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powda
04-12-2014, 12:55 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165857#post165857

I sometimes enjoy reading through ancient threads to get a feel for where we were as fans. Revisiting threads also means accountability as posters. Who was right or wrong? This specific thread (linked) has particular nostalgic value for me as it and a handful of pm's are the origin of the pink soap fight club avatars which become so popular here when posters want somebody fired. The innovators of that avatar concept as I see it are kaiser and herv and that is where it began.

In holding true to the spirit of that thread I have to wonder outloud about something more recent. O'Brien and his lack of an offensive coordinator. Is it foolhardy for a first time nfl coach to enter the biggest season of his professional career without an offensive coordinator? Doesn't it display what kind of pull he has at Kirby?

Consider:

If the Texans offense is successful and the juggernaut we want it to be, OB will be the undisputed architect of the offense and reap all the rewards. Acclaim will be solely his for engineering the system.

However, if things go south and the offense is dismal what's the recourse? How would you react? I wager a fair percentage of fans will argue on OB's behalf claiming head coaching duties and offensive coordinator responsibilities are just to much for one man. AND THAT'S THE GAMBIT.

Has O'Brien already installed a security blanket and bought himself an extra season by not having an offensive coordinator this year?

thunderkyss
04-12-2014, 01:30 PM
I think we get too hung up on who's called what and what not. OB is the head coach, but the defense is RAC's baby. Obrien will build his offense.

Same way it was with Kubiak, except Crennel knows what he's doing. No question about that. The question is whether O'Brien can handle his business.

But we didn't have an offensive coordinator in 2006. It was Kubiak & Shanahan was more of an intern. I don't think he was actually an "offensive coordinator" until 2008.

I wouldn't worry about it, it'll play out the way it'll play out.

infantrycak
04-12-2014, 01:32 PM
Same way it was with Kubiak, except Crennel knows what he's doing. No question about that. The question is whether O'Brien can handle his business.

But we didn't have an offensive coordinator in 2006. It was Kubiak & Shanahan was more of an intern. I don't think he was actually an "offensive coordinator" until 2008.

I wouldn't worry about it, it'll play out the way it'll play out.

Same way in that Kubiak called the plays primarily but:

2006 - Troy Calhoun OC
2007 - Mike Sherman OC
2008 - Kyle Shanahan OC

badboy
04-12-2014, 03:43 PM
While I would prefer a OC, I don't think OB is building a safety net for job protection. He will not be fired if he goes 0-16. I think he just did not see the need.

powda
04-12-2014, 04:04 PM
While I would prefer a OC, I don't think OB is building a safety net for job protection. He will not be fired if he goes 0-16. I think he just did not see the need.

Perhaps. My post is not an argument for or against anything. Merely an observation I wanted feedback on. It's just as likely a competent offensive coordinator OB favored is not available or maybe OB is so controlling he refuses to seek aide in that department. The end result appears to be a safety net for OB while Ricky Smith is hauled off to a shooting squad in the event of a catastrophic season.

steelbtexan
04-12-2014, 04:19 PM
Perhaps. My post is not an argument for or against anything. Merely an observation I wanted feedback on. It's just as likely a competent offensive coordinator OB favored is not available or maybe OB is so controlling he refuses to seek aide in that department. The end result appears to be a safety net for OB while Ricky Smith is hauled off to a shooting squad in the event of a catastrophic season.

I apparently takes 8 yrs to be fired after a medicore at best tenure. Appartently it will take longer than that to fire a medicore at best GM.

So I wouldn't worry about BOB being fired any time soon.

powda
04-12-2014, 04:52 PM
I apparently takes 8 yrs to be fired after a medicore at best tenure. Appartently it will take longer than that to fire a medicore at best GM.

So I wouldn't worry about BOB being fired any time soon.

I agree. It appears BOB is in no immediate danger but it seems gm's have a longer leash here then hc s. The oc on BOB's team would resemble a sham as it did with Kubiak's tenure because we all know who's running the show...but there is no formal scapegoat...hence the luxury of some leeway. I just find it convenient and think some here will use it as an excuse to overlook a poor offense.

Playoffs
04-12-2014, 05:22 PM
...Has O'Brien already installed a security blanket and bought himself an extra season by not having an offensive coordinator this year?

Unlike the Browns or the Buccaneers or the Redskins the Texans ownership does not buy into a 2/3 or even 1 year coaching cycle, so secret security blankets aren't needed.

But I'm sure someone somewhere is already decorating their soap bars and typing up their All encompassing fire him threads. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

ObsiWan
04-12-2014, 06:26 PM
I apparently takes 8 yrs to be fired after a medicore at best tenure. Appartently it will take longer than that to fire a medicore at best GM.

