offseason stuff on football as much and I don't know much about Babin other then we traded up to get him, but comparing and having multi-page threads about him is a bit much.

If he lives up to the hype great, if he's a bust it'll set us back but it's not like we can't replace him. I am gonna be watching him though because management traded up for him and rave about him. My eye will be more on Capers and Casserly's scouting because they wanted him bad.

Vinny
07-04-2004, 11:42 PM
All this Babin hype is great, I'm all for optimism. But training camp hasn't even started. Granted I don't follow offseason stuff on football as much and I don't know much about Babin other then we traded up to get him, but comparing and having multi-page threads about him is a bit much.

We talk about him alot because we are a 3-4 team in need of an impact OLB and he is the chosen one, hand picked by our 3-4 "experts". It's an enticing development considering that we really have not had a premiere edge rusher on our football team in the two years we have been in the NFL. He is supposed to be that guy.

Playmaker
07-05-2004, 12:03 AM
Understood, but the guy is a 27th 1rst round pick (if I remember correctly) not a 7th pick. I have a more guarded optimism about him. *edit*

I'm surprised he gets talked about more then Dunta Robinson.

Vinny
07-05-2004, 12:06 AM
Understood, but the guy is a 27th 1rst round pick (if I remember correctly) not a 7th pick. I have a more guarded optimism about him. Plus, I can't remember where I read this from, but I've heard he's dabbled with steroids early in his football career. If I'm wrong I'll edit this.

I'm surprised he gets talked about more then Dunta Robinson.3-4 defenses need outstanding outside linebackers. We don't have a 'great' OLB. We do have a solid Cornerback in Glenn. OLB has been a need here since the start. That's likely why.

Playmaker
07-05-2004, 12:26 AM
Why does someone have to be a 7th pick to have merit or excite the fan base? 3-4 defenses need outstanding outside linebackers. We don't have a 'great' OLB. We do have a solid Cornerback in Glenn. OLB has been a need here since the start. That's likely why.

Higher picks *usually* equates to higher expectations, from what I read Babin was a reach even at 27th. If OLB was such an importance (and I wholly agree that needed to be upgraded) then why not draft the best 3-4 LB at 11th cuz I'm sure there was a player ranked higher then Babin. I understand they drafted the best available athlete at thier need positions and came up with Dunta.

I guess it boils down to Babin being a reach at 27th pick. I *hope* he turns out what the Texans wanted him for but frankly won't be surprised if he doesn't live up to the expectations.

*edit*

Vinny
07-05-2004, 12:30 AM
Higher picks *usually* equates to higher expectations, from what I read Babin was a reach even at 27th. If OLB was such an importance (and I wholly agree that needed to be upgraded) then why not draft the best 3-4 LB at 11th cuz I'm sure there was a player ranked higher then Babin. The 27th overall pick is a high pick. Now, it wouldn't be in the NBA draft, but it certainly is in the NFL. We don't use conventional 4-3 OLB's in our system (most are too small and that is why you don't see us draft them for the most part) and the Texans stated that Babin was the highest rated edge player on their draft board (so that would make him the highest rated 3-4 olb in the draft according to the Texans). They haven't been prone to lie too much about such things since the start of the franchise and have been as straight-shooting a management team as we have directing our sports teams since I can remember, so take it fwiw.

Playmaker
07-05-2004, 12:51 AM
Sounds good, it's all good. :cool:

nunusguy
07-05-2004, 09:10 AM
Thanks for the contribution from the Philly guy, but I certainly don't think it's
unfair to make this comparison. It is what we do and it's all we can do until we
see him play ( exhibition games in August will begin to supply us with the info
we need to make some valid conclutions)
And it was not a surprise to all that Babin was picked so high - for example, Mel
Kiper, the ESPN draft guru, nailed the pick: his final Mock had Babin right at 26 or 27 in the first round as I recall.
Also, Cass & Capers totally concealed their interest in Babin. They always talked 'bout drafting D this year, but mainly lineman and backs. I read in numerous places where they said there really wasn't an edge type pash rusher out there
this year that caught their eye even though they openly acknowledged it was still a significant team need.

Number19
07-05-2004, 09:45 AM
...the Texans stated that Babin was the highest rated edge player on their draft board (so that would make him the highest rated 3-4 olb in the draft according to the Texans)...
Are you sure about this? My impression was that Babin was the highest rated player for the #40 pick. I'm sure Will Smith was rated higher. Have you noticed, physically, Babin is a clone of Smith. One other thought, the reason many feel we paid too high a price is because Carolina moved up into the first round, from #31 to #28 for only a 4th round pick, #127. This last statement is incorrect - I meant to mention Atlanta moving from #38 to #29 ( Indianapolis) by swapping thirds and only giving up a forth, #125. And of course they swapped #38 and #29.

