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nunusguy
07-19-2005, 08:46 AM
""He's as feared with the ball in his hands as any quarterback in the history of the game," Kiper said. "He's a righthanded Michael Vick. Had there been no Michael Vick, Vince Young would have been the greatest multidimensional quarterback to ever play college football."
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3271782
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Sounds like Mel likes him. I dunno...who he play for and what position he plays in the NFL remains a mystery, but if Matt Jones is a first rounder I'm confidant VY goes somewhere in the top round, just a question of how high.

Huge
07-19-2005, 02:21 PM
It depends on what Young wants to do. If he wants to leave early but refuses to play WR, then he's not going in the first round. If he stays for his senior season and improves his passing, he could be taken in the first round as a QB in '07.

Texas_Thrill
07-21-2005, 03:19 AM
If he improves his passing he will be the FIRST player taken period.

Huge
07-21-2005, 09:29 AM
He would have to improve his passing by leaps and bounds for a team to take him as a QB over Matt Leinart.

Unless you're talking the '07 draft. That'd give him two more years to work on his passing. I still don't think that's enough time to go #1 overall but it'd certainly help his stock.

El Tejano
07-21-2005, 03:00 PM
He needs to concentrate on becoming a better passer because alot of teams will be looking for QBs by the time he is ready for the draft.

BuffSoldier
07-21-2005, 10:09 PM
OK, I will tell you right now that I am a little bias on the situation because I yahe met VY personally, and my best friend of 10 years, Keith Young, is VY's first cousin, so I have met him personally 4 or 5 times.

But my opinion is, VY has the talent to be the top player taken in the draft period. Vince has shown a rocket arm, but has questionable accuracy and decision making, but so did Vick, and Vince will have the best o-line in the NCAA this year and tons of time, a good RB in selvin young and a legitimate deep threat in Jordan Shipley, who has, as ive heard, had a very good spring. He will also have an improved Limas Sweed who can also stretch the field and make plays underneath. VY has the ability and he has so much set up around him for success, now it all boils down to will he execute.



But I wish he had Roy BJ and Sloan back. :pigfly:

TexansCanes
07-21-2005, 11:49 PM
no one has ever questioned this guy's talent, but he isn't going to be the first player taken this year, this is the nfl not the nba. i have alwaysed liked vince (even though he went to ut) and have followed him since his days at madison. vick might not have been a great passer but he was able to get it done when it was needed and didn't make many mistakes, which is what i think vince needs to improve on along with accuracy. he showed some of that in the rose bowl, plus his receivers dropped a few. we will see how well he has improved early this year when they play osu, which should be a great game, i think it will be a defensive struggle.

kbourda
07-22-2005, 12:38 AM
no one has ever questioned this guy's talent, but he isn't going to be the first player taken this year, this is the nfl not the nba. i have alwaysed liked vince (even though he went to ut) and have followed him since his days at madison. vick might not have been a great passer but he was able to get it done when it was needed and didn't make many mistakes, which is what i think vince needs to improve on along with accuracy. he showed some of that in the rose bowl, plus his receivers dropped a few. we will see how well he has improved early this year when they play osu, which should be a great game, i think it will be a defensive struggle.

I'll put it to you like this, if Young has a great season, he will be the 1st pick. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't he complete 60% of his passes last year? But this is a very telling year for him and the Longhorns. If he goes to the Horseshoe and pulls a win out of his arm and turn around and beat Oklahoma, look out.

kbourda
07-22-2005, 12:40 AM
He would have to improve his passing by leaps and bounds for a team to take him as a QB over Matt Leinart.

Unless you're talking the '07 draft. That'd give him two more years to work on his passing. I still don't think that's enough time to go #1 overall but it'd certainly help his stock.
This is just me talking but i'd take him over Leinart right now.

TexansCanes
07-22-2005, 01:20 AM
This is just me talking but i'd take him over Leinart right now.

yeah it is just you talking, especially if leinart wins another title this year. not that matt is a can't miss prospect, but more so than vince. the only way he can be the number one player is as qb and i don't think he has shown enough to be a qb in the nfl. yeah he has completed 60% but that doesn't always tell the whole story. he needs to cut down on the mistakes and stay in the pocket. he had a great rose bowl but a lot of plays were just a drop back and run situation.