So I wouldn't worry about BOB being fired any time soon.
You've heard the owner say he still believes we have enough of a core of good players that he thinks (or says he thinks) that we should contend for the playoffs. If that is so, then he thinks the GM did HIS job by supplying a solid roster. Now we may not agree with Uncle Bob's assessment of the roster but he (Uncle Bob) thinks what he thinks. Having been provided with a solid core of players, the previous coaches failed to get the best out of them and are, as expected, gone. When Uncle Bob finally perceives our roster is substandard, then the GM is no longer doing his job and will be replaced. But not until Uncle Bob is unhappy with our roster.

The Pencil Neck
04-12-2014, 06:29 PM
You've heard the owner say he still believes we have enough of a core of good players that he thinks (or says he thinks) that we should contend for the playoffs. If that is so, then he thinks the GM did HIS job by supplying a solid roster. Now we may not agree with Uncle Bob's assessment of the roster but he (Uncle Bob) thinks what he thinks. Having been provided with a solid core of players, the previous coaches failed to get the best out of them and are, as expected, gone. When Uncle Bob finally perceives our roster is substandard, then the GM is no longer doing his job and will be replaced. But not until Uncle Bob is unhappy with our roster.

AND by hiring a new coach that has to install new schemes, the GM is going to have to ditch some players and get some other players for these new schemes. So there's a possibility he's got a couple of years grace, as well... although I'm still not totally convinced he won't be shown the door after the draft like Casserly was.

thunderkyss
04-12-2014, 06:44 PM
...then he thinks the GM did HIS job by supplying a solid roster. Now we may not agree with Uncle Bob's assessment of the roster but he (Uncle Bob) thinks what he thinks. Having been provided with a solid core of players...

I understand people not liking the guys we have on our team, but like you said, McNair believes we've got a good group of guys..... & all our players keep getting snatched up by other teams... so there are other folks out there who like the players Rick Smith picks.

ObsiWan
04-12-2014, 08:06 PM
AND by hiring a new coach that has to install new schemes, the GM is going to have to ditch some players and get some other players for these new schemes. So there's a possibility he's got a couple of years grace, as well... although I'm still not totally convinced he won't be shown the door after the draft like Casserly was.
I may be alone in this, but I think our GM is a glorified delivery service. The coaches specify what "ingredients" they need to "cook the meal" and Smith and his scouts do what they can to get the types of players the coaches have identified. And if he can wheel & deal and get those guys and snag extra picks in the process, so much the better.

I don't think Smith actually makes any of the picks on his own. I think the coaching staff sets the big board, not Smith. I think Smith has input but not the final vote. I'm pretty sure Kubiak had the final call when he was here and I'll bet O'Brien will too. Only Uncle Bob can override an O'Brien selection. If we end up with Manziel, I'd bet good money that it was McNair's call.

DocBar
04-12-2014, 08:49 PM
I may be alone in this, but I think our GM is a glorified delivery service. The coaches specify what "ingredients" they need to "cook the meal" and Smith and his scouts do what they can to get the types of players the coaches have identified. And if he can wheel & deal and get those guys and snag extra picks in the process, so much the better.

I don't think Smith actually makes any of the picks on his own. I think the coaching staff sets the big board, not Smith. I think Smith has input but not the final vote. I'm pretty sure Kubiak had the final call when he was here and I'll bet O'Brien will too. Only Uncle Bob can override an O'Brien selection. If we end up with Manziel, I'd bet good money that it was McNair's call.I would really love to know the truth with this. What are the main reasons you think Smith is just a flunky for the coaches?

I saw Draft Day today, so yeah.....:overreact:

infantrycak
04-12-2014, 10:01 PM
I agree. It appears BOB is in no immediate danger but it seems gm's have a longer leash here then hc s.

So out of a set of two examples one to the contrary and one not (maybe) you have come to this general rule? That's like flipping a quarter twice, getting heads the first time, tails the second and concluding this quarter seems to like tails.

ObsiWan
04-12-2014, 10:04 PM
I would really love to know the truth with this. What are the main reasons you think Smith is just a flunky for the coaches?

I saw Draft Day today, so yeah.....:overreact:
I wouldn't use the term "flunky". Just that he's not one of those GMs who gets players as he sees fit and tells the coaches to "shut up and make do with what I brung ya."
I see him as more of a "tell us what you guys need and we'll go find them" kind of GM. "Us" being the scouting staff and his GM staff.

infantrycak
04-12-2014, 10:15 PM
Seems like folks are viewing GMs as at two extreme ends of a scale with 1 being the HC says go get that guy regardless of the cost and a 10 being a GM who picks who he wants when and tells the HC here's your team.

I imagine most teams are much more in the middle with the HC targeting players they want and the GM having everyone value ranked such that the HC gets to pick from the menu of available "value" players. If the player is out of the ballpark on value either high or low a discussion ensues on moving. Who has final say varies but doesn't mean the whole rest of the process was pro forma, yes man stuff for the other.

DocBar
04-12-2014, 10:39 PM
Seems like folks are viewing GMs as at two extreme ends of a scale with 1 being the HC says go get that guy regardless of the cost and a 10 being a GM who picks who he wants when and tells the HC here's your team.

