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Playoffs
02-13-2014, 12:30 PM
Greg Cossell Talks NFL Draft on 790 AM (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-proper-gentlemen-of-sports-52356/greg-cossell-talks-nfl-draft-12063734/)

I've studied 10/11 QBs in this draft pretty hard... There's no QB in this draft that I've studied that would warrant being chosen in the Top 10.

Topics include: Manziel, Bortles, Bridgewater, reaching(particularly w/QB) vs. BPA, Clowney

HOU-TEX
02-13-2014, 12:40 PM
Greg Cossell Talks NFL Draft on 790 AM (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-proper-gentlemen-of-sports-52356/greg-cossell-talks-nfl-draft-12063734/)



Topics include: Manziel, Bortles, Bridgewater, reaching(particularly w/QB) vs. BPA, Clowney

Been thinking that way for a while now. If we're unable to trade out we'd almost have to take Clowney. IMO, we'd be crazy not to

bah007
02-13-2014, 01:12 PM
I really respect Cosell. He always seems to be on target. One of the only analysts who's opinions are important to me.

He seems to see things the same way I do regarding the Texans supposed top choices this year.

Manziel will make great plays with his improvisational skills, but can you survive the plays that will happen between the great ones? Makes more plays from the pocket than he is given credit for, but is not a timing passer and does not anticipate windows.

Bortles has solid tools to work with, but will need some time to work it out.

Bridgewater is a cerebral passer who doesn't wow you. Doesn't have a cannon but has a NFL arm. Size is really his only concern.

Clowney is the most athletically gifted player in the draft. Doesn't have the bend that a natural pass rusher has and needs to get better with his hands.

Playoffs
02-13-2014, 01:32 PM
I really respect Cosell. He always seems to be on target. One of the only analysts who's opinions are important to me...
I agree, his thoughts are his thoughts based on his own work. One of the best.

Cosell was more charitable on Manziel/Bortles today than he was ~3 weeks ago (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/01/23/greg-cosell-looks-at-texans-qb-issues-ahead-at-the-draft/).

I just can't see keeping 1-1 and not taking Clowney at this point. If Clowney does what we expect him to do at the Combine I think there will be teams salivating to trade up.

bah007
02-13-2014, 01:54 PM
I agree, his thoughts are his thoughts based on his own work. One of the best.

Cosell was more charitable on Manziel/Bortles today than he was ~3 weeks ago (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/01/23/greg-cosell-looks-at-texans-qb-issues-ahead-at-the-draft/).

I just can't see keeping 1-1 and not taking Clowney at this point. If Clowney does what we expect him to do at the Combine I think there will be teams salivating to trade up.

I really agree with this take of Manziel even more. I'm not doubting his arm or his athletic ability. He obviously has both in spades.

He's too reliant on his legs as his primary weapon and he doesn't play within the confines of his offense. He is off schedule far too much for my liking. I don't think backyard football will work in the NFL. He is too mentally raw to come in and immediately be the guy. He's too risky for me. I understand why people are enamored with him but I'd rather let another team deal with his issues.

I don't care what Clowney does at the combine as far as the Texans are concerned. I do hope he destroys it though so we can move back a few spots and grab some extra picks. I don't want him here. If we're forced to stay at #1 then give me Bridgewater.

Blake
02-13-2014, 02:11 PM
Thats tough to hear from a well respected NFL talent evaluator.

Although I respect his opinion, the notion that these QBs will not warrant a top 10 pick in May seems a little crazy. I feel that at least 2 will go in the top 10. But I guess we will see in May.

bah007
02-13-2014, 02:21 PM
Thats tough to hear from a well respected NFL talent evaluator.

Although I respect his opinion, the notion that these QBs will not warrant a top 10 pick in May seems a little crazy. I feel that at least 2 will go in the top 10. But I guess we will see in May.

I don't think he means they won't go top 10. He just means that he thinks they aren't among the ten best players in the draft, so if they go top ten it is only because they are QBs.

