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JB
04-05-2014, 07:31 PM
We've hashed over our favorite players ad nauseum. I don't want to turn this into another qb thread, let's agree that is the most important position and put it aside for now. Keeping in mind that O'Brien has stated he values intelligent, versatile and hard working individuals, who it the one player that embodies that the most for the Texans? We know where the major holes are and know we need depth everywhere, but which ONE player can help this team the most?

markn
04-05-2014, 07:39 PM
QB talk in 3, 2, 1...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk

infantrycak
04-05-2014, 07:41 PM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

markn
04-05-2014, 07:51 PM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

I think that's a decent call actually.

JB
04-05-2014, 08:07 PM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

I think it has to be either ILB or NT.

beerlover
04-05-2014, 08:16 PM
currently Texans do not have a starting caliber NT, DE (opposite Watt), ILB (next to Cushing) RT have no freaking clue but willing to roll out with Fitzpatrick & develop a QB if taken later in the draft. that about sums it up. so highest order is probably DE to replace Antonio Smith who fits into Crennel system http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/videos/NFL-Network-Can-Clowney-be-like-McGinest/dedbe835-83eb-44cf-bdc0-80c5aae06c0f having said all that my one player is Aaron Donald! Difference between the two is Donald kicks inside while Clowney would kick outside.

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 08:18 PM
OT... if we grab a guy like Greg Robinson, not only does he fill a major hole at RT, but he's excellent depth in the event Duane Brown suffers another turf toe (or worse) injury.

Fixing that one spot will help our QB perform better, our RB perform better & allow our WRs more time to get open.

We'll be able to pick up 3rd & short on the ground, as well as having the option to throw the ball. Same for 4th & 1 and in the red zone.

We'll be able to stay on the field longer, improve our scoring efficiency, which will help our defense stay fresh & pressure the opposing team to score.

JB
04-05-2014, 08:37 PM
OT... if we grab a guy like Greg Robinson, not only does he fill a major hole at RT, but he's excellent depth in the event Duane Brown suffers another turf toe (or worse) injury.

Fixing that one spot will help our QB perform better, our RB perform better & allow our WRs more time to get open.

We'll be able to pick up 3rd & short on the ground, as well as having the option to throw the ball. Same for 4th & 1 and in the red zone.

We'll be able to stay on the field longer, improve our scoring efficiency, which will help our defense stay fresh & pressure the opposing team to score.

I don't quite see the OT making the biggest impact without counting on injury to Brown, and I'm not willing to make that assumption

PapaL
04-05-2014, 08:40 PM
Someone that can pressure the QB; OLB.

JB
04-05-2014, 08:51 PM
Someone that can pressure the QB; OLB.

I can see that, tho not sure that is the biggest impact if we can't plug the middle

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 08:53 PM
We've hashed over our favorite players ad nauseum. I don't want to turn this into another qb thread, let's agree that is the most important position and put it aside for now. Keeping in mind that O'Brien has stated he values intelligent, versatile and hard working individuals, who it the one player that embodies that the most for the Texans? We know where the major holes are and know we need depth everywhere, but which ONE player can help this team the most?

O'Brien is different from most coaches?

Most coaches like stupid/one dimensional/lazy players?

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 08:55 PM
I can see that, tho not sure that is the biggest impact if we can't plug the middle

Agreed,

That's what the Powe signing and I'm sure that Smith will pick another NT in rds 4-6.

JB
04-05-2014, 08:55 PM
O'Brien is different from most coaches?

Most coaches like stupid/one dimensional/lazy players?

Ok, point made. Thanks for your contribution

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 08:59 PM
I don't quite see the OT making the biggest impact without counting on injury to Brown, and I'm not willing to make that assumption

If Robinson was the pick at 1-1, most of those red zone/3rd&1 woes would be solved by running behind the huge violent right side of the OL. Brooks/Robinson would be devastating.

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 09:05 PM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

If the Texans can find their QB of the future/OL and fix the front 7 on defense including ILB then they will have had a successful draft.

