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View Full Version : Why do some dislike Carr?


thetexanator
07-31-2005, 12:58 AM
ok guys, im one of those that doesnt give Carr a lot of credit. Im trying to figure out why this guy rubs me the wrong way and i think its because he hasnt lived up to my expectations. The way he blew up at fresno his senior season i guess i was expecting a lot more than what hes shown. Yeah i know he was with an expansion team but i hate seeing him rely on the drop off pass so much. This guy has a rocket for an arm and is making the passes that tony banks can make. Usually when he throws the ball he completes it, but he should be farther along in his reads than just throwing to dd. And for all the "its the lines fault" i agree with you to a certain extent but i also think it also has a lot t do with his reads. I think hes got a long way to go and i hope he can put up some 20tds and 13ints this year. I guess i just keep waiting for this guy to have a break out season and i cant see it in the near future. What do u guys think?

Ibar_Harry
07-31-2005, 01:55 AM
Having watched Carr in Fresno I think I can offer a little insight despite what Vinny things. Carr had a receiver to throw to who made a lot of things happen. His name was Bernard Berrian. Berrian was a very gifted receiver. He had hands and was a burner once he got the ball. Carr threw a lot of short balls in his senior year that were turned into big gains. He had a left tackle by the name of Mankins along with the rest of the O-line which gave him time to do his thing. Carr has not had a receiver like Berrian while at Houston nor an O-line that protected him like the Mankins lead line. Berrian and Carr were always on the same page as they worked out together during the summer. AJ is a great physical talent, but he does not have the hands of Berrian nor does he seem to hang around in the offseason and work out with Carr. Does he know how to get open like Berrian did? I'm referring to the NFL vs the College level and I understand that. Berrian was injured in Berrian's senior year and he simply didn't return to his old form. I don't believe David has the confidence in AJ that he had in Berrian. The fact that he goes to Davis as often as he does may be a hands thing. Fresno State was called WRU for awhile, because of the number of people we produced. Most were excellent route runners with very good to excellent hands. The person I look to who may make Carr a different QB is Mathis. He's a faster version of Berrian. He can go get the ball and he has the hands to catch it. Remember Carr is like Elway in that he throws a very hard ball that requires hands to catch it. He can throw a very long ball, but it tends to be on a flater arch. There is a lot more variance in that kind of throw and requires a receiver who can put on the after burners if need be or slow down if need be. It requires someone who knows where he is going before the ball is thrown, because the ball will be thrown often before the break is made. Our QB's do not have the luxury of waiting for the receiver to get open. The QB's are throwing to a spot on the long ball. I suspect David has been instructed to not try and force the ball based on Dom's hatred of the turn over. Remember, if David throws a laser to a receiver, and it bounces, its likely to be intercepted. Most of our receivers have not been know for their ability to catch the ball, even AJ, in the beginning. I still question AJ's hands, but they are certainly a lot better than when he entered the league. He has good to very good hands, but not excellent hands. Carr is a talent, but he had a lot of talent around him when he was at Fresno. He was also a very mature young man for his age in college. The summer prior to his senior year he worked out endlessly with a man by the name of Trent Dilfer. Trent Dilfer who was at that point coming off of a SB win and had lost his job. He just wanted to work out with someone while waiting for a call. To this day Trent and David are very close friends. If you look at Elway in his early years you will see a lot of similarities between he and Carr. Elway threw the hard ball and had a lot of deflected interceptions. In his later years he began to add more touch and became a better QB. Elway, however, had the luxury of being allowed to force the ball. It was a given that he would be intercepted sometimes, but they thought they were better off in the long run. I don't believe that is the case in Houston.

ledzeppelin229
07-31-2005, 04:31 AM
I don't think hands is the problem. Houston's receivers consistently rate near the top of the league in dropped pass %. Not to mention just watching the games, they typically have caught everything thrown their way with a few exceptions of course.

The fact that he goes to Davis so much seems to be a coaching thing rather than a confidence thing. Capers likes to control the clock and throwing to Davis for 5 yards is just as good as a 5 yard run when it comes to the bottom-line.

You really need to quit making the glory days of Fresno State your standard for how the Texans perform. It's different players and a far different talent level.

ArlingtonTexan
07-31-2005, 10:26 AM
I was going to reply in detail, but it is too early in the morning. Just stop with great Fresno State talent. Good college players, none of which has accomplished what Corey Bradford has in the pros. We are talking the NFL. Playing with and against NFL players. What was at Fresno State matters not.

And Tom Brady does NOT have great WRs or a dominate OL.

TopTexanFan16
07-31-2005, 11:03 AM
Having watched Carr in Fresno I think I can offer a little insight despite what Vinny things. Carr had a receiver to throw to who made a lot of things happen. His name was Bernard Berrian. Berrian was a very gifted receiver. He had hands and was a burner once he got the ball. Carr threw a lot of short balls in his senior year that were turned into big gains. He had a left tackle by the name of Mankins along with the rest of the O-line which gave him time to do his thing. Carr has not had a receiver like Berrian while at Houston nor an O-line that protected him like the Mankins lead line. Berrian and Carr were always on the same page as they worked out together during the summer. AJ is a great physical talent, but he does not have the hands of Berrian nor does he seem to hang around in the offseason and work out with Carr. Does he know how to get open like Berrian did? I'm referring to the NFL vs the College level and I understand that. Berrian was injured in Berrian's senior year and he simply didn't return to his old form. I don't believe David has the confidence in AJ that he had in Berrian. The fact that he goes to Davis as often as he does may be a hands thing. Fresno State was called WRU for awhile, because of the number of people we produced. Most were excellent route runners with very good to excellent hands. The person I look to who may make Carr a different QB is Mathis. He's a faster version of Berrian. He can go get the ball and he has the hands to catch it. Remember Carr is like Elway in that he throws a very hard ball that requires hands to catch it. He can throw a very long ball, but it tends to be on a flater arch. There is a lot more variance in that kind of throw and requires a receiver who can put on the after burners if need be or slow down if need be. It requires someone who knows where he is going before the ball is thrown, because the ball will be thrown often before the break is made. Our QB's do not have the luxury of waiting for the receiver to get open. The QB's are throwing to a spot on the long ball. I suspect David has been instructed to not try and force the ball based on Dom's hatred of the turn over. Remember, if David throws a laser to a receiver, and it bounces, its likely to be intercepted. Most of our receivers have not been know for their ability to catch the ball, even AJ, in the beginning. I still question AJ's hands, but they are certainly a lot better than when he entered the league. He has good to very good hands, but not excellent hands. Carr is a talent, but he had a lot of talent around him when he was at Fresno. He was also a very mature young man for his age in college. The summer prior to his senior year he worked out endlessly with a man by the name of Trent Dilfer. Trent Dilfer who was at that point coming off of a SB win and had lost his job. He just wanted to work out with someone while waiting for a call. To this day Trent and David are very close friends. If you look at Elway in his early years you will see a lot of similarities between he and Carr. Elway threw the hard ball and had a lot of deflected interceptions. In his later years he began to add more touch and became a better QB. Elway, however, had the luxury of being allowed to force the ball. It was a given that he would be intercepted sometimes, but they thought they were better off in the long run. I don't believe that is the case in Houston.

