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jmantexfan
08-07-2005, 01:39 PM
Who are the texans going to practice against before preseason, and when will it be.

Vinny
08-07-2005, 01:47 PM
Broncos in town on the 10th practice against them twice and play them Saturday.

jmantexfan
08-07-2005, 02:54 PM
I read the article about how the jets went full speed against the giants and how they were objective to it. does anyone think it would be wise for the texans to practice that speed with the broncos or should we go half speed. i just thought that Tom coughlins fiew on how the jets "played to hard" was kind of weak. I would rather we treated it as a real game to prepare us for real games.

Vinny
08-07-2005, 02:56 PM
I think you have that wrong. They (the teams) agreed not to hit the backs and Coughlin called them on not honoring the agreement.

Ibar_Harry
08-07-2005, 02:58 PM
Sounds like to parties agreeing to a limited war. It never seems to work very well.

Vinny
08-07-2005, 02:59 PM
If you agree not to hit the QB's you don't hit the QB's. Same for the backs. Football isn't war.

Ibar_Harry
08-07-2005, 03:02 PM
If you agree not to hit the QB's you don't hit the QB's. Same for the backs. Football isn't war.

No, but it is competition and everyone wants to win and seems like if someone is getting the best of you you try to change what you are doing. I would agree Vinny that its suppose to be a gentleman's agreement, but in the heat of battle things change.

jmantexfan
08-07-2005, 03:03 PM
I think you have that wrong. They (the teams) agreed not to hit the backs and Coughlin called them on not honoring the agreement.
Im just saying i think it would be better if we were to be the aggressor in the scrimmage as opposed to being the ones getting rolled over going half speed and complaining about the broncos hitting to hard or breaking rules. From how the article read, the Giants were getting rolled over. in many games, players get away with cheating or bending rules or even the occassional rough housing. fact is on game day you can complain all you want, but its not gonna help.

Vinny
08-07-2005, 03:09 PM
I would agree Vinny that its suppose to be a gentleman's agreement, but in the heat of battle things change.If you can't honor rules then you shouldn't agree to them in the first place. Nothing changes except it makes the one breaking the agreement a liar or untrustworthy.

Later in the morning practice session, Coughlin got into an argument with Henderson after several plays in which the Jets appeared to go beyond the prescribed rules of the practice, which allow defensive players to bump or slow down ball carriers as they go by, without tackling them.

Big B Texan Fan
08-07-2005, 03:15 PM
We practiced with them last year, we shouldn't have any problems.

Texans Pride
08-07-2005, 03:17 PM
Fighting out of the blue corner, the administrator from the Texans board. . . Vinny


And his challenger, fighting out of the red corner, the man everyone loves to hate Ibar

Gentleman, let's have a good clean fight with no punches below the belt!

Round 1....DING DING

PapaL
08-08-2005, 06:27 AM
When teams go half speed, people get hurt. Not what we want this early in the season. Wasn't there and agreement in the Tokyo Bowl, not blitzing while first team Offense was out, that seemed to work out fine. Starters got their reps in, backups saw full action. Kept Manning and Vick from being hurt.

Yankee_In_TX
08-08-2005, 08:50 AM
When teams go half speed, people get hurt. Not what we want this early in the season. Wasn't there and agreement in the Tokyo Bowl, not blitzing while first team Offense was out, that seemed to work out fine. Starters got their reps in, backups saw full action. Kept Manning and Vick from being hurt.

I didn't catch if NY/NY was a scrimmage or preseason game...

If preseason game, it should be full speed, and do what LCROD said. No one bought tickets to watch a practice.

If it's a scrimmage, I don't think it should be full speed or 100% contacnt.

IMO.

Lucky
08-08-2005, 09:50 AM
We practiced with them last year, we shouldn't have any problems.
I think it was during the '03 camp, right? I remember some Bronco players complaining that the Texans practiced at a slower tempo. Then the heat got to them the next day, & the grumbling about tempo stopped. Capers & Shanahan have a lot of respect for each other. Shanahan raved about the Texans facility & said he'd like to come back. He wasn't flapping his gums, they're back.

PapaL
08-08-2005, 10:52 AM
I didn't catch if NY/NY was a scrimmage or preseason game...

If preseason game, it should be full speed, and do what LCROD said. No one bought tickets to watch a practice.

If it's a scrimmage, I don't think it should be full speed or 100% contacnt.

IMO.

I don't remember if I heard it pre-game or on NFL Network, but the coaches had a gentlemen's agreement to not blitz 1st teams. Hopefully it catches on league wide.

Yankee_In_TX
08-08-2005, 11:25 AM
I don't remember if I heard it pre-game or on NFL Network, but the coaches had a gentlemen's agreement to not blitz 1st teams. Hopefully it catches on league wide.

I mean, does this agreement apply to practices/scrimmages, or pre season games?

TEXANS84
08-08-2005, 01:08 PM
I didn't catch if NY/NY was a scrimmage or preseason game...

It was a scrimmage/practice, similar to the one that the Texans will have with the Broncos during the week.

Yankee_In_TX
08-08-2005, 01:50 PM
Hahahaha, we wne tover the edge mid offseason.

We're doing much better now :highfive:

PapaL
08-08-2005, 02:07 PM
I mean, does this agreement apply to practices/scrimmages, or pre season games?

This was for that preseason game.

fball
08-08-2005, 04:23 PM
Hey guy's I thought I heard on the radio that the open practice for the 10th vs. the broncos was closed to the public, what is that about?!?!?!?! Is that correct? :confused:

TEXANS84
08-08-2005, 04:40 PM
Hey guy's I thought I heard on the radio that the open practice for the 10th vs. the broncos was closed to the public, what is that about?!?!?!?! Is that correct? :confused:

I'll be pissed if that's the case. I've got people in from out of town that have been looking forward to that.

jmantexfan
08-08-2005, 05:53 PM
will the practice with the broncos be shown on any local channels or atleast on channel 51?

TEXANS84
08-10-2005, 11:26 PM
Just got back from practice, and here are my takes:

*Jerome Mathis took one to the house (or would have) on a punt return. Very impressive and got to see his full speed.
*Morlon Greenwood was trailing in coverage during the two minuite drills on consecutive passes.
*Phillip Buchanan was beat by Rod Smith a couple times on quick 15 yard outs.
*The Texans lost 3-0 on the two minuite drills. 1st team offense vs. 1st team defense, then 2nd team offense vs. 2nd team defense. Broncos 1st team offense marched down the field to score on a 50+ yard field goal. Texans first team offense didn't look like they were clicking very well, and Carr was sacked puting them in a 3rd and 20 position. Next play, Carr throws an interception under pressure again. 2nd team defense held Broncos 2nd team defense on 3rd and short. 2nd team offense (Texans), Banks throws an interception on the 5th play of the drive.

*Kevin Kasper almost started world war III with the Broncos after pushing a cornerback down after a (somewhat) late hit on Domanick Davis on the goalline. It was about to hit Jets/Giants if the Broncos coaches weren't in the way.

*Ragone threw multiple interceptions from near goalline situations.

*Andre Johnson took a 15 yard hook pass to the house on what was the best play (offensively).

*Andre Johnson was used in slot plays almost throughout the entire practice.

*Ramon Walker blocked two consecutive punts against the Broncos special teams, reminding me of the Pats game two years ago. He looks to be in full form again.

*Victor Riley was 1st team Left Tackle throughout the practice, and did not hold up very well at all. Wand looked decent in 2nd team protection.

Thats all for now, I may remember something later.

Big B Texan Fan
08-10-2005, 11:36 PM
'84, you said Greenwood was trailing in coverage. Did you mean that in a negative sense.

How was our pressure on the QB?

Did our guys get any int's?

How did Davis look?

TEXANS84
08-10-2005, 11:40 PM
'84, you said Greenwood was trailing in coverage. Did you mean that in a negative sense.

How was our pressure on the QB?

Did our guys get any int's?

How did Davis look?

Greenwood-yes, it wasn't what I expected. But I may be being a bit too harsh right now. I'll wait until they are in full pads this weekend to comment further.

Pressure on the QB was fairly little to none during the two minuite drills. Unfortunatley I was on the Texans offensive side of the field for the duration of the camp.

No interceptions during the two minuite drills, I never heard any cheers on the other side of the field where the defense was. Broncos defense had at least 6-7 by the end of the evening.

Davis looks great as usual. Morency is so amazingly similar to him, its fun to watch him run.

BroncoMan13
08-11-2005, 01:23 AM
Greenwood-yes, it wasn't what I expected. But I may be being a bit too harsh right now. I'll wait until they are in full pads this weekend to comment further.

Pressure on the QB was fairly little to none during the two minuite drills. Unfortunatley I was on the Texans offensive side of the field for the duration of the camp.

No interceptions during the two minuite drills, I never heard any cheers on the other side of the field where the defense was. Broncos defense had at least 6-7 by the end of the evening.

Davis looks great as usual. Morency is so amazingly similar to him, its fun to watch him run.


Denver's secondary has been a topic of deep concern over the past few months...err...years! It's encouraging to hear that our younger guys were able to step up to the plate and make some plays. I have a few questions for you though.

First, any idea who was punting when the punts were blocked. We have a rookie in camp that has been booming the ball and is actually pushing Todd Sauerbuns pretty hard. Most on-lookers have said he is a little bit slower than Sauerbrun. His name is Paul Ernster (sp?) if that rings a bell.

Second, were the Broncos getting pretty good pressure on Carr and Ragone? I'm wondering b/c the TO's have been absent in Denver for the past couple years and pressure is paramount for TO's.

I'm glad to see Dre doing so well for you guys. I just moved from Houston in March and know full well how good that kid is. Palmer needs to keep him in games and get the ball to him. The last four games of the season were poor (statisically) for Johnson but his number didn't seem to be called too often. He's quickly becoming a more humble Terrell Owens.

How is Travis Johnson doing? I was pretty high on him pre-draft. I didn't agree with the Texans drafting him as WR and OT were more pressing needs, but he's a good player none the less.

I hope to see a lot of Dom Davis this year. I think Morency is a player. I also think Dom is a little whacked out. He's concerned with Dom's size and ability to grind out tough yards so he goes out and gets another "undersized" back.

Anyhow, if any of you could answer my questions it would be greatly appreciated. Good luck this year... I hope to see the Texans in the playoffs along with the Broncos!!!

Bman

ledzeppelin229
08-11-2005, 02:13 AM
Denver's secondary has been a topic of deep concern over the past few months...err...years! It's encouraging to hear that our younger guys were able to step up to the plate and make some plays. I have a few questions for you though.

First, any idea who was punting when the punts were blocked. We have a rookie in camp that has been booming the ball and is actually pushing Todd Sauerbuns pretty hard. Most on-lookers have said he is a little bit slower than Sauerbrun. His name is Paul Ernster (sp?) if that rings a bell.

Second, were the Broncos getting pretty good pressure on Carr and Ragone? I'm wondering b/c the TO's have been absent in Denver for the past couple years and pressure is paramount for TO's.

I'm glad to see Dre doing so well for you guys. I just moved from Houston in March and know full well how good that kid is. Palmer needs to keep him in games and get the ball to him. The last four games of the season were poor (statisically) for Johnson but his number didn't seem to be called too often. He's quickly becoming a more humble Terrell Owens.

How is Travis Johnson doing? I was pretty high on him pre-draft. I didn't agree with the Texans drafting him as WR and OT were more pressing needs, but he's a good player none the less.

I hope to see a lot of Dom Davis this year. I think Morency is a player. I also think Dom is a little whacked out. He's concerned with Dom's size and ability to grind out tough yards so he goes out and gets another "undersized" back.

Anyhow, if any of you could answer my questions it would be greatly appreciated. Good luck this year... I hope to see the Texans in the playoffs along with the Broncos!!!

Bman


I'll answer the parts that aren't directly related to tonights TC practice the best I can. Supposedly TJ has been ripping apart our 2nd team, but I'm not sure what his success has been so far against first team OL. So far he seems to have been a good pick despite what you hear from the vocal DJ fans around here. (I'll be honest, I wanted DJ too, but I'll give TJ a chance. I already learned my lesson when I had some questions about Dunta last year. I don't get paid for this.)

One of the things you can usually count on with Cass & Capers is they'll go BPA as much as they can. They really liked Williamson, but he went too far ahead to make a move. Apparently, they didn't think a whole lot of Barron and passed him by multiple times. There just wasn't much in the ways of LTs available in the middle of the round.

WR2 could have been taken care of with Mathis in the 4th, who seems to be lighting it up so far and not just because of his speed. His hands seem better than people thought at first, and while his routes need work I think he'll make some noise with his speed alone this year. Year 2 or 3, he should be showing his real ability.

The primary issue with DD is his tendency to get nicked up, and as a result the running game has suffered. Overall though he's been a pretty productive RB and his size hasn't been much of an issue to be honest. He's a much tougher runner than our 6'1" 240 RB Wells. The coaches wanted a similar RB that would be pretty much interchangeable with Davis so the gameplan wouldn't have to be drastically altered. So far Morency has been Davis's twin in many ways.

Hope this helps, I haven't been to any of the TC practices so this is all second hand from posters and the Chronicle.

U4ikrob
08-11-2005, 05:59 AM
Denver's secondary has been a topic of deep concern over the past few months...err...years! It's encouraging to hear that our younger guys were able to step up to the plate and make some plays. I have a few questions for you though.

First, any idea who was punting when the punts were blocked. We have a rookie in camp that has been booming the ball and is actually pushing Todd Sauerbuns pretty hard. Most on-lookers have said he is a little bit slower than Sauerbrun. His name is Paul Ernster (sp?) if that rings a bell.

Second, were the Broncos getting pretty good pressure on Carr and Ragone? I'm wondering b/c the TO's have been absent in Denver for the past couple years and pressure is paramount for TO's.

I'm glad to see Dre doing so well for you guys. I just moved from Houston in March and know full well how good that kid is. Palmer needs to keep him in games and get the ball to him. The last four games of the season were poor (statisically) for Johnson but his number didn't seem to be called too often. He's quickly becoming a more humble Terrell Owens.

How is Travis Johnson doing? I was pretty high on him pre-draft. I didn't agree with the Texans drafting him as WR and OT were more pressing needs, but he's a good player none the less.

I hope to see a lot of Dom Davis this year. I think Morency is a player. I also think Dom is a little whacked out. He's concerned with Dom's size and ability to grind out tough yards so he goes out and gets another "undersized" back.

Anyhow, if any of you could answer my questions it would be greatly appreciated. Good luck this year... I hope to see the Texans in the playoffs along with the Broncos!!!

Bman

Texans 84 - I thought it was Banks who was getting picked for the most part on the night. I saw him throw 3 picks and a few close calls - Ragone I only saw him throw 2 picks on the night same as Carr. Overall I thought Ragone looked much sharper than Banks did except one play were he sailed the ball out of the endzone - uncatchable. I also sat on the offensive side of the field - wish I would have known you were out there - could have got a beer :crying: I ran into JoeTexan, Filo Doc and Carrie, Heather and Ted of blue crew out at TC too.

Broncoman

Punts - The Broncos didnt have names on there jerseys for TC so I dont know his name, but his jersey was #10 and I assume he is the rookie your talking about. Had good range like you mentioned when he got em off as he was a bit slower and had multiple punts blocked. Our ST were on fire and got close on Saurbraun a few times during drills also.

Pressure - They restricted contact on QB's and called backs down on good contact so it's a little harder to tell how good the pressure really was. OVerall the Broncos d-line got decent pressure and would have sacked Carr and Banks both 2 times. Ragone rolled out a bit more. Trevor Price looked very good and put regular pressure on the Texans. Texans were having trouble all night in the passing lanes as stated above. The Broncos secondary had multiple picks on the day and looked very sharp.

Didnt see alot of TJ in action as I was on the O-side of the field. On the drills and 2 minute scrimmage the Texans defense did not put much pressure on the Broncos QB in general.

Morrency looked ok on the night and had a couple of decent carries. Wells actually looked pretty good on the night and played with more fire than ive seen in 3 years. Mathis and Dre were the 2 that made regular highlights on the night with one play after another. Mathis almost took one to the house on a punt return - got a good 50 yards before stepping out. He was very quick and would agree with 84 - he seemed to have much better hands than was reported. I'm thinking he will be our returner this year. Kasper made a few good highlights too esp his grab at the back of the endzone was a nice highlight. Allthough when things got heated on the late hit I thought they were going to get into it. It was nice seeing David Carr step in and help defuse things as the leader of the team.

BroncoMan13
08-11-2005, 11:17 AM
Thanks Led Zep and KRob... great reports. I'm glad to hear it wasn't Sauerbuns getting the punts blocked. Supposedly he's never had one blocked in his career!

Did any of you guys happen to notice how Denver's kicker was doing on kickoffs? This rookie that has the big leg can supposedly kick the crap out of the ball but we haven't had much in the way of reports on him... except for punting. The kid will stay in the league. The Packers are already interested in him and watching him closely. The Vikings probably are as well according to a couple posters at the Orangemane.

Classy of David Carr to step up and be a leader during the skirmish. I've said that with an upgrade OL and one more WR or TE that Carr could easily be a top 10 QB in the league and probably top 5. He has more speed than people realize and has a lot of athleticsm for a QB. He should be good to go, just needs some protection.

One last question on the Broncos. We drafted Darrent Williams (Okst.) with our first pick in the draft. He is a burner in the return games and a ballhawk at CB. He's small to be a starting caliber CB (5'8) and takes a lot of chances, but he's playing with the first team right now since Champ is nursing a hammy... the question is, did anybody notice a midget in the secondary making some plays and how did this guy look on Punt/kick returns.

You guys rock and I appreciate your responses to an outsider! Thanks!

Lucky
08-11-2005, 11:57 AM
T I'm glad to hear it wasn't Sauerbuns getting the punts blocked. Supposedly he's never had one blocked in his career!
It was Sauerbrun getting blocked. Not his fault, the Texans were just all over him by the time he made his step. At one point, the Broncos special teams coach screamed "This isn't a walkthrough. Did you think this was a walkthrough?"

Did any of you guys happen to notice how Denver's kicker was doing on kickoffs?
Kickoffs weren't practiced during the evening session open to the public.

One last question on the Broncos. We drafted Darrent Williams (Okst.) with our first pick in the draft. He is a burner in the return games and a ballhawk at CB. He's small to be a starting caliber CB (5'8) and takes a lot of chances, but he's playing with the first team right now since Champ is nursing a hammy... the question is, did anybody notice a midget in the secondary making some plays and how did this guy look on Punt/kick returns.
Darrent Williams looked great. I don't care about his height, the guy can make plays. Carr took advantage of Williams once by making Armstrong climb the ladder to make a catch in the endzone. Otherwise, Darrent was handling his stuff. If I were Lenny Walls, I'd be worried about my starting job. Didn't notice Williams on punt returns.

Other Broncos I noticed:
Chris Young - broke up a lot of passes during red zone drills.
DJ Williams - was all over the field causing havoc (what's new?).
Nick Ferguson - somebody put out an APB on this guy, 'cause he was killing us.
Trevor Pryce - is right. He's all the way back from his back troubles.
Stephen Alexander - can beat a LB and get open. Fantasy sleeper.
Bradlee Van Pelt - better hope the Broncos won't need him to QB for an extended period. Kubiak was reading Van Pelt the riot act after the 2nd team 2 minute drill.

Things I noticed about the Broncos in general:

The secondary is fearless in jumping routes. Worked out for them during a practice, we'll see about the games.

Plummer looks more in sync with his receivers. He did a good job of hitting them in stride.

The Broncos will blitz any down, any player, any situation. Safety blitz a 2 minute offense? I'd like to see that chutzpah when the games count.

BroncoMan13
08-11-2005, 12:04 PM
Thanks Lucky... I was hoping that it would have been our Rookie getting blocked... that's a little disheartening. Also read on the team site that we had a lot of inexperience during those events. Hopefully that problem gets resolved and fast!

Darrent Williams has been a stud so far. Lenny isn't in jepardy of losing his job, but it looks like Darrent has the Nickel all wrapped up. He is supposedly a super stud at returning punts, kicks, and INT's.

Funny that you guys got both Morency and Mathis. They were two of my favored players in the draft. I was hoping for both of them! Certainly would have liked to have Mathis over Paymah at this point! Can't complain though. So far D. Williams and Foxworth have been great players in camp. Nice to hear for us since we seemingly can't draft CB's to save our lives!

Anyhow, thanks for the reports... you guys are great!

Ibar_Harry
08-11-2005, 03:32 PM
What has not been said is how our O-line looked. From what I gathered it was not anything to get excited about. It also appears that we do have some very good WR's and that appears not to be a problem this year. The two M's in the draft both appear to be the real thing. AJ is AJ. Are they using Riley, because he's a comfortible option to blame a lack of show on? For a Coach who likes to have players who play a lot of positions, it seems to me they have been awfully stagnet in the way the O-line is perceived. From everthing I've read so far, there hasn't been any tweeking of the line at all. Once again, they look absolutely locked in. If this is the best our O-line can be, we are in for a very long season. Saturday's preseason game is going to be big for the Texans. I believe that they will have to make some decisions after that game concerning the O-line, if they are going to make any changes at all. Those of you who can, please let us know what happens. While I'm pointed in my comments, I really hope that we start hearing some positive comments. Many have posted we will be alright, because they have had more time to work together and gel. I don't hear those works coming out of the scrimmages and practices.

Ibar_Harry
08-11-2005, 03:35 PM
And yes, THANK YOU, to those who have so kindly posted their impressions of the scrimmage. It really is greatly appreciated and its nice to get a cross section of views. Many of you seem to be very observant and I find it amazing what some of you pick up on. I sometimes wonder if you don't see more than the coaches. Once again, THANK YOU...........

TEXANS84
08-11-2005, 03:49 PM
What has not been said is how our O-line looked. From what I gathered it was not anything to get excited about.

Are they using Riley, because he's a comfortible option to blame a lack of show on? For a Coach who likes to have players who play a lot of positions, it seems to me they have been awfully stagnet in the way the O-line is perceived.

I was not impressed with Riley last night. He looks more suited to play guard, somewhat lead footed. Seemed out of breath alot. Once the ball was snapped he would make initial contact well, but after the second push he seemed to back pedal (overwhelmed) collapsing the pocket.
Wand looked somewhat better against the 2nd team defense. He held his own a lot longer than Riley did. But Riley was more dominant on the running plays than Wand was.
The sack against Carr on the first team remarkably didn't come from the left side, it came from the middle.


Many have posted we will be alright, because they have had more time to work together and gel. I don't hear those works coming out of the scrimmages and practices.

I'm one of those optomistic few that feels the O-line needs to gel. But if an indication on what I saw last night is going to be a sense for the season, then we are in trouble again.

Lucky
08-11-2005, 03:58 PM
...If this is the best our O-line can be, we are in for a very long season.
It was a single practice. The Broncos ran every blitz created by man. It's good that this happened in a practice rather than a regular season game. And the QBs & WRs have as much or more to do with the poor performance in the passing game. The Texans struggled in 7 on 7 drills...no line, no rush. The WRs weren't uncovering & the QBs were forcing the ball. That's OK, they can learn from this, too. AJ struggled for much of the night coming out of motion and into his pattern. It's new to him and he's still learning. And regarding the sack the Texans took in the 2 minute drill...that would not have been a sack in a real game. The safety broke through and touched the back of Carr's shoulder pads. Carr was already breaking out of the pocket & could have found someone downfield (that's what he does best). No way the safety drops Carr on that play, but you have to have the touch rule in these practices to avoid injuries.

You have to put this information into context & not overreact to it. Like my main man AI says, "We're talkin' 'bout Practice!"

Ibar_Harry
08-11-2005, 04:03 PM
I was not impressed with Riley last night. He looks more suited to play guard, somewhat lead footed. Seemed out of breath alot. Once the ball was snapped he would make initial contact well, but after the second push he seemed to back pedal (overwhelmed) collapsing the pocket.
Wand looked somewhat better against the 2nd team defense. He held his own a lot longer than Riley did. But Riley was more dominant on the running plays than Wand was.
The sack against Carr on the first team remarkably didn't come from the left side, it came from the middle.



I'm one of those optomistic few that feels the O-line needs to gel. But if an indication on what I saw last night is going to be a sense for the season, then we are in trouble again.

Thanks, I appreciate your candor. Was McKinney playing center at the time? Many feel McKinney is as much a problem or more than Wand. To me its amazing the lack of adjustments you see with the O-line. They seem to think everything is alright, but as soon as we play anyone its obvious as hell that we have a big problem. I just hope they don't hide their heads in the sand. Up the middle has been a constant source of trouble. Carr has no pocket to retreat into, yet nothing changes. I just can't believe this is the best we have to offer.

SheTexan
08-11-2005, 07:53 PM
I have a quick TAKE on last nights scrimmage! It's real simple. The Texans play in the reg season like they played last night, it's gonna be a VERY LONG season!! The Broncs had a great time!! :mad:

HJam72
08-11-2005, 08:10 PM
They seem to think everything is alright, but as soon as we play anyone its obvious as hell that we have a big problem.

That's what I was afraid of. Just imagine how ticked everyone would get if the situation doesn't improve and they STILL don't draft an LT next year. I mean we're all expecting them too, but who knows...

I still believe this team will be better this year, even if the LT, TE, and center positions remain a problem, but how long is this going to go on? I know there are things Cass and Capers couldn't have foreseen, like the TE that's been hurt every preseason (can't even remember his name now-never seen the guy play a down). It just seems like they're stuck in a rut and I guess I'm venting.

Runner
08-11-2005, 09:13 PM
The sack against Carr on the first team remarkably didn't come from the left side, it came from the middle.



I don't know what is so remarkable about that - contrary to popular belief, the main problem last year was pressure up the middle. I paid close attention to the line play last year since it was a big issue, and that's my observation.

First of all the worst lineman isn't the left tackle, it's the center. If McKinney wasn't a popular local product we might see more activity there. The press seem to love him. Second, Weigert was hurt a lot so was playing at less than 100% and our back-up guards don't cut it. Was Weigert or someone else playing last night?

Wand "gave up" more sacks last year, but at least 4 of those came from Carr scrambling from pressure up the middle. When Carr would go past the end that Wand had engaged and under control the end would slide off and make the tackle. Wand couldn't see Carr coming on those plays because Carr was coming from behind him. Easy sack for the end caused by pressure up the middle.

That is what is frustrating to me. It looks like Wand is being scapegoated (at least by a lot of posters here if not the coaches) for all the problems with the line. From people who have watched the practices, Riley isn't as good as Wand so maybe this is just a ploy to fire Wand up. I don't know if that is effective with him; with a young player having him play with the first team and learn might be more effective then tearing down his confidence. Especially when he is better than the guy in front of him.

Also, if you look at other teams (like the Patriots) sometimes they'd have the center take on a defensive tackle and let the left guard and left tackle double team the defensive end - like Freeney at Indy. Our center doesn't allow us to use that scheme.

Deep breath - I feel better now.

Grid
08-11-2005, 09:52 PM
wow.. depressing thread. Things should be clearer on Saturday.

Grid
08-11-2005, 09:56 PM
BTW.. keep in mind that our coaches have a very odd way of doing things in preseason matchups.

Remember last year against the Steelers where their defense just ran all over us. We couldnt get a yard rushing.

It looked REALLY bad.. but it turns out.. we just had a set plan on what we were going to do.. and the steelers were doing something that tore that plan to peices. Instead of changing our plans, we just kept doing what we came to do.. and so it looked REALLY bad.. but it came out fine once the real games came along.

Vinny
08-11-2005, 10:03 PM
I don't know what is so remarkable about that - contrary to popular belief, the main problem last year was pressure up the middle. I paid close attention to the line play last year since it was a big issue, and that's my observation.

First of all the worst lineman isn't the left tackle, it's the center. If McKinney wasn't a popular local product we might see more activity there. The press seem to love him. Second, Weigert was hurt a lot so was playing at less than 100% and our back-up guards don't cut it. Was Weigert or someone else playing last night?

Wand "gave up" more sacks last year, but at least 4 of those came from Carr scrambling from pressure up the middle. When Carr would go past the end that Wand had engaged and under control the end would slide off and make the tackle. Wand couldn't see Carr coming on those plays because Carr was coming from behind him. Easy sack for the end caused by pressure up the middle.

That is what is frustrating to me. It looks like Wand is being scapegoated (at least by a lot of posters here if not the coaches) for all the problems with the line. From people who have watched the practices, Riley isn't as good as Wand so maybe this is just a ploy to fire Wand up. I don't know if that is effective with him; with a young player having him play with the first team and learn might be more effective then tearing down his confidence. Especially when he is better than the guy in front of him.

Also, if you look at other teams (like the Patriots) sometimes they'd have the center take on a defensive tackle and let the left guard and left tackle double team the defensive end - like Freeney at Indy. Our center doesn't allow us to use that scheme.

Deep breath - I feel better now.
Good post and astute observations...it's in line with much of what I posted here last year.

wags
08-12-2005, 03:07 AM
I don't know what is so remarkable about that - contrary to popular belief, the main problem last year was pressure up the middle. I paid close attention to the line play last year since it was a big issue, and that's my observation.

First of all the worst lineman isn't the left tackle, it's the center. If McKinney wasn't a popular local product we might see more activity there. The press seem to love him. Second, Weigert was hurt a lot so was playing at less than 100% and our back-up guards don't cut it. Was Weigert or someone else playing last night?

Wand "gave up" more sacks last year, but at least 4 of those came from Carr scrambling from pressure up the middle. When Carr would go past the end that Wand had engaged and under control the end would slide off and make the tackle. Wand couldn't see Carr coming on those plays because Carr was coming from behind him. Easy sack for the end caused by pressure up the middle.

That is what is frustrating to me. It looks like Wand is being scapegoated (at least by a lot of posters here if not the coaches) for all the problems with the line. From people who have watched the practices, Riley isn't as good as Wand so maybe this is just a ploy to fire Wand up. I don't know if that is effective with him; with a young player having him play with the first team and learn might be more effective then tearing down his confidence. Especially when he is better than the guy in front of him.

Also, if you look at other teams (like the Patriots) sometimes they'd have the center take on a defensive tackle and let the left guard and left tackle double team the defensive end - like Freeney at Indy. Our center doesn't allow us to use that scheme.

Deep breath - I feel better now.


Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).

beerlover
08-12-2005, 03:17 AM
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).

He doesn't have to because the front office follows these boards daily :bomb:

for whatever the reason the Texans have been demolished by nagging injurys on both lines. lets wait and see one more year when they are actually healthy. if Riley works out he will be an absolute steal. Wade played hurt, while all three Pitts, McKinney & Weigert had issues that negated their strengths. same can be said for Payne & Walker.

this will be the make or break year, make no mistake about it :goodnight

HJam72
08-12-2005, 04:42 AM
He doesn't have to because the front office follows these boards daily :bomb:



You mean they read all my *****ic crap!!! :wacko:

Runner
08-12-2005, 06:25 AM
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).

Excellent rebuttal. Very well thought out.

A few questions:

Do you only post the company line?

Do you truly believe replacing Wand will fix all the OL problems?

Has an NFL front office/coaching staff ever made a mistake?

If we're so desparate, why haven't we picked up Verba?

Feel free to use more than two sentences to answer these questions.

infantrycak
08-12-2005, 07:20 AM
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).

Remind me again of all the FA centers (that would have been significant upgrades) who were available that the Texans' made no moves on this off-season?

Runner
08-12-2005, 08:08 AM
Remind me again of all the FA centers (that would have been significant upgrades) who were available that the Texans' made no moves on this off-season?

I don't know if there were any. My point is that Wand is being unfairly blamed for problems that aren't his.

I personnaly think we should give last year's line a chance this year with the new offense and some seasoning.

I understand that building the team is a zero sum game - if we spend a bunch on one area that limits the rest. That is why I didn't like the Pace trade - 10s of millions of dollars and 2 first rounders for 4-6 fewer sacks? I don't think so.

Here's how I'd rate the Texan off-season:

Defensive Line - Improved long and short term.
Linebackers - Improved (but that remains to be proven)
Defensive Backs - same or a little better now but definitely improved over the long term

Offensive Line - Same
QB - same but with an improved Ragone
Running Backs - more depth
TE - Same
Wide Receivers - improved and lots of depth

Special Teams - better returners

So I think as a team we've improved and not regressed in any area. Yes it would have been nice to fix the OL and TE too, but then we'd be complaining about other areas. For instance I don't think we'd be happy with the D-line without the Travis Johnson addition.

So I think the front office has done pretty well with the resources available. If they can improve just two areas next off-season we'll have a pretty well built team.

infantrycak
08-12-2005, 08:44 AM
I don't know if there were any. My point is that Wand is being unfairly blamed for problems that aren't his.

I happen to agree with you. Wags however was postulating that since we didn't hear about them trying to get a C that the Texans disagree with us. I was therefore asking Wags to remind me of the prominent centers who were available as FA's that the Texans wilfully passed on thus proving his point.

Runner
08-12-2005, 08:52 AM
I happen to agree with you. Wags however was postulating that since we didn't hear about them trying to get a C that the Texans disagree with us. I was therefore asking Wags to remind me of the prominent centers who were available as FA's that the Texans wilfully passed on thus proving his point.

Oh.

Let me get another cup of coffee and I'll be a little more alert.

edo783
08-12-2005, 10:41 AM
The starting center for the Ravens was available as was Mike Wahl from the Packers for a good gaurd. Both were highly rated. IMO, we should have made a run at them to shore up the middle of the line which I believe to be the real problem. However, I doubt we could have secured both without damaging our cap. Of course we could have dumped McKinny and Wiegert to save money. The issue then is continuty and ability to work well together this year, but I think it would have paid offbig time next year. JMO.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
08-12-2005, 10:54 AM
Casey Rabach is no better than McKinney. He is stuggling in Washington and looked terrible against the Ravens in their scrimmage. The only reason he started for the Ravens was because Mike Flynn, the Ravens real starting center, was injured in preseason.

BroncoMan13
08-12-2005, 11:58 AM
You guys obviously pay closer attention to your line than I do but it stands to reason that the middle of your line is a little soft in pass protection. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Texans use a zone blocking scheme, similar to what the Broncos use. The OL is full of players that are more athlete than beast. Athleticsm is more important b/c they have to do two things. Get around a defender and block down hill and then get to the 2nd level and pick up a LB or DB. You've been having success in the running game from a grand total production standpoint. You struggle in short yardage situations with the running game though, which is another by-product of the smaller O-line. I guess what I'm trying to say is you will continue to have problems with both pass protection and short yardage running. That is why Shanny has become known as the mastermind. His innovative passing game allows us to utilize the smaller more athletic lineman and still remain productive and secure. By secure I mean offsetting the pressure. I believe Plummer was sacked 17 times last year. Two teams I believe had less sacks. If we were to ask Plummer to sit in a pocket every passing play I'd venture to say that # would be up in the 40s easily! To sum this up, you have to be a little more inovative with your plays. If Palmer were to install a few more bootlegs that alone would slow the pass rush. Carr has the ability to move outside the hashes and typically it's easier for a QB to make a decision out there b/c he can throw it away without penalty b/c he's outside the OT. Anyhow, I'm rambling on and on. Just wanted you guys to know that you do have a good OL they're just not being utilized properly in the passing game and don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.


I'm not saying this is for the sure the reason of you struggles as I'm not real sure what your C and OG's size is but I'm guessing they're probably real close to be 300 lbs at best. Hope it works out for you all!

texasguy346
08-12-2005, 12:09 PM
Of course we could have dumped McKinny and Wiegert to save money. The issue then is continuty and ability to work well together this year, but I think it would have paid offbig time next year. JMO.

I think Wiegert, when healthy, is one of our better linemen. I really like where we are at both our guard spots. Pitts looks pretty solid at LG, and he should be there for years to come. Wiegert does a very good job at RG when he's healthy, and he and Wade are very good run blockers. I wouldn't mind seeing better quality depth, or perhaps even picking up a talented young G next year from the draft as opposed to picking up an aging overpriced veteran FA guard. McKinney definately needs to be replaced, but I doubt the rookie Hodgdon will be ready to seriously compete for a starting spot this season. Hopefully a year in the Texans training program will be enough to get him ready to compete for the spot next year.

edo783
08-12-2005, 12:20 PM
I think Wiegert is 31 or 32 years old and while he is good, he is broken most of the time. Wahle I think is only 26 or 27 and no history of injury. Just seems like a better, longer term option to me.

texasguy346
08-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Guess that's where we differ. I feel that Wiegert can still be a good player for us at RG for a few more seasons and provide us time to find a young guy in the draft to replace him at a cheaper price. I believe Pitts is still under his rookie contract (somewhere over 2.6 million dollars total for the 4 year deal), and he's been an excellent value for the money. I imagine the Texans will be redoing his deal sometime soon, and if they pay him well they might be looking for a good value at the other guard spot. JMO of course.

aj.
08-12-2005, 12:48 PM
Wiegert turns 33 on Tuesday. He's still good but by next season they need to start preparing for the future. In fact, they need to start now. I haven't been all that impressed with #79 Chad Beasley who is running second team behind Wiegert and has been filling in for him on first team since Wiegert's been hurt. Wiegert has played in 28 out of a possible 32 games for the Texans so it's not like he's been an injury liability.

Chester Pitts is on pace to be eligible for UFA after this season.

Runner
08-12-2005, 12:55 PM
You guys obviously pay closer attention to your line than I do but it stands to reason that the middle of your line is a little soft in pass protection. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Texans use a zone blocking scheme, similar to what the Broncos use. The OL is full of players that are more athlete than beast. Athleticsm is more important b/c they have to do two things. Get around a defender and block down hill and then get to the 2nd level and pick up a LB or DB. You've been having success in the running game from a grand total production standpoint. You struggle in short yardage situations with the running game though, which is another by-product of the smaller O-line. I guess what I'm trying to say is you will continue to have problems with both pass protection and short yardage running. That is why Shanny has become known as the mastermind. His innovative passing game allows us to utilize the smaller more athletic lineman and still remain productive and secure. By secure I mean offsetting the pressure. I believe Plummer was sacked 17 times last year. Two teams I believe had less sacks. If we were to ask Plummer to sit in a pocket every passing play I'd venture to say that # would be up in the 40s easily! To sum this up, you have to be a little more inovative with your plays. If Palmer were to install a few more bootlegs that alone would slow the pass rush. Carr has the ability to move outside the hashes and typically it's easier for a QB to make a decision out there b/c he can throw it away without penalty b/c he's outside the OT. Anyhow, I'm rambling on and on. Just wanted you guys to know that you do have a good OL they're just not being utilized properly in the passing game and don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.


I'm not saying this is for the sure the reason of you struggles as I'm not real sure what your C and OG's size is but I'm guessing they're probably real close to be 300 lbs at best. Hope it works out for you all!

Interesting stuff. Thanks for joining in.

aj.
08-12-2005, 01:10 PM
don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.

Domanick Davis had a 5.7 avg. (15 carries for 85 yards) last season on 3rd down and 2 or less.

Take away the one that went for 23 yards and his average would have still been 4.4.

F-minus67
08-12-2005, 01:42 PM
Another reason why Plummer is sacked less is that he is a great scrambler. While Carr is good at running, he doesn't have that pocket awarness that Plummer has either.

BornOrange
08-12-2005, 01:58 PM
The Texans are more like the Ravens in that they use a zone blocking scheme with larger linemen while the Broncos use smaller linemen.

BroncoMan13
08-12-2005, 02:17 PM
Could be, but normally when you use the zone blocking scheme for your run game you have a QB utilize the rollouts to help keep the pass rush to a minimum... same thing is happening in Atlanta. They have a bunch of no name OLinemen but they get the job done in the passing game b/c Vick can rollout and any minute and it forces them to contain first and pass rush second. Carr can do the same thing. Naturally he isn't as much of a threat as Vick, but I don't think Carr and Jake Plummer are all that different in terms of athleticsm. The rollout has to be called every now and again... force the defense to maintain containment first and pass rush second and you have bought yourself another .5-1.0 seconds! Just makes sense if you ask me.

wags
08-12-2005, 05:59 PM
Excellent rebuttal. Very well thought out.

A few questions:

Do you only post the company line?

Do you truly believe replacing Wand will fix all the OL problems?

Has an NFL front office/coaching staff ever made a mistake?

If we're so desparate, why haven't we picked up Verba?

Feel free to use more than two sentences to answer these questions.

Sorry to get you in a tissy.

A few answers:

No, I post my opinion.

Just replacing Wand won't magically fix the O-line. I wanted two players from this past draft class, Thomas Davis and David Baas. I would have loved to have Baas take over at LG and then slide Pitts back to Left Tackle. Pitts was a decent performer his second year and certainly would be an upgrade over Wand IMO. Baas would be an upgrade at LG over Pitts IMO. The great thing about Baas is that he has experience at center as well, so he could play multiple positions at a high level.

FO's make plenty of mistakes.

We haven't signed Verba because he thinks he's worth more than what we grade him at.


Cak, I think I answered your question in this post.

Runner
08-12-2005, 06:21 PM
Much better reply. I knew you could do it!

That was a joke.

I like to see these other opinions rather than sarcastic replies though. That's what I like about this board.

TEXANS84
08-20-2005, 03:39 PM
Interesting note:

Predictably, practices were more intense than the garden variety Napa workout. Wide receiver Doug Gabriel scuffled briefly with cornerback DeMarcus Faggins, and Tyler Brayton flattened Andre Johnson unnecessarily out of bounds. But there were no out-and-out fights.

Full Link: HERE (http://www.ibabuzz.com/raidersblog/)