It's going to take hitting on 5 picks. But if Rick Smith and the scouts do their jobs, the talent is there in this draft to fill those holes. NO EXCUSES

JB
04-05-2014, 09:05 PM
If Robinson was the pick at 1-1, most of those red zone/3rd&1 woes would be solved by running behind the huge violent right side of the OL. Brooks/Robinson would be devastating.


Is that more important than being able to stop the other team? Didn't we go that route in 2010 when we had a good scoring offense but couldn't stop anyone?

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 09:11 PM
Is that more important than being able to stop the other team? Didn't we go that route in 2010 when we had a good scoring offense but couldn't stop anyone?

Agreed

I think the best way to go is to pick the best player at 1-1. I go back and forth between Clowney/Robinson. For me it's a question of Clowney at 1-1 and JuWaun James type OT in rd 3/4.

Or Robinson at 1-1 and Marcus Smith/Trevor Reilly in the 3rd.

JB
04-05-2014, 09:18 PM
Agreed

I think the best way to go is to pick the best player at 1-1. I go back and forth between Clowney/Robinson. For me it's a question of Clowney at 1-1 and JuWaun James type OT in rd 3/4.

Or Robinson at 1-1 and Marcus Smith/Trevor Reilly in the 3rd.


Do you think that Clowney makes a bigger impact than Mack? Or an OT makes a bigger impact than NT?

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 10:09 PM
Do you think that Clowney makes a bigger impact than Mack? Or an OT makes a bigger impact than NT?

Clowney makes a bigger impact than Mack. Although I wouldn't mind a trade down and picking Mack.

OT makes a bigger impact than NT. Beau Allen went in the 6th rd in the TT Mock draft. You could probably get him in the 5th rd and rotate Powe/Allen and have a stout defense up front if you added Clowney or Mack.

You can find an upgrade at RT in the 3rd rd. (James,Bitonio,etc....)

IDEXAN
04-05-2014, 10:51 PM
We've hashed over our favorite players ad nauseum. I don't want to turn this into another qb thread, let's agree that is the most important position and put it aside for now. Keeping in mind that O'Brien has stated he values intelligent, versatile and hard working individuals, who it the one player that embodies that the most for the Texans? We know where the major holes are and know we need depth everywhere, but which ONE player can help this team the most?
That's two separate questions, right ?

The Pencil Neck
04-05-2014, 11:07 PM
We've hashed over our favorite players ad nauseum. I don't want to turn this into another qb thread, let's agree that is the most important position and put it aside for now. Keeping in mind that O'Brien has stated he values intelligent, versatile and hard working individuals, who it the one player that embodies that the most for the Texans? We know where the major holes are and know we need depth everywhere, but which ONE player can help this team the most?

For me, the current player that is intelligent, versatile, and hard-working is JJ Watt. I think Cushing comes in a close second.

When it comes to the ONE player that can help us most... well... that depends on how they turn out. Nobody really knows beforehand. An interesting thing to do is to go over to the Pro Football Reference site and then go to the Draft section and select a year. There's a column there called CarAV which is the Average Value for that player over the course of their career. This is based on a metric that the site has to show how successful players have been.

If you go to a draft, you can sort on that CarAV (or DrAV which is the AV the team that drafted them received.) And it gives a rough way to see where the real value in those drafts were (although you might disagree here and there.) It never lines up with the order people were actually drafted. Although the first round has a tendency to rise to the top, there are a lot of later round guys that show up at the top of that sort. It's rare for the guy taken at 1-1 to be the most productive player of his draft class although it does happen from time to time.

When we drafted J.J. Watt, he wasn't even for a position where we had a perceived need and he's turned out to be one of the best draft picks we've ever made. So, yeah, Clowney could make a HUGE difference, Mack could make a HUGE difference, Robinson could make a HUGE difference. If Bridgewater/Bortles/Manziel/Carr/Mettenberger/McCarron/Garoppolo/... turns into a great, franchise QB then whichever one of those guys we end up with would make the BIGGEST difference... assuming they picked up the game quick enough to be a difference maker this season.

The QB is the most important position. But filling that with a bad player -- even if we draft him high -- won't make a big difference.

Playoffs
04-05-2014, 11:08 PM
So the question is which ONE...intelligent, versatile and hard working player can help this team the most?

