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76Texan
05-20-2014, 01:31 PM
FOR those who don't know me, I was the guy who defended those two during off-seasons, after their "seemingly" disastrous campaigns.

While doing so, I spent a lot of times breaking down several "perceived" terrible plays by the defendants.

Some claimed that I made them pro - bowlers while the usual thinking was that they stink.

That, by itself, is a "small" victory for the defendants, whether in the court of law or common "justice".
Just to make the jury explore the evidences that encompass the whole case rather than just zeroing in one target is always a good step. The final judgment is always in the hand of the jury.

Unfortunately, I don't have much time this year.
The regulars here can tell by my abscence.
They also know that I believe in Football as a team sport; it is won most often with a cohesive unit (Coaching, offense, defense, ST, and fans.)

All that said, I'd like to begin the "investigation" with Tom Brady in his second year with the Patriots.

Study his numbers from every aspect and they are really close to Keenum's

Then you look at each smaller unit.
Offensive weapons.
Running game.
The O-line.

Advantage Brady, by how much? It's hard to quantify; my thinking is the running game helped Brady more.

But when it comes to defense, I hate to say it, there was no contest.
Brady had nearly a ten point advantage.

And then there's ST.

...

I like Keenum a lot because he has it upstairs, but he's always limited in statue.
From day one, I've stressed that he needs to begin by observing Drew Brees.

Right now I think he plays more like a backup .

WolverineFan
05-20-2014, 01:40 PM
His problems against the blitz were so frustrating. He struggled, no problem with that. But he continually struggled with the same concept. No progression in that area at all last year. Blame the offensive line all you want (and it was bad) but it wasn't all their fault. Not even close.

Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

eriadoc
05-20-2014, 01:46 PM
Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

Those are frustrating plays, but they don't speak to his ability to play QB at all, IMO. A seasoned QB learns to go fetal when it's called for, while a young QB is more apt to try and extend the play. Add to that the pressure of getting what will likely be his only chance and he'd rather go down slinging it than playing it safe, I'd assume. Add to that the team's woes and I'm sure they all felt the need to try and do too much.

Of all the things to ding Keenum for, the long sacks are not too concerning, in my view.

Double Barrel
05-20-2014, 01:52 PM
Well, the good thing about having O'Brien come in without a starting QB is that we can be certain that Keenum will be analyzed and given a shot. If he does not pan out with O'Brien, then it should be fairly obvious when two different NFL staffs arrive at the same conclusion.

I'd love to see the kid make it and succeed, just because it's a great story. But, that said, story is a result, not a justification.

Playoffs
05-20-2014, 01:59 PM
Keenum doesn't have Brady's traits -- much steeper hill for him.

But it'll be fun to see how/if things chance with different QB coaching & new system.

eriadoc
05-20-2014, 02:06 PM
Keenum doesn't have Brady's traits -- much steeper hill for him.

Curious what traits you think the second year (first year starter) version of Tom Brady had that Keenum doesn't, and why you think Keenum doesn't have them. Obviously, Brady has become one of the best QBs in NFL history, but because of that, people tend to over-inflate his play in those first couple years.

76Texan
05-20-2014, 02:12 PM
His problems against the blitz were so frustrating. He struggled, no problem with that. But he continually struggled with the same concept. No progression in that area at all last year. Blame the offensive line all you want (and it was bad) but it wasn't all their fault. Not even close.

Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

Good; which was supposed to be on the card.
Everybody (or so it seems) is on this; which is totally legitimate?

76Texan
05-20-2014, 02:21 PM
Keenum doesn't have Brady's traits -- much steeper hill for him.

But it'll be fun to see how/if things chance with different QB coaching & new system.

What was Bradys trait, May I Ask?

xtruroyaltyx
05-20-2014, 02:38 PM
Can Keenum get better like those other two guys got better?

Sure.

76Texan
05-20-2014, 02:47 PM
His problems against the blitz were so frustrating. He struggled, no problem with that. But he continually struggled with the same concept. No progression in that area at all last year. Blame the offensive line all you want (and it was bad) but it wasn't all their fault. Not even close.

Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

We'll get to that.

michaelm
05-20-2014, 02:51 PM
Good; which was supposed to be on the card.
Everybody (or so it seems) is on this; which is totally legitimate?

I'm interested to understand what you're saying here, 76, but honestly can't figure it out. Can you elaborate? Thanks.

76Texan
05-20-2014, 03:56 PM
how so?

did chris myers and jackson only have 8 games to prove themselves worthy of being nfl players?

no they didnt.

they had multiple seasons of rope. matt schaub had how many years?

but somehow keenum has to prove himself in only 8 games and being thrust into a cesspool of failure that schaub and kubiak created if not, he is perpetually labeled as an incapable of playing in the nfl.

there is some serious hypocritical double standards going on here.

It's the nature of the job.
Keenum is a long shot, not an exception.

buddyboy
05-20-2014, 04:19 PM
how so?

did chris myers and jackson only have 8 games to prove themselves worthy of being nfl players?

no they didnt.

they had multiple seasons of rope. matt schaub had how many years?

but somehow keenum has to prove himself in only 8 games and being thrust into a cesspool of failure that schaub and kubiak created if not, he is perpetually labeled as an incapable of playing in the nfl.

there is some serious hypocritical double standards going on here.

At least Schaub won a game... :kitten:

76Texan
05-20-2014, 04:49 PM
His problems against the blitz were so frustrating. He struggled, no problem with that. But he continually struggled with the same concept. No progression in that area at all last year. Blame the offensive line all you want (and it was bad) but it wasn't all their fault. Not even close.

Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

Whatever number you're looking at; can you do me a favor looking at Brady ' s ?

And I promise you it#2 just a start m

chenjy9
05-20-2014, 05:10 PM
how so?

did chris myers and jackson only have 8 games to prove themselves worthy of being nfl players?

no they didnt.

they had multiple seasons of rope. matt schaub had how many years?

but somehow keenum has to prove himself in only 8 games and being thrust into a cesspool of failure that schaub and kubiak created if not, he is perpetually labeled as an incapable of playing in the nfl.

there is some serious hypocritical double standards going on here.

What double standards? I don't remember Schaub going 0-8 when we first got him. In fact, as much as I dislike Schaub, he started 2-0 I believe. This is a results driven league and the fact is, Keenum has not won anything, regardless the circumstance. I am all for giving him a shot this upcoming season during the preseason, but all of the QB's on our roster is a long shot to begin with.

CloakNNNdagger
05-20-2014, 05:11 PM
I watched Keenum just like everyone else did last year. He had very little to work with. Every rookie.........yes, I call him a rookie, as this was his first year in real live fire........shows the problems handling the blitz. However, those that are not surrounded by a strong support cast seldom can overcome the deficits they initially bring in. And, on top of that, if the game is not coached to their strengths, it becomes even uglier. Last year, by the time Keenum was given the helm, the Texans were whittled down to only the walking wounded and make shift poor excuses for "survivors." For any other QB, the fetal position and interceptions would have likely been the optional soup d'jour. I trust OB to sort things out one way or another. And it wouldn't surprise me if Keenum still comes out of camp as the best option.

76Texan
05-20-2014, 05:21 PM
His problems against the blitz were so frustrating. He struggled, no problem with that. But he continually struggled with the same concept. No progression in that area at all last year. Blame the offensive line all you want (and it was bad) but it wasn't all their fault. Not even close.

Also, the sacks. IIRC, of the 5 longest sacks taken last season, he had 3-4 of them including the 2 longest.

It's a legitimate question.
Aren't we asking of a world beater here?
No doubt we can use one.

CloakNNNdagger
05-20-2014, 05:29 PM
What double standards? I don't remember Schaub going 0-8 when we first got him. In fact, as much as I dislike Schaub, he started 2-0 I believe. This is a results driven league and the fact is, Keenum has not won anything, regardless the circumstance. I am all for giving him a shot this upcoming season during the preseason, but all of the QB's on our roster is a long shot to begin with.

In 2004, the first year Schaub was thrown in there with Atlanta, he played in 6 games, had 1 TD 4 INTs, a 47% completion rate, took 4 sacks and ended up with a 42 QB rating.

infantrycak
05-20-2014, 05:48 PM
In 2004, the first year Schaub was thrown in there with Atlanta, he played in 6 games, had 1 TD 4 INTs, a 47% completion rate, took 4 sacks and ended up with a 42 QB rating.

Non-starts where a QB is getting thrown in for either cleanup or lost cause duty are pretty meaningless stats to compare.

Schaub's first 8 starts (3-5): 62.7% comp., 7.77 ypa, 255.5 ypg, 85.8 rating.
Keenum's first 8 starts (0-8): 54.2% comp., 7.0 ypa, 220.0 ypg, 78.2 rating.

Which is not to say Keenum has shown us everything he has (which frankly I think is absurd), but I'm not holding my breath over him making it either.

drs23
05-20-2014, 06:04 PM
I watched Keenum just like everyone else did last year. He had very little to work with. Every rookie.........yes, I call him a rookie, as this was his first year in real live fire........shows the problems handling the blitz. However, those that are not surrounded by a strong support cast seldom can overcome the deficits they initially bring in. And, on top of that, if the game is not coached to their strengths, it becomes even uglier. Last year, by the time Keenum was given the helm, the Texans were whittled down to only the walking wounded and make shift poor excuses for "survivors." For any other QB, the fetal position and interceptions would have likely been the optional soup d'jour. I trust OB to sort things out one way or another. And it wouldn't surprise me if Keenum still comes out of camp as the best option.

I've been searching for the same words to express those exact thoughts. Thanks for articulating it for me. :)

Blake
05-20-2014, 06:09 PM
Non-starts where a QB is getting thrown in for either cleanup or lost cause duty are pretty meaningless stats to compare.

Schaub's first 8 starts (3-5): 62.7% comp., 7.77 ypa, 255.5 ypg, 85.8 rating.
Keenum's first 8 starts (0-8): 54.2% comp., 7.0 ypa, 220.0 ypg, 78.2 rating.

Which is not to say Keenum has shown us everything he has (which frankly I think is absurd), but I'm not holding my breath over him making it either.

I still have high expectations for Keenum. 4 losses by 3 or less. I think a big plus for him is that he seems to be having fun out there and loves playing. I feel like he will make a huge leap this year.

maddogmrb
05-20-2014, 06:36 PM
http://www.battleredblog.com/2014/5/20/5732992/the-definitive-case-keenum-highlight-reel-isnt-all-that-flattering

http://www.vavel.com/en-us/nfl/352188-who-will-be-quarterback-for-texans.html

I think that first video shows what Keenum can do with a competent team around him. It was when the team fell apart in all the areas below that his game didn't look so good.

Improved Coaching = Yes
Improved Oline = Hopefully, Yes
Improved Running Game = Yes
Improved Special Teams = Yes
Improved Defense = Yes
Improved Keenum = Yes

DocBar
05-20-2014, 06:49 PM
I watched Keenum just like everyone else did last year. He had very little to work with. Every rookie.........yes, I call him a rookie, as this was his first year in real live fire........shows the problems handling the blitz. However, those that are not surrounded by a strong support cast seldom can overcome the deficits they initially bring in. And, on top of that, if the game is not coached to their strengths, it becomes even uglier. Last year, by the time Keenum was given the helm, the Texans were whittled down to only the walking wounded and make shift poor excuses for "survivors." For any other QB, the fetal position and interceptions would have likely been the optional soup d'jour. I trust OB to sort things out one way or another. And it wouldn't surprise me if Keenum still comes out of camp as the best option.It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Keenum wins the starting job. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Fitz/Yates/Savage won the starting job, either.

All I expect is honest, open competition and the best man wins. No favoritism.

I think we'll see this scenario at every position. I don't expect to see a lot of loyalty from the coaching staff. They didn't draft the vets on this team. That should improve the overall play of the team. imo.

Seegara
05-20-2014, 08:28 PM
Can Keenum get better like those other two guys got better?

Sure.
No, in my opinion. The problems he has are not the kind you can learn out of. He's still ok as a backup.

Hope he proves me wrong.

chenjy9
05-20-2014, 08:43 PM
Here is my personal take on it; I am not confident in our QB's at all. We all know what Fritz is capable of and quite frankly, it's not pretty. Yates is basically like a poor man's healthy Schaub IMHO, though that could have just been under Kubes.

Keenum to me right now is like a spark that most of us are wondering if after getting terrorized constantly (due to our lack of O-line and running game as well as his own seemingly inability to read blitzes) is not already snuffed out. Kid was a UDFA for a reason. He had flaws that made every team doubt him for 7 rounds. There is a much higher chance he turns out a scrub than like Foster. That said, I would not mind at all if he wins the starting spot during pre-season or season. I just want a starting QB for the Texans that can help us win. I don't care who he is. Hell, he can even be an alien from outer space.

Savage... I'll be honest, I only know as much of him as anyone else who reads scout articles, watch highlights, and listen to interviews. I love his arm though. I love the fact that he has a cannon of an arm. I love the fact that we will have to be more concerned about overthrowing folks for a change. Accuracy is a huge concern, but from what I understand from scouting articles, he got better the more he played (go figure). By all accounts, he is a tough guy. That said, so was Schaub until he completely broke down last season.

At the end of the day, I honestly just want us to win. I don't care if it's with a future Brees, Brady, or whoever. We have too much talent on our team to suck like we did last year. Granted, injuries played a huge part, but sometimes that's the roll of the dice. I am SUPER STOKED though about this season. We buffed the living hell out of our line and for the first time in a LOOONG time, the draft has me psyched out. Who's with me? :fans:

EllisUnit
05-20-2014, 08:49 PM
FOR those who don't know me, I was the guy who defended those two during off-seasons, after their "seemingly" disastrous campaigns.

While doing so, I spent a lot of times breaking down several "perceived" terrible plays by the defendants.

Some claimed that I made them pro - bowlers while the usual thinking was that they stink.

That, by itself, is a "small" victory for the defendants, whether in the court of law or common "justice".
Just to make the jury explore the evidences that encompass the whole case rather than just zeroing in one target is always a good step. The final judgment is always in the hand of the jury.

Unfortunately, I don't have much time this year.
The regulars here can tell by my abscence.
They also know that I believe in Football as a team sport; it is won most often with a cohesive unit (Coaching, offense, defense, ST, and fans.)

All that said, I'd like to begin the "investigation" with Tom Brady in his second year with the Patriots.

Study his numbers from every aspect and they are really close to Keenum's

Then you look at each smaller unit.
Offensive weapons.
Running game.
The O-line.

Advantage Brady, by how much? It's hard to quantify; my thinking is the running game helped Brady more.

But when it comes to defense, I hate to say it, there was no contest.
Brady had nearly a ten point advantage.

And then there's ST.

...

I like Keenum a lot because he has it upstairs, but he's always limited in statue.
From day one, I've stressed that he needs to begin by observing Drew Brees.

Right now I think he plays more like a backup .

Whats with all this foolish talk i cant remember a single person debating with you HOW HORRIBLE KJ was. Hmmm you must be imagining things :kitten:

drs23
05-20-2014, 09:12 PM
...the draft has me psyched out. Who's with me? :fans:

OK, I'm in.

Speedy
05-20-2014, 09:21 PM
Non-starts where a QB is getting thrown in for either cleanup or lost cause duty are pretty meaningless stats to compare.

Schaub's first 8 starts (3-5): 62.7% comp., 7.77 ypa, 255.5 ypg, 85.8 rating.
Keenum's first 8 starts (0-8): 54.2% comp., 7.0 ypa, 220.0 ypg, 78.2 rating.

Which is not to say Keenum has shown us everything he has (which frankly I think is absurd), but I'm not holding my breath over him making it either.

Peyton Manning's first 8 starts (1-7): 55.1% comp, 6.41 ypa, 234 ypg, 64.5 rating.

badboy
05-20-2014, 09:55 PM
Keenum seemed to learn from his mistakes each year going back to college. I think Manziel did also for that matter. If OB cannot make him better than so be it but I like the spark I saw in teammates and fans when he was on field. Basically, Case is a soph this year and hopefully will show growth & I hope he will get lots of attention. We all want the best guy starting; if it turns out to be Keenum, as a local guy overcoming odds since high school, he will be a national story.

DocBar
05-20-2014, 10:15 PM
Whats with all this foolish talk i cant remember a single person debating with you HOW HORRIBLE KJ was. Hmmm you must be imagining things :kitten:Wait...what?
:kitten:

DocBar
05-20-2014, 10:17 PM
Peyton Manning's first 8 starts (1-7): 55.1% comp, 6.41 ypa, 234 ypg, 64.5 rating.Who's Peyton Manning? When did he play for the Texans? :sarcasm:

EllisUnit
05-20-2014, 10:21 PM
Wait...what?
:kitten:

You ever heard that song "It wasnt me"

yeah denial is the easiest route in this situation !

HJam72
05-20-2014, 10:26 PM
I really want Keenum to get a fair shot at it, but with no bias in his favor either.

Arky
05-20-2014, 10:45 PM
I don't think Keenum really deserves the 0-8 w/l.... Yeah, he's stuck with it but like any stat, it's says things and doesn't say things...

In two of those games, he threw for 3 TD's and no INT's. That sounds like a QB doing his job to me. As mentioned, 4 losses were by 3 pts or less.... Also, relief pitcher Schaub entered a couple or three of those games and couldn't save the day....

Keenum's rating of 78.2 is respectable for a first real action, 1/2 a season QB. What was Andrew Luck's rating in his rookie year for the 11-5 Colts? 76.5. So much for QB stats...

OTOH, Keenum was somewhat painful to watch in some of the later games. I sometimes wonder if Keenum wasn't being given full support by a coaching staff that knew it was probably on the way out.....

At any rate, in 2013, if it wasn't the QB, it was the kicker, the defense or injury biting them in the butt..... that's how you end up 2-14....

DocBar
05-20-2014, 11:13 PM
You ever heard that song "It wasnt me"

yeah denial is the easiest route in this situation !hey brother!! (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cp6mKbRTQY)

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 12:01 AM
FOR those who don't know me, I was the guy who defended those two during off-seasons, after their "seemingly" disastrous campaigns.


You're not the only one here who can spot good play when you see it. I was championing Chris Meyers before you got on board & I was defending the rookie KJ & the rookie Mario from day one.

There are others here who have also been on the right side of those players.

Some of those guys are on the other side of the Keenum debate.


All that said, I'd like to begin the "investigation" with Tom Brady in his second year with the Patriots.

Study his numbers from every aspect and they are really close to Keenum's


How many 15+ yard sacks did Tom Brady take? In 2000, Tom Brady took 41 sacks for 216 yards after 14 games. Keenum took 19 sacks for 201 yards in 8 games.