Ibar......where in the world did you get mathis having great hands or even better hands than AJ? besides the point AJ catches almost everything thrown his way, so he had 10 or 12 drops this season but was thrown to 79 times. Mathis may have good hands in the future but he is still very raw talent.

thegr8fan
07-31-2005, 11:50 AM
first off, I don't dislike Carr. He doesn't rub me in the wrong way, even slightly, on a personal level. I think he is a very upstanding and rightous person and family guy. An outstanding role model for what every young man should be doing with their lives. And an all around nice guy.

There are some things that he does, or doesn't do on the field that drive me absolutely insane during the game. But there is a distinct difference between his personal and professional life and my attitude towards him for that. When fans take things too far like last year and throw beer on his wife and child, that is outragous and unconscionable. And I would have been the first one in line to kick that guys butt and teach him some manner's had I been there at the time.

I have been a Carr critiquer for quite some time on this board. And I am also the first to point out that this is a team sport so not all the blame for losing a game goes on Carr's shoulders, IMHO.

It is just now training camp time. I hope that Carr's does what he has done every year and trains on some area's that he needs to improve on. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he does just that. This is the year when alot of QB's seem to 'get it' and I think Carr will be one of those. Call me a 'homer' or optimist, but I will give Carr time to show me THIS season that he has improved and is capable of taking us to a playoff game before I start 'dogging' the guy before the first pre-season game even.

Football season is just now started and already the bashing is beginning. Unbelievable :brickwall

Big B Texan Fan
07-31-2005, 12:04 PM
Let's wait until about week 8 and then restart this thread. This new season has a different feel to it. Kinda like some great things are gonna happen for the team abroad, including Carr.

aj.
07-31-2005, 12:08 PM
As for my 61 yr old butt... not to worry it doesn't work as well as it looks.

A little more than we needed to know there caddy

I'll say one thing about Carr. He's in the process of getting a bigtime contract extension so he needs to step it up as much or more than anyone else.

Wolf
07-31-2005, 12:42 PM
All I can ask for is for Carr to improve on his weaknesses. Sack total is a little misleading, many times in his 1st season Carr would run out of bounds behind the line of scrimage instead of just flicking the ball to the consession stand when he got out of the tackle box. Carr has improved on that and will flick the ball out of bounds now. IMO Carr has to learn to read defenses faster. First season (and rightfully so) Billy Miller was his target and Carr used him like a rented mule. AJ comes along and so does DD.. now our TE's don't get involved and it is the AJ and DD show.. Carrs seems to lock on to those two.. One thing about the good QB's in the history of the league.. they knew how to spread the ball around. As of now teams know this: Double AJ and let Carr through to DD.. and like someone said DD is going to get you 5 yards that is it.. AJ can take a 5 yarder and go 80 .. DD isn't going to do that.

Like I said, all I can ask for is Carr to improve, we are getting talent around him and Rome wasn't built in a day.

Lucky
07-31-2005, 12:59 PM
...Mathis may have good hands in the future but he is still very raw talent.
I don't know if IBar is on to something (or on something j/k), but last night Mathis looked better as a receiver than I thought he would. He showed pretty good hands, seemed to make his cuts sharp, didn't get tied up on the line. It was only one practice, but I have to say that I was impressed. Mathis lined up at 3 different positions in 7 on 7 & I think made receptions from each spot. He may be ready to play much sooner than I thought he could be. My impression of Mathis as a NFL punt returner...I don't think so.

Now back to the bi-weekly David Carr thread...

edo783
07-31-2005, 01:28 PM
Good news on Mathis, thanks for the info. Actually, I look for Carr to regress a bit at the start of the season as he gets used to the quick toss/timing patterns. I think that is what the writter was saying, that he wasn't hitting them well. If he isn't on the same page with the recievers by game 4....then Houston, we may have a problem IMO.

Dime
07-31-2005, 06:47 PM
Football season is just now started and already the bashing is beginning. Unbelievable :brickwall

No... what is Unbelievable is when someone starts a post asking questions and tending to see a few problem areas that a player needs to work on. All the sudden, its bashing people. Why can people make small negitive comments around here from things they see and are concerned about concerning any player before people start taking it poorly, and yelling 'troll'. Bashing is coming and starting the fire threads (my oponion) or majorly insulting them. Any one should be able to post this oponion without earning a bash badge.

Now, concerning Carr. From me. From 0-5 yards, Carr is awesome on his reads and pretty accurate on his throws. He has 1-2 bad ones from that range, but far more awesome ones then bad ones. I think his problem is from 5-25 yards myself. He for some reason either doesnt lead it properly forcing the reciever to reach back more then normal, or leads it too much. I see more of the 'thrown behind' throws here, mainly on crossing routes. He has majorly improved his 'touch' on the ball, and he is a boss when it comes to scrambling (with the oline last year, he had to become good at it). Personally, I think David would be better if we brought in a vetern (other than Banks) to learn from. Not that I wouldnt start him, but learning from a chris chandler or another oldie I think would help him with his other passes. Carr has come a long way, but he has a few more steps to take. I seriously believe Carr would be even better then he is right now, if he had a o-line to protect him, probably even a top 10 qb.

