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mussop
03-31-2014, 12:21 PM
According g to 610 radio manning is gone. Still have doubt this is a rebuilding year?

kiwitexansfan
03-31-2014, 12:25 PM
A quick google shows a lot of new stories coming out with this.

Sources including Schefter.

Bummer, I had high hopes for the Manning signing.

mussop
03-31-2014, 12:28 PM
Any cap gurus out there know what this means towards the salary cap?

Thorn
03-31-2014, 12:29 PM
According g to 610 radio manning is gone. Still have doubt this is a rebuilding year?

New head coach with a new coaching staff = rebuilding. It was settled for me a long time ago. But it's not a point worth arguing about unless you want to argue about Bob McNohair's ridiculous little speeches.

thunderkyss
03-31-2014, 12:30 PM
Any cap gurus out there know what this means towards the salary cap?

We pick up $4.5M (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans)

BullNation4Life
03-31-2014, 12:33 PM
Saw this coming...

Manning is what 32 coming off two leg injuries in 3 years...

Good luck on his future endevours...

Wonder if he is on the phone with Lovie in Tampa right know...

BullNation4Life
03-31-2014, 12:35 PM
New head coach with a new coaching staff = rebuilding. It was settled for me a long time ago. But it's not a point worth arguing about unless you want to argue about Bob McNohair's ridiculous little speeches.


Well don't forget the 06 Saints that completely turned over the roster and went deep into the playoffs.

Now they did have Brees leading but I don't think it will take that long to turn it around..

At least I hope not...

I hope....

Hervoyel
03-31-2014, 12:39 PM
We'll be fine. Manning was a baller but he was hurt an awful lot. When your best guys are always injured you don't have any "best guys". We see that all the time with Cushing and Manning was no Cushing. He was an asset but he wasn't that kind of difference maker.

Makes sense to me that it's time to move on.

mussop
03-31-2014, 12:45 PM
We pick up $4.5M (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans)

Nice chunk of change to add depth.

JB
03-31-2014, 12:45 PM
We'll be fine. Manning was a baller but he was hurt an awful lot. When your best guys are always injured you don't have any "best guys". We see that all the time with Cushing and Manning was no Cushing. He was an asset but he wasn't that kind of difference maker.

Makes sense to me that it's time to move on.

^^^^ This! Looks like we are trying to get younger as well as improve cap space

Mr teX
03-31-2014, 12:45 PM
first time in texans history it seems we're really trying to address the safety position.. 2 new young guys at the position in less than a month and a 2nd round pick from last year will all be competing for time next year...

Porky
03-31-2014, 12:45 PM
Apparently Manning was asked last week to take a pay cut, and he refused thus the Texans released him.

Not much more to say. Good luck. Good but not great player who had some injury issues. I would have liked to have kept him, but I can see why they wanted him to take a cut in pay. Clemons can do a decent job replacing him I think.

I've said all along this is a rebuild. Anyone that thinks otherwise is not living in reality.

Stemp
03-31-2014, 12:46 PM
I thought he agreed to a pay cut to stay on.....

mussop
03-31-2014, 12:47 PM
first time in texans history it seems we're really trying to address the safety position.. 2 new young guys at the position in less than a month and a 2nd round pick from last year will all be competing for time next year...

Two new young players?

Tailgate
03-31-2014, 12:48 PM
We definitely could use a trade back and get as many picks in top 3 rounds as possible.

deucetx
03-31-2014, 12:49 PM
I thought he agreed to a pay cut to stay on.....

Naw, Tania reported that wrong and retracted it. He had never agreed only asked.

TheMatrix31
03-31-2014, 12:55 PM
Not a fan of leaving the safety position to a new acquisition and two young guys but eh, at least we clear some money.

Honoring Earl 34
03-31-2014, 12:57 PM
The way I see it is anybody that gets cut was part of a 2-14 team :cowboy1:

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 01:01 PM
I thought he agreed to a pay cut to stay on.....

With a pay cut, yes. The the pay cut the Texans demanded..........obviously, no.

Mr teX
03-31-2014, 01:03 PM
Two new young players?

Chris clemons = 28 yo, 5 years in the league

kendrick lewis = 25 yo, 3-4 years in the league

Swearinger = 2nd year guy..

mussop
03-31-2014, 01:08 PM
Chris clemons = 28 yo, 5 years in the league

kendrick lewis = 25 yo, 3-4 years in the league

Swearinger = 2nd year guy..

Dam I forgot about Lewis. My heads been stuck in the draft section to long.

thunderkyss
03-31-2014, 01:21 PM
Apparently Manning was asked last week to take a pay cut, and he refused thus the Texans released him.

Not much more to say. Good luck. Good but not great player who had some injury issues. I would have liked to have kept him, but I can see why they wanted him to take a cut in pay. Clemons can do a decent job replacing him I think.

I've said all along this is a rebuild. Anyone that thinks otherwise is not living in reality.

I haven't come to terms with it just yet. In other threads, I suggested we cut OD & DMann to free up cap space, but that was arguing with people saying we needed the money to sign "starters"

I understand their histories, but when they were healthy they both earned their money, I thought. The only reason to cut them, is if you plan on signing difference makers.

We already had enough money to fill out the roster with roll players, vet minimum guys, our draft picks & a few UDFAs... most of the "starters" are already signed by other teams. I can't imagine the Texans are clearing cap space to roll into next season when we gained $17M by trading Schaub, the cap goes up $10M due to the Thursday night contracts, & the new TV deal should give us another bump.

Makes you wonder if something is going on down on Kirby.

ObsiWan
03-31-2014, 01:25 PM
Nice chunk of change to add depth.
unknown "depth" =/= good starter
Not sure this was a good deal.

Are they simply getting rid of all the Wade/Gary guys?

steelbtexan
03-31-2014, 01:26 PM
I haven't come to terms with it just yet. In other threads, I suggested we cut OD & DMann to free up cap space, but that was arguing with people saying we needed the money to sign "starters"

I understand their histories, but when they were healthy they both earned their money, I thought. The only reason to cut them, is if you plan on signing difference makers.

We already had enough money to fill out the roster with roll players, vet minimum guys, our draft picks & a few UDFAs... most of the "starters" are already signed by other teams. I can't imagine the Texans are clearing cap space to roll into next season when we gained $17M by trading Schaub, the cap goes up $10M due to the Thursday night contracts, & the new TV deal should give us another bump.

Makes you wonder if something is going on down on Kirby.

Something as in status quo?

Troy Chapman
03-31-2014, 01:29 PM
Clemons 16 games started last two years. Manning 13 missed games in last 3 years. We got younger at the position, at a third of the price Manning was getting paid.

I am enjoying the hard nose approach the front office is taking.

thunderkyss
03-31-2014, 01:35 PM
Something as in status quo?

Something as in maybe they'll surprise us with a JJ Watt extension this year, or maybe they're negotiating a starting QB contract for a QB on someone's bench.

SAMURAITEXAN
03-31-2014, 01:36 PM
The way Texans operates recently reminds me of how Patriots FO negotiate with their players. The Patriots seems to me pay good money for a key/core quality player only. I think this is the way to go so we won't be tied up with cap situation in the future. Besides, JJ Watt's contract is coming up next season.

PapaL
03-31-2014, 01:44 PM
Dam I forgot about Lewis. My heads been stuck in the draft section to long.

Don't worry, Kendrick Lewis' play was very forgettable last year. As stated in his thread:

Lewis was rated 52nd/85 Safetys overall in 2013 (>25% snaps) by PFF.

That would be ahead of Swearing and Keo and just behind Manning. (And ahead of Quintin Demps, KC) So below average. 2012 he was bottom 10.

Double Barrel
03-31-2014, 01:44 PM
New head coach with a new coaching staff = rebuilding. It was settled for me a long time ago. But it's not a point worth arguing about unless you want to argue about Bob McNohair's ridiculous little speeches.

I never believed it when he said it. No head coach, staff, or starting QB at the time. It was obvious to everyone, but he still needs to rah rah to sell tickets and keep that on-going 12 year sellout streak going. I don't hold it against him, though. It's what he's supposed to do.

_King_
03-31-2014, 01:48 PM
Yes I expect this team to be competitive next year. At least 8 win depending on who they get at QB.

Our division isn't tough. There is still a lot of talent on this team. We have 11 picks in a good draft. We can still shore up some spots in FA and we just got 4.5 mil from Dman being cut.

But again, all depends on QB play.

IDEXAN
03-31-2014, 01:53 PM
What a game that was that Manning had against his x-teammates in Chitown a couple years ago. If he ends up on the roster of a team the Texans will see on their schedule, our guys had better buckle up their chin straps when they show up for that game.