Huge
07-22-2005, 09:06 AM
OK, I will tell you right now that I am a little bias on the situation because I yahe met VY personally, and my best friend of 10 years, Keith Young, is VY's first cousin, so I have met him personally 4 or 5 times.

But my opinion is, VY has the talent to be the top player taken in the draft period. Vince has shown a rocket arm, but has questionable accuracy and decision making, but so did Vick, and Vince will have the best o-line in the NCAA this year and tons of time, a good RB in selvin young and a legitimate deep threat in Jordan Shipley, who has, as ive heard, had a very good spring. He will also have an improved Limas Sweed who can also stretch the field and make plays underneath. VY has the ability and he has so much set up around him for success, now it all boils down to will he execute.

I agree he has the talent to be the top player in the draft. But he's not going to be. Teams don't take QBs just because they can run the ball better than any other QB (Vince in nowhere near Vick's league in terms of passing).

And his accuracy isn't questionable, it's bad.

I'll put it to you like this, if Young has a great season, he will be the 1st pick. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't he complete 60% of his passes last year? But this is a very telling year for him and the Longhorns. If he goes to the Horseshoe and pulls a win out of his arm and turn around and beat Oklahoma, look out.

Define a "great" season.

His completion percentage is not a telling sign of his accuracy. Especially not in the offense Texas runs where so many passes are short dump-offs. If you want, I've got a clip of Texas' last drive before the 2nd half against Oklahoma State this past season. I believe Vince was 5-6 passing on that drive. But none of his passes were on target. Sure the WRs/TEs caught the ball but all of them either had to stop their route or reach back to catch it. Shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll send it over to you. Believe me when I say that pro scouts look at a helluvalot more than just completion percentage when they're looking at a QBs ability to put the ball where it should be.

This is just me talking but i'd take him over Leinart right now.

Well this is just me talking, but there's no way in hell you'd ever be the GM of my NFL team. ;)

BringItOn
07-22-2005, 02:56 PM
I agree he has the talent to be the top player in the draft. But he's not going to be. Teams don't take QBs just because they can run the ball better than any other QB (Vince in nowhere near Vick's league in terms of passing).

To not be in Vick's 'league' when it comes to passing could be misconstrued as a compliment. The Falcons had the 3rd worst passing offense last season. Yes, they can run the heck out of the ball (and why throw when you can run), but Vick has not proven himself to even be an average passer yet.

I completely agree that Young's accuracy is mediocre. Further, while he can throw the ball deep, I've really not seen him throw the ball hard. Vick didn't have a great reputation himself, though. I remember speculation when Vick was drafted that he might not be chosen to play QB which shows how little confidence people had in his passing ability.

Barring injury, I think best case Young gets a high draft pick as QB, worst case a not quite-as-high pick as a WR.

Youngstown Colt
07-22-2005, 03:10 PM
To not be in Vick's 'league' when it comes to passing could be misconstrued as a compliment. The Falcons had the 3rd worst passing offense last season. Yes, they can run the heck out of the ball (and why throw when you can run), but Vick has not proven himself to even be an average passer yet.But in college, he was far better than Vince, and that's all that mattered.

Huge
07-22-2005, 03:11 PM
Yeah, I should've worded differently. Vince is not in Vick's league throwing the ball since neither of them should be considered "passers".

He doesn't have Vick's arm strength (not saying much given Vick's ample arm strength). And his accuracy is not as good as Vick's either (saying quite a bit given Vick's lack of much).

Panther5407
07-22-2005, 04:00 PM
I'll put it to you like this, if Young has a great season, he will be the 1st pick. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't he complete 60% of his passes last year? But this is a very telling year for him and the Longhorns. If he goes to the Horseshoe and pulls a win out of his arm and turn around and beat Oklahoma, look out.

Lets look at that 60%, out of the 148 completions vince had, 88 of those passes where to none wr people (TE, RB, FB) or in other word alot of dump off passes. That means 60% of his completions where not to a reciever. vince gets alot of his completions off of boot leg passes because of people worrying more about his legs than than his arm. He has so much talent but to become the #1 overall pick, he has to have some sort of pocket pressence which should be easy under one of the top rated lines in the nation.

kbourda
07-22-2005, 04:36 PM
Lets look at that 60%, out of the 148 completions vince had, 88 of those passes where to none wr people (TE, RB, FB) or in other word alot of dump off passes. That means 60% of his completions where not to a reciever. vince gets alot of his completions off of boot leg passes because of people worrying more about his legs than than his arm. He has so much talent but to become the #1 overall pick, he has to have some sort of pocket pressence which should be easy under one of the top rated lines in the nation.
Since when has moving the ball "by any means necessary" a bad thing. I see Tom Brady do it all the time. But I guess Young should be placed on a higher bar though, right? And furthermore Phil Simms, who has the highest completion percentage in SB history, for his whole career nickle and dimed his way down the field. By the way, much like Tom Brady does. I know the sexy thing is to chuck 50 yard bombs for TD's. But the way I see it it's all about wins, matter not how it gets done.