I imagine most teams are much more in the middle with the HC targeting players they want and the GM having everyone value ranked such that the HC gets to pick from the menu of available "value" players. If the player is out of the ballpark on value either high or low a discussion ensues on moving. Who has final say varies but doesn't mean the whole rest of the process was pro forma, yes man stuff for the other.This is how I envision it working for the vast majority of teams with maybe 5 or 6 teams that are at either extreme end.

dc_txtech
04-12-2014, 10:40 PM
I may be alone in this, but I think our GM is a glorified delivery service. The coaches specify what "ingredients" they need to "cook the meal" and Smith and his scouts do what they can to get the types of players the coaches have identified. And if he can wheel & deal and get those guys and snag extra picks in the process, so much the better.

I don't think Smith actually makes any of the picks on his own. I think the coaching staff sets the big board, not Smith. I think Smith has input but not the final vote. I'm pretty sure Kubiak had the final call when he was here and I'll bet O'Brien will too. Only Uncle Bob can override an O'Brien selection. If we end up with Manziel, I'd bet good money that it was McNair's call.

I think the answer is that nobody really knows. I feel like Smith gets credit for all the bad picks and from what I've gathered on the boards the overall mindset seems to be Mario was a Kubiak pick, Okoye was a Smith pick, Duane Brown was a Gibbs pick, not sure who gets credit for Cushing, Kareem Jackson was a Smith pick, Watt was a Phillips pick, and so forth.

I think every pick is a mixture of opinions coming to the best compromise. I know two brothers that are both huge Bills fans and share a fantasy football team in a big money league, both super knowledgeable about the game. I asked them how they make decisions in the draft and they said that they typically agree on most things but if someone felt very strongly about a player they would cede to the strong feeling and draft that player.

This is my best guess as to the drafting style of the Texans. With that being said I don't think that Smith would still have his job if he was pro Akoye and anti Watt for example. If he wasn't right more than he was wrong I don't think Mcnair would be keeping him around. Nobody knows what goes on behind the scenes but Kubiak is gone, Phillips is gone, and Smith is still here. With these being the only facts I have to work with, I have to say that Smith was probably a lot more involved with the good picks than he gets credit for.

DocBar
04-12-2014, 10:40 PM
I wouldn't use the term "flunky". Just that he's not one of those GMs who gets players as he sees fit and tells the coaches to "shut up and make do with what I brung ya."
I see him as more of a "tell us what you guys need and we'll go find them" kind of GM. "Us" being the scouting staff and his GM staff.Aha! Did I mention that I saw Draft Day today? LOL

powda
04-12-2014, 11:00 PM
So out of a set of two examples one to the contrary and one not (maybe) you have come to this general rule? That's like flipping a quarter twice, getting heads the first time, tails the second and concluding this quarter seems to like tails.

I see 2 coaches fired and only 1 gm let go. The sample size is limited no doubt...the term "rule" is stronger then my intention. But Ricky is here is he not? Should I assume the gm here has less authority based on these results? I wont assume the HC has anything to do with our cap issues and still Kevlar Rick remains.

Your analogy is off. A coin is 50/50. So far the texans ledger reads:

Minus 2 hc's
Minus 1 gm

What conclusions should I conjure based on that?

steelbtexan
04-12-2014, 11:43 PM
I think the answer is that nobody really knows. I feel like Smith gets credit for all the bad picks and from what I've gathered on the boards the overall mindset seems to be Mario was a Kubiak pick, Okoye was a Smith pick, Duane Brown was a Gibbs pick, not sure who gets credit for Cushing, Kareem Jackson was a Smith pick, Watt was a Phillips pick, and so forth.

I think every pick is a mixture of opinions coming to the best compromise. I know two brothers that are both huge Bills fans and share a fantasy football team in a big money league, both super knowledgeable about the game. I asked them how they make decisions in the draft and they said that they typically agree on most things but if someone felt very strongly about a player they would cede to the strong feeling and draft that player.

This is my best guess as to the drafting style of the Texans. With that being said I don't think that Smith would still have his job if he was pro Akoye and anti Watt for example. If he wasn't right more than he was wrong I don't think Mcnair would be keeping him around. Nobody knows what goes on behind the scenes but Kubiak is gone, Phillips is gone, and Smith is still here. With these being the only facts I have to work with, I have to say that Smith was probably a lot more involved with the good picks than he gets credit for.

What we also know is Rick Smith is the GM of a 2-14 football team that has cap issues. There's no telling what Smith really does. (Other than kiss Call McNair's butt) Something else we know is when push comes to shove Smith will throw any and everybody under the bus to save his own skin. (Kubiak/Gardner) These type of people rarely succeed because they are always worried about saving their jobs, rather than just doing their jobs to the best of their ability.