Sounds like 'Who should we take at 1-1', no?

JB
04-05-2014, 11:15 PM
That's two separate questions, right ?

One question

JB
04-05-2014, 11:17 PM
For me, the current player that is intelligent, versatile, and hard-working is JJ Watt. I think Cushing comes in a close second.

When it comes to the ONE player that can help us most... well... that depends on how they turn out.


Ok, if everyone turns out like they are projected to

JB
04-05-2014, 11:20 PM
So the question is which ONE...intelligent, versatile and hard working player can help this team the most?

Sounds like 'Who should we take at 1-1', no?

Yeah, I guess it does but I meant it to be irrespective of draft position. I don't want to think about value at 1:1 per say. I'm just trying to figure what will help this team the most.

That probably doesn't make sense, but it does in my head

The Pencil Neck
04-05-2014, 11:46 PM
Ok, if everyone turns out like they are projected to

Well... That's the problem. Everyone is projecting all sorts of different people different ways. There's not one set projection.

The QB is the most important spot.

The QB with the highest upside AND highest floor, imo, is Bortles. He's big and he's strong and he's reasonably intelligent. If he maximizes his potential, I think he'll have the best and longest career of any of the QBs in this draft. BUT. I have doubts about him doing that so I'm not pushing for him at 1-1.

The two guys I would prefer are actually Garoppolo, who you can probably get at 2-1 or 3-1, or Stephen Morris, who you might be able to get as an UDFA.

Garoppolo is slightly smaller than perfect (6'2", 226#) but he's got quick feet and good vision as a passer. His release point is lower than I'd like but he does a great job of getting the ball where it needs to be. He's good in the pocket.

Stephen Morris, otoh, has a good arm and he's a pretty good athlete. As a QB, he's been inconsistent although he has been playing through injuries. He's had issues with blitz recognition. But he could be a lot better than a lot of people think.

leebigeztx
04-06-2014, 01:12 AM
Jmo, no one will make a bigger impact than a competent starting qb. The difference between the bengals and the browns is andy dalton. As up and down as dalton is or can be,he's light better than what cleveland has. If andy dalton or ryan tannehill were qb of the browns, they probably win that division.

Many say its futile,but there isn't a team in the nfl with a top 15 qb who is willing to give the texans him for jj watt. Don't believe me,try it yourself. Good qb play trumps any position and has the biggest impact on any team.

infantrycak
04-06-2014, 02:16 AM
Jmo, no one will make a bigger impact than a competent starting qb. The difference between the bengals and the browns is andy dalton. As up and down as dalton is or can be,he's light better than what cleveland has. If andy dalton or ryan tannehill were qb of the browns, they probably win that division.

Overlook this?

I don't want to turn this into another qb thread, let's agree that is the most important position and put it aside for now.

Many say its futile,but there isn't a team in the nfl with a top 15 qb who is willing to give the texans him for jj watt. Don't believe me,try it yourself.

Are you going to lend us your crystal ball to try it?

disaacks3
04-06-2014, 02:39 AM
Team needs are simply VAST at this point.

Given (QB), we have:

ILB, NT, RT, DE, CB, RG, RB2, TE, LG....and then everything else.

thunderkyss
04-06-2014, 10:15 AM
Jmo, no one will make a bigger impact than a competent starting qb. The difference between the bengals and the browns is andy dalton. As up and down as dalton is or can be,he's light better than what cleveland has. If andy dalton or ryan tannehill were qb of the browns, they probably win that division.


Never mind the fact that the Bengals have stuck through the mediocrity of Marvin Lewis & may be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, where the Browns have been taking one step forward & two steps back, all the while the light at the end of that tunnel getting smaller & smaller.



Team needs are simply VAST at this point.

Given (QB), we have:

ILB, NT, RT, DE, CB, RG, RB2, TE, LG....and then everything else.

Can anyone remember back to this time last year? I'm pretty sure we were saying the same thing, but thinking we were favorites to get to the Super Bowl.

JB
04-06-2014, 10:27 AM
Team needs are simply VAST at this point.

Given (QB), we have:

ILB, NT, RT, DE, CB, RG, RB2, TE, LG....and then everything else.


