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PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-10-2014, 09:41 PM
Who do you guys think really had more pull during this draft, was it more of Rick draft or a BoB draft?

Brandon420tx
05-10-2014, 09:45 PM
Considering Ricks history of deferring to the head coach anyway. I think the draft was 90% the various coaches decisions. Basically telling him what positions they liked, and which players and it became Ricks job to just write their names down on a sheet. Seriously, he has done this his entire career here with Kubiak, why should we be surprised that he does the same with BOB and RAC.

WolverineFan
05-10-2014, 09:45 PM
It was both. There is no question that O'Brien had some sort of say in the decisions (as did Crennel) but I think it's also clear that we got a good glimpse of what Smith is able to do without Kubiak hanging over his shoulder.

Houston_Fanatic
05-10-2014, 09:47 PM
Considering Ricks history of deferring to the head coach anyway. I think the draft was 90% the various coaches decisions. Basically telling him what positions they liked, and which players and it became Ricks job to just write their names down on a sheet. Seriously, he has done this his entire career here with Kubiak, why should we be surprised that he does the same with BOB and RAC.

Agreed. Rick Smith went out and found the talent BOB wanted, just like he did for Kubiak. That's his job, after all.

Playoffs
05-10-2014, 09:49 PM
Watch the interviews. OB repeatedly praised Rick and how easy he was to work with. Rick talked about their common vision regarding prospects. OB was impressed by how Rick stuck to their board. Rick obviously listened and respected OB's opinions on players he liked. CJ Fiedorowicz, for example, where Rick was not there to see his pro day.

Seems to me Rick is deferring a lot to a guy he recognizes as having a good football eye, and OB appreciating to organised way they conducted business. So far, no throwing under the bus moments.

Marshall
05-10-2014, 09:50 PM
Who do you guys think really had more pull during this draft, was it more of Rick draft or a BoB draft?

Absolutely!

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-10-2014, 10:10 PM
Watch the interviews. OB repeatedly praised Rick and how easy he was to work with. Rick talked about their common vision regarding prospects. OB was impressed by how Rick stuck to their board. Rick obviously listened and respected OB's opinions on players he liked. CJ Fiedorowicz, for example, where Rick was not there to see his pro day.

Seems to me Rick is deferring a lot to a guy he recognizes as having a good football eye, and OB appreciating to organised way they conducted business. So far, no throwing under the bus moments.

So, are you saying Rick doesn't have much of a clue and is a "yes man" or he knows his job could be on the line if he doesn't nail this draft?

thunderkyss
05-10-2014, 10:30 PM
If you were the GM, how would you do it?

Most likely, that's the way Rick Smith is doing it.

Playoffs
05-10-2014, 10:33 PM
So, are you saying Rick doesn't have much of a clue and is a "yes man" or he knows his job could be on the line if he doesn't nail this draft?

Nope. I said what I said.

PapaL
05-10-2014, 10:46 PM
Why can't two guys work together towards a common goal?

Hervoyel
05-10-2014, 11:20 PM
Personally I think Rick Smith is going to surprise a lot of people over the next few years. I don't believe that McNair would have kept him around if he was as worthless as many people in here feel like he is. We're going to see him with a different HC and have a chance to compare and contrast the way things play out between the Smith/Kubiak and Smith/O'Brien eras.

My early estimation is that working with Kubiak handcuffed Smith to some extent and that the glimpses we caught of divisiveness toward the end of Kubiak's time could be traced back to Smith trying to be his own man. This is just speculation on my part but early on I think Smith made some mistakes. Clearly there have been picks that just didn't make sense and shouldn't have been made. If you look at the drafts most of the real mistakes early on were on defense.

That makes sense. Kubiak is an OC and in 2006 (When Kubiak was working with Casserly)-2008 we mostly hit on the offensive players we selected. He knew what he wanted and went after it.

On the other side of the ball we had Richard Smith muddling around with no idea what he was doing. I'm sure Rick Smith had input there (starting in 2007) more so than on offense and so we get crap like Amobi Okoye, Fred Bennett, Brandon Harrison, Antwaun Molden, Xavier Adibi, Frank Okam, and Dominique Barber selected.

Lots of missteps in secondary picks and just no sense that they're drafting with a plan on defense. Two years later you switch DC's and get Frank Bush in the house. He's not much better than Richard Smith but he's got a better eye for defensive talent and I imagine Rick is starting to learn some things as well. Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin, Glover Quin, Brice McCain show up. The next year Kareem Jackson, Earl Mitchell, and Darryl Sharpton arrive. Little bit better players than before, still no clue what to do with them but we're not drafting total crap every time we go for a defender anymore.