It's been a long time, but I can't ever remember watching Brady, Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers & saying WTF is he going?


...

I like Keenum a lot because he has it upstairs, but he's always limited in stature.

Right now I think he plays more like a backup .

Then maybe we are on the same side.

I'm not going to say he's never going to be anything. At the same time, I'm not going to say he deserves another shot.

I believe he's going to get another shot & hope he responds better to a different coach.

maddogmrb
05-21-2014, 12:08 AM
I don't think Keenum really deserves the 0-8 w/l.... Yeah, he's stuck with it but like any stat, it's says things and doesn't say things...

In two of those games, he threw for 3 TD's and no INT's. That sounds like a QB doing his job to me. As mentioned, 4 losses were by 3 pts or less.... Also, relief pitcher Schaub entered a couple or three of those games and couldn't save the day....

Keenum's rating of 78.2 is respectable for a first real action, 1/2 a season QB. What was Andrew Luck's rating in his rookie year for the 11-5 Colts? 76.5. So much for QB stats...

OTOH, Keenum was somewhat painful to watch in some of the later games. I sometimes wonder if Keenum wasn't being given full support by a coaching staff that knew it was probably on the way out.....

At any rate, in 2013, if it wasn't the QB, it was the kicker, the defense or injury biting them in the butt..... that's how you end up 2-14....

Good points Arky. I think it was very obvious that the coaching staff wasn't preparing Keenum for the pressure he was facing and wasn't adjusting to what the defenses were doing. Perhaps they were coasting on their way out the door and it manifest in the play of basically a rookie QB.

Of course, Keenum must do a better job himself and I'm sure with competent coaching and an overall improved team he will look much better this year. If you look at his play in his first 3 games, when the team and coaches were still trying, you can see his potential. Does that get him the starting job ... remains to be seen.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 12:09 AM
Curious what traits you think the second year (first year starter) version of Tom Brady had that Keenum doesn't, and why you think Keenum doesn't have them. Obviously, Brady has become one of the best QBs in NFL history, but because of that, people tend to over-inflate his play in those first couple years.

I'll give you that.

Brady fumbled the ball 12 times as a first year starter, in 14 games.

Keenum fumbled the ball 9 times in 8.

I've got no misconceptions about the guy Tom Brady was. He wasn't a great QB back then, but he was clutch. Always managing to get his team what they needed when they needed it most.

Can't say the same for first year Keenum.

So I understand the guys who are wanting to move on & find our franchise QB, because unless you see Romo as a franchise QB, it's hard to think about Keenum as the face of our franchise.

I think Romo is a franchise QB.

Still, I feel if we don't have a franchise QB, get me another Schaub. A healthy Schaub & I think Keenum can be that.

But don't stop looking for that franchise QB, even though you might hurt Keenum's feelings.

Norg
05-21-2014, 12:17 AM
Keenum better hope he can make the team

if bob only wants to carry 2 QBS well then Kennum is in reallly big trouble

I'd take Yates over Case has of right now at least he won a PLayoff game and played decent against Balty

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 12:17 AM
At least Schaub won a game... :kitten:

Schaub, in his worst season ever, won two games. He took 21 sacks for 162 yards.

As a first time starter, Schaub only took 16 sacks for 126 yards, finished with an 87.2 passer rating, & he punished teams for blitzing him.

DocBar
05-21-2014, 12:20 AM
I'll give you that.

Brady fumbled the ball 12 times as a first year starter, in 14 games.

Keenum fumbled the ball 9 times in 8.

I've got no misconceptions about the guy Tom Brady was. He wasn't a great QB back then, but he was clutch. Always managing to get his team what they needed when they needed it most.

Can't say the same for first year Keenum.

So I understand the guys who are wanting to move on & find our franchise QB, because unless you see Romo as a franchise QB, it's hard to think about Keenum as the face of our franchise.

I think Romo is a franchise QB.

Still, I feel if we don't have a franchise QB, get me another Schaub. A healthy Schaub & I think Keenum can be that.

But don't stop looking for that franchise QB, even though you might hurt Keenum's feelings.MSR for your last 2 posts in this thread. Good points and arguments.

Hervoyel
05-21-2014, 12:46 AM
Schaub, in his worst season ever, won two games. He took 21 sacks for 162 yards.

As a first time starter, Schaub only took 16 sacks for 126 yards, finished with an 87.2 passer rating, & he punished teams for blitzing him.

It should be noted that Schaub became a starter after watching for three seasons behind Michael Vick in Atlanta. That's three training camps, three preseasons, a variety of appearances in 38 games (ranging from no-throwing cleanup-time hand-off duty to a pair of starts (one each in 2004 and 2005).

By the time Matt came to Houston to be a full time starter he'd already attempted 161 NFL passes, completing 84 of them for 1033 yards, and 6 TD's to go with his 6 INT's. About a 55% percent completion percentage.

He'd started out with a 42 passer rating in Atlanta and climbed up as high as 98 before settling back to 71.

Compared to Keenum's introduction to the starting QB job Schaub had it pretty damn good in terms of prep time. Even then he still only played in 11 games in 2007 and threw as many picks as touchdowns (9/9).

In his 8 games starting last year Keenum threw the ball 5 more times per game that Matt did in 2007. Keenum also threw for 9 TD's but only 6 picks. Neither one of them had much in the way of a running game. Schaub's protection was much better but more than that Schaub already knew how to handle being pressured at this level.

Matt won 3 games his first year here. Keenum won none in his. Matt had a passer rating over 100 in each of his 2007 wins. Keenum had a passer rating over 100 twice but both games were losses.

What does it all mean? To me it means the line between being a "success" who gets 7 seasons to run your course and being a failure who's already peaked after 8 games is a very fine line indeed. It probably means nothing really. just pointing out that those two players had completely different paths to their first chance at being the full-time starter on their respective teams.

I really wouldn't wish Keenum's so-called "opportunity" on any promising young QB much less on an UDFA that half the fan base thinks isn't worth the trouble to begin with.

ArlingtonTexan
05-21-2014, 12:57 AM
Well, the good thing about having O'Brien come in without a starting QB is that we can be certain that Keenum will be analyzed and given a shot. If he does not pan out with O'Brien, then it should be fairly obvious when two different NFL staffs arrive at the same conclusion.

I'd love to see the kid make it and succeed, just because it's a great story. But, that said, story is a result, not a justification.

Keenum has had two opportunities that most undrafted free agents do not have at all... a clean opportunity to start for 8 games and a chance to outplay three Qbs that the organization/coaching staff does not have a significant investment.

I won't even consider arguing that it is fair, but a guy like him has to take advantage of situations no matter how bad. Last year he failed and mostly showed his weaknesses. Again not fair that the Texans were not a 'perfect' but he made nothing better. Getting an off-season to SHOW this new staff this he is a legitimate NFL STARTING qb is more than he could ever ask for after 2013.

WolverineFan
05-21-2014, 01:22 AM
Good; which was supposed to be on the card.
Everybody (or so it seems) is on this; which is totally legitimate?

We'll get to that.

Whatever number you're looking at; can you do me a favor looking at Brady ' s ?

And I promise you it#2 just a start m

It's a legitimate question.
Aren't we asking of a world beater here?
No doubt we can use one.

I'm going to need your help deciphering all of this. I only made one post in this thread and you responded to it 4 different times with this gibberish. I really have no idea what you're getting at.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 01:22 AM
Getting an off-season to SHOW this new staff this he is a legitimate NFL STARTING qb is more than he could ever ask for after 2013.

Which is why I don't understand all the bickering. It's going to happen. Keenum is going to get another chance. He'll prove some of us right & some of us wrong...

ArlingtonTexan
05-21-2014, 01:40 AM
Which is why I don't understand all the bickering. It's going to happen. Keenum is going to get another chance. He'll prove some of us right & some of us wrong...

some people want to be the smartest guy on the message board.

eriadoc
05-21-2014, 01:45 AM
But don't stop looking for that franchise QB, even though you might hurt Keenum's feelings.

Hey, I've said all along that I want an honest competition (at every position, really). I want Savage and Yates to get an honest competition. And I want the best man to win. I want that best man to be Keenum, but I don't want Keenum to be handed the job like QBs in Texans past have. I am rooting for him to win the job, not to just be handed the job. If he doesn't win it, then I don't want him on the field. And I said the same thing about Schaub. If he was good enough to beat out Rosenfels and whoever else, then he shouldn't have had an issue if the job were put to an open competition. But it never was. If Keenum somehow wins the starting job, it'll be in large part because of his perseverance and mental toughness, a couple traits I think will serve him well throughout his NFL career, however long or short it may be.

So yeah, draft a QB every year. Just make sure the starter has to win the job. If he's good enough, that'll be the least of his (and the team's) concerns.

corytx8
05-21-2014, 01:48 AM
There is really no point fussing over Case. I am pulling for the guy but I want what's best of the team. He is going to get his shot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

LikeMike
05-21-2014, 07:28 AM
There is a majory difference here. KJ and Myers were hated by the majority of the fanbase. Lots of people would`ve been happy just to get rid of them.

Most people here like Keenum. He is a cool guy, local guy, he had some exciting games, can do lots of throws. But he has his defficiencies. Mostly picking up the blitz, some because of his size, and it seems like he isn`t fast going through his reads. I don`t think many people hate him, if any. I think lots of people simply question, if he has the talent and the tools to develope into a franchise QB. And I don`t think many would want to cut him. If he looks great in camp and preseason, I think most people would be happy with him as a starter.

CloakNNNdagger
05-21-2014, 07:48 AM
It should be noted that Schaub became a starter after watching for three seasons behind Michael Vick in Atlanta. That's three training camps, three preseasons, a variety of appearances in 38 games (ranging from no-throwing cleanup-time hand-off duty to a pair of starts (one each in 2004 and 2005).

By the time Matt came to Houston to be a full time starter he'd already attempted 161 NFL passes, completing 84 of them for 1033 yards, and 6 TD's to go with his 6 INT's. About a 55% percent completion percentage.

He'd started out with a 42 passer rating in Atlanta and climbed up as high as 98 before settling back to 71.

Compared to Keenum's introduction to the starting QB job Schaub had it pretty damn good in terms of prep time. Even then he still only played in 11 games in 2007 and threw as many picks as touchdowns (9/9).

In his 8 games starting last year Keenum threw the ball 5 more times per game that Matt did in 2007. Keenum also threw for 9 TD's but only 6 picks. Neither one of them had much in the way of a running game. Schaub's protection was much better but more than that Schaub already knew how to handle being pressured at this level.

Matt won 3 games his first year here. Keenum won none in his. Matt had a passer rating over 100 in each of his 2007 wins. Keenum had a passer rating over 100 twice but both games were losses.

What does it all mean? To me it means the line between being a "success" who gets 7 seasons to run your course and being a failure who's already peaked after 8 games is a very fine line indeed. It probably means nothing really. just pointing out that those two players had completely different paths to their first chance at being the full-time starter on their respective teams.

I really wouldn't wish Keenum's so-called "opportunity" on any promising young QB much less on an UDFA that half the fan base thinks isn't worth the trouble to begin with.

Great post, Herv! I believe Keenum will get his fair chance to compete for the starting role.......and that is all I would ask for. Last year, Keenum wasn't just simply thrown into the fire...............he was thrown into Hell.

http://images.christianpost.com/blog/full/12243/lake-of-fire.jpg?w=350&h=257

maddogmrb
05-21-2014, 10:18 AM
not fair that the Texans were not a 'perfect' but he made nothing better.

Nobody is saying they have to be perfect .... just competent. As Cloak said, Keenum wasn't thrown into the fire last year ... he was thrown into hell. So, if you have a scale with 'perfect' on one end and 'hell' on the other, this team was much closer to hell.

I would also say that in his first 3 games, before the team and coaches quit on the season, he did make things better. He certainly held up his end but was betrayed by poor special teams and defense.

Yes, he does have a lot of room for improvement in his game and we'll see if he makes that leap this year.

michaelm
05-21-2014, 10:30 AM
I'm not a UH fan.
I'm not a home town Keenum homer.
I don't care who comes out of camp as the starter, as long as it's the guy that gives us the best chance to win.

Now, having said that, I've stated before that I think Kubiak was Keenum's main problem. I think Kubiak gradually stifled Keenum's natural style of play, and made Keenum think too much, resulting in CK playing tight.
I know I am in a small minority to think this, and I hope O'Brien gives Keenum a fair shot just so I can see if I was correct or not.
I'm not saying that Keenum will ever be an above average QB in the league, but I think he is capable of much better play than he exhibited, especially later in the season.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:49 AM
Sorry for all the gibberish.
Typing on a new phone isn't fun.

TK had made most of the points for me.

The number of sacks he took are about the same as Brady in his first year (prorated).

The most important thing; though, is that Brady's defense allowed nearly ten fewer points per game.
If the Texans D had done the same, how many wins would Keenum have?

Brady had a real kicker.
Who did Keenum have?

And we all know that if the Texans were close in games, they would have run the ball more.
Wait.
Keenum was the leading rusher on the team.
Look at what Tate and Foster did in the games Keenum played.
And don't even start on the other guys.

Blake
05-21-2014, 10:51 AM
Keenum better hope he can make the team

if bob only wants to carry 2 QBS well then Kennum is in reallly big trouble

I'd take Yates over Case has of right now at least he won a PLayoff game and played decent against Balty

Are you refering to the playoff game?
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT SACKS QBR RTG
T. Yates 17/35 184 5.3 0 3 0-0 13.6 28.8

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Brady had a better running game to protect him.
His D forced about twice more turnovers to give the ball back.
His special team was better over all.
In fact, aftet punt return, Brady averaged nearly ten yards in better field position than Keenum had to start with.

And who's going to say that Kubiak is a better coach than BB?

Mr teX
05-21-2014, 10:55 AM
I'm not a UH fan.
I'm not a home town Keenum homer.
I don't care who comes out of camp as the starter, as long as it's the guy that gives us the best chance to win.

Now, having said that, I've stated before that I think Kubiak was Keenum's main problem. I think Kubiak gradually stifled Keenum's natural style of play, and made Keenum think too much, resulting in CK playing tight.
I know I am in a small minority to think this, and I hope O'Brien gives Keenum a fair shot just so I can see if I was correct or not.
I'm not saying that Keenum will ever be an above average QB in the league, but I think he is capable of much better play than he exhibited, especially later in the season.

Being a good qb is as much about being able to make defenses pay with those things you do well as it is about making them pay when they force you to do things you don't do as well....I say that to say that Kubiak handled him the same way most HC's handle qbs...He highlighted things that he did best within the framework of the overall offense...We saw way more spread offensive sets that catered to Keenum & his comfortability. Really that's all you can ask for from your HC.

Early on Keenum had some moments where his best skills shined through..that wasn't just Keenum balling out, that had something to do with Kubiak too. but slowly as defenses began to adjust and force him out of his comfort zone, Keenum had no answers. That primetime jags game was atrocious to watch on offense with Keenum at the helm. & from that end, what was kubiak supposed to do? scrap his whole offense to put more plays in for Keenum?

Ryan
05-21-2014, 11:39 AM
Are you refering to the playoff game?
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT SACKS QBR RTG
T. Yates 17/35 184 5.3 0 3 0-0 13.6 28.8


Yeah if we just got average QB play out of Yates we likely walk into New England and play for the AFC championship.

HouTx11
05-21-2014, 11:57 AM
If it were up to me, I'd let it be a competition between Fitz/Keenum/Yates for the starting QB and backup positions. Biggest loser of those 3 gets cut. Savage is locked in @ the #3 spot, where he will practice and learn.

We are in a rebuild anyways so the following is how it would work:

Whoever wins the starting job better come out of the gate shooting, and shooting well. Win OR lose, the starting QB will be evaluated based off of his play. Taking way too many sacks will be frowned upon as well as too many INT's, especially of the pick 6 variety!!!! I would not spend too much time this season with a QB that struggles! Bench him for the backup QB and let him have a shot. Repeat if necessary until we either have a confident winning QB at the starter spot, or else we run out of games!!

deucetx
05-21-2014, 12:13 PM
Keenum better hope he can make the team

if bob only wants to carry 2 QBS well then Kennum is in reallly big trouble

I'd take Yates over Case has of right now at least he won a PLayoff game and played decent against Balty

Yates did not win the playoff game. The Texans did. All he did was hand the ball off and got the hell out of the way. Nothing in that game hung upon his shoulders what so ever. The defense and Foster controlled that one.

And he played like absolute crap against the Ravens so not sure where you got 'decent' from. Well, unless you mean decently bad then yes, I concur.

DocBar
05-21-2014, 12:42 PM
Being a good qb is as much about being able to make defenses pay with those things you do well as it is about making them pay when they force you to do things you don't do as well....I say that to say that Kubiak handled him the same way most HC's handle qbs...He highlighted things that he did best within the framework of the overall offense...We saw way more spread offensive sets that catered to Keenum & his comfortability. Really that's all you can ask for from your HC.

Early on Keenum had some moments where his best skills shined through..that wasn't just Keenum balling out, that had something to do with Kubiak too. but slowly as defenses began to adjust and force him out of his comfort zone, Keenum had no answers. That primetime jags game was atrocious to watch on offense with Keenum at the helm. & from that end, what was kubiak supposed to do? scrap his whole offense to put more plays in for Keenum? I commented on that very thing last year. I was very interested in how Keenum would do once teams had some film on him. I was disappointed.

CloakNNNdagger
05-21-2014, 01:03 PM
I commented on that very thing last year. I was very interested in how Keenum would do once teams had some film on him. I was disappointed.

I was more interested in how our other offensive players and offensive scheme would adjust...........the type of offensive players left over, either because of injuries or questionable skills, couldn't.........and the offensive scheme wouldn't.

Hervoyel
05-21-2014, 01:10 PM
If it were up to me, I'd let it be a competition between Fitz/Keenum/Yates for the starting QB and backup positions. Biggest loser of those 3 gets cut. Savage is locked in @ the #3 spot, where he will practice and learn.

We are in a rebuild anyways so the following is how it would work:

Whoever wins the starting job better come out of the gate shooting, and shooting well. Win OR lose, the starting QB will be evaluated based off of his play. Taking way too many sacks will be frowned upon as well as too many INT's, especially of the pick 6 variety!!!! I would not spend too much time this season with a QB that struggles! Bench him for the backup QB and let him have a shot. Repeat if necessary until we either have a confident winning QB at the starter spot, or else we run out of games!!

I could live with that!

Double Barrel
05-21-2014, 01:18 PM
Yates did not win the playoff game. The Texans did. All he did was hand the ball off and got the hell out of the way. Nothing in that game hung upon his shoulders what so ever. The defense and Foster controlled that one.