Agreed. My point is that I think that either Nix or Mosley would make the biggest single impact on this team, tho the value is not there to take them at 1.1

I'm trying to find out if others think there is anyone that could make a bigger impact than one of those two if all played up to the consensus prediction of their production

Corrosion
04-06-2014, 10:30 AM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

Nope , I'm with you , outside of a stud at QB that and possibly a solid NT would have the biggest impact on this team.

I've said multiple times I think Mosley is the "Best Football Player" in this draft. Thing is , with the way teams value each position , I cant see him being taken 1:1. He'll likely fall into the 20's and some playoff team will get a 10 year anchor to their defense.

Number19
04-06-2014, 11:27 AM
IMO, it is impossible to say "which ONE player can help this team the most". Logically, let's say that we agree that Clowney, or Robinson, or Mack - if they play up to his potential - can help the team the most. But then, we don't draft that player. This holds true for any player, projected to any round.

However...we pretty much agree that there are more holes on defense than there are on offense. And it's most likely we are going to draft several players to help address these holes. We don't know which players or in which rounds, but Crennel is going to get help in the draft, which combined with the players already on the roster, will allow him to hopefully put together an effective defense. Maybe even a more than good defense.

The POSITION which is going to help the team the most is RT. Whether this player is Robinson in the first or James in the third or a player already on the roster, improved play at this position will impact the team the most. Whoever is our starting QB, he will need better protection and more time than was provided last year. We have talent at the skill positions but we need effective QB play to score the points to back up our defensive play.

IMO, a strong defense will result in a successful season, but only if our offense does its part. And this all starts with our RT.

IDEXAN
04-06-2014, 11:41 AM
Well... That's the problem. Everyone is projecting all sorts of different people different ways. There's not one set projection.

The QB is the most important spot.

The QB with the highest upside AND highest floor, imo, is Bortles. He's big and he's strong and he's reasonably intelligent. If he maximizes his potential, I think he'll have the best and longest career of any of the QBs in this draft. BUT. I have doubts about him doing that so I'm not pushing for him at 1-1.

The two guys I would prefer are actually Garoppolo, who you can probably get at 2-1 or 3-1, or Stephen Morris, who you might be able to get as an UDFA.

Garoppolo is slightly smaller than perfect (6'2", 226#) but he's got quick feet and good vision as a passer. His release point is lower than I'd like but he does a great job of getting the ball where it needs to be. He's good in the pocket.

Stephen Morris, otoh, has a good arm and he's a pretty good athlete. As a QB, he's been inconsistent although he has been playing through injuries. He's had issues with blitz recognition. But he could be a lot better than a lot of people think.
Are you really comfortable with his accuracy ? I watched his bowl game followed the just concluded 2013 season, and his accuracy was very inconsistent. I dunno, maybe that game was an anomaly for Bortles ?

kingtexan
04-06-2014, 12:14 PM
The player that will have the biggest impact will be whoever we take at 1.1

That player will be expected to step in and make a big impact and hopefully will do so. If that player doesn't, it will have just as big of an impact.

Player that makes the biggest impact will be 1.1

thunderkyss
04-06-2014, 12:37 PM
The player that will have the biggest impact will be whoever we take at 1.1

That player will be expected to step in and make a big impact and hopefully will do so. If that player doesn't, it will have just as big of an impact.

Player that makes the biggest impact will be 1.1

In 2006, Demeco Ryans had more of an impact on our team than our #1 overall selection. I don't think (& I could be way off) Mario's "lack" of production as a rookie set us back very much at all.

Playoffs
04-06-2014, 12:42 PM
Agreed. My point is that I think that either Nix or Mosley would make the biggest single impact on this team, tho the value is not there to take them at 1.1

I'm trying to find out if others think there is anyone that could make a bigger impact than one of those two if all played up to the consensus prediction of their productionI can't divorce value from players/prospects. Would the Texans be better with NaVorro Bowman? Yep. Calvin Johnson? Yep. Luck? Yep. But they beg the question, What's it gonna cost me?

