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Txn_in_Oki
04-13-2014, 02:31 PM
Watching an interesting documentary on Tom Brady vs all the other QBs picked up in the 2000 draft. All the picks that went ahead of him that were "prototypical" quarterbacks and all the disrespect piled on him despite what he did in college.

Not trying to relate it to anyone in particular this year, but I think it's funny how measurables can blind people. Granted, he had some luck along the way.

I'm not a fan, but I can respect what he's done in his career.

The doc is called "The Brady 6".

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 03:12 PM
Watching an interesting documentary on Tom Brady vs all the other QBs picked up in the 2000 draft. All the picks that went ahead of him that were "prototypical" quarterbacks and all the disrespect piled on him despite what he did in college.


Are you saying Brady was not prototypical?

I've been trying to catch the Brady 6 for years. People refer to it all the time & I've yet to watch it.

The Pencil Neck
04-13-2014, 03:35 PM
Are you saying Brady was not prototypical?


He was not prototypical coming out of college.

6' 4", 210#. Did not have a big arm. Was SERIOUSLY not athletic.

He ran a 5.28 40 yard dash. This year, Keith Wenning's 5.00 40 yard dash put him at 15th.

He jumped a horrific 24.5 vertical. This year, Tom Savage's 27" vertical put him 15th.

His 3-cone was 7.2. Which would have put him in between A.J. McCarron's 7.18 and Bryn Renner's 7.22 for 11th place this year.

He was not highly recruited. He wasn't really The Guy in college. He did not put up huge numbers at Michigan and really had to fight to keep his job there.

Playoffs
04-13-2014, 03:38 PM
I've been trying to catch the Brady 6 for years...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13l8o6_the-brady-6_sport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLlVHfdsOGs

Txn_in_Oki
04-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Are you saying Brady was not prototypical?

I've been trying to catch the Brady 6 for years. People refer to it all the time & I've yet to watch it.

They read his scout sheet from before the draft a few times and it makes him sound terrible.

WolverineFan
04-13-2014, 05:46 PM
Brady is the player he is today because of all that pre-draft and draft slide stuff that he put up with. It put a giant chip on the shoulder of a guy who already had one.

He watches film all day every day and takes every single practice rep in every single practice. His will to make himself better is something that is extremely rare and is the main reason for his success.

Texecutioner
04-13-2014, 05:53 PM
Brady is the player he is today because of all that pre-draft and draft slide stuff that he put up with. It put a giant chip on the shoulder of a guy who already had one.

He watches film all day every day and takes every single practice rep in every single practice. His will to make himself better is something that is extremely rare and is the main reason for his success.

YEP, And that's why I think he's been easily the best QB of this generation and all time at this point. He has led his team to the most SB's other than Elway, but won more than Elway. He has had to do it with different WR's almost every season practically and has the best post season record for any QB ever if I'm not mistaken. BB said that he was the hardest player to ever coach due to his knowledge of the game and every team they face each week. He said that him and the rest of the coaches on their staff have to do extra just to know what Brady is going to bring up in their meetings, because he is more prepared then them. Brady isn't and never has been your athletic type of QB. He simply understands defenses better than anyone and how to strategize to beat each defense. For all of the props people give to Manning for all of his audibles, people seem to gloss over the "hurry up" offense that Brady runs like a masterpiece which is about as creative as anything Manning does at the line of scrimmage.

The Pencil Neck
04-13-2014, 05:57 PM
Brady is the player he is today because of all that pre-draft and draft slide stuff that he put up with. It put a giant chip on the shoulder of a guy who already had one.

He watches film all day every day and takes every single practice rep in every single practice. His will to make himself better is something that is extremely rare and is the main reason for his success.

The thing about him is that he was able to look at what his flaws were and he was able to improve himself and set up a routine/schedule/regiment to eliminate those flaws.

It's one thing for someone to tell you that you've got to do everything faster but another thing entirely for you to take that information and come up with a way to train yourself to do everything faster.

TEXANRED
04-13-2014, 06:43 PM
Brady is the player he is today because of all that pre-draft and draft slide stuff that he put up with. It put a giant chip on the shoulder of a guy who already had one.