And he played like absolute crap against the Ravens so not sure where you got 'decent' from. Well, unless you mean decently bad then yes, I concur.

Yates was certainly a Trent Dilfer-ish "game manager" in that Bengals playoff game. He did not make any mistakes to cost them that game.

That said, his play was important in securing that playoff spot in Cincinnati. He had a solid drive, with a great long run, and capped with a great play and TD pass to Kevin Walter.

TJ Yates Game-Winning Drive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6sA-pWv9sc)

Now, don't get me wrong. This is not trying to make him a starter or even advocate anything, but I think he gets no credit around these parts, so I'm just trying to give him at least a little credit (that he deserves).

The 2011 season will most likely be the peak of his NFL career, so at least give him a little love while he's still a Houston Texan. He might be gone after this summer and be some other franchise's little Yates.

Tolar's Ghost
05-21-2014, 02:07 PM
LaCanfora speculates that Keenum will get a shot.....in Baltimore....

And that the legendary Brian Hoyer could end up with the Texans.

Who knows? But both are plausible.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24568928/influx-of-rookie-qbs-makes-veteran-arms-expendable----and-valuable

DocBar
05-21-2014, 02:12 PM
I was more interested in how our other offensive players and offensive scheme would adjust...........the type of offensive players left over, either because of injuries or questionable skills, couldn't.........and the offensive scheme wouldn't.Iagree that Kubiak did CK no favors. I hope Keenum comes out of camp the unquestioned starter and turns the NFL on its ear with superlative play. I just don't have very much confidence in that happening.

I'm at a point now where I support the 3 vets pretty much equally. I have no clue how they will perform because I have no clue what kind of offense BO'B is going to employ. I lean a bit towards Fitz because of his intelligence and ability to learn new systems. I have no real idea of CK or TJ's ability to do the same. :goodluck:

DocBar
05-21-2014, 02:23 PM
LaCanfora speculates that Keenum will get a shot.....in Baltimore....

And that the legendary Brian Hoyer could end up with the Texans.

Who knows? But both are plausible.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24568928/influx-of-rookie-qbs-makes-veteran-arms-expendable----and-valuableThere's no way that CK will ever play on another Kubiak team.:kubepalm:

Playoffs
05-21-2014, 02:53 PM
LaCanfora speculates that Keenum will get a shot.....in Baltimore.... And that the legendary Brian Hoyer could end up with the Texans.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24568928/influx-of-rookie-qbs-makes-veteran-arms-expendable----and-valuable

I dunno, just never got the feeling Gary was all that juiced about Keenum.

And why would Browns dump Hoyer before seeing how injury prone Manziel is?

AngryNateFTW
05-21-2014, 02:59 PM
I dunno, just never got the feeling Gary was all that juiced about Keenum.

And why would Browns dump Hoyer before seeing how injury prone Manziel is?

He played so well vs. Colts that he gave him a heart attack..

76Texan
05-21-2014, 03:02 PM
I just re watched the 6-13 loss to the Jags.
It doesn't take too long with NFL Rewind as you can jump right to each play with a click of the mouse.

Believe it or not, Keenum played well enough to win.
More than enough, actually.
His receivers failed him repeatedly; from Graham to Hopkins; even A.J.
And of course, Martin.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 03:05 PM
I dunno, just never got the feeling Gary was all that juiced about Keenum.

And why would Browns dump Hoyer before seeing how injury prone Manziel is?

I'm thinking Kubiak will scoop up either Yates or Keenum, whichever guy the Texans end up cutting.
It's not easy to find a minimum wage guy that has experience in his offense.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 03:07 PM
He played so well vs. Colts that he gave him a heart attack..

I wouldn't count the last two games to evaluate Keenum.
We all know the team has given up.

It's not a good idea.
Unless you want to release all the players and start anew.
LOL.

WolverineFan
05-21-2014, 03:19 PM
I just re watched the 6-13 loss to the Jags.
It doesn't take too long with NFL Rewind as you can jump right to each play with a click of the mouse.

Believe it or not, Keenum played well enough to win.
More than enough, actually.
His receivers failed him repeatedly; from Graham to Hopkins; even A.J.
And of course, Martin.

Obviously it is impossible to judge a performance just by the stats, but....

18/34 (52.9%) for 169 yards (4.9 ypa) with 0 TD's and 1 INT (completely on Martin IIRC). He had a QB Rating of 54.7 and a QBR of 14.4 for the game.

Even if the WR's let him down, that performance can't be solely blamed on them can it? He had at least something to do with it. In the 4th quarter of a one-score game he was....

7/14 (50%) for 64 yards (4.6 ypa) and 1 INT (not his fault IIRC).

The defense didn't play great (333 yards, 7/17 on 3rd down, 5.1 yards per play) but they did hold JAX to 13 pts. Enough to win. We scored 6. Not enough to win.

corytx8
05-21-2014, 03:29 PM
Obviously it is impossible to judge a performance just by the stats, but....



18/34 (52.9%) for 169 yards (4.9 ypa) with 0 TD's and 1 INT (completely on Martin IIRC). He had a QB Rating of 54.7 and a QBR of 14.4 for the game.



Even if the WR's let him down, that performance can't be solely blamed on them can it? He had at least something to do with it. In the 4th quarter of a one-score game he was....



7/14 (50%) for 64 yards (4.6 ypa) and 1 INT (not his fault IIRC).



The defense didn't play great (333 yards, 7/17 on 3rd down, 5.1 yards per play) but they did hold JAX to 13 pts. Enough to win. We scored 6. Not enough to win.


Really? Stats?

noxiousdog
05-21-2014, 03:33 PM
I hate comparing anyone to Brady, because Brady is a witch.

But here's a difference:
Keenum's first 4 games:
8 TD, 1 Int, 7.87 yards per attempt.

His last four games:
1 TD, 5 int, 6.05 ypa.

Brady 1st four starting:
5 TD, 0 int, 6.78 ypa

Brady last four rookie games:
2 TD, 5 int, 6.86 ypa

Brady did not suffer a significant drop-off with game film. Keenum was godawful.

santo
05-21-2014, 03:41 PM
I hate comparing anyone to Brady, because Brady is a witch.

But here's a difference:
Keenum's first 4 games:
8 TD, 1 Int, 7.87 yards per attempt.

His last four games:
1 TD, 5 int, 6.05 ypa.

Brady 1st four starting:
5 TD, 0 int, 6.78 ypa

Brady last four rookie games:
2 TD, 5 int, 6.86 ypa

Brady did not suffer a significant drop-off with game film. Keenum was godawful.

Brady also had a team going to the playoffs, while the Texans were trying to decide who was going to be the coach next season.

Keenum has one more chance if O'Brien doesn't cut him before preseason. At least then we can see if he learned anything from last year. If not, oh well.

HJam72
05-21-2014, 04:35 PM
No freaking way I would cut Keenum for at least another year. I'd want to see him through this preseason AND the next one. If he can't at least make #2 by then, oh well.

Tolar's Ghost
05-21-2014, 04:52 PM
pure speculation on his part.

That's why I wrote "LaCanfora speculates" (and not "LaCanfora reports").

Tolar's Ghost
05-21-2014, 05:02 PM
...the 6-13 loss to the Jags...

Some good points re Keenum.

And...Jayne Kennedy approves of your post:

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20072683,00.html

"One beaut came early in the fall, when Jayne read the scores in reverse order (as in "Lions 0, Bears 19")..."

DocBar
05-21-2014, 05:02 PM
Brady also had a team going to the playoffs, while the Texans were trying to decide who was going to be the coach next season.

Keenum has one more chance if O'Brien doesn't cut him before preseason. At least then we can see if he learned anything from last year. If not, oh well.

No freaking way I would cut Keenum for at least another year. I'd want to see him through this preseason AND the next one. If he can't at least make #2 by then, oh well.BO'B would be crazy to cut a QB before PS is over.

santo
05-21-2014, 05:09 PM
BO'B would be crazy to cut a QB before PS is over.

I don't think he will. Basically I would keep Keenum if he played just as good as Fitzpatrick. He's cheaper and wouldn't cost much to keep him as a backup, but I don't know if O'Brien will keep him after this year if he plays on par with Yates and Fitzpatrick.

badboy
05-21-2014, 05:13 PM
I just re watched the 6-13 loss to the Jags.
It doesn't take too long with NFL Rewind as you can jump right to each play with a click of the mouse.

Believe it or not, Keenum played well enough to win.
More than enough, actually.
His receivers failed him repeatedly; from Graham to Hopkins; even A.J.
And of course, Martin.
Didn't AJ drop two passes in that game? IIRC one was slightly away but even announcer said he should have got it.

Tolar's Ghost
05-21-2014, 05:24 PM
...Basically I would keep Keenum if he played just as good as Fitzpatrick...

If Keenum can't show as much as Fitzpatrick, he probably should "get on with his life's work" (to quote Chuck Noll), because the latter is the definition of mediocre.

O'Brien is really a brave man, or else a miracle worker, to go into his first NFL head-coaching season with this group of QBs.

DocBar
05-21-2014, 07:04 PM
I don't think he will. Basically I would keep Keenum if he played just as good as Fitzpatrick. He's cheaper and wouldn't cost much to keep him as a backup, but I don't know if O'Brien will keep him after this year if he plays on par with Yates and Fitzpatrick.Fitz isn't going anywhere, either. His money is gauranteed. It's either CK or TJ that will be the odd man out. No way there are 4 QB's the roster with as many needs there are at other positions.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:46 PM
Jags 13 Texans 6

1st drive
Keenum started the game with a quick 8-yd pass to Hopkins.
Hopkins bobbled the ball, but pulled it back in.
Unfortunately, he also stumbled and fell.
Could have been a first down; and if he can make the defenders miss, even more.


On 1-10, Jags rushed four.
Keenum wanted to go left, but had to pull the ball back when Myers was quickly beaten.
(LG was helping LT.)
Keenum scrambled out of harm way and dumped the ball to Tate for a 3-yd gain.

On 2nd down, Tate lost all of it on a negative 3-yd run.

On 3rd and 10, Jags rushed four.
Texans had six to protect and couldn't get the job done.
At the two-sec mark, Keenum saw AJ open on short slant, but had to take off as Brown got beat quickly.
(Perhaps, he was expecting Tate to help chip the DE?)
He could not step up the pocket as Newton was pushed ten yards deep in the pocket, right between the hash marks
(ie., right where Keenum needs to step up.)
This forced Keenum to scramble to his right (following AJ's route.)
However, on this side, Brooks couldn't stop the looping DT (it was really Newton's fault.
If Newton had done his job, Brook would have been OK.)
Being third down, Case tried to turn back around hoping to make a play.
It does not look like he had time to throw the ball away.
I'm pretty sure of it.
Being in the pocket, you have to throw the ball past the LOS toward AJ.
There's no way Keenum or any QB can do that.
But why throw the ball away on third down?
If he layed down, it's still a ten-to-eleven yard sack.
What with a few more yards?
Lechler is supposed to have a strong leg anyway.
(He only punted 41 yards to the Jags 34 on this one; however.)

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:46 PM
2nd drive

To be filled in later.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:47 PM
3rd drive.
After two runs, Keenum tried to connect with Graham on third and four, but the ball was batted away by the DT.
Jags rushed four; Texans protected with six.
Tate delayed his route to see if he needs to help out on the left side or not.
Smith got beat, Keenum couldn't hold the ball any longer.
The sad thing is that the Texans had Myers and Brook on the DT and they let him get to the ball.
I would have liked for Brooks to engage the defender stronger before releasing him to Myers (before looking to help out Newton.)

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:47 PM
2nd quarter
4th drive.
On first down, Smith got beat again, this time like a rag doll.
Keenum scrambled to his left and found DJ for 4.

After a 3-yd run, the Texans called a pass play.
Keenum was ready to pull the trigger at about the 2-1/2 sec mark but had to pull the ball back as a rusher was closing in on him.
The Jags only rushed 4.
Brown initially allowed the DE to penetrate inside, forcing Keenum to side step to his left.
As Brown lunged too far inside, the interior lineman was able to loop to the outside easily.
With four guys pursuing him - one was hanging onto him and pulling his back jersey - Keenum had to throw the ball away.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:48 PM
5th drive.
Keenum attempted a pass to AJ 17 yard downfield.
AJ had both hands on the ball, but couldn't hold on to it as the safety came down with a hit to jar the ball loose.
A good play by the safety.
By the way, Keenum couldn't wait any longer with Myers getting beat to the inside.
The DT's right hand was in his face right before the 3-sec mark.

On 2nd and 10, the Texans wanted a delayed screen pass to Tate, but I had no idea why Myers let his man go so early.
The guys was on Keenum in just a hair over 1 sec; Tate hadn't even made his turn yet.
Tate waited a second, faking like he was helping Brown before releasing.
The ball was right there, but as Tate did not have enough time to focus, he droppped the ball.

On third and 10, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Keenum went quickly to Graham.
Either it was a great play by the defender or he had an arm bar on Graham.
At any rate, there was no separation.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:49 PM
6th drive.
After 4 runs, Keenum sneaked for 2 and a first down.
Tate then got stopped for no gain.

On 2nd down, Keenum took a 9-yd sack as he did not realize that the LB was coming up on a blitz off the edge instead of dropping back into coverage.
Perhaps he simply missed it, or just maybe he was expecting Graham to block?
After all, Keenum did signal for Graham to move from left to right when he saw the original LB unlblocked.

On third and 19, the Jags rushed 4.
Keenum couldn't find anybody open downfield so he went with DJ for 9 to get into FG range at the 30.
It's better than holding on to the ball and leaving points on the field.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:49 PM
3rd quarterr

7th Drive.
Tate lost 3 yards on a run, but Keenum found Griffin for 37.
Only a shoestring tackle by the LB Hayes prevented a TD.

On the next play, his pass to AJ on the left side line was batted down by the DE.
It was a good individual effort by this guy, as he was pushed back handily by Brown.
Keenum needs to be at least 5 inches taller or he needs to have a longer arm to get that ball over.
The Jags sent a 5-man rush with Tate getting beat quickly.
Keenum got hit right after he released the ball.

On 2nd down, Keenum found Graham for 8 and DJ converted the third down with a 4-yd run.
Another run by DJ netted 12 yards.

On first down, the Texans were in the same 11 formation with Graham on the left.
The Jags sent a 6-man blitz which Keenum beat easily with a quick throw to Graham for 4.

DJ got stop for no gain, but on third down, Keenum connected with AJ for 15 on another 6-man blitz.

2 runs later, Keenum faced third and goal at the 2.
Hopkins, however, couldnt stay in bound on the right side.
He got pushed out of bound by the defender, which is legal with the current rule.
The pass was thrown right off the bat, to a spot.
Could Keenum make the throw a foot closer inside?
Maybe.
Could Hopkins stretch out with both feet together instead of spreading them wide apart?
Surely.
Could Hopkins dominate the CB with his physique to give himself more room to operate?
Definitely; he has the clear size advantage.
This is what he was drafted for.
To win it up high by dominating shorter and smaller CBs.
And this is Gratz, a 5'11 rookie third rounder that Hopkins was facing.
He needs to win this matchup every time.

After a 2-yd run by DJ, Keenum stepped up the pocket and connected with Graham for 7.
DJ tried two runs but came up an inch short of first down.
I wonder why Kubiak didn't use Tate here on third and short and fourth and short???

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:50 PM
9th drive.
Brown got beat too quickly, Keenum quickly found Tate for 6 on the RB screen.
This time, Tate didn't drop the ball.

On 2nd down, Newton got beat quickly, but Keenum was able to find Tate again for 7 and the first down.

On first down, Keenum's pass was nearly picked off.
I do not understand that throw; it was between Graham and AJ and right to the safety who dropped the ball.
Perhaps Keenum was expecting AJ to continue his route, but AJ sat down instead???
The ball was nowhere near either AJ or Graham.

On second down, Keenum beat the 5-man blitz with a 5-yd pass to Posey.

On third and 5, it was Hopkins' and Keenum's turns to miscommunicate.
As opposed to the pass to AJ earlier, this time the ball was thrown to the inside while Hopkins was looking to the outside.
Again, the ball was thrown before the receiver makes his break.
It was supposed to be thrown to a spot.
This time, with the CB backpedaling then turning his back to face the side line, I would think the inside is a better spot to throw the ball???
(In the back of the defender.)

76Texan
05-21-2014, 07:52 PM
10th drive
Keenum found Graham quickly for 6 as Newton got beat.

He found Graham again, but the TE droppped the pass that would have gained a first down.

On third down, Keenum delivered a pass to AJ for 21 before the pocket collapsed.

A short pass was turned into a 12-yd gain by KMart.

Keenum then spiked the ball to stop the clock at 51 second.

From the Jags 41, Keenum sent an easy pass to Hopkins at the 14-yd line.
Hopkins promptly dropped the ball.

On third down, the pocket disintegrated quickly on a 4-man pass rush.
Myers was pushed into Keenum's lap (9-yd deep).
Brook/Newton lost their battles on a twist designed to draw Newton inside (blocking Brook) while the DT looped around the edge.

Keenum chose KMart to dump the ball to.
This guy is supposed to have good hands and can get some YAC.
He did neither.
Instead, he boblled the ball trying to turn around too soon.
The ball caroomed off his hands and was intercepted by a defender.
Ball game.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 08:40 PM
LaCanfora speculates that Keenum will get a shot.....in Baltimore....

And that the legendary Brian Hoyer could end up with the Texans.

Who knows? But both are plausible.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24568928/influx-of-rookie-qbs-makes-veteran-arms-expendable----and-valuable

Baltimore picked up Keith Wenning (a better Flacco) in the 6th round. They have no need for Case Keenum.

I think we're waiting for Cassel to be cut by the Vikings. Other than that, we're going with what we got.

infantrycak
05-21-2014, 08:46 PM
I think we're waiting for Cassel to be cut by the Vikings.

Cassel, Henne and Fitzpatrick are not getting cut. Look at their contracts. They were signed for exactly the scenario of bringing in a new QB who would not be immediately ready.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 08:53 PM
TK had made most of the points for me.

The number of sacks he took are about the same as Brady in his first year (prorated).

The most important thing; though, is that Brady's defense allowed nearly ten fewer points per game.

That was not my point about the sacks. Though the numbers were the same, more or less, the amount of yards per sack were way out of wack for Case. Those, imo, are stupid plays. The kind of thing we'll be laughing about JFF doing in Cleveland.

That's poor QB play. Similar to taking a snap in the endzone & holding the ball for more than a second. Case did that. Similar to taking the snap at the two yard line & running back into the end zone... Case did that.