Panther5407
07-22-2005, 04:53 PM
Since when has moving the ball "by any means necessary" a bad thing. I see Tom Brady do it all the time. But I guess Young should be placed on a higher bar though, right? And furthermore Phil Simms, who has the highest completion percentage in SB history, for his whole career nickle and dimed his way down the field. By the way, much like Tom Brady does. I know the sexy thing is to chuck 50 yard bombs for TD's. But the way I see it it's all about wins, matter not how it gets done.

I thought we were talking about vince's passing ability, not wins.

Huge
07-22-2005, 05:29 PM
Racking up a lot of wins in college sure didn't do much for the NFL careers of Scott Frost and Eric Crouch.

kbourda
07-22-2005, 06:55 PM
Racking up a lot of wins in college sure didn't do much for the NFL careers of Scott Frost and Eric Crouch.
Neither did Klingler, Ware, Detmer (take your pick), Toretta, Grossman, Leaf, Huepel, White, Richardson, Kosar, Testaverde, Wuerfel, and on and on.

Huge
07-22-2005, 08:53 PM
So your point ("But the way I see it it's all about wins, matter not how it gets done.") is relevant, how?

TexansCanes
07-23-2005, 01:38 AM
once again no one is doubting his ability as a college qb, one of the best in the nation, but that doesn't always translate into the nfl. why did you put grossman on that list? he sat out his first year to learn the position and then tore his acl, he is not in the same conversation as leaf. plus he plays for the bears. the reason why the short completions came up is becuase alot of his completions are short ones that are a high percentage which would then inflate the completion percentage some. nothing wrong with that, but just another reason why that stat might be a little misleading.

Texas_Thrill
07-23-2005, 01:38 AM
I'm actually speaking of 2 years from now that he's be the first player taken.

I like VY upside but there is NO WAY! I'd take him over Matt if he came out after this year. He'd have to do something just pheonomenal. Like pass for 4000 with 65% and 4-1 TD-INT ratio and even then I'd have to look at the schedule he did it against.

Let's just say I'm looking 2 years ahead and not 2006. But I think he will be the #1 pick in 2007 if not that he'll be first qb taken.

BuffSoldier
07-24-2005, 02:48 AM
Personally i say give VY some solid recievers and let him shoe his skills. Yeah, people can say well what about when he had Roy,BJ, and Sloan, well he was a freshman then and still found a way to win, he has a weird throwning motion, but so does phillip rivers and although unproven, he was a top draft pick. I am i the only one who remembers VY's impressive passing display against michigan in the rose bowl last year whos secondairy happened to have 2 first day picks in this years draft. While he did only throw for 180 yards he did have 57% completion and a TD even though I can remember off hand at least 4 godd passes that were dropped by his receivers. So subtract the drops and change that to say 220 yards 62% completions and a TD, and that sounds like a pretty nice game throwing the ball for someone who has horrible accuracy.

Wolf
07-24-2005, 08:47 AM
against michigan. I remember the ease of him running all over that defense..he was definitely a man among boys on that day

Huge
07-24-2005, 04:00 PM
Personally i say give VY some solid recievers and let him shoe his skills. Yeah, people can say well what about when he had Roy,BJ, and Sloan, well he was a freshman then and still found a way to win, he has a weird throwning motion, but so does phillip rivers and although unproven, he was a top draft pick. I am i the only one who remembers VY's impressive passing display against michigan in the rose bowl last year whos secondairy happened to have 2 first day picks in this years draft. While he did only throw for 180 yards he did have 57% completion and a TD even though I can remember off hand at least 4 godd passes that were dropped by his receivers. So subtract the drops and change that to say 220 yards 62% completions and a TD, and that sounds like a pretty nice game throwing the ball for someone who has horrible accuracy.
A. When Vince was a freshman, he was benched in the Holiday Bowl because of his ineffectiveness against Wazzu's blitz. Explain how that's "finding a way to win".