What we also know is McNair paid a lot of $$$$ to get BOB plus 6 mil buying out BOB's contract. Smith had 1 more yr left on his deal and I doubt the McNairs wanted to pay off Smith too. This is the main reason Rick Smith still has a job with the Texans. IMHO That and the fact that Rick has somehow become part of the McNair inner circle of trust. I don't know how this happened, but you can bet Rick has made the McNair's a lot of $$$$ over the yrs.

ObsiWan
04-13-2014, 12:07 AM
Aha! Did I mention that I saw Draft Day today? LOLWas it any good?

DocBar
04-13-2014, 12:36 AM
Was it any good?It wasn't bad. I found it predictable, but it was still entertaining. Kevin Costner hasn't made too many bad movies.

Lurvinator11
04-13-2014, 12:40 AM
It wasn't bad. I found it predictable, but it was still entertaining. Kevin Costner hasn't made too many bad movies.

But when he does, they are the worst of all time!

powda
04-13-2014, 12:58 AM
But when he does, they are the worst of all time!

You know the thread you started sucks when it devolves into posts about Kevin Costner with gills or delivering mail. Those movies did blow profusely by the way.

infantrycak
04-13-2014, 01:01 AM
I see 2 coaches fired and only 1 gm let go. The sample size is limited no doubt...the term "rule" is stronger then my intention. But Ricky is here is he not? Should I assume the gm here has less authority based on these results? I wont assume the HC has anything to do with our cap issues and still Kevlar Rick remains.

Your analogy is off. A coin is 50/50. So far the texans ledger reads:

Minus 2 hc's
Minus 1 gm

What conclusions should I conjure based on that?

First off, this time last time a HC was fired we still had the same GM and then he was canned, hence the maybe in my prior post.

But no, the analogy is not off. So far for the Texans when a HC is fired it is a 50/50 proposition for whether the GM is also fired. My conclusion off that is there is no rule and either result could be repeated in the future.

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 01:05 AM
Was it any good?

If you're a draftnik it was great.

I cant imagine Rick Smith being the Kevin Costner character.

powda
04-13-2014, 01:08 AM
First off, this time last time a HC was fired we still had the same GM and then he was canned, hence the maybe in my prior post.

But no, the analogy is not off. So far for the Texans when a HC is fired it is a 50/50 proposition for whether the GM is also fired. My conclusion off that is there is no rule and either result could be repeated in the future.

Could it all be happenstance? No doubt. But if I had to lay odds history favors the gm here. "Rule" was not a word I ever choose to use...I said "it appears" and I don't think there's anything flawed about that.

Grams
04-13-2014, 07:20 AM
I see 2 coaches fired and only 1 gm let go. The sample size is limited no doubt...the term "rule" is stronger then my intention. But Ricky is here is he not? Should I assume the gm here has less authority based on these results? I wont assume the HC has anything to do with our cap issues and still Kevlar Rick remains.

Your analogy is off. A coin is 50/50. So far the texans ledger reads:

Minus 2 hc's
Minus 1 gm

What conclusions should I conjure based on that?

The previous GM was fired after the draft. Draft had not happened yet.

We maybe minus 2 gm's after the draft.

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 08:50 AM
Seems like folks are viewing GMs as at two extreme ends of a scale with 1 being the HC says go get that guy regardless of the cost and a 10 being a GM who picks who he wants when and tells the HC here's your team.

I imagine most teams are much more in the middle with the HC targeting players they want and the GM having everyone value ranked such that the HC gets to pick from the menu of available "value" players. If the player is out of the ballpark on value either high or low a discussion ensues on moving. Who has final say varies but doesn't mean the whole rest of the process was pro forma, yes man stuff for the other.

I think the HC says, "This is the type of player I want. Good looking, well dressed, average to tall height, long arms, thick neck, etc..." & the GM goes out & finds all the guys available who might fit the bill, puts him on a list, then says, "Here's a list of guys who fit the bill. We're going to go see them here & here, I've got interviews scheduled with them here & here, tell me which ones you like & we'll schedule workouts with them."

After the interviews, the HC says, "I like #1, #8, & #9... I can win with those three."

The GM does this with all the player they make a big board, they develop a plan & the GM acts out that plan.

Pretty much like you said.

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 08:57 AM
What we also know is Rick Smith is the GM of a 2-14 football team that has cap issues.

Has any player we let go in the last two years not find a spot with another team? Ed Reed wasn't unemployed a whole week before finding another job. LeStar Jean got picked up by another team. Sam Montgomery got picked up twice...

I think most here believe (whether they admit it or not) that we were close to winning a Super Bowl at one time, that we were among the more talented & balanced team at one time. That that didn't translate into more wins, is not the fault of the GM.

That's like if I bought the finest, most choice hops & barrells & Kilns & ovens & you make sht beer with it all.... you can't blame me. Doesn't matter how far in debt we are. I got you the ingredients & the equipment to make a product that should have us making money hand over fist.