BuffSoldier
07-31-2005, 07:18 PM
What a lot of posters fail to realize si the mental side of Carr rather than the physical talent. Im not a psyciotrist or anything but you guys have to realize that Carr was a QB picked 1st overall by an expansion team and thrown in as a starter right off the bat. His franchise LT never got to play a snap and he is expected to put a brand new team on his shoulders and take them to the playoffs within 4 years. OK, Carr definitely has the tools, we all have seen that. When he has time to step back in the pocket and deliver, he can make great tight throws with that rocket of an arm he has.

But Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie year. What would that do to any QB as a rookie? Not to mention that it hasnt really gotten that much better over the past 2 seasons. Carr is rattled, and this isnt a mature QB thing, its a natural instincs thing. Carr does not have the faith in his O-line to set back and believe that they will hold up long enough for him to make his reads and choose a good target, so he looks form AJ to DD. I remember early last season, Carr was leading the AFC in passing yards like after the first 3 or 4 games, but he had good protectin, but as the season progressed and the protection got worse( i dont know why) Carr got reasonably frustrated EXAMPLE, the jacksonville game where he threw his helmet and the Browns game wher he kept running for his life and yelling at the o- line. Before a QB can start being a franchise QB he has to have faith in the system and faith in his O-line to hold the pass rush, I dont think he has either, because every year our offense is makeing some change to help slow the pass rush, and every year we still arent respectable. Carr just needs a few games guys thats all. If he can have 2 or 3 games of solid protection, I think we will see a superstar in the makeing come out of DC.

Dime
07-31-2005, 07:52 PM
What a lot of posters fail to realize si the mental side of Carr rather than the physical talent. Im not a psyciotrist or anything but you guys have to realize that Carr was a QB picked 1st overall by an expansion team and thrown in as a starter right off the bat. His franchise LT never got to play a snap and he is expected to put a brand new team on his shoulders and take them to the playoffs within 4 years. OK, Carr definitely has the tools, we all have seen that. When he has time to step back in the pocket and deliver, he can make great tight throws with that rocket of an arm he has.

But Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie year. What would that do to any QB as a rookie? Not to mention that it hasnt really gotten that much better over the past 2 seasons. Carr is rattled, and this isnt a mature QB thing, its a natural instincs thing. Carr does not have the faith in his O-line to set back and believe that they will hold up long enough for him to make his reads and choose a good target, so he looks form AJ to DD. I remember early last season, Carr was leading the AFC in passing yards like after the first 3 or 4 games, but he had good protectin, but as the season progressed and the protection got worse( i dont know why) Carr got reasonably frustrated EXAMPLE, the jacksonville game where he threw his helmet and the Browns game wher he kept running for his life and yelling at the o- line. Before a QB can start being a franchise QB he has to have faith in the system and faith in his O-line to hold the pass rush, I dont think he has either, because every year our offense is makeing some change to help slow the pass rush, and every year we still arent respectable. Carr just needs a few games guys thats all. If he can have 2 or 3 games of solid protection, I think we will see a superstar in the makeing come out of DC.

You are very right.

tsip
07-31-2005, 10:37 PM
"If he can have 2 or 3 games of solid protection, I think we will see a superstar in the makeing come out of DC."

OK, my calendar is marked.....

SEXY TEXAN BaBy8
08-01-2005, 12:02 AM
He makes me drool. Hes soo hott. Im sure you hott little cowboys would agree with me. :drool:

FILO_girl
08-01-2005, 09:28 AM
ok guys, im one of those that doesnt give Carr a lot of credit. Im trying to figure out why this guy rubs me the wrong way and i think its because he hasnt lived up to my expectations. The way he blew up at fresno his senior season i guess i was expecting a lot more than what hes shown. Yeah i know he was with an expansion team but i hate seeing him rely on the drop off pass so much. This guy has a rocket for an arm and is making the passes that tony banks can make. Usually when he throws the ball he completes it, but he should be farther along in his reads than just throwing to dd. And for all the "its the lines fault" i agree with you to a certain extent but i also think it also has a lot t do with his reads. I think hes got a long way to go and i hope he can put up some 20tds and 13ints this year. I guess i just keep waiting for this guy to have a break out season and i cant see it in the near future. What do u guys think?

It is kind of hard to be brilliant with NO protection.

TPIMP
08-01-2005, 09:43 AM
Give Carr time and Pro Bowls will follow!

Demon
08-01-2005, 01:47 PM
Time! This is the season that Carr will show improvement. I don't think he will let us down. The team's O-line must help him, as well as the receivers. I'm positive on David Carr. :cool:

Johnson_4_7
08-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Carr is going to be fine.... it is amazing what he has done considering the offensive line he has had to work with his entire career.

Dime
08-01-2005, 04:20 PM
Here is the question of the day though. Would you (if you were david), who have been getting hammered for the last 3 years by a poor o-line, and his wife has been spit/spilled upon want to re-sign here? He could go ANYWHERE in this league (who has a decent o-line) and sign for big money there too. My prediction. :embarrass: Sorry folks, but just what I would do, even though I love my Texans, IF I got nailed by ANOTHER 50+ sack this year. I would bail next year. Reasons, I am getting beat up badly early (reduces his wear in the future, I could sign elsewhere Easily for probably a larger contract, and I would have a O-line - since they havent made ANY decent changes in personel to protect me this year). :crying: Plus, any teams fans stupid enough to spit/spill upon a person wife dont deserve me. I much as I think we could be a huge force to reckon with this year, We are going to lose a important member because of not protecting him. :brickwall:

Vinny
08-01-2005, 04:31 PM
Carr isn't a free agent.

Dime
08-01-2005, 04:39 PM
Carr isn't a free agent.
Oh.... I guess I dont know how it works. I thought this year or next, he was on extension of some sort where he could drop out of the contract if he desired. I will admit I dont know much about how that works. Can you please enlighting.

U4ikrob
08-01-2005, 04:52 PM
No... what is Unbelievable is when someone starts a post asking questions and tending to see a few problem areas that a player needs to work on. All the sudden, its bashing people. Why can people make small negitive comments around here from things they see and are concerned about concerning any player before people start taking it poorly, and yelling 'troll'. Bashing is coming and starting the fire threads (my oponion) or majorly insulting them. Any one should be able to post this oponion without earning a bash badge.