B. How was Phillip Rivers "unproven"? You can read his bio here. (http://www.chargers.com/team/roster_details.cfm?last_name=Rivers&first_name=Philip) They mention his collegiate accomplishments. Small things like 2nd leading passer in NCAA history with 13,484 passing yards, NCAA record 51 starts at quarterback, tied for fifth in NCAA history with 95 touchdown passes. "Unproven"????

C. Yes, you might be the only one that remembers his "impressive passing display" in the Rose Bowl because most aren't going to consider it "impressive". And again, high completion percentage does not translate to good accuracy. It's not what the scouts are looking at. How often does Vince hit his receivers in stride (not very often)? How often do they have to stop, slow down, reach back or do anything else that hampers their forward momentum in order to catch the ball (quite frequently)?

His lack of accuracy is no mystery. Everybody knows he struggles with it. If it wasn't so obvious, you wouldn't hear anything about it. You'd see stories on ESPN about how he's going to be the #1 pick out of the draft because he's got the total package. So do you know why there's questions as to whether or not he'll even be drafted as a QB much less the #1 overall pick? Because he doesn't have much accuracy. Not that he can't improve on it. He still has another two years to go. But he's going to need everyday of those two years if he's going to improve enough to be drafted in the first round as a QB.

BuffSoldier
07-24-2005, 10:39 PM
A. When Vince was a freshman, he was benched in the Holiday Bowl because of his ineffectiveness against Wazzu's blitz. Explain how that's "finding a way to win".

B. How was Phillip Rivers "unproven"? You can read his bio here. (http://www.chargers.com/team/roster_details.cfm?last_name=Rivers&first_name=Philip) They mention his collegiate accomplishments. Small things like 2nd leading passer in NCAA history with 13,484 passing yards, NCAA record 51 starts at quarterback, tied for fifth in NCAA history with 95 touchdown passes. "Unproven"????

C. Yes, you might be the only one that remembers his "impressive passing display" in the Rose Bowl because most aren't going to consider it "impressive". And again, high completion percentage does not translate to good accuracy. It's not what the scouts are looking at. How often does Vince hit his receivers in stride (not very often)? How often do they have to stop, slow down, reach back or do anything else that hampers their forward momentum in order to catch the ball (quite frequently)?

His lack of accuracy is no mystery. Everybody knows he struggles with it. If it wasn't so obvious, you wouldn't hear anything about it. You'd see stories on ESPN about how he's going to be the #1 pick out of the draft because he's got the total package. So do you know why there's questions as to whether or not he'll even be drafted as a QB much less the #1 overall pick? Because he doesn't have much accuracy. Not that he can't improve on it. He still has another two years to go. But he's going to need everyday of those two years if he's going to improve enough to be drafted in the first round as a QB.


A. Vince found away to bring UT out of some holes that chance mock put them in early in the season, thats why he got the starting nod if you dont remember. I personally think that they would have won the game vs. Arkansas that year had he started the game, and what about the other games he helped win or bring the team back in, they won all but three games that season and 1 he didnt even play in that much (arkansas). So, he knew how to win.

B. Phillip is an unproven NFL QB. I know he played well in college but Im talking about him now.

C.When I say impressive, I say it is in comparrison to any other QB that can run for almost 200 yards and 4 tds in the rose bowl. He put up very good numbers considering that he was going up against a good defensive backfield, his receivers were dropping passes,he ran so many times, and Benson got shutdown that game after he got that twinge on the first play. Read between the lines, with a productive run game that day, besides himself, and if he actually had some talent at receiver, he would have done soooo much better.

i think he can go first round as a qb this year, but i doubt first overall

texasguy346
07-24-2005, 10:53 PM
I think Vince would have to do really well to even be the 2nd QB taken if Chris Leak decides to make the jump.

TexansCanes
07-25-2005, 12:31 AM
I think Vince would have to do really well to even be the 2nd QB taken if Chris Leak decides to make the jump.

don't sleep on omar jacobs, he is projected to go very high. something about those mac qbs.

also, wasn't vince pulled from the texas tech game on the last drive in 03?

Huge
07-25-2005, 09:07 AM
A. Vince found away to bring UT out of some holes that chance mock put them in early in the season, thats why he got the starting nod if you dont remember. I personally think that they would have won the game vs. Arkansas that year had he started the game, and what about the other games he helped win or bring the team back in, they won all but three games that season and 1 he didnt even play in that much (arkansas). So, he knew how to win.