I understand looking for a big play, & I admire QBs that take chances. But the ones that stay in the NFL are the ones that take those chances & come out on top more times than not. I did not get that feeling from Case at any time in those last 8 games.

If you're down a score at the end of the game, with the ball in your hands, you need to get those points, you need to win that game. This wasn't 2010 when we'd have a lead & the defense would blow it. In 2013, we went into the 2nd half of most games with a lead, but with Keenum back there, I knew the chances of winning those games were nil. I knew we wouldn't be able to move the ball, or get defensive stops.

I don't get on Case for not winning, for the most part. I get on him for not giving us a chance to win. If you "know" that you can't move the ball in the second half, if you can't put points on the board in the second half, regardless how many you put up in the first, you have almost no chance of winning that game.

The second half, that's when the game gets real. That's when it counts. The closer you get to 0:00 in the 4th qtr, the more real it gets, the greater the pressure gets. Some people, some teams get better the closer you get to 0:00 (Andrew Luck & the Colts)... some don't.

Our team sucked the closer we got to 0:00. Case was not a shining light on that defense, he was part of the problem.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:19 PM
1st drive
Keenum started the game with a quick 8-yd pass to Hopkins.
Hopkins bobbled the ball, but pulled it back in.
Unfortunately, he also stumbled and fell.
Could have been a first down; and if he can make the defenders miss, even more.


On 1-10, Jags rushed four.
Keenum wanted to go left, but had to pull the ball back when Myers was quickly beaten.
(LG was helping LT.)
Keenum scrambled out of harm way and dumped the ball to Tate for a 3-yd gain.

On 2nd down, Tate lost all of it on a negative 3-yd run.

On 3rd and 10, Jags rushed four.
Texans had six to protect and couldn't get the job done.
At the two-sec mark, Keenum saw AJ open on short slant, but had to take off as Brown got beat quickly.
(Perhaps, he was expecting Tate to help chip the DE?)
He could not step up the pocket as Newton was pushed ten yards deep in the pocket, right between the hash marks
(ie., right where Keenum needs to step up.)
This forced Keenum to scramble to his right (following AJ's route.)
However, on this side, Brooks couldn't stop the looping DT (it was really Newton's fault.
If Newton had done his job, Brook would have been OK.)
Being third down, Case tried to turn back around hoping to make a play.
It does not look like he had time to throw the ball away.
I'm pretty sure of it.
Being in the pocket, you have to throw the ball past the LOS toward AJ.
There's no way Keenum or any QB can do that.
But why throw the ball away on third down?
If he layed down, it's still a ten-to-eleven yard sack.
What with a few more yards?
Lechler is supposed to have a strong leg anyway.
(He only punted 41 yards to the Jags 34 on this one; however.)
This drive stopped whether Case took a ten yard sack or a nineteen yards sack.
Even if he can magically throw the ball away, it is still a punt.

As it was the punt was downed at the Jags 34.
A better punt by Lechler, who is known for a booming leg would have the Jags at around the 25-29.

Not a big deal of field position to give up.
The risk was worth it to try to make a play.
JMO, of course.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:22 PM
3rd drive.
After two runs, Keenum tried to connect with Graham on third and four, but the ball was batted away by the DT.
Jags rushed four; Texans protected with six.
Tate delayed his route to see if he needs to help out on the left side or not.
Smith got beat, Keenum couldn't hold the ball any longer.
The sad thing is that the Texans had Myers and Brook on the DT and they let him get to the ball.
I would have liked for Brooks to engage the defender stronger before releasing him to Myers (before looking to help out Newton.)

Keenum was part of the problem, but with six to block 4, the blockers just have to do a better job.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:24 PM
2nd quarter
4th drive.
On first down, Smith got beat again, this time like a rag doll.
Keenum scrambled to his left and found DJ for 4.

After a 3-yd run, the Texans called a pass play.
Keenum was ready to pull the trigger at about the 2-1/2 sec mark but had to pull the ball back as a rusher was closing in on him.
The Jags only rushed 4.
Brown initially allowed the DE to penetrate inside, forcing Keenum to side step to his left.
As Brown lunged too far inside, the interior lineman was able to loop to the outside easily.
With four guys pursuing him - one was hanging onto him and pulling his back jersey - Keenum had to throw the ball away.
O-line problem.
Case did right by throwing the ball away.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:28 PM
5th drive.
Keenum attempted a pass to AJ 17 yard downfield.
AJ had both hands on the ball, but couldn't hold on to it as the safety came down with a hit to jar the ball loose.
A good play by the safety.
By the way, Keenum couldn't wait any longer with Myers getting beat to the inside.
The DT's right hand was in his face right before the 3-sec mark.

On 2nd and 10, the Texans wanted a delayed screen pass to Tate, but I had no idea why Myers let his man go so early.
The guys was on Keenum in just a hair over 1 sec; Tate hadn't even made his turn yet.
Tate waited a second, faking like he was helping Brown before releasing.
The ball was right there, but as Tate did not have enough time to focus, he droppped the ball.

On third and 10, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Keenum went quickly to Graham.
Either it was a great play by the defender or he had an arm bar on Graham.
At any rate, there was no separation.

Case did the right thing.
Either TE'S inability to get tion, good D, or a possible holding penalty by the defender.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:29 PM
6th drive.
After 4 runs, Keenum sneaked for 2 and a first down.
Tate then got stopped for no gain.

On 2nd down, Keenum took a 9-yd sack as he did not realize that the LB was coming up on a blitz off the edge instead of dropping back into coverage.
Perhaps he simply missed it, or just maybe he was expecting Graham to block?
After all, Keenum did signal for Graham to move from left to right when he saw the original LB unlblocked.

On third and 19, the Jags rushed 4.
Keenum couldn't find anybody open downfield so he went with DJ for 9 to get into FG range at the 30.
It's better than holding on to the ball and leaving points on the field.

Case did the right thing.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 09:30 PM
This drive stopped whether Case took a ten yard sack or a nineteen yards sack.
Even if he can magically throw the ball away, it is still a punt.

As it was the punt was downed at the Jags 34.
A better punt by Lechler, who is known for a booming leg would have the Jags at around the 25-29.

Not a big deal of field position to give up.
The risk was worth it to try to make a play.
JMO, of course.

This is called rationalization. Bad decisions are bad decisions & should be called out as bad decisions.

Everybody makes bad decisions, even that is not the problem. But when he makes several in one game... it's a problem.

Like I said before, doesn't matter whether we think Keenum "deserves" another shot or not. He's getting it. In your opinion, he only has to work on little things to become a viable starter. In my opinion, he's got to get a lot better in a lot of the fundamental decision making streams needed to play the game at the speed it's played to the level we need for him to become a viable starter.

If Case is thinking like you, I don't look for him to be on this team when the lights come on. If he's thinking like me, he'll most likely win the job for years to come.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:31 PM
3rd quarterr

7th Drive.

After a 2-yd run by DJ, Keenum stepped up the pocket and connected with Graham for 7.
DJ tried two runs but came up an inch short of first down.
I wonder why Kubiak didn't use Tate here on third and short and fourth and short???

Not Case's problem.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:33 PM
This is called rationalization. Bad decisions are bad decisions & should be called out as bad decisions.

Everybody makes bad decisions, even that is not the problem. But when he makes several in one game... it's a problem.

Like I said before, doesn't matter whether we think Keenum "deserves" another shot or not. He's getting it. In your opinion, he only has to work on little things to become a viable starter. In my opinion, he's got to get a lot better in a lot of the fundamental decision making streams needed to play the game at the speed it's played to the level we need for him to become a viable starter.

If Case is thinking like you, I don't look for him to be on this team when the lights come on. If he's thinking like me, he'll most likely win the job for years to come.
What do you think Case needs to do here?

The only way is a ten yard sack.
I want my QB to try to make play in this situation as a learning process.

NCTexan
05-21-2014, 09:34 PM
I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:34 PM
9th drive.
Brown got beat too quickly, Keenum quickly found Tate for 6 on the RB screen.
This time, Tate didn't drop the ball.

On 2nd down, Newton got beat quickly, but Keenum was able to find Tate again for 7 and the first down.

On first down, Keenum's pass was nearly picked off.
I do not understand that throw; it was between Graham and AJ and right to the safety who dropped the ball.
Perhaps Keenum was expecting AJ to continue his route, but AJ sat down instead???
The ball was nowhere near either AJ or Graham.

On second down, Keenum beat the 5-man blitz with a 5-yd pass to Posey.

On third and 5, it was Hopkins' and Keenum's turns to miscommunicate.
As opposed to the pass to AJ earlier, this time the ball was thrown to the inside while Hopkins was looking to the outside.
Again, the ball was thrown before the receiver makes his break.
It was supposed to be thrown to a spot.
This time, with the CB backpedaling then turning his back to face the side line, I would think the inside is a better spot to throw the ball???
(In the back of the defender.)

They need more time together to get on the same page.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 09:35 PM
I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

I wish he was around when we were bickering about Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. That would have been interesting. But now, he's locked in to one guy & there are no other possibilities.

Only one right way.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:36 PM
10th drive
Keenum found Graham quickly for 6 as Newton got beat.

He found Graham again, but the TE droppped the pass that would have gained a first down.

On third down, Keenum delivered a pass to AJ for 21 before the pocket collapsed.

A short pass was turned into a 12-yd gain by KMart.

Keenum then spiked the ball to stop the clock at 51 second.

From the Jags 41, Keenum sent an easy pass to Hopkins at the 14-yd line.
Hopkins promptly dropped the ball.

On third down, the pocket disintegrated quickly on a 4-man pass rush.
Myers was pushed into Keenum's lap (9-yd deep).
Brook/Newton lost their battles on a twist designed to draw Newton inside (blocking Brook) while the DT looped around the edge.

Keenum chose KMart to dump the ball to.
This guy is supposed to have good hands and can get some YAC.
He did neither.
Instead, he boblled the ball trying to turn around too soon.
The ball caroomed off his hands and was intercepted by a defender.
Ball game.
Not Case's problem.
If KMart made the routine catch for 4 or 5 yards, there's still 4th down.

OLINE problem again .

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 09:38 PM
What do you think Case needs to do here?

The only way is a ten yard sack.
I want my QB to try to make play in this situation as a learning process.

I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:39 PM
I wish he was around when we were bickering about Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. That would have been interesting. But now, he's locked in to one guy & there are no other possibilities.

Only one right way.

All I ever said is Keenum get an Incomplete grade.
He will have to battle it out in camp to make the roster or h gets cut.

I just don't like players to be made worse than they are.

That's always me.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:41 PM
I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

I said he doesn't have time to throw the ball away.
He will risk a penalty (for not getting the ball past the LOS), an INT, or a fumble as the defender was right there.

He was still in the pocket.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 09:43 PM
I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

Thanks, man.

Whether we agree on things; it's better to have things laid down clearly.

NCTexan
05-21-2014, 09:53 PM
Thanks, man.

Whether we agree on things; it's better to have things laid down clearly.

Agreed. And as long as everyone disagrees civilly, I really don't have an issue. In the end player evaluation is imperfect.

I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:03 PM
2nd drive
Texans went play action, but the Jags didn't buy.
With a guy boring on him from the front, Case nearly connected with Griffin fifteen yards downfield.
The ball was fit right where it needs to be between three defenders.
Could have been hitting a defenless receiver that was not called.
Graham very slow getting up after the cut block did not allow an easy outlet for Keenum.

On second down, with the pocket quickly collapsing, Keenum found Tate for 7.

On third and 3,
Keenum threw the ball to a spot (before AJ made his break).
This is similar to a play mentioned to Hopkins.
The QB zigged, while the receiver zagged.
Just need to be on the same page.

eriadoc
05-21-2014, 10:08 PM
I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth. Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.

And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe. ;)

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:08 PM
Agreed. And as long as everyone disagrees civilly, I really don't have an issue. In the end player evaluation is imperfect.

I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

As I saw in this game, there were only two plays in question.
The one that I insisted Case did not have time to throw the ball away.
Best he could have done was to go fetal and took less of a loss.
It wasn't critical anyway with Lechler as the punter.

The other one; let's assume that he missed the blitzer.
That was odd, since he did call for the TE to switch side to deal with it.
Whether the defender drop back or not, Case already recognized that he (the defender) was there.
Why he didn't take a quick look, I don't know.
He often does that; it's very uncharacteristic of him there.
I've seen him in those situations in college many times before.

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:10 PM
As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth. Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.

And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe. ;)

Favre, the SAFE.

LOL, that would be the end of the world.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 10:24 PM
I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

I'm pulling for the kid. Those TD passes to Andre had me sold.


Until I see someone else heave three TDs to Andre in a game, like those (where Andre went & got them), he's number one on my list. I just want to see better decisions. There's got to be one guy out there at all times with his head on right, pointing in the right direction. Works better for us if that guy is the QB & last year, I don't think he was.

As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth.


That doesn't work with the, "we lost 7 games by 7 points or less" story line.


Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.


Now it's starting to feel like David Carr up in here. How many players do we have to put around him? Duane Brown, Chris Meyers, Andre Johnson, DeAndre Hopkins, & as far as I can tell, every body likes Brandon Brooks. That's five out of 10 (not counting the QB) quality starters.

Right now, this conversation, all I'm talking about is moving the ball in the second half. Putting some points on the board, avoiding getting swept by the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Do we need probowlers at every position to win a single game?


And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe. ;)

I want him, any QB really, to make the plays he knows he can make & not attempt the ones he doesn't know if he can or can't. I don't want him to "try" anything.

I understand sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But when we look back at a young Tom Brady, we don't remember a lot of the plays he couldn't make (tuck rule is the only one that comes to mind). We only remember the ones he made. Not because he didn't fail on some, but because he succeeded on so many more.

Had Case fumbled the ball once in the endzone (or close to the goal line) I'd have forgotten it by now. But he did it twice, both times because, imo, he was slow to realize the ball had to be gone.

Had he taken one 15+ yard sack, maybe two... I'd have forgotten about it, but he took 19 sacks for 201 yards. That's ridiculous. We can't send a guy out there with that kind of average. Well, we shouldn't.

After that second time, he should have realized... "that's not going to win me a job anywhere. I need to stop making those decisions & make more of the ones that worked." Or simply, "Running backwards, bad. Running laterally or forward... good."

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:32 PM
I remember quite a few sacks Schaub took because he didn't see the unblocked Blitzer off the edge.

That was after Schaub had been in the league for a while.
I believe we still saw it in his second year with the Texans.

They should have cut that dude a long time ago, LOL.

CloakNNNdagger
05-21-2014, 10:33 PM
As I saw in this game, there were only two plays in question.
The one that I insisted Case did not have time to throw the ball away.
Best he could have done was to go fetal and took less of a loss.
It wasn't critical anyway with Lechler as the punter.

The other one; let's assume that he missed the blitzer.
That was odd, since he did call for the TE to switch side to deal with it.
Whether the defender drop back or not, Case already recognized that he (the defender) was there.
Why he didn't take a quick look, I don't know.
He often does that; it's very uncharacteristic of him there.
I've seen him in those situations in college many times before.

Thanks for your great breakdown.........always appreciated. MSR

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:35 PM
I seem to recall Tony Romo with a few bonehead plays after he had played several years.

Favreau was famous for that; so was Warren Moon.

I mean how do these guys not get cut?

TEXANRED
05-21-2014, 10:43 PM
No. No he is not.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 10:45 PM
I remember quite a few sacks Schaub took because he didn't see the unblocked Blitzer off the edge.

That was after Schaub had been in the league for a while.
I believe we still saw it in his second year with the Texans.

They should have cut that dude a long time ago, LOL.

If that's what you're getting out of what I said, then we're just speaking a different language.

I seem to recall Tony Romo with a few bonehead plays after he had played several years.

Favreau was famous for that; so was Warren Moon.

I mean how do these guys not get cut?

Again, you appear to be talking to two different people. All I said was that he did nothing to stop us from taking a QB in the first three rounds & that he does not "deserve" to start.

However, if he does not beat Fitzpatrick (& with your knowledge you should know it's far easier than not) he should be let go. We should move on.

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 10:49 PM
double post

76Texan
05-21-2014, 10:49 PM
If that's what you're getting out of what I said, then we're just speaking a different language.

Some not the best QBS made stupid plays even deep into their careers.
Keenum needs to make more plays to compensate the mistakes he made.

That is why he's not given the starting job by OB.

Does it sound like I don't understand you, TK?

thunderkyss
05-21-2014, 10:52 PM
Some not the best QBS made stupid plays even deep into their careers.
Keenum needs to make more plays to compensate the mistakes he made.

That is why he's not given the starting job by OB.

Does it sound like I don't understand you, TK?

This, yes. Wondering why we didn't cut Schaub because he failed on a few occasions out of many to not pick up a free blitzer, not so much.

It's not about making stupid plays either, it's about not making enough positive plays.

Hervoyel
05-21-2014, 10:56 PM
I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

Because he's a first time starter who doesn't know any better and he thinks that if he doesn't make it happen he's done in this league. Just a classic case of trying to do too much. He isn't the first player to do that nor will he be the last. What I want to see is what you want to see out of Keenum now. Did he learn anything?

thunderkyss
05-22-2014, 12:16 AM
Because he's a first time starter who doesn't know any better and he thinks that if he doesn't make it happen he's done in this league. Just a classic case of trying to do too much. He isn't the first player to do that nor will he be the last. What I want to see is what you want to see out of Keenum now. Did he learn anything?

I'd have felt better about it had he learned it sometime during the 8 games he started.

To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).

I don't think I'm asking too much. I'm questioning the decisions this kid made & imo, this is an example of where he made the wrong decision time & time again. Red Flag... that's all I'm saying.

Again, I want the kid to succeed more than any QB on our roster at this time. The only thing that I argue is that he "deserves" a chance to prove that he can play better than he did last year. Yes, he was on a bad team last year. But that bad team had a bad QB, bad even for a rookie.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 12:33 AM
Terry Bradshaw started 8 games his rookie year.
He played in 14 games.
Bradshaw got credited for 3 wins.
In those wins, his lines are as followed:

A seven to three win over the Oilers
8 of 17 for 208 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs - 3 rushes for 1 yard

A 23-3 win
3 of 12 for 24 yards, no TD nor INT - 2 rushes for 18 yards.

A 21-10 win
4-12 for 40 yards, no TD nor INT - 3 rushes for 15 yards.

For the year, he completed 38% of his passes (83-218) for 1,410 yards, 6 TDs and 24 INTs

In his second year, he improved the numbers to 54.4% (203-373), 2259 yards, 13 TDS and 22 INTs.

In his third year, it was 47.73% for 1,887 yards, 12 TDs, 12 Ints.


