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View Full Version : Is Carr Comfortible with any Receiver


Ibar_Harry
05-02-2004, 07:36 PM
on the Texans Team. Miller seems like the best bet. I was hoping we would pick up Berrian, but we gave up that possibility for defense. I'm going to say that that may prove to be a big mistake. There has been not indication that Carr and AJ have been working together in the off season. To develop the Harrison-Manning type connection, you have to work hard together in the off-season. Despite the receivers we have, I think this is a big weakness and it shows in the lack of consistency in the offense. Some of you will take me to task, but I think this is a part of the game you need to keep your eyes on. It takes two to be great in this phase of the game. One player can not do it alone. Hopefully we will hear that AJ and Carr have spent a lot of time together, but as I have stated there doesn't seem to be any such feedback out there indicating that that is taking place.

777texans
05-02-2004, 07:47 PM
hmm.... I wish/hope Carr/Andre worked together. Hey I have a question are QB's and WR good friends like Manning/Harrison?

Vinny
05-02-2004, 08:00 PM
If Carr can only throw to a "certain kind of receiver" then he is not a franchise QB. I think he will be fine. He needs to anticipate open receivers better. In the NFL, you cannot wait to visually see a guy open. You have to read the coverage and anticipate the throw. Carr waited way too long last year to find his second and third options so he was stuck throwing to AJ, or Dom Davis on a dump down. In year one it was the same thing. When he did not throw to Bradford, he checked all the way down to his last option in Miller. He has yet to find his middle options on a regular basis. I look for him to check down faster in his third year. ;)

Fiddy
05-02-2004, 08:04 PM
I dont know if Carr and AJ worked together, but if they did I dont think it was a lot. Most Miami Hurricanes go back to the Miami campus to work out for the offseason for some reason. I really dont think a QB and WR can help their connection through the offseason with no defense.

Ibar Harry, are you from Fresno or a Fresno fan? Where would have Berrian played? A return specialist becuase he isnt going to overtake AJ, or Gaff for that matter. The coaching staff has been really high on Derrick Armstrong and the say he should be on the field a whole lot more this season. I really dont see how skipping Berrian to get Babin was a "big mistake." We have 3 good WRs in AJ, Gaff, and Bradford. Four if what they say about Armstrong is true. We didnt have a pass rushing OLB. I cant see how getting a 4th string, 3rd at best, wideout is better then getting a pass rushing OLB.

Ibar_Harry
05-02-2004, 08:30 PM
Yes, I'm from Fresno and have watched Berrian and Carr play together. Again people forget that Berrian caught 25% of the passes thrown by Carr in his senior year. I think Berrian made Carr as much as Carr made Berrian. I believe Berrian, if he is healthy, is going to surprise a lot of people. He could be a Jerry Rice. He has tremendous hands and Kattie bar the door if there is any day light. Carr and Berrian had the Manning-Harrison type connection. The injury Berrian suffered in his original senior year could be the deciding factor. You have to have hands to recieve from Carr and I think that's why he likes Miller. Berrian was also an excellent route runner and that is another big factor for someone who throws missles like Carr. You have to be where the ball is going to be thrown. I think Carr is sufferning much like Elway in his 1st few years until they got some receivers with hands and Elway learned to finally take a little off of the ball. It has been stated that Harrison and Manning spend a lot of practice time together and I can believe it. It certainly has paid off for them.

Vinny
05-02-2004, 08:36 PM
You have to have hands to recieve from Carr and I think that's why he likes Miller.Miller caught a lot of balls Carr's first year because he was he last check-down. Last year, Dom Davis was the last check-down in the progression. Miller was higher in the hierarchy, and note how Miller's production fell off. Combine this fact with my earlier statements and it is easy to see a direct correlation there.

Fiddy
05-02-2004, 08:38 PM
I bet that Carr/AJ would be better than Carr/Berrian. I understand that Carr and Berrian had great success in college together, but I dont think you develop a Manning/Harrison type connection in college. It is a different game from the NCAA to the NFL. How many times did Berrian face press coverage in college.

ledzeppelin229
05-02-2004, 08:43 PM
I think all of our receivers have at worst adequate hands, but as SB said its pretty tough to catch a ball if it hasn't been thrown to you. Another problem with last season was Carr getting hurt for half the season and that might have hurt their progression but once camp starts back I think we'll see a much more efficient QB on our team. As for Berrian, keep an eye out for Sloan Thomas and Kendrick Starling, both seem to be a couple of sleeper WRs that have speed and pretty good hands from what I hear.