Now... if he were the type of GM that also hired/fired the coach, then yes, he's just as culpable as the coach (or cook in my analogy) but we all know he is not.

Texan4Ever
04-13-2014, 11:02 AM
We should have cleaned house completely since we let go of our HC (but for whatever reason we didn't). In any case I want quality wins as much as the next guy but I also want stability in the organization.

I don't want the Texans to end up like the Jaguars, Raiders, or God forbid the Browns. Regardless of what happens this upcoming season I want to see consistency. If we start off 0-4 that sucks but I want us to see changes. Running game isn't working, fine...we go into a RBBC situation and focus more on the passing game. I don't want to see the same offense/defense/STs out there on the field.

As the saying goes, "Expecting a different outcome when you do the same thing over and over again...is the definition of insanity."

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 11:23 AM
Has any player we let go in the last two years not find a spot with another team? Ed Reed wasn't unemployed a whole week before finding another job. LeStar Jean got picked up by another team. Sam Montgomery got picked up twice...

I think most here believe (whether they admit it or not) that we were close to winning a Super Bowl at one time, that we were among the more talented & balanced team at one time. That that didn't translate into more wins, is not the fault of the GM.

That's like if I bought the finest, most choice hops & barrells & Kilns & ovens & you make sht beer with it all.... you can't blame me. Doesn't matter how far in debt we are. I got you the ingredients & the equipment to make a product that should have us making money hand over fist.

Now... if he were the type of GM that also hired/fired the coach, then yes, he's just as culpable as the coach (or cook in my analogy) but we all know he is not.

Did you watch the New England playoff game?

The Texans were miles away from being a true SB contender. They were fools gold. Many people saw this. Do you think BB feared playing the Texans?

The Texans had a nice little lettermans jacket kinda team. We still don't know what Smith's job is, Other than kissing Cal's butt.

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 12:45 PM
Did you watch the New England playoff game?

The Texans were miles away from being a true SB contender. They were fools gold. Many people saw this. Do you think BB feared playing the Texans?



I'm talking about the year before, when Schaub got hurt. If it were him in the play offs & not Yates, I think we're in the Super Bowl & probably win it. That's the team I'm talking about that was close.

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 12:47 PM
I'm talking about the year before, when Schaub got hurt. If it were him in the play offs & not Yates, I think we're in the Super Bowl & probably win it. That's the team I'm talking about that was close.

Very debatable and we will never know.

What if Schaub continued his trend of shrinking on the biggest stages?

drs23
04-13-2014, 01:40 PM
Did you watch the New England playoff game?

The Texans were miles away from being a true SB contender. They were fools gold. Many people saw this. Do you think BB feared playing the Texans?

The Texans had a nice little lettermans jacket kinda team. We still don't know what Smith's job is, Other than kissing Cal's butt.

So steelb, what was Slik, Teflon, Slippery, Greasy, STP (sorry, out of metaphors ;^) doing at all the pro days, the combine, the Bowl Games and private work outs if not doing his own due diligence on all the prospects that the team has/may have interest in? Just there to kiss Cal's hindy because he may have/may have not been there?

I'm going into this draft and all leading up to it with an empty cup. If RS fails miserably and sets the team back then I'll agree with you. To this point I just can't muster the hate and vitriol that you've been expressing...well, as long as I can remember.

OTOH, if he puts a couple out of the park, a couple of doubles and a triple will he get any of the credit from you or will it have had to be "someone else" simply because it's Rick Smith therefore he couldn't have had anything to do with a positive outcome?

Just axin'.

sandman
04-13-2014, 01:57 PM
OTOH, if he puts a couple out of the park, a couple of doubles and a triple will he get any of the credit from you or will it have had to be "someone else" simply because it's Rick Smith therefore he couldn't have had anything to do with a positive outcome?

Just axin'.

One does not let go of that much hate so easily. I'm thinking turning into a modern day Jeebus and healing a few lepers *might change his mind about ol' Rick...

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 03:47 PM
So steelb, what was Slik, Teflon, Slippery, Greasy, STP (sorry, out of metaphors ;^) doing at all the pro days, the combine, the Bowl Games and private work outs if not doing his own due diligence on all the prospects that the team has/may have interest in? Just there to kiss Cal's hindy because he may have/may have not been there?

I'm going into this draft and all leading up to it with an empty cup. If RS fails miserably and sets the team back then I'll agree with you. To this point I just can't muster the hate and vitriol that you've been expressing...well, as long as I can remember.

OTOH, if he puts a couple out of the park, a couple of doubles and a triple will he get any of the credit from you or will it have had to be "someone else" simply because it's Rick Smith therefore he couldn't have had anything to do with a positive outcome?

Just axin'.

No hate, I don't get where you think I hate the man. I don't, I just think he's not very good at his job and have 7 yrs of evidence to back my opinion up.

I wouldn't invite Rick to dinner because he is the kind of guy that will turn on friend or foe alike to save his own skin. (See Kubiak/Gardner) I try to stay as far away from those type of people as I can. But it doesn't mean I hate the guy. As far as vitriol goes what have I said in this paragraph that isn't true?