ChampionTexan
03-31-2014, 01:56 PM
Don't worry, Kendrick Lewis' play was very forgettable last year. As stated in his thread:

The following conversation occurred between my brother (Chiefs season ticket holder for over 30 years) and my nephew (who now shares his season tickets) during a recent visit home:

Brother: The Texans just signed the guy who lost the Colts playoff game for us.

Nephew: Good!

Just sayin'

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 02:09 PM
I am concerned because at this time I don't see anyone on the roster that can be considered a starting FS.

CretorFrigg
03-31-2014, 02:11 PM
The way Texans operates recently reminds me of how Patriots FO negotiate with their players. The Patriots seems to me pay good money for a key/core quality player only. I think this is the way to go so we won't be tied up with cap situation in the future. Besides, JJ Watt's contract is coming up next season.

This might be an unpopular opinion but you don't throw all of your money on one player, even if it is JJ. This is a TEAM game, after all. There are 10 other players on the field, each playing an important role.

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 02:15 PM
Something that seems to be overlooked is that the Texans had a way of also calling on Manning when returners on the team would falter.

_King_
03-31-2014, 02:15 PM
Not worried at all. I didn't think much of Manning's play last year and I think Clemons is an upgrade at FS.

I love Swearinger as a SS, but that's based mostly on potential.

I think we can draft a good athlete at safety to provide depth, learn and possibly contribute. But I'm not concerned with this at all.

Currently I'm more worried about the D-line, CB's and OLB's...general pass rush. I think Safety is about the least of the defenses worries.

Hervoyel
03-31-2014, 02:19 PM
Apparently Manning was asked last week to take a pay cut, and he refused thus the Texans released him.

Not much more to say. Good luck. Good but not great player who had some injury issues. I would have liked to have kept him, but I can see why they wanted him to take a cut in pay. Clemons can do a decent job replacing him I think.

I've said all along this is a rebuild. Anyone that thinks otherwise is not living in reality.

I still think it's something different. Call it a "modern rebuild". I think they're trying to rebuild and win at the same time. We've really seen a "build" (2002-2005) and one bare-cupboard "rebuild" (2006-2009) in our time as Texans fans. this is a different kind of rebuild. There are players here. There are players here who have won here. This is an attempt to fix what's broken and start winning in a year, maybe two tops.

That's what I think. Not much to go on yet but the Texans approach so far to free agency has been intelligent, dynamic (for them), and consistent. This is kind of like the year that Manning and Joseph were signed. That year you got a feeling that the Texans were working according to a plan which felt really different from most years. They may have had a plan most years for free agency but it always felt like it was a stupid plan or a very short-sighted plan. Grabbing guys who were over the hill, paying too much for too little (basically the Ed Reed deal is the perfect example of that).

The year we brought in Joseph and Manning you got the feeling that the Texans were doing things the smart way. This year feels like that. Good moves in free agency. Nothing stinking of desperation for a change. Getting something for Schaub was smart. Letting Manning go when they couldn't make a deal to restructure was smart.

Feels like the new era that it is. Makes it easier to enjoy being a fan of the team when you don't feel like they're wandering around blindfolded in a minefield taking directions from the other GM's.

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 02:23 PM
Not worried at all. I didn't think much of Manning's play last year and I think Clemons is an upgrade at FS.

I love Swearinger as a SS, but that's based mostly on potential.

I think we can draft a good athlete at safety to provide depth, learn and possibly contribute. But I'm not concerned with this at all.

Currently I'm more worried about the D-line, CB's and OLB's...general pass rush. I think Safety is about the least of the defenses worries.

Past Texans regimens unfortunately for a long time had that same philosophy. Not having a reliable LAST line of defense isn't a significant concern. OK.:rake:

Mr teX
03-31-2014, 02:42 PM
Not worried at all. I didn't think much of Manning's play last year and I think Clemons is an upgrade at FS.

I love Swearinger as a SS, but that's based mostly on potential.

I think we can draft a good athlete at safety to provide depth, learn and possibly contribute. But I'm not concerned with this at all.

Currently I'm more worried about the D-line, CB's and OLB's...general pass rush. I think Safety is about the least of the defenses worries.

Past Texans regimens unfortunately for a long time had that same philosophy. Not having a reliable LAST line of defense isn't a significant concern. OK.:rake:

signed,

Matt Stevens
Glen Earl
CC Brown
Eugene Wilson
Dominque Barber
Brandon Harrison
Troy Nolan

& now you can add Shilo Keo to this list of futility.

Playoffs
03-31-2014, 02:44 PM
Okay, I'm scrambling around trying to figure out whether it the the Giants or Broncos that released "Manning" and why? http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

I thought he agreed to a pay cut to stay on.....
Waited to publish this, but apparently Manning was asked to take a pay that would have put his contract in the neighborhood of the one Clemons signed...
Tania Ganguli ‏@taniaganguli Mar 28
From what I understand, Clemons got a similar salary to what Manning was offered in the pay cut the #Texans asked him to take.
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Chris Clemons counts $1.15 million against the cap this year.

Chris Clemons two years for 2.7 mil and 450,000 guaranteed.

Would have been a hefty cut, although he'll likely find the market not much higher. What's interesting is...
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Texans saved $4.5 million on cap by waiving Manning, making them more than $13 million under the cap.

Appears we're stockpiling cap room... to target a free agent?... or put it to other use? :hmmm:

:logo:

honored82
03-31-2014, 02:51 PM
They might just be thinking to draft someone who can play both slot CB + Safety in early rounds.

_King_
03-31-2014, 02:54 PM
Past Texans regimens unfortunately for a long time had that same philosophy. Not having a reliable LAST line of defense isn't a significant concern. OK.:rake:


Swearinger was a 2nd round pick that showed some promise. Has some issues. Needs to continue to get better.

Clemons has been a solid starter. Not great. Solid or maybe you could argue slightly below average.

Lewis who has been a starter. Ok depth. Eddie pleasant. Special teams. Ok depth. Shilo....I'm not a fan, but he started some games...Special teams guy..ok depth..

I didn't say we had Earl Thomas and Jairus Byrd back there. Or anyone close. But I do think they are the least of the defenses worries.

At corner you have Kareem who has grown into a solid corner. Joseph who was injured a bunch and got burned quite a bit. No known commodity at nickle corner. No depth there.

At LB you have two 0's at OLB. No second ILB to speak of. Cushing who's coming off another injury. Depth?

At D-line you have Watt...The new NT and two guys who may not even fit the scheme the new D-coordinator wants to run in Crick and Jamison. And Jamison is coming off an injury and Crick has not really done anything noteworthy anyways.

And the Pass rush is Watt.

So yes, the safety position is currently one of the least of my worries on defense. Didn't say they were going to be a great group, but atm I feel better about their prospects next year than I do any other position group or aspect of the defense.

bash
03-31-2014, 03:07 PM
*sigh



Looks like we are trading with Buffalo

Playoffs
03-31-2014, 03:15 PM
Dave Zangaro ‏@DZangaro
"Just being home and bringing my family back home and just to play in your back yard was special." Manning (2/2) #texans

"It was just so surreal. To get back to Texas and play in front of my family..." Manning (1/2) #Texans

"Two grown men agreeing to disagree. It was nothing bad. I think the world of that organization." Manning on his meeting with GM Smith

Just talked to recently-cut Manning. He thanked #Texans for time here. Said he'll keep his home in HOU. Wants to live here after retirement.
Class.

James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Career stats on Danieal Manning: 112 gms, 91 starts. 521 total tackles, 428 solo, 11 ints, 9 FF, 5 fumble recoveries, 2 blocked FGs. #Texans

Danieal Manning's career kick return avg is 26.8 yards per return. 4th highest kickoff return average since entering NFL in 2006. #Texans

HouSportsWriter
03-31-2014, 03:28 PM
called it.

HOU-TEX
03-31-2014, 03:40 PM
Okay, I'm scrambling around trying to figure out whether it the the Giants or Broncos that released "Manning" and why? http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif


Waited to publish this, but apparently Manning was asked to take a pay that would have put his contract in the neighborhood of the one Clemons signed...
Tania Ganguli ‏@taniaganguli Mar 28

John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL


Would have been a hefty cut, although he'll likely find the market not much higher. What's interesting is...
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL


Appears we're stockpiling cap room... to target a free agent?... or put it to other use? :hmmm:

:logo:

Or several? IMO, our front 7 is in shambles. What we currently have on the roster:

DE: Watt, Jamison, Crick And Browner
NT: Powe, lol
ILB: Cushing, Mohamed, Tarpinian
OLB. Mercilus, Reed, Hazel, Sapp, Tuggle, Williams

I might be missing someone, but we need a lot.

_King_
03-31-2014, 03:41 PM
Or several? IMO, our front 7 is in shambles. What we currently have on the roster:

DE: Watt, Jamison, Crick And Browner
NT: Powe, lol
ILB: Cushing, Mohamed, Tarpinian
OLB. Mercilus, Reed, Hazel, Sapp, Tuggle, Williams

I might be missing someone, but we need a lot.

That **** looks terrible.

kiwitexansfan
03-31-2014, 03:46 PM
*sigh



Looks like we are trading with Buffalo

based on?

Jackie Chiles
03-31-2014, 03:51 PM
based on?

Looking at his statement, maybe based on general moodiness? Seriously, connecting this move with some other crazy hypothetical, who knows.

NCTexan
03-31-2014, 03:54 PM
Dave Zangaro ‏@DZangaro

Class.


He always seemed like a great human being. This kinda confirms it. He clearly understands the business aspect of the game to a certain extent as well and can separate work and life.

_King_
03-31-2014, 04:40 PM
He's on 610 right now.

Couldn't come to a common ground.

Was about guarantees.

Has nothing but love for Texans.

Liked OB from the brief time he spent with him.

OB wanted him to stay, but understood that he had to do what he felt was best for him.

Says he's still rehabbing his injury. If season started today would not be able to go. about 6-8 weeks away he feels.

He and Rick have a personal relationship, and it was no hard feeling from either end. They respect each other and realize business is business.

He doesn't seem too thrilled about the timing of this release.

Says he understood that he likely wouldn't see the end of this contract. Guys want the money up front and not back loaded again no hard feelings. Just business.

Will look back at his Texans experience with fondness. Was tremendous. Fans are tremendous. Wishes he could take the fans with him wherever he ends up. Still believes in the organization as a whole. Believes they will do what's best for the team.

Corrosion
03-31-2014, 05:10 PM
I thought he agreed to a pay cut to stay on.....

Naw, Tania reported that wrong and retracted it. He had never agreed only asked.

What I heard was that he was open to a pay cut but that the cut the team wanted was more than he was willing to take.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 05:45 PM
This might be an unpopular opinion but you don't throw all of your money on one player, even if it is JJ. This is a TEAM game, after all. There are 10 other players on the field, each playing an important role.


You must have slept through the year the Colts didn't have Manning. ONE player CAN make a huge difference


Your man... Pots and pans

ObsiWan
03-31-2014, 05:53 PM
You must have slept through the year the Colts didn't have Manning. ONE player CAN make a huge difference


Your man... Pots and pans
No need to leave Reliant. Healthy Schaub got to the point where he was worth 10-12 wins; gimpy (bad foot) Schaub couldn't get us more than two.

leebigeztx
03-31-2014, 05:54 PM
How does manning being cut equate to rebuilding? His age,injuries,and cap # is why he was cut. Manninng is solid,but you can find solid for a lot cheaper than 6m. I like the philosophy of starter,backup,or camp body and of course money adds into it.

Cleamons and DJ are starters,lewis and keo are st and backups. I'm looking at a combo type of guy for the 3 safety look. Keith McGill in the 3rd fits a lot. Not only because he's both,but JJo is older and needs to play better and jackson is a fa after the season.

drs23
03-31-2014, 06:03 PM
How does manning being cut equate to rebuilding? His age,injuries,and cap # is why he was cut. Manninng is solid,but you can find solid for a lot cheaper than 6m. I like the philosophy of starter,backup,or camp body and of course money adds into it.

Cleamons and DJ are starters,lewis and keo are st and backups. I'm looking at a combo type of guy for the 3 safety look. Keith McGill in the 3rd fits a lot. Not only because he's both,but JJo is older and needs to play better and jackson is a fa after the season.

Perhaps. But I'd be much less than surprised to see a deal made on a new contract. I'm leaning new deal.

JRingo
03-31-2014, 06:28 PM
The way Texans operates recently reminds me of how Patriots FO negotiate with their players. The Patriots seems to me pay good money for a key/core quality player only. I think this is the way to go so we won't be tied up with cap situation in the future. Besides, JJ Watt's contract is coming up next season.

Agree with you here. Belichick "South"..

Goldensilence
03-31-2014, 07:01 PM
More cutting contracts that didn't make sense this year. The only contract that is moderately Meh has been Graham's.

I'm with Herv on it feels like there's a plan in place and it's starting with trimming bad contracts. Question will be can this staff actually coach players up and do a better job identifying talent.

Norg
03-31-2014, 07:05 PM
rebuilding mode in full efeect WHOZ NEXT .... J JOE ..???? CRICK LOL how about Chris myers Kevin martin or Andre Johnson ...???? LOL

mussop
03-31-2014, 07:28 PM
rebuilding mode in full efeect WHOZ NEXT .... J JOE ..???? CRICK LOL how about Chris myers Kevin martin or Andre Johnson ...???? LOL

Could be Kevin Martin. OB just said on nfl.com that we had no slot WR. Ouch.

mussop
03-31-2014, 07:30 PM
How does manning being cut equate to rebuilding? His age,injuries,and cap # is why he was cut. Manninng is solid,but you can find solid for a lot cheaper than 6m. I like the philosophy of starter,backup,or camp body and of course money adds into it.

Cleamons and DJ are starters,lewis and keo are st and backups. I'm looking at a combo type of guy for the 3 safety look. Keith McGill in the 3rd fits a lot. Not only because he's both,but JJo is older and needs to play better and jackson is a fa after the season.


OB also said Swearinger will start at SS and FS will be a competition between Lewis and Clemons. And manning getting cut is just part of it. Look at all the starters that are gone. It's a rebuilding like it or not.

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 07:39 PM
It looks like the Texans were not straightforward with their description of Manning's injury. At first they report a stress fracture of the fibula and later reported a significant knee hyperextension injury. Keeing in mind the the injury occurred mid October of last year, with Manning revealing that he had 6-8 still to go on his rehab before making on the field, I've been trying to put things together in my head. All sources, including Rotoworld, have continued to report that Manning was recovering from surgery fibula fracture surgery. An isolated fibula fracture, even a complete one, would require only 6-8 weeks total rehab. Manning previous had that type of injury and actually came back early after 5 weeks. Today, it's ~5 1/2 months since the injury. So either he had a complication from surgery........which the Texans never reported to have occurred or had more extensive injuries.

I found this isolated Tweet I never saw back at the very end of the year.:



‏@HoustonTexans RT @DeepSlant: Manning says he is 3 weeks ahead of schedule in his rehab. Hopes to be ready before OTAs even. #Texans

8:08 AM - 30 Dec 2013


Then I went back and tried to get a still of when the injury occurred.


http://nfldraftdiamonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/20131013-234612.jpg


It appears that with such a long rehab, injuries sustained in addition to the fibula fracture (which was likely the proximal segment that is attached to the lateral collateral ligament) would definitely have to have included surgery...........for a tear of the posterior cruciate ligament (this ligament is the "check" ligament that prevents forward bending of the knee) and most likely for the lateral collateral ligament/fibula fracture segment, and also for the lateral meniscus, possibly the medial meniscus. It would not be unusual for any combination of this injuries included direct knee cartilage damage.


http://crashingpatient.com/wp-content/images/part1/news041403tt.gif



http://medical.cdn.patient.co.uk/images/178.gif


A posterior cruciate tear alone that requires surgery requires a very long recovery. When muscle strength is adequate, light jogging only begins at ~6 months and full return to play is not atypically allowed until 9-12 months after surgery.

This could very well explain why such concern regarding what was originally reported as a "hairline fracture of the fibula."

DocBar
03-31-2014, 07:42 PM
You must have slept through the year the Colts didn't have Manning. ONE player CAN make a huge difference


Your man... Pots and pans

No need to leave Reliant. Healthy Schaub got to the point where he was worth 10-12 wins; gimpy (bad foot) Schaub couldn't get us more than two.And neither of those two guys played DE. QB is that important of a position, not DE.

Obsi, if Schaub got us 2 with a gimpy foot, Watt couldn't get us one additional win. We lost how many games by 1 score? I'm not hating on Watt, by any means. Just pointing out that an elite QB is much more important than an elite DE. The whole defensive unit has to play at an elite level (not be all elite players, mind you) to have an impact like Seattle last year, the Ravens, Bears, Giants( LT era mostly), Steelers and Cowboys.

Heck, look at what Brady has accomplished with no name WR's for most of his career. Think what he could've done with a WR like AJ or Megatron for his whole career.

DocBar
03-31-2014, 07:49 PM
It looks like the Texans were not straightforward with their description of Manning's injury. At first they report a stress fracture of the fibula and later reported a significant knee hyperextension injury. Keeing in mind the the injury occurred mid October of last year, with Manning revealing that he had 6-8 still to go on his rehab before making on the field, I've been trying to put things together in my head. All sources, including Rotoworld, have continued to report that Manning was recovering from surgery fibula fracture surgery. An isolated fibula fracture, even a complete one, would require only 6-8 weeks total rehab. Manning previous had that type of injury and actually came back early after 5 weeks. Today, it's ~5 1/2 months since the injury. So either he had a complication from surgery........which the Texans never reported to have occurred or had more extensive injuries.

I found this isolated Tweet I never saw back at the very end of the year.:





Then I went back and tried to get a still of when the injury occurred.


http://nfldraftdiamonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/20131013-234612.jpg


It appears that with such a long rehab, injuries sustained in addition to the fibula fracture (which was likely the proximal segment that is attached to the lateral collateral ligament) would definitely have to have included surgery...........for a tear of the posterior cruciate ligament (this ligament is the "check" ligament that prevents forward bending of the knee) and most likely for the lateral collateral ligament/fibula fracture segment, and also for the lateral meniscus, possibly the medial meniscus. It would not be unusual for any combination of this injuries included direct knee cartilage damage.


http://crashingpatient.com/wp-content/images/part1/news041403tt.gif



http://medical.cdn.patient.co.uk/images/178.gif


A posterior cruciate tear alone that requires surgery requires a very long recovery. When muscle strength is adequate, light jogging only begins at ~6 months and full return to play is not atypically allowed until 9-12 months after surgery.

This could very well explain why such concern regarding what was originally reported as a "hairline fracture of the fibula."What are your thoughts on Manning finding a new team at his asking price? Reading your post, it sounds like the Texans weren't just being cheapskates. There appear to be legit questions regarding Manning's ability to come in and perform at a level commensurate with his original 2014 salary.

With this information, it looks like RS and OB made a good decision.

HJam72
03-31-2014, 08:06 PM
It bothers me that the most productive offseason worth of moves we've had, not counting draftees, was the J.Jo & Manning signings, and now we are letting one of them go....and it hasn't been that long either.

Having said that, it seems like the right move. Sometimes they gotta make tough calls. :toropalm:

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 08:07 PM
And neither of those two guys played DE. QB is that important of a position, not DE.



Obsi, if Schaub got us 2 with a gimpy foot, Watt couldn't get us one additional win. We lost how many games by 1 score? I'm not hating on Watt, by any means. Just pointing out that an elite QB is much more important than an elite DE. The whole defensive unit has to play at an elite level (not be all elite players, mind you) to have an impact like Seattle last year, the Ravens, Bears, Giants( LT era mostly), Steelers and Cowboys.



Heck, look at what Brady has accomplished with no name WR's for most of his career. Think what he could've done with a WR like AJ or Megatron for his whole career.


What was the defenses average per game pre/post Cushing??


Your man... Pots and pans

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 08:15 PM
What was the defenses average per game pre/post Cushing??


Your man... Pots and pans


Or how about this. Opposing offenses double team Watt a majority of snaps, creating opportunities for other guys on D, now if JJ would miss a game, how many offenses are gonna double team Crick, or Jamison, Hell how many double teamed Antonio


Your man... Pots and pans

DocBar
03-31-2014, 08:16 PM
What was the defenses average per game pre/post Cushing??


Your man... Pots and pans Average what? YPG, PPG? What was their W/L total?
EDIT: 7 games w/ Cushing: 27 PPG. 9 games wo/Cushing: 26 PPG.

LINK (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2013.htm)

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 08:17 PM
Ypg, and ppg.


Your man... Pots and pans

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 08:18 PM
If they gave up more ypg and ppg, post injury, you don't think that could equate to a loss


Your man... Pots and pans

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 08:18 PM
What are your thoughts on Manning finding a new team at his asking price? Reading your post, it sounds like the Texans weren't just being cheapskates. There appear to be legit questions regarding Manning's ability to come in and perform at a level commensurate with his original 2014 salary.

With this information, it looks like RS and OB made a good decision.

I'd certainly feel that this season has potential for being very compromised. After that, it all depends what the exact extent of his injuries are, especially how much cartilage damage he sustained. It will be interesting if the Bear and Manning team up for good ole time...........but, I assure you (short of a couple of moron GMs out there), any offered contracts will be based very heavily of incentives.........and very lightly of guaranteed monies.

TheIronDuke
03-31-2014, 08:21 PM
Why don't you put that pots and pans line in your sig?

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-31-2014, 08:21 PM
Why don't you put that pots and pans line in your sig?


I thought it was. This tap talk has me a little jacked up


Your man... Pots and pans

DocBar
03-31-2014, 08:25 PM
If they gave up more ypg and ppg, post injury, you don't think that could equate to a loss


Your man... Pots and pansYPG is much less important than PPG. Check my post before yours for PPG. You can do YPG if you want to.

DocBar
03-31-2014, 08:27 PM
I'd certainly feel that this season has potential for being very compromised. After that, it all depends what the exact extent of his injuries are, especially how much cartilage damage he sustained. It will be interesting if the Bear and Manning team up for good ole time...........but, I assure you (short of a couple of moron GMs out there), any offered contracts will be based very heavily of incentives.........and very lightly of guaranteed monies.I was thinking more of a Tampa Bay reunion moreso than a Chicago one. Lovie Smith would be more likely to entertain taking a risk on Manning than a coaching staff that has no history with him. Unless I miss a Chicago connection...

DocBar
03-31-2014, 08:31 PM
If they gave up more ypg and ppg, post injury, you don't think that could equate to a loss


Your man... Pots and pansI have yet to see an NFL victory awarded soley based on which team gained the most yards. There have been several SB winners that did poorly in the YPG stats but did well in the PPG stats.
I would bet a sizeable amount of $$ that there are significantly more SB winners that did better in the PPG stat than YPG stat than the opposite. Just my :twocents:

CloakNNNdagger
03-31-2014, 08:56 PM
I was thinking more of a Tampa Bay reunion moreso than a Chicago one. Lovie Smith would be more likely to entertain taking a risk on Manning than a coaching staff that has no history with him. Unless I miss a Chicago connection...

You're right, TB with Smith would be a reasonable match. Just thought that 5 years in Chicago might also make for a home town discount.

Texan in Japan
03-31-2014, 09:33 PM
It looks like the Texans were not straightforward with their description of Manning's injury. At first they report a stress fracture of the fibula and later reported a significant knee hyperextension injury. Keeing in mind the the injury occurred mid October of last year, with Manning revealing that he had 6-8 still to go on his rehab before making on the field, I've been trying to put things together in my head. All sources, including Rotoworld, have continued to report that Manning was recovering from surgery fibula fracture surgery. An isolated fibula fracture, even a complete one, would require only 6-8 weeks total rehab. Manning previous had that type of injury and actually came back early after 5 weeks. Today, it's ~5 1/2 months since the injury. So either he had a complication from surgery........which the Texans never reported to have occurred or had more extensive injuries.

I found this isolated Tweet I never saw back at the very end of the year.:





Then I went back and tried to get a still of when the injury occurred.


http://nfldraftdiamonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/20131013-234612.jpg


It appears that with such a long rehab, injuries sustained in addition to the fibula fracture (which was likely the proximal segment that is attached to the lateral collateral ligament) would definitely have to have included surgery...........for a tear of the posterior cruciate ligament (this ligament is the "check" ligament that prevents forward bending of the knee) and most likely for the lateral collateral ligament/fibula fracture segment, and also for the lateral meniscus, possibly the medial meniscus. It would not be unusual for any combination of this injuries included direct knee cartilage damage.


http://crashingpatient.com/wp-content/images/part1/news041403tt.gif



http://medical.cdn.patient.co.uk/images/178.gif


A posterior cruciate tear alone that requires surgery requires a very long recovery. When muscle strength is adequate, light jogging only begins at ~6 months and full return to play is not atypically allowed until 9-12 months after surgery.

This could very well explain why such concern regarding what was originally reported as a "hairline fracture of the fibula."

Fantastic work as usual...thanks for the effort!

imatexan
03-31-2014, 11:48 PM
Well we continue to downgrade at all positions..

steelbtexan
04-01-2014, 12:44 AM
They might just be thinking to draft someone who can play both slot CB + Safety in early rounds.

Jaylen Watkins?

kiwitexansfan
04-01-2014, 04:38 AM
Jaylen Watkins?

Lamarcus Joyner

honored82
04-01-2014, 05:18 AM
Lamarcus Joyner

Joyner is only 5'8". may be Telvin Smith, he is 6'3" and versatile.

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 07:18 AM
Well we continue to downgrade at all positions..

Depends on how you look at it. So far, it appears that OB doesn't like paying for 30+ year olds with injury issues.

texansrule2014
04-01-2014, 09:08 AM
thats why they kept his def coach,..they want to keep JJ happy

WolverineFan
04-01-2014, 09:36 AM
Joyner is only 5'8". may be Telvin Smith, he is 6'3" and versatile.

And? Tyrann Mathieu is only 5'9. That doesn't stop him from having an impact.

Joyner is going to be a heck of a player as a slot CB and SS.

Lucky
04-01-2014, 10:06 AM
Look at all the starters that are gone. It's a rebuilding like it or not.
This was a 2-14 team. It should be rebuilt. Out with the old, overpaid, underachievers. In with the young, hungry, overachievers (hopefully). This is how the NFL works.

Double Barrel
04-01-2014, 10:32 AM
How does manning being cut equate to rebuilding?

It does not equate.

But, it is part of the equation.

I guess it depends on how you define "rebuild". A new head coach, whole new staff, completely new schemes on both sides of the ball, new QB, lots of other new starters...I'd say this is pretty obvious of a rebuild. Expecting playoffs in 2014 is setting yourself up for disappointment.

DX-TEX
04-01-2014, 11:02 AM
It does not equate.

But, it is part of the equation.

I guess it depends on how you define "rebuild". A new head coach, whole new staff, completely new schemes on both sides of the ball, new QB, lots of other new starters...I'd say this is pretty obvious of a rebuild. Expecting playoffs in 2014 is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Yeah. I expect a Super Bowl and will settle for nothing less.

I believe in BOB

Double Barrel
04-01-2014, 11:25 AM
Yeah. I expect a Super Bowl and will settle for nothing less.

I believe in BOB

Long term, yeah, I can get on board with that.

This season? 'eh, not so much. ;)

Playoffs
04-01-2014, 11:30 AM
Danieal Manning, recently cut by #Texans, will visit the #Bengals, source says. That’s the home of former Houston DBs coach Vance Joseph.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/450987678268284930

TexansSeminole
04-01-2014, 11:41 AM
It does not equate.

But, it is part of the equation.

I guess it depends on how you define "rebuild". A new head coach, whole new staff, completely new schemes on both sides of the ball, new QB, lots of other new starters...I'd say this is pretty obvious of a rebuild. Expecting playoffs in 2014 is setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't think the Manning release is a rebuild move. I think this is the type of move we will see in the future. We signed Lewis for depth and Clemons to be a starter. Manning was in the last year of his deal and coming off a pretty significant injury for someone of his age. It looks like a simple replacement to me. In the end, we probably got stronger at safety. We have more depth (Lewis) and we replaced a starter with another player that is younger, cheaper, and similar in skill level.

That's not to say that we aren't rebuilding, I just don't see this move as a rebuilding move.

Double Barrel
04-01-2014, 12:04 PM
I don't think the Manning release is a rebuild move. I think this is the type of move we will see in the future. We signed Lewis for depth and Clemons to be a starter. Manning was in the last year of his deal and coming off a pretty significant injury for someone of his age. It looks like a simple replacement to me. In the end, we probably got stronger at safety. We have more depth (Lewis) and we replaced a starter with another player that is younger, cheaper, and similar in skill level.

That's not to say that we aren't rebuilding, I just don't see this move as a rebuilding move.

It is an understandable perspective.

My take is not specific that cutting Manning reveals a rebuild. But rather he's yet another veteran leader being purged. The purge itself it indicative of a rebuild, not specific players in and of themselves.

Letting Manning go had as much to do with money as anything else according to all news reports.

Think about all the starters that are now gone. This is not a Kansas City Chiefs 2013 situation. O'Brien & Company are clearly looking long term, both regarding cap space and players that fit his schemes on both sides of the ball.

And I'm okay with that, as it is expected when a team gets a new head coach. Rare is the case where all a team needs is a new head coach after a 2-14 season. Like Lucky said, this team should be torn down and rebuilt after last season.

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 12:18 PM
That's not to say that we aren't rebuilding, I just don't see this move as a rebuilding move.

I guess it depends on what we consider rebuilding. I'll have to look & see how many starters we replaced last season. Wade Smith though... I thought we should have dumped him last year, I don't understand letting him play out his contract for his level of play the previous year. I surely did not expect him to bounce back.

But I don't consider it a rebuild if you don't have to change out your core players. Matt, OD, & DMann... I thought they were part of that core. HC change as well..... yup it's a rebuild.

I still think we're going to be competitive next season though. I believe we have a stronger core than most of the teams on our schedule. I don't think we'll be in the division hunt come December, but we'll be a strong contender for a Wild Card.

ObsiWan
04-01-2014, 02:07 PM
Yeah. I expect a Super Bowl and will settle for nothing less.

I believe in BOB
I notice you didn't say when you expected a Super Bowl.
:fingergun:

WolverineFan
04-01-2014, 02:07 PM
Typically, when you hire a new Head Coach and sign/draft a new QB, it's a rebuild.

bah007
04-01-2014, 02:19 PM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

infantrycak
04-01-2014, 02:24 PM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

It's a new low point even for off-seasons. Next up we'll debate whether elephants are huge or enormous.

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 02:28 PM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

Rebuild to me says we don't expect to win much. I refuse to believe that.

TexansSeminole
04-01-2014, 02:32 PM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

I thought about that after I commented. It's about on par with the "who is most responsible for selling the play action" conversation.

WolverineFan
04-01-2014, 02:42 PM
It's a new low point even for off-seasons. Next up we'll debate whether elephants are huge or enormous.

I'd go huge. Whales are enormous. JMO.

bah007
04-01-2014, 02:48 PM
I thought about that after I commented. It's about on par with the "who is most responsible for selling the play action" conversation.

Haha touché.

JCTexan
04-01-2014, 02:51 PM
I'd go huge. Whales are enormous. JMO.

Male elephants can be up to 13 feet.. I would go with enormous. :fingergun:

CloakNNNdagger
04-01-2014, 03:33 PM
I guess it depends on what we consider rebuilding. I'll have to look & see how many starters we replaced last season. Wade Smith though... I thought we should have dumped him last year, I don't understand letting him play out his contract for his level of play the previous year. I surely did not expect him to bounce back.

But I don't consider it a rebuild if you don't have to change out your core players. Matt, OD, & DMann... I thought they were part of that core. HC change as well..... yup it's a rebuild.

I still think we're going to be competitive next season though. I believe we have a stronger core than most of the teams on our schedule. I don't think we'll be in the division hunt come December, but we'll be a strong contender for a Wild Card.


I too hope our rebuild, or should I say "new do", will be competitive and entertaining.

HOU-TEX
04-01-2014, 03:42 PM
I too hope our rebuild, or should I say "new do", will be competitive and entertaining.

Couldn't be worse than last year....

CloakNNNdagger
04-01-2014, 03:44 PM
Manning is scheduled to also meet with the Chiefs on Thursday.....maybe one comes (Kendricks) in the door while one goes out the door (Manning).

imatexan
04-01-2014, 03:53 PM
Depends on how you look at it. So far, it appears that OB doesn't like paying for 30+ year olds with injury issues.


I can understand that but where is this money going then because it certainly isn't going to pay other FA's because all of our signings so far have not been pricey in any way.

I'm just saying this year so far we continue to downgrade at every position. That doesn't mean we are not getting younger and paying less but Clemens is a downgrade over Manning for this year.

Double Barrel
04-01-2014, 04:04 PM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

It is only a subject because the owner of the team specifically stated that it's not a rebuild.

Without that statement, most of us would think rebuild is obvious and not mention it.

Perhaps you should take up your point with the owner of the team. :fingergun:

Rebuild to me says we don't expect to win much.

My thoughts, as well.

I refuse to believe that.

Not my thoughts at all. In my mind, if I consider a team in rebuild mode, I'm more patient with the process. Rebuilding suggests years in the making and I think this is where the franchise is at right now.

Those that listen to Mr. McNair and expect a winning season might be disappointed. But, if they end up winning, then I'm pleasantly surprised. ;)

CloakNNNdagger
04-01-2014, 04:32 PM
Those that listen to Mr. McNair and expect a winning season might be disappointed. But, if they end up winning, then I'm pleasantly surprised. ;)

One consoling point is if Mr. McNair continues to propagate this pattern of predicting great things for the next season.........one day, he's bound to be right!

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 04:46 PM
Couldn't be worse than last year....

I was thoroughly entertained last season. It took me a while to realize we weren't going to score any points in the second half... I think the first Jacksonville game.

From then on, I kept telling myself, "This is the game he learns to pick up the blitz."

The Pencil Neck
04-01-2014, 04:56 PM
One consoling point is if Mr. McNair continues to propagate this pattern of predicting great things for the next season.........one day, he's bound to be right!

Not necessarily: see Browns, Cleveland.

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 04:58 PM
In my mind, if I consider a team in rebuild mode, I'm more patient with the process. Rebuilding suggests years in the making and I think this is where the franchise is at right now.


Most of the time, probably. I don't really expect us to be very good, so I'm pretty patient from that perspective. I don't think we'll be forcing our will on anyone in the near future.

in 2014, I just expect us to not suck as bad as:

Buffalo (4-12) can't remember the last time they had a winning season
Cleveland (4-12) same, I think Belichick was their coach
Jacksonville (4-12)... it's been awhile since they had a winning season
Raiders (4-12)... look at their QB
Tennessee (7-9).... it's been a while since they had a winning season
Redskins (3-13)... they've got as many issues as we do
Dallas Cowboys (8-8)... they've got as many issues as we do
New York Giants (7-9)... They've got as many issues as we do
Steelers (8-8)... They've got as many issues as we do

That's 11 games against teams that are as bad as we are, or worse.



Those that listen to Mr. McNair and expect a winning season might be disappointed. But, if they end up winning, then I'm pleasantly surprised. ;)


I'll be pleasantly surprised if we beat Indy, or Philly... if we win the division.

I'll be very disappointed if we're swept by the Titans & the Jags (again).

_King_
04-01-2014, 05:00 PM
We'll win the division.

ObsiWan
04-01-2014, 06:21 PM
Most of the time, probably. I don't really expect us to be very good, so I'm pretty patient from that perspective. I don't think we'll be forcing our will on anyone in the near future.

in 2014, I just expect us to not suck as bad as:

Buffalo (4-12) can't remember the last time they had a winning season
Cleveland (4-12) same, I think Belichick was their coach
Jacksonville (4-12)... it's been awhile since they had a winning season
Raiders (4-12)... look at their QB
Tennessee (7-9).... it's been a while since they had a winning season
Redskins (3-13)... they've got as many issues as we do
Dallas Cowboys (8-8)... they've got as many issues as we do
New York Giants (7-9)... They've got as many issues as we do
Steelers (8-8)... They've got as many issues as we do

That's 11 games against teams that are as bad as we are, or worse.

The bolded teams have something we are searching for, a solid, established starting QB. Two of them have multi-SB winning QBs. If this is the "QB-driven league" everyone says it is, their presence has to give them an edge.

And in those division games, I'm hoping for a home-&-home split (this year anyway) so that's six games I not be surprised if we lost.

I salute your optimism though. I just don't have it yet. .....maybe after training camp.

Double Barrel
04-01-2014, 06:28 PM
Most of the time, probably. I don't really expect us to be very good, so I'm pretty patient from that perspective. I don't think we'll be forcing our will on anyone in the near future.

in 2014, I just expect us to not suck as bad as:

Buffalo (4-12) can't remember the last time they had a winning season
Cleveland (4-12) same, I think Belichick was their coach
Jacksonville (4-12)... it's been awhile since they had a winning season
Raiders (4-12)... look at their QB
Tennessee (7-9).... it's been a while since they had a winning season
Redskins (3-13)... they've got as many issues as we do
Dallas Cowboys (8-8)... they've got as many issues as we do
New York Giants (7-9)... They've got as many issues as we do
Steelers (8-8)... They've got as many issues as we do

That's 11 games against teams that are as bad as we are, or worse.





I'll be pleasantly surprised if we beat Indy, or Philly... if we win the division.

I'll be very disappointed if we're swept by the Titans & the Jags (again).

I hope you're right.

However, the last time the Texans won a game was in September. I'm still numb to the fact that this team experienced a 14 game losing streak. One day I will probably just explode in spontaneous maniacal laughter when the realization truly hits me.

I'm not good at predictions, so I won't even try. At this point, we do not even have a clue who will be the starting QB for the first game. It is tough to predict any type of success when there are so many unknowns.

That said, I have confidence in O'Brien (based on hope as a fan), so I just want to see a squad that is competitive. I saw a lot of quit last year, so an improvement to me would be a team that refuses to accept losing as a way of life. Beyond that, who they beat and what the final record will be is a complete mystery.

infantrycak
04-01-2014, 06:54 PM
The bolded teams have something we are searching for, a solid, established starting QB. Two of them have multi-SB winning QBs. If this is the "QB-driven league" everyone says it is, their presence has to give them an edge.

Agreed generally but one of those multi-SB winning QBs just turned in a 69.4 rating season. Let that sink in for a second - it's worse than Schaub's epically bad season.

I'd put it at two above average starters and two giant question marks.

ObsiWan
04-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Agreed generally but one of those multi-SB winning QBs just turned in a 69.4 rating season. Let that sink in for a second - it's worse than Schaub's epically bad season.

I'd put it at two above average starters and two giant question marks.
Fair enough. Still, experience-wise anyway, they're ahead of us. At least until I see different.

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 07:32 PM
Redskins (3-13)... they've got as many issues as we do
Dallas Cowboys (8-8)... they've got as many issues as we do
New York Giants (7-9)... They've got as many issues as we do
Steelers (8-8)... They've got as many issues as we do


The bolded teams have something we are searching for, a solid, established starting QB. Two of them have multi-SB winning QBs. If this is the "QB-driven league" everyone says it is, their presence has to give them an edge.

And in those division games, I'm hoping for a home-&-home split (this year anyway) so that's six games I not be surprised if we lost.

I salute your optimism though. I just don't have it yet. .....maybe after training camp.

First of all, I'm not saying we're going to win all 11 games. Just pointing out the teams we're playing have not had a lot of success lately.

Secondly, those teams with solid, established QBs.... c'mon. RG3 hasn't established jack (I'd love it if he were our QB, but that's another story), Romo doesn't know what a play off game is, much less a victory, Eli..... again, I wouldn't mind if he were our QB, or Ben for that matter, but it's been a struggle for them to get to 8-8 the past two years (both the Giants & the Steelers). Tell me they're further along on their rebuild than we are... it's a better arguement than the solidarity of their established QBs, but in the case of the Giants, Redskins, & Cowboys I'm not seeing it.

drs23
04-01-2014, 07:40 PM
Most of the time, probably. I don't really expect us to be very good, so I'm pretty patient from that perspective. I don't think we'll be forcing our will on anyone in the near future.

in 2014, I just expect us to not suck as bad as:

Buffalo (4-12) can't remember the last time they had a winning season
Cleveland (4-12) same, I think Belichick was their coach
Jacksonville (4-12)... it's been awhile since they had a winning season
Raiders (4-12)... look at their QB
Tennessee (7-9).... it's been a while since they had a winning season
Redskins (3-13)... they've got as many issues as we do
Dallas Cowboys (8-8)... they've got as many issues as we do
New York Giants (7-9)... They've got as many issues as we do
Steelers (8-8)... They've got as many issues as we do

That's 11 games against teams that are as bad as we are, or worse.





I'll be pleasantly surprised if we beat Indy, or Philly... if we win the division.

I'll be very disappointed if we're swept by the Titans & the Jags (again).

Din't happen there, Lucy!

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 07:43 PM
I'm not good at predictions, so I won't even try. At this point, we do not even have a clue who will be the starting QB for the first game. It is tough to predict any type of success when there are so many unknowns.

That said, I have confidence in O'Brien (based on hope as a fan), so I just want to see a squad that is competitive.

I'm with you on all the above. I'm not asking anyone to predict a winning season, or even our final W-L (not in this thread anyway)... alls I'm saying here, is that to be competitive in 2014, we just need to suck less than the 9 teams (11 games) I listed.

I'm not a Rick Smith fan. He hasn't proven to me that he's qualified to handle the responsibilities our owner seems to believe are in his wheelhouse. IMO, if we're not competitive with the Browns, Bills, or Raiders (we're talking a decade of suck), I'll be convinced he is not.

We lost 14 in a row last season. You'd think I'd be convinced of that now, but we've scapegoated Kubiak & Schaub and I have no problem believing it was their fault (even though Schaub only played in 6 games, winning two of them). Those excuses are gone now, I'm rooting for Teflon Rick.... really, I am. I'm betting we'll be competitive against this schedule.

drs23
04-01-2014, 07:48 PM
I'm with you on all the above. I'm not asking anyone to predict a winning season, or even our final W-L (not in this thread anyway)... alls I'm saying here, is that to be competitive in 2014, we just need to suck less than the 9 teams (11 games) I listed.

I'm not a Rick Smith fan. He hasn't proven to me that he's qualified to handle the responsibilities our owner seems to believe are in his wheelhouse. IMO, if we're not competitive with the Browns, Bills, or Raiders (we're talking a decade of suck), I'll be convinced he is not.

We lost 14 in a row last season. You'd think I'd be convinced of that now, but we've scapegoated Kubiak & Schaub and I have no problem believing it was their fault (even though Schaub only played in 6 games, winning two of them). Those excuses are gone now, I'm rooting for Teflon Rick.... really, I am. I'm betting we'll be competitive against this schedule.

Me too. We'll find out if the problem was the former HC or the GM. Like Grammy always told me, "The proof is in the puddin".

I'm stoked waiting for our draft and next season!

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 07:50 PM
Din't happen there, Lucy!

...... the "(again)" was only meant for the Jags.

Beer and Metal
04-01-2014, 07:59 PM
It is only a subject because the owner of the team specifically stated that it's not a rebuild.
Without that statement, most of us would think rebuild is obvious and not mention it.

Perhaps you should take up your point with the owner of the team. :fingergun:



My thoughts, as well.



Not my thoughts at all. In my mind, if I consider a team in rebuild mode, I'm more patient with the process. Rebuilding suggests years in the making and I think this is where the franchise is at right now.

Those that listen to Mr. McNair and expect a winning season might be disappointed. But, if they end up winning, then I'm pleasantly surprised. ;)

It's not a rebuild, it's a house flip.
You got your new guy in charge (head Coach), his main contractors (asst. coaches), and the money guy (GM).
Re do the kitchen (QB), put some good flooring and paint in the living spaces (offense), upgrade the bath and bedrooms (defense), and tweak the landscape (special teams).
If everyone's on the same page and knows what they're doing, I can see them be competitive fairly quickly.

drs23
04-01-2014, 08:06 PM
...... the "(again)" was only meant for the Jags.

Oh. OK then, carry on. :tiphat:

thunderkyss
04-01-2014, 08:14 PM
We lost 14 in a row last season. You'd think I'd be convinced of that now, but we've scapegoated Kubiak & Schaub and I have no problem believing it was their fault (even though Schaub only played in 6 games, winning two of them). Those excuses are gone now, I'm rooting for Teflon Rick.... really, I am. I'm betting we'll be competitive against this schedule.

I'll give him this... a lot of the players he drafted somehow wound up 10-6 with the Philadelphia Eagles.

leebigeztx
04-01-2014, 08:17 PM
Rebuild to me says we don't expect to win much. I refuse to believe that.


To me, 30yr old high salaried guys need to play at or near pro bowl caliber to stick. OD has been done to me. He hasn't been able to split safeties in 4 yrs. Antonio was always solid and overrated on this board. He was not a 9m de in any scheme. If he was 3-4m ok,cool,but he wasn't. Wade Smith,Daniel Manning, same thing. I thought Wade should've been replaced at least this past season,but he didn't play well 2 yrs ago.

This is just washing out older more expensive guys and replacing them with younger cheaper guys. Core wise, I think the texans have a pretty good core. Its time for guys like Crick,Quess,Jones,williams,and williams to step up and play. The colts and redskins made the playoffs with holes all over the place 2 yrs ago. This league is setup to go 7-9,8-8,9-7. There isn't a lot of differece in talent from a 6-10 and a 10-6 team. Not to mention, the division doesn't have a dominant team and neither do the other 2 division they play. I think,even with a rookie qb to be 7-9 or 8-8. If things fall right,they could get to 9 maybe10 wins. I think RAC with the existing talent will get this team into top 10 defensively. That alone will make this team a lot better.

honored82
04-02-2014, 04:56 AM
Manning is scheduled to also meet with the Chiefs on Thursday.....maybe one comes (Kendricks) in the door while one goes out the door (Manning).

KC lost playoffs due to Kendricks giving up that long TD to T Y Hilton. KC is trying to get better than One and Done! so they kicked him out.... You think Manning is an upgrade with his injuries ? idk

Heck i would take playoffs with One and Done this season, may be not to the Colts, some other team, and then upgrade kendricks next season like KC.

Nitrofish
04-02-2014, 05:11 AM
We'll win the division.

I don't see it.

thunderkyss
04-02-2014, 08:32 AM
KC lost playoffs due to Kendricks giving up that long TD to T Y Hilton. KC is trying to get better than One and Done! so they kicked him out.... You think Manning is an upgrade with his injuries ? idk



They gave up 45 points. I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around.

ObsiWan
04-02-2014, 09:29 AM
To me, 30yr old high salaried guys need to play at or near pro bowl caliber to stick. OD has been done to me. He hasn't been able to split safeties in 4 yrs. Antonio was always solid and overrated on this board. He was not a 9m de in any scheme. If he was 3-4m ok,cool,but he wasn't. Wade Smith,Daniel Manning, same thing. I thought Wade should've been replaced at least this past season,but he didn't play well 2 yrs ago.

This is just washing out older more expensive guys and replacing them with younger cheaper guys. Core wise, I think the texans have a pretty good core. Its time for guys like Crick,Quess,Jones,williams,and williams to step up and play. The colts and redskins made the playoffs with holes all over the place 2 yrs ago. This league is setup to go 7-9,8-8,9-7. There isn't a lot of differece in talent from a 6-10 and a 10-6 team. Not to mention, the division doesn't have a dominant team and neither do the other 2 division they play. I think,even with a rookie qb to be 7-9 or 8-8. If things fall right,they could get to 9 maybe10 wins. I think RAC with the existing talent will get this team into top 10 defensively. That alone will make this team a lot better.
I seem to recall Casserly & company having a similar mindset. We were 7-9 when he started making "get rid of the expensive old guys" moves. The next year we were 2-14.
Careful what you wish for.

DocBar
04-02-2014, 12:57 PM
The bolded teams have something we are searching for, a solid, established starting QB. Two of them have multi-SB winning QBs. If this is the "QB-driven league" everyone says it is, their presence has to give them an edge.

And in those division games, I'm hoping for a home-&-home split (this year anyway) so that's six games I not be surprised if we lost.

I salute your optimism though. I just don't have it yet. .....maybe after training camp.I have a hard time calling RGIII solid and established. He's very much a work in progress.

_King_
04-02-2014, 02:33 PM
Unless I was imagining it, I think I read somewhere that OB said don't rule out Manning returning to Houston. Manning is gauging his value on the market.

DocBar
04-02-2014, 02:37 PM
Unless I was imagining it, I think I read somewhere that OB said don't rule out Manning returning to Houston. Manning is gauging his value on the market.You did indeed read that. It's on the Texans website.

nero THE zero
04-02-2014, 03:48 PM
You did indeed read that. It's on the Texans website.

Interesting.

Would certainly explain (aside from just being a good guy from all I could tell) the tenor of his comments upon departure.

I'll keep my fingers crossed in the most self-serving way imaginable for the market to not live up to Manning's expectations.

ObsiWan
04-02-2014, 07:39 PM
I have a hard time calling RGIII solid and established. He's very much a work in progress.
My point was that we don't have anyone on our current roster with even that level of success.

2012 Offensive RotY
led his team to 9-6 record.

in Fitzy's best seasons he topped out at 6 wins.

Yates' best year was his rookie year when he went 2-3; 3-4 if you count the playoff games.

Keenum is OH-fer 2013

And this game is about producing wins, right?


okay, I'll concede that RGIII is still a work in progress. ...and?

sandman
04-03-2014, 05:42 AM
My point was that we don't have anyone on our current roster with even that level of success.

...

okay, I'll concede that RGIII is still a work in progress. ...and?

Just because a QB is better than what the Texans have on the roster doesn't mean I would want them on the roster.

For example, for most of Eli Manning's career, he has been closer to Matt Schaub than to Tom Brady. 81% QBR for his career, poor TD:INT ratio, poor completion %, missed playoffs four out of last five years.

Matt Schaub has as many 12-win seasons as Eli, and both lost in the Divisional round of the playoffs. Eli has averaged 9 wins a season over his career, while Schaub averaged 8.

But he twice in 10 years rode a playoff hot streak to two fluke Super Bowls, and everyone points to him as a clutch QB who "just wins".

ObsiWan
04-03-2014, 09:47 AM
Just because a QB is better than what the Texans have on the roster doesn't mean I would want them on the roster.

For example, for most of Eli Manning's career, he has been closer to Matt Schaub than to Tom Brady. 81% QBR for his career, poor TD:INT ratio, poor completion %, missed playoffs four out of last five years.

Matt Schaub has as many 12-win seasons as Eli, and both lost in the Divisional round of the playoffs. Eli has averaged 9 wins a season over his career, while Schaub averaged 8.

But he twice in 10 years rode a playoff hot streak to two fluke Super Bowls, and everyone points to him as a clutch QB who "just wins".
But
...in that fifth year he took his team to the Super Bowl and beat Tom Brady in the process.

When the bright lights came on and he was on the biggest stage in the NFL, Eli delivered. (with very possibly the luckiest damned catch since the Steeler's "Immaculate Reception")
Can we say that about Schaub...?
And I said "we" because I am a Schaub fan.
Still am. (well as much as I can be a fan of a non-Texan)

But the original post was in response to ThunderKyss's implication that there were 11 teams on our schedule that we have a 50-50 chance of beating because they're in a similar state of "rebuild" to us.
My point was four of those teams have "established" starting QBs. And by "established" I mean they've been there and taken their teams to winning seasons and/or playoff land.
The naked truth is as of this moment
We. Do. Not.
As such - and this is the only point I was making - that gives them something of an edge that we would be unwise to overlook.

thunderkyss
04-03-2014, 09:53 AM
But
...in that fifth year he took his team to the Super Bowl and beat Tom Brady in the process.

When the bright lights came on and he was on the biggest stage in the NFL, Eli delivered.

That's his point. Matt Schaub was the better QB over those years. Better than Flacco as well, but... those guys have Super Bowls & we don't.


Just because the teams you mentioned have better QBs than we do, don't mean a whole lot. For all the good they are, they sure don't win a lot of games. & when we're talking about them being on our schedule next season, the fact that they are on those teams mean nothing.

We don't know who our QB is going to be, but our team has demonstrated more recently than they have with their "established" QBs, that they know how to win.

infantrycak
04-03-2014, 09:54 AM
But
...in that fifth year he took his team to the Super Bowl and beat Tom Brady in the process.

When the bright lights came on and he was on the biggest stage in the NFL, Eli delivered. (with very possibly the luckiest damned catch since the Steeler's "Immaculate Reception")
Can we say that about Schaub...?

This is the total disconnect for me. Can we say what about Schaub? - that he never had one of the NFL's luckiest catches made to avoid a playoff loss? Sure, but so what? How does that reflect on either QB. It was a poorly thrown desperation attempt which magically paid off due to the miraculous play of a never had more than 215 yds in a season, soon to be cut and out of the league WR. That's it.

ObsiWan
04-03-2014, 10:12 AM
This is the total disconnect for me. Can we say what about Schaub? - that he never had one of the NFL's luckiest catches made to avoid a playoff loss? Sure, but so what? How does that reflect on either QB. It was a poorly thrown desperation attempt which magically paid off due to the miraculous play of a never had more than 215 yds in a season, soon to be cut and out of the league WR. That's it.
What about winning the three other playoff games to even be in the position to chunk that prayer up in the first place?
...did I mention all three of those other wins were on the road?

Edit:
those could be considered "big stage auditions".


edit/edit:
Man we're bored.
:D

infantrycak
04-03-2014, 10:19 AM
What about winning the three other playoff games to even be in the position to chunk that prayer up in the first place?
...did I mention all three of those other wins were on the road?

Edit:
those could be considered "big stage auditions".


edit/edit:
Man we're bored.
:D


He played great in two of them and then marginal to crap in the 3rd that got them in the SB. Now Flacco really upped his game in the playoffs two years ago.

Yeah, we're bored.

steelbtexan
04-03-2014, 11:14 AM
Why is everyone so obsessed with what we're calling it? This has spilled over into multiple threads now. I don't care what it is, as long as it works and sets this franchise up with a plan for long term success.

Agreed

But after a decade I'm starting to question the McNair's commitment to building a long term on the field successful product.

You will never convince me that BoB McNair is as dumb as MB posters make him out to be when it comes to putting a successful product on the field.

Yeah, those are the type of guys that become billionaires.

Yes, the Texans are and should be in a rebuilding mode.

Playoffs
04-03-2014, 11:43 AM
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Former #Texans Safety Danieal Manning doing a one-year deal with the Bengals

ObsiWan
04-03-2014, 11:50 AM
That's his point. Matt Schaub was the better QB over those years. Better than Flacco as well, but... those guys have Super Bowls & we don't.

Just because the teams you mentioned have better QBs than we do, don't mean a whole lot. For all the good they are, they sure don't win a lot of games. & when we're talking about them being on our schedule next season, the fact that they are on those teams mean nothing.

We don't know who our QB is going to be, but our team has demonstrated more recently than they have with their "established" QBs, that they know how to win.
I've already conceded that the mere presence of those QBs doesn't mean we'll automatically lose those games. In fact, if Schaub was still here and running the offense he knows, I'd say we'd have a damn good chance of kicking their a$$es. (Flame on, Schaub haters). But truth is they have better quality at QB than we do. At least right now.

And as somewhat of an aside, how is it when I say the best athlete/player in the draft ISN'T one of the "wunderkind" QBs but Robinson or Watkins or Clowney or Matthews and that's where we should spend our 1-1 pick, I get shouted down with cries of "Ya gotta go QB because he'll have the biggest impact!"
Okay...QB = biggest impact guy. got it.

Then when I say, "We're behind the power curve QB-wise against some of the teams that are in a similar 'rebuild' state as we are, therefore they have an edge." You say, "the fact that they are on those teams mean nothing" Even though they've had more success (depending on how you measure it) than any of our current guys.

So which is it? Un-confuse me.

thunderkyss
04-03-2014, 12:02 PM
And as somewhat of an aside, how is it when I say the best athlete/player in the draft ISN'T one of the "wunderkind" QBs but Robinson or Watkins or Clowney or Matthews and that's where we should spend our 1-1 pick, I get shouted down with cries of "Ya gotta go QB because he'll have the biggest impact!"
Okay...QB = biggest impact guy. got it.

Then when I say, "We're behind the power curve QB-wise against some of the teams that are in a similar 'rebuild' state as we are, therefore they have an edge." You say, "the fact that they are on those teams mean nothing" Even though they've had more success (depending on how you measure it) than any of our current guys.

So which is it? Un-confuse me.

It depends on who you're talking to. At no time have you heard me say QB is so important that we've got to take one of these mid first rounder, early second round QBs with our #1 overall.

I've said many times I think Watkins is the best prospect in this draft bar none, but I want Robinson.


Tell me this. How would you feel if you were a Redskins fan & your team must went 3-13 & for all you know RG3 may never be the same again.

Or that you're sending Romo out there again after missing the play offs again with a team you stripped bare to get under the cap.

Or that you've missed the play offs the last two seasons like the Steelers did & you're now #3 in your division.

I like franchise QBs as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather be winning.

ObsiWan
04-03-2014, 01:39 PM
It depends on who you're talking to. At no time have you heard me say QB is so important that we've got to take one of these mid first rounder, early second round QBs with our #1 overall.

I've said many times I think Watkins is the best prospect in this draft bar none, but I want Robinson. Then we're on the same page. ...well you know I want Robinson (or Matthews if we trade down and Rob is gone).

Tell me this. How would you feel if you were a Redskins fan & your team must went 3-13 & for all you know RG3 may never be the same again.
If RGII fails to recover, I've got Cousins to tide me over until I can find another guy

Or that you're sending Romo out there again after missing the play offs again with a team you stripped bare to get under the cap.As a cowboy fan (ugh, it hurts to think that way) I'm stuck with Jerrah. I have no hope until he stops being delusional and stops playing GM and behind the scenes HC.

Or that you've missed the play offs the last two seasons like the Steelers did & you're now #3 in your division. As a cocky Steeler fan I'd be "Everything runs in cycles. Chuck Knoll had slow years. So did Cowher. They bounced back and we WILL bounce back again." That's how they think. And historically, they haven't been far off.

I like franchise QBs as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather be winning.No argument there either. That's why I'd rather build a solid core this year - especially with ELEVEN draft picks and the possibility to get even more - and if O'Brien can't develop one of the guys we'll have this year (Fitz, Case, Yates, whichever new-guy O'Brien thinks is worthy) then we snag a guy next year.

We'll have to.

Troy Chapman
04-04-2014, 03:35 PM
I can't believe this. How big a pay cut did they ask him to take?

http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=D...S&Team=Bengals

1 million base with a 100k bonus and another 500k in incentives. My guess was about right but thought the base would be at least 2 million.

The texans were asking him to come down to about 1.5 million or so based on report.

DocBar
04-04-2014, 07:28 PM
I can't believe this. How big a pay cut did they ask him to take?

http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=D...S&Team=Bengals

1 million base with a 100k bonus and another 500k in incentives. My guess was about right but thought the base would be at least 2 million.

The texans were asking him to come down to about 1.5 million or so based on report.It was probably a shock to Manning to see what he was worth on the open market. I wish he'd taken the paycut and stayed here.

Troy Chapman
04-07-2014, 10:07 AM
It was probably a shock to Manning to see what he was worth on the open market. I wish he'd taken the paycut and stayed here.

Yea maybe so. Thought he could get more on the open market but did not happen. Guessing he called ahead to KC to see what they would be offering since he stayed at Cincy to be the safety #3.