It is quite common, much more common than people realize.
Check out Brees' number in his second and third years.
They were worse than Keenum's

Check out Favre, Tarkenton, Bledsoe, Cunningham, Elway, Fouts, Griese Sr., Archie Manning, Eli, McNair, Moon (NfL), Alex Smith, Theisman to name a fews.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 12:38 AM
I'd have felt better about it had he learned it sometime during the 8 games he started.

To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).

I don't think I'm asking too much. I'm questioning the decisions this kid made & imo, this is an example of where he made the wrong decision time & time again. Red Flag... that's all I'm saying.

Again, I want the kid to succeed more than any QB on our roster at this time. The only thing that I argue is that he "deserves" a chance to prove that he can play better than he did last year. Yes, he was on a bad team last year. But that bad team had a bad QB, bad even for a rookie.

How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.

Remember that Noles was one QB I said I like when a poster asked for my opinion in the college section.
I said he just needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner, something he obviously worked on quite well.

thunderkyss
05-22-2014, 12:40 AM
Terry Bradshaw started 8 games his rookie year.
He played in 14 games.
Bradshaw got credited for 3 wins.
In those wins, his lines are as followed:

A seven to three win over the Oilers
8 of 17 for 208 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs - 3 rushes for 1 yard

A 23-3 win
3 of 12 for 24 yards, no TD nor INT - 2 rushes for 18 yards.

A 21-10 win
4-12 for 40 yards, no TD nor INT - 3 rushes for 15 yards.

For the year, he completed 38% of his passes (83-218) for 1,410 yards, 6 TDs and 24 INTs

In his second year, he improved the numbers to 54.4% (203-373), 2259 yards, 13 TDS and 22 INTs.

In his third year, it was 47.73% for 1,887 yards, 12 TDs, 12 Ints.


It is quite common, much more common than people realize.
Check out Brees' number in his second and third years.
They were worse than Keenum's

Check out Favre, Tarkenton, Bledsoe, Cunningham, Elway, Fouts, Griese Sr., Archie Manning, Eli, McNair, Moon (NfL), Alex Smith, Theisman to name a fews.

Yeah, I think we've all agreed that we could overlook a lot of Keenum's faults had he won a game. Had he won three, we'd be talking about a Super Bowl appearance in 2014.

thunderkyss
05-22-2014, 12:42 AM
How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.

Remember that Noles was one QB I said I like when a poster asked for my opinion in the college section.
I said he just needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner, something he obviously worked on quite well.

Fales? David Fales?

Anyway, Keenum is going to get another shot. All he has to do is beat out Ryan Fitpatrick. I'd be thrilled if I were a Keenumite. No doubt in my mind that he's going to win the starting job.

I'm just not going to waste a lot of time trying to convince anyone he wasn't "that bad"

76Texan
05-22-2014, 12:42 AM
Yeah, I think we've all agreed that we could overlook a lot of Keenum's faults had he won a game. Had he won three, we'd be talking about a Super Bowl appearance in 2014.

Are we starting to speak different languages again? LOL.

Got to run, dude.

Working tomorrow.

DocBar
05-22-2014, 02:05 AM
That was not my point about the sacks. Though the numbers were the same, more or less, the amount of yards per sack were way out of wack for Case. Those, imo, are stupid plays. The kind of thing we'll be laughing about JFF doing in Cleveland.

That's poor QB play. Similar to taking a snap in the endzone & holding the ball for more than a second. Case did that. Similar to taking the snap at the two yard line & running back into the end zone... Case did that.

I understand looking for a big play, & I admire QBs that take chances. But the ones that stay in the NFL are the ones that take those chances & come out on top more times than not. I did not get that feeling from Case at any time in those last 8 games.

If you're down a score at the end of the game, with the ball in your hands, you need to get those points, you need to win that game. This wasn't 2010 when we'd have a lead & the defense would blow it. In 2013, we went into the 2nd half of most games with a lead, but with Keenum back there, I knew the chances of winning those games were nil. I knew we wouldn't be able to move the ball, or get defensive stops.

I don't get on Case for not winning, for the most part. I get on him for not giving us a chance to win. If you "know" that you can't move the ball in the second half, if you can't put points on the board in the second half, regardless how many you put up in the first, you have almost no chance of winning that game.

The second half, that's when the game gets real. That's when it counts. The closer you get to 0:00 in the 4th qtr, the more real it gets, the greater the pressure gets. Some people, some teams get better the closer you get to 0:00 (Andrew Luck & the Colts)... some don't.

Our team sucked the closer we got to 0:00. Case was not a shining light on that defense, he was part of the problem.The bolded should be easy fixes. It's much harder to teach a QB to stand in the pocket/hold the ball than throw it away/ROB. I'll take a 10 + yd sack over throwing the ball away or ROB at the 1st signs of pressure. That's soooo David Carr. :fans:

Goatcheese
05-22-2014, 02:24 AM
If anything, Keenum is the exact opposite of KJ and Myers. Their first few games with the Texans were nothing short of abysmal. But 8 games in they had made some strides that had people thinking they could develop into quality players.

Keenum came out with both guns blazing and wowed a lot of people and then had a dismal stretch where he threw for under 5 YPA and got benched twice. He was getting worse every game and making people think he can't handle the speed and complexity of the NFL.

LikeMike
05-22-2014, 06:07 AM
I think we can all agree on something: there should be an open QB competition in camp. People that are wanting to see Keenum want him to win that competition and earn the starting job. People who are argueing against him just doubt his abilities to beat out Fitzpatrick and maybe also Savage.

He won`t be cut before that competition, OB would be stupid to do so. There is a lot to like about Keenum and he was in a pretty bad position last season. But saying he didn`t get his chance is stupid. Heīs got a bigger chance than probably 99% of all other UDFA. And he`s earned his chance to get another fair shot in training camp. Nothing more than that so far.

thunderkyss
05-22-2014, 06:28 AM
Heīs got a bigger chance than probably 99% of all other UDFA. And he`s earned his chance to get another fair shot in training camp. Nothing more than that so far.

better than 99% of fourth rounders. So has Fitzpatrick.

eriadoc
05-22-2014, 10:19 AM
If anything, Keenum is the exact opposite of KJ and Myers. Their first few games with the Texans were nothing short of abysmal. But 8 games in they had made some strides that had people thinking they could develop into quality players.

Keenum came out with both guns blazing and wowed a lot of people and then had a dismal stretch where he threw for under 5 YPA and got benched twice. He was getting worse every game and making people think he can't handle the speed and complexity of the NFL.

That's my concern. The long sacks don't bother me outside of the flow of the game. They bothered me at the time, and I cussed him just like everyone else. But when you step back and think about it, that sort of thing stemmed from a bigger problem, and is completely correctable. The rest? Not so sure.

NCTexan
05-22-2014, 10:53 AM
How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.


Andrew Luck had a pretty bad oline in front of him (he got sacked more) and he wasn't getting sacked for 10/yards a time.

Don't pretend like every other teams oline is perfect.

steelbtexan
05-22-2014, 11:22 AM
Great post, Herv! I believe Keenum will get his fair chance to compete for the starting role.......and that is all I would ask for. Last year, Keenum wasn't just simply thrown into the fire...............he was thrown into Hell.

http://images.christianpost.com/blog/full/12243/lake-of-fire.jpg?w=350&h=257

Great pic

This is all I want too.

It seems as though Keenums biggest weakness is blitz recognition. BOB along with the experience Keenum got last yr should help with this deficiency. If Keenum gets a fair shot I expect Keenum to win the starting QB job. Is he a franchise QB probably not. (As TK said the Texans should keep looking) Can he be a serviceable starter until a franchise QB can be found? (Probably)

I will trust BOB's opinion over the MB's haters that

A. Wanted Bridgewater or bust and felt the need to denigrate every QB not named Bridgewater.
B. Manziel or bust guys for the same reasons as above.
C. Kubiak lovers who needed somebody to blame for Kubiak's failings after 8 yrs as HC.

I'm rooting for the best QB for the future of the Texans to win the job. If that means throwing Savage into the fire game 1 so be it. If that means starting Keenum/Fitz/Yates I'm good with that too. Although if BOB goes starting the backup QB route 1st and bringing in Savage later I will be rooting for Keenum. I'm just glad a competent HC with an open mind will be making that call and not the MB/Fanbase.

heymak
05-22-2014, 02:03 PM
It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Keenum wins the starting job. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Fitz/Yates/Savage won the starting job, either.

All I expect is honest, open competition and the best man wins. No favoritism.

I think we'll see this scenario at every position. I don't expect to see a lot of loyalty from the coaching staff. They didn't draft the vets on this team. That should improve the overall play of the team. imo.

I'd really like to see Keenum succeed, but this is what I really want see at training camp too.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 03:44 PM
Andrew Luck had a pretty bad oline in front of him (he got sacked more) and he wasn't getting sacked for 10/yards a time.

Don't pretend like every other teams oline is perfect.

Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.

But my point about all sacks not being equal was supposed to be meant in a different way.
It's going to be hard to elaborate, but at least, let me try to start.

Greg Bedard from SI wrote a year-long series with title that goes something like "Film room MMQB - Pressure Point".

You can read up on his method of grading.
He gave different grade for a sack caused by the QB holding on to the ball too long, for example; which is logical.

By the same token, I figure that he doesn't penalize an O-line man when the QB hold on to the ball.

And so, Bedard has a chart to grade each O-line weekly.

At the end of week 6, before Keenum's debut, the Texans O-line was graded ahead of 11 teams in pass pro.

By the end of week 15 (game 14), Keenum's last start, the Texans pass pro had deteriorated further such that they only ranked ahead of 5 teams (cumultatively.)

In another word, Keenum's pass protection was at best, 6th worst in the league.
At worst, his pass protection might have been the worse.
(I don't know of a good way to separate his grades to determine between worst and 6th worst. )

The one definitive thing is that it was horrible.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 03:51 PM
Another way to prorate the sack numbers is per pass attempt, even though that still has a flaw.

Keenum was sacked 19 times in 253 pass attempts.
Luck was sacked 32 times in 570 pass attempts.

If we were to prorate, Keenum would have been sacked 42.8 times in 570 pass attempts.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 04:05 PM
My next point, also based on Bedard ' s analysis of QB's pressure, is that Keenum had made stride on avoiding sacks.

In his first game, he took 5 sacks (whether they are.justified or not) on 30 pass plays (25 pass attempts plus the 5 sacks; let's not count the time he took off and ran due to pressure.)

For the rest of his games, he took 14 sacks on 242 pass plays (228 attempts plus the 14 sacks.)

If he kept on his way of taking 5 sacks for every 30 pass plays, he would have ended up with 54 sacks altogether - if my calculation is correct.

So I don't understand the thought of regressing.
It looks to me like he was doing exactly what TK wanted him to do, which is to get rid of the ball, instead of trying to do too much.

NCTexan
05-22-2014, 04:05 PM
Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.


Sorry, I was referring to Luck's rookie season since people want to include Keenum as a rookie since he only had a year on the practice squad.

So Luck had 41 sacks for 246 yards (6 yards/sack) [credit to TK].

I think it becomes pretty obvious (especially if you look at the rest of TK's numbers) that Keenum made his sacks longer than everyone else did. No one else was close to 10 yards a sack in their first starts.


To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).


I'm not saying Keenum can't be the guy for us, or at least a reasonable stop gap. But he has a lot more work to do than some seem to be saying.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 04:15 PM
Luck took 41 sacks on 627 pass attempts (668 pass plays).
That is also much fewer than Keenum's numbers prorated.

He did a good job, still.
But let's not forget about his INTS (rookie season.)

I don't argue that Luck had a good rookie season.
He did.
And he does better his second year, in my book, with a better O-line, and he was asked to do less.

He's a very good QB.

76Texan
05-22-2014, 04:31 PM
If anybody has some time before I do, I'd like to take a look at all the sacks he took.

For example, I took a quick "re-look" at the five sacks in the KC game.
They aren't all horrendous.

Most were on third down where throwing the ball away does the offense no good.

Unless he gives up FG position, loses the ball on a fumble trying to do too much, those sacks don't bother me.

Yes, he did some of the things I mentioned, but not at an alarming rate.

Basically, for a first time starter, IMHO, Keenum played a smaller part in losing games for the Texans.
If I was to divide the "blames" (taking into account the importance of the QB'S role), I still think Keenum was less of a problem than pretty much all other facets of the team, with a very few exceptions individually.

I'm not sold on Keenum being the guy either, but I do believe that he can be at least, a very good backup.

thunderkyss
05-22-2014, 08:15 PM
Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.

But my point about all sacks not being equal was supposed to be meant in a different way.
It's going to be hard to elaborate, but at least, let me try to start.


Let me try to explain my "grading system"

Andrew Luck was sacked 32 times in 16 games. Nobody cares because the team he led won 11 games.

Case Keenum was sacked 19 times in 8 games. Nobody cares because his team won 0 games.

It's a team sport & all that, but the QB is the leader. Not that it's his fault that we lost 8 games, but they're sure as heck blaming him for not winning 1. Especially when so many of them were so close.

Yeah, Bullock missed that field goal which would have propped Keenum up to Tom Brady status. It sux, but that's the way it goes.

CloakNNNdagger
05-24-2014, 08:11 AM
When Keenum was allowed some poetic license, and still had some pieces to work with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eMhdXZAi6cI

thunderkyss
05-24-2014, 12:47 PM
When Keenum was allowed some poetic license, and still had some pieces to work with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eMhdXZAi6cI

Yeah, Case Keenum gave'em hell in the first half... sometimes even into the third qtr. if I were brought in as the head coach of that team, I could see improving the run game to help close out games.

Improve that LG position, upgrade at TE & FB... um-hmm....


Championship.

klockWork
05-24-2014, 04:54 PM
Schaub, in his worst season ever, won two games. He took 21 sacks for 162 yards.

As a first time starter, Schaub only took 16 sacks for 126 yards, finished with an 87.2 passer rating, & he punished teams for blitzing him.

If Shaub can run backwards as fast as Case could I'm sure those sack loss would be much higher.

PapaL
05-24-2014, 05:01 PM
I
If Shaub can run backwards as fast as Case could I'm sure those sack loss would be much higher.


If Case could read a blitz as fast as Schaub could I'm sure those sacks would've been much less.

klockWork
05-24-2014, 07:21 PM
If Case could read a blitz as fast as Schaub could I'm sure those sacks would've been much less.
If Case could read a blitz as fast as Schaub there would be more pick 6s.

amazing80
05-24-2014, 09:18 PM
Im all for Case, but reality is he did struggle vs the blitz and never really seemed to improve. Seeing a hot read and making the throw in an all out blitz is vital in the nfl and he never seemed to be able to do it. We will see what happens under BOB. Good luck to all the qbs, we need someone to step up!

76Texan
05-24-2014, 09:54 PM
Let me try to explain my "grading system"

Andrew Luck was sacked 32 times in 16 games. Nobody cares because the team he led won 11 games.

Case Keenum was sacked 19 times in 8 games. Nobody cares because his team won 0 games.

It's a team sport & all that, but the QB is the leader. Not that it's his fault that we lost 8 games, but they're sure as heck blaming him for not winning 1. Especially when so many of them were so close.

Yeah, Bullock missed that field goal which would have propped Keenum up to Tom Brady status. It sux, but that's the way it goes.

I'm sure all the guys like Bradshaw, Tarkenton, Elway, Fouts, Eli, et al are glad that their coaches didn't have the same grading system you do, TK.

corytx8
05-24-2014, 09:58 PM
Im all for Case, but reality is he did struggle vs the blitz and never really seemed to improve. Seeing a hot read and making the throw in an all out blitz is vital in the nfl and he never seemed to be able to do it. We will see what happens under BOB. Good luck to all the qbs, we need someone to step up!


Was he even allowed to make hot reads and adjustments?

htownfan32
05-24-2014, 10:02 PM
I will give credit to UH and Case Keenum fans, y'all have a lot of capacity for hope.

If he is the guy to lead us, then I wish him all the luck in the world. If he's not... eh. Nothing lost for me.

76Texan
05-24-2014, 10:05 PM
Im all for Case, but reality is he did struggle vs the blitz and never really seemed to improve. Seeing a hot read and making the throw in an all out blitz is vital in the nfl and he never seemed to be able to do it. We will see what happens under BOB. Good luck to all the qbs, we need someone to step up!

All young QBs starting for the first time in the NFL need some work in certain aspects of their game.

Think of the 18 INTs Luck threw his rookie year.
And I've mentioned I noted at least five should have been INTS and 5 near misses or so in his gist six games (I didn't watch the rest of his games in detail so I don't know whether there were other drops and/or near-misses.)

Wilson, on the other hand, needed to make plays often with his feet. Some of those occasions were because he didn't make the correct reads in order to get the ball out on time.

Even veterans miss their reads at times.
Schaub for example, missed some CB blitzes that resulted in sacks.
If I remember correctly, he got hurt on one of those occasions.

corytx8
05-24-2014, 10:08 PM
Was he even allowed to make hot reads and adjustments?


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105153

76Texan
05-24-2014, 10:22 PM
I will give credit to UH and Case Keenum fans, y'all have a lot of capacity for hope.

If he is the guy to lead us, then I wish him all the luck in the world. If he's not... eh. Nothing lost for me.

Hey, I also said pre-draft that I have no problem taking JFF in the third.
If not for off - the field question mark, I would have taken him in the second.
Then, I was even willing to take him at 2.1

I like him as a QB; however his style of play has a good percentage of getting him hurt and he might not be able to adjust to play within the pocket with as great proficiency as he did in college.

Those are the risks I would rather not take in the first round.

If I was a coach and/or GM, I would hope that either Keenum or Savage can play up to a certain level of proficiency so I can use a future first round on an offensive weapon or to build the O-line.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Thorn
05-24-2014, 11:00 PM
So, who's all for waiting for training camp and pre-season to sort all this out? Anyone?

Then again, what's the fun in that?

DocBar
05-24-2014, 11:40 PM
So, who's all for waiting for training camp and pre-season to sort all this out? Anyone?

Then again, what's the fun in that?I'm all about letting training camp and preseason sorting this out. I'm still going to "discuss" it ad nauseam.
:fans:

leebigeztx
05-25-2014, 03:11 AM
All young QBs starting for the first time in the NFL need some work in certain aspects of their game.

Think of the 18 INTs Luck threw his rookie year.
And I've mentioned I noted at least five should have been INTS and 5 near misses or so in his gist six games (I didn't watch the rest of his games in detail so I don't know whether there were other drops and/or near-misses.)

Wilson, on the other hand, needed to make plays often with his feet. Some of those occasions were because he didn't make the correct reads in order to get the ball out on time.

Even veterans miss their reads at times.
Schaub for example, missed some CB blitzes that resulted in sacks.
If I remember correctly, he got hurt on one of those occasions.

Trying to compare luck to keenum is not a good look. Even though luclk has been middle of the road stat wise, he makes game winning plays. Indy has really nothing specialmin terms of talent. Avg run game and stopping the run. Avg o-line and d-line,but luck makes plays. Keenan, if he had something, he shouldve been able to win a game despitebwhats going on. 1 game,thats it. Case couldnt even do that. I dont see these kinda threads for yates and he beat cincy on the road .He took the team downfield in a 2 minute drill and got it done.

thunderkyss
05-25-2014, 08:24 AM
All young QBs starting for the first time in the NFL need some work in certain aspects of their game.


Trying to compare luck to keenum is not a good look. Even though luclk has been middle of the road stat wise, he makes game winning plays.

So what are we really saying?

I think 76Texan has a point. All young QBs struggle in one way or another. I can see a coach looking at Case & thinking, "I can win with that."

At the same time I agree with leebigeztx... there were moments when the ball was in Case's hands & he simply did not make the plays needed to win the game. We lost several games by 3 or less, a few more by 7 or less.

Maybe there was one where Case made the plays, only to be let down by the fat Hobbit.

Then again, if Arian can come back & be that closer he was... or if Prosch & Blue can close out games... maybe Case can be "enough" for now. (Maybe Tj can)

EllisUnit
05-25-2014, 09:43 AM
Trying to compare luck to keenum is not a good look. Even though luclk has been middle of the road stat wise, he makes game winning plays. Indy has really nothing specialmin terms of talent. Avg run game and stopping the run. Avg o-line and d-line,but luck makes plays. Keenan, if he had something, he shouldve been able to win a game despitebwhats going on. 1 game,thats it. Case couldnt even do that. I dont see these kinda threads for yates and he beat cincy on the road .He took the team downfield in a 2 minute drill and got it done.

Think of all the talent Yates had to work with, that was easily the most talented team the texans have ever had. In Keenums first start we had 0 running backs, we had greg jones playing running back, we had one TE.

We all know how much defenses respect Foster, and how much pressure he took off Schaub. Keenum didn't have that luxury, and you can say that we still had tate but teams didnt fear tate like they did Foster and rightfully so.

And stat wise in first year luck and keenum were very similar

Luck - 54.1 comp% - 6.98 avg - QBR 65.2 - RAT 76.5
Keenum - 54.2 comp% - 6.96 avg - QBR 34.5 - RAT 78.2

And dont say that all that matters is wins and losses, last season was lost way before Case was given a shot. Give him a shot with a healthy team and where there is not a coach breathing down his neck ready to pull him first chance he gets.

76Texan
05-25-2014, 09:59 AM
Trying to compare luck to keenum is not a good look. Even though luclk has been middle of the road stat wise, he makes game winning plays. Indy has really nothing specialmin terms of talent. Avg run game and stopping the run. Avg o-line and d-line,but luck makes plays. Keenan, if he had something, he shouldve been able to win a game despitebwhats going on. 1 game,thats it. Case couldnt even do that. I dont see these kinda threads for yates and he beat cincy on the road .He took the team downfield in a 2 minute drill and got it done.

1. Comparison is one thing; conclusion is another.
Do not forget that even before Luck plays a single down in the NFL, I already projected him as a starting QB at the next level.
I just thought that it was premature to automatically put him as a shoe-in to join the elite guys like Peyton, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.
On the other hand, I said that with his limited stature, Keenum needs to learn to play smart like Brees to be an NFL QB. So far, he has yet to that ability.
But it's still a little early to come to a conclusion, so I give him an I.

76Texan
05-25-2014, 10:42 AM
2. Indy defense gave up 387 points while the Texans D allowed 428 points.
And I have determined some time ago that Schaub was less burdened by this (by a smidgen.)
Overall, Luck had about a 3 - point advantage over Keenum from his defense.

The Colts D also forced a few more turnovers (about 4 or 5).

The ST gave Luck a little better field position (about 4-5 yards. )

I don't have the numbers for Pass-Pro, even though I did an estimate on this before; the Colts line gave Luck a little better protection.

The Colts receivers did not have a case of dropsies like the Texans'.
We all heard how Wayne found a fountain of youth while Hilton and Allen were steals.
Even Avery had a better year than his norm (independent of QB play.)

Keenum faced 5 winning teams in the 8 games he played.
Luck faced 5 the whole year.

I mean, the list goes on.

Honoring Earl 34
05-25-2014, 11:00 AM
2. Indy defense gave up 387 points while the Texans D allowed 428 points.
And I have determined some time ago that Schaub was less burdened by this (by a smidgen.)
Overall, Luck had about a 3 - point advantage over Keenum from his defense.

The Colts D also forced a few more turnovers (about 4 or 5).

The ST gave Luck a little better field position (about 4-5 yards. )

I don't have the numbers for Pass-Pro, even though I did an estimate on this before; the Colts line gave Luck a little better protection.

The Colts receivers did not have a case of dropsies like the Texans'.
We all heard how Wayne found a fountain of youth while Hilton and Allen were steals.
Even Avery had a better year than his norm (independent of QB play.)

Keenum faced 5 winning teams in the 8 games he played.
Luck faced 5 the whole year.

I mean, the list goes on.

Keenum's days as a Texan are not long .

76Texan
05-25-2014, 12:32 PM
Keenum's days as a Texan are not long .

Sure.

If Keenum doesn't improve in TC while Yates does, I can see Keenum getting cut.
I don't think that's going to happen though.

There's also a chance that Keenum gets hurt; which is something I don't wish for.

The Texans might be able to swing a deal for a QB that OB really likes and the guy somehow fell off favor with his team.

There's also a tiny chance that somehow the light bulb goes off in Savage's head and he impresses the heck out of everybody such that OB is comfortable enough to carry just two QBS on the roster.

Anything can happen.

LikeMike
05-25-2014, 12:50 PM
Why are we comparing him to Luck? Because Luck didnīt have that great numbers his first season and yet no one is questioning him? Luck had major problems his first season, but (and that`s a big but) he has:

1. Prototypical size, arm and brain
2. Still led several game winning drives

Other QBs had great first years, like Newton or RG3. All that has nothing to do with Keenum. Like I said, I like Keenum. I think he deserved his shot and I think he did better than all the NFL expected. And he should get a chance in camp to prove he is starter material to OB. But so far he hasn`t earned himself anything.

If he wants the starting job he needs to go at camp like Russell Wilson did. He wasn`t supposed to start, his team just traded for a QB. But he played great in camp and in preseason and earned his starting job. That`s what Keenum needs to do. And frankly, it has never been easier. Yates is Yates, probably never more than a backup QB if he can stay in the league at all. Fitzpatrick is a journeyman in the NFL, a QB that noone believes can be our future and a guy that is new to the team. And Savage is a 4th rounder with major question marks that hasn`t played football for a thousand days in between seasons in college.

So, if Keenum is as good as a lot of people here think (and I hope), he should go out there and win the job. If he can`t beat out Fitzpatrick, Yates and Savage after 2 years in the league and starting 8 games, he doesn`t deserve the job.

76Texan
05-25-2014, 01:17 PM
Why are we comparing him to Luck? Because Luck didnīt have that great numbers his first season and yet no one is questioning him? Luck had major problems his first season, but (and that`s a big but) he has:

1. Prototypical size, arm and brain
2. Still led several game winning drives

Other QBs had great first years, like Newton or RG3. All that has nothing to do with Keenum. Like I said, I like Keenum. I think he deserved his shot and I think he did better than all the NFL expected. And he should get a chance in camp to prove he is starter material to OB. But so far he hasn`t earned himself anything.

If he wants the starting job he needs to go at camp like Russell Wilson did. He wasn`t supposed to start, his team just traded for a QB. But he played great in camp and in preseason and earned his starting job. That`s what Keenum needs to do. And frankly, it has never been easier. Yates is Yates, probably never more than a backup QB if he can stay in the league at all. Fitzpatrick is a journeyman in the NFL, a QB that noone believes can be our future and a guy that is new to the team. And Savage is a 4th rounder with major question marks that hasn`t played football for a thousand days in between seasons in college.

So, if Keenum is as good as a lot of people here think (and I hope), he should go out there and win the job. If he can`t beat out Fitzpatrick, Yates and Savage after 2 years in the league and starting 8 games, he doesn`t deserve the job.
Exactly.

76Texan
05-25-2014, 02:33 PM
BTW, TK, it was Nick Foles that I wanted to mention, not Fales.

Fales was on the radar, but he fell off quickly with more tapes against pressure.

On Foles, I had responded to a poster who asked me at the time.
I responded that I like Foles when I scouted the other guys that we now have on the team.
He just held on to the ball a little too long.
That is a concern, having reservation about Kolb some years earlier.
Otherwise, Foles was a solid prospect in the mid-round.

I think this is easier to fix than the ability to perform under pressure.
What I mean is that Foles didn't crumble under pressure; he just had a propensity to hold on to the ball a bit longer than I like.
Whether the guys can fix these habits, nobody can tell.
But it did not look to me like he was slow in his read progression (as compared to the number of prospects over the year.)

Bortles is different.
I like him too.
But I did mention to you once that I don't like his mechanics.
It's a bad habit (more than one) that fails him when the pressure is on.
He was able to do well with fewer pressure in college.
Can he correct his mechanics to become a good NFL QB?
That is another million - dollar question I'd rather not have with a first round pick, especially high in the order.

CloakNNNdagger
05-25-2014, 04:33 PM
Trying to compare luck to keenum is not a good look. Even though luclk has been middle of the road stat wise, he makes game winning plays. Indy has really nothing specialmin terms of talent. Avg run game and stopping the run. Avg o-line and d-line,but luck makes plays. Keenan, if he had something, he shouldve been able to win a game despitebwhats going on. 1 game,thats it. Case couldnt even do that. I dont see these kinda threads for yates and he beat cincy on the road .He took the team downfield in a 2 minute drill and got it done.


Look at how many "gimme" games Luck "lucked" into playing in a horrid division playing horrid teams. When you figure his wins and then look at how many of those came out of the 6 games in which he played the Jags, Tack, and Texans each year, it puts Luck's performance in more accurate perspective.

Uncle Rico
05-25-2014, 04:45 PM
Luck has the most come from behind wins and 4th quarter heroics of any young QB I can recall, he may even hold some kind of record for game winning drives as a rookie, trying to discredit him in any way is really not doing the game any justice.

Keenum is on this team because he's cheap. simple as that.

76Texan
05-25-2014, 05:10 PM
Luck has the most come from behind wins and 4th quarter heroics of any young QB I can recall, he may even hold some kind of record for game winning drives as a rookie, trying to discredit him in any way is really not doing the game any justice.

Keenum is on this team because he's cheap. simple as that.

Stating the obvious is easy.

thunderkyss
05-25-2014, 07:56 PM
Luck - 54.1 comp% - 6.98 avg - QBR 65.2 - RAT 76.5
Keenum - 54.2 comp% - 6.96 avg - QBR 34.5 - RAT 78.2


Ever hear that saying, "Stats don't lie"?

Or the one, "Stats don't tell the whole story"?


EsPN's QBR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Quarterback_Rating) is supposed to bridge the gap between those two statements.

While the agregate stats do look similar, comp%, ypa, passer rating... The QBR says that Luck's play helped his team win "way" more than Case's did (if it's a linear scale, then nearly twice as much).

EllisUnit
05-25-2014, 08:03 PM
Ever hear that saying, "Stats don't lie"?

Or the one, "Stats don't tell the whole story"?


EsPN's QBR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Quarterback_Rating) is supposed to bridge the gap between those two statements.

While the agregate stats do look similar, comp%, ypa, passer rating... The QBR says that Luck's play helped his team win "way" more than Case's did (if it's a linear scale, then nearly twice as much).

Yeah i agree but his QBR was really good his first 4 starts, it went to crap after that. Well once he started trying to stay in the pocket anyways.

leebigeztx
05-25-2014, 09:35 PM
Look at how many "gimme" games Luck "lucked" into playing in a horrid division playing horrid teams. When you figure his wins and then look at how many of those came out of the 6 games in which he played the Jags, Tack, and Texans each year, it puts Luck's performance in more accurate perspective.

Luck also beat seattle,sf,and denver. Those same gimme games, case had also. Case played jax twice,titans,raiders, Case also played vs colts,kc and couldn't win a single game. Playing qb is very difficult,moreso than we make it on this board. Playing qb also calls for the guy to perform despite the environment. Luck lost reggie wayne,the couldn't run the ball and he still guided the colts to 11 wins.

In the last 10 yrs, which is a lifetime in the nfl,how many udfa qbs have been solid starters? The only guy I can come up with is Romo. Not to mention,we're not talking about a elite or top shelf who was hidden at some naia school. If say a guy like savage went undrafted because of something,his golf bag is full of clubs. I could see a team trying to develop his traits. That's why,right or wrong ,logan thomas was drafted higher than most thought. Kellen moore,case keenum types are really worthy of upside discussions imo. Not a lot of talented college qbs goes undrafted.

76Texan
05-26-2014, 06:30 AM
Luck also beat seattle,sf,and denver. Those same gimme games, case had also. Case played jax twice,titans,raiders, Case also played vs colts,kc and couldn't win a single game. Playing qb is very difficult,moreso than we make it on this board. Playing qb also calls for the guy to perform despite the environment. Luck lost reggie wayne,the couldn't run the ball and he still guided the colts to 11 wins.

In the last 10 yrs, which is a lifetime in the nfl,how many udfa qbs have been solid starters? The only guy I can come up with is Romo. Not to mention,we're not talking about a elite or top shelf who was hidden at some naia school. If say a guy like savage went undrafted because of something,his golf bag is full of clubs. I could see a team trying to develop his traits. That's why,right or wrong ,logan thomas was drafted higher than most thought. Kellen moore,case keenum types are really worthy of upside discussions imo. Not a lot of talented college qbs goes undrafted.

LB, you're going in circle, man.
Let me restate this for you.
In the respective year they first started, Keenum played against five winning teams with several main pieces around him on the shelves while Luck played 5 winning teams the whole year with a full deck.

Don't lump one year with the next.

dalemurphy
05-26-2014, 06:50 AM
Yeah i agree but his QBR was really good his first 4 starts, it went to crap after that. Well once he started trying to stay in the pocket anyways.

Once opposing defenses focused on keeping him inside the pocket... That is an important distinction. Keenum has some physical limitations that give defenses an advantage. That is an objective truth. Perhaps he can overcome them. His physical skill set simply reduces his margin for error and requires him to compensate in other areas. I am rooting for him. What I saw last year, though, is an excellent college QB and leader play his best football early. Then, as defenses scouted him, they forced him to do the things he can't do consistently- like throw intermediate passes from the pocket. Unless he can figure out how to do that consistently, he can not succeed in the NFL.

76Texan
05-26-2014, 01:03 PM
Once opposing defenses focused on keeping him inside the pocket... That is an important distinction. Keenum has some physical limitations that give defenses an advantage. That is an objective truth. Perhaps he can overcome them. His physical skill set simply reduces his margin for error and requires him to compensate in other areas. I am rooting for him. What I saw last year, though, is an excellent college QB and leader play his best football early. Then, as defenses scouted him, they forced him to do the things he can't do consistently- like throw intermediate passes from the pocket. Unless he can figure out how to do that consistently, he can not succeed in the NFL.

I keep disagreeing with the part about teams figuring out Keenum.

The Texans got beat on Pass-Pro in non - blitzing situations a whole more than they should.
If they can just be average, it would give Keenum a hair more time (like a quarter of a second to half a second) on three or four plays per game.

If they were as good as the year that had them ranked in the top ten in pass-pro, it would have made a huge difference.

Sure, Keenum made some mistakes, but that is expected from a first time starter.

Missing OD, Foster, and Tate didn't help either.
Not only the run game suffered, but blitz pickup was poor by the other RBs.

The pass catchers were dropping more balls than ever.

And the defense didn't help put pressure on the opponents by bailing them out too often as compared to their best year.

I'm quite optimistic this year.

76Texan
05-26-2014, 01:11 PM
Also, my thinking is that Kubiak wanted Case to stay in the pocket more.

I think that's the right way to develop a QB.

You don't want them to make a habit of pulling up too often.


Remember how Kubiak said in one of the preaser; that he wants Keenum to trust his protection more?

Alas, his protection wasn't up to snub.


Why did you think Kubiak drafted Quiz, B Williams and Griffin?

Why do you think the Texans let go of W Smith, draft a LG, a blocking TE, a big FB, a big back, and sign another big back to replace Tate?

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-26-2014, 01:45 PM
Also, my thinking is that Kubiak wanted Case to stay in the pocket more.

I think that's the right way to develop a QB.

You don't want them to make a habit of pulling up too often.


Remember how Kubiak said in one of the preaser; that he wants Keenum to trust his protection more?

Alas, his protection wasn't up to snub.


Why did you think Kubiak drafted Quiz, B Williams and Griffin?

Why do you think the Texans let go of W Smith, draft a LG, a blocking TE, a big FB, a big back, and sign another big back to replace Tate?

Idk, Gary should have let Case play more to his strengths. Andy Reid tried to make Vick more of a pocket passer, but Vick made his money running around

CloakNNNdagger
05-26-2014, 04:02 PM
I keep disagreeing with the part about teams figuring out Keenum.

The Texans got beat on Pass-Pro in non - blitzing situations a whole more than they should.
If they can just be average, it would give Keenum a hair more time (like a quarter of a second to half a second) on three or four plays per game.

If they were as good as the year that had them ranked in the top ten in pass-pro, it would have made a huge difference.

Sure, Keenum made some mistakes, but that is expected from a first time starter.

Missing OD, Foster, and Tate didn't help either.
Not only the run game suffered, but blitz pickup was poor by the other RBs.

The pass catchers were dropping more balls than ever.

And the defense didn't help put pressure on the opponents by bailing them out too often as compared to their best year.

I'm quite optimistic this year.

Protection was so bad, that on many plays, Keenum had less than 2.5 seconds before the D was on top of him........not enough time (even for the elite QB) to get rid of the ball or even the hot read to develop. Sure, he could have taken a load of sacks, or tried for what more likely would have been an interception than a reception. "Trusting the protection" and staying in the pocket was hardly an effective option. Although running backwards trying to extend plays many times did not pan out very well, it was one of the only options that gave much of a chance to move the ball forward.

infantrycak
05-26-2014, 04:24 PM
Someone is going to have to explain how the OL protection went from no excuse at all for Schaub to so bad Keenum cannot be judged at all.