Wade shows up prior to 2011 and obviously he has way more input than either Richard Smith or Frank Bush had. From that point on I think the defensive picks are all Wade's and Rick isn't getting nearly as much say as before. Basically I lay the 11-13 defensive picks on Wade. Good or bad they're his guys. Rick was a yes man during this period but he must have done something right because he survived the purge. I think he got better at his job.

dc_txtech
05-10-2014, 11:53 PM
I posted this before but I stand behind the fact that Smith is still here and everybody else is gone.

I think the answer is that nobody really knows. I feel like Smith gets credit for all the bad picks and from what I've gathered on the boards the overall mindset seems to be Mario was a Kubiak pick, Okoye was a Smith pick, Duane Brown was a Gibbs pick, not sure who gets credit for Cushing, Kareem Jackson was a Smith pick, Watt was a Phillips pick, and so forth.

I think every pick is a mixture of opinions coming to the best compromise. I know two brothers that are both huge Bills fans and share a fantasy football team in a big money league, both super knowledgeable about the game. I asked them how they make decisions in the draft and they said that they typically agree on most things but if someone felt very strongly about a player they would cede to the strong feeling and draft that player.

This is my best guess as to the drafting style of the Texans. With that being said I don't think that Smith would still have his job if he was pro Akoye and anti Watt for example. If he wasn't right more than he was wrong I don't think Mcnair would be keeping him around. Nobody knows what goes on behind the scenes but Kubiak is gone, Phillips is gone, and Smith is still here. With these being the only facts I have to work with, I have to say that Smith was probably a lot more involved with the good picks than he gets credit for.

Wolf6151
05-11-2014, 02:54 AM
I obviously don't know for sure who was in charge of the draft but that draft sure seemed to take a turn for the worse in the 6th round. The first 5 picks were good/great and the last 5 sucked.

SAMURAITEXAN
05-11-2014, 03:22 AM
Personally I think Rick Smith is going to surprise a lot of people over the next few years. I don't believe that McNair would have kept him around if he was as worthless as many people in here feel like he is. We're going to see him with a different HC and have a chance to compare and contrast the way things play out between the Smith/Kubiak and Smith/O'Brien eras.

My early estimation is that working with Kubiak handcuffed Smith to some extent and that the glimpses we caught of divisiveness toward the end of Kubiak's time could be traced back to Smith trying to be his own man. This is just speculation on my part but early on I think Smith made some mistakes. Clearly there have been picks that just didn't make sense and shouldn't have been made. If you look at the drafts most of the real mistakes early on were on defense.

That makes sense. Kubiak is an OC and in 2006 (When Kubiak was working with Casserly)-2008 we mostly hit on the offensive players we selected. He knew what he wanted and went after it.

On the other side of the ball we had Richard Smith muddling around with no idea what he was doing. I'm sure Rick Smith had input there (starting in 2007) more so than on offense and so we get crap like Amobi Okoye, Fred Bennett, Brandon Harrison, Antwaun Molden, Xavier Adibi, Frank Okam, and Dominique Barber selected.

Lots of missteps in secondary picks and just no sense that they're drafting with a plan on defense. Two years later you switch DC's and get Frank Bush in the house. He's not much better than Richard Smith but he's got a better eye for defensive talent and I imagine Rick is starting to learn some things as well. Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin, Glover Quin, Brice McCain show up. The next year Kareem Jackson, Earl Mitchell, and Darryl Sharpton arrive. Little bit better players than before, still no clue what to do with them but we're not drafting total crap every time we go for a defender anymore.

Wade shows up prior to 2011 and obviously he has way more input than either Richard Smith or Frank Bush had. From that point on I think the defensive picks are all Wade's and Rick isn't getting nearly as much say as before. Basically I lay the 11-13 defensive picks on Wade. Good or bad they're his guys. Rick was a yes man during this period but he must have done something right because he survived the purge. I think he got better at his job.

A good observation and analyze IMO. Kubiak established relation with McNair prior to Smith's arrival to Houston. Kubiak is the one recommended Smith to McNair. With these reasons and long time relationship between Kubiak and Smith, made Smith more passive kinda GM to Kubiak. Richard Smith and Frank Bush are just like you mentioned.

With Wade Phillips (This name means a lot in Houston including me), how can you argue with the guy who has much more experience than you and got some eyes for the talents. You can learn many things from him.

For Smith/O'Brien era, they really communicated and prepare well for this draft. Seems like O'Brien told Smith what kind of prospects he wants and Smith found those guys while staying true to big boards. This is why this year's draft made much more sense to many of the Texans' fans at least I did.

honored82
05-11-2014, 04:15 AM
I obviously don't know for sure who was in charge of the draft but that draft sure seemed to take a turn for the worse in the 6th round. The first 5 picks were good/great and the last 5 sucked.