RANT On Dime man!

Couldnt agree more Dime - How about being a fan without the "Flame' to back up your point folks? How about we let just the football talk be football talk and we leave the sniping and backbiting comments for other boards? :dangit: Pointed this one out the other day on another thread - To me it's downright disgusting how rude and insensitive and disrespectful some people on this board are - and IMO there is no reason to be that way yet some people feel they cant "Express Themselves" any other way which to me is an even bigger shame.

Yet hop over to the Tailgate section and it's like a Night and Day switch gets flipped - All of the respectful - party folks who enjoy the games and talk all together and party and have fun.

I think I know where a majority of my time will be spent on the boards from now on - The folks over in the tailgating section!! :highfive:

Back to the TOPIC of FOOTBALL: Carr's coaching and progression has been a little more mechanical than I would have liked to have seen. He was a prolific passer in college - I would really like to see the offense utilize more of that this year and help him get back to that palce where he can use his arm and intellect alot more to beat teams this year with.

'This year the kid gloves come off - for everybody - Everyone will be scrutinized fro mthe Front office to every player on the field'

It's contract year for more than one person on this team and could be the end of the line for players like Hollings, Joppru, Symons, and others if they dont represent this year better than any other before. Joppru is allready back on the IR - so he's out and we will see if the staff gives him a 4th chance on the roster next year or if he is cut outright for being PuP. David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come. I for one hope Carr lights a fire under the team and leads em to a great year ahead.

Dime
08-01-2005, 05:04 PM
RANT On Dime man!

Couldnt agree more Dime - How about being a fan without the "Flame' to back up your point folks? How about we let just the football talk be football talk and we leave the sniping and backbiting comments for other boards? :dangit: Pointed this one out the other day on another thread - To me it's downright disgusting how rude and insensitive and disrespectful some people on this board are - and IMO there is no reason to be that way yet some people feel they cant "Express Themselves" any other way which to me is an even bigger shame.

Yet hop over to the Tailgate section and it's like a Night and DAy switch gets flipped - All of the respectful - party folks who enjoy the games and talk all together and party and have fun.

I think I know where a majority of my time will be spent on the boards from now on - The folks over here in the tailgating section!! :highfive:

Back to the TOPIC of FOOTBALL: Carr's progression has been a little more methodical than I personally would have liked, but has made decent progress up till now. But as I stated in other threads and also seems is repeated by several other major news sources now - whom all seem to agree with the point

'This year the kid gloves come off - for everybody - Everyone will be scrutinized fro mthe Front office to every player on the field'

It's contract year for more than one person on this team and could be the end of the line for players like Hollings, Joppru, Symons, and others if they dont represent this year better than any other before. David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come. I for one hope Carr lights a fire under the team and leads em to a great year ahead.

Hehehe.. people are nice in the tailgate board because if they were rude there, they might get thier behind kicked one day :ouch: (kidding, only kidding)

Buzz
08-01-2005, 06:46 PM
He's in the process of getting a bigtime contract extension so he needs to step it up as much or more than anyone else.

David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come.

That's why I think even though his O-line will probably be average (although I really hope it's better than that), he will put up good numbers. He has to be giving extra effort trying to show what he can be capable of, whether he wants to stay here or be playing for someone else. He has to grab people's attention.

Vinny
08-01-2005, 07:01 PM
Oh.... I guess I dont know how it works. I thought this year or next, he was on extension of some sort where he could drop out of the contract if he desired. I will admit I dont know much about how that works. Can you please enlighting.Carr is pretty much tied up till 2008. I can't see a scenario where the Texans don't pick up his option and that is the only way he can get out before 2008.

U4ikrob
08-02-2005, 07:15 AM
Carr is pretty much tied up till 2008. I can't see a scenario where the Texans don't pick up his option and that is the only way he can get out before 2008.

I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too. His career is only so long in the league and every year of that kind of beating is just taking more and more time off his play clock IMO.

I'm not so sure that is the "Only" scenario Carr could get out of his contract with. Realistically there are not many options if he wants out, but there are a few. Any player can "Refuse" to play to the terms of the contract and be fired for non performance. He can be released as well as the contract can be voided at any time by the employer and paid out. There are also buyout clauses on the players side too in a lot of deals. I dont have David's contract in front of me, but I would be willing to bet there is defintly terms in there for some of these thigns to be covered in case of eventualities on either side. It's funny how terms of a contract work when you want out of a deal. My info tells me he can also be traded as an RFA just like Edge and Henry and Alexander were trying to do this year. When he becomes an RFA, I'm fully expecting the Texans to put up a pretty close to MAX dollar contract figure to keep him here. But as a player he always has the right to refuse the deal and not re-sign here and request to be traded as an RFA. The team can refuse to trade him of course, but then he would most likely sit/wait it out and become a UFA in 08 and go anywhere he wants.

Dime
08-02-2005, 08:09 AM
I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too. His career is only so long in the league and every year of that kind of beating is just taking more and more time off his play clock IMO.

I'm not so sure that is the "Only" scenario Carr could get out of his contract with. Realistically there are not many options if he wants out, but there are a few. Any player can "Refuse" to play to the terms of the contract and be fired for non performance. He can be released as well as the contract can be voided at any time by the employer and paid out. There are also buyout clauses on the players side too in a lot of deals. I dont have David's contract in front of me, but I would be willing to bet there is defintly terms in there for some of these thigns to be covered in case of eventualities on either side. It's funny how terms of a contract work when you want out of a deal. My info tells me he can also be traded as an RFA just like Edge and Henry and Alexander were trying to do this year. When he becomes an RFA, I'm fully expecting the Texans to put up a pretty close to MAX dollar contract figure to keep him here. But as a player he always has the right to refuse the deal and not re-sign here and request to be traded as an RFA. The team can refuse to trade him of course, but then he would most likely sit/wait it out and become a UFA in 08 and go anywhere he wants.