DominatorDavis
07-05-2004, 11:23 AM
Babin was rated higher than Smith was by the Texans. They really only gave up a 3rd and and 4th to get the guy that they wanted. I'm all for it.

A Texan
07-05-2004, 11:53 AM
The guy Babin usually is compared to is Kevin Greene, who by the way was a 5th round choice who was an all pro several times.

Vinny
07-05-2004, 11:55 AM
Are you sure about this? My impression was that Babin was the highest rated player for the #40 pick. I posted it in the other Babin thread too.

by GM Charley Casserly
(opening statement) “We gave up a two, three, four and swapped fives. Today we will not pick again, and we will not trade up to pick in the third. Tomorrow, we’ll have a four, a fives, two sixes and two sevens. We have players rated and this was a player that we had rated highest at his position. He’s an outside linebacker for us. We had him slated to go late in the first round or early in the second. We got wind, others were trying to trade up to get him. So it became a little bit of a race to go get him. You have to make a decision if you want or don’t want the player. We wanted the player and this is the price that we had to pay. When you go into the draft, you have a wish list. Our two top guys were Dunta Robinson and Jason Babin. We accomplished the objective of getting our first two picks of our wish list.” by GM Charley Casserly
"We thought it was a strong draft early and a strong draft late. There were a lot of players in the middle that we already had here, because we had so many draft picks in our first two years. Other teams didn’t have the draft picks like we had. They didn’t have the luxury of having a surplus of picks to trade and move up to get a player. The way I viewed the trade is that we had two fourth round picks, one of which came from a fifth round trade last year. When you have extra picks, you get them to move up. It was a throw away pick. In my view we gave up a third round pick to move up. At that point the player on our board was an offensive guard and we’ve got enough good offensive guards now. That was not a position we wanted to take. We probably would have movedout of the third round."

Number19
07-05-2004, 03:53 PM
by GM Charley Casserly
...We have players rated and this was a player that we had rated highest at his position...Our two top guys were Dunta Robinson and Jason Babin. We accomplished the objective of getting our first two picks of our wish list.”
My mistake was taking these two statements and taking "position" to mean drafting position and not playing position.

We will never know about Smith, but if you are correct, I'd like to know what it is about Babin that had them rate him above Smith.

By the way, Babin was off my radar. I wanted Smith as our first pick with Robinson my second choice. Had I been aware of Babin, I probably would have seriously considered Robinson & Babin as my 1-2. Anyways, I am very pleased with these choices and am looking forward to following these two.

Fiddy
07-05-2004, 04:03 PM
I didnt know who Jason Babin was until the day before the draft when I was looking at the prospect videos for ESPN Motion. And I think I can say, safely, that he was off everybody's radar except Casserly's and Capers'. When they traded up I thought they were getting Karlos Dansby because he has the size to play OLB in a 34 and has played the position, but I never question C&C so I trust Babin will be a good player, just give him time...

ArlingtonTexan
07-06-2004, 08:43 AM
Most draft people had Babin rated as a 2nd or 3rd rounder, but Kiper a couple of months before the draft, put out a mock draft with him going something like 19 overall.

rittenhouserobz
07-06-2004, 10:14 AM
I guess it boils down to Babin being a reach at 27th pick. I *hope* he turns out what the Texans wanted him for but frankly won't be surprised if he doesn't live up to the expectations.


In order to be a reach wouldn't the Texans have to be the only team who wanted him? I just remember reading that other teams had an interest.

nunusguy
07-06-2004, 10:36 AM
Even though I have my reservations about the pick, they center around paying the price that we paid for the 27th, not so much for using the 27th pick on
Babin. I think there is a distinction between the two. It almost makes me wonder if the Titans themselves weren't in the hunt for Babin (not just a division
rival wanting to stick it to us to the max).

Vinny
07-06-2004, 12:37 PM
We only gave up one first day pick. How is that "sticking us to the max"? Do the other second day picks bother you that much?