He watches film all day every day and takes every single practice rep in every single practice. His will to make himself better is something that is extremely rare and is the main reason for his success.

I like Tom Brady but he is what he is today because Adam Venateri is a clutcch field goal kicker.

Texan4Ever
04-13-2014, 08:14 PM
No one will doubt that there are A LOT of factors that go into the success of a football player. Its not just intangibles but coaching that plays a pivotal role in a players development.

What if Tom Brady played for the Browns, would he have had the same success? What if David Carr played for the Patriots, would his career have been different?

We can debate this all day long but there are reasons why the previously drafted players failed in the NFL prior to Brady being picked. Carmazzi for example played for a small-school not known for football and the NFL game was beyond him. Not to mention he was thrust into the starting lineup AFAIK.

Texecutioner
04-13-2014, 08:21 PM
No one will doubt that there are A LOT of factors that go into the success of a football player. Its not just intangibles but coaching that plays a pivotal role in a players development.

What if Tom Brady played for the Browns, would he have had the same success? What if David Carr played for the Patriots, would his career have been different?

We can debate this all day long but there are reasons why the previously drafted players failed in the NFL prior to Brady being picked. Carmazzi for example played for a small-school not known for football and the NFL game was beyond him. Not to mention he was thrust into the starting lineup AFAIK.

I don't see how Carr's career could be debated at this point. He sucked everywhere and admitted himself that he didn't work hard enough. Great QB's can play well no matter where they play. Manning did great in two franchises. Montana did great in two franchises. Brees was great when he left SD and became elite when he went to NO. Put Rodgers on the Browns and that team would transform immediately. Carr being put in the same sentence with any of these guys, especially Brady is nonsense from a "what if" standpoint. Coaches don't and never have made great QB's. Great QB's have made regular coaches seem godly though.

A better question would be where would McCarthy be if he had Carr instead of Rodgers? Where would BB be without Brady taking the job of Bledsoe? He'd probably be a DC somewhere right now. Where would Siefert's legacy be if he hadn't took over a team that had Montana that transitioned into Steve Young? The biggest of all would be where would Shanahan be right now if he didn't coach a team that had Elway? Those are the real questions marks.

DX-TEX
04-13-2014, 08:59 PM
We already have Brady 2.0 on our roster:

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/T+j+Yates+Houston+Texans+v+Indianapolis+Colts+Tj6n _IgaEfBl.jpg

Just needs some BOB coaching and BAM!

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 09:03 PM
I don't see how Carr's career could be debated at this point. He sucked everywhere and admitted himself that he didn't work hard enough. Great QB's can play well no matter where they play. Manning did great in two franchises. Montana did great in two franchises. Brees was great when he left SD and became elite when he went to NO. Put Rodgers on the Browns and that team would transform immediately. Carr being put in the same sentence with any of these guys, especially Brady is nonsense from a "what if" standpoint. Coaches don't and never have made great QB's. Great QB's have made regular coaches seem godly though.

I don't know if I believe that. There's a big difference in going to New England, where they expected to go into the play offs & contend for a Championship & coming to an expansion team where we were learning how to win two games in a row.

I thought David looked good his first two years, two & half. Somewhere along the way, he got tired of being the only one who cared about winning (I'm sure he thought that was what was going on). We weren't expecting to be in the play offs for at least 3 of his first four years in the league. It's kind of hard to believe you're headed in the right direction seeing what he was seeing every day.

On the other hand, if he went to New England, where he was the 4th QB, where he was selected with the 199th pick.... Tom Brady was fighting for a roster spot from day one. That changes how you approach things.

Texecutioner
04-13-2014, 09:45 PM
I don't know if I believe that. There's a big difference in going to New England, where they expected to go into the play offs & contend for a Championship & coming to an expansion team where we were learning how to win two games in a row.

I thought David looked good his first two years, two & half. Somewhere along the way, he got tired of being the only one who cared about winning (I'm sure he thought that was what was going on). We weren't expecting to be in the play offs for at least 3 of his first four years in the league. It's kind of hard to believe you're headed in the right direction seeing what he was seeing every day.

On the other hand, if he went to New England, where he was the 4th QB, where he was selected with the 199th pick.... Tom Brady was fighting for a roster spot from day one. That changes how you approach things.