Blake
02-13-2014, 02:26 PM
I don't think he means they won't go top 10. He just means that he thinks they aren't among the ten best players in the draft, so if they go top ten it is only because they are QBs.

Thats the problem with using the word warrant. It feels open to interpretation. If he thinks these players will go in the top 10 how do they not "warrant" a top 10 selection?

We all know that the draft takes into account a players position. Now if Cossell wants to say that these QB's are not the top 10 players in the draft that is one thing. But he said they do not warrant a top 10 pick. Totally another thing.

Playoffs
02-13-2014, 02:39 PM
I don't think he means they won't go top 10. He just means that he thinks they aren't among the ten best players in the draft, so if they go top ten it is only because they are QBs.

^This.

He means not in top 10 best football players. If you listen to the podcast, he talks about the dangers of reaching -- especially for QBs -- and how that can set back a franchise.

TexansFTW
02-13-2014, 02:42 PM
^This.

He means not in top 10 best football players. If you listen to the podcast, he talks about the dangers of reaching -- especially for QBs -- and how that can set back a franchise.

If you don't reach for a QB you will probably never draft one. Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, John Elway, those guys that are legit 1.01 aren't found very often.

Panthers look OK with Cam at the helm so far and he was listed outside of the top 10 on almost everyone's board the year he came out.

b0ng
02-13-2014, 06:11 PM
If you don't reach for a QB you will probably never draft one. Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, John Elway, those guys that are legit 1.01 aren't found very often.

Panthers look OK with Cam at the helm so far and he was listed outside of the top 10 on almost everyone's board the year he came out.

This. I respect Cossell but that doesn't mean I have to agree with all of his takes either. Also, I think the case of picking a QB too high for what he actually brings to the table and that pick setting back a franchise are overblown. It's only a huge multi-year setback if your coaches continue to march out that QB when it's completely obvious that he sucks (blaine gabbert).

WolverineFan
02-13-2014, 06:33 PM
With the new rookie wage scale, a 1st round QB busting doesn't carry the same ramifications anymore. It still puts your team in a hole because they have to address the issue, but the cap issues do not come along with it like they used to.

Playoffs
02-13-2014, 06:57 PM
With the new rookie wage scale, a 1st round QB busting doesn't carry the same ramifications anymore. It still puts your team in a hole because they have to address the issue, but the cap issues do not come along with it like they used to.

Yes but it still sets you back ~3 years if you select Gabbert/Ponder/Locker.

So whoever drafts him better know himself & his stuff. In OB I trust.

Cosell's point stands. Not new. And at the time he said Newton had all of the tools: arm, athleticism, and pocket QB. He was just inexperienced and, for me he acted a little strange at times. None of these top 3 QBs have Cam's arm, size, and athleticism.

mussop
02-13-2014, 07:34 PM
With the new rookie wage scale, a 1st round QB busting doesn't carry the same ramifications anymore. It still puts your team in a hole because they have to address the issue, but the cap issues do not come along with it like they used to.

I was just about to say this.

thunderkyss
02-13-2014, 07:50 PM
He's too reliant on his legs as his primary weapon and he doesn't play within the confines of his offense. He is off schedule far too much for my liking. I don't think backyard football will work in the NFL. He is too mentally raw to come in and immediately be the guy. He's too risky for me. I understand why people are enamored with him but I'd rather let another team deal with his issues.


Manziel is much better at it than Keenum. & Keenum didn't do as much of it in college, but this is exactly what I thought about Keenum in the preseason. He "looked good" but didn't produce within the system. More adlibing than I'd like to see in the preseason.

When we got to the regular season, it's too late to try to teach this stuff, so you've got to do what you've got to do, but preseason isn't the time to be playing sandlot football. I need to see how much of my plan you're going to be able to implement.

Same thing with Ryan Mallet. I don't care how many completions he's got, TDs, INTs.... more than likely that's a scrub you're throwing to, a scrub protecting your blindside, & a scrub picking up the blitz.