Fiddy
05-02-2004, 08:45 PM
I think all of our receivers have at worst adequate hands....Gaffney has good to great hands, his hands are very underrated.

infantrycak
05-02-2004, 08:46 PM
Again people forget that Berrian caught 25% of the passes thrown by Carr in his senior year. I think Berrian made Carr as much as Carr made Berrian.

And AJ caught almost 40% of all the passing yards from Carr/Banks last year. Does that mean they are more comfortable with him than Carr ever was with Berrian? We have 12 WR's for camp, plenty to find 5 solid prospects for the roster. FYI--in his rookie year AJ was the 6th best WR in the AFC with a rotating roster of injured and rookie QB's. Carr and AJ's chemistry is just fine.

Ibar_Harry
05-02-2004, 08:49 PM
I hope AJ and Carr become great as a duo, but I think AJ's hands are going to limit his great physical ability. I think you will find that Davis has very good hands along with Miller and Carr did dump a lot of passes in this senior year to people coming out of the back field. Anyway, its fun to open up the discussion a little bit and we will just have to wait and see what happens this year. I question what we have done in the off season to impove this team offensively. Yes, we picked up Wade, but we have not done a whole lot else.

Vinny
05-02-2004, 08:54 PM
I question what we have done in the off season to impove this team offensively. Yes, we picked up Wade, but we have not done a whole lot else.
This is the by-product of building via youth and having a 5-year plan. When you start a team with youngsters you don't make radical changes. You develop your young guys and add key veterans each year at critical positions. I just don't see any huge holes on our offense as some perceive.

Overall we added two impact linemen this year in the off-season. 2/8ths of the starting lines (offense and defense combined). This is a 25% upgrade to our lines. Factor in the resigning of Gary Walker and this is a fairly substantial off-season.

Fiddy
05-02-2004, 09:02 PM
I hope AJ and Carr become great as a duo, but I think AJ's hands are going to limit his great physical ability. It was posted in another thread (stats courtesy of infantrycak)., but AJ had 10 drops last year. 3 because of a left handed QB replacement. So he really had 7. Moss had 9. His hands are just fine. TO doesnt have the best hands, but he is a great WR.

aj.
05-02-2004, 09:08 PM
Yep. Bernard Berrian could be the next Jerry Rice. He really looks like the type who could go for 1,500 receptions, 22,000 yards and 195 TDs over the next 19 years. How could we be so stupid to not draft him.

In the 9 games that Carr started and finished, AJ had 44 receptions. That's 5 per game. That projects to 90 over a season. What is the problem?

thebigtrip
05-02-2004, 09:22 PM
In the 9 games that Carr started and finished, AJ had 44 receptions. That's 5 per game. That projects to 90 over a season. What is the problem?

Not to shoot down what you've said, but it'd actually be 80. But yeah, I actually think that AJ has the potential to put up around 90/1300/10 if everything goes right and Carr plays well.

bad
05-02-2004, 09:31 PM
Yes, I'm from Fresno and have watched Berrian and Carr play together.The same goes for me (small world, eh?) and like Ibar_Harry I was hoping the two could hook up in Houston. It could still happen; for one reason or another Berrian might not be successful in Chicago.

As I've attended Bulldogs games over the years I've seen players that were simply on another level. Marshall Faulk. Randall Cunningham (although we abused him). Henry Ellard and Stephon Paige. Lorenzo Neal. Trent Dilfer. Billy Volek. David Carr. Bernard Berrian was the same; when the ball was in his hands you held your breath. He has NFL-caliber moves, runs great routes and catches everything.

Oh well.

The good news for the Texans is that it seems we've filled our greatest defensive needs in the draft, which can only help our offense. It's going to be nice to have a CB with afterburners who likes to hit, and I'm getting good vibes from the Jason Babin pick, although it was costly. The Texans really wanted that guy and I think we'll understand why in 2004.

Andre Johnson is a stud WR who will only improve, Gaffney is a decent possession receiver and Bradford is a home run threat. We have a virtual plethora of tight ends and in the offensive backfield we have a young stud who has proven himself already and a speedster with a huge upside. I haven't come even close to giving up on Tony Hollings.