None of the stuff you're talking about really changes anything. QB's are all trying to play well on Sunday and are motivated to win. Some may be more than others, but Carr stunk. He stunk here every year. He stunk where he went to later even worse. It sounds more like you guys are trying to land more credit to someone who wore a Texans uniform other than accepting the fact that he was really bad when it came to the pro level. Carr became one of the worst first round draft picks ever. Ever. That says a lot. All of the twisting and reasoning is just subjective ways of trying to argue something. The fact is that David didn't do well at all using the approach he had. He chose that approach. Many other QB's every other season are picked first in the draft and are in the same situation or very similar. They don't all become warriors in the film room. They don't all have to right away. David would have been awful no matter what he did or tried. If he would have been in a bette situation the differences would have been minor. Elite level HOF QB's can be successful anywhere.

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 09:51 PM
None of the stuff you're talking about really changes anything. QB's are all trying to play well on Sunday and are motivated to win. Some may be more than others, but Carr stunk. He stunk here every year.

:ok:

Texecutioner
04-13-2014, 10:00 PM
:ok:

I guess you must have just copy and pasted your previous post from someone else. You don't seem to believe it.

ArlingtonTexan
04-13-2014, 10:02 PM
The thing about him is that he was able to look at what his flaws were and he was able to improve himself and set up a routine/schedule/regiment to eliminate those flaws.

It's one thing for someone to tell you that you've got to do everything faster but another thing entirely for you to take that information and come up with a way to train yourself to do everything faster.

Most fans would do better forgetting about Brady. he is so outside of any manner of any analytical way of how to find a starting NFL QB (much less one of the best ever) that you have to just admire him and the Patriots and his taking advantage of a specific situation.

Most players who are bad an athlete as he was (would test better today than then) are never drafted and most dudes who are drafted in 6th round no matter how athletic are done in a couple of years.

WolverineFan
04-13-2014, 11:17 PM
I like Tom Brady but he is what he is today because Adam Venateri is a clutcch field goal kicker.

In his 5 SB appearances, Brady is.....

128/197 (65.0%)
1,277 yards
9 TD
2 INT

But yea, it was all Vinatieri.

TEXANRED
04-13-2014, 11:26 PM
In his 5 SB appearances, Brady is.....

128/197 (65.0%)
1,277 yards
9 TD
2 INT

But yea, it was all Vinatieri.

Don't quote numbers at me. Did you watch his first two superbowls? Who won the tuck rule game. Oh, sorry,it was Adam Vinatieri.

Maybe had Manning not had Vanderchoke as his FG kicker it would be Peyton at 3-5 for the SB.

WolverineFan
04-14-2014, 12:33 AM
Don't quote numbers at me. Did you watch his first two superbowls? Who won the tuck rule game. Oh, sorry,it was Adam Vinatieri.

The tuck rule game? Oh, you mean the playoff game where Brady threw for 300+ yards in a blizzard. That game? Same game where he completed all 8 of his passes in overtime to set up a chip shot FG for the win? Same game where he converted a 4th and 4 to get into FG range?

And his 2nd SB? That would be the one where he threw for 350+ yards and 3 TD's correct? Oh, but Vinatieri made 1 FG in that game so yep, he won it.

Maybe had Manning not had Vanderchoke as his FG kicker it would be Peyton at 3-5 for the SB.

Sorry, but I prefer facts to hypotheticals. Vinatieri certainly contributed to those Pats teams (as did many others), but Brady doesn't have the best postseason record in NFL history or been to 5 SB's because he had a good Kicker.

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 07:14 AM
In his 5 SB appearances, Brady is.....

128/197 (65.0%)
1,277 yards
9 TD
2 INT

But yea, it was all Vinatieri.

Could you split those numbers out, compare the three games the Patriots won to the two the Patriots didn't?

infantrycak
04-14-2014, 07:20 AM
Could you split those numbers out, compare the three games the Patriots won to the two the Patriots didn't?

Not going to do all of the numbers but in the 3 wins he had 6 TDs and 1 INT so in the 2 losses it must have been 3 TDs and 1 INT. As he mentioned Brady had 354 yds in the win over Carolina so that means an average of 230 in the other 4 appearances.