Last year, one of the questions I remember him answering was 'they had better draft me a o-lineman' when he was asked what he wanted in the draft. Of course, they didnt. If he end up on his backside in sacks this year again in the 50+ range, or worse, hurt from a sack. I can see him (I would from my personal health) not wanting to play here. promises have been made for the last 2 years to get better.. year before last, it was. Last year it got worse. If it gets even worse, oh... I dont want to think about it.

U4ikrob
08-02-2005, 08:48 AM
Well technically speaking they did draft him an O-line guy this year in the center Hogden, but most likely wont see much PT this year as he's still to green to man the middle yet. I'm hoping when I get out to TC this week and over the next few weeks to see some better results on the Practice field from the line. I feel they should have most of the line changes and the final roster pretty much settled for the Offense and Defense by the Dallas game. I will be attending that game up in big D with my Aunt & uncle and will give a full team and squad ranking/review afterwards

More on the fight in TC : TJ must have a great sense of humor. After reading the blurb above I got an impression of him being a rookie pain in camp. But after reading more of the article I think him and Brown were just having some good competitive fun and joking around. I hope it sparks good competition on both the O & D lines this year. Good to see him getting the rookie biz from the vets and taking it like a man too. :cool:


more from "Fists of Fury" in the chronicle - Travis Johnson on the fight in TC:

"It's just getting hot out here, and you know how fat guys are," Johnson said laughing. [Brown] "He was telling me something about how he was going to take my last piece of chicken."

Carr Bombed
08-02-2005, 10:37 AM
I don't think David's going anywhere. He has already relocated his entire family here and likes it here. Also if Seth Wand doesn't prove himself this year than we will draft our Franchise LT in next years draft, which is very deep at that position. I also expect next years draft to be very offensive sided seeing how we don't need to many more pieces on defense. I could see us taking a LT, WR (if no one steps up and claims the #2 spot), and a TE, all early in next years draft.

U4ikrob
08-02-2005, 12:04 PM
Just some thoughts off the top -

I would agree C-Bomb - I dont "Think" David will be going anywhere next year either. DC, his wife and son have been here for almost 4 years now and have established some roots for sure. But just like with this years shuffle of players - the message got sent to everyone that this is a business too. David still has to think about himself when it comes to the business aspect of the league too and if he would not be better off signing with another team and providing for his family in the future in case he does get injured. Hypothetically speaking only - If the Texans were to offer David a 5 year max dollar contract and another team stepped up with a 7-year deal for more money than the texans were willing to match - which choice would you pick?

The business side cant be ignored here.

Houston has to realize the teams little improvement on upgrading the line this year once again sends a message to David and his wife too.

Worst case scenario - That means thinking of another year of possibly having to stare at a 300+ pound guy trying to maul him around for 4 months and he maybe gets injured this time - for a while

I dunno that if I were in his shoes I would be so "Enthusiastic" when it came around for signing again with a team that did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row until it came time for a new deal. IMO if it were me that would not spell out a whole lot of dedication to protecting me for the future. It would show yet once again a last second mentality by the team to address a need position from day one. Also after the last game of the season with Cleveland and how some fans treated his wife and kids after the game you have to wonder if that wont play into things at signing time esp if the line does bad all year long again.

Carr Bombed
08-02-2005, 12:19 PM
First of all I think its a little premature to just assume this line is going to give up 40 something sacks again. Seth Wand is a year older and so are the other young lineman that play on the line. Plus with the timing routes and new protection schemes, I expect our sacks to fall somewhat. I'm predicting the Sack range to be in the high 20's, low 30's. One thing is for sure, the line can't get any worse and I think Carr has already gone through the worst of it. Also I really don't think one Dumb fan (I really don't know why we keep referring to this guy as a fan, no FAN would of done that) is going to play into his decesion if hes going to stay or not. After that incident there was a public outcry of support that touched his family so much his own mom got on this board and thanked us all. (That was very cool btw)

jmantexfan
08-02-2005, 12:36 PM
You can not certainly say that the Texans org. has done nothing to improve the line for Carr for 4 years in a row. They brought Wade here. Drafting Wand could be considered an attempt to improve the line. Now, bringing a vet OT in Riley to compete and push Wand to improve is another attempt. What about all we are hearing of C-Pitts taking reps at LT to see if he is a better fit there. I would say that is another attempt right there. We did take a center in the draft too. Although he is a late rounder, mgt. may hope for him to quickly become an upgrade to "push me back" (might not happen this year, atleast not at the start of the season) but that to is an attempt. what about the new scheme the Texans are learning. that can definitely be viewed as an attempt to help protect Carr from punishment.

I say, all in all, the staff has done a whole lot to (attempt) help Carr with protection. Ok, so they did not spend a ton of money on a high draft pick who might or moght not grasp the system this year. If next years draft will be so thick with OT's then maybe it is best to snagg one next year if the much more competitive than before candidates cannot step up this season. With the fact that competion forces players to step up or say good bye, i am compelled to believe one of those guys we have will indeed step up.

Just dont say they have done nothing to solve this problem, when they have indeed made plenty of attemps, and they still are trying to do so.

Dime
08-02-2005, 12:46 PM
Until the o-line can prove otherwise, we must trust the oline to think up new schemes. And we must think the other defenses of the league have devised way around it. If the sacks hit the number 40, then that is way to much in my book. IF the o-line can defend this year, awesome. But if they cant, we have to imagine what is going through the head of Carr. If I am the sack dummy for some teams (which hurts), I would be just biding my time till I can get where I aint one.

On a personal note. I have a way to train the oline to block better.

For every sack on a QB they incur, they get to stand there with the ball in throwing position and have a D-line sack them to show them what David feels. However this wont be done, but it would give them a idea why david is having to run out of the pocket so much. Ok.. that was the last thing about the oline.

any more and I would be :deadhorse

beerlover
08-02-2005, 01:11 PM
ok guys, im one of those that doesnt give Carr a lot of credit. Im trying to figure out why this guy rubs me the wrong way and i think its because he hasnt lived up to my expectations.

its the hair

:hairpull:

that whole thing about not getting a hair cut until the Texans win two in a row was fine, but when the time came to get back to his early crew cut look http://www.insidecowboys.com/1998/2002/cowboys/carrceleb0909.jpg it never came. there he was waiting for a showdown with Brett Farve in some anonymous saloon somewhere in Texas, tilting his head back giving his long locks a shake......please. ok I'm jealous :homer: http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/4z4zfn31.jpg

Exascor
08-02-2005, 01:11 PM
Unless Carr has his worst year as a Pro this season, odds are he'll be signed to an extension in the offseason or possibly the next. The only way Carr leaves the Texans is if the Texans don't think he's the best QB on the team. QBs rarely leave the team that drafts them unless they decide to let them go. IMO of course.