However.... What Manziel does, he does it naturally, effortlessly... it's second nature. His instincts are off the chart. Like a young Michael Vick, you don't want to control it too much. There's only one way for him to learn & that's on the field. You've got to be willing to take your lumps if you're going to take the chance that he can be special at the next level.

thunderkyss
02-13-2014, 07:57 PM
I don't think he means they won't go top 10. He just means that he thinks they aren't among the ten best players in the draft, so if they go top ten it is only because they are QBs.

We won't know that 'till after the pro days & combine. All we know is as a QB prospect they do not grade out close to Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers... for one reason or another, they are too far away to merit a top 5 pick (because even the 5th best QB is better than the most talented player to a team looking for a franchise QB right?)

Luck, Manning, Rivers...... grade like 99 out of 100. These guys are 93-94s.

When the pro-days & combine are over, we'll have a better idea if there are 10 players better or not.

thunderkyss
02-13-2014, 08:14 PM
If you don't reach for a QB you will probably never draft one. Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, John Elway, those guys that are legit 1.01 aren't found very often.


None of those guys were reaches. They all warranted the #1 overall selection & in the case of Manning & Elway..... They were everything they were thought to be.


Panthers look OK with Cam at the helm so far and he was listed outside of the top 10 on almost everyone's board the year he came out.


Cam was a reach, Stafford was a reach, Young & J.Russell were reaches. Vick was a reach... Cutler, Lienart, Quinn, Dalton, Kaepernick weren't.

Sometimes you've got to take chances. This draft may be one of them. I don't argue that Bridgewater, Manziel, or Bortles may very well be the best QBs in this draft.... But they're not going to be there at 33 & most likely won't be there where their talent (relative to the field) slots them.

But with a draft this deep in QBs....... QBs with the right size, played in "pro-ish" offenses, played against the best competition, & produced at a high level. They're smart, they're driven, they study their opponents, they're leaders, they're competitive, they're athletic, they're accurate, they've all got potential.... why take chances?

Trust your board.

Playoffs
02-13-2014, 09:32 PM
...when he says Sammy Watkins could be the best receiving prospect since A.J. Green and Julio Jones, it's something that will catch your attention.
...
"There's no debate here," Greg Cosell said. "I think Sammy Watkins, based on what I've seen, is the best wide receiver in this draft."

Cosell went on to say Watkins is the best since that 2010 draft when Green and Jones were taken in the first round.

Watkins is a different type of receiver than Green and Jones. He's just 6-1 and 205 pounds, compared to the tall frames the other two have. But Watkins is an explosive playmaker when he has the ball in his hands.http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Greg-Cosell-Sammy-Watkins-best-WR-prospect-since-AJ-Green-Julio-Jones.html

aussie_texan
02-14-2014, 02:19 AM
what i still don't understand is the size business. as long as the guy isn't 5.8 then why should it matter. If TB was 6.4 230lbs he would be consensus number 1 but because his slightly smaller than ideal and a little skinny his not a top 10 player.

i just don't understand this logic

thunderkyss
02-14-2014, 08:09 AM
what i still don't understand is the size business. as long as the guy isn't 5.8 then why should it matter. If TB was 6.4 230lbs he would be consensus number 1 but because his slightly smaller than ideal and a little skinny his not a top 10 player.

i just don't understand this logic

It's not just his size. If he had the same career he had this past season playing in a major conference, he'd be the consensus #1. If he's really 6'3" which I think he is.

If he had a cannon for an arm he'd be the consensus #1.

But as it is, his strengths & weaknesses are comparable to the other guys considered first round picks. Bortles has the size, Manziel played well against tough competition, neither played in a "pro" system. If Mettenberger didn't get hurt, he'd have the size, the competition, the arm, but he wouldn't have the prolific stats the others have nor the athleticism.

That's also why I think McCarron is the best prospect of all the QBs in this class. He's got everything minus the athleticism.

TexansFTW
02-14-2014, 09:35 AM
what i still don't understand is the size business. as long as the guy isn't 5.8 then why should it matter. If TB was 6.4 230lbs he would be consensus number 1 but because his slightly smaller than ideal and a little skinny his not a top 10 player.

i just don't understand this logic

I don't understand a lot of the logic that goes on in this process and I am right there with you. I think a lot of people passed on ARod (including us) because he was barely 6'2". I bet most of those teams hate themselves now.