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 07:38 AM
Not going to do all of the numbers but in the 3 wins he had 6 TDs and 1 INT so in the 2 losses it must have been 3 TDs and 1 INT. As he mentioned Brady had 354 yds in the win over Carolina so that means an average of 230 in the other 4 appearances.

Yeah, I saw his follow up posts... & it looked pretty good in Brady's favor.

santo
04-14-2014, 10:10 AM
I don't know if I believe that. There's a big difference in going to New England, where they expected to go into the play offs & contend for a Championship & coming to an expansion team where we were learning how to win two games in a row.

I thought David looked good his first two years, two & half. Somewhere along the way, he got tired of being the only one who cared about winning (I'm sure he thought that was what was going on). We weren't expecting to be in the play offs for at least 3 of his first four years in the league. It's kind of hard to believe you're headed in the right direction seeing what he was seeing every day.

On the other hand, if he went to New England, where he was the 4th QB, where he was selected with the 199th pick.... Tom Brady was fighting for a roster spot from day one. That changes how you approach things.

The thing that I liked about Brady was the fact that he took advantage of his opportunity there in New England when Bledsoe went out. Which frustrated me with Yates, because he had 2 years in the system and to me didn't really seem to separate himself too much from Keenum, much less Schaub.
You can blame that on the coaches, but like BB said, Brady was way more prepared than they were because he was determined to be the best player on the field everyday.

TEXANRED
04-14-2014, 11:38 AM
Could you split those numbers out, compare the three games the Patriots won to the two the Patriots didn't?

Tuck rule game, last minute field goal by Vinateri:

2001 AFC divisional playoff game
Oakland Raiders New England Patriots

(106) (115)
13 16
Head coach:
Jon Gruden Head coach:
Bill Belichick
1 2 3 4 OT Total
OAK 0 7 6 0 0 13
NE 0 0 3 10 3 16
Date January 19, 2002
Stadium Foxboro Stadium
Location Foxborough, Massachusetts
Referee Walt Coleman
Attendance 60,292
Network CBS
Announcers Greg Gumbel and Phil Simms

2001 Superbowl

Box score[edit]
1 2 3 4 Total
Rams 3 0 0 14 17
Patriots 0 14 3 3 20
at Louisiana Superdome, New Orleans, Louisiana
Date: February 3, 2002
Game time: 5:40 p.m. CST
Game weather: Played indoors, domed stadium

1st Quarter
STL FG: Jeff Wilkins 50 yards 30 STL 3:10. Drive: 10 plays,48 yards in 5:05
2nd Quarter
NE TD: Ty Law 47-yard interception return (Adam Vinatieri kick) 73 NE 8:49
NE TD: David Patten 8-yard pass from Tom Brady (Adam Vinatieri kick) 143 NE 0:31. Drive: 5 plays, 40 yards in 0:49
3rd Quarter
NE FG: Adam Vinatieri 37 yards 173 NE 1:18. Drive: 5 plays, 14 yards in 2:07
4th Quarter
STL TD: Kurt Warner 2-yard run (Jeff Wilkins kick) 1710 NE 9:31. Drive:12 plays, 77 yards in 6:47
STL TD: Ricky Proehl 26-yard pass from Kurt Warner (Jeff Wilkins kick) 1717 tie 1:30 Drive: 3 plays, 55 yards in 0:21
NE FG: Adam Vinatieri 48 yards 2017 NE 0:00 Drive: 9 plays, 53 yards in 1:30

Box score[edit]
1 2 3 4 Total
Panthers 0 10 0 19 29
Patriots 0 14 0 18 32
at Reliant Stadium, Houston, Texas
Date: February 1, 2004
Game time: 5:25 p.m. CST
Game weather: Played with roof closed, retractable roof stadium