I wish the season could start tomorrow.

aj.
05-02-2004, 09:31 PM
Of course, 80. Same point 80 - 90. Need more chemistry? Huh?

infantrycak
05-02-2004, 11:38 PM
I hope AJ and Carr become great as a duo, but I think AJ's hands are going to limit his great physical ability.

Funny considering these quotes about Berrian:

"Inconsistent with the hands"
"He needs to improve his route running and his ability to concentrate when catching on the run."
"Has lapses in concetration that lead to dropped balls"

Lucky
05-03-2004, 12:03 AM
It was posted in another thread (stats courtesy of infantrycak)., but AJ had 10 drops last year. 3 because of a left handed QB replacement. So he really had 7.
Huh? Why is it Ragone's fault that AJ dropped 3 of his passes? Does Dave throw a naturally slippery ball? What's up with that?

AJ is potentially a great WR, just as Carr is potentially a great QB. They're not there just yet. If Stats, Inc. came up with 10 drops for AJ, OK. There were plays where he had his hands on the ball that wouldn't be considered drops. He could have made the play and didn't (and he certainly should have in the Tampa Bay game with Ragone at QB). I see AJ becoming a great WR, but he really wasn't "great" last year. Outstanding for a rookie and better than reasonably expected, sure.

ledzeppelin229
05-03-2004, 12:13 AM
Gaffney has good to great hands, his hands are very underrated.

I agree about his hands - What I was trying to say was that I don't think any of our receivers hands had a whole lot to do with whether or not Carr will throw to them.

On the topic of Gaffney, another positive about him that I saw in a game (don't remember who it was against) is he seems to have good awareness of the game around him. I remember a ball was tipped and the other teams DB got it into his hand for a moment, looked like it was about to be intercepted but Gaffney slapped it away for an incomplete pass.

One name that doesn't seem to be thrown around much is Ron Dugans. Will he make the final cut? He's isn't that old but he's been around the league enough to be effective, will he outlast the new guys like Thomas and Starling? We have some guys in NFL Europe that have been playing well too, there should be some tough cuts at WR this year.

BuffSoldier
05-03-2004, 12:13 AM
Huh? Why is it Ragone's fault that AJ dropped 3 of his passes? Does Dave throw a naturally slippery ball? What's up with that?


I think what he was putting imphasis on is that Ragone is left handed. The ball spins counter-clockwise instead of clockwise on the release. Im not trying to give AJ an excuse for dropping passes but when youve practiced and played with a right handed QB most of your NCAA and short NFl carrer its really a comfortability factor. He wasnt comfortable with a southpaw QB.

infantrycak
05-03-2004, 12:14 AM
As I recall the Tampa game last year, there were three passes that some people were howling about AJ dropping the ball. One was a deep route that Ragone put the ball tantalizingly close enough that people could blame AJ, but he had no realistic chance. The second was a crossing route where Ragone placed the ball behind AJ's shoulder while he was running at full speed--I suspect AJ and many top WR's would catch it about 50% of the time (and be credited with a phenominal catch)--that wasn't one of them. The third was a good toss where the DB had Aaron Glenn type timing and hit AJ exactly when he touched the ball--just as when Glenn makes similar plays, I credit the DB more than I fault the WR. All of that said, AJ clearly drops some balls (they all do) but the real question is how is he in comparison to other WR's. Maybe it is a definitional thing of what is good vs. great, but in my book a WR that comes in 6th in the AFC among all WR's (that is two spots out of being in the pro-bowl) is great--especially as a rookie.

Lucky
05-03-2004, 12:29 AM
I think what he was putting imphasis on is that Ragone is left handed. The ball spins counter-clockwise instead of clockwise on the release. Im not trying to give AJ an excuse for dropping passes but when youve practiced and played with a right handed QB most of your NCAA and short NFl carrer its really a comfortability factor. He wasnt comfortable with a southpaw QB.
Counter-clockwise instead of clockwise? That has to have 0.0% effect on catching a football thrown by a pro QB. Don't be fooled by what it looks like on TV, these balls are coming in like rockets. Receivers are watching the point of the ball, not looking at the rotation of the laces. That they can do this while running full speed with a 200 lb man in tow is amazing. But they can and that's what they're paid to do.

