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LikeMike
03-14-2014, 08:07 PM
I know, after being the worst team in the NFL I guess most teams would be rebuilding. But I really believe last years nightmare was mostly due to a combination of QB play imploding, bad kicking and clueless coaching. Our team all in all was definetly good enough to make the playoffs if Schaub would`ve been able to keep his playing level from the previous year.

Now I know that going crazy in FA isn`t the way to go, and building through the draft makes a lot of sense. But with us not adding one "good" player while losing Daniels and Smith kinda looks like we are more in it for the future than the present. The salary cap went up significantly and with us probably getting rid of Schaub, we should`ve been able to get a great pass rusher or OT somewhere. But it seems like we are going for salary cap flexibility in the future more than we are going to make this team a contender soon.

Yeah, rookie QBs usually don`t give immediate success. But Id hate guys like Andre having to finish their career like that. And it felt like we were close before last season, it`s frustrating to think we are ready for 2-3 more crappy years.

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Hervoyel
03-14-2014, 08:11 PM
Of course we're rebuilding. It was inevitable. Nobody is saying that we're rebuilding but we're clearly rebuilding.

Playoffs
03-14-2014, 08:13 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104402

NastyNate
03-14-2014, 08:16 PM
I know, after being the worst team in the NFL I guess most teams would be rebuilding. But I really believe last years nightmare was mostly due to a combination of QB play imploding, bad kicking and clueless coaching. Our team all in all was definetly good enough to make the playoffs if Schaub would`ve been able to keep his playing level from the previous year.

Now I know that going crazy in FA isn`t the way to go, and building through the draft makes a lot of sense. But with us not adding one "good" player while losing Daniels and Smith kinda looks like we are more in it for the future than the present. The salary cap went up significantly and with us probably getting rid of Schaub, we should`ve been able to get a great pass rusher or OT somewhere. But it seems like we are going for salary cap flexibility in the future more than we are going to make this team a contender soon.

Yeah, rookie QBs usually don`t give immediate success. But Id hate guys like Andre having to finish their career like that. And it felt like we were close before last season, it`s frustrating to think we are ready for 2-3 more crappy years.

Or am I reading the situation wrong?


If the Jaguars were 2-14 last year, fired their entire coaching staff and had huge questions at defensive line, linebacker, QB, running back and offensive line, what would you say about them? Would they be rebuilding?

Yes indeed we are in full rebuild mode. There's no two ways about it.

Texan_Bill
03-14-2014, 08:26 PM
Meh!!

I don't believe this 2-14 team is actually a 2-14 team.


What I mean by that is that there is actually a lot of talent on this team.


Save the QB meltdown and the fact that the team quit on Kubiak there is talent here.

The question is: Are we rebuilding?





NO!! Re-tooling is more accurate. (And yes, there is a difference!)



Like Bill O'Brien is gonna let AJ get away like Steve Smith Leaving Carolina to the Ravens.

thunderkyss
03-14-2014, 08:48 PM
Other than us, who else is out there rebuilding?

What have they done since FA started?

How does that differ from what we've done?

CharloTex
03-14-2014, 09:27 PM
Yes.

_King_
03-14-2014, 09:29 PM
This shouldn't be a full scale rebuild. We have good players at key positions and we have some great players in watt, Dre, Cushing, Duane brown. Some good young players. Some good starters.

The main thing we need is a qb.

I think the rest of the roster won't be extremely hard to fill in around what we have already.

If we hit on the qb then I think that speeds up the recovery even more.

I've said this in other threads, but I don't expect this to be a bad team next year. There isn't a team I'd consider to be dominant in our division. Titans and jags are meh...colts are beatable. Our division isn't that tough tbh.

Get some good quality bargain free agents. Draft well.

I expect to see a good team next year. Maybe catch some breaks and exceed expectations.

I don't expect to see a team struggling to keep the lights on.

powda
03-14-2014, 09:41 PM
We are rebuilding and will continue to do so until we find competent qb play. I'll be thrilled with .500 next year.

bah007
03-14-2014, 09:52 PM
For those who think this isn't a full scale rebuild, let's be honest here. Let's look at the talent (or lack thereof) on this roster. Let's take a look at the guys on our team who would likely be contributors for most teams in the league.

QB - N/A
RB - Foster (coming off injury, again)
FB - N/A
WR 1 - Johnson
WR 2 - Hopkins (solid rookie year)
WR 3 - N/A
TE - N/A
LT - Brown
LG - N/A
C - Myers
RG - Brooks (maybe a stretch but I think he's on his way)
RT - N/A

WDE - N/A
NT - N/A
SDE - Watt
WOLB - N/A
WILB - Cushing
SILB - N/A
SOLB - N/A
CB 1 - Joseph
CB 2 - Jackson
FS - Manning
SS - N/A

K - N/A
P - Lechler
RET - N/A

If that's not a sobering reality check then I don't know what to tell you guys. This team has been held together by it's top talent for a while now. And it's gotten to the point where those guys can't do it by themselves anymore and they need some help.

_King_
03-14-2014, 10:04 PM
If we have good qb play next season we will compete for division champ. If we don't have good qb play we will struggle.

I don't care about the supposed holes we have right now. I don't agree with everyone's position listings and between young guys that are already here, FAs we'll sign and the draft I think we'll fill some holes with quality players. I also believe the coaching will be better.

So again, I expect this team to be competitive next year...if the find good qb play.

TexansSeminole
03-14-2014, 10:19 PM
Yes.

The Pencil Neck
03-14-2014, 10:33 PM
This is kinda what I was saying in another thread about winnable games.

I want to see what moves we make and I'm dying to know what our team is going to end up being. Because right now, I'm just seeing swiss cheese. We've got a few really great pieces, a few makeshift pieces, a few pieces that haven't been healthy and I don't know if we should count on, and... holes. Mostly holes.

I wasn't expecting us to make any huge splashes in FA. But I was expecting... something. Granted, a lot of the contracts that have been handed out so far are puzzling and more money that I think we should spend for some of these guys, but I'd like to at least be in the conversation for more of them.

Corrosion
03-14-2014, 11:11 PM
Meh!!

I don't believe this 2-14 team is actually a 2-14 team.


What I mean by that is that there is actually a lot of talent on this team.


Save the QB meltdown and the fact that the team quit on Kubiak there is talent here.



Sure , there is a lot of talent on this roster , like many others they have some really good players. The difference is that this roster has more holes than a Peking whore house while the contenders / non-rebuild mode teams have many fewer questionmarks.

The meltdown really highlights how pathetic last years draft was , its hard to believe that a 2-14 team couldn't get its draftee's on the field over the scrubs that went 2-14 (injuries were part of it but talent , work ethic and character were bigger issues).

thunderkyss
03-14-2014, 11:28 PM
For those who think this isn't a full scale rebuild, let's be honest here. Let's look at the talent (or lack thereof) on this roster. Let's take a look at the guys on our team who would likely be contributors for most teams in the league.

QB - N/A
RB - Foster (coming off injury, again)Pro Bowl
FB - N/A
WR 1 - JohnsonPro Bowl, All Pro
WR 2 - Hopkins (solid rookie year)
WR 3 - N/A
TE - N/A
LT - BrownPro Bowl
LG - N/A
C - MyersPro Bowl
RG - Brooks (maybe a stretch but I think he's on his way)3rd Year
RT - N/A

WDE - N/A
NT - N/A
SDE - WattDPOY, Pro Bowl, All-Pro
WOLB - N/A
WILB - CushingDROY(x2), Pro Bowl
SILB - N/A
SOLB - N/A
CB 1 - JosephPro Bowl
CB 2 - Jackson1st Round
FS - Manning
SS - N/A

K - N/A
P - Lechler
RET - N/A

If that's not a sobering reality check then I don't know what to tell you guys. This team has been held together by it's top talent for a while now. And it's gotten to the point where those guys can't do it by themselves anymore and they need some help.

Can't have pro bowlers & 1st rounders at every position. Especially considering we're going to be playing Buffalo, Oakland, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Dallas, Washington, Cincinnati, & Philly

& we play in the AFC & we play in the AFC South...

Granted, we won't fix all our problems in one offseason, we won't be very good, but we don't have to be, we just have to be better than the teams that have not had as much success as we have the past 5 years. (Kinda like I don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than you).

Andrew Luck, Reggie Wayne, & Ty Hilton won 11 games against a much more difficult schedule after the Colts were 2-14 the year before..

If we can fix half the holes this offseason, we'll be sitting pretty going into the 2015 off-season

Corrosion
03-14-2014, 11:34 PM
If we can fix half the holes this offseason, we'll be sitting pretty going into the 2015 off-season after the Colts were 2-14 the year before.


I'd agree with that ..... Pending QB is one of the positions we "fix" and that fix is a legit NFL talent. Doesn't have to be Luck good , just Rivers / Flacco good (long term).

thunderkyss
03-14-2014, 11:41 PM
I'd agree with that ..... Pending QB is one of the positions we "fix" and that fix is a legit NFL talent. Doesn't have to be Luck good , just Rivers / Flacco good (long term).

Agreed. Some QBs make their WRs look better than they actually are. We've got two pretty good ones, one can make a QB look better than he is. His blind-side, whoever he is, will be protected & as long as Vince Wilfork is recovering from his achilles, & Chris Jenkins is out of the league, he'll be able to step up into the pocket.

thunderkyss
03-14-2014, 11:45 PM
So what's the difference between rebuilding & reloading?

PapaL
03-15-2014, 12:38 AM
So what's the difference between rebuilding & reloading?

Winning and consistent success. Two things we don't know very well.

Have to build something before you rebuild. Is 2 playoff wins in our history something to rebuild or are we still building?

Dash
03-15-2014, 12:41 AM
I'm not sure if rebuilding would be the smartest thing to do considering that it would be wasting another year of Andre Johnson and the final year (?) of JJ Watt's pre-extension contract.

TexansSeminole
03-15-2014, 01:12 AM
I'm not sure if rebuilding would be the smartest thing to do considering that it would be wasting another year of Andre Johnson and the final year (?) of JJ Watt's pre-extension contract.

You act like we have a choice.

The Pencil Neck
03-15-2014, 01:55 AM
So what's the difference between rebuilding & reloading?

For me (and other people may not share this definition), RELOADING is where you change key personnel at several positions but continue winning. In most cases, there's no major philosophy change and no coaching change because those normally result in losing.

REBUILDING is when you have a philosophy change and have to have a substantial turnover in personnel to fit the new philosophy. This normally happens when you switch coaches but it can also happen if you change a coordinator and then bring in personnel to fit his new approach.

Lots of times, rebuilds don't actually work and turn into a series of regime changes and rebuilds until a successful combination of GM/Coaching Staff/Personnel is found. Occasionally, a coach will be able to put together a winning season while they're rebuilding (like Reid in KC or Sparano his first year in Miami) but that one winning season doesn't mean the rebuild worked.

Norg
03-15-2014, 02:35 AM
I really don't know I think we are I think Bill knows we are I wanna think rick knows we are but mcnair does not want to admit it maybe he wants to spin it to the public just to keep ticket sells stable but even he knows

I guess right now yes


I mean we have not done anything in the Free agent market and really not re signing our F/a

maybe ill know when I know who we cut

ObsiWan
03-15-2014, 04:09 AM
1. Other than us, who else is out there rebuilding?

2. What have they done since FA started?

3. How does that differ from what we've done?
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.


QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
TE - Brandon Myers from NYG

The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.


Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.

Marshall
03-15-2014, 05:03 AM
I'd say we're remodeling more than rebuilding. We have a foundation and a descent structure, but we need to move a few walls, rewire, repair some damage and decide whether to repaint or go with paneling. Then we have to do something about the floors.

LikeMike
03-15-2014, 05:18 AM
I'd say we're remodeling more than rebuilding. We have a foundation and a descent structure, but we need to move a few walls, rewire, repair some damage and decide whether to repaint or go with paneling. Then we have to do something about the floors.

I think if wed be remodeling, we would sign FAs and try to keep the ones, that are still helping us. Right now it looks like cost cutting mode, sucking a couple of years and building through the draft.

Before this offseason I believed we would somehow try to fix to QB position (either by draft or by getting a guy like Mallet) and then go attack again. But with how the FA is going, I think the plan is to attack again in 3 years. It may be the smart thing to do, but it sure is a frustrating thing to do as well.

Marshall
03-15-2014, 06:55 AM
I think if wed be remodeling, we would sign FAs and try to keep the ones, that are still helping us. Right now it looks like cost cutting mode, sucking a couple of years and building through the draft.

Before this offseason I believed we would somehow try to fix to QB position (either by draft or by getting a guy like Mallet) and then go attack again. But with how the FA is going, I think the plan is to attack again in 3 years. It may be the smart thing to do, but it sure is a frustrating thing to do as well.

We are essentially getting a draft and a half anyway since most of last seasons draft was on IR or used sparingly. I don't think this season is lost before it starts as some do.

ObsiWan
03-15-2014, 07:18 AM
If you wish to see who's done what so far in free agency, check ESPN's F/A tracker.

LINK (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/freeagency/?year=2014&type=-1)

you can sort by team, position, status (signed/unsigned), type (UFA, RFA, etc.), or year and see for yourself who has done what so far.

Edit: I'll repost this link in the F/A tracker thread - although I think Playoffs might have already provided this link earlier in the thread.
he's provided nearly every damn thing else :D

Texian
03-15-2014, 08:24 AM
According to Bob McNair, while in the middle of his temper tantrum in the midst of firing Gary Kubiak he stated a couple of times that the Texans were a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. He also said categorically that the Texans were NOT rebuilding. That should tell you all you need to know. (Bob is in denial)

LikeMike
03-15-2014, 09:18 AM
According to Bob McNair, while in the middle of his temper tantrum in the midst of firing Gary Kubiak he stated a couple of times that the Texans were a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. He also said categorically that the Texans were NOT rebuilding. That should tell you all you need to know. (Bob is in denial)

Well if we were not rebuilding, Id expect us to sign one different maker (perhaps someone like Byrd) and maybe two value signing, perhaps even more than that.

Right now we have question marks at QB, HB, LG, RT, TE, DT, DE, OLB, ILB, S - and maybe even CB. Id expect us to address at least one O-line position and either the d-line and/or a linebacker before the draft. But right now, we are a worse team than we were last season, and that is a scary thought...

cstyle42
03-15-2014, 09:37 AM
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.


QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
TE - Brandon Myers from NYG

The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.


Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.
Guys want to play for Lovie Smith... Bill O'Brien is a big unknown.

IDEXAN
03-15-2014, 09:38 AM
I count atleast 5 vet starters who've they've not kept when they probably could have retained most if not all of them, so yea, we are rebuilding and looking towards the longer term. The most interesting feature of their personnel decisions so far IMO is the apparent retention of the entire starting defensive secondary.

infantrycak
03-15-2014, 09:43 AM
Guys want to play for Lovie Smith... Bill O'Brien is a big unknown.

I think that plays a tiny role in free agency as do many factors fans mention.

It's more like:
Money



















Contender

System

Location

Coach/friends
Everything else.

Goldensilence
03-15-2014, 09:52 AM
We're definitely in a rebuild, only someone in denial would think otherwise. I know for an owner might not like to say it, but sometimes fans welcome it.

What bothers me the most this offseason isn't that we're not going on a FA bonanza, it's the near complete lack of activity by this FO. A 2-14 team and the biggest "acquisition" is retaining a second string TE after cutting a former pro bowler TE. Not necessarily arguing for keeping OD but we didn't get significant cap savings or get better.

I'm not sure what the FO is looking at or waiting on.

beerlover
03-15-2014, 10:03 AM
We're definitely in a rebuild, only someone in denial would think otherwise. I know for an owner might not like to say it, but sometimes fans welcome it.

What bothers me the most this offseason isn't that we're not going on a FA bonanza, it's the near complete lack of activity by this FO. A 2-14 team and the biggest "acquisition" is retaining a second string TE after cutting a former pro bowler TE. Not necessarily arguing for keeping OD but we didn't get significant cap savings or get better.

I'm not sure what the FO is looking at or waiting on.

cap space/draft - expect them to also hit undrafted market hard post draft while trying to retain young cornerstone players who fit scheme/locker room under O'Brian.