Thats the nature of the draft. The first few rounds are mostly impact players who will last in this league longer, they are famous for their talent and draft is exciting. The late rounds are usually unknowns who dissappear after a few years. Check last couple years drafts after top 100. Very few like Richard sherman make a name for themselves

Thorn
05-11-2014, 06:53 AM
Watch the interviews. OB repeatedly praised Rick and how easy he was to work with. Rick talked about their common vision regarding prospects. OB was impressed by how Rick stuck to their board. Rick obviously listened and respected OB's opinions on players he liked. CJ Fiedorowicz, for example, where Rick was not there to see his pro day.

Seems to me Rick is deferring a lot to a guy he recognizes as having a good football eye, and OB appreciating to organised way they conducted business. So far, no throwing under the bus moments.

None of us have any freaking idea, but if it were up to me, Playoffs description of how it worked pleases me the most.

Thorn
05-11-2014, 08:08 AM
On the subject, here's a few quotes from O'Brien and Smith

Texans general manager Rick Smith and coach Bill O’Brien were upbeat after Mr. Irrelevant had been called and the 2014 NFL draft was complete.

The duo were even joking.

“He’s sick of me,” O’Brien said, referring to his GM.

The new coach emphasized he was only kidding.

“One thing I give Rick a lot of credit for is, I’m new to this process as a head football coach,” O’Brien said. “And just watching him during this process stick to the board and the communication he and I have had throughout this process, I think it’s been really good. And so to me, again, that’s what stands out about the whole three days.”

Smith didn’t meet with Savage in Pittsburgh. But the GM wanted to exit the draft having seen players through the “same lens” as O’Brien. Their similar take on Savage captured the goal.

“Very much what (O’Brien) described is what I saw,” Smith said. “We see things very similarly.”

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/05/texans-obrien-smith-wrap-up-2014-draft-no-ceiling-for-savage/#23243101=0

DocBar
05-11-2014, 08:41 AM
Watch the interviews. OB repeatedly praised Rick and how easy he was to work with. Rick talked about their common vision regarding prospects. OB was impressed by how Rick stuck to their board. Rick obviously listened and respected OB's opinions on players he liked. CJ Fiedorowicz, for example, where Rick was not there to see his pro day.

Seems to me Rick is deferring a lot to a guy he recognizes as having a good football eye, and OB appreciating to organised way they conducted business. So far, no throwing under the bus moments.

I agree with this. Smith has a brand new scouting dept to work with, so who would he trust enough to buck his coaching staff?

infantrycak
05-11-2014, 09:03 AM
I agree with this. Smith has a brand new scouting dept to work with, so who would he trust enough to buck his coaching staff?

When did Smith get a brand new scouting department that he didn't select?

Texian
05-11-2014, 09:42 AM
I agree with this. Smith has a brand new scouting dept to work with, so who would he trust enough to buck his coaching staff?

My recollection of Smith's brand new scouting staff was not long after Rick arrived in Houston.

Smith was an assistant GM in Denver under Shanahan w/ Shanahan having final say. Kubiak was hired long before Smith got here and Gary is on record saying he had final say on the 53 man roster. Smith has bascially learned and trained in the position of working FOR a Head Coach.

Not long after BOB was hired, several interviews were done, with some of BOB's mentors and head coaches. The one consistent and constant piece of advice that was reported BOB received was, "Make sure you're in charge". My guess is that is the case with BOB in Houston, he has final say on the 53 man roster. I don't think McNair had any problem giving BOB final say. As for Rick, it was keep calm and carry on.

As for the draft, I think it is Rick and the scouting staff who do the legwork, homework in gathering information and doing all the due diligence on the players from August through January. In January BOB and staff get involved with Rick and scouting staff. However it is BOB who prioritizes the draft and leaves it to Rick to organize and operate the draft. The final say on who the pick will be, comes from BOB and sometimes Bob. I think it may have been O'Brien trusting in his more seasoned DC Romeo Crennel on the Clowney and Nix picks, more so than Rick. ALL IMHO!

Thorn
05-11-2014, 10:08 AM
Whatever anyone's opinion of how this organization actually operates behind the scenes is theirs. But whatever it actually is, their first draft together seems to have been a very good one.

ThaShark316
05-11-2014, 10:18 AM
If these guys pan out, BOB.

If they don't, Rick.

That's how it works 'round this city.

IDEXAN
05-11-2014, 10:25 AM
I think that Clowney is not a OB sort of guy because he obviously isn't known for an intense work ethic which seems to be a hallmark of what our new HC expects in his players, so I'm very happy that it was apparently Smith who prevailed in the decision about the 1.1. I just think worst case scenario Clowney is gonna be our AlDon Smith without the off field problems of the troubled x-Mizzou defender.
But the heart of the Draft (rounds 2 thru 4), were O'Brien's as clearly we haven't seen those kinds of guys in recent Drafts when Kubiak was the HC.