A. What holes (plural)? I remember the Kansas State game where I will indeed give credit to Vince. Every other game early that season were either blowouts of inferior opponents or getting blown out by a superior opponent (ou).

They weren't winning the game against Arkansas no matter who was playing QB. Vince wasn't going to keep Matt Jones from converting 3rd and 30s. Vince wasn't going to keep Arkansas from racking up over 260 rushing yards. Mock passed for over 260 yards with 3 TDs and no INTs (he did have a fumble but should I bring up the number of times Vince has fumbled inside the 20?). And you think they would've won had Vince played. You betcha.

And as pointed out, Vince was pulled in the last 2:00 minutes of the Tech game when they were behind because somebody (Mock) had to come in that knew how to throw the ball. Remember that?

B. Phillip is an unproven NFL QB. I know he played well in college but Im talking about him now.

Every draft pick is unproven in the NFL. Where you're drafted is based on your potential and how you've performed in college. And so far, there is a gianormous difference between what Phillip Rivers accomplished in college that better prepared him for the NFL than what Vince Young has.

C.When I say impressive, I say it is in comparrison to any other QB that can run for almost 200 yards and 4 tds in the rose bowl. He put up very good numbers considering that he was going up against a good defensive backfield, his receivers were dropping passes,he ran so many times, and Benson got shutdown that game after he got that twinge on the first play. Read between the lines, with a productive run game that day, besides himself, and if he actually had some talent at receiver, he would have done soooo much better.

I don't think there's any question that he had an amazing game. And if he could run for 200 yards and 4 TDs in most games in the NFL I'm sure many teams would overlook his lack of accuracy. But that's just not going to happen. But completing 58% of your passes (and no, his receivers didn't drop many) is not impressive in any scout's book.

i think he can go first round as a qb this year, but i doubt first overall

I hope we don't have the opportunity to find out if you're right/wrong. Here's to hoping he comes back (I'm betting he does).

Theoridic
07-26-2005, 06:06 PM
These are 2004 stats

Reggie averaged 235 passing yards and 65 rushing yards. 14 passing TD's and 8 rushing TD with only 3 interceptions.
Vince averaged 151 passing yards and 80 rushing yards. 11 passing TD and 10 rushing TD's with 10 interceptions.

Who would you take?

I think my work here is done.

Huge
07-26-2005, 07:05 PM
It depends on what you're taking.

If I need a QB for my college team, I'm taking Vince everyday of the week.

If I need a QB for my NFL team (and there's absolutely not other options ;) ), then I take Reggie.

BTW, Vince had 14 rushing TDs...not 10.

kbourda
07-27-2005, 12:50 AM
These are 2004 stats

Reggie averaged 235 passing yards and 65 rushing yards. 14 passing TD's and 8 rushing TD with only 3 interceptions.
Vince averaged 151 passing yards and 80 rushing yards. 11 passing TD and 10 rushing TD's with 10 interceptions.

Who would you take?

I think my work here is done.

Is this post just a bit on the biased side?

Huge
07-27-2005, 09:38 AM
This is just me talking but i'd take him over Leinart right now.

Hello, pot. Meet kettle...you're black. ;)

HoustonHarley
08-02-2005, 04:29 PM
These are 2004 stats

Reggie averaged 235 passing yards and 65 rushing yards. 14 passing TD's and 8 rushing TD with only 3 interceptions.
Vince averaged 151 passing yards and 80 rushing yards. 11 passing TD and 10 rushing TD's with 10 interceptions.

Who would you take?

I think my work here is done.

I think Reggie's work was done when he threw that very critical INT on what was it, the Aggie 10-12 yard line. He must have heard the sheep calling!

And I would take Vince everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. VY is still very young and you guys are being very critical. If you did follow him at Madison, you would know he was a different QB. He has had the reigns pulled way back on him. You will see this season that he is coming back into his own, as you did in the Rose Bowl. I think the UT Coaching staff have made some mistakes in coaching VY and other QB's too. They are great at recruiting, but something is lacking in the coaching department in my opinion. With that said, I also think that Vince will stay for another 2 years and more than likely be the first over all pick in 2007. I can't wait for this exciting season!

Theoridic
08-04-2005, 04:58 PM
At least Reggie has beaten OU