U4ikrob: "did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row"?
I suppose some fans think that quality LTs are common in the FA market. Well...they aren't. We made Boselli our first X-Draft pick in the hopes he would be the man to fill the position for years to come. We made a futile attempt to get Pace here but we knew where that was going anyways. We couldn't have signed Pace or Walter Jones in the past without coughing up a top-dollar contact and 2 first round draft picks. Most of the other LTs in the market were average at best and we already have an average LT in Pitts. We could have drafted a LT instead of Robinson or Johnson I suppose. Would any of you give them up for Jordan Gross or Shawn Andrews (who was a RT anyways)?

We've also attempted to get better on the O-Line each season with McKinney signed as a FA before the first season (might not be the best C in football but they did try), Weigart for the 2nd season, Wade last season and Riley this season.

They have changed blocking schemes and have tried more quick drops for Carr (which actually worked well in 2003 at protecting Carr). Carr himself wanted to "open up the playbook" last season which did fine until defenses figured out how to stop it by midseason. His performance went down and the sack total went up at the same time. We're reverting back to the quick drops and more timing patterns in an effort to lower the sack total.

Carr causes some of the sacks as well. He's not the biggest reason for the sacks but he's definately a factor.

Bottom line is the Texans staff HAVE tried to improve the line and sack count without completely ruining the teams future like Jaxs and Car did. We are still a team that has never has a .500 season. FAs come here for a lot of reason, but it's obviously not to play on a guaranteed winner (READ: Patriots). We have to rely on the draft and mostly 2nd tier FAs to build our team. We've even had to pay more than market value for players like Wade and R Smith. Top tier FAs will become interested in us once we begin to show we can win.

I like Carr and have had a lot of patience watching him develop. He isn't Brady, Farve or Manning but would you trade him for any QB playing for Miami, Buffalo, Cincinatti, Detroit, Baltimore, Arizona, San Francisco or Washington? I could go on with more teams but the point is made hopefully.

Exascor
08-02-2005, 01:15 PM
Looks like a lot of my points were covered while I wrote that post. hehe
That's what happens when you post while working. :)

Vinny
08-02-2005, 02:05 PM
I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too.Carr is signed to 2008. The only way he won't be here is if the Texans don't pick up his option. There is no Carr escape clause that I have seen anywhere.

U4ikrob
08-02-2005, 02:17 PM
IS he an RFA in 2008 or a UFA in 2008 Vinny? So is there No Re-letting clause in his contract Vinny? Have you seen the terms of the deal? I ask because its a pretty standard option on most contracts in contract law. Also - can he not "Hold-out" ala Alker/Owens/Moss etc.. for a new deal or ask to be traded??

Carr - Jman and Exas -

First off - For the record I am a David Carr and Texan fan - I think the guy has major stones for the job he has done thus far and for having the tenacity and mental toughness to still perform well under duress for the most part for 3 years in a row.

Whoa GUYS - I'm still trying to figure out how you guys got those poitns out of what I said - I guess all my careful wording of "IF" these things happen and "My thinking" and "IF I were in David's shoes" and Hypothetically speaking" just got removed on your way to post up.

Please "Re-Read" my post and edit yours accordingly - Thanks. No -bashing of the posts from me here.

I was talking mainly about David's contract and if we like him or why not and other points. My points were more on the "What is David's personal view of the team and his career along with the biz aspects of football." type of take The O-line is part of that talk for sure, but r." I wasnt implying, saying or stating anything else guys.

I was putting a" What IF" these things happen type of point out there - What would you do if you were in his shoes?

You can talk about the line over on the O-line threads all day long guys - Ive got plenty of fodder over there for you to flame on as folsk seem apt to do.

Trades : I was talking contracts in a general sense - IF the Texans offer 5/yr Max and lets say the "Dolphins", "Denver" or the "Bucs" offer a better deal of 7/years almost max money because they have such a huge need for a QB and promise a signing bonus of 10+million more. The 7 year deal could have a bigger up front bonus, but you may not play out the whole contract before having to renegotiate a new deal. The 5 year deal could be more solid, but offer's little bonus money and more of a measured salary that escalates.

Which deal would you take? There are a lot of variables that can be thrown in on deals to sweeten them to anyone. I also put out that "IF" I were in David's shoes it might be a hard choice to make based on several factors from above including his family's feelings.

A few more negative What if's on Topic would be -

How do you think fans will react this year to David if he has a few bad games to start off with?
Will there be more stuff thrown at his family on the way out after a bad game?
More Boo birds this year?
More heckling of the team and QB?
Chants of Banks or Ragone from the crowd when DC throws a pick?
Will the staff start questioning David's decision making if we go 0-3 to start the year?

Those points are easily turned around too positive also -

Do you think fans will chant Pro-Bowl for David if we go 3-0 to start?
Do you think fans will go out of there way this year to be more sensitive to David and other players families at the stadium?
Do you think Ragone will make third string if he continues to light things up in pre-season?
Do you think the staff will be more inclined to open up the offense and let David audible more on the line this year if we do well early on?

Porky
08-02-2005, 02:54 PM
http://www.kino-govno.com/posters/chickenlittle_1.jpg

Exascor
08-02-2005, 03:24 PM
U4...my post wasn't an attack on you or questioning your loyalty to the Texans. You used a lot of hypotheticals in your posts but one contained what appeared to be a statement of fact within it:I dunno that if I were in his shoes I would be so "Enthusiastic" when it came around for signing again with a team that did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row until it came time for a new deal.
That's implying that the Texans haven't done much to try to improve the situation (sacks) for the past 2-3 years already. That is a false statement IMO.