2004 Superbowl

Second Quarter
NE TD: Deion Branch 5-yard pass from Tom Brady (Adam Vinatieri kick) 70 NE 3:05. Drive: 4 plays, 20 yards in 2:10
CAR TD: Steve Smith 39-yard pass from Jake Delhomme (John Kasay kick) 77 tie 1:07. Drive: 8 plays, 95 yards in 1:58
NE TD: David Givens 5-yard pass from Tom Brady (Adam Vinatieri kick) 147 NE 0:18. Drive: 6 plays, 78 yards in 0:49
CAR FG: John Kasay 50 yards 1410 NE 0:00. Drive: 2 plays, 21 yards in 0:18
Fourth Quarter
NE TD: Antowain Smith 2-yard run (Adam Vinatieri kick) 2110 NE 14:49. Drive: 8 plays, 71 yards in 4:08
CAR TD: DeShaun Foster 33-yard run (2-pt conv: pass failed) 2116 NE 12:39. Drive: 6 plays, 81 yards in 2:10
CAR TD: Muhsin Muhammad 85-yard pass from Jake Delhomme (2-pt conv: pass failed) 2221 CAR 6:53 Drive: 3 plays, 90 yards in 0:45
NE TD: Mike Vrabel 1-yard pass from Tom Brady (2-pt conv: Kevin Faulk run) 2922 NE2:51. Drive: 11 plays, 68 yards in 4:02
CAR TD: Ricky Proehl 12-yard pass from Jake Delhomme (John Kasay kick) 2929 tie 1:08. Drive: 7 plays, 80 yards in 1:43
NE FG: Adam Vinatieri 41 yards 3229 NE 00:04 Drive: 6 plays, 37 yards in 1:04

Box score[edit]
1 2 3 4 Total
Patriots 0 7 7 10 24
Eagles 0 7 7 7 21
at ALLTEL Stadium, Jacksonville, Florida
Date: February 6, 2005
Game time: 6:38 p.m. EST
Game weather: 59 F (15 C), clear

2005 Superbowl

PHI TD: L.J. Smith 6-yard pass from Donovan McNabb (David Akers kick) 70 PHI
NE TD: David Givens 4-yard pass from Tom Brady (Adam Vinatieri kick) 77 tie
NE TD: Mike Vrabel 2-yard pass from Tom Brady (Adam Vinatieri kick) 147 NE
PHI TD: Brian Westbrook 10-yard pass from Donovan McNabb (David Akers kick) 1414 tie
NE TD: Corey Dillon 2-yard run (Adam Vinatieri kick) 2114 NE
NE FG: Adam Vinatieri 22 yards 2414 NE
PHI TD: Greg Lewis 30-yard pass from Donovan McNabb (David Akers kick) 2421 NE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_Rule_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVI
https://www.google.com/#q=2004+super+bowl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXIX#Box_score

Could you imagine if Brady had a drunk Vanderchoke instead of AV?

WolverineFan
04-14-2014, 12:09 PM
Could you imagine if Brady had a drunk Vanderchoke instead of AV?


You do realize that in both SB's that you keep mentioning that the game was tied when Vinatieri hit his game winners? Even if he misses those kicks, the games go to overtime, where Brady had a 7-0 record in OT at that point in his career and had completed 87.5% of his passes for 332 yards (10.4 ypa) in those OT's.

You really have no argument here. You can give credit to Vinatieri for hitting clutch kicks (which he did) but to absolve Brady of any credit for NE's success during that run is just ridiculous. How did NE get in position for Vinatieri to hit those last second FG's? Did Brady not drive them down the field to set up those final kicks?

ObsiWan
04-14-2014, 12:20 PM
Don't quote numbers at me. Did you watch his first two superbowls? Who won the tuck rule game. Oh, sorry,it was Adam Vinatieri.

Maybe had Manning not had Vanderchoke as his FG kicker it would be Peyton at 3-5 for the SB.
Who drove the team down the field to get Vinatieri in position to attempt those field goals? Was Vinatieri under center during those drives? How many passes did he complete? Or maybe Vinatieri was the running back... how many yards did he gain again? And how could Manning conceivably be 3 for 5 when he's only been to three

Sorry but Vinatieri doesn't even have a chance to become the "hero" is Brady goes 3-and-out on those 4th qtr drives.

But we've spun this thread way off from it's intended purpose. And in my mind, that is to illustrate that measurables aren't close to the whole story. You cannot put a tape on a guy's desire or heart or willingness to perfect his craft.