DB and Brooks got better as the season progressed.
Newton and Smith sucked all season long.
Myers was steady all season.

I'm thinking the answer is somewhere in the middle.

CloakNNNdagger
05-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Schaub had a running game to keep Ds honest. Also, after I went back and watched some of the games, it was pretty evident that by the time Keenum took over, the D was also consistently able to come right up through the middle, a rush that even the most seasoned QB has difficulties with, let alone a neophyte.

infantrycak
05-26-2014, 05:06 PM
Schaub had a running game to keep Ds honest. Also, after I went back and watched some of the games, it was pretty evident that by the time Keenum took over, the D was also consistently able to come right up through the middle, a rush that even the most seasoned QB has difficulties with, let alone a neophyte.

While having a running game plays a role in pass protection, it is not a free pass for the OL. The Texans led the league in passing with the 30th rushing attack (yards). Last year the Texans averaged 4.2 ypa (20th in yards and 15th in ypa) v. 3.5 ypa (31st on ypa) that season.

The Ds were able to come up the middle and not pay for it with Keenum in the game so they came full bore after it. Schaub reacted better to it as a vet should.

I'm not trying to laud Schaub or say Keenum has nothing more he can show. But I think the psychitzophrenic OL card is being overplayed both against Schaub and for Keenum.

EllisUnit
05-26-2014, 05:39 PM
While having a running game plays a role in pass protection, it is not a free pass for the OL. The Texans led the league in passing with the 30th rushing attack (yards). Last year the Texans averaged 4.2 ypa (20th in yards and 15th in ypa) v. 3.5 ypa (31st on ypa) that season.

The Ds were able to come up the middle and not pay for it with Keenum in the game so they came full bore after it. Schaub reacted better to it as a vet should.

I'm not trying to laud Schaub or say Keenum has nothing more he can show. But I think the psychitzophrenic OL card is being overplayed both against Schaub and for Keenum.

Yeah but defenses did not have to fear foster either. Keenum only had Foster for what a quarter while he was starting. Teams did not fear nor respect Tate like they did Foster. So they were not worried about getting beat by the running game which in turn affects the pass protection and what defenses throw at you IMO.

infantrycak
05-26-2014, 06:25 PM
Yeah but defenses did not have to fear foster either. Keenum only had Foster for what a quarter while he was starting. Teams did not fear nor respect Tate like they did Foster. So they were not worried about getting beat by the running game which in turn affects the pass protection and what defenses throw at you IMO.

I acknowledged that but that is a factor, not the whole game. As I said, with the 30th/31st ranked rushing attack (if being offensively bad can be considered an attack) with no RBs anyone feared led the league in passing with the sloth footed Schaub at QB. I am not saying pass pro including the running game shouldn't be a factor in evaluating Keenum because it absolutely should but it isn't the free pass some are making it out to be.

thunderkyss
05-26-2014, 07:38 PM
Also, my thinking is that Kubiak wanted Case to stay in the pocket more.

I think that's the right way to develop a QB.

You don't want them to make a habit of pulling up too often.


Remember how Kubiak said in one of the preaser; that he wants Keenum to trust his protection more?


I can understand Kubiak's thinking, & we should constantly work towards getting better, every game, every practice.

But I don't think this is the sort of thing we need to be working on during the season. He screwed up is what it comes down to & I knew it was going to happen.

I like Tj, but I don't think Kubiak bought into him being the future of the Texans. I believe that's what they saw when they looked at Case. But because we were "supposed" to be in the Super Bowl in 2013, he played it safe, kept Tj as the back up leaving Case on the practice Squad.

Case isn't learning the system if he's running the scout team. Who ever, whatever made them decide to go with Case at that point in his career didn't make a whole lot of sense.


Alas, his protection wasn't up to snub.


Alas.... it looked worse when Case was in than it did with Schaub or Tj.

Hervoyel
05-26-2014, 07:42 PM
First time starters have these kinds of issues. I'm not going to make excuses for Keenum because I don't think they're necessary. The only question now is does he come back with a sense of urgency and more information in his head and can he apply that to produce an improved performance for OB.

I don't think he knew how to make defenses pay for what they were doing to him. At least not at this level/speed. If he doesn't learn it then he has no future as an NFL QB because only the ones who can do that last any length of time.

thunderkyss
05-26-2014, 07:43 PM
Yeah but defenses did not have to fear foster either. Keenum only had Foster for what a quarter while he was starting. Teams did not fear nor respect Tate like they did Foster. So they were not worried about getting beat by the running game which in turn affects the pass protection and what defenses throw at you IMO.

That argument goes out the window when you see how the Jags treated Schaub when Case got benched.

No Foster for either.

The risk/reward ratio totally flopped when we put a QB back there that knew what he was doing.

Case needs to get better, period. Even if Foster was in the game, they won't respect him if they continue to force negative or net 0 plays.

infantrycak
05-26-2014, 07:46 PM
I like Tj, but I don't think Kubiak bought into him being the future of the Texans. I believe that's what they saw when they looked at Case. But because we were "supposed" to be in the Super Bowl in 2013, he played it safe, kept Tj as the back up leaving Case on the practice Squad.

Case isn't learning the system if he's running the scout team. Who ever, whatever made them decide to go with Case at that point in his career didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Keenum wasn't on the practice squad last season.

I don't buy the not learning the system argument either. Keenum was sitting through all the film breakdown with Schaub. If he isn't learning anything from that, it's on him. (Yes more reps would be better but it isn't all or nothing.)

dream_team
05-26-2014, 07:58 PM
Someone is going to have to explain how the OL protection went from no excuse at all for Schaub to so bad Keenum cannot be judged at all.


My thoughts exactly. MSR!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thunderkyss
05-26-2014, 08:22 PM
Keenum wasn't on the practice squad last season.


Right I meant running the scout team.


I don't buy the not learning the system argument either. Keenum was sitting through all the film breakdown with Schaub. If he isn't learning anything from that, it's on him. (Yes more reps would be better but it isn't all or nothing.)

Agreed. I kept waiting for it to start clicking for him. For that light to go off in his head, "Ah, now I see" but it never happened.

xtruroyaltyx
05-27-2014, 11:19 AM
I don't know about being a rookie in the NFL, but I know that in highschool and college, watching film as a young player is different than watching it as an established vet...

As a young player it's harder translate what you learn from watching film to what you see in live action because your head is still spinning. You don't fully understand what's going on.

I would imagine in the NFL it's similar, but muuuuuuuch harder.

You can watch all the film you want...study the whole playbook up and down...But that live action is a different animal...Even going out in practice against your defense or the scout team defense can be a big help...

76Texan
05-27-2014, 01:10 PM
I'll have the 2nd Jags game break down later on, having an off - day.

Sure, Keenum made a few mistakes, but it wasn't like the Jags had him figured out.

How many points did we score on the Pats the previous week?

The O-line had problem with pass-pro all year long.
I didn't really cursed Schaub out, but I definitely can live without the pick sixes.

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 01:15 PM
Once opposing defenses focused on keeping him inside the pocket... That is an important distinction. Keenum has some physical limitations that give defenses an advantage. That is an objective truth. Perhaps he can overcome them. His physical skill set simply reduces his margin for error and requires him to compensate in other areas. I am rooting for him. What I saw last year, though, is an excellent college QB and leader play his best football early. Then, as defenses scouted him, they forced him to do the things he can't do consistently- like throw intermediate passes from the pocket. Unless he can figure out how to do that consistently, he can not succeed in the NFL.

Preach on my brother. Pay attention to Case's highlight reel Cloak posted. just about every throw on that highlight reel was him throwing the ball to a WR well outside of the hashes or just outside of the hashes - well away from the clutter in the middle. When he wasn't throwing those passes he was throwing way deep over the defense......away from the clutter in the middle.

Another thing to note is most times when he was throwing deep he was running around well outside of the pocket and/or he was in shotgun. Some of that is Sumlin's system ingrained in him.... constantly challenging deep & feeling most comfortable in shotgun..... but some of it is his limitations too; It's pretty clear he can't see well inside the pocket to throw those intermediate passes in the middle of the defense...He needs to be in shotgun or away from the bulk of where everyone is to see the field well. That AZ game where he nearly had 3 passes picked off b/c he was forced to throw it more in the middle of the defense also makes it pretty clear that he doesn't have the arm strength to pull off throwing in their a ton.

& sorry to say those seam passes in the middle to the TE's are a staple of OB's offense so Case is facing an uphill battle to even be on the roster this year.

edwardc5637
05-27-2014, 01:36 PM
Should have kept Shaub.

cstyle42
05-27-2014, 02:24 PM
IziOTE= edwardc5637;2345153]Should have kept Shaub.[/QUOTE]

Once cancer is gone it takes time to get used to living cancer free... after awhile you will realize how much harder it was with cancer versus without it.

Nitrofish
05-27-2014, 02:39 PM
Once cancer is gone it takes time to get used to living cancer free... after awhile you will realize how much harder it was with cancer versus without it.

Will the hyperbole never end?

silvrhand
05-27-2014, 02:47 PM
Should have kept Shaub.

You need help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

DocBar
05-27-2014, 04:14 PM
First time starters have these kinds of issues. I'm not going to make excuses for Keenum because I don't think they're necessary. The only question now is does he come back with a sense of urgency and more information in his head and can he apply that to produce an improved performance for OB.

I don't think he knew how to make defenses pay for what they were doing to him. At least not at this level/speed. If he doesn't learn it then he has no future as an NFL QB because only the ones who can do that last any length of time.Good points. Hell, just look at the 1st few games Steve Young started for SF. They were UGLY!

I don't know about being a rookie in the NFL, but I know that in highschool and college, watching film as a young player is different than watching it as an established vet...

As a young player it's harder translate what you learn from watching film to what you see in live action because your head is still spinning. You don't fully understand what's going on.

I would imagine in the NFL it's similar, but muuuuuuuch harder.

You can watch all the film you want...study the whole playbook up and down...But that live action is a different animal...Even going out in practice against your defense or the scout team defense can be a big help...
I would think you would have better resources, and more of them, at the NFL level to learn your position. Not to mention more time since you don't have classes.
IMO, the game slows down seperately for each player. For some, it never does. I don't think it's something you can teach.

Preach on my brother. Pay attention to Case's highlight reel Cloak posted. just about every throw on that highlight reel was him throwing the ball to a WR well outside of the hashes or just outside of the hashes - well away from the clutter in the middle. When he wasn't throwing those passes he was throwing way deep over the defense......away from the clutter in the middle.

Another thing to note is most times when he was throwing deep he was running around well outside of the pocket and/or he was in shotgun. Some of that is Sumlin's system ingrained in him.... constantly challenging deep & feeling most comfortable in shotgun..... but some of it is his limitations too; It's pretty clear he can't see well inside the pocket to throw those intermediate passes in the middle of the defense...He needs to be in shotgun or away from the bulk of where everyone is to see the field well. That AZ game where he nearly had 3 passes picked off b/c he was forced to throw it more in the middle of the defense also makes it pretty clear that he doesn't have the arm strength to pull off throwing in their a ton.

& sorry to say those seam passes in the middle to the TE's are a staple of OB's offense so Case is facing an uphill battle to even be on the roster this year. Under the new CBA, is it even possible to see how much of an issue CK has in this area in OTA's and TC, or will it be in preseason going against scrubs?

michaelm
05-27-2014, 04:18 PM
Once opposing defenses focused on keeping him inside the pocket... That is an important distinction. Keenum has some physical limitations that give defenses an advantage. That is an objective truth. Perhaps he can overcome them. His physical skill set simply reduces his margin for error and requires him to compensate in other areas. I am rooting for him. What I saw last year, though, is an excellent college QB and leader play his best football early. Then, as defenses scouted him, they forced him to do the things he can't do consistently- like throw intermediate passes from the pocket. Unless he can figure out how to do that consistently, he can not succeed in the NFL.

It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.

Playoffs
05-27-2014, 04:19 PM
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
Case still throws one of the best deep balls, outside shoulder ball placement.

DocBar
05-27-2014, 04:27 PM
It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.Kubiak seemed more of a checkers guy than chess master last season.:user:

76Texan
05-27-2014, 04:32 PM
Kubiak seemed more of a checkers guy than chess master last season.:user:

Sad, but high degree of truth.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 04:39 PM
It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.It's no secret that the opponents stay home more often now on our play action roll-out.

When you have Foster on the shelf and Tate with 4 cracked ribs, defenses just don't respect your running game.

It makes the play action that much harder to execute.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 04:51 PM
Then on regular plays, the pass-pro was lacking, the secondary can afford to cheat up more often.
If you pay attention to the receivers from both teams, you should notice that theirs were more open than ours, and it's not just because they were able to create more separarion.

It's a chain of effect that keeps snowballing, making it hard to watch.

Dang, we made Mcgloin looks like an All - pro, one has to wonder why OB didn't trade a 4th for him instead of drafting Savage.
Perhaps, the Raiders wanted AJ instead, LOL!

DocBar
05-27-2014, 04:57 PM
It's no secret that the opponents stay home more often now on our play action roll-out.
When you have Foster on the shelf and Tate with 4 cracked ribs, defenses just don't respect your running game.

It makes the play action that much harder to execute.That's really all they had to do with 75% of Kubiak's offense. Stay at home and see which side executed better. Not to mention his incredibley stubborn insistence on being glaringly obvious on 90% of his play calling.

With what BO'B is saying, I'm not so sure that will be as big a deal. The short passing game will become his running game. IF the OL plays better. :kitten:

EllisUnit
05-27-2014, 06:05 PM
It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.

exactly there is a way to beat defenses that do that and keep them honest and then they can not always key in on keeping QB in the pocket. Problem was Kubiak was not open minded enough to go away from what he knew.

infantrycak
05-27-2014, 06:14 PM
exactly there is a way to beat defenses that do that and keep them honest and then they can not always key in on keeping QB in the pocket. Problem was Kubiak was not open minded enough to go away from what he knew.

Amazing the "best GM in the NFL" got it so wrong about Kubiak, huh?

EllisUnit
05-27-2014, 06:36 PM
Amazing the "best GM in the NFL" got it so wrong about Kubiak, huh?

I'm just going off of what i saw here which was an inability to adjust to players strengths, an inability to adapt to defenses who could stop his original game plan. Not to mention his success was very limited as far as wins and the play offs until we hired Wade. He may be a better O.C than a head coach. Maybe it was just to much for him and made him worse as an OC.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:13 PM
Texans vs. Jags week 14.

I didn't have time to re-evaluate the plays of all 3 QBs; it has been awhile since I rewatched other portions of the games besides the time that Keenum was ln there.

I took a quick glance and noticed that Henne might have gotten more pressures than Keenum, while Schaub was pressured a little less.
But I cannot ascertain this as facts at this time.

What I can be sure of is that Henne was supported by a stronger running game, and more penalties from the Texans, bailing out the Jags O at times. His ST was also a hair better.
His numbers are somewhat equivalent to Case and Schaub, however.

Schaub was pressured a little less, and the receivers got open a bit more with fewer drops.

There was no real winner at the QB position for me until I can dig in more details.

It is true that Keenum can play better, but the same can also be said about the other two QBs on the field that day.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:15 PM
Texans vs Jags week 14

1st drive at 8:43

Tate gained 4 before Keenum hit Hopkins for 16 despite being pressured.
Myers got beat right off to the bat to his right on play action off 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE.)
This also caused Brooks to lost it to the twist.
Keenum had to scramble to his left right after the 2-sec mark.
(Note that on play action, the pass is always slower to develop since the QB has to execute a fake hand-off first.
This is supposed to delay the pass rush at least a fraction of a second.)

On first down, W. Smith got beat, but Keenum was able to step up the pocket to fire a pass to AJ.
(The DT would have gotten to Case within 3 secs if he didn't ger rid of the ball.)
Case threw the ball correctly to the outside with the CB playing to the inside.
The ball went through AJ's hands, however.
People who wants to find fault might say that Keenum was not pin-point accurate.
IMHO, that ball needed to be caught.

On second down, Case hit Graham for 4 on a play action bootleg to his left.
The back side CB recognized the ball fake and stayed on task.

On third down, the Jags sent a six-man blitz.
The Texans had six to block.
There was no hot receiver open.
On the right side, despite having 5 to block 4 (3 actually, as the 4th rusher never engaged),
the Line got pushed back.
Case couldn't step up nor set up so he had to throw the ball off-balance while retreating with the 5th rusher being free.
The ball fell just short of Hopkins.
Should Case take a chance and throw the ball a hair earlier?
May be, but if only there was an open receiver in that split second.
But all four were tightly covered (the back stayed back to block the 6th rusher.)
In order to get the ball out earlier, Case would have to roll the dice and threw the ball before the receiver make his break.
But the DBs knew how to play their man within the 5-yd rule; they wouldn't let the two underneath guys get off the jam.
The chance for a completion is low (since the receivers weren't ready) and the chance for an INT is there.
It would have been nice if Graham can dominate the SS like Gronk or Hernandez or that KMart can get some separation.
As it was, it was basically a throw away like TK wanted.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:16 PM
2nd drive at 4:34

Tate ran the ball 3 times for 12 yards and a first down.
DJ then gained 6 before Case hook up with AJ for 6 on a receiver screen.

On first down, Keenum missed a wide-open Tate as he threw the ball behind Tate on a quick out without any pressure and a clear throwing lane.
Could it be that Keenum wanted to lead Tate to the inside since the Jags were in a standard 52 zone.
With Tate running toward the side line, he was running right toward the LCB.
If Tate turned around sooner (cutting his route short,) he would have room and time to square up to run over the defender or to make him miss.
At any rate, just chalk this up as an innacurate throw by Case.

Tate ran for 2 on second down.

On third down and 8, Case got sacked for -6 when both Newton and Smith got walked back and then allowed penetration to the inside.\
(Myers and Keenum were in a double-team.)
Jags rushed four.
Case stepped up and was throwing the ball, but it was batted down by Babin.
Babin hit the ball and Case's hand right before the 3-sec mark.
It was very close, but the ruling was that Babin hit Case's hand right before "forward" movement so they called it a sack.
Case saw AJ open 18 yards down field in a 52 zone, and was trying to go there.
AJ was the only receiver about to turn his head on the break
The other 4 routes were slow developing routes.
This, to me, is part of the problems.
You have an Oline that cannot sustain a four-man pass rush, why call all five slow developing routes?
...

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:16 PM
Third drive starting at 13:41 in the second quarter, Jags leading by 14.