Protypical in an ever changing game does not equal sustained success.

Texian
02-14-2014, 09:49 AM
I don't understand a lot of the logic that goes on in this process and I am right there with you. I think a lot of people passed on ARod (including us) because he was barely 6'2". I bet most of those teams hate themselves now.

Protypical in an ever changing game does not equal sustained success.

The teams that passed on Rodgers did more so because they thought Aaron was a Tedford system QB. Up until then Tedford QBs had a history of disappointment. In addition, Rodger's playing at a Jr College created more doubt about his future. At the time 6'2" is not really a detriment for an NFL QB.

beerlover
02-14-2014, 10:54 AM
real guru. no QB warrants a top 10 pick. my question, is this statement predicated on how this prospect class stacks or in general terms year in year out each draft class? I can buy argument that Blake (elite size) & Manziel (elite movement skills) ultimate grade will be out of top 10 but not Bridgewater. :pinned:

CloakNNNdagger
02-14-2014, 11:45 AM
It's too bad that the David Carr experience (with his father baggage) has made his brother a non-consideration......he does have an arm.

DEREK CARR HIGHLIGHTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guk3kvrFBzc)

TexansSeminole
02-14-2014, 12:00 PM
Cossell was on The Herd today. A few highlights:

Thinks Bridgweater is a smart football player that will have question marks on size.

Bortles is a "future guy" that has size and strength.

Manziel seems to run around unnecessarily and consistently misses reads and doesn't pull the trigger.

Watkins is best WR prospect since Julio and AJ Green came out.

Donte Moncrief(sp?), WR from Ole Miss, is a nice underrated receiver.

Blake
02-14-2014, 12:01 PM
Cossell was on The Herd today. A few highlights:

Donte Moncrief(sp?), WR from Ole Miss, is a nice underrated receiver.

Good to see this guy getting some recognition. I would be forced to pull the trigger on this guy if he was available in the 4th.

leebigeztx
02-14-2014, 01:28 PM
Cossell is my guy. He's better to me than all of the draftniks. I agree with him and I disagree too,that's what make it fun.

In regards to his comment on watkins,I don't see the big deal. Watkins is more similar to percy harvin than julio or aj. Even those guys are still developing also. Aj green don't seem interestested in inside seam routes and julio has the drops. Watkins never consistently really ran routes and beat guys. Yes he can do the jet sweep and the go routes,but can he consistently get open vs press man and sell his route? He's explosive,but if I had my choice, I would take Evans over him.

I agree with his takes on the qbs for the most part and again, the bendable part about clowney is a little concerning also.

bah007
02-14-2014, 02:57 PM
Big fan of Moncrief. I have a 3rd round grade on him. I think he's underrated.

Watkins to me is a slightly more explosive Victor Cruz. I think he'll do very well.

Evans is strikingly similar to Jonathan Baldwin.

Texian
02-14-2014, 03:01 PM
Big fan of Moncrief. I have a 3rd round grade on him. I think he's underrated.

Watkins to me is a slightly more explosive Victor Cruz. I think he'll do very well.

Moncrief in the 3rd RD makes perfectly good sense for the Texans. Especially from a standpoint of Moncrief becoming AJ's successor. Two years in the system learning behind AJ before assuming the role. Perfect.

bah007
02-14-2014, 03:16 PM
Moncrief in the 3rd RD makes perfectly good sense for the Texans. Especially from a standpoint of Moncrief becoming AJ's successor. Two years in the system learning behind AJ before assuming the role. Perfect.

With all our needs I'm not too keen on taking a WR early but if it's Moncrief I would not hate it. He actually has a little bit of AJ in him I think. Not quite the talent level but very similar skill set.

Texian
02-14-2014, 03:31 PM
With all our needs I'm not too keen on taking a WR early but if it's Moncrief I would not hate it. He actually has a little bit of AJ in him I think. Not quite the talent level but very similar skill set.