PapaL
05-11-2014, 11:04 AM
I think that Clowney is not a OB sort of guy because he obviously isn't known for an intense work ethic which seems to be a hallmark of what our new HC expects in his players, so I'm very happy that it was apparently Smith who prevailed in the decision about the 1.1. I just think worst case scenario Clowney is gonna be our AlDon Smith without the off field problems of the troubled x-Mizzou defender.
But the heart of the Draft (rounds 2 thru 4), were O'Brien's as clearly we haven't seen those kinds of guys in recent Drafts when Kubiak was the HC.



O'Brien has been quoted MULTIPLE times saying the comlete opposite of what you think he thinks about Clowney;LINK (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Bill-OBrien-has-no-concerns-with-Jadeveon-Clowneys-motor.html)

One of the main concerns clouding Clowney is that he's not a high-motor player on game days. O'Brien said he didn't have those reservations.

"I don't have any concerns about his motor," he said. "There are 90 plays a game in college. You'd be hard-pressed to find a defensive lineman to go like his life's on the line ... He played a lot of plays. He played hard this year. I think when the game was on the line — the Tennessee game, the Georgia game — this guy showed up and made a lot of plays."

Lord Bills
05-11-2014, 12:34 PM
im just glad kubiak is gone and we can finally have a no huddle offense.

houstonspartan
05-11-2014, 01:19 PM
Why can't two guys work together towards a common goal?

Agree. It doesn't have to be "either" "or." They both appeared to have worked well together. That should be enough.

Frankly, I'm so thrilled that Gary Kubiak is no longer here that who ran the draft is of no importance to me.

xtruroyaltyx
05-11-2014, 01:30 PM
Rick and bob.

And romeo and scouts.

ChampionTexan
05-11-2014, 01:48 PM
I just think worst case scenario Clowney is gonna be our AlDon Smith without the off field problems of the troubled x-Mizzou defender.


So the worst case scenario is a guy who gets 33.5 sacks his first two years, makes first team all pro his second year, and then doesn't miss 5 games his third season, most likely allowing him double-digit sacks a third year in a row, and who knows what other honors?

What's best case scenario?

houstonspartan
05-11-2014, 01:52 PM
So the worst case scenario is a guy who gets 33.5 sacks his first two years, makes first team all pro his second year, and then doesn't miss 5 games his third season, most likely allowing him double-digit sacks a third year in a row, and who knows what other honors?

What's best case scenario?

LOL. That's what I was thinking. I WANT an Aldon Smith with no off-the-field issues. Bring it on.

IDEXAN
05-11-2014, 03:43 PM
So the worst case scenario is a guy who gets 33.5 sacks his first two years, makes first team all pro his second year, and then doesn't miss 5 games his third season, most likely allowing him double-digit sacks a third year in a row, and who knows what other honors?

What's best case scenario?
I don't expect Clowney to have the kind of incredible production that Smith had in SF his first couple years there, but that doesn't mean he won't play as well as Smith did. We look to have an improved defense, but we aren't the elite level defense that Smiths been surrounded by in SF, not yet at least.

Errant Hothy
05-11-2014, 08:25 PM
If these guys pan out, BOB.

If they don't, Rick.

That's how it works 'round this city.

This is a new Texan fan base truth.

You can already see it in the "grades" thread. If somebody loves the pick it must be a BOB pick, and if it's deemed a head scratched its one of Smith's picks.

thunderkyss
05-11-2014, 09:11 PM
Ricky Bobby

Hervoyel
05-11-2014, 09:30 PM
Ricky Bobby


Oh yeah! I can see them together in the war room....

"SHAKE 'N' BAKE! THAT JUST HAPPENED!"

DX-TEX
05-11-2014, 09:33 PM
im just glad kubiak is gone and we can finally have a no huddle offense.

So we WONT run draw plays on 3rd and long?

thunderkyss
05-11-2014, 10:02 PM
Oh yeah! I can see them together in the war room....

"SHAKE 'N' BAKE! THAT JUST HAPPENED!"

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/97/976e35d349eb4db2a8bb1e9ab421a44e8b8e72351985555060 6ba1a2d09815cb.jpg

I bet there was a lot of that going on in the war room.

DocBar
05-12-2014, 12:51 AM
When did Smith get a brand new scouting department that he didn't select?

My recollection of Smith's brand new scouting staff was not long after Rick arrived in Houston.

Smith was an assistant GM in Denver under Shanahan w/ Shanahan having final say. Kubiak was hired long before Smith got here and Gary is on record saying he had final say on the 53 man roster. Smith has bascially learned and trained in the position of working FOR a Head Coach.

Not long after BOB was hired, several interviews were done, with some of BOB's mentors and head coaches. The one consistent and constant piece of advice that was reported BOB received was, "Make sure you're in charge". My guess is that is the case with BOB in Houston, he has final say on the 53 man roster. I don't think McNair had any problem giving BOB final say. As for Rick, it was keep calm and carry on.

As for the draft, I think it is Rick and the scouting staff who do the legwork, homework in gathering information and doing all the due diligence on the players from August through January. In January BOB and staff get involved with Rick and scouting staff. However it is BOB who prioritizes the draft and leaves it to Rick to organize and operate the draft. The final say on who the pick will be, comes from BOB and sometimes Bob. I think it may have been O'Brien trusting in his more seasoned DC Romeo Crennel on the Clowney and Nix picks, more so than Rick. ALL IMHO! I thought this (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Texans-fire-pro-personnel-director-scout.html) was common knowledge. Did I miss something or read too much into this? Regardless, the linked article would suggest Smith would need to rely more on his coaching staff than normal. :shrug:

infantrycak
05-12-2014, 01:06 AM
I thought this (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Texans-fire-pro-personnel-director-scout.html) was common knowledge. Did I miss something or read too much into this? Regardless, the linked article would suggest Smith would need to rely more on his coaching staff than normal. :shrug:

Well what Texian was talking about didn't support what you were saying as it was about changes from Casserly to Smith that happened years ago. Your link is about two guys in the PRO department so had nothing to do with the draft which is what I thought we were talking about.

DocBar
05-12-2014, 01:18 AM
Well what Texian was talking about didn't support what you were saying as it was about changes from Casserly to Smith that happened years ago. Your link is about two guys in the PRO department so had nothing to do with the draft which is what I thought we were talking about.So the scout was a pro personnel scout? In that case I read more into it than was there. Oops...I was talking about the draft. I just didn't differentiate between pro and college.

DexmanC
05-12-2014, 02:38 AM
There is no Rick vs. Bob.

This combination seems to have struck a home run on its first at-bat.

I'm sure there was more to this draft than sending Rick to fetch what Boss BoB told him to go get.

I'm liking what I've seen from this combination, when it comes to personnel moves, so far.

Norg
05-12-2014, 02:41 AM
they still drafted from need positions I think

guard was a major need since wade smith retired

NT was a need so we got NIX


im not surprised we drafted a QB but we reall didn't need to do that IMO not like we are going anywhere dis season with or without savage

Playoffs
05-12-2014, 12:53 PM
There is no Rick vs. Bob.

This combination seems to have struck a home run on its first at-bat.

I'm sure there was more to this draft than sending Rick to fetch what Boss BoB told him to go get.

I'm liking what I've seen from this combination, when it comes to personnel moves, so far.

Agree. Going back through the draft I'm awed by the patience Rick exercised. 2nd round grade on Nix, one of a handful of true 0-techs in the draft and he waits until the 19th pick to jump ahead of Green Bay and steal him. Packer fans weren't happy.

And getting the QB at the top of your new coach's board at the tail end of the 4th... with the Cards having 3 picks in between and preferring big-armed prospects... I'd have been a nervous wreck.

Double Barrel
05-12-2014, 01:30 PM
There is no Rick vs. Bob.

This combination seems to have struck a home run on its first at-bat.

I'm sure there was more to this draft than sending Rick to fetch what Boss BoB told him to go get.

I'm liking what I've seen from this combination, when it comes to personnel moves, so far.

Well said, man.

Now, update your sig. :fingergun:

DexmanC
05-12-2014, 04:09 PM
Well said, man.

Now, update your sig. :fingergun:

Good idea about updating the sig...

The whole Kubiak regime numbed me. I would watch the Texans every week, but was always watching for their lack of discipline to screw up a win. A couple years ago, they won a lot of games, but most of those wins were "hold-ons."

I have a feeling this coaching regime will look to squash their opponents, Bill Goldberg WCW '98 style. Can't wait to see it.

NCTexan
05-12-2014, 04:22 PM
they still drafted from need positions I think

guard was a major need since wade smith retired

NT was a need so we got NIX


im not surprised we drafted a QB but we reall didn't need to do that IMO not like we are going anywhere dis season with or without savage

You really can't not take need into account at some level. Especially deeper in the draft when there's almost no separation between some players you like why not choose need?

Though I really think you can make an argument that 3 of our first 4 picks were BPA (I'm not sure about CJF. I like the pick, but I had some players available ranked above him.)

Texian
05-17-2014, 10:07 AM
Agree. Going back through the draft I'm awed by the patience Rick exercised. 2nd round grade on Nix, one of a handful of true 0-techs in the draft and he waits until the 19th pick to jump ahead of Green Bay and steal him. Packer fans weren't happy.

And getting the QB at the top of your new coach's board at the tail end of the 4th... with the Cards having 3 picks in between and preferring big-armed prospects... I'd have been a nervous wreck.

You're assuming Nix had a 2nd RD grade. Some say he was a 1st RD talent. Still Nix took a substantial fall. There are most likely valid reasons why Nix was not picked earlier. Again you assume the Packers were drafting Nix and Packer fans were upset. Supposition. There is a high probability that Ted Thompson knew why Nix was falling and would've also taken a pass on Nix. Understandably that the fans may have been upset as they likely didn't know or understand Nix's fall. There is also more Chubby Chasers fans than non Chubby Chaser fans. When you study Nix college career you find he was a non factor in more games, than the games where he contributed at least 1 tackle.

Nix was more likely a Romeo Crennel pick than a Rick Smith pick. So are you still a fan of giving up picks #101 and #141 to move up to take a player who will likely only be on the field for 20%-30% of the defensive snaps and who will likely only contribute a minimum of 1 tackle in less than 50% of the games he plays in? Don't you think that you could find this kind of potential and upside somewhere in the 5th or 6th rd and without trading any valuable draft picks to do so?

DBCooper
05-17-2014, 10:26 AM
You're assuming Nix had a 2nd RD grade. Some say he was a 1st RD talent. Still Nix took a substantial fall. There are most likely valid reasons why Nix was not picked earlier. Again you assume the Packers were drafting Nix and Packer fans were upset. Supposition. There is a high probability that Ted Thompson knew why Nix was falling and would've also taken a pass on Nix. Understandably that the fans may have been upset as they likely didn't know or understand Nix's fall. There is also more Chubby Chasers fans than non Chubby Chaser fans. When you study Nix college career you find he was a non factor in more games, than the games where he contributed at least 1 tackle.

Nix was more likely a Romeo Crennel pick than a Rick Smith pick. So are you still a fan of giving up picks #101 and #141 to move up to take a player who will likely only be on the field for 20%-30% of the defensive snaps and who will likely only contribute a minimum of 1 tackle in less than 50% of the games he plays in? Don't you think that you could find this kind of potential and upside somewhere in the 5th or 6th rd and without trading any valuable draft picks to do so?

This is the problem with stats.

I don't care if he makes a single tackle all season, do you have any clue what having a space eating NT like Nix does for JJ, Clowney, and Cushing?

IDEXAN
05-17-2014, 10:51 AM
Nix was more likely a Romeo Crennel pick than a Rick Smith pick. So are you still a fan of giving up picks #101 and #141 to move up to take a player who will likely only be on the field for 20%-30% of the defensive snaps and who will likely only contribute a minimum of 1 tackle in less than 50% of the games he plays in? Don't you think that you could find this kind of potential and upside somewhere in the 5th or 6th rd and without trading any valuable draft picks to do so?
The Notebook: Is Louis Nix III the best of both worlds?
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/5/5/5666342/the-notebook-is-louis-nix-nose-tackle-4-3-defense-scouting-report
*****
That's the title out of this very comprehensive piece about Nix, and considering him as a fit as a NT in a 3-4, or a 4-3, or for both. It goes on for quite some time, but it's a good read and really gets into the nuts and bolts of playing the nose position in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.
Obviously the "insiders" knew/ know something about Nix that these guys who do the mocks don't because the mockers all had Nix early, first or second round. Don't know if the weight issue or injury history is the biggest concern, but there's some serious concerns. Something that came out of this article was that the author said Nix had tremendous hussle, was a real scrappy guy even when having a bad game.

Playoffs
05-17-2014, 11:18 AM
...about Nix, and considering him as a fit as a NT in a 3-4, or a 4-3, or for both...Majority saw him as only 3-4 NT.

Obviously the "insiders" knew/ know something about Nix that these guys who do the mocks don't because the mockers all had Nix early...Injury concerns, scheme fit concerns, discipline concerns. My concerns center more around "does he really want to be the best"/will he man-up? Nix is a jokester/goof-off -- that and his social media/video game time turned off some teams.

Dan Shonka and Greg Gabriel both graded Nix as the #2 NT behind Donald. Shonka had him solidly in 1st round.

With the league almost equally divided (17 teams use the 3-4 for a base defense, 15 teams use the 4-3), the Journal Sentinel asked scouts to rank players based on the scheme their team employs. There were 11 scouts representing 3-4 teams and eight from 4-3 teams.

In each poll, scouts were asked to rank their top five players (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/boom-or-bust-backdrop-complicates-defensive-line-picks-b99262354z1-258030941.html), with five points assigned to first place and so forth. No limits were placed on the players that the scouts could choose from other than players couldn't have been voted for in the linebacker polls that appeared Monday.

Here were the poll results:

Nose tackle in a 3-4: Louis Nix, 43 (five firsts); Timmy Jernigan, 32 (four firsts); DaQuan Jones, 26; Ego Ferguson, 15; Aaron Donald, 14 (two firsts); Justin Ellis, 12; Shamar Stephen, eight; Daniel McCullers, seven; Mike Pennel, three; Kelcy Quarles, two; and Beau Allen, Dominique Easley and Zach Kerr, one.