If I'm wrong, which I want to see over a 2-3 yr period I will admit I'm wrong, just like I've done on many other topics before. You know I do this and I cant believe you don't I think will live up to this. The upcoming draft will tell a lot of the tale on how I feel about Rick Smith and the future of the Houston Texans. If he does well this team could become a Pats/Steelers/Packers type org. If he doesnt' We (the fans) are looking at a Browns/Jags/Lions type org. IMHO

This is the most important draft in team history. Luckily it's an extremely deep draft. So there should be no excuses for Rick Smith.

drs23
04-13-2014, 04:17 PM
No hate, I don't get where you think I hate the man. I don't, I just think he's not very good at his job and have 7 yrs of evidence to back my opinion up.

I wouldn't invite Rick to dinner because he is the kind of guy that will turn on friend or foe alike to save his own skin. (See Kubiak/Gardner) I try to stay as far away from those type of people as I can. But it doesn't mean I hate the guy. As far as vitriol goes what have I said in this paragraph that isn't true?

If I'm wrong, which I want to see over a 2-3 yr period I will admit I'm wrong, just like I've done on many other topics before. You know I do this and I cant believe you don't I think will live up to this. The upcoming draft will tell a lot of the tale on how I feel about Rick Smith and the future of the Houston Texans. If he does well this team could become a Pats/Steelers/Packers type org. If he doesnt' We (the fans) are looking at a Browns/Jags/Lions type org. IMHO

This is the most important draft in team history. Luckily it's an extremely deep draft. So there should be no excuses for Rick Smith.

OK on the "no hate". I know you perhaps didn't come right out and say it, it just seemed like it to me. Just my take I guess. Not trying to put words in your mouth.

RE Kubiak and Gardener I don't know who can prove or disprove that being "thrown under the bus" came from RS, Cal McNair, the Head Cheeze himself or even that stinkin' janitor that keeps popping off. :D

As far as the remainder of your post, Fair Enough. I think we can both agree that this needs to be a strong draft. The players are there. I want to be optimistic but not to the Kool-Aid degree. I want the team to be successful as much as yourself or anyone else. I think our biggest disconnect is the fact that you think RS is almost solely responsible for this mess and I think the main culprit is now the OC in Baltimore with another one that holds the owner Title (Ed Reed) but neither of us have the documentation nor the inside the building scoop to prove it beyond doubt so that doubt will forever linger.

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 04:24 PM
OK on the "no hate". I know you perhaps didn't come right out and say it, it just seemed like it to me. Just my take I guess. Not trying to put words in your mouth.

RE Kubiak and Gardener I don't know who can prove or disprove that being "thrown under the bus" came from RS, Cal McNair, the Head Cheeze himself or even that stinkin' janitor that keeps popping off. :D

As far as the remainder of your post, Fair Enough. I think we can both agree that this needs to be a strong draft. The players are there. I want to be optimistic but not to the Kool-Aid degree. I want the team to be successful as much as yourself or anyone else. I think our biggest disconnect is the fact that you think RS is almost solely responsible for this mess and I think the main culprit is now the OC in Baltimore with another one that holds the owner Title (Ed Reed) but neither of us have the documentation nor the inside the building scoop to prove it beyond doubt so that doubt will forever linger.

McNair/Rick/Gary deserve 33% a piece.

Since McNair owns the team you cant get rid of 33%. Keeping Rick around means 66% of 2-14 is still around. That kinda tempers hope for the future. Or atleast it should.

Screw it, it's 100% McNair's fault, he hired these losers. LOL

JB
04-13-2014, 05:32 PM
This is the most important draft in team history. Luckily it's an extremely deep draft. So there should be no excuses for Rick Smith.

Having a strong draft ain't enough. We had that in 2006. Started a new regime even. Didn't get us far enough, hopefully this one will get us where everyone wants to see the Texans get.

thunderkyss
04-13-2014, 06:48 PM
Having a strong draft ain't enough. We had that in 2006. Started a new regime even. Didn't get us far enough, hopefully this one will get us where everyone wants to see the Texans get.

We're in a totally different place than we were in 2006. Now we've got guys who've had a taste for winning. No one (that I can think of) is here just to collect a check, which I think there were some "veterans" who had that mind set back then.

We've still got a core of guys that can be a strong foundation for this club.

DocBar
04-13-2014, 07:47 PM
But when he does, they are the worst of all time!So you've seen Waterworld and The Postman, I see. lol

steelbtexan
04-13-2014, 08:40 PM
Having a strong draft ain't enough. We had that in 2006. Started a new regime even. Didn't get us far enough, hopefully this one will get us where everyone wants to see the Texans get.

What is enough?