Fiddy
07-06-2004, 12:42 PM
In order to be a reach wouldn't the Texans have to be the only team who wanted him? I just remember reading that other teams had an interest.The Rams had a lot of intrest in him and probably would have taken him to replace Grant Winstrom if Steven Jackson wasnt on the board.

nunusguy
07-06-2004, 02:55 PM
It seems to me that Travis LaBoy & Randy Starks are more than fair consideration to give up for Babin (though its all speculation at this point, since none of us have any knowledge of how these guys will perform in the NFL). Additional consideration of the TCU player (Schobel the DE - think that's his name) represents a definite premium. Swapping 5ht round picks is immaterial. LaBoy, a DE who would also be a OLB prospect for us, might have near the potential that Babin has. And Starks was a mock first rounder for quite a while, but fell like a rock shortley before the draft ? The guy was a DL in college in the 3-4 at Maryland - our D line, though looking good for this season is old and thin.
Still on the board in the 3rd round, I think Starks could be the steal of the draft this year ,i.e., this years D.Davis.
I'd be skeptical of the Rams( or any other 4-3 team), having genuine interest in
Babin in the first round. Babin reportedly is relative sluggish and not nearly as
quick playing at a heavier weight than 260. He is a true tweener, only 3-4 teams would pay top dollar for him.

Vinny
07-06-2004, 03:06 PM
Babin played at or near 265-270 most of the time in College. He was very productive at that weight.

93 Jason Babin 2 DT 6-4 265 Jr./Sr. Paw Paw, MI (Paw Paw H.S.)

http://www.wmubroncos.com/sports/football/roster.html

powda
07-06-2004, 04:40 PM
for what its worth the draft guru from the dallas morning news (whats his name again?) had babin in the low 20's as i recall. this is the same guy whos always one of or the most acurate draft forecaster.

i seem to recall hearing the titans did have an intrest in babin.

Vinny
07-06-2004, 04:58 PM
for what its worth the draft guru from the dallas morning news (whats his name again?) had babin in the low 20's as i recall. this is the same guy whos always one of or the most acurate draft forecaster.

i seem to recall hearing the titans did have an intrest in babin.
It was Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News and he had Babin rated as the 32nd best prospect in the NFL draft regardless of position. Travis LaBoy was 62 fwiw.

powda
07-06-2004, 05:38 PM
rated 32 probably ,but where did his final mock have babin going. maybe im stubborn ,but im almost sure it was in the twenties.

Vinny
07-06-2004, 05:53 PM
It really doesn't matter. "Mock" drafts are named accordingly. Guesses and such are fun and games I guess.

Gosselin's mock on 4/18...

1.. San Diego - Eli Manning, QB, Mississippi.
2.. Oakland - Robert Gallery, T, Iowa.
3.. Arizona - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pittsburgh..
4.. NY Giants - Philip Rivers, QB, North Carolina State.
5.. Washington - Kellen Winslow, TE, Miami, Fla.
6.. Detroit - Roy Williams, WR, Texas.
7.. Cleveland - Sean Taylor, S, Miami, Fla.
8.. Atlanta - DeAngelo Hall, CB, Virginia Tech.
9.. Jacksonville - Mike Williams, WR, USC.
10.. Houston - Will Smith, DE, Ohio State. .
11.. Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Miami, Ohio.
12.. NY Jets - Dunta Robinson, CB, South Carolina.
13.. Buffalo - Lee Evans, WR, Wisconsin.
14.. Chicago - Tommie Harris, DL, Oklahoma.
15.. Tampa Bay - Kenechi Udeze, DE, USC.
16.. San Francisco - Reggie Williams, WR, Washington.
17.. Denver (from Cincinnati) - Ben Troupe, TE, Florida.
18.. New Orleans - D.J. Williams, LB, Miami, Fla.
19.. Minnesota - Vince Wilfork, DT, Miami, Fla. .
20.. Miami - Michael Clayton, WR, LSU.
21.. New England - Kevin Jones, RB, Virginia Tech.
22.. Dallas - Steven Jackson, RB, Oregon State.
23.. Seattle - Shawn Anderson, OT, Arkansas.
24.. Cincinnati (from Denver) - Chris Gamble, CB, Ohio State.
25.. Green Bay - Marcus Tubbs, DT, Texas.
26.. ST. LOUIS - Jason Babin, DE Western Michigan.

powda
07-06-2004, 06:11 PM
appreciate it vin. the reason gosselin is so well respected in draft circles is his ability to "call" the first round of the draft (i.e. mock). i cant speak for this year but last year he had the highest percentage accurate of any publication or respected source of draft news. i do give him some credibility. and while i wont say i value kiper's opinion as much LOTS of people seem to. they both had babin rated as a first round prospect.

the texans obviously had him rated as a first rounder as did at least one other nfl team wich forced our one-sided trade.

still a reach? :crazy:

whitestar
07-07-2004, 08:12 AM
Babin will be speacial I have a gut feeling.

Beastlyman2003
07-08-2004, 03:04 PM
NUNUSGUY, FYI, at the combine, Babin ran a 4.65 40-yard dash, he also did 31 225-lbs
reps, and weighed in at 265lbs. Thats isnt sluggish, weak or small for an OLB. Get the facts straight.