Texian
05-17-2014, 01:29 PM
This is the problem with stats.

I don't care if he makes a single tackle all season, do you have any clue what having a space eating NT like Nix does for JJ, Clowney, and Cushing?

The problem with stats is if people don't like them they tend to make excuses for them or just simply ignore them altogether. However when there are "no statistics available" it becomes much easier to ignore them. :)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/16806/year/2012/type/college/louis-nix

DBCooper
05-17-2014, 01:35 PM
The problem with stats is if people don't like them they tend to make excuses for them or just simply ignore them altogether. However when there are "no statistics available" it becomes much easier to ignore them. :)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/16806/year/2012/type/college/louis-nix

So, according to the almighty stats, how many tackles should a good NT have in a season?

Stats are nothing when talking about what a good NT does for your defense.

Texian
05-17-2014, 01:57 PM
So, according to the almighty stats, how many tackles should a good NT have in a season?

Stats are nothing when talking about what a good NT does for your defense.

All the Fans of Girth are wishing and hoping that Louis Nix is the next Vince Wilfork. For comparison sake Wilfork had 64 tackles his last year in college NOT < 10. Nix didn't have 64 tackles in his college career.

DBCooper
05-17-2014, 02:01 PM
All the Chubby Chasers are wishing and hoping that Louis Nix is the next Vince Wilfork. For comparison sake Wilfork had 64 tackles his last year in college NOT < 10. Nix didn't have 64 tackles in his college career.

I am hoping he's the next Wilfork, even better yet the Nix III!

And I don't know the difference in the 2 defenses each played on so I can't tell you what kind of comparison that is.

We got a steal on a good player we needed in a Crennel defense.

Cry all the way to the Super Bowl for all I care.

Texian
05-17-2014, 02:13 PM
I am hoping he's the next Wilfork, even better yet the Nix III!

And I don't know the difference in the 2 defenses each played on so I can't tell you what kind of comparison that is.

We got a steal on a good player we needed in a Crennel defense.

Cry all the way to the Super Bowl for all I care.

Both were NTs. Watch Alabama game. Nix was abused by Bama OC Barrett Jones and therefore was used abused by Lacy and Yeldon. It was not a pretty site from Nix's perspective.

76Texan
05-17-2014, 03:34 PM
Both were NTs. Watch Alabama game. Nix was abused by Bama OC Barrett Jones and therefore was used abused by Lacy and Yeldon. It was not a pretty site from Nix's perspective.

We must be watching different games.
I scored a decent win for Nix despite Jones' having help.

Nix is no younger version of Wilfork.
He's not even in the same breadth as BJ Raji out of college.

I thought the way the game was going, drafting a big man like Raji with a first is a risk.
I have no problem with Nix where he was drafted at.
The upside is more worthwhile.

Texian
05-17-2014, 04:18 PM
We must be watching different games.
I scored a decent win for Nix despite Jones' having help.

Nix is no younger version of Wilfork.
He's not even in the same breadth as BJ Raji out of college.

I thought the way the game was going, drafting a big man like Raji with a first is a risk.
I have no problem with Nix where he was drafted at.
The upside is more worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBLKebN_b8

By my review Nix was one on one the entire game and was easily blocked or run out of the play by Barrett in almost every occasion.

76Texan
05-17-2014, 05:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBLKebN_b8

By my review Nix was one on one the entire game and was easily blocked or run out of the play by Barrett in almost every occasion.

We're watching the same game alright.

So I scored it for Nix.

Obviously, if you score a draw in favor of the Center, you would be viewing it differently than my take.

That would be required of a first round grade NT, which I never Considered Nix to be.

I'm somewhat busy at the moment helping my nephew starting his endeavor, but it would please me just the same to go through each play with you, just to know what we're expecting.

Good exercise for the mind.

Playoffs
05-17-2014, 05:46 PM
We're watching the same game alright.

So I scored it for Nix.

...it would please me just the same to go through each play with you, just to know what we're expecting.

Good exercise for the mind.

Let's do that when you have the time, 76T...

Perhaps better placed in the Nix thread: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104995

Always enjoyed your takes.

thunderkyss
05-17-2014, 07:09 PM
Nix was more likely a Romeo Crennel pick than a Rick Smith pick. So are you still a fan of giving up picks #101 and #141 to move up to take a player who will likely only be on the field for 20%-30% of the defensive snaps and who will likely only contribute a minimum of 1 tackle in less than 50% of the games he plays in? Don't you think that you could find this kind of potential and upside somewhere in the 5th or 6th rd and without trading any valuable draft picks to do so?

I know he plays a different position, but I'm hoping he can replace Antonio's function on the team. It's either him, or 6th round pick Jeoffrey Pagan. or Jared Crick.