The key here is understanding you're never going to replace AJ. Comparing another future WR to AJ is only a hindrance. Coming close to to replacing AJs production is a move in the right direction. I agree, Moncrief would be such a move.

_King_
02-14-2014, 03:43 PM
I want van noy on the texans. I think he's going to be a stud. A beast. He and jj watt on the same field would be sick. Both of those guys play with all out effort.

Van noy plays like he had dynamite in his shoes.

He's is the best defensive player I've personally seen in this draft.

Blake
02-14-2014, 03:55 PM
Moncrief in the 3rd RD makes perfectly good sense for the Texans. Especially from a standpoint of Moncrief becoming AJ's successor. Two years in the system learning behind AJ before assuming the role. Perfect.

With all our needs I'm not too keen on taking a WR early but if it's Moncrief I would not hate it. He actually has a little bit of AJ in him I think. Not quite the talent level but very similar skill set.

I agree with bah to an extent. We have severe needs at TE, OL, LB, FS, QB and even RB. Moncrief at the top of the 4th would be a great way to spend that pick. Our WRs are currently a good group IMO.

kiwitexansfan
02-14-2014, 08:22 PM
It's too bad that the David Carr experience (with his father baggage) has made his brother a non-consideration......he does have an arm.

DEREK CARR HIGHLIGHTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guk3kvrFBzc)

I hope that is not in play.

He is his own man and if he was the best we better draft him.

His arm is really good, it's his ability to use that arm especially under pressure that is the problem.

Playoffs
02-14-2014, 08:49 PM
...His arm is really good, it's his ability to use that arm especially under pressure that is the problem.

^This. Hate that it's the same as his brother, but that is the problem.

CloakNNNdagger
02-14-2014, 09:03 PM
^This. Hate that it's the same as his brother, but that is the problem.

^This. But most all rookies, including those that seemed to have "it" under control in college, show significant difficulties in adjusting to NFL pressure. Heck, look what happened to Peyton when he lost his protection. A very strong argument for us to not lose sight of fixing our OL.

kiwitexansfan
02-14-2014, 11:02 PM
^This. But most all rookies, including those that seemed to have "it" under control in college, show significant difficulties in adjusting to NFL pressure. Heck, look what happened to Peyton when he lost his protection. A very strong argument for us to not lose sight of fixing our OL.

I'm not sure composure is a learnt skill. A guy with good composure may get rattled as a rookie and recover it, but if you've never had it I don't think t can be learnt.

Playoffs
02-14-2014, 11:18 PM
^This. But most all rookies, including those that seemed to have "it" under control in college, show significant difficulties in adjusting to NFL pressure...There's a difference. Everyone has trouble with NFL pressure, but not everyone is afraid in it/of it. Gabbert's fear kills his production. Top 3 QBs in this draft don't show fear of the pressure. It's sounding like Carr might. Carr has the better arm compared to the Top 3, but things get funky when his pocket gets messy.

beerlover
02-15-2014, 12:00 AM
There's a difference. Everyone has trouble with NFL pressure, but not everyone is afraid in it/of it. Gabbert's fear kills his production. Top 3 QBs in this draft don't show fear of the pressure. It's sounding like Carr might. Carr has the better arm compared to the Top 3, but things get funky when his pocket gets messy.

just wait until they measure those little paws of his.... Derek Carr mannerisms, failure to connect/relate with teammates, the lofty yet meaningless numbers & well crafted throwing motion. give me Johnny Football all day & all night #1 rather than trade back into the first round to grab this mirror of his older sibling. :hankpalm:

Playoffs
02-15-2014, 12:26 AM
just wait until they measure those little paws of his....

Already did: 6'2 1/8 -- 215 -- 9 1/8 -- 31 2/8 -- 75 1/8.

The worry is Bridgewater, who might be 6'1" -- 195 -- 8 6/8...? http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/nervous/afraid.gif

beerlover
02-15-2014, 12:50 AM
Already did: 6'2 1/8 -- 215 -- 9 1/8 -- 31 2/8 -- 75 1/8.