On first down, Case just missed Griffin on a deep route that would have gained some thirty yards.
Griffin was held slightly (you can see the jersey being pulled just enough to slow down Griffin a hair.)
The ball left Keenum's at the 2-1/2 sec mark when both Myers and Brooks were pushed into him.
This is after Case performed a faked hand off to the RB.
Also, he had no room to step into his throw. He was throwing from right where he barely finished taking his dropback.
Myers was stepping on his toes right after the release.

Tate loss 2 on a called screen pass when the Jags played it really well.
The two LBs read W. Smith's release correctly and reacted very fast.
Tate had no chance as Smith couldn't get his block down.

On third down, the Jags rushed four.
With a single deep safety, they had two guys double-teaming AJ right off the bat while the other 4 defenders were tight on the rest of the Texans' weapons.
Keenum recongnized it and took off for 13 yards.

Tate gained 5 on first down, but can only mustard 1 on second down.
Hopkins was called for unecessary roughness as he punched the CB in the face mask.
Myers then was flagged for false start resulting in 3rd and 24.

Jags rushed four.
With six guys blocking, the Texans somehow managed to make life hard for the QB.
Both Brown and Smith were pushed way back.
The snap was on the left hash marks.
That's where Brown was 9-10 yards in the backfield at the 2-1/2 sec mark, while Smith was in the middle of the field.
If Case was to remain in place, he would have been meeting these two and then engulfed by the RDE.
Talk about ineptitude.
Scrambling out of the pocket, Case tried a last gap dump off to Tate, but the RB was caught in the back of Myers and fell down.
Texans might as well call a draw play to Tate on 3rd and 24 here, LOL!

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:17 PM
Fourth drive at 1:20

Keenum quickly found Graham for 9 on first down.

On the next play, the Jags rushed 4, but the Oline allowed a DT to enter the middle.
Case rolled left and found AJ wide open. He would have at least get a reception at the Jags 35-37 with an easy pass over the top.
For some reason, Case short armed the throw right to Allan Ball underneath.

It's not like the Jags figure Keenum out or anything; it was just a terrible throw, and a simple one at that. A decent high school QB can make that throw.

With 54 sec left, the Jags moved the ball for 39 yards before settling for a FG.

...

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:19 PM
Second half

Fifth drive at 14:39

After Tate gained 1, Case found him for 5 on second down.
Case released the ball around just before the 2-1/2 sec mark.
Brown lunged and was thrown to the ground; Newton also got beat off the edge.
The two DEs sandwiched Keenum and took him to the ground.
That's two QB hits on one play.

Keenum got up and calmly found AJ who had beaten the LCB's jam on the quick slant for 14.
Jags rushed 5, but Case let the ball go quickly.
It sure helps when your receiver can beat the defender.

After a 3-yd run by DJ, the Texans tried drop back play action.
Greg Jones missed the block and another defender was running around Myers.
With two defenders on either side of him and no time to spare, Keenum sent a pass to the far left corner.
As the single deep safety was there, he couldn't afford to throw the ball down the seam.
I don't think the LB had a finger on the ball; it looks like the ball just sail a little on Case.
It would have been easier if he had a little more room to properly step into the throw.
It was an inacurate pass, but a safe pass.
I'm not sure I like this 2-receiver pass pattern.
They had Hopkins on the right, running an in-and-out pattern to the right.
AJ was on the left, running some type of a seam route.
This allowed the deep safety to concentrate on double-teaming AJ.
If Hopkins was to run a post route, it would force the deep safety to stay home a little longer, giving the QB more space downfield to aim his throw.
Just my thinking.

On third and seven, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Keenum read the free blitzing LB off the edge and properly went to KMart on the hot route.
He threw the ball before Martin made the break.
The ball went to the spot of a curl route while Martin made the break on a quick in route.
If that was supposed to be a quick in then it was a terrible throw by Case.
If that was a curl route then it was on the money.
Yes, there was a free blitzer, but Case got the ball out in "plenty" of time.
I don't think the blitzer had any influence on the precision of the throw.
Punt.

...

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:19 PM
Sixth drive at 9:49

Case read cover 4 and properly sent the ball to AJ on a 10-yd curl.
AJ gained more YAC for a total of 27 to the Jags 19.

On first down, Case threw the ball accurately to AJ on a 5yd stop route, but he dropped the ball.

On second down, Tate gained 3 to set up third and 7.

The Texans tried a quick fade to Hopkins in the left corner.
The pass was right there (about 1-2 yards inbound,) but Hopkins landed out of bound.

Whether one wants a more perfect pass by Case or a better job by Hopkins, the Jags did not beat the pass play.
The Texans just didn't connect.

...

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:22 PM
Seventh drive at 6:12 trailing by 14 now.

Jags rushed 4.
On first down, the Texans got beat by the twist again.
(This is a glaring weakness of the Oline all year long.)
Whether it was on Brooks or Harris, Case got hit before the 2-sec mark.
His ball went off target toward Griffin.

On second down, the spot of the snap was in the middle of the field.
Harris was pushed 8 yards into the backfield to the middle before the 2-sec mark.
Of the 5 targets, none was open; some weren't even ready for the ball.
Case bought some time with his feet and delivered the ball accurately to Graham near the first down marker.
He dropped the ball.

On third and ten, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Case correctly went to the hot receiver AJ on the right; the only one open and ready on the quick slant.
I can't see whether it was KMart or Hopkins in the slot with AJ on the outside.
The Jags played an odd 5-1 zone.
The nickel back certainly did not respect our slot receiver's speed.
He gambled and took a quick step forward and jumped on the slant, limiting it to just 4.
Also, it was too bad that Case's progression was from left to right.
IMO, he felt like he didn't have time to wait any longer for the 5th read on a blitz.
Also, if he trusted the line a little more on this particular play, he might have had a TD in the far right corner.
But, it's far from easy to get to your 5th read on a blitz.

...

Kubiak decided to go with Schaub for the rest of the game.

thunderkyss
05-27-2014, 08:38 PM
I'm just going off of what i saw here which was an inability to adjust to players strengths...

Are we talking about Schaub's imagined strengths?

DocBar
05-27-2014, 08:48 PM
Seventh drive at 6:12 trailing by 14 now.

Jags rushed 4.
On first down, the Texans got beat by the twist again.
(This is a glaring weakness of the Oline all year long.)
Whether it was on Brooks or Harris, Case got hit before the 2-sec mark.
His ball went off target toward Griffin.

On second down, the spot of the snap was in the middle of the field.
Harris was pushed 8 yards into the backfield to the middle before the 2-sec mark.
Of the 5 targets, none was open; some weren't even ready for the ball.
Case bought some time with his feet and delivered the ball accurately to Graham near the first down marker.
He dropped the ball.

On third and ten, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Case correctly went to the hot receiver AJ on the right; the only one open and ready on the quick slant.
I can't see whether it was KMart or Hopkins in the slot with AJ on the outside.
The Jags played an odd 5-1 zone.
The nickel back certainly did not respect our slot receiver's speed.
He gambled and took a quick step forward and jumped on the slant, limiting it to just 4.
Also, it was too bad that Case's progression was from left to right.
IMO, he felt like he didn't have time to wait any longer for the 5th read on a blitz.
Also, if he trusted the line a little more on this particular play, he might have had a TD in the far right corner.
But, it's far from easy to get to your 5th read on a blitz.

...

Kubiak decided to go with Schaub for the rest of the game.You're either very good at typing, or you have no job and no life. It would take me a while to type all that out. I am not good at typing and I work 10+ hrs a day.
:shades::user:

76Texan
05-27-2014, 08:52 PM
You're either very good at typing, or you have no job and no life. It would take me a while to type all that out. I am not good at typing and I work 10+ hrs a day.
:shades::user:

I'm fairly good at typing, I type by touch.
I took a few years off work, and currently only work about 30 hours a week. :koolaid:

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 10:30 PM
At the end of the day 76, you're basically making excuses for Case and you're saying the same thing for Keenum that everyone says was Schaub's achilles heel; He needs everything around him to be solid or great for him to be good. Short of that, there will always be a reason why he didn't play up to his potential.

We need to get away from that. We need a qb that makes those around him good and can still function at a high level even when he doesn't have perfect circumstances. Why we're beating the drum for a guy who couldn't even win a game for us is beyond me.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 10:43 PM
At the end of the day 76, you're basically making excuses for Case and you're saying the same thing for Keenum that everyone says was Schaub's achilles heel; He needs everything around him to be solid or great for him to be good. Short of that, there will always be a reason why he didn't play up to his potential.

We need to get away from that. We need a qb that makes those around him good and can still function at a high level even when he doesn't have perfect circumstances. Why we're beating the drum for a guy who couldn't even win a game for us is beyond me.

And where do you find that guy?

corytx8
05-27-2014, 10:45 PM
At the end of the day 76, you're basically making excuses for Case and you're saying the same thing for Keenum that everyone says was Schaub's achilles heel; He needs everything around him to be solid or great for him to be good. Short of that, there will always be a reason why he didn't play up to his potential.



We need to get away from that. We need a qb that makes those around him good and can still function at a high level even when he doesn't have perfect circumstances. Why we're beating the drum for a guy who couldn't even win a game for us is beyond me.


I think what 76 is trying to point out is the rookie mistakes Case were making. He is only trying to build a case for the man because everyone is quick to abandoned ship and want a rookie to play at a elite QB level out of the gate.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

eriadoc
05-27-2014, 10:47 PM
... and you're saying the same thing for Keenum that everyone says was Schaub's achilles heel; He needs everything around him to be solid or great for him to be good.

You don't judge a QB after 8 games the same as one who has started 40+ games.

DocBar
05-27-2014, 10:48 PM
You don't judge a QB after 8 games the same as one who has started 40+ games.Give that man a cigar!!!!

thunderkyss
05-27-2014, 10:58 PM
At the end of the day 76, you're basically making excuses for Case and you're saying the same thing for Keenum that everyone says was Schaub's achilles heel; He needs everything around him to be solid or great for him to be good. Short of that, there will always be a reason why he didn't play up to his potential.

We need to get away from that. We need a qb that makes those around him good and can still function at a high level even when he doesn't have perfect circumstances. Why we're beating the drum for a guy who couldn't even win a game for us is beyond me.

The problem with that, is that guy is hard to find.

Matt Ryan... that's not him. They gave up a whole draft to get him another playmaker opposite Roddy White, in addition to Tony Gonzales & Steven Jackson (& Michael the burner turner before him) & they've been working on their defense ever since they drafted Ryan.

Joe Flacco... that's not him. They had the best defense for the last decade & the offense still couldn't score enough points to win (until recently).

Matthew Stafford... I don't think that's him, but it's hard to tell in Detroit.

Sam Bradford... we know he can't do it without help. He can't get to a winning season without help.

Cam Newton... I love watching this kid play, but it ain't him.

Tom Brady... well, everybody missed on that guy.

The QB is important. But we're better off (everyone is) focusing on building a solid team, with depth so in the event we do find that guy, he can do his thing. David Carr might have been that guy, but not on this team. Had we passed on him & he somehow made his way to the Miami Dolphins... who knows?

DocBar
05-27-2014, 11:03 PM
The problem with that, is that guy is hard to find.

Matt Ryan... that's not him. They gave up a whole draft to get him another playmaker opposite Roddy White, in addition to Tony Gonzales & Steven Jackson (& Michael the burner turner before him) & they've been working on their defense ever since they drafted Ryan.

Joe Flacco... that's not him. They had the best defense for the last decade & the offense still couldn't score enough points to win (until recently).

Matthew Stafford... I don't think that's him, but it's hard to tell in Detroit.

Sam Bradford... we know he can't do it without help. He can't get to a winning season without help.

Cam Newton... I love watching this kid play, but it ain't him.

Tom Brady... well, everybody missed on that guy.

The QB is important. But we're better off (everyone is) focusing on building a solid team, with depth so in the event we do find that guy, he can do his thing. David Carr might have been that guy, but not on this team. Had we passed on him & he somehow made his way to the Miami Dolphins... who knows?:goodpost:[

thunderkyss
05-27-2014, 11:05 PM
I think what 76 is trying to point out is the rookie mistakes Case were making. He is only trying to build a case for the man because everyone is quick to abandoned ship and want a rookie to play at a elite QB level out of the gate.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

& I think that is a big misconception. Just about everyone was giving Keenum a pass for at least the first 5 games he played. When Schaub was put in the game, it shocked everyone. Even me.

There are rookie mistakes that "everyone" makes even the guys who eventually go on to be "great" QBs. Then there are the ones Case makes. Then it didn't appear that he learned from those mistakes in 8 games.

It was as if they didn't watch the film the next day & say, "Case... y'know you f'kd up right there right? You bobbed, should've weaved. Remember that."

It was like watching groundhog day when the second half started.

I'm hoping this was a case of Kubiak wanting to "perfect" the young'n when clearly it wasn't time for that. Instead of trying to get Case to fit his system (which I feel is what Kubiak was trying to do), he should have said, "Ok, this is what he does well, this is what he doesn't... let's do more of this, & the next time the defense breaks out Case's Kryptonite, we'll hit them with this."

Instead, he was like, "Sink or swim kid... make it happen."

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 11:08 PM
You don't judge a QB after 8 games the same as one who has started 40+ games.

Do you give an undrafted player the same amount of chances to prove himself as you would a #1 pick? Nope. Let's not be naive here Ericadoc.

Favre came in for GB as a 2nd year qb after Majowkski got injured...& not only won the game, he looked damn good doing it...ended the season with them as a starter on a 4 game win streak. The team he took over was 4-12 the previous year so he didn't have everything in place for him...he got in there & made that team go & never looked back...Same for Kurt Warner although he had more help...that team doesn't ascend to the greatest show on turf with Trent Green.

Guys in Keenum's position have to leave no doubt.& his performances once teams got film on him left plenty of doubt. You guys can duck your head in the sand and blame it all on Kubiak and rookie mistakes all you want but more of what was going on with Keenum had to do with Keenum's overall shortcomings than those other factors.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 11:12 PM
The question remains the same.
Where is the guy or do you think throwing dart will get you one?

76Texan
05-27-2014, 11:16 PM
How did you think Aikman got to 0-11?

What was the excuses for him?

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 11:18 PM
The question remains the same.
Where is the guy or do you think throwing dart will get you one?

Every team throws those darts...even with the Andrew Luck's & Peyton Manning's. Some teams are just closer to the dart board than others.

But just b/c you can't go and pick that guy up at Wal-Mart doesn't mean that you settle for something inferior. 8 games was plenty to get a glimpse of what Case could be...He ain't the guy.

badboy
05-27-2014, 11:18 PM
Watching Keenum play makes me think he will do much better with the O'line we should have this season; whether that is enough...

thunderkyss
05-27-2014, 11:20 PM
The question remains the same.
Where is the guy or do you think throwing dart will get you one?

Since we don't have that guy, we might as well make the best of what we got in Case Keenum right?

I'm good with that, that's the way I'm looking at it. Keenum most of all because he played at UH (yeah, I said it). But I wouldn't have a problem if they decided to make the best of what they've got with Tj Yates, or Fitzpatrick.

Case also hooked up with Andre a bit more so he's got that going for him as well. It most definitely would have been nice to see Keenum play on that 2011 team.

badboy
05-27-2014, 11:20 PM
Every team throws those darts...even with the Andrew Luck's & Peyton Manning's. Some teams are just closer to the dart board than others.

But just b/c you can't go and pick that guy up at Wal-Mart doesn't mean that you settle for something inferior. 8 games was plenty to get a glimpse of what Case could be...He ain't the guy.
Obviously, OB does not think as do you or Case would be gone.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 11:21 PM
Every team throws those darts...even with the Andrew Luck's & Peyton Manning's. Some teams are just closer to the dart board than others.

But just b/c you can't go and pick that guy up at Wal-Mart doesn't mean that you settle for something inferior. 8 games was plenty to get a glimpse of what Case could be...He ain't the guy.


Questions are good.
Solutions are better.

At least I suggested Wilson and Glennon as viable candidates.

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 11:26 PM
How did you think Aikman got to 0-11?

What was the excuses for him?

Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?

eriadoc
05-27-2014, 11:27 PM
Do you give an undrafted player the same amount of chances to prove himself as you would a #1 pick? Nope. Let's not be naive here Ericadoc.

First off, it is my opinion that teams would be better off in many situations if they did. Give a guy time to develop and he can turn out to be something. But I'm not naive enough to think that teams actually do that. However, our team does not have a #1 pick, so I'm not judging Keenum the same as a guy that's started 40+ games. Because there is no clear cut guy ahead of him, he may just develop and surprise some of y'all. Or maybe he won't. Whatever. I don't see the harm in hoping he does well. Hell, I want all our guys to do well, and I've said repeatedly that I want an honest, open competition, and the best man to win. Looks like we might actually get that for the first time in Texans history.

Mr teX
05-27-2014, 11:27 PM
Obviously, OB does not think as do you or Case would be gone.

Right....so what does him bringing in Fitzy say about his beliefs then?

76Texan
05-27-2014, 11:31 PM
Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?
I didn't know you can make excuses too.

76Texan
05-27-2014, 11:51 PM
There are no excuses about the pressure given up.
It is well documented by independent sources like SI and PFF.
The drops by the receivers should be documented somewhere, or you can roll back the tapes to the plays I had described.
The lacking on D, ST, penalties.
They are all there.
Everything is in either black and white or in vivid color.

EllisUnit
05-28-2014, 12:20 AM
Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?

We didnt look like a talented playoff team when Keenum took over :kitten:

thunderkyss
05-28-2014, 12:26 AM
First off, it is my opinion that teams would be better off in many situations if they did. Give a guy time to develop and he can turn out to be something.

Wouldn't Miami be better off if they'd stuck with Henne & used that #1 on someone like Luke Kuechly, Stephon Gilmore, or Quinton Coples?

Maybe not, but they wouldn't be much worse off if they had.

Or Jacksonville, should have stuck with Henne instead of forcing Gabbert back into the starting line up.

thunderkyss
05-28-2014, 12:28 AM
Right....so what does him bringing in Fitzy say about his beliefs then?

It says he thinks bringing Fitzmagic in is a better option than drafting Bortles, Bridgewater, or Manziel in the first round.

DocBar
05-28-2014, 12:33 AM
It says he thinks bringing Fitzmagic in is a better option than drafting Bortles, Bridgewater, or Manziel in the first round.Pure conjecture. Do you have a clue where the Texans had those guys slotted?

EllisUnit
05-28-2014, 12:38 AM
Pure conjecture. Do you have a clue where the Texans had those guys slotted?

Not in their first round pick :kitten:

thunderkyss
05-28-2014, 01:00 AM
Pure conjecture.

Yes. So is anything else that can be "derived" from signing Ryan Fitzpatrick.