Goldensilence
03-15-2014, 10:17 AM
cap space/draft - expect them to also hit undrafted market hard post draft while trying to retain young cornerstone players who fit scheme/locker room under O'Brian.

They'll be some nice cap space after this team cuts Schaub, I doubt even with rumors flying about Oakland looking hard at Sanchez or Schaub with his contract it'll be feasible.

I sure as hell hope O'Brien and the new staff has a better clue what they're doing via the draft more than Kubiak. They can't defend completely on the draft to reasonably plug some of the holes in this roster.

Value shopping post draft? I got a bad feeling about this coming season if this is the case. The silver lining might be letting go of Rock Smith too.

bah007
03-15-2014, 10:17 AM
LOL I wouldn't exactly look at TB as a model to follow. Recently, they've consistently been big spenders in FA. And they may have actually lost more games than they were before.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. You build through the draft and you complement those pieces through FA. Every single successful franchise does this. Every single one.

Why hamstring yourself with FA signings who you will have to overpay for? Especially when the cap situation you inherited is far from ideal. Wait it out and find the bargains. Then fill your holes in the draft.

We'll be more active in FA next year after the coaches have had a year to see where the current group of players fit the system. But I would still be surprised to see this regime become big spenders.

thunderkyss
03-15-2014, 10:18 AM
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.


QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
TE - Brandon Myers from NYG


Thanks Obi, that illustrates my point exactly.

We're not rebuilding. Tampa Bay is.

bah007
03-15-2014, 10:20 AM
They'll be some nice cap space after this team cuts Schaub, I doubt even with rumors flying about Oakland looking hard at Sanchez or Schaub with his contract it'll be feasible.

I sure as hell hope O'Brien and the new staff has a better clue what they're doing via the draft more than Kubiak. They can't defend completely on the draft to reasonably plug some of the holes in this roster.

Value shopping post draft? I got a bad feeling about this coming season if this is the case. The silver lining might be letting go of Rock Smith too.

I'd rather create a long term plan rather than go all in on turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team for one year. Let's take out all the garbage and eat all the dead money right now so we don't have to worry about it later.

I don't expect much this season. I expect an improved product but not a playoff team. Year two I have expectations.

djohn2oo8
03-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Some of you pessimistic people make me laugh. So far, they let go of Mitchell, Sharpton, Daniels, Smith, McCain. They got rid of more negatives than positives, as Sharpton, McCain, and Mitchell were all useless. Smith can be replaced, as can Daniels, he is no longer the pro bowl TE we all once knew. It was time for younger talent, and they need to be able to draft instead of going out and make a signing they probably will regret (See. Ed Reed. )

thunderkyss
03-15-2014, 11:28 AM
I'd rather create a long term plan rather than go all in on turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team for one year. Let's take out all the garbage and eat all the dead money right now so we don't have to worry about it later.

What dead money do you speak of? The only players with significant dead money is Andre, Schaub, Jjo, DBrown, Cushing & Arian. All of them signed through 2016 with the exception of Jjo.

Maybe we're using the words differently, but you can't "eat" all the dead money, unless you cut the players. Otherwise, you're pushing their dead money into the next season.

Do you think we should cut Andre, Schaub, Jjo, DBrown, Cush, or Arian?

If not, if you think most of the people on that list is part of the future of the Houston Texans, we're retooling, not rebuilding.

steelbtexan
03-15-2014, 11:58 AM
Who is this we you speak of?

This is BoB McNair's team and there lies the problem.

McNair/Slick should be rebuilding and that may require another terrible yr to get out of cap hell. Not that that is a bad thing. Next yrs QB class is strong.

LikeMike
03-15-2014, 11:59 AM
Some of you pessimistic people make me laugh. So far, they let go of Mitchell, Sharpton, Daniels, Smith, McCain. They got rid of more negatives than positives, as Sharpton, McCain, and Mitchell were all useless. Smith can be replaced, as can Daniels, he is no longer the pro bowl TE we all once knew. It was time for younger talent, and they need to be able to draft instead of going out and make a signing they probably will regret (See. Ed Reed. )

Its not about the players we cut - I can live with every cut. And its not about us not signing Peppers or Ware. Its about us cutting starters and not signing anybody.

We can`t fill all these holes in the draft. Not even close. We can count on 2-3 starters. 5 if were lucky. How many do we need? Id say about 10. I am not saying we should`ve signed 7 guys. I am saying we shouldve tried to get some players that just got out of their rookie contract - players that still have 5 good years left in them. Not 7, but perhaps 2-3, just to make the draft easier and to minimize the holes we have.

Texian
03-15-2014, 12:00 PM
Thanks Obi, that illustrates my point exactly.

We're not rebuilding. Tampa Bay is.

The difference being that Tampa has the salary cap space to rebuild and the Texans DO NOT.

djohn2oo8
03-15-2014, 12:03 PM
Its not about the players we cut - I can live with every cut. And its not about us not signing Peppers or Ware. Its about us cutting starters and not signing anybody.

We can`t fill all these holes in the draft. Not even close. We can count on 2-3 starters. 5 if were lucky. How many do we need? Id say about 10. I am not saying we should`ve signed 7 guys. I am saying we shouldve tried to get some players that just got out of their rookie contract - players that still have 5 good years left in them. Not 7, but perhaps 2-3, just to make the draft easier and to minimize the holes we have.

They were 2-14, they aren't going to spend much money on players who won't be here long term, and would barely make an impact. You draft, then fill the remaining holes in FA.

MistaRed
03-15-2014, 12:04 PM
Yes we are. Contrary to Mr. Mcnair and his beliefs. I don't have faith in Rick Smith to have a killer draft.

markn
03-15-2014, 12:23 PM
We'll never do it because McNair is in denial thinking we're a contender, but I think the best thing for this team to do to become good quickly is to write-off the upcoming season.

Take all the cap hits now to put ourselves in better position for FAs in 2015, trade our 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks for a combination of more mid round picks in 2014 and future picks in 2015. Fill some holes and build depth with mid round picks this year, start Keenum and tank the season. That would leave a mega draft in 2015 (draft or trade for Winston), and cap space for free agents that year as well as room for jj's new contract.

Oh, and fire Rick Smith.

It's probably dumb, and practically unheard of in the nfl, and I'm probably playing fantasy GM, so flame away!

LikeMike
03-15-2014, 12:31 PM
They were 2-14, they aren't going to spend much money on players who won't be here long term, and would barely make an impact. You draft, then fill the remaining holes in FA.

That`s what I meant with "take players after their rookie contracts are over so they have 5 more good years left in them."

Our roster was a lot better than 2-14. It was a QB that was imploding, one of the worst kicking performances maybe in the history of the league and a coach that didn`t have a clue how to turn it around. 2 years ago we advanced in the playoffs. We have great players. And we did build through the draft. Most of our best players were drafted by us.

Great teams build a foundation in the draft and complement it with great FA - like we did when we signed Manning and Joseph.

Corrosion
03-15-2014, 12:47 PM
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.


QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
TE - Brandon Myers from NYG

The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.


Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.



I really believe the lack of activity in FA means they realize the coming season isn't one in which they compete and because of that , there is little reason to spend in an inflated FA market especially while they are already up against the cap with big money due next year to JJ Watt.

The goals this season are pretty clear : clean up the cap , develop a QB and get their rookie HC some OTJT.

texanhead08
03-15-2014, 01:40 PM
I don't see more than 6 wins max out of this team and thats a huge if we find a competent QB. The front office needs to hit home runs on every draft choice and even that won't fixc all the holes on this team with as little cap space as we have.

djohn2oo8
03-15-2014, 01:43 PM
Why are people saying no more than 6 wins? A huge problem last year was the offense being figured out.

houstonspartan
03-15-2014, 01:50 PM
According to Bob McNair, while in the middle of his temper tantrum in the midst of firing Gary Kubiak he stated a couple of times that the Texans were a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. He also said categorically that the Texans were NOT rebuilding. That should tell you all you need to know. (Bob is in denial)

We are re-building because YOUR BOY Gary Kubiak left this team is such a sad state that we have no choice.

And, shame on you for describing McNair's as having a "temper tantrum." That infantiles a man who was more than patient with his loser head coach, and took a lot of heat over the years for decisions made by said head coach.

infantrycak
03-15-2014, 02:01 PM
Why are people saying no more than 6 wins? A huge problem last year was the offense being figured out.

Shhhh, don't let those dummies up in Baltimore in on your little secret.

Number19
03-15-2014, 02:27 PM
I say it's half & half. Offensively, we're re-tooling. We'll have a new offensive scheme and philosophy, but with a few additions, we'll be able to use our current personnel as the core of our new offense.

The key, here, will be the QB and his ability to execute OB's complicated scheme. IMO, OB will prefer to go with a proven veteran QB who has the ability to read defenses and make the correct calls at the line of scrimmage. This is the reason there is a reasonable chance that Schaub could be our starter next season. But, going with past history, Schaub could possibly be traded only after we sign or draft another QB who can start. If we go with a rookie draft choice, we'll likely be under .500. A veteran QB, including Schaub, improves our chances to be above .500.

Defensively, because we have a new defensive scheme, and because our current personnel does not fit well, we are more in a re-building mode. On this side of the ball, we need new starters at SOLB, NT, weak side DE, ILB next to Cushing; and we need a Safety and a CB.

Despite the need for more starters on defense, the draft gives us the opportunity to address these needs.

EllisUnit
03-15-2014, 03:17 PM
If the Jaguars were 2-14 last year, fired their entire coaching staff and had huge questions at defensive line, linebacker, QB, running back and offensive line, what would you say about them? Would they be rebuilding?

Yes indeed we are in full rebuild mode. There's no two ways about it.

What had the Jags done the 2 previous years though ??? Yeah that was a bad comparison !

Texian
03-15-2014, 03:46 PM
We are re-building because YOUR BOY Gary Kubiak left this team is such a sad state that we have no choice.

And, shame on you for describing McNair's as having a "temper tantrum." That infantiles a man who was more than patient with his loser head coach, and took a lot of heat over the years for decisions made by said head coach.

Bob McNair is a dadgum genius when it comes to building energy companies and horse farms. When it comes to building an NFL football team Bob knows less than Jerry Jones. :)

Wolf6151
03-15-2014, 04:27 PM
Anyone looking for a K.C. type of turnaround is either not paying attention or fooling themselves. This is absolutely a rebuild process that will take 2-3 yrs. to complete. I think next year will be an 8-8 record at best. Though I would love for the Texans to prove me wrong.

Vance87
03-15-2014, 04:29 PM
I don't think 8 wins is out of the question, the AFC isn't exactly a murderer's row, and the NFC East is in complete upheaval.

Goldensilence
03-15-2014, 04:39 PM
I'd rather create a long term plan rather than go all in on turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team for one year. Let's take out all the garbage and eat all the dead money right now so we don't have to worry about it later.

I don't expect much this season. I expect an improved product but not a playoff team. Year two I have expectations.

I agree. I'm not saying go all in FA, but I have real concerns about the history of this organization and developing talent and keeping it in house. I do hope a lot that this staff does a much better job of it. If the FO really wants to build through the draft, gotta get better at the draft.

Some of you pessimistic people make me laugh. So far, they let go of Mitchell, Sharpton, Daniels, Smith, McCain. They got rid of more negatives than positives, as Sharpton, McCain, and Mitchell were all useless. Smith can be replaced, as can Daniels, he is no longer the pro bowl TE we all once knew. It was time for younger talent, and they need to be able to draft instead of going out and make a signing they probably will regret (See. Ed Reed. )

Either way you slice it, Mitchell was a start, Smith was a quality starter, McCain was the Nickelback, Daniel was a productive starter, Sharpton saw significant playing time. You might not think too highly, but that's production the team currently doesn't really have on roster to replace.

Reed was a gamble, but the FO had it right in terms of a vet who they felt like might he the missing piece on what felt like a team close to getting over the hump. That's what you're supposed to do.

Not saying we should be going on a TB spending spree or toss out large money deals. But, there's been some quiet signings that would've made sense. McFadden went back to Oakland on A cheap deal, with Rate all but gone value deal there. B.S. Taking went back to GB on a one year deal. Hicks took a one year flyer to go to Indy. I'm just saying these are the kind of deals that bridge time for the draftees to develop.

drs23
03-15-2014, 05:39 PM
Who is this we you speak of?

This is BoB McNair's team and there lies the problem.

McNair/Slick should be rebuilding and that may require another terrible yr to get out of cap hell. Not that that is a bad thing. Next yrs QB class is strong.

But steelb, with all due respect, you said the same thing last year and now that last year is this year all the QBs suck. Who's to say the same won't happen again?

Just axin'.

ObsiWan
03-15-2014, 06:03 PM
I agree. I'm not saying go all in FA, but I have real concerns about the history of this organization and developing talent and keeping it in house. I do hope a lot that this staff does a much better job of it. If the FO really wants to build through the draft, gotta get better at the draft.


We'll see.
The offense will be brand new and the guys installing and implementing it are mostly new to the NFL.

The defensive side has some history and with the retention of Kollar, a little bit of continuity.

Personally, I don't think Rick Smith actually picked the players that were drafted. He and his scouting team complied a list of prospects based on what he knew Kubiak and Wade wanted to execute the offense and defense, respectively. Then Wade and Gary ranked those players from "most desired" to "he'll do" and Smith made picks accordingly.

To expect the scouting staff and Rick Smith to know what kind of players O'Brien and Crennel want to make their offense/defense be successful without ever seeing it is hopeful at best, IMO.

So this year is shaky because the parts of the team responsible for selecting all the right players for the respective schemes are just getting to know each other.

Side Note:
For those who wonder why Rick Smith is still here, ask yourself who would O'Brien have wanted in that job? Unless you can point to someone - with GM experience - who's worked with O'Brien and knows what he looks for in players, then there's no advantage to firing Rick Smith.
Flame away.

Corrosion
03-15-2014, 06:14 PM
Why are people saying no more than 6 wins? A huge problem last year was the offense being figured out.

That offense still got Andre Johnson .... so open (on many occasions) that no one was within 15 yards of him. How the hell do multiple defenders lose that guy ?! ..... Oh , the offensive scheme ....

The offense works when you execute it , they didn't have the talent to execute it.

RT , RG , LG .... fail.

RB at times had Tate playing with broken ribs or street FA's toting the rock .... FAIL.


QB ..... EPIC f'ing Fail.

htowntexans1985
03-15-2014, 06:20 PM
I see the next 2 years being a big suck fest. We just don't have the talent on offense to hang with the high powered teams of today. Our defense struggles with the pass. Only one I have any confidence in is watt. And without any splash in FA, we're looking at a bunch of rookies starting week 1. Which isn't very promising. Get ready for another below .500 season fellas.

Uncle Rico
03-15-2014, 07:23 PM
Allowing Smith and Tate walk for pennies on the dollar should answer OP's question. It's a firesale and I doubt they are finished.

ObsiWan
03-15-2014, 07:23 PM
LOL I wouldn't exactly look at TB as a model to follow. Recently, they've consistently been big spenders in FA. And they may have actually lost more games than they were before.
I would chalk up last year's failures to the HC/QB circus they had. Lovie will bring some sanity and stability. And I think they have to make moves given that their division has three studs at QB in Matty Ryan, Drew Brees, and Cam Newton. They don't really have time to wait on youngsters to develop if they want to stay halfway competitive. I think they have to spend.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. You build through the draft and you complement those pieces through FA. Every single successful franchise does this. Every single one.

Why hamstring yourself with FA signings who you will have to overpay for? Especially when the cap situation you inherited is far from ideal. Wait it out and find the bargains. Then fill your holes in the draft.

We'll be more active in FA next year after the coaches have had a year to see where the current group of players fit the system. But I would still be surprised to see this regime become big spenders.
I pretty much agree with this philosophy. And I believe that the bolded answers the "are we rebuilding" question "Yes we are" if it isn't clear for you). The coaches need at least training camp and preseason to see where the holes are and the scouting team needs to get that input to see who's out in the college and next year's F/A group that might fit (and that we can afford). In fact, they may need a whole season to get all these ducks in a row.

djohn2oo8
03-15-2014, 07:35 PM
That offense still got Andre Johnson .... so open (on many occasions) that no one was within 15 yards of him. How the hell do multiple defenders lose that guy ?! ..... Oh , the offensive scheme ....

The offense works when you execute it , they didn't have the talent to execute it.

RT , RG , LG .... fail.

RB at times had Tate playing with broken ribs or street FA's toting the rock .... FAIL.


QB ..... EPIC f'ing Fail.

What happened when the running game wasn't working? Who was open then? It was amazing how the line went from protecting Schaub to not protecting Keenum. Kubiak could not adjust, or did not to when they blitzed Keenum, which made them predictable. First play of every single game was playaction, don't tell me that the offense wasn't predictable.

Texan_Bill
03-15-2014, 07:51 PM
Hey Rob work ethic and character were bigger issues).

Some of that was from supposed leadership.

That said, I think there was great men in leadership positions that were not inherently leaders. I wish your relative "all the best" and unfortunately for the Texans he will. He will succeed in his new duties which should be scary for the rest of the AFC!


**************

As an aside Rob, I would like to have dinner with you, Chris et al like we did at the seafood restaurant. I had a killer time.

keyser
03-15-2014, 07:54 PM
This post might get to be a little long. I'm posting it mainly so that someone out there can disagree with me, and hopefully make me a bit more optimistic about the future. Basically, as time has gone on (basically since the O'Brien hire), I've been getting more and more pessimistic about the future for the Texans.

When we hit the end of the season, I was actually optimistic. I saw our team as one with good potential (I really thought we were playoff bound at the beginning of last year). I saw the coaching change as addressing the biggest problem we were facing. And, with the #1 pick in the draft and a set of QB prospects that looked good, I thought we were on our way to fixing our biggest player weakness (QB) and would have some good draft picks with which to plug some other holes.

Since then, what I've seen is:
1) We've lost lots of people in Free Agency. Except for Antonio Smith, I don't really care about most of them, specifically, but we've now got more holes to fill.
2) We have yet to bring in anyone new in FA. I wasn't really expecting much, but it seems that there's nothing but an outflow of players. I'd like to see someone brought in just to make it seem like this team has a clue in what direction it wants to go. Sitting by mostly passively during FA makes it seem like there's no real direction.
3) Meanwhile, I feel like the draft options are getting worse and worse. Rather than one of the QBs like Bridgewater or Manziel establishing himself as a clear number 1 option, they have kind of faded in the discussion. Now in the discussions we get players like Clowney (who I think of mainly as a guy who has talent but was easily shut down, and seemed to take plenty of plays off), or Bortles (not impressive to me as a player, and not sure why he's so high in the discusison now), or Mack (I don't like the idea of having to go LB at #1 overall, since it seems you can often get good LBs later on...). While I used to be pumped up about the #1 overall pick, I'm now finding I hope we trade out or something, since no one strikes me as someone worthy of the pick.
4) I don't really care whether our coaching staff is super-talkative (in fact, probably better that they aren't), but I'd like some reassurance that they have some direction they are heading in. I wasn't that excited about O'Brien, but I know we needed a change, and I'm happy to give him a chance. But, I'd like to know something about his plans in a broad sense - i.e. does he plan to blow up the old team, or does he think this one just nees a few key parts, or what. Part of my concern here is that I felt like the team needed fixing, but it seems the staff might be treating it as a complete rebuild or something.

Thorn
03-15-2014, 07:59 PM
Woh there hoss, it's a little early for depression to set in. Let's give the rgime change a tad longer. We are supposed to have a super duper head coach and a certified DC and some good draft picks.

infantrycak
03-15-2014, 07:59 PM
What happened when the running game wasn't working? Who was open then?

The same people.

It was amazing how the line went from protecting Schaub to not protecting Keenum.

It's amazing because it didn't happen. The difference was Schaub was better at seeing the D and getting rid of the ball.

Kubiak could not adjust, or did not to when they blitzed Keenum, which made them predictable. First play of every single game was playaction, don't tell me that the offense wasn't predictable.

Well since not even close to the first play of every game was playaction apparently the playcalling wasn't predictable even with hindsight. The #2 GM in the league, #1 actual GM since they stuck Belichick in #1 just disagreed with you and hired Kubiak who had other suitors as well. The league disagrees with you.

JRingo
03-15-2014, 08:01 PM
I think we are in a total rebuild mode. I believe O'Brien will trade our first and second for multiple picks a la the Pats. Maybe we will be able to compete in a couple of years. Just my opinion.

Number19
03-15-2014, 08:21 PM
...It's amazing because it didn't happen. The difference was Schaub was better at seeing the D and getting rid of the ball...I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but Kubiak had Keenum working from under center (this was after he came back from his mini-stroke) and Keenum was under constant pressure from the blitz. When Kubiak made the decision to replace Keenum and brought Schaub back in, he had Schaub working from the pistol or shotgun formation, which has an advantage in reacting to the blitz.

infantrycak
03-15-2014, 08:28 PM
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but Kubiak had Keenum working from under center (this was after he came back from his mini-stroke) and Keenum was under constant pressure from the blitz. When Kubiak made the decision to replace Keenum and brought Schaub back in, he had Schaub working from the pistol or shotgun formation, which has an advantage in reacting to the blitz.

Schaub was under center for 39.7% of attempts.
Keenum was under center for 24.5% of attempts.

TheMatrix31
03-15-2014, 08:31 PM
I don't think we're rebuilding. Most people should realize that last year's failures were pretty flukey. We had terrible coaching and QB/OL play but lost so many games by 7 or less. Losing close games is mostly a preparation/execution issue, and execution can be fixed with new coaching. Well, hopefully. Not to mention all the injuries again. Depth was terrible, and if you're hell-bent on three straight years of catastrophic injuries, you better ****ing have good depth.

The team made the playoffs two years straight before then. I don't think the bottom fell out just like that and oh no, we just have to rebuild again. That just makes no sense. I think it was just fluke failure. Atlanta too.

Both teams will be fine. I expect us to contend for the South if we can find some semblance of luck in the health department.

Goldensilence
03-15-2014, 08:40 PM
We'll see.
The offense will be brand new and the guys installing and implementing it are mostly new to the NFL.

The defensive side has some history and with the retention of Kollar, a little bit of continuity.

Personally, I don't think Rick Smith actually picked the players that were drafted. He and his scouting team complied a list of prospects based on what he knew Kubiak and Wade wanted to execute the offense and defense, respectively. Then Wade and Gary ranked those players from "most desired" to "he'll do" and Smith made picks accordingly.

To expect the scouting staff and Rick Smith to know what kind of players O'Brien and Crennel want to make their offense/defense be successful without ever seeing it is hopeful at best, IMO.

So this year is shaky because the parts of the team responsible for selecting all the right players for the respective schemes are just getting to know each other.

Side Note:
For those who wonder why Rick Smith is still here, ask yourself who would O'Brien have wanted in that job? Unless you can point to someone - with GM experience - who's worked with O'Brien and knows what he looks for in players, then there's no advantage to firing Rick Smith.
Flame away.

Big hope is that at the end of the day for me that Gary was pulling the strings in the draft and scouting. Hopefully, with Gary gone the draft, his now removed scout team, and the staff developing picks will be better. We won't ve able to tell this year obviously.

I don't think O'Brien wanted nor deserved a gm\coach position That's not even what I'm implying. Big question is who had the ultimate call on picks and if Rick pinned that bad history on Gary.

Not sure what you mean in not saying there's an advantage with someone at management level who knows what O'Brien is looking for vs Smith. Either way we're not sure who works better with who, but we do know Smith has had questionable drafts. Just matters on who gets credit or blame.

Either way, I'd hope Smith understands him keeping his job moving forward is DIRECTLY correlated to OB's success. Not a good start to the off season for a team coming off a 2-14 season.

I think we are in a total rebuild mode. I believe O'Brien will trade our first and second for multiple picks a la the Pats. Maybe we will be able to compete in a couple of years. Just my opinion.

Any hope we had of trading out of 1st pick almost rested solely on Clowney blowing the combine out of water. Didn't happen. There's pretty much no way the FO is moving out of 1.1. However, there's going to likely be great value at 2.1.

Number19
03-15-2014, 09:11 PM
Schaub was under center for 39.7% of attempts.
Keenum was under center for 24.5% of attempts.Are these numbers for the whole season? I would like to see the numbers for just the last four games of the season - the last two games started by Keenum and the final two games of the season started by Schaub.

Keenum's last games was when I asked myself the question, why wasn't Keenum operating out of the shotgun more to counter the blitz; this was also when I had the thought that it seemed Keenum was playing a different game from his earlier ones.

And when Schaub started the final two games was when I thought I noticed he was operating almost exclusively from the shotgun. Certainly this was true for the several consecutive series when this thought hit me.

(edit) It just now occurred to me that these four games were after Kubiak was fired. I wish I had recorded these games.

Number19
03-15-2014, 09:17 PM
...Personally, I don't think Rick Smith actually picked the players that were drafted. He and his scouting team complied a list of prospects based on what he knew Kubiak and Wade wanted to execute the offense and defense, respectively. Then Wade and Gary ranked those players from "most desired" to "he'll do" and Smith made picks accordingly....
I just now noticed this little bit of a news item from November:
...Kubiak isn't expected to work a full day after suffering a mini-stroke on Nov. 3, but Rapoport noted Sunday that the longtime coach is anxious to get back to business amid whispers that Houston's front office is "a bit frustrated" with Kubiak and his assistants.

That frustration channels from the coaching staff holding too much sway over the draft process ... http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000280291/article/gary-kubiak-returns-to-texans-following-ministroke

ObsiWan
03-15-2014, 09:23 PM
Not sure what you mean in not saying there's an advantage with someone at management level who knows what O'Brien is looking for vs Smith. Maybe I phrased it poorly but that's exactly what I meant. There would have been a definite advantage to hiring a new GM if he had previously worked with O'Brien to know what sort of players he (O'Brien) liked. My guess is that there wasn't a guy with that background available when they were looking. So Rick Smith got to stay.

infantrycak
03-15-2014, 09:37 PM
Are these numbers for the whole season?

The stats were overall and my statement was overall. I'll go further though and say Brown and Brooks improved as the season went on so Keenum had better protection from them. In any event, I think the assertion the OL protected Schaub better is incorrect.

In Keenum's first start he was sacked 5 times.

In the two split games I am not sure of the point because Schaub came in to run a faster paced offense to catch up so yes he was in shotgun almost the whole time but then again the D had their ears pinned back as well. But anyway...

Jaguars Keenum shotgun 21/29 72.5% sacked 2, Schaub sacked 0.
Oakland Keenum shotgun 18/24 75% sacked 1, Schaub sacked 2.

thunderkyss
03-15-2014, 10:08 PM
Cap Hell

$15.6M . Andre Johnson
$14.4M . Matt Schaub
$11.2M . Johnathan Joseph
$8.50M . Duane Brown
$8.50M . Arian Foster
$7.00M . Chris Myers
$6.00M . Danieal Manning
$5.30M . Brian Cushing
$4.30M . Kareem Jackson
$3.60M . Jj Watt



$84.4M for ten players. That's why we're in cap hell. We've got good players & we pay them like they're good players. We may not like them any more, but at one time... We think/thought Andre was/is the best WR in the league. We believe(d) Duane Brown was/is among the best LTs in the league. At one time, we thought it was imperative that we lock Cushing up long term. We were ecstatic when Rick Smith reached out into FA & plucked Jjo & DMann off the market.

... & we want to make Jj Watt the highest paid defensive player in the league.

We've got $49M (or so) to sign the other 43 players that make up the roster.

Goldensilence
03-15-2014, 10:18 PM
Maybe I phrased it poorly but that's exactly what I meant. There would have been a definite advantage to hiring a new GM if he had previously worked with O'Brien to know what sort of players he (O'Brien) liked. My guess is that there wasn't a guy with that background available when they were looking. So Rick Smith got to stay.

Personally, I think it's a straw man to assert the only way a new GM should've been hired if and only if, they worked with O'Brien(who has no previous HC experience in NFL or lengthy successfull college experience).

The known piece here is Smith. Not saying make a change here for sake of making a change, more so asking when it comes down to it why have him stay?,Only really way he stays is if you believe Kubiak made bulk,of personnel calls and Smith gave him options.

Corrosion
03-15-2014, 10:22 PM
What happened when the running game wasn't working? Who was open then? It was amazing how the line went from protecting Schaub to not protecting Keenum. Kubiak could not adjust, or did not to when they blitzed Keenum, which made them predictable. First play of every single game was playaction, don't tell me that the offense wasn't predictable.

You know much of the issue with pass rush , blitzes and pressure was Keenum's fault. He didn't recognize where pressure was coming from pre snap and failed to call proper protection schemes.

The second half of the KC game is a prime example of that - They didn't even technically blitz , they overloaded from one side or the other while the opposite defenders fell into coverage - Something that most solid QB's can exploit with a quick pass .... Keenum got his ass handed to him.

Its easy to blame the coach or the scheme .. but ultimately its the talent on the field that scores TD's & throws INT's.

I'm laughing my ass off at the comments about Obrien's scheme being so "complicated" .... Its no more complex than the one the last coach ran and in fact its not a whole lot different.
In many situations , it is much simpler than what Kubiak operated where receivers had several different routes & combinations of routes to run based off of what specific defenders did on any given play , all while making everything appear identical to any other play from set up to beyond the snap of the ball with play action.

That offense was good enough year before last to be a top 5 in damn near every category ..... with a QB who was very limited physically and playing with injuries.
Blame the coach , not the noodle armed statue of a QB with sh!t for protection ..... or the UDFA QB with sh!t for protection , who couldn't read a defense .... and disregard the results generated with a healthy noodle armed statue of a QB with solid protection. Also forget about the back to back division championships and a playoff win with a 5th round rookie QB. Blame the system ....


Hey Rob

Some of that was from supposed leadership.

You know , I hear it from the horses mouth .... not from the made up world of John McLame.

Had a conversation with .... Bob a while back. He really likes Johnny Football.

That said, I think there was great men in leadership positions that were not inherently leaders. I wish your relative "all the best" and unfortunately for the Texans he will. He will succeed in his new duties which should be scary for the rest of the AFC!


To be quite honest , I'm glad he's no longer with the Texans .... I just get tired of people blaming the wrong people for failures of specific individuals.



As an aside Rob, I would like to have dinner with you, Chris et al like we did at the seafood restaurant. I had a killer time.



Yeah , we need to do that again soon. Haven't talked to Dave in a while but I'm sure he'd go given notice. I'll make a post in the "No Sports Talk Allowed" section in the next couple days and see if we can set something up .... before Chris runs away to California Texas.

Corrosion
03-15-2014, 10:38 PM
Maybe I phrased it poorly but that's exactly what I meant. There would have been a definite advantage to hiring a new GM if he had previously worked with O'Brien to know what sort of players he (O'Brien) liked. My guess is that there wasn't a guy with that background available when they were looking. So Rick Smith got to stay.

That's nowhere near the truth .... McNair really believed this team was better than it is and that's why Smith kept his job. Its not. I bet in hindsight , he'd have fired them both.
This team is an absolute disaster at a multitude of positions , with the most important position (QB) being one of them ..... and Rick is responsible for that contract , tho I do give him credit for making it easy to walk away from this season or beyond.

After last years draft (among the many other draft mistakes), I'm afraid to give him another draft to screw up .... After Swearinger & Hopkins , no one contributed sh!t.

The 2012 team got by on the strength of their veteran stars with a little help from the rest of the roster , this past season those veteran stars couldn't do enough to overcome the weaknesses throughout the rest of the roster.

QB - broken & bad
RG - wet behind the ears with potential.
RT - Pathetic
LG - Washed up
RB - Injured , injured and who the hell is blocking anyway ?!
TE - Injuries.

DT - Sub par & ill suited for a 34
OLB - Disappointing on both sides
ILB - Injuries & Joe Mays ?!
CB - Injured JJo , McCain sucks. K Jax played relatively well.
SS - Injured , I thought Keo played pretty well even if he is limited physically.
FS - Rookie mistakes


Special teams .... One WTF moment after another.

On offense I didn't mention WR , C and LT. On defense , I didn't mention DE , now one of those guys is in Oakland. Count the holes this team needs to fill to be competitive ... and then realize that plugging in a rookie QB pretty much guarantee's we don't sniff the playoffs.

PapaL
03-15-2014, 11:18 PM
Granted we have holes however so does every other team. Seahawks WRs were ok at best. Broncos OL was suspect.

The Pencil Neck
03-15-2014, 11:30 PM
That's nowhere near the truth .... McNair really believed this team was better than it is and that's why Smith kept his job. Its not. I bet in hindsight , he'd have fired them both.

What I remember hearing at the time of Kubiak's firing was that one of the big things Smith wanted more power over was the draft. One of the big things I remember hearing (although I don't recall where I read it) was Smith doing a "See, I told you so" about the WRs that were drafted two years ago. Smith didn't want Posey, he wanted TY Hilton and he got over-ruled.

Now. I believe that McNair was there in the war room and in the meeting rooms prior to the draft. I think he knows which guys Smith wanted to draft vs. the guys that Kubiak and the other coaches wanted to take.

His keeping Smith might be a way of saying that we would have had a better team if Smith had more control in the draft. I don't know.

When it comes to free agency this year, my brain keeps telling me that we're playing it smart and that we'll find some guys that are going to fill some of these holes and that they're going to be guys that OB and RAC like. But my heart is getting pounded right now. I want to see us do something. I want to see us pull some rabbits out of some hats and start to put together a team that can make it to the play-offs and do some damage.

The Pencil Neck
03-15-2014, 11:31 PM
Granted we have holes however so does every other team. Seahawks WRs were ok at best. Broncos OL was suspect.

Remember a couple of years ago when the Seahawks didn't have any DBs? They fixed that. Hopefully, we can fix our holes this offseason.

But.

To do that.

You've got to make some moves at some point.

Corrosion
03-15-2014, 11:43 PM
What I remember hearing at the time of Kubiak's firing was that one of the big things Smith wanted more power over was the draft. One of the big things I remember hearing (although I don't recall where I read it) was Smith doing a "See, I told you so" about the WRs that were drafted two years ago. Smith didn't want Posey, he wanted TY Hilton and he got over-ruled.


Don't believe everything you hear ....



When it comes to free agency this year, my brain keeps telling me that we're playing it smart and that we'll find some guys that are going to fill some of these holes and that they're going to be guys that OB and RAC like. But my heart is getting pounded right now. I want to see us do something. I want to see us pull some rabbits out of some hats and start to put together a team that can make it to the play-offs and do some damage.

Forget about it , you may as well resign yourself to the fact that this is a rebuilding year.

Unless they somehow pull a veteran starting QB out of their hats , this team isn't contending this season and I don't find that to be very likely at all.

Then you have a dozen other holes to fill .... because of the cap issues & hole at QB , its kinda silly to spend a lot of $$ on FA's. Before you start spending on high priced FA's , you need to be closer to your goals.

ObsiWan
03-16-2014, 12:40 AM
That's nowhere near the truth .... McNair really believed this team was better than it is and that's why Smith kept his job. Its not. I bet in hindsight , he'd have fired them both.
This team is an absolute disaster at a multitude of positions , with the most important position (QB) being one of them ..... and Rick is responsible for that contract , tho I do give him credit for making it easy to walk away from this season or beyond.

After last years draft (among the many other draft mistakes), I'm afraid to give him another draft to screw up .... After Swearinger & Hopkins , no one contributed sh!t.


McNair is in the draft room every draft and knows how the decision making goes. He knows who had the final say on each pick. And he fired those he thought responsible, the coaches.

Now if you say that makes Smith little more than a figurehead who does contracts and tries to make some draft day trades. No argument from me.

Edit: as for the rest of your post, that just shows we ARE rebuilding. I don't disagree with that either.

The Pencil Neck
03-16-2014, 01:00 AM
Forget about it , you may as well resign yourself to the fact that this is a rebuilding year.

Unless they somehow pull a veteran starting QB out of their hats , this team isn't contending this season and I don't find that to be very likely at all.

Then you have a dozen other holes to fill .... because of the cap issues & hole at QB , its kinda silly to spend a lot of $$ on FA's. Before you start spending on high priced FA's , you need to be closer to your goals.

Like I said, they have to pull some rabbits out of some hats to be able to put us in contention this year.

That, or maybe hire some hit-squads to go out and kill, main, or destroy the reputations of several of our competitors.

ObsiWan
03-16-2014, 01:29 AM
What I remember hearing at the time of Kubiak's firing was that one of the big things Smith wanted more power over was the draft. One of the big things I remember hearing (although I don't recall where I read it) was Smith doing a "See, I told you so" about the WRs that were drafted two years ago. Smith didn't want Posey, he wanted TY Hilton and he got over-ruled.

Now. I believe that McNair was there in the war room and in the meeting rooms prior to the draft. I think he knows which guys Smith wanted to draft vs. the guys that Kubiak and the other coaches wanted to take.

His keeping Smith might be a way of saying that we would have had a better team if Smith had more control in the draft. I don't know.

When it comes to free agency this year, my brain keeps telling me that we're playing it smart and that we'll find some guys that are going to fill some of these holes and that they're going to be guys that OB and RAC like. But my heart is getting pounded right now. I want to see us do something. I want to see us pull some rabbits out of some hats and start to put together a team that can make it to the play-offs and do some damage.

Remember when we drafted back and got Duane Brown? Remember the story Kubiak himself told that Rick Smith had one more trade back option and Kubiak yelled at him not to take it for fear they might miss Brown? If Smith was in control of the draft and all personnel moves then how does Kubiak have the power to veto a draft day move that would get the team an additional draft pick??

It's well understood how much of a control freak Kubiak is on game day; what makes you think draft day would be different?

Corrosion
03-16-2014, 02:24 AM
McNair is in the draft room every draft and knows how the decision making goes. He knows who had the final say on each pick. And he fired those he thought responsible, the coaches.

Now if you say that makes Smith little more than a figurehead who does contracts and tries to make some draft day trades. No argument from me.

Edit: as for the rest of your post, that just shows we ARE rebuilding. I don't disagree with that either.

Its pretty obvious that McNair believes we have more talent on this roster than we actually do .... and fired Gary for failing to get what he thought was a contender to contend. The expectations were sky high last season going in .... He's pretty much said exactly that with his expectations of a quick turn around. "We have a lot of talent."


I've got news for him ..... we don't have near as much talent as he thinks we do and this will not be a contender next season.


Remember when we drafted back and got Duane Brown? Remember the story Kubiak himself told that Rick Smith had one more trade back option and Kubiak yelled at him not to take it for fear they might miss Brown? If Smith was in control of the draft and all personnel moves then how does Kubiak have the power to veto a draft day move that would get the team an additional draft pick??

Can you blame him for wanting his guy there and arguing the point of missing out on him ? Brown has been :money:

That didn't mean Gary had more or less control over the draft than Smith , just that in that case he made his case , argued his point and got his guy.

Bottom line is that roster building is Smith's job .... he has to get guys that fit the description given by the coach. That hasn't changed with the new coaching staff.




It's well understood how much of a control freak Kubiak is on game day; what makes you think draft day would be different?

I really think that's a misconception. The QB has a lot of freedom to change plays , thing is that those changes are built into the play prior to the snap.
He can change from a run to a pass .... from the same set.
He can change a route or a combination of routes , he can change the protection based upon what he see's at the line. Many things can change while the appearance stays the same.

Many people assume "we don't call audibles" to mean we don't make adjustments , that's simply not true and has been argued and explained here several times in the past ..... but the myth lives on , mainly because Gary fell on the sword covering for Schaub after a pick six this season saying he couldn't change the play when in actuality he had several options available and didn't take advantage of them.

Rosenfels even explained this in an interview at one point saying how flexible & QB friendly this offense was.

Like I said, they have to pull some rabbits out of some hats to be able to put us in contention this year.

That, or maybe hire some hit-squads to go out and kill, main, or destroy the reputations of several of our competitors.

I have 19 rabbits in the back yard .... with 3 litters due next month. I'll help supply the rabbits to pull outa the hat .... but I don't think I have near enough.

http://rabbittalk.com/images/smilies/cz01.gif

Nitrofish
03-16-2014, 06:53 AM
What happened when the running game wasn't working? Who was open then? It was amazing how the line went from protecting Schaub to not protecting Keenum. Kubiak could not adjust, or did not to when they blitzed Keenum, which made them predictable. First play of every single game was playaction, don't tell me that the offense wasn't predictable.

The same people.

It's amazing because it didn't happen. The difference was Schaub was better at seeing the D and getting rid of the ball.

Well since not even close to the first play of every game was playaction apparently the playcalling wasn't predictable even with hindsight. The #2 GM in the league, #1 actual GM since they stuck Belichick in #1 just disagreed with you and hired Kubiak who had other suitors as well. The league disagrees with you.

Are these numbers for the whole season? I would like to see the numbers for just the last four games of the season - the last two games started by Keenum and the final two games of the season started by Schaub.

Keenum's last games was when I asked myself the question, why wasn't Keenum operating out of the shotgun more to counter the blitz; this was also when I had the thought that it seemed Keenum was playing a different game from his earlier ones.

And when Schaub started the final two games was when I thought I noticed he was operating almost exclusively from the shotgun. Certainly this was true for the several consecutive series when this thought hit me.

(edit) It just now occurred to me that these four games were after Kubiak was fired. I wish I had recorded these games.

Texans Opening Drive First Snaps 2013

Hou v SD (Schaub)
Pass Left (Tipped at line and Intercepted)

TENN v HOU (Schaub)
Hand off Foster Left side (10 Yard Gain)

HOU v BAL (Schaub)
Play Action pass to flat (OD Tackled for loss)

SEA v HOU (Schaub)
Hand Off Foster right side (1 yard gain)

HOU v SF (Schaub)
Hand off Tate left side (1 yard loss)

STL v HOU (Schaub)
Hand off Foster right side (18 yard gain)

HOU v KC (Keenum)
Play Action pass deep left to Graham (Dropped Ball - Incomplete)

IND v HOU (Keenum)
Pass from Pistol over middle to Foster (Incomplete)

HOU v AZ (Keenum)
Pass attempt from pistol (Strip/Fumble returned for AZ TD)

OAK v HOU (Keenum)
Play Action pass from pistol to flat (Johnson 3 yard loss)

JAC v HOU (Keenum)
Toss right to Tate (3 yard loss +15 yards penalty)

NE v HOU (Keenum)
Hand off tate left side (6 yard gain)

HOU v JAC (Keenum)
Hand off from pistol to tate middle (3 yard gain)

HOU v IND (Keenum)
Hand off tate right side (4 yard gain)

DEN v HOU (Schaub)
Hand off D. Johnson left side (4 yard gain)

HOU v TEN (Schaub)
Play action pass left to Johnson (5 yard gain)

LikeMike
03-16-2014, 07:51 AM
Cap Hell

$15.6M . Andre Johnson
$14.4M . Matt Schaub
$11.2M . Johnathan Joseph
$8.50M . Duane Brown
$8.50M . Arian Foster
$7.00M . Chris Myers
$6.00M . Danieal Manning
$5.30M . Brian Cushing
$4.30M . Kareem Jackson
$3.60M . Jj Watt



$84.4M for ten players. That's why we're in cap hell. We've got good players & we pay them like they're good players. We may not like them any more, but at one time... We think/thought Andre was/is the best WR in the league. We believe(d) Duane Brown was/is among the best LTs in the league. At one time, we thought it was imperative that we lock Cushing up long term. We were ecstatic when Rick Smith reached out into FA & plucked Jjo & DMann off the market.

... & we want to make Jj Watt the highest paid defensive player in the league.

We've got $49M (or so) to sign the other 43 players that make up the roster.

So you mean our problem is we have too many good players :kitten:.

I don`t really think that too many of these contracts are bad. Schaubs is obviously, JoJos might, if he can`t get back to form (but not nearly as bad as Schaub), Foster has health issues, other than that the contract is fair. Myers and Manning we`ll have to wait and see how they do under BoB. Id do the other contracts in a hardbeat.

I don`t think it is wrong to have 10 players taking up close to 2/3ds of our salary. The problem is these players underperforming or being injured and other players not being adequate at least. I actually believe that most teams have a similar salary structure (with a couple of big time players taking up most of the salary cap, and the rest of the team are players on their rookie salary and cheap signings).

If we`d have at least a mediocre RT last season and the Schaub from 2 seasons ago, I really believe we would`ve been a playoff team (and even one that could make the superbowl with a little luck).

Lucky
03-16-2014, 08:34 AM
I've got news for him ..... we don't have near as much talent as he thinks we do and this will not be a contender next season.


http://rabbittalk.com/images/smilies/cz01.gif

Who's to say? No one and I mean no one thought the 2013 Texans would be the worst team in the league. Is it likely the Texans contend? No, its unlikely. Especially not knowing who the get at QB and what they can get out of him. But I've seen too many crazy things happen in the NFL to make a blanket statement that a team won't contend. A lot crazier than the 2014 Texans becoming a contender.

infantrycak
03-16-2014, 08:54 AM
I don`t think it is wrong to have 10 players taking up close to 2/3ds of our salary. The problem is these players underperforming or being injured and other players not being adequate at least. I actually believe that most teams have a similar salary structure (with a couple of big time players taking up most of the salary cap, and the rest of the team are players on their rookie salary and cheap signings).

You are correct. The Texans are not grossly top heavy compared to teams with non-rookie contract QBs. Top 7 cap hits combined:

Texans $71

Patriots $67
Ravens $70
Steelers $70
Packers $65
Saints $65
Broncos $68
Giants $68

What is unusual is AJ and not because of what he is being paid but because of how much money has been pushed into this year in contract restructure accounting.* If his bonus money accounting were more normal the Texans would be right at mid pack with about $68.

* If you want to see an egregious example, Larry Fitzgerald's cap hit next year is $23.6 mil.

Who's to say? No one and I mean no one thought the 2013 Texans would be the worst team in the league. Is it likely the Texans contend? No, its unlikely. Especially not knowing who the get at QB and what they can get out of him. But I've seen too many crazy things happen in the NFL to make a blanket statement that a team won't contend. A lot crazier than the 2014 Texans becoming a contender.

Yup. The Texans had a very uncharacteristic drop. They could also have an uncharacteristic bounce. Especially since the chief cause of the drop is one position imploding.

ArlingtonTexan
03-16-2014, 08:58 AM
McNair is in the draft room every draft and knows how the decision making goes. He knows who had the final say on each pick. And he fired those he thought responsible, the coaches.

Now if you say that makes Smith little more than a figurehead who does contracts and tries to make some draft day trades. No argument from me.

Edit: as for the rest of your post, that just shows we ARE rebuilding. I don't disagree with that either.

I think one of the things that has been frustrating for fans is that we have not known for sure who is responsible. My understanding is that Kubiak had final say of player decisions, but did he merely use that as veto power or did he tell Smith what to do more than not.

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 09:30 AM
Granted we have holes however so does every other team.

More specifically... every team on our 2014 schedule has holes on their team. Most of them have more holes than we do.... yup, more than we do.

We don't have to be very good next year & still turn in a winning record. Cutting down on the turnovers, especially from the QB... improve in the red zone.... we'll win a lot of games in 2014.

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 09:38 AM
One of the big things I remember hearing (although I don't recall where I read it) was Smith doing a "See, I told you so" about the WRs that were drafted two years ago. Smith didn't want Posey, he wanted TY Hilton and he got over-ruled.


Well that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Hilton would still have been at least 3rd on our depth chart, maybe even 4th. I remember a lot of excitement around Keyshawn Martin picking up the play-book really quick, & being a pro.

Then it could have very well have been Hilton who blew his Achilles out in the last game of the season.

We still would have drafted DeAndre, Keyshawn would still be our #3... & Hilton would still be "potential" right now.

JB
03-16-2014, 09:57 AM
Well that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Hilton would still have been at least 3rd on our depth chart, maybe even 4th. I remember a lot of excitement around Keyshawn Martin picking up the play-book really quick, & being a pro.

Then it could have very well have been Hilton who blew his Achilles out in the last game of the season.

We still would have drafted DeAndre, Keyshawn would still be our #3... & Hilton would still be "potential" right now.

Where do you come up with this stuff? You really think that changing people would lead to the exact same results?

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 11:01 AM
Where do you come up with this stuff? You really think that changing people would lead to the exact same results?

Because Posey's issue isn't/wasn't a talent problem. It was an injury problem. We took a chance on him needing extra time to get into game shape & it appeared that gamble paid off, until he suffered another unrelated injury.

The way TPN put it, you'd think Hilton is a better talent than Posey & right now, we don't know that.

There is no guarantee that Hilton would have seen as much playing time as he did in Indy. Chances are that he wouldn't, buried behind the great Kevin Walter & we'd be crying about our lack of depth at the WR position with Hilton on the depth chart.

houstonspartan
03-16-2014, 12:00 PM
Bob McNair is a dadgum genius when it comes to building energy companies and horse farms. When it comes to building an NFL football team Bob knows less than Jerry Jones. :)


You're right. He gave a loser-ass coach 8 years. That was a massive mistake in his part. He fixed it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

The Pencil Neck
03-16-2014, 12:42 PM
Because Posey's issue isn't/wasn't a talent problem. It was an injury problem. We took a chance on him needing extra time to get into game shape & it appeared that gamble paid off, until he suffered another unrelated injury.

And his problem is STILL an injury problem.

TY Hilton came out as a rookie and he performed. Neither Posey nor Martin did. Remember how hard Kubiak & Schaub worked to get Martin into the mix at the beginning of that season? Do you remember all the quick slants Martin dropped? Hilton wasn't dropping passes; he was catching them. As a rookie, he responded better.

Sure. He could have been put into our offense and then suffered malaria and encephalitis and been a bust. But given his performance (and the fact that he ended up as the 2nd best receiver out of that draft class), he probably would have blossomed in our system as well because we saw that Martin was able to get opportunities.

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 01:22 PM
Sure. He could have been put into our offense and then suffered malaria and encephalitis and been a bust. But given his performance (and the fact that he ended up as the 2nd best receiver out of that draft class), he probably would have blossomed in our system as well because we saw that Martin was able to get opportunities.

Point taken. Still don't believe he was a better prospect than Posey. It's an injury problem, but not one he was likely to incur as it was totally unrelated to his previous injury.

Had he not been injured, Posey could have been what DeAndre was last season as I doubt we'd have drafted a WR in the first.

The Pencil Neck
03-16-2014, 01:49 PM
Point taken. Still don't believe he was a better prospect than Posey. It's an injury problem, but not one he was likely to incur as it was totally unrelated to his previous injury.

Had he not been injured, Posey could have been what DeAndre was last season as I doubt we'd have drafted a WR in the first.

Devier's talented but two years in and he has 21 receptions; T.Y. Hilton has 132.

DeAndre had 52 his rookie season.

I know hindsight is 20-20 but if RS was banging the table for TY over Devier, history appears to have proved him right.

JB
03-16-2014, 02:15 PM
Because Posey's issue isn't/wasn't a talent problem. It was an injury problem. We took a chance on him needing extra time to get into game shape & it appeared that gamble paid off, until he suffered another unrelated injury.

The way TPN put it, you'd think Hilton is a better talent than Posey & right now, we don't know that.

There is no guarantee that Hilton would have seen as much playing time as he did in Indy. Chances are that he wouldn't, buried behind the great Kevin Walter & we'd be crying about our lack of depth at the WR position with Hilton on the depth chart.

But why do you think Hilton would have suffered the same injury? Or that he couldn't have beaten out keyshawn? He wouldn't have needed that extra time from having a year off

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 04:23 PM
But why do you think Hilton would have suffered the same injury? Or that he couldn't have beaten out keyshawn? He wouldn't have needed that extra time from having a year off

He might have beaten out Keyshawn, but he wasn't going to beat out Walter. I don't think Kubiak would have given him the opportunities. But TPN has a good point, Martin had plenty of opportunities to make plays. If Hilton would have got those opportunities he'd have been a star. But we still would have stuck to our two TE sets, with KW as WR2

I don't think he would have suffered the same injury, just throwing it out there because that's what stopped Posey. An unrelated injury that could have happened to anyone. I don't think we can hold it against Rick Smith that Posey was injured & Hilton was not.

The Pencil Neck
03-16-2014, 04:25 PM
I don't think Kubiak would have given him the opportunities.

He gave Martin the opportunity to step up early in the season and Martin didn't hang on to the ball. Over and over. And then Schaub started looking elsewhere.

With Hilton... given the fact that he was hanging on to the ball in Indy... it looks like he would have stepped up. Which would have led to more opportunities which Martin didn't get because he didn't step up.

infantrycak
03-16-2014, 04:31 PM
He might have beaten out Keyshawn, but he wasn't going to beat out Walter. I don't think Kubiak would have given him the opportunities. But TPN has a good point, Martin had plenty of opportunities to make plays. If Hilton would have got those opportunities he'd have been a star. But we still would have stuck to our two TE sets, with KW as WR2

He gave Martin the opportunity to step up early in the season and Martin didn't hang on to the ball. Over and over. And then Schaub started looking elsewhere.

With Hilton... given the fact that he was hanging on to the ball in Indy... it looks like he would have stepped up. Which would have led to more opportunities which Martin didn't get because he didn't step up.

Exactly. Kubiak and Schaub also looked early and often to Hopkins. There is zero reason to believe Walter's presence would have kept another WR from being targeted or that Walter couldn't be jumped on the depth chart. We also ran more than 2 WRs over 50% of the time and that was with Keshawn not catching 2/3rds of the balls thrown his way. There is no reason to believe we wouldn't have run more 3+ WR sets if our 3rd WR was catching 2/3rds instead.

Corrosion
03-16-2014, 04:46 PM
Who's to say? No one and I mean no one thought the 2013 Texans would be the worst team in the league. Is it likely the Texans contend? No, its unlikely. Especially not knowing who the get at QB and what they can get out of him. But I've seen too many crazy things happen in the NFL to make a blanket statement that a team won't contend. A lot crazier than the 2014 Texans becoming a contender.



Yup. The Texans had a very uncharacteristic drop. They could also have an uncharacteristic bounce. Especially since the chief cause of the drop is one position imploding.


I don't necessarily disagree that they could turn it around , but the odds are long against it considering the position that imploded was the most important position in football.
There are no FA's with the talent to step in and lead this team to the promised land & its highly unlikely that a rookie QB steps in and takes them to the playoffs , much less a deep run in the playoffs.

They have no QB and will need a year or more for a rookie to develop.

I don't blame Smith & co for not spending in FA this year , it just doesn't make a lick of sense to do so when you have so many and such impactful questionmarks across the roster.

thunderkyss
03-16-2014, 05:56 PM
He gave Martin the opportunity to step up early in the season and Martin didn't hang on to the ball. Over and over. And then Schaub started looking elsewhere.

With Hilton... given the fact that he was hanging on to the ball in Indy... it looks like he would have stepped up. Which would have led to more opportunities which Martin didn't get because he didn't step up.

Hey... that's fine I already said you made a good point. Hilton is a better WR than Keyshawn Martin.

bah007
03-16-2014, 10:19 PM
I graded Hilton as a far superior prospect to Posey. I had him as a 2nd rounder. Issue with him was that he was very raw and played at a small school, whereas Posey had two solid years in the Big Ten. I had Posey as a 3rd rounder so we took him in the right spot but I definitely would have preferred Hilton.

I had Martin as a 6th rounder. Hated the pick at the time and still hate it now.

Marshall
03-17-2014, 04:58 AM
Personally, I think it's a straw man to assert the only way a new GM should've been hired if and only if, they worked with O'Brien(who has no previous HC experience in NFL or lengthy successfull college experience).

The known piece here is Smith. Not saying make a change here for sake of making a change, more so asking when it comes down to it why have him stay?,Only really way he stays is if you believe Kubiak made bulk,of personnel calls and Smith gave him options.

There are at least two approaches to GMs when it comes to personnel.

One approach is to make him responsible for evaluation and the securing of talent. This is the style most believe is the norm.

A second is to simply assign him the responsibility to secure the talent others have determined they need. This is a reasonable approach when your skills lean toward the accounting rather than the talent evaluation. This is what I believe we have in Rick.

This makes him an acceptable retention with a new coaching change which will simply give him different players to pursue which fit their evaluations of the best players for their system.

Marshall
03-17-2014, 05:09 AM
Remember a couple of years ago when the Seahawks didn't have any DBs? They fixed that. Hopefully, we can fix our holes this offseason.

But.

To do that.

You've got to make some moves at some point.

And to do that on a limited budget, you have to get VALUE. Value is most often found toward the last stages of FA, in the draft and with UDFA. If Kubiak were still here, I think we'd have been in talks with Winston. Perhaps we are if he fit's OBs system. But we really don't know how he will adapt his system to our personnel at this time or if he has a new variation in mind from what he has done in the past.

speedfreek
03-17-2014, 07:19 AM
>Are we rebuilding?

That has a more obvious answer than "Is the sky blue?"

Marshall
03-17-2014, 07:31 AM
>Are we rebuilding?

That has a more obvious answer than "Is the sky blue?"

Not lately...

Texian
03-17-2014, 08:13 AM
Based on the number of FAs lost vs number of FAs signed the Texans ARE NOT building or rebuilding, they're destructing.

Insideop
03-17-2014, 08:16 AM
Based on the number of FAs lost vs number of FAs signed the Texans ARE NOT building or rebuilding, they're destructing.

You have to tear down before you can rebuild! :shades:

WolverineFan
03-17-2014, 10:15 AM
I had Martin as a 6th rounder. Hated the pick at the time and still hate it now.

I hated that pick as well. The guy wasn't even the best WR on his college team. That was B.J. Cunningham, who was a 6th round pick and is pretty much out of the league at this point. Martin was a horrible pick.

HOU-TEX
03-17-2014, 10:53 AM
Re: Are we rebuilding?

Yes

pirbroke
03-17-2014, 12:00 PM
I really thought we would keep most of our free agents, maybe two leaving. Get maybe a QB through free agency or minor trade and try to turn this around fast. Now, not so much, I'm not sure what the direction is. If it's full rebuild then trade everybody, half a$$ never works. Maybe it's a two year plan. I don't know but I am a little surprised so far.

steelbtexan
03-17-2014, 02:43 PM
There are at least two approaches to GMs when it comes to personnel.

One approach is to make him responsible for evaluation and the securing of talent. This is the style most believe is the norm.

A second is to simply assign him the responsibility to secure the talent others have determined they need. This is a reasonable approach when your skills lean toward the accounting rather than the talent evaluation. This is what I believe we have in Rick.

This makes him an acceptable retention with a new coaching change which will simply give him different players to pursue which fit their evaluations of the best players for their system.

Seeing the cap problems the Texans have, if the GM is an accountant then the IRS should be calling soon.

steelbtexan
03-17-2014, 02:53 PM
You have to tear down before you can rebuild! :shades:

It's past time for another rebuild. Hopefully this one will be done right.

Corrosion
03-17-2014, 04:45 PM
Maybe it's a two year plan. I don't know but I am a little surprised so far.

I think this is likely a 2-3 year plan , much of it depending upon what they do with the QB position.

No sense spending big bucks in FA if you don't have a QB who can at the very least protect the ball and limit mistakes.

Right now , I think they locate a QB this season , allow him to settle in and develop while clearing the cap for the 2015 offseason to make some significant moves. What those moves ultimately are will depend upon what they have at QB , a play maker or a caretaker.


Woohoo , post #30K (wasted)

Texian
03-17-2014, 05:59 PM
I think this is likely a 2-3 year plan , much of it depending upon what they do with the QB position.

and also depending on if they mortgage any 2014 Dead Money/Contracts and how much they mortgage. The less the better. Short term gain = Long term Pain!

drs23
03-17-2014, 06:46 PM
and also depending on if they mortgage any 2014 Dead Money/Contracts and how much they mortgage. The less the better. Short term gain = Long term Pain!

I'm pretty sure the moves, or lack thereof, have explained the Texans stance. Take the the hit now, get it over with and start next season clean. Pretty good stance to take I think. While we probably won't be contenders next season it sure paves a brighter future. Then again, WTH do I know? :heart:

steelbtexan
03-17-2014, 07:08 PM
I'm pretty sure the moves, or lack thereof, have explained the Texans stance. Take the the hit now, get it over with and start next season clean. Pretty good stance to take I think. While we probably won't be contenders next season it sure paves a brighter future. Then again, WTH do I know? :heart:

If you clean the books this yr and have a great draft, but a bad season there are worse scenarios for the future of the Texans.

djohn2oo8
03-17-2014, 07:50 PM
I'm excited to see what BOB can do considering the turnaround he made at Penn State with far less resources.

thunderkyss
03-17-2014, 08:06 PM
If you clean the books this yr and have a great draft, but a bad season there are worse scenarios for the future of the Texans.

I'm slow.

Can you tell me what needs to be cleaned off the books? Be specific.

Texian
03-17-2014, 08:36 PM
I'm pretty sure the moves, or lack thereof, have explained the Texans stance. Take the the hit now, get it over with and start next season clean. Pretty good stance to take I think. While we probably won't be contenders next season it sure paves a brighter future. Then again, WTH do I know? :heart:

From my point of the view the Texans lack of moves (so far) have been involuntary due to lack of funds. At this point they really have no other option unless they resort to their old bad habits of mortgaging the future.

I'm slow.

Can you tell me what needs to be cleaned off the books? Be specific.

Specifically, the Texans need to manage their salary cap where they begin a new season with enough salary space to either resign their better free agents or replace them with equal or better talent, WITHOUT, I repeat, WITHOUT having to resort to restructuring contracts or spreading Dead Money to the future. As long as the Texans begin each year without enough salary cap to pay the 53 man roster they're at a competitive and financial disadvantage.

thunderkyss
03-17-2014, 08:43 PM
Specifically, the Texans need to manage their salary cap where they begin a new season with enough salary space to either resign their better free agents or replace them with equal or better talent, WITHOUT, I repeat, WITHOUT having to resort to restructuring contracts or spreading Dead Money to the future. As long as the Texans begin each year without enough salary cap to pay the 53 man roster they're at a competitive and financial disadvantage.

So... specifically, which contracts are stopping us from doing that? Which ones do we have to cut this year?

Texian
03-17-2014, 08:58 PM
So... specifically, which contracts are stopping us from doing that? Which ones do we have to cut this year?

If you cut/traded? Schaub and Foster and apply all dead money to 2014, the Texans would start the 2015 year $50 million + under the salary cap.

Removal of Schaub and Foster would increase salary cap space by $26 million in 2015.

Corrosion
03-17-2014, 09:54 PM
So... specifically, which contracts are stopping us from doing that? Which ones do we have to cut this year?

The thing is that the Texans have / had several mid level type contracts in OD , Manning , Myers , Cushing along with several top paid types - Schaub , #80 , Ninja , Foster , D.Brown , JJo & Ed Reed.

AJ's contract is a killer because they have restructured it so damn may times pushing money forward. 7 years , 67m with ~20.5m or more guaranteed. He will account for almost $16m in cap space this season , 16m next season and 15m in the final year.

Cap hits for this season:

#80 16m
Schaub - 14m
Brown - 8.5m
Foster - 8.5m
JJo - 11.25m
Cushing - 5.5m
Myers - 7m
Manning - 6m
KJax - 4.335m


That's 81.m+ of cap space without factoring in OD's ~6.25m cap hit.


Now consider how many of their top players didn't contribute sh!t last season and you realize why they are in such bad shape cap wise.

Schaub , Foster , Cushing , Manning & JJo were all on the bench for significant amounts of the season.

thunderkyss
03-17-2014, 10:05 PM
If you cut/traded? Schaub and Foster and apply all dead money to 2014, the Texans would start the 2015 year $50 million + under the salary cap.

Removal of Schaub and Foster would increase salary cap space by $26 million in 2015.

Cutting Schaub alone would put us at $45M.... is this a "you don't pay running backs that kind of money" bad contract?

Goldensilence
03-17-2014, 10:09 PM
There are at least two approaches to GMs when it comes to personnel.

One approach is to make him responsible for evaluation and the securing of talent. This is the style most believe is the norm.

A second is to simply assign him the responsibility to secure the talent others have determined they need. This is a reasonable approach when your skills lean toward the accounting rather than the talent evaluation. This is what I believe we have in Rick.

This makes him an acceptable retention with a new coaching change which will simply give him different players to pursue which fit their evaluations of the best players for their system.

Considering the cap as it is now, what makes you think Rick is a more "accounting" type? If that's the case still why not replace him with someone who has a better history of cap management?

I guess ultimately that's what's been so frustrating with Rick and Gary is at the end of the it's like a shell game figuring out who made the call on draft day or who signed off on a FA. Either way at least no one could deny the wheels came flying off last year.

Again my two hopes at this point remain this: one Rick had limited call at the end of the day on the draft and in FA. That with a new hopefully more capable staff the roster can be reshaped fairly quickly. Two, this next year is so bad McNair finally makes the call to sweep the rest of the FO out.

thunderkyss
03-17-2014, 10:18 PM
Considering the cap as it is now, what makes you think Rick is a more "accounting" type? If that's the case still why not replace him with someone who has a better history of cap management?


With the state of the team being what it is, how much cap space should we have, if he cap was being managed correctly?

steelbtexan
03-17-2014, 10:20 PM
The thing is that the Texans have / had several mid level type contracts in OD , Manning , Myers , Cushing along with several top paid types - Schaub , #80 , Ninja , Foster , D.Brown , JJo & Ed Reed.

AJ's contract is a killer because they have restructured it so damn may times pushing money forward. 7 years , 67m with ~20.5m or more guaranteed. He will account for almost $16m in cap space this season , 16m next season and 15m in the final year.

Cap hits for this season:

#80 16m
Schaub - 14m
Brown - 8.5m
Foster - 8.5m
JJo - 11.25m
Cushing - 5.5m
Myers - 7m
Manning - 6m
KJax - 4.335m


That's 81.m+ of cap space without factoring in OD's ~6.25m cap hit.


Now consider how many of their top players didn't contribute sh!t last season and you realize why they are in such bad shape cap wise.

Schaub , Foster , Cushing , Manning & JJo were all on the bench for significant amounts of the season.

Who put the team in this position? Who thought these contracts were a good idea?

Rick/Gary/Olson/Wade

Did Gary sign off on the offense contracts/(Schaub,Foster) did Wade sign off on defense? Was this Rick's idea or did Olson have to sign off on everything.

I'm just wondering what your opinion of the orgs financial team is?

Norg
03-17-2014, 10:41 PM
well from here on out Rick has no more excuses if anything goes wrong its 100% on him

ObsiWan
03-18-2014, 09:02 AM
There are at least two approaches to GMs when it comes to personnel.

One approach is to make him responsible for evaluation and the securing of talent. This is the style most believe is the norm.

A second is to simply assign him the responsibility to secure the talent others have determined they need. This is a reasonable approach when your skills lean toward the accounting rather than the talent evaluation. This is what I believe we have in Rick.

This makes him an acceptable retention with a new coaching change which will simply give him different players to pursue which fit their evaluations of the best players for their system.
I'm totally with you on this viewpoint; at least as it pertains to Smith's working relationship with Kubiak. Now whether Smith's role evolves from the guy who just fetches the players on the coaching staff's "grocery list" into the guy makes - or at least helps - create the grocery list under Bill O'Brien remains to be seen.

Texian
03-18-2014, 09:09 AM
is this a "you don't pay running backs that kind of money" bad contract?

Yes but also taking into consideration the Texans are rebuilding the OL implementing a new system which will likely involve most of a season learning curve. It took Alex Gibbs 2 years to fully implement the ZBS and for it to become as successful as it was. In addition I don't have the highest confidence in the Texans new OL Coach, Paul Dunn. Dunn was fired this year by Atlanta because the running game suffered under his tutleage. Dunn's OL gave up 44 Sacks Allowed and ranked in the Top 10 in QB Pressures. It all just makes prudent and responsible sense to me. Cutting/trading Foster after 2014 would only give the Texans $1 million cap relief in 2015 instead of the $9 million gained by doing the same this year.

infantrycak
03-18-2014, 09:57 AM
Yes but also taking into consideration the Texans are rebuilding the OL implementing a new system which will likely involve most of a season learning curve. It took Alex Gibbs 2 years to fully implement the ZBS and for it to become as successful as it was.

You like to only use portions of the facts.

1) the Texans were already a ZBS team when Gibbs got here but were not utilizing the cut block.
2) it didn't take two years for Gibbs to teach it. It took two years for the Texans to find a competent and healthy RB to run behind the OL.
3) you have no idea how extensive any changes may be to the running schemes.

WolverineFan
03-18-2014, 10:08 AM
In addition I don't have the highest confidence in the Texans new OL Coach, Paul Dunn. Dunn was fired this year by Atlanta because the running game suffered under his tutleage. Dunn's OL gave up 44 Sacks Allowed and ranked in the Top 10 in QB Pressures.


In Dunn's defense, this was his starting O-Line in Atlanta last year....

LT - Lamar Holmes
LG - Justin Blalock
C - Peter Konz
RG - Garrett Reynolds
RT - Jeremy Trueblood

Sam Baker (LT) missed 12 games and Atlanta let both Reynolds and Trueblood walk in FA. I don't put much blame on him, but that's just me. Atlanta has had a pretty poor line for a couple of years now, but IMO that has more to do with how little talent they have acquired over the years.

infantrycak
03-18-2014, 10:28 AM
Sam Baker (LT) missed 12 games and Atlanta let both Reynolds and Trueblood walk in FA. I don't put much blame on him, but that's just me. Atlanta has had a pretty poor line for a couple of years now, but IMO that has more to do with how little talent they have acquired over the years.

Plus their RBs have been subpar.

WolverineFan
03-18-2014, 10:36 AM
Plus their RBs have been subpar.

Turner had a good run, but got old and lost his legs. Same with Jackson. Those guys can't create yards anymore so you're not helping them at all by throwing a crap OL out there in front of them.

ObsiWan
03-18-2014, 11:08 AM
Who put the team in this position? Who thought these contracts were a good idea?

Rick/Gary/Olson/Wade

Did Gary sign off on the offense contracts/(Schaub,Foster) did Wade sign off on defense? Was this Rick's idea or did Olson have to sign off on everything.

I'm just wondering what your opinion of the orgs financial team is?

Your problem is you keep looking for one guy to blame. There is no "one guy" unless you want to go with "the buck stops here" approach, then it's Bob McNair. It's his money so, bottom line, he has to sign off on everything.

But I don't think there's "one guy". It's the coordinators and the head coach who establish player performance level and necessity to their scheme. They establish who's working well and therefore who's worth paying. It's Rick's job to pay them no more than the "going rate" (at the time the contract is agreed to) based on past and anticipated future level of performance. This is the tricky part because you're mostly guessing how good a guy is going to be. Finally, it's Olsen's job to make sure we stay out of Cap Hell while fitting as many quality players (as identified by the coaching staff) as we can under the cap.

Future performance, no matter who it is, is a roll of the dice.

infantrycak
03-18-2014, 11:20 AM
It's Rick's job to pay them no more than the "going rate" (at the time the contract is agreed to) based on past and anticipated future level of performance. This is the tricky part because you're mostly guessing how good a guy is going to be.

Excellent point and throw in guessing about what the future of the going rate will be. Generally there is a gradual incline across all positions with the growth of the cap. But RB has taken a sharp hit since Foster's deal was signed that I don't think anyone saw coming. I don't hold something like that against the decision makers.

Texian
03-18-2014, 11:36 AM
You like to only use portions of the facts.

1) the Texans were already a ZBS team when Gibbs got here but were not utilizing the cut block.
2) it didn't take two years for Gibbs to teach it. It took two years for the Texans to find a competent and healthy RB to run behind the OL.
3) you have no idea how extensive any changes may be to the running schemes.

1. Sherman tried to use a variation of ZBS but also he tried to incorporate a power run game. Neither of which were very successful.

2. No it does. Gibbs and the OL he has coached are on record as saying it takes two years to become comfortable in Gibbs system and learrning all the different blocking assignments.

3. There will be changes

4. Once again you're venturing into a conversation where you probably shouldn't.

Texian
03-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Your problem is you keep looking for one guy to blame. There is no "one guy" unless you want to go with "the buck stops here" approach, then it's Bob McNair. It's his money so, bottom line, he has to sign off on everything.

But I don't think there's "one guy". It's the coordinators and the head coach who establish player performance level and necessity to their scheme. They establish who's working well and therefore who's worth paying. It's Rick's job to pay them no more than the "going rate" (at the time the contract is agreed to) based on past and anticipated future level of performance. This is the tricky part because you're mostly guessing how good a guy is going to be. Finally, it's Olsen's job to make sure we stay out of Cap Hell while fitting as many quality players (as identified by the coaching staff) as we can under the cap.

Future performance, no matter who it is, is a roll of the dice.

The discussion/debate about Foster's contract is he could've been tendered for $2 million the same year he signed the $8million per yr + contract.

In regards to one person being responsible, that belonged to Kubiak, he's the one who said make it happen and it was up to Smith and Olsen to make it so. That's pretty much SOP and what happens and is carried out starting with the person with final say on the 53 man roster, which Kubiak did have. IMHO I think Bill O'Brien also has FINAL SAY on the 53 man roster although it will be presented as a collaborative collective effort. However, Bob McNair will always have SELECTIVE INTERFERENCE (Ed REED).

ObsiWan
03-18-2014, 09:32 PM
The discussion/debate about Foster's contract is he could've been tendered for $2 million the same year he signed the $8million per yr + contract.
why would you tender him when he'd given you 3 very solid years from 2010 - 2012. He had over 5000 yds and 40+ TDs. Only two other back had 5000 yds over that stretch - Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson - and neither of them had 40+ TDs. Why would you not want to lock up that performance level? That's where the "guessing on future performance" comes in. Maybe I should have said "gambling on future performance" because that's closer to the truth.

In regards to one person being responsible, that belonged to Kubiak, he's the one who said make it happen and it was up to Smith and Olsen to make it so. That's pretty much SOP and what happens and is carried out starting with the person with final say on the 53 man roster, which Kubiak did have. IMHO I think Bill O'Brien also has FINAL SAY on the 53 man roster although it will be presented as a collaborative collective effort. However, Bob McNair will always have SELECTIVE INTERFERENCE (Ed REED).
I'm thinking that McNair has selectively interfered other times too; the extension of Carr, most likely Schaub's contract (you'll not convince me that Uncle Bob didn't dictate we wrap him up)... Signing Mario... Making A.J. the highest paid WR in the league (at that time). There are probably others we have no insight into.

Corrosion
03-19-2014, 02:45 AM
Who put the team in this position? Who thought these contracts were a good idea?

Rick/Gary/Olson/Wade

Did Gary sign off on the offense contracts/(Schaub,Foster) did Wade sign off on defense? Was this Rick's idea or did Olson have to sign off on everything.

I'm just wondering what your opinion of the orgs financial team is?

Smith & Olson in work in tandem on contracts. Coaches aren't involved in that aspect for the most part. They just say "find me a player with these qualities" or "I think this guy has the skillset to help us win." Its up to Smith to find them , Smith & Olson to work out the contract / cap details.


Honestly I don't fault them for the cap situation last season , nor the current situation.
They had a team they thought could contend for a super bowl , they went all in with that team. Now they have to eat those contracts and clear the books for another shot.
I'd be much more upset if they hadn't gone all in with last years team considering the expectations. Schaub breaking down just wasn't something they could predict after his consistent play over the last several seasons.

Texian
03-19-2014, 03:00 AM
why would you tender him when he'd given you 3 very solid years from 2010 - 2012.

For starters $6 million savings. Texans would not have had to make all the cuts and trade Ryans. Two solid years, he signed his extension, March 2012.

ObsiWan
03-19-2014, 03:39 AM
For starters $6 million savings. Texans would not have had to make all the cuts and trade Ryans. Two solid years, he signed his extension, March 2012.
Since he led the league in rushing TDs and carries that year, it didn't look like a horrible investment did it?

This is another one of those times when you have to wonder if McNair (or Kubiak) directed Smith to "lock him up".

Texian
03-19-2014, 09:49 AM
Since he led the league in rushing TDs and carries that year, it didn't look like a horrible investment did it?

This is another one of those times when you have to wonder if McNair (or Kubiak) directed Smith to "lock him up".

horrible investment? There is a valid argument that is was the thing to do (What a Head Coach would do). There is also a valid argument that is was not a responsible prudent business decision. (What a GM wouldn't do).

You make another valid observation about McNair's Selective Interference. I have heard Bob say on multiple occasions, we have the cash to spend and we're going to spend it. Bob's spending history, as you have noted, suggest Bob's spending plan resembles "making it rain" vs smart prudent responsible salary cap management.

IMHO, most folks and fans wanted to believe that the Texans front office is the epitome and perfect picture of a professional business model (me included). Ship shape, squared away and buttoned down. That shine is losing it luster. The Texans front office is likely more dysfunctional than many of us wanted to believe.

Norg
03-20-2014, 01:38 PM
remember when we were kings of da South back two back Div champs and Were the bengals Daddyy


yeah good times good times

houstonhurricane
03-20-2014, 08:27 PM
We just signed Ryan Fitzpatrick, you better believe we are rebuilding.

_King_
03-21-2014, 10:28 AM
Not Rebuilding.

Find a good QB, and a good OLB and this team is ready to compete.

chicagotexan2
03-21-2014, 10:31 AM
Not Rebuilding.

Find a good QB, and a good OLB and this team is ready to compete.

and sprinkle in a good RT, RG, CB, Nickle CB, RB, MLB and hope that your starting RB comes back from back injury and your good to go.

Thorn
03-21-2014, 10:32 AM
Like the new Star Trek films, this is not a reboot. It is simply taking place in an alternate universe. OB's universe.

_King_
03-21-2014, 10:33 AM
and sprinkle in a good RT, RG, CB, Nickle CB, RB, MLB and hope that your starting RB comes back from back injury and your good to go.

I don't think any of those positions will be as hard to fill as QB and OLB.

powda
03-21-2014, 10:40 AM
and sprinkle in a good RT, RG, CB, Nickle CB, RB, MLB and hope that your starting RB comes back from back injury and your good to go.

QB, Rt, Lg, Rg (not ready to trust brooks fully), Rb#2, possinly a slot wr, Nt (depth or starter depending on your opinion of powe), De, Olb, ilb, ilb depth, Nickle, safety.


:trophy:


Outside of that we're all good. DYNASTY!

thunderkyss
03-21-2014, 10:51 AM
We don't need pro bowlers or first/second/third round picks at every position.

We've got 14 pro bowl or 1st/2nd/3rd round picks on this team, 7 on both sides of the ball. We're just looking for role players to fill out the roster.

Chances are we won't be contenders for the 2014 Super Bowl, but we should put up a fight for the division.

amazing80
03-21-2014, 10:57 AM
I don't think any of those positions will be as hard to fill as QB and OLB.

lol considering we have done nothing to improve our cap really, and since we haven't signed anyone of importance but did cut some quality STARTERS, I think we're worse now than 1 month ago.

ObsiWan
03-21-2014, 02:57 PM
Like the new Star Trek films, this is not a reboot. It is simply taking place in an alternate universe. OB's universe.
Is this the universe where Spock is evil and has a goatee?
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_1fnZxjNKI1Uo1IRBRBOkw8BOnmM8H DDsYBJrmdTlAvSh8EHoeg

ObsiWan
03-21-2014, 03:09 PM
We don't need pro bowlers or first/second/third round picks at every position.

We've got 14 pro bowl or 1st/2nd/3rd round picks on this team, 7 on both sides of the ball. We're just looking for role players to fill out the roster.

Chances are we won't be contenders for the 2014 Super Bowl, but we should put up a fight for the division.
Those same guys were here when we went 2-14.
What's yer point?

TheMatrix31
03-21-2014, 03:14 PM
Those same guys were here when we went 2-14.
What's yer point?

Yes, and they were all very, very healthy.

thunderkyss
03-21-2014, 03:53 PM
Those same guys were here when we went 2-14.
What's yer point?

We've got a team as talented as the Colts team that went 11-5 after a 2-14 season, & just as much as the Chiefs team that also went 11-5 after a 2-14 season.

Alex Smith~ Ryan Fitzpatrick...

Ok, I'm going to have to work on that.

Corrosion
03-21-2014, 04:38 PM
Not Rebuilding.

Find a good QB, and a good OLB and this team is ready to compete.

Put the crack pipe down and step away from the computer.

This team is riddled with holes ... Sure there are some talented players scattered across the roster but ... there are more holes than solid positions.

Lets start on the OL where three of five positions are below average and at least two of them need a talent upgrade in RT and LG. I'm willing to give Brooks a year to prove he belongs. Newton was garbage , Wade Smith is not a starting caliber guard anymore , just a shadow of the former pro bowl player he once was.

Now lets look at the offensive backfield. We have Nothing , absolutely Nothing at QB. Yates , Keenum & Fitzpatrick ....Foster coming off a year where he did diddly squat and sat out half of the season. Ben Tate is now in Cleveland & we still have ... Nothing at QB.

TE- OD gone , Graham is solid & I expect Griffin to make a contribution. Who's that camp body they signed ?! I forget his name.

WR - Behind #80 and Hopkins there aint much talent.


Defensive line , you got Watt and .... who ?! Oh , Jared Crick .... Earl Mitchell is gone , Ninja is gone. Ok , they signed underachiever Jerrell Powe but need 2-3 more guy's capable of making a contribution.


LBers - Cushing , Reed , Mercilus .... and a not much more. Cushing coming off a second season ending injury.

Corners - KJax played well , JJo was hot and cold , injured often. McCain is gone.

Safety is the one position group that doesn't need a major talent infusion as Manning , Swearinger & Keo are at least capable .... as long as Manning is healthy.


Here's the list of holes just to help you understand in simple visual terms:

QB - when QB is at the top of your need list , you aint winning many games.
RT
LG
RB

You could add TE & WR to the list of needs.

DT/NT
DE
ILB
CB

Notice thee positions of need in the front seven .... Sure , you got JJ Watt but you don't have clones to fill those other spots.

We've got a team as talented as the Colts team that went 11-5 after a 2-14 season, & just as much as the Chiefs team that also went 11-5 after a 2-14 season.

Alex Smith~ Ryan Fitzpatrick...

Ok, I'm going to have to work on that.


I wont disagree with the fact that this team is more talented at many positions than that Dolts team .... but they do have more holes and no Andrew Luck to plug into the most important hole.

thunderkyss
03-21-2014, 05:22 PM
Put the crack pipe down and step away from the computer.

This team is riddled with holes ... Sure there are some talented players scattered across the roster but ... there are more holes than solid positions.


How do we compare to the Jags, the Titans, the Browns, the Bills, Raiders, Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins, Steelers, Giants, Bengals, & Ravens?

bah007
03-21-2014, 05:39 PM
The premium talent on this team covered up the holes for a couple of years. But eventually our weaknesses were exposed and exploited.

The overall talent on this roster is pathetically bad. We just have a few special pieces that make it look better.

Corrosion
03-21-2014, 05:51 PM
How do we compare to the Jags, the Titans, the Browns, the Bills, Raiders, Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins, Steelers, Giants, Bengals, & Ravens?

Each team you listed has some very good players , I think you can separate that list into two groups tho - Those who have a quarterback and those who don't and then look at the foundational players each team has or lacks.

Texans , Jags , Tinbreds , Browns , Bills .... need quarterbacks.

The Texans definitely have more talented players than any team in this group. None of those squads has a JJ Watt , Cushing or #80.


Cowpies , Iggles , Injuns , Steelers & Giants have established quarterbacks.

The Cowpies are hard to get a grip on , that coach is a yes man .... and their owner/GM is playing real life Madden. They have (had) some great players but have been horribly mismanaged for a decade.

The Iggles started the season without a quarterback and found a good one , finishing the season strong. They also have a couple other very solid foundational players. Probably a better overall roster than the Texans tho the Texans have greater "star power."

The Injuns had a broken part at quarterback & it showed in their record. They do have some talent to work with , arguably less than the Texans in terms of stars / foundational players. If RG3 gets healthy , they are better right now.


The Giants have a QB who's won two Lombardi Trophy's. Can someone block for that guy before he gets broke ?! Again , a better roster with less star power than the Texans.

The Steelers have a very good QB , who much like Eli needs help up front. The defense doesn't have the same talent it did in past seasons either. Better QB than the Texans but they may have more holes to fill and their stars are aging or history.

WolverineFan
03-21-2014, 06:00 PM
The premium talent on this team covered up the holes for a couple of years. But eventually our weaknesses were exposed and exploited.

The overall talent on this roster is pathetically bad. We just have a few special pieces that make it look better.

Agreed. The overall roster talent is bottom 10 in the league. The top guys like Watt, Andre, Foster, Cushing, etc. make it look a lot better than it really is.

Corrosion
03-21-2014, 06:01 PM
The premium talent on this team covered up the holes for a couple of years. But eventually our weaknesses were exposed and exploited.

The overall talent on this roster is pathetically bad. We just have a few special pieces that make it look better.

Right ,we have arguably as much "star talent" as any team in the league. But we are lacking in overall talent ..... and have a glaring hole at the most important position on the field.

imatexan
03-21-2014, 06:02 PM
Put the crack pipe down and step away from the computer.

This team is riddled with holes ... Sure there are some talented players scattered across the roster but ... there are more holes than solid positions.

Lets start on the OL where three of five positions are below average and at least two of them need a talent upgrade in RT and LG. I'm willing to give Brooks a year to prove he belongs. Newton was garbage , Wade Smith is not a starting caliber guard anymore , just a shadow of the former pro bowl player he once was.

Now lets look at the offensive backfield. We have Nothing , absolutely Nothing at QB. Yates , Keenum & Fitzpatrick ....Foster coming off a year where he did diddly squat and sat out half of the season. Ben Tate is now in Cleveland & we still have ... Nothing at QB.

TE- OD gone , Graham is solid & I expect Griffin to make a contribution. Who's that camp body they signed ?! I forget his name.

WR - Behind #80 and Hopkins there aint much talent.


Defensive line , you got Watt and .... who ?! Oh , Jared Crick .... Earl Mitchell is gone , Ninja is gone. Ok , they signed underachiever Jerrell Powe but need 2-3 more guy's capable of making a contribution.


LBers - Cushing , Reed , Mercilus .... and a not much more. Cushing coming off a second season ending injury.

Corners - KJax played well , JJo was hot and cold , injured often. McCain is gone.

Safety is the one position group that doesn't need a major talent infusion as Manning , Swearinger & Keo are at least capable .... as long as Manning is healthy.


Here's the list of holes just to help you understand in simple visual terms:

QB - when QB is at the top of your need list , you aint winning many games.
RT
LG
RB

You could add TE & WR to the list of needs.

DT/NT
DE
ILB
CB

Notice thee positions of need in the front seven .... Sure , you got JJ Watt but you don't have clones to fill those other spots.




I wont disagree with the fact that this team is more talented at many positions than that Dolts team .... but they do have more holes and no Andrew Luck to plug into the most important hole.


RB and CB is not a hole, I would not consider Foster, Joseph, and Jackson players that leave a "hole" at their position.

We need depth at many positions and do have holes but don't think those 2 positions are holes, those are quality starters.

_King_
03-21-2014, 06:03 PM
Put the crack pipe down and step away from the computer.

You must have a hole in your head if you think this team won't compete next year.

honored82
03-21-2014, 06:12 PM
Here's the list of holes just to help you understand in simple visual terms:

QB - when QB is at the top of your need list , you aint winning many games.
RT
LG
RB - Back up will be fine

Defense

DT/NT
DE
ILB
CB - Back up will be fine



We definitely need those 6 holes fixed with starters. More likely in draft. Lets see what talent level we get at those positions.

thunderkyss
03-21-2014, 06:23 PM
Each team you listed has some very good players , I think you can separate that list into two groups tho - Those who have a quarterback and those who don't and then look at the foundational players each team has or lacks.

Texans , Jags , Tinbreds , Browns , Bills .... need quarterbacks.

The Texans definitely have more talented players than any team in this group. None of those squads has a JJ Watt , Cushing or #80.


Cowpies , Iggles , Injuns , Steelers & Giants have established quarterbacks.

The Cowpies are hard to get a grip on , that coach is a yes man .... and their owner/GM is playing real life Madden. They have (had) some great players but have been horribly mismanaged for a decade.

The Iggles started the season without a quarterback and found a good one , finishing the season strong. They also have a couple other very solid foundational players. Probably a better overall roster than the Texans tho the Texans have greater "star power."

The Injuns had a broken part at quarterback & it showed in their record. They do have some talent to work with , arguably less than the Texans in terms of stars / foundational players. If RG3 gets healthy , they are better right now.


The Giants have a QB who's won two Lombardi Trophy's. Can someone block for that guy before he gets broke ?! Again , a better roster with less star power than the Texans.

The Steelers have a very good QB , who much like Eli needs help up front. The defense doesn't have the same talent it did in past seasons either. Better QB than the Texans but they may have more holes to fill and their stars are aging or history.

So 8+ wins against that motley crew isn't out of the question??

Corrosion
03-21-2014, 06:26 PM
RB and CB is not a hole, I would not consider Foster, Joseph, and Jackson players that leave a "hole" at their position.

We need depth at many positions and do have holes but don't think those 2 positions are holes, those are quality starters.

Cornerback that 3rd guy is basically a starter ... Most teams are in nickel & dime packages greater than half the time. That 3rd spot is most definitely a hole as there is nothing on the roster beyond KJax and JJo.


Running back is a little different , Foster when healthy is a top 5 guy at the position. Thing is , will he be healthy ?? If so the position is of little concern. If he misses half the season again , that's a hole.
I think history reminds us that we should err on the side of caution with Foster. Remember the last time we went into a season counting on a RB coming back off of injury ?? ... He was never the same.

Corrosion
03-21-2014, 06:27 PM
So 8+ wins against that motley crew isn't out of the question??

It aint out of the question .... but there are a whole lotta if's & buts.

I'm preparing myself for a sub .500 season .... If they accomplish anything better .... I'll be satisfied.

Lucky
03-21-2014, 06:35 PM
RB and CB is not a hole, I would not consider Foster, Joseph, and Jackson players that leave a "hole" at their position.

I think the Texans need a quality backup considering Foster's injury history. Plus, they probably need a Danny Woodhead type back. Nickel corner is pretty much a starting position in the NFL. And the Texans don't have one. So yeah, that has to be considered a "hole".

I'm concerned about the OLB position. Whether the personnel the Texans have on the d-line match with what Crennel needs. And of course, I'm very concerned about the RT spot. The Texans don't have all pros at every position. No team does. What the good teams are able to do is mask their weaknesses and emphasize their strengths. I don't expect a Super Bowl championship this season. But, I would like to see a team that overcomes some of their weaknesses and overachieves. I don't think that's asking for too much.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2014, 06:42 PM
This team is riddled with holes ....

HA!! You and I collectively don't have enough fingers and toes to fill the holes.

htownfan32
03-21-2014, 06:43 PM
I think the Texans need a quality backup considering Foster's injury history. Plus, they probably need a Danny Woodhead type back. Nickel corner is pretty much a starting position in the NFL. And the Texans don't have one. So yeah, that has to be considered a "hole".

I'm concerned about the OLB position. Whether the personnel the Texans have on the d-line match with what Crennel needs. And of course, I'm very concerned about the RT spot. The Texans don't have all pros at every position. No team does. What the good teams are able to do is mask their weaknesses and emphasize their strengths. I don't expect a Super Bowl championship this season. But, I would like to see a team that overcomes some of their weaknesses and overachieves. I don't think that's asking for too much.

I agree and so do quite a few draftniks over in the college board. Expect to hear a name like Dri Archer called in the 5th, possibly even the 4th round.

WolverineFan
03-21-2014, 07:14 PM
I agree and so do quite a few draftniks over in the college board. Expect to hear a name like Dri Archer called in the 5th, possibly even the 4th round.

I think he'll be gone by the 5th round and we have too many holes to use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a RB. A sleeper I like is Brendan Bigelow from Cal. Could be had in the 6th round.

thunderkyss
03-21-2014, 08:10 PM
Cornerback that 3rd guy is basically a starter ... Most teams are in nickel & dime packages greater than half the time. That 3rd spot is most definitely a hole as there is nothing on the roster beyond KJax and JJo.

I still like Brandon Harris as our nickel. I know it's not popular here (imagine that) but I think the kid's got game & should have been starting ahead of McCain... actually never should have signed McCain to a second contract.

But we'll see.

It aint out of the question .... but there are a whole lotta if's & buts.

I'm preparing myself for a sub .500 season .... If they accomplish anything better .... I'll be satisfied.

To each his own. Most of the teams we'll face are bad teams, Not teams having a bad year, like Baltimore & Pittsburgh.... but bad teams; Buffalo, Cleveland, Dallas... I'm expecting .500 or better & will be very disappointed if we're not.

I'm not going to understand how Buffalo will beat us, or Cleveland, or Schaub & the Raiders. I won't take it well if Dallas or Jacksonville beat us. I expect to be competitive with the Giants, Eagles, & 'Skins. I can't imagine the Titans sweeping us & I think we should have a chance to beat Cincinnati.

If not, then Bill O'Brien was not the right choice... at least that's the way I see it.

infantrycak
03-21-2014, 08:22 PM
I still like Brandon Harris as our nickel. I know it's not popular here (imagine that) but I think the kid's got game & should have been starting ahead of McCain... actually never should have signed McCain to a second contract.

I thought Harris should have been starting over McCain as well. A fresh set of eyes may agree...or we may both be wrong.

Thorn
03-21-2014, 08:43 PM
I don't see where expecting anywhere between 7 to 9 wins this season is a stretch.

honored82
03-24-2014, 02:42 AM
OB will be on NFL game day morning on Monday. Lets see what he has to say.

Monday @NFL_AM interviews with Jim Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Chuck Pagano, Pete Carroll, Bill O'Brien and more #GoodStuff

Scooter
03-24-2014, 06:37 AM
i havent read most of the thread so forgive me if i missed a crucial argument. i've also had a whiskey or few so this might ramble a bit.

i don't think we're rebuilding at all. we frankly have way too much talent to call it a rebuild. last year we had the worst record in football, and it took some serious fail to be worse than the "i bet they go winless" jaguars. i blame 90% of it on ed reed and to an extent bob mcnair, because there had never been a hint of locker room dissent until the moment reed arrived. kubiak caught a lot of hell in his time here, much of it deserved, but there was never a question of the players being together on the same page and giving 100% - something changed in 2013 and call me crazy but i can point to one "leader" with the label of cancer that happened (with too much support from the top). schaub and andre arguing, rookies mouthing off and screwing up, an offensive line that crapped it's pants and more ... these are things that kubiak had firmly in line until his authority was given away.

regardless, we have talent all over the place. we had 8 probowlers in 2012, have all-pros at key positions, and for what it's worth we have arguably the single best player in the game on our team. watt, cushing, jackson, joseph, and manning are great to spectacular players. brown, myers, foster and andre are top of their positions. hopkins and brooks are young and climbing fast.

we have some elite talent, trouble is we have a gigantic dropoff from that talent to the next tier. duane brown is an all-pro, derrick newton should be struggling to make a roster. brian cushing is one of the greats (when he's on the field) and we put random minimum salaries next to him. watt and ninja - with nobody at nose or outside (despite our draft efforts). kareem and joseph with no one behind them. schaub was really good but couldnt maintain after injury, while yates hadnt progressed, and his "heir" (maybe) needed another year of seasoning. the dropoff from probowlers to nobodies was too dramatic to hold for long with the injuries, and didnt stand a chance when the locker room imploded.

so to that i wouldn't call us rebuilding at all. i'd say we're correcting. there are loyalty issues (keo, newton, etc) that need to be fixed by someone without an ego regarding these should-be fringe players. there are better potentials on the roster that we havent really seen yet such as quess, griffin, t williams and even mercilus as a pure pass rusher. fill the major holes, give the head coach the iron fist he needs (which it appears o'brien has), and we're back to 2012 where we comfortably make the dance and hope for the best.

thunderkyss
03-24-2014, 07:11 AM
regardless, we have talent all over the place. we had 8 probowlers in 2012, have all-pros at key positions, and for what it's worth we have arguably the single best player in the game on our team. watt, cushing, jackson, joseph, and manning are great to spectacular players. brown, myers, foster and andre are top of their positions. hopkins and brooks are young and climbing fast.



Agreed. We've got our "play maker" starters. The holes we have at starter positions don't need to be pro bowlers or All-Pros. Jared Crick would be a perfect DE in a 2 gap 3-4. He's probably not going to make a lot of plays... but he doesn't have to.

We need a guy next to Cushing, we want him to be a bad-ass, because we're worried about Cushing's health. But we only need someone who can bring what Sharpton did when he was healthy.

We need a play maker at OLB, I'm not even going to sugar coat that one. We need a starting RT (may already be on the team). We need a play maker at TE (may already be on the team).

We need a starting QB. On that point alone, I can understand the "rebuilding" label. But like you, I don't think it's a rebuild.

Corrosion
03-24-2014, 02:40 PM
We need a starting QB. On that point alone, I can understand the "rebuilding" label. But like you, I don't think it's a rebuild.

Its not a total rebuild but with so many needs up and down the roster and questions about the health of guy's we expect to start (Foster & Cushing) it sure seems like a rebuild to me.

A couple people mentioned in the other thread (rank team needs) that we need ~20 players , be they starters or depth. I tend to agree with that assessment. That's ~40% of the roster.

Because the Texans have "star power" at multiple positions I don't believe they need to land more of the same , what they need is guys who fit their system that are average to better than average NFL players. They need to replace guys like Derek Newton who is below average to .... bad.

You look at the defensive line and realize they have Watt , Crick & Powe .... and that's it. One of those is a proven starter , the other two backups.

At ILB we have Cushing coming off injury and .... Nodda.

OLB Reed and Mercilus are capable but behind them is very questionable talent , aren't they all UDFA's ?? (Tuggle & I forget the other guys name).

At Corner KJax played very well last season , JJo was hot and cold , maybe it was the nagging injuries , maybe it wasn't. McCain is a goner and I'm not sold on Harris.

Safety is the only position on the entire defense that I feel confident about going into the season. Everywhere else , they can stand to add (Or must add) talent. The offense is much the same , with the exception being center and possibly TE.

Sure , they have star players up and down the roster but the holes between them are .... as wide as the distance between the stars in the sky.

thunderkyss
03-24-2014, 02:51 PM
They need to replace guys like Derek Newton who is below average to .... bad.


Really baffles me that he is still on the team. I know it's a new staff & everything..... but damn...

:vincepalm:

infantrycak
03-24-2014, 02:54 PM
Really baffles me that he is still on the team. I know it's a new staff & everything..... but damn...

:vincepalm:

Why cut him? - he isn't getting paid and they are in the process of doubling the size of the team, not worrying about roster spots.

thunderkyss
03-24-2014, 02:59 PM
Why cut him? - he isn't getting paid and they are in the process of doubling the size of the team, not worrying about roster spots.

Just out of spite, to salve my emotions.

htownfan32
03-24-2014, 03:09 PM
I don't see where expecting anywhere between 7 to 9 wins this season is a stretch.

I would be happy with nine wins. That would validate the idea that this squad wasn't really so bad, just had bad coaching and terrible overall play.

9 wins would make me very hopeful for next season.

htownfan32
03-24-2014, 03:13 PM
I think he'll be gone by the 5th round and we have too many holes to use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a RB. A sleeper I like is Brendan Bigelow from Cal. Could be had in the 6th round.

While I agree, you never know. O'Brien might be enamored with one prospect or another As for Bigelow, I'll have to do some research.

Btw I do think that when we get our Danny Woodhead type back, it'll be in the later rounds, probably a sleeper like you mentioned. I'm just a huge proponent of Archer. He reminds me of Tavon Austin and, because you only invest a 4th or 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder, has a much better cost to value ratio.

Hervoyel
03-25-2014, 10:31 AM
So to summarize...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/Hervoyel/8686324492_54814be3c0_zps6ab99e0a.jpg

Yes, we are rebuilding

Corrosion
03-26-2014, 10:22 AM
I would be happy with nine wins. That would validate the idea that this squad wasn't really so bad, just had bad coaching and terrible overall play.

9 wins would make me very hopeful for next season.

When you examine the overall roster .... and realize just how many holes this team has , do you get the feeling that .... the wrong guy was fired ?!

I mean , we're looking at roughly a dozen positions of need across the roster .... out of 22 possible positions. The majority of those aren't just depth , but starter caliber needs.
Roster building & cap management are the realm of the GM , I think after careful observation , a dozen holes and a team in cap hell , its clear to see that Smith hasn't done his job very well.


Right now , I expect somewhere between 5-7 W's .... tho that number is subject to change as critical positions are addressed with quality players.

Ryan Fitzpatrick is the QB ... for now. How high can your expectations be ?!

infantrycak
03-26-2014, 11:47 AM
Ryan Fitzpatrick is the QB ... for now. How high can your expectations be ?!

With a career record of 27 and 49, 5.7 wins would be par.

bah007
03-26-2014, 12:41 PM
With a career record of 27 and 49, 5.7 wins would be par.

I'd take 5-11/6-10 if plans for a long term plan appeared along the way. Quick turnarounds rarely last. Let's build this thing correctly from the ground up and set this franchise up for some long term success.

Hervoyel
03-26-2014, 02:42 PM
I'd take 5-11/6-10 if plans for a long term plan appeared along the way. Quick turnarounds rarely last. Let's build this thing correctly from the ground up and set this franchise up for some long term success.

Yeah. Slow and steady wins the race. I mean, look how well we've been doing that since 2002. Look how long our last winning "era" lasted. WoooHooo!

The Texans need to pursue winning like their lives depended on it and with an obsession bordering on unhealthy. I know that's not going to happen but this slow building process crap is just that. Crap. Any process that takes more than three years to start producing wins on a better than .500 level is inadequate in todays game, in my opinion. It can be done in two years and it happens often enough that I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for that.

Exascor
03-26-2014, 02:58 PM
I'd take 5-11/6-10 if plans for a long term plan appeared along the way. Quick turnarounds rarely last. Let's build this thing correctly from the ground up and set this franchise up for some long term success.

That's what I always felt but not any longer. I'm leaning to the opposite way now. If O'Brien doesn't do great in 2-3 years, can him and start over. If we draft a QB and he ends up looking more like Bradford than Luck...draft another one. My patience ran out with Capers/Carr & Kubiak/Schaub. Close just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

thunderkyss
03-26-2014, 05:31 PM
The Texans need to pursue winning like their lives depended on it and with an obsession bordering on unhealthy. I know that's not going to happen but this slow building process crap is just that. Crap. Any process that takes more than three years to start producing wins on a better than .500 level is inadequate in todays game, in my opinion. It can be done in two years and it happens often enough that I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for that.

I agree. We're at a cross roads. If we disassemble this team, then have to forgo winning until we have the team OB wants, I think it may be a mistake. Winning is a habit & losing is a bad habit.

We took our time & rooted all the losers out of Houston, need to add another crop of winners & strengthen what winning culture we do have, before Andre (bless his soul) is only showing up for a paycheck, or Arian, or Duane, or Jared Crick, etc...

We're playing the Raiders, the Jags, the Titans, the Bills, the Browns, the Redskins, & the Cowboys... we don't need to be title contenders, I'm not suggesting we have to win the division, but we've got an opportunity to keep this thing going in the right direction.

Double Barrel
03-26-2014, 06:01 PM
Yeah. Slow and steady wins the race. I mean, look how well we've been doing that since 2002. Look how long our last winning "era" lasted. WoooHooo!

The Texans need to pursue winning like their lives depended on it and with an obsession bordering on unhealthy. I know that's not going to happen but this slow building process crap is just that. Crap. Any process that takes more than three years to start producing wins on a better than .500 level is inadequate in todays game, in my opinion. It can be done in two years and it happens often enough that I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for that.

Hey, man, as long as we're on the right track (and the stadium keeps selling out), I don't see a problem here. :texflag:

And the beat goes on... :ant:

bah007
03-27-2014, 08:36 AM
Yeah. Slow and steady wins the race. I mean, look how well we've been doing that since 2002. Look how long our last winning "era" lasted. WoooHooo!

The Texans need to pursue winning like their lives depended on it and with an obsession bordering on unhealthy. I know that's not going to happen but this slow building process crap is just that. Crap. Any process that takes more than three years to start producing wins on a better than .500 level is inadequate in todays game, in my opinion. It can be done in two years and it happens often enough that I don't think it's unreasonable to hope for that.

That's what I always felt but not any longer. I'm leaning to the opposite way now. If O'Brien doesn't do great in 2-3 years, can him and start over. If we draft a QB and he ends up looking more like Bradford than Luck...draft another one. My patience ran out with Capers/Carr & Kubiak/Schaub. Close just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

I'm not sure where the two of you are disagreeing with my statement.

I'm not talking about some slow three year rebuild.

I'm talking about shedding the dead weight right now and taking our lumps for one season. Instead of dragging this out into a multi-year rebuild, let's try to get rid of anyone who isn't part of the long term plan and start bringing in guys who are. Will we suck next year? Yeah, probably. But let's get the foundation built right now so we can start to have some continued success around here.

Hervoyel
03-27-2014, 09:18 AM
I'm not sure where the two of you are disagreeing with my statement.

I'm not talking about some slow three year rebuild.

I'm talking about shedding the dead weight right now and taking our lumps for one season. Instead of dragging this out into a multi-year rebuild, let's try to get rid of anyone who isn't part of the long term plan and start bringing in guys who are. Will we suck next year? Yeah, probably. But let's get the foundation built right now so we can start to have some continued success around here.

We're all on the same page. We just have different ways of expressing it. :turtle:

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2014, 10:54 AM
I'm not sure where the two of you are disagreeing with my statement.

I'm not talking about some slow three year rebuild.

I'm talking about shedding the dead weight right now and taking our lumps for one season. Instead of dragging this out into a multi-year rebuild, let's try to get rid of anyone who isn't part of the long term plan and start bringing in guys who are. Will we suck next year? Yeah, probably. But let's get the foundation built right now so we can start to have some continued success around here.

This is where I'm at with this.

I'm not in the camp where I expect an immediate turn around. It would be nice. But I'm not expecting more than a season to get this team rebuilt in the O'Brien/RAC mold.

infantrycak
03-27-2014, 11:03 AM
This is where I'm at with this.

I'm not in the camp where I expect an immediate turn around. It would be nice. But I'm not expecting more than a season to get this team rebuilt in the O'Brien/RAC mold.

Exactly. This 2-14 team is not the same as the 2-14 team Kubiak took over. I don't expect to look at the roster going into 2016 and see 2 members of the 2013 team still present. I expect a substantially better 2014 to mid NFL and then back in the playoff picture as more than a just squeaked in by luck team in 2015.

Norg
03-27-2014, 12:46 PM
how talented was the 2-14 lead by capers compared to dis 2-14 team I guess it might be kinda be different cus kubes 2-14 proved they could win games previous 2 season were 12-4 and 10-6 but they also had a knack for tanking season alla going 9-7 then the following year 6-10

but Capers team before going 2-14 they went 7-9 should of went 8-8 so I think some talent was there

infantrycak
03-27-2014, 12:54 PM
how talented was the 2-14 lead by capers compared to dis 2-14 team I guess it might be kinda be different cus kubes 2-14 proved they could win games previous 2 season were 12-4 and 10-6 but they also had a knack for tanking season alla going 9-7 then the following year 6-10

but Capers team before going 2-14 they went 7-9 should of went 8-8 so I think some talent was there

Nope. Pro bowler Gary Walker -> career over injury. Domanick Davis -> career over injury. Seth Payne -> career over injury. Kailee Wong -> career over injury. Jamie Sharper -> career over injury. And a Travant for a Carr.

Norg
03-27-2014, 03:39 PM
Nope. Pro bowler Gary Walker -> career over injury. Domanick Davis -> career over injury. Seth Payne -> career over injury. Kailee Wong -> career over injury. Jamie Sharper -> career over injury. And a Travant for a Carr.

I was kinda young during the capers era so I didn't follow player to player but IMO how many pro bowlers does not mean what type of team u have... what I meant did the capers era payers have the potential to be great if givin more time or heck stuck with capers for 8 years ..???

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2014, 03:45 PM
I was kinda young during the capers era so I didn't follow player to player but IMO how many pro bowlers does not mean what type of team u have... what I meant did the capers era payers have the potential to be great if givin more time or heck stuck with capers for 8 years ..???

It would help if you wrote more clearly.

If what you're asking is if there was talent on the team that would have matured into a great team if Capers had been given more time, the answer is no. What Cak was referring to in the quote you had was that the core players that had given Capers' team a chance were all old and/or broken down. That team had gone as far as it was going to go and no matter who the coach/gm was, they were going to have to infuse the team with new talent almost from top to bottom and that was going to take a couple of years, no matter what happened or who your coach was.

Casserly had drafted so poorly outside of the first round (and even in the first round) that the team had almost no young players being developed.

Exascor
03-27-2014, 04:07 PM
I'm not sure where the two of you are disagreeing with my statement.

I'm not talking about some slow three year rebuild.

I'm talking about shedding the dead weight right now and taking our lumps for one season. Instead of dragging this out into a multi-year rebuild, let's try to get rid of anyone who isn't part of the long term plan and start bringing in guys who are. Will we suck next year? Yeah, probably. But let's get the foundation built right now so we can start to have some continued success around here.I'm not really disagreeing but I see now that it looks like I was. I'm not very eloquent.

When the Texans started out I expected a slow 5 year progression. 2-14, 4-12, 6-10, 8-8, winning record. I was pretty close until they bombed out. I expected the same when Kubiak took over. I just don't care about what happens next year - new system, lots of rookies including HC and possibly QB... I can about year 2. If we aren't competing for the division and/or a playoff spot still in week 15/16 then fire everyone and start over. My patience meter is toast.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-27-2014, 04:34 PM
Nope. Pro bowler Gary Walker -> career over injury. Domanick Davis -> career over injury. Seth Payne -> career over injury. Kailee Wong -> career over injury. Jamie Sharper -> career over injury. And a Travant for a Carr.


Wasn't Davis another one of those "got cleared by the Team Doctors but refused to cause he said his knee didn't feel right"


Your man... Pots and pans

infantrycak
03-27-2014, 04:40 PM
Wasn't Davis another one of those "got cleared by the Team Doctors but refused to cause he said his knee didn't feel right"

CnD would remember it in more detail but as I recall he was "fully healed" but never could get over the residual pain/instability.

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2014, 04:42 PM
Wasn't Davis another one of those "got cleared by the Team Doctors but refused to cause he said his knee didn't feel right"

He had no more cartilage left, iirc. He was in a bone-on-bone situation. From what I recall, the docs basically said that he could play... if he could stand the pain.

It wasn't like he wimped out or didn't have the heart for it.

Norg
03-27-2014, 05:45 PM
so we can pretty much agree it will take BOB about 2 years 2 get this team back into championship level team


heck it took Kubes 5 years so yeahhh unless BOB is the next GOAT coach IDK and he does not even have his OWN GM

Thorn
03-27-2014, 05:51 PM
Are we rebuilding?

I'm quite certain the 2017 Super Bowl location was discussed in the interview with O'Brien. LOL

thunderkyss
04-10-2014, 07:43 AM
Tania Ganguli on ESPN re. SB odds:The Texans have remained at 30-1, second in the division to the Indianapolis Colts who checked in at 25-1 on April 7. Tuley cited Indianapolis as a team that might be worth a flier, "unless the Texans finally play up to their potential." The Titans' Super Bowl odds are 60-1 and the Jaguars' are 200-1.


Thanks doc... seems to reitterate what I've been thinking about 2014. We may not be very good. We have huge holes all over our roster, but at least 9 teams on our schedule are as bad, if not worse than we are.

It's an opportunity, I think, to help continue to build the habit of winning. I know OB is going to try to win every game next season. Wouldn't be worth a darn if he didn't. I know the roster isn't going to look exactly like he wants. But he'll deal with it.

I know Andre likes to win, hates to lose. I know Jj & Cush feel the same. We most likely won't be title contenders next season, but we don't need to be to have a winning record against the teams we'll be facing.