The worry is Bridgewater, who might be 6'1" -- 195 -- 8 6/8...? http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/nervous/afraid.gif

David hand size is reportedly 9 3/4" good inch taller, stronger & faster, lets not forget how well that worked out for him here. ty :fostering:

mussop
02-16-2014, 02:05 AM
David hand size is reportedly 9 3/4" good inch taller, stronger & faster, lets not forget how well that worked out for him here. ty :fostering:

Man Carr played his ass off for this organization. He was put in a bad situation from the start. Had he gone to another/better team I'm not so sure he would of had as bad a career as he did.

beerlover
02-16-2014, 02:42 AM
Man Carr played his ass off for this organization. He was put in a bad situation from the start. Had he gone to another/better team I'm not so sure he would of had as bad a career as he did.

not to change subjects but who is your, top rated prospect in this draft?

mussop
02-16-2014, 10:20 AM
not to change subjects but who is your, top rated prospect in this draft?

I've been torn between Manziel,Bridgewater and Clowney pretty much since there was a hint we might end up with the first pick. Have said many times that I'm not going to fall I'm love with any one player. I don't need more disappointment from this team. I don't want to go into next year with the with an pissed off attitude because they didn't pick "my guy".

I can see 6 different players that I could make a case for picking. Maybe more after the combine!?!? I'll be happy with any of them. If they go outside that I'll adjust. I plan on enjoying the season next year. Something I haven't done in a while. Even when we were making the playoffs I knew we didn't have the right coach to win it all. I knew it for the last 6 years.

beerlover
02-16-2014, 10:43 AM
I've been torn between Manziel,Bridgewater and Clowney pretty much since there was a hint we might end up with the first pick. Have said many times that I'm not going to fall I'm love with any one player. I don't need more disappointment from this team. I don't want to go into next year with the with an pissed off attitude because they didn't pick "my guy".

I can see 6 different players that I could make a case for picking. Maybe more after the combine!?!? I'll be happy with any of them. If they go outside that I'll adjust. I plan on enjoying the season next year. Something I haven't done in a while. Even when we were making the playoffs I knew we didn't have the right coach to win it all. I knew it for the last 6 years.

fair.

what are your thoughts on Greg Robinson. I realize he is only a red shirt sophomore, but his raw power/size combo along with his rapid grasp in pass pro suggest he is not just the top OT in his class but better than last years #1 overall pick Eric Fisher & thought he acquitted himself nicely his rookie season for the Chiefs and could be argued helped turn the worst team into a legitimate playoff team by protecting Alex Smith & clearing holes for Charles & Co. if Clowney stumbles, for whatever reason @ Indy, post combine Greg Robinson stock could surpass the grade Fisher received.

in regards to the QB's I'm right with you. really love Bridgewater, maybe too much, not sure if I want to see him face the scrutiny he would get coming in as savior of the franchise. would rather see that befall Manziel for that reason alone, nothing to do with skill set per say but his skill set to handle pressure situations which he thrives on. Bortles would be a luxury pick if we already had us a QB, don't think Texan fans have anymore patience for that right now, need instant gratification.

Number19
02-16-2014, 10:57 AM
Good to see this guy (Moncrief) getting some recognition. I would be forced to pull the trigger on this guy if he was available in the 4th.Me too. I found this guy last week and in my trade down mock I have him slotted in at 3-71. After the combine I see him possibly moving up into the 2nd round.

Number19
02-16-2014, 11:07 AM
It's too bad that the David Carr experience (with his father baggage) has made his brother a non-consideration......he does have an arm.

DEREK CARR HIGHLIGHTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guk3kvrFBzc)The big question mark in my mind is that he's a Morman. Not a knock on religion, but football is often secondary. Family always come first. D.C. was not a "film room junkie". He put in his required hours with the team and then he went home to be with his family. To be elite, you have to be dedicated to the sport. What this means is that wife/family has to be supportive in this. I'm not personally certain how this works out for those of the Morman faith.

infantrycak
02-16-2014, 11:20 AM
The big question mark in my mind is that he's a Morman. Not a knock on religion, but football is often secondary. Family always come first. D.C. was not a "film room junkie". He put in his required hours with the team and then he went home to be with his family. To be elite, you have to be dedicated to the sport. What this means is that wife/family has to be supportive in this. I'm not personally certain how this works out for those of the Morman faith.