One of those guys have got to supply pressure up the middle, demanding a double team. If Nix is that guy, he'll stay on the field while the DE is taken off. Nix can be hell in a pass rushing situations, attacking one gap... we'll have to wait & see, but the point is that we don't know if he'll be the one coming off on third down. Still, he may not be coming off on all third downs, maybe he takes 60% of them, maybe 40%, who knows?

thunderkyss
05-17-2014, 07:14 PM
Dan Shonka and Greg Gabriel both graded Nix as the #2 NT behind Donald. Shonka had him solidly in 1st round.

Donald was one of the few guys in this draft that I was second guessing. When he was taken, I got to thinking the, "Man, maybe we should have taken an 'off-value' trade just so we could have gotten him."

Then when we got Nix in the third... well

http://i.minus.com/i5Ihp2vEJ6pn1.gif

Texian
05-17-2014, 07:20 PM
I know he plays a different position, but I'm hoping he can replace Antonio's function on the team. It's either him, or 6th round pick Jeoffrey Pagan. or Jared Crick.

One of those guys have got to supply pressure up the middle, demanding a double team. If Nix is that guy, he'll stay on the field while the DE is taken off. Nix can be hell in a pass rushing situations, attacking one gap... we'll have to wait & see, but the point is that we don't know if he'll be the one coming off on third down. Still, he may not be coming off on all third downs, maybe he takes 60% of them, maybe 40%, who knows?

My GUESS is Nix will replace Earl Mitchell at NT and Pagan will line up as your new Ninja.

Based on games watched, I'm not sure Nix will command a double team unless he changes his style of play. IMHO all double teams will directed at Watt until further notice. For example in the Alabama game it appears Barrett Jones did some good film study of Nix. Nix first initial move is to stand up. At that point Jones is able to gain leverage and find BIG success in directing and running Nix out of the play most of the time. IMHO Nix needs to be able to do a much better job at anchoring the middle and holding his ground before the double teams begin to show up.

thunderkyss
05-17-2014, 09:52 PM
My GUESS is Nix will replace Earl Mitchell at NT and Pagan will line up as your new Ninja.


No arguments there. I said replace Antonio's function of demanding a double team. Antonio was consistently doubled on just about every play.



Based on games watched, I'm not sure Nix will command a double team unless he changes his style of play.


Ok.


IMHO all double teams will directed at Watt until further notice.


No doubt in my mind Watt will continue to be doubled, but someone else will as well. That's what makes Brooks & Whitney's performance so bad imo. Jj & Antonio were consistently fighting double teams. Not only were Brooks & Whitney ineffective against a single man, but often times that man was a TE.... even worse, a RB/FB.

houstonspartan
05-18-2014, 11:45 AM
Good idea about updating the sig...



The whole Kubiak regime numbed me. I would watch the Texans every week, but was always watching for their lack of discipline to screw up a win. A couple years ago, they won a lot of games, but most of those wins were "hold-ons."



I have a feeling this coaching regime will look to squash their opponents, Bill Goldberg WCW '98 style. Can't wait to see it.


And I remember when you used to be one of Kubiak's defenders. It was so cool to see you finally see the light. It was watching a kid grow up and discover the world. Lol.

I know what you mean about those "hold on" games. When Kubiak was coach, I used to always wait for the 4th quarter meltdown. You knew it was coming.

Right now I'm in "wait and see" mode with O'Brien, but, I like what I see so far. He got my attention when he rolled into Reliant and fired everybody and their mamma. Dude isn't playing around.

Texecutioner
05-18-2014, 11:53 AM
And I remember when you used to be one of Kubiak's defenders. It was so cool to see you finally see the light. It was watching a kid grow up and discover the world. Lol.

I know what you mean about those "hold on" games. When Kubiak was coach, I used to always wait for the 4th quarter meltdown. You knew it was coming.

Right now I'm in "wait and see" mode with O'Brien, but, I like what I see so far. He got my attention when he rolled into Reliant and fired everybody and their mamma. Dude isn't playing around.

I remember the season where we won all those games and went undefeated for a while. Everyone thought Kubes was changed or whatever. He never fooled me. It was that game on Thanksgiving that gave me the worst feeling in my stomach where we almost lost to Jacksonville. We had a chance to win the game and Kubiak went for a safe running play instead of a pass to move the chains to get a TD to seal the game. He was afraid to run a real play when Schaub passed for over 500 yards and that kicker had been missing kicks. Kubiak wanted to trust the kicker again when he had already been off in that game. We missed the kick of course and ends dup winning due to Jacksonville choking it away as well, but both teams played like non winning teams. I created a thread that day and got bashed pretty hard as I knew I would. Wasn't a surprise at all to see the rest of the season go into the ****ter that year and then followed by a 2-14 season.