As for Nix or Mosley... give me Nix to keep Mosley clean and Mosley might win DROY. But I'd rather spend my "money" on a "cheaper" ILB like Jordan Zumwalt or Preston Brown, who I can acquire for "pennies on the Mosley dollar" and get 80%-90% of Mosley's production... or even more.

And what if I can "afford" an edge pass rusher if I "save" on Nix by spending less on an Ego Ferguson or Daquan Jones??? Now we have multiple variables to consider.

I can't separate value from player acquisition. I have to think within the same box in which teams must operate.

If I'm Bill Gates and I walk into a grocery store I'll just buy everything in there. But I've got $100 to feed my family for a week -- that's the NFL... it's a complex dance.

infantrycak
04-06-2014, 01:13 PM
I can't separate value from player acquisition. I have to think within the same box in which teams must operate.

Can't v. won't.

Must v. should.

They are different.

Playoffs
04-06-2014, 01:51 PM
Can't v. won't.Can't think of it in a vacuum anymore. Every decision begs the question of what it costs and what it impacts. That's how my mind works in/around the draft.

Must v. should.Must. They're allotted a set number draft picks each year and a limited amount of dollars within which they must apportion their resources in a manner that maximizes wins. I don't think you can get around those rules, or any of the myriad other pre-draft limitations placed on teams and/or new coaches like OB...?

infantrycak
04-06-2014, 02:14 PM
Can't think of it in a vacuum anymore. Every decision begs the question of what it costs and what it impacts. That's how my mind works in/around the draft.

Must. They're allotted a set number draft picks each year and a limited amount of dollars within which they must apportion their resources in a manner that maximizes wins. I don't think you can get around those rules, or any of the myriad other pre-draft limitations placed on teams and/or new coaches like OB...?

The numbers on their jerseys aren't their draft slot. On the field how they impact the team doesn't involve where they were drafted. It isn't dependent on what other people were drafted and where, etc. beyond the most general "it is a team sport" observation. Denver drafting Derek Carr in the 1st will predictably have zero impact on the Broncos. If they do it and take Jaylen Watkins to start at CB whether it be in the 2nd or 3rd round it's easy to say he will have a bigger impact on the Broncos. The question isn't about the impact of a draft class. It is about the impact of one player.

The Pencil Neck
04-06-2014, 02:30 PM
Are you really comfortable with his accuracy ? I watched his bowl game followed the just concluded 2013 season, and his accuracy was very inconsistent. I dunno, maybe that game was an anomaly for Bortles ?

Like I have said, I have doubts about him. I wouldn't draft him at 1-1.

Goldensilence
04-06-2014, 02:35 PM
Biggest impact? I'd have to consider what having another legit ILB can do for this defense.

powda
04-06-2014, 03:48 PM
Biggest impact? I'd have to consider what having another legit ILB can do for this defense.

I do like cj and consider him the best football player in this draft (not the best athlete) , but I have to wonder why we'd draft a first round ilb to be on the field only 30-40% of the time. Not to mention I believe reed shifting inside is a very real possibility. I think moving reed inside improves our interior run defense and putting someone else - anyone else at sam HAS to improve the pass rush we werent getting.

Mark me down for clowney. Forcing the offense to account for 2 elite athletes (and hopefully elite pass rushers) on any given play sounds intriguing. The possibility of shifting jj and clowney to any number of positions on any given play has to have rac salivating. Take the initiative and keep opposing offenses on their heels.

I guess I read the op's question and wonder "when do you want this impact?" If your willing to wait a few seasons, maybe its one of the qb's. If your looking for an immediate impact your choice is clowney or Robinson imo.

Goldensilence
04-06-2014, 05:06 PM
I do like cj and consider him the best football player in this draft (not the best athlete) , but I have to wonder why we'd draft a first round ilb to be on the field only 30-40% of the time. Not to mention I believe reed shifting inside is a very real possibility. I think moving reed inside improves our interior run defense and putting someone else - anyone else at sam HAS to improve the pass rush we werent getting.

Mark me down for clowney. Forcing the offense to account for 2 elite athletes (and hopefully elite pass rushers) on any given play sounds intriguing. The possibility of shifting jj and clowney to any number of positions on any given play has to have rac salivating. Take the initiative and keep opposing offenses on their heels.