Where do you get Mormon and why is that any different than other Christians? Actually the particular faith is irrelevant it is that the Carr family puts faith first.

Number19
02-16-2014, 11:37 AM
Where do you get Mormon and why is that any different than other Christians? Actually the particular faith is irrelevant it is that the Carr family puts faith first.You're right. Whip me with a wet noodle. Somehow I've had it in my head for year's that the Carr family were Mormans. They are Pentecostals.

Still, back to my basic premise, he states that his "priorities are faith, family, and then football".

Lucky
02-16-2014, 11:47 AM
The big question mark in my mind is that he's a Morman. Not a knock on religion, but football is often secondary. Family always come first.
Wasn't/isn't Steve Young a Mormon? Didn't stop him from succeeding in the NFL. Roger Staubach was also very religious. Can you play? That's the real criteria. And despite David Carr's positive attributes (arm, athleticism), his lack of vision impeding him from becoming a successful QB. I don't think God had anything to do with that.

infantrycak
02-16-2014, 11:51 AM
Wasn't/isn't Steve Young a Mormon? Didn't stop him from succeeding in the NFL. Roger Staubach was also very religious. Can you play? That's the real criteria. And despite David Carr's positive attributes (arm, athleticism), his lack of vision impeding him from becoming a successful QB. I don't think God had anything to do with that.

I disagree but only in the sense that another priority took up more of his focus and time than football. The other priority could have been knitting. His failing was not solely on the field.

IDEXAN
02-16-2014, 11:51 AM
fair.

what are your thoughts on Greg Robinson. I realize he is only a red shirt sophomore, but his raw power/size combo along with his rapid grasp in pass pro suggest he is not just the top OT in his class but better than last years #1 overall pick Eric Fisher & thought he acquitted himself nicely his rookie season for the Chiefs and could be argued helped turn the worst team into a legitimate playoff team by protecting Alex Smith & clearing holes for Charles & Co. if Clowney stumbles, for whatever reason @ Indy, post combine Greg Robinson stock could surpass the grade Fisher received.


If you don't mind me saying, I think you are mistaken about that BL. Thing is I'm from the KC area and remain a Chiefs fan (though certainly secondary to the Texans), but I peruse Chiefs MBs on occasion and from what I see they've really not been that happy with the Fisher choice.
Fact is I would say several OTs drafted last year including Lance Johnson, D.J. Kluker, and Justin Pugh have been better, but of course these guys have got a long ways to go before they've put in a career. Fluker, the giant former 'Bama OT and Chargers 11th overall in 2013, probably had the best rookie
season among OTs drafted in 2013. Of course Luke Joeckel, the former Aggie taken 1.2 by the Jags, had the misfortune of breaking his leg early in the year so his rookie season grade is incomplete ?
Several Chiefs fans remarked that Fisher clearly wasn't the BPA in the Draft and the Chiefs were probably guilty of reaching for him since OT was a big need position for the team. Perhaps something for Texans fans to keep in mind ?

Playoffs
02-16-2014, 11:51 AM
The big question mark in my mind is that he's a...

Is Peyton Manning Christian? Denver Broncos Quarterback Prays Every Night & Before Each Game, Testifies Faith in Jesus Comes First (http://www.christianpost.com/news/is-peyton-manning-christian-denver-broncos-quarterback-prays-every-night-before-each-game-testifies-faith-in-jesus-comes-first-113843/)

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif
Is Russell Wilson Christian? Seattle Seahawks Quarterback Testifies, 'Jesus Is Always There, He Will Never Leave, Forsake You'
(http://www.christianpost.com/news/is-russell-wilson-christian-seattle-seahawks-quarterback-testifies-jesus-is-always-there-he-will