DocBar
04-13-2014, 08:49 PM
What is enough?Multiple SB victories?
:kitten:

Double Barrel
04-14-2014, 01:16 PM
You've heard the owner say he still believes we have enough of a core of good players that he thinks (or says he thinks) that we should contend for the playoffs. If that is so, then he thinks the GM did HIS job by supplying a solid roster. Now we may not agree with Uncle Bob's assessment of the roster but he (Uncle Bob) thinks what he thinks. Having been provided with a solid core of players, the previous coaches failed to get the best out of them and are, as expected, gone. When Uncle Bob finally perceives our roster is substandard, then the GM is no longer doing his job and will be replaced. But not until Uncle Bob is unhappy with our roster.

I have learned over the years to take many of Mr. McNair's "optimism speeches" with a grain of salt. I have tremendous respect for the man, but if we're honest about it, he's the Houston Texans no. 1 cheerleader. I think he's always going to spin it in the most optimistic perspective to fans, and I personally do not have a problem with it. I'd rather that than an owner openly criticizing players or coaches. All that does is serve to undermine an organization and most likely make future hiring prospects pause to work for such an owner.

And realistically, Mr. McNair is a businessman who serves as the top salesman for his product. He understands the game of public perception, so there serves no purpose to tell fans that we are looking at a longer term rebuild. And besides, one year turnarounds are certainly possible in today's NFL, so it could happen here with the foundation of great players on the roster.

I think the answer is that nobody really knows. I feel like Smith gets credit for all the bad picks and from what I've gathered on the boards the overall mindset seems to be Mario was a Kubiak pick, Okoye was a Smith pick, Duane Brown was a Gibbs pick, not sure who gets credit for Cushing, Kareem Jackson was a Smith pick, Watt was a Phillips pick, and so forth.

I think every pick is a mixture of opinions coming to the best compromise. I know two brothers that are both huge Bills fans and share a fantasy football team in a big money league, both super knowledgeable about the game. I asked them how they make decisions in the draft and they said that they typically agree on most things but if someone felt very strongly about a player they would cede to the strong feeling and draft that player.

This is my best guess as to the drafting style of the Texans. With that being said I don't think that Smith would still have his job if he was pro Akoye and anti Watt for example. If he wasn't right more than he was wrong I don't think Mcnair would be keeping him around. Nobody knows what goes on behind the scenes but Kubiak is gone, Phillips is gone, and Smith is still here. With these being the only facts I have to work with, I have to say that Smith was probably a lot more involved with the good picks than he gets credit for.

Great post and very objective about the power structure on Kirby. None of us really have insight into how the Texans make decisions, and it seems hard opinions are being based on assumptions and speculation built on nothing but little nuggets of second-hand information.

I wouldn't invite Rick to dinner because he is the kind of guy that will turn on friend or foe alike to save his own skin. (See Kubiak/Gardner) I try to stay as far away from those type of people as I can. But it doesn't mean I hate the guy. As far as vitriol goes what have I said in this paragraph that isn't true?


Wow. The fact that you would not have dinner with a professional NFL general manager - much less the GM of the team you follow - because of your baseless assumptions about his character are telling.

What actual facts do you have that supports the character assassination that you write here? Because Kubiak and staff are fired but Smith is still here? Is that all?

I'm not trying to attack your opinions, but have asked for hard evidence of the power structure for years. Nobody seems to really know the answers.

steelbtexan
04-14-2014, 06:39 PM
I have learned over the years to take many of Mr. McNair's "optimism speeches" with a grain of salt. I have tremendous respect for the man, but if we're honest about it, he's the Houston Texans no. 1 cheerleader. I think he's always going to spin it in the most optimistic perspective to fans, and I personally do not have a problem with it. I'd rather that than an owner openly criticizing players or coaches. All that does is serve to undermine an organization and most likely make future hiring prospects pause to work for such an owner.

And realistically, Mr. McNair is a businessman who serves as the top salesman for his product. He understands the game of public perception, so there serves no purpose to tell fans that we are looking at a longer term rebuild. And besides, one year turnarounds are certainly possible in today's NFL, so it could happen here with the foundation of great players on the roster.



Great post and very objective about the power structure on Kirby. None of us really have insight into how the Texans make decisions, and it seems hard opinions are being based on assumptions and speculation built on nothing but little nuggets of second-hand information.



Wow. The fact that you would not have dinner with a professional NFL general manager - much less the GM of the team you follow - because of your baseless assumptions about his character are telling.

What actual facts do you have that supports the character assassination that you write here? Because Kubiak and staff are fired but Smith is still here? Is that all?

I'm not trying to attack your opinions, but have asked for hard evidence of the power structure for years. Nobody seems to really know the answers.

I think you are correct about McNair being a businessman 1st and foremost. Which is one of the main reasons Smith is still employed by the Texans. That and the Cal is the godfather of Rick's child. (More evidence of Smith knowing how to play the game.)