Vinny
05-03-2004, 01:31 AM
I don't understand this spin-logic thing either. I have never seen a football SPIN wildly out of someone's hands. :confused: The only difference this would make would be if Ragone was throwing the ball end-over-end. :rolleyes:

pittbull
05-03-2004, 08:25 AM
I know these are just thoughts that people have, but we must be the best half empty glass fans around. Just think, Carr has been with the Texans for two years, no line and expansion team. Johnson 1 year, caught 66 passes as a rookie! These two will be just fine. No one knows there personal business, if they worked out, slept together, emailed love notes??? Leave these future tag team partners alone. They will surprise the league more than we know!

sctx109
05-03-2004, 09:12 AM
Just as a response to the Berrian posters, we have brought in Carr's former WRs before. Remember Atnaf Harris, he was brought in the first year to help out Carr and to give him someone familiar to throw to. I believe Harris was even one of his top threats when he was at Fresno State. They cut Atnaf in training camp last year, cuz there were other guys with more potential or more ability. Berrian is more talented than Harris, but the point I am making is having a guy that Carr is familiar with will not go far if he does not have the talent to beat out our top WR.

Fiddy
05-03-2004, 09:17 AM
Counter-clockwise instead of clockwise? That has to have 0.0% effect on catching a football thrown by a pro QB. Don't be fooled by what it looks like on TV, these balls are coming in like rockets. Receivers are watching the point of the ball, not looking at the rotation of the laces. That they can do this while running full speed with a 200 lb man in tow is amazing. But they can and that's what they're paid to do. The ball spins the other way when it hits your hand. Instead of moving towards your body when you catch, the ball moves away. Maybe it was just a bad day for AJ, but the ball does different things with a lefty. It is a little overrated, I agree, but it is a reason I didnt like drafting a left handed QB to back up a right handed QB.

V Man
05-03-2004, 09:58 AM
As for Berrian, keep an eye out for Sloan Thomas and Kendrick Starling, both seem to be a couple of sleeper WRs that have speed and pretty good hands from what I hear.

What out for that Jermaine Lewis from the NFLE, real big WR that also playes good special teams, Returned and Blocked a punt in one game. :banana:

SBTexans08
05-03-2004, 01:50 PM
A.J.'s first year performance was better than expected IMO. We definitely got our pick's worth....sure he dropped some balls, but who doesn't...

I believe Carr did well for his second year with his rookie year not counting for being on his back the entire rookie season...last year was really his first. After this year, Carr will be sought after by the media...I just know it! His arm, WRs, and DD will make that possible.

Vinny
05-03-2004, 01:55 PM
The ball spins the other way when it hits your hand. Instead of moving towards your body when you catch, the ball moves away.
Doesn't that depend on the direction you are running :confused:

Wouldn't it be either direction depending on if you are running right-to-left or left-to-right. :confused:

Fiddy
05-03-2004, 04:37 PM
Doesn't that depend on the direction you are running :confused:

Wouldn't it be either direction depending on if you are running right-to-left or left-to-right. :confused:
Yeah it does, but when running a certain way you are expecting the ball to bounce a certain way when you go out to catch it. You have to adjust from the ball going one way with a righty to a different way with a lefty. Thats the point i am trying to make.

Vinny
05-03-2004, 04:45 PM
fair enough. ;)

done88
05-05-2004, 12:47 PM
Dom Davis is his favorite reciver. At least last year he was.

wiley2002
05-05-2004, 01:07 PM
David had better work with all the receivers this off-season. It is important that he doesn't pass to the same receiver the whole time.

Fiddy
05-05-2004, 04:33 PM
David had better work with all the receivers this off-season. It is important that he doesn't pass to the same receiver the whole time.I think the thing Carr needed to improve on was reading defenses. He was horrible in the 4th quarter last year. He had a QB rating under 20, or something like that.

Joe Texan
05-05-2004, 04:43 PM
Couch Coaches,

Let the team grow, quit micro anilyzing the players and let the experts do thier job. It sure will make you look a whole lot smarter

texasduece
05-05-2004, 04:54 PM
Yeah it does, but when running a certain way you are expecting the ball to bounce a certain way when you go out to catch it. You have to adjust from the ball going one way with a righty to a different way with a lefty. Thats the point i am trying to make.


I played TE all the way through college and catching a ball from a left handed guy was really no different. The only major difference is when your looking back you have to look for the ball to come from a different spot from behind the line. The other thing was the balls flight, Lefties have a natural hook when they throw anything. Finally the ball wasn't a harder ball to catch it was just different to pick up. As far as adjusting for the spin it never made any difference to me because it never bounced to me or away from me and the ball goes every direction from any QB when you don't catch it.