How do you think fans will react this year to David if he has a few bad games to start off with?
Will there be more stuff thrown at his family on the way out after a bad game?
More Boo birds this year?
More heckling of the team and QB?
Chants of Banks or Ragone from the crowd when DC throws a pick?
Will the staff start questioning David's decision making if we go 0-3 to start the year?
Yes to all of them except the 2nd-if that happens I hope someone goes to jail. Will these things be deserved? That's another question.

I'll answer the positives one at a time:
-Do you think fans will chant Pro-Bowl for David if we go 3-0 to start? No...10-3 and absolutely.
-Do you think fans will go out of there way this year to be more sensitive to David and other players families at the stadium? Maybe-Texans fans have always shown class. The "incident" was isolated and by a turd of a human.
-Do you think Ragone will make third string if he continues to light things up in pre-season? 3rd is a lock IMO-2nd string is VERY doubtful. Maybe next year.
-Do you think the staff will be more inclined to open up the offense and let David audible more on the line this year if we do well early on? Yes on opening the offense up with success. Carr audibles a lot already and rarely has success. I'm not saying it's Carr's fault that the audibles fail but it does seem like he always audibles to a run up the gut for a net gain of 1 yd tops. hehe

JamesLovesGames
08-02-2005, 03:54 PM
Sorry but Texans fans are not ALL class. The organization is class and about 75% the fans are. One of my cheesehead friends flew down and attended the game with me. We had to sit there and ignore alot of insulting comments during the game and then he had beer thrown on him while we were walking out after the game. The only redeeming thing he found about the Texans were the cheerleaders.

Vinny
08-02-2005, 04:04 PM
I dunno that if I were in his shoes I would be so "Enthusiastic" when it came around for signing again with a team that did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row until it came time for a new deal.Comments like this just ruin any argument you put forth since it is not factual, and based on pure imagination. Last year alone the team had 4 new starters on the line. NFL teams just don't swap out players that frequently and expect to do well.

Porky
08-02-2005, 04:10 PM
Sorry but Texans fans are not ALL class. The organization is class and about 75% the fans are. One of my cheesehead friends flew down and attended the game with me. We had to sit there and ignore alot of insulting comments during the game and then he had beer thrown on him while we were walking out after the game. The only redeeming thing he found about the Texans were the cheerleaders.

Would did he expect, a red carpet? Have him wear his Cheesehead to a Philly game and then if he makes it out alive, he can compare the two cities fans.

Vinny
08-02-2005, 04:15 PM
I don't expect to be attacked at any stadium, regardless of my garb. I don't condone this here or at Philly, GB or wherever. How YOU act in your rival garb has as much or more to do with how drunken fans treat you than just colors.

Exascor
08-02-2005, 04:54 PM
My statement was really a generalization and not meant to be a guaranteed fact about EVERY fan in the stands. :heh: I think overall our fans are great and compare to most of the better (not best yet) sports cities out there.

There's always a certain percentage of humans that will overdrink or be extremely obnoxious at sporting events around the world. I don't hold the entire stadium responsible for those few turds.

Carr Bombed
08-02-2005, 04:56 PM
Sorry but Texans fans are not ALL class. The organization is class and about 75% the fans are. One of my cheesehead friends flew down and attended the game with me. We had to sit there and ignore alot of insulting comments during the game and then he had beer thrown on him while we were walking out after the game. The only redeeming thing he found about the Texans were the cheerleaders.

Sorry to hear that, but a couple of fans don't make up 25% of the Texan fans. You just were unlucky enough to sit by a couple of drunk losers. Every stadium in this league has a few bad apples and plenty of drunken losers.

NoBullTexan
08-02-2005, 05:21 PM
Sorry but Texans fans are not ALL class. The organization is class and about 75% the fans are. One of my cheesehead friends flew down and attended the game with me. We had to sit there and ignore alot of insulting comments during the game and then he had beer thrown on him while we were walking out after the game. The only redeeming thing he found about the Texans were the cheerleaders.

So what, I and a coupla friends were in Miami for the opener a while back (this is back when the Dolphins were still hot stuff) anyway we wore our Texans hats and jerseys. We were ridiculed before and during the game, and then when we won and the game was over with, I thought we weren't going to make it out of the stadium without an altercation.

Some fans are unruly in every stadium. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

U4ikrob
08-02-2005, 06:00 PM
U4...my post wasn't an attack on you or questioning your loyalty to the Texans. You used a lot of hypotheticals in your posts but one contained what appeared to be a statement of fact within it:
That's implying that the Texans haven't done much to try to improve the situation (sacks) for the past 2-3 years already. That is a false statement IMO.


Thanks for the points Exas -Your bringing up the same thing Vinny is so I will address it for both.

I said - "I dunno that if I were in his shoes I would be so "Enthusiastic" when it came around for signing again with a team that did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row until it came time for a new deal."

As far as that statement being factual - I think thats a matter of the PoV of the post - that its a theory thus the statement was prefaced with a "If I were in his shoes" statement. Ive allready addressed the line concerns in other posts and have my own PoV.But if you go looking around all the news sources in the league over the entire existence of this team - Overall and overwhelmingly all agree our O-line is pretty bad and has been. Yet over here on this board it's a completely different story of how thigns are and if you try to convey this point to anyone over here - your all of sudden a bad fan who hates on the texans and Thinks there allready lost for the season.

Boggle :confused

l get a much different story than the fans thoughts over here at other boards. Mainly I was making a point about David playing thru all of these last 3 years - sacks and all and what effects it could have when it comes to him thinking about the team and re-signing for the long term and trying to keep the business aspect of it in perspective when doing so.

Honestly - If you were the guy who had to go out there and take the snaps for the team at QB and then got sacked 140+ times over three years. Afterwards you were asked what do you think are the chances of a 4th year carrying over and continuing the trend - What would you say? Would you still be so optomistic as the first year, or the second or third?? After your family were booed and yelled at and things tossed at them whne you played yoru last game?

Bad fans: Only one bad Texan fan in the stands after the Cleveland game ?

Not from what I was watching of that game. There were a whole lot more than one person saying and doing things that day that embarassed me as a fan of the team to say the least with their attitude and actions.