Fiddy
07-08-2004, 03:51 PM
And the speed should get better because Dan Reily is getting Babin down to the 250 range. Read that awhile back....

nunusguy
07-08-2004, 06:08 PM
If the report is that Babin is being thinned down to 'bout 250, then maybe we
can get him moved back to weakside OLB where we can maximize his pass rushing skills - afterall, that's why we paid a ton for him. At 'bout 250, he's virtually the same size as Wong and the argument would be gone to have him
on the strong side because of superior size. The best pass rusher (generally speaking), plays weakside OLB in the 3-4 (weakside DE in the 4-3), just like the best pass rush blocker plays LT in the interior line. Strenth vs. strenth.

Vinny
07-08-2004, 06:20 PM
They won't move him there. They play him at his current position because they like his size, and if I am not mistaken he played on that side in College so I don't think there is any "move-back" since he never played on that side.

Mistril48
07-08-2004, 06:53 PM
If the report is that Babin is being thinned down to 'bout 250, then maybe we can get him moved back to weakside OLB where we can maximize his pass rushing skills - afterall, that's why we paid a ton for him ...

I believe Babin's cap number for 2004, approximately $1,122,000, is much less than Wong's, at $3,800,000.

If by 'paid a ton' you are referring to the trade, I don't think a 3rd round pick, an extra 4th round pick and an exchange of 5th round picks is much to move up 13 spots to get back in the first round. I'm thrilled that the Texans had two first round picks and still have a first round pick next year. The C'boys, Titans, Ravens and Colts fans don't get to look forward to seeing their first round pick this year.

The best pass rusher (generally speaking), plays weakside OLB in the 3-4 (weakside DE in the 4-3),...

I disagree. Was Latham better than Green for the Panthers, or were both of them good (Pro Bowl). I think the Texans feel more comfortable with Wong playing in what generally is the greater space of the weakside, since it is Babins first year at OLB.

Good luck saying to Capers, "I didn't get to the quarterback because it's harder from over here on the (usually) strong side."

Grid
07-08-2004, 07:35 PM
they stated that the top 3 guys on their draft board were.

1. Sean Taylor
2. Dunta Robinson
3. Jason Babin


in other words.. those are the 3 guys that the texans wanted most of all. they tried to trade up for taylor but people were asking WAY to much. So we grabbed dunta.

we WERE going to wait until the 2nd round and grab babin, but apparently someone else wanted him too and were trading up to grab him.. so we traded up immediatly.. gave up a 3rd rounder and got our guy.

so no.. none of those other OLBs were rated above Babin on our draft board.. he was numero uno.

nunusguy
07-08-2004, 07:53 PM
In our division the best pass rushers are Freeney and "The Freak" (now in PHL), and both are weak side DE. I remember the Miami game well and the battle between Pitts & Jason Taylor - weak side again. Just to name a few that I can think from games we played last year but I'm sure there are exceptions - Green for the Panthers way back
when he played - maybe was one - if he was the best rusher ?
There's simply more opportunities on the weak side for a pass rusher - no TE
to block you (usually), and QB more vulnerable (usually right-handed, therefor
weakside gets QBs blind side). It is the side of the field that has the most opportunities for a pass rusher.
If Wonk was really an effective pass rusher, they should have moved him to weakside last year after Jeff Posey left for Buffalo.

Vinny
07-08-2004, 08:22 PM
The best pass rusher on the Panthers and the Giants are Julius Peppers and Michael Strahan and they both play on the other side. Babin will not be moved.

Mistril48
07-08-2004, 09:10 PM
In our division the best pass rushers are Freeney and "The Freak" (now in PHL), and both are weak side DE. I remember the Miami game well and the battle between Pitts & Jason Taylor - weak side again...
I was referring to a 3-4 defense. Your examples are all 4-3 defenses, where generally the DE doesn't drop into coverage (other then zone blitz).

In a 3-4 defense, both OLBs will be called upon to rush the passer from time to time. However when dropping into coverage, there will generally be more space to cover on the weak side (ie no TE and defender, more space). The decision to put Babin on the left may have had more to do with his coverage responsibilities, generally, than sack opportunities.

Vinny
07-08-2004, 09:16 PM
The decision to put Babin on the left may have had more to do with his coverage responsibilities, generally, than sack opportunities.
I think it has more to do with his size and his ability to stop the run than his coverage skills. I think the long term thinking is Peek at the Weak side and Babin on the strong side by 2005.

Fiddy
07-08-2004, 09:55 PM
I think the long term thinking is Peek at the Weak side and Babin on the strong side by 2005.I would love to see that combo this year...

powda
07-08-2004, 10:38 PM
as would i. anything to get more speed on the field as long as the production is at least the same.

peek sharper wong babin

nice combo. and young.