I don't worship sports figures. I do judge them. I judged the job Rick Smith has done based off of what one of our posters (You know who I'm talking about) in the know told us about the Texans orgs power structure and the fact that if true Smith should've been shown the door as well. However the way Smith's contract was structured and the way Smith worked the back channels, (Blaming Wade for not rotating players more, nevermind the roster was practically devoid of talented depth, suddenly becoming a huge Keenum fan etc...) to save his job. That and the fact Smith has made the McNair's a lot of $$$$ over the yrs. (See Dunta) The McNair's are very loyal to $$$$ and thus Smith regardless of whether or not he's competent at his job.

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 08:42 PM
I think you are correct about McNair being a businessman 1st and foremost.

On the one hand, we've got fans saying McNair is screwing up this organization because he's trying to run it like he's building a family when he should be running it like a business.

On the other, we've got fans saying McNair is screwing up this franchise because he's a businessman 1st & foremost.

In twelve years he built a franchise that was a favorite to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl. Failed miserably, but many (if not most) looked at Bob's McNair team before the 2013 season & said, "That's the most balanced team in the NFL, I'd be shocked if they are not in the Super Bowl."

Yeah, Carolina got to the Super Bowl & were a field goal away from winning it... & the Jags were a well respected team at one time... a lock for the play-offs.

We failed to win a Super Bowl. Only have 2 play off wins in our history. Only three winning seasons. But relatively speaking, Bob's taken this franchise from utter failure (the first regime) to relevance (& back again) in a short time.

He decided it was best to go forward with a new head coach & at least for now the same GM. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right. Who knows?

But seriously, people acting like they would have done a better job, or can do a better job is getting old. If we could build a football team better than Bob McNair, we wouldn't be working for someone else. We wouldn't be working our 9-5s. We wouldn't be sitting in the Grid Iron, or the Bull Pen... we'd be able to tell Bob face to face what's what, not anonymously on a message board.

I'm not saying we have to agree with everything McNair does... but this holier than though tone is just too much.

beerlover
04-14-2014, 09:01 PM
McNair has had a lot of Luck in his life but no Luck (Andrew) w/Texans. I've flipped between these top 3 QB's more times than I care to admit, still no favorite in the clubhouse (thoroughbred race horse). Casserly/Capers failed him, then Kubiak, regrettably in every instance all fine gentlemen but no idea how or who to develop at QB to led this franchise into the playoffs. Really like Teddy but seems to have small/frail bone structure, Johnny brings the circus & Blake Bortles is a year or two away. Leaning towards Bortles, if McNair has any patience left which has gotten him seemingly nowhere after 13 years.

DocBar
04-14-2014, 09:01 PM
I think you are correct about McNair being a businessman 1st and foremost. Which is one of the main reasons Smith is still employed by the Texans. That and the Cal is the godfather of Rick's child. (More evidence of Smith knowing how to play the game.)

I don't worship sports figures. I do judge them. I judged the job Rick Smith has done based off of what one of our posters (You know who I'm talking about) in the know told us about the Texans orgs power structure and the fact that if true Smith should've been shown the door as well. However the way Smith's contract was structured and the way Smith worked the back channels, (Blaming Wade for not rotating players more, nevermind the roster was practically devoid of talented depth, suddenly becoming a huge Keenum fan etc...) to save his job. That and the fact Smith has made the McNair's a lot of $$$$ over the yrs. (See Dunta) The McNair's are very loyal to $$$$ and thus Smith regardless of whether or not he's competent at his job.
You're still basing your opinion off of another opinion of someone who may or may not be in "the know".

I have no doubt, whatsoever, that Smith knows how to play the game. That's just good business sense on his part. Everyone plays it at one level or another.

ObsiWan
04-15-2014, 04:09 AM
On the one hand, we've got fans saying McNair is screwing up this organization because he's trying to run it like he's building a family when he should be running it like a business.

On the other, we've got fans saying McNair is screwing up this franchise because he's a businessman 1st & foremost.

In twelve years he built a franchise that was a favorite to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl. Failed miserably, but many (if not most) looked at Bob's McNair team before the 2013 season & said, "That's the most balanced team in the NFL, I'd be shocked if they are not in the Super Bowl."

Yeah, Carolina got to the Super Bowl & were a field goal away from winning it... & the Jags were a well respected team at one time... a lock for the play-offs.

We failed to win a Super Bowl. Only have 2 play off wins in our history. Only three winning seasons. But relatively speaking, Bob's taken this franchise from utter failure (the first regime) to relevance (& back again) in a short time.

He decided it was best to go forward with a new head coach & at least for now the same GM. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right. Who knows?

But seriously, people acting like they would have done a better job, or can do a better job is getting old. If we could build a football team better than Bob McNair, we wouldn't be working for someone else. We wouldn't be working our 9-5s. We wouldn't be sitting in the Grid Iron, or the Bull Pen... we'd be able to tell Bob face to face what's what, not anonymously on a message board.

I'm not saying we have to agree with everything McNair does... but this holier than though tone is just too much.
Repped.