I guess I read the op's question and wonder "when do you want this impact?" If your willing to wait a few seasons, maybe its one of the qb's. If your looking for an immediate impact your choice is clowney or Robinson imo.

I made the choice without the looming thought that the Texans are slotted #1 overall. I think ILB next to Cushing would make a big impact because of having two guys who can go sideline to sideline at that spot is going to make the defense much more flexible.

Until I see it confirmed by Crennel, I think Reed's spot isn't set at ILB. Sides does he really fit sliding in or a move to try and plug a hole at the cost of a better fit?

leebigeztx
04-06-2014, 06:27 PM
I think nt. The nt sets the whole defense from the lbs to the dline. If the get the right guy at nt, it changes everything. The steelers defense has been in decline since casey became avg. When he was that dude squeezing the middle taking up the space, it allowed the olb to rush a shorter corner and the ilbs to scrape and make plays.that means you can contain the run with 7 in the box.. I like allen,ellis,and mccullers in the 5th. Go watch tenn v bama 2012. Womack and crew couldn't move that guy off the line.

Playoffs
04-06-2014, 07:39 PM
...The question isn't about the impact of a draft class. It is about the impact of one player.
The OP question was which ONE...intelligent, versatile and hard working player [not position] can help this team the most?, which sounds to me like who should we select at 1-1.

My response you quoted was to his followup post about Nix and Mosley and value.

I can't project that CJ Mosley will be effective when the position that facilitates his success is occupied by a single player from another team who took a total of 40 defensive snaps in 2013. Will Teddy be able to learn/run the new offense and overcome Derek Newton at RT and ?? at LG and no slot WR (https://twitter.com/DoughertyDrew/status/450767396467257345)? Those are your best positional bets for ROY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Rookie_of_the_Year_Award) -- QB & LB.

_King_
04-06-2014, 08:13 PM
A stud olb. Easily.

Someone that will always be on the field. Stopping the run, rushing the passer, decent in coverage....making plays.

The edge pressure on this team is the worst part of this defense.

I think ilb and nt are important too, but I think they can be filled with good players and you're ok. I think on the edge you want to have at least one stud.

We have 0.

beerlover
04-06-2014, 08:47 PM
A stud olb. Easily.

Someone that will always be on the field. Stopping the run, rushing the passer, decent in coverage....making plays.

The edge pressure on this team is the worst part of this defense.

I think ilb and nt are important too, but I think they can be filled with good players and you're ok. I think on the edge you want to have at least one stud.

We have 0.

I like both Mercilus & Brooks, lets see how Crennel uses them first but yes - add another edge rusher.

Scooter
04-06-2014, 09:06 PM
I suspect I will be alone or close to it on this but ILB.

i'm split between this and offensive tackle. we have such a hole at right tackle that it's near crippling, it absolutely must be addressed strongly. other than that, i agree with ILB being the biggest impact position. the best defenses are strong up the middle. that's where crossing routes disappear, screens die, runs get stuffed, tightends falter, and zones cover larger areas. we however keep trying to address the outside with rushers, ends, and corners. very important duties obviously, but are nothing without the building blocks in the middle to allow the premier positions to do their jobs. in today's game pass rushers can be subbed based on situation, but you need 2 linebackers that can stay on the field.

thunderkyss
04-06-2014, 09:34 PM
I like both Mercilus & Brooks, lets see how Crennel uses them first but yes - add another edge rusher.

I think it will be interesting to see how they work in a more true 3-4 where the down linemen two gap on the tackles & center, & there's more randomness to which line backer is attacking the QB.

But I've seen them in a lot of one on one situations & it doesn't look promising.

Corrosion
04-07-2014, 12:58 AM
I like both Mercilus & Brooks, lets see how Crennel uses them first but yes - add another edge rusher.

If they go with Clowney , he likely plays OLB .... Making it possible to move one of Mercilus / Reed inside , killing two birds with one stone , that is pending one of them has the ability to play inside.


Solving two positions with one draft pick would be making a big impact .... Tho I doubt that impact would be as great as having simply competent QB play.