Honestly I think it's pretty downright bad how some people act at these events in general. Most sporting events have lots of adults in general who seem to show no respect to anyone including themselves at the games and has become so bad at times I wouldnt take my family to certain events because of the way they have acted.

Another bad example of that was earlier this year when I took my friends to an Astros/Cubs game. The home field side was filled up with Cubs fans who began chanting over and over from the 3rd inning on and throwing stuff and cussing at the players in Cheerleader chants. I had to cover a 4yr olds ears for some of the stuff we heard at the game.

Fans can be bad anywhere folks - The sayign goes 'Add alcohol - instant A-hole" for a reason. Having played in more than one stadium over the years as a musician for the USFL and NFL - that goes for all fans everywhere

TheBigTex
08-03-2005, 02:59 PM
Football is so often alluded to as a battle. Strategy, units, and determination of the warriors determine the outcome. But you cannot win a battle with just a rifle. You Must have artillery. WTF you ask? Car needs to learn to throw the ball too the recievers, not fire a bullet near them. AJ had to go up and expose himself too much last year, and as luck would have it, did not get hurt. Carr needs to perfect the timing and take the ball off a laser-line. The difference between Carr and The best QBs in the world, is the best know when to zip a ball on a line, and when to loft a spiral and lead a reciever down the line, or corner route or across the middle. I don't care how much he can throw passes hard enough to break bones in your hands. Get the ball to the recievers where and HOW they can catch it. Houston has World class recievers. Its not a reciever problem by any stretch of the imagination. And as for Coaching issues, Capers knows he cant have Car throw a high lofting spiral to ANYONE down the line. The only plays have to have recievers squared to Carr to be able to stop those finger-brakers against thier bodies, and then trust your recievers to break tackles from a standstill. This is the problem with the Texans Offense. Carr may be a QB, but he still need to learn to thow the ball for the situation.

Carr Bombed
08-03-2005, 04:11 PM
Football is so often alluded to as a battle. Strategy, units, and determination of the warriors determine the outcome. But you cannot win a battle with just a rifle. You Must have artillery. WTF you ask? Car needs to learn to throw the ball too the recievers, not fire a bullet near them. AJ had to go up and expose himself too much last year, and as luck would have it, did not get hurt. Carr needs to perfect the timing and take the ball off a laser-line. The difference between Carr and The best QBs in the world, is the best know when to zip a ball on a line, and when to loft a spiral and lead a reciever down the line, or corner route or across the middle. I don't care how much he can throw passes hard enough to break bones in your hands. Get the ball to the recievers where and HOW they can catch it. Houston has World class recievers. Its not a reciever problem by any stretch of the imagination. And as for Coaching issues, Capers knows he cant have Car throw a high lofting spiral to ANYONE down the line. The only plays have to have recievers squared to Carr to be able to stop those finger-brakers against thier bodies, and then trust your recievers to break tackles from a standstill. This is the problem with the Texans Offense. Carr may be a QB, but he still need to learn to thow the ball for the situation.

Did you watch the Texans play last season? Carr did show touch on many of his passes and changed the whole directory on his deep ball. That was the reason for the jump in his Comp%. Houston doesn't have World class receivers. AJ is one, but after that we have young prospects with good hands. The reason why I know they have good hands is because I saw them catching the ball WITH their hands, away from their body, especially AJ who spent last years offseason working on his hands. The only player who catches with their body is bradford who was never accused of having great hands.

geebrr
08-03-2005, 04:25 PM
I think Carr is a QB developing into being one of the upper tier QBs in the next couple of years.

He makes good reads for the most part, is tough as nails, has a good arm, decent mobility, and seems to be a very good leader.

Give him some more time, any guy who can take the beating he has and get up smiling deserves some extra time.

FILO_girl
08-03-2005, 07:14 PM
Sorry but Texans fans are not ALL class. The organization is class and about 75% the fans are. One of my cheesehead friends flew down and attended the game with me. We had to sit there and ignore alot of insulting comments during the game and then he had beer thrown on him while we were walking out after the game. The only redeeming thing he found about the Texans were the cheerleaders.

Wow, not only did we host a ton of Green and Gold at our tailgate (pics, I got 'em) and we then joked around with the fans inside (section 524 was nearly all G & G for some reason that game) and then we partied with the Favre fans again until we were kicked out of the lot. Our Favre pinata went home with someone in G & G and now lives somewhere in Southern Wisconsin. :)

I NEVER saw any disrespect to the Cheeseheads, but hear there was some. That is too bad, next time they need to come by FILO in the lots and sit near our seats inside. Raiders fans were in awe of the treatment we gave them (they have a standing invite to come to Orange lot, N. of pole #8 for ANY game). Sorry your friend had problems James.

Vinny
08-05-2005, 11:22 AM
Still trying to stoke the Chicken Little Brigade I see. Nice trolling tactic. Hat's off (but dogging the line in every post kind of exposes you).

Actually, I'd say our main problem is in the middle. LT gets all the beat down since if you don't have an elite player every team is looking for one (there are probably 10-12 teams in our situation at LT). The Texans drafted a Center in the draft last year and not a LT.

Exascor
08-05-2005, 07:09 PM
Seth Mckinney is good.
Wish I felt that way. He was the weakest link on the line last year and only Washington at Guard beat him for the title in 2003 IMO. 2002 has too many nominees so they decided not to give out the reward that season. I actually believe Washington would be better at Center than McKinney is and that's not saying much. Washington has slow feet.

I'm with Vinny here. The middle of the line is weak. If we could solidify the middle of the line, maybe the left side would shore itself up. I, personally, feel that replacing McKinney with a top level Center would improve our line the most. The only exception would be a franchise LT and that's a pipe-dream right now.

I'm not an O-line basher but I try to look at things with an open mind. I think our line will naturally be better due to an extra year playing together and in the new system.

Time will be the only judge.

Vinny
08-05-2005, 07:12 PM
Seth Mckinney is good.Seth McKinney is a Dolphin. Steve is the guy who gets blown up all the time here in Houston.

Exascor
08-05-2005, 07:22 PM
Sad thing is that I didn't catch that Vinny! hehe :bag:

Vinny
08-05-2005, 07:31 PM
wrong guy but you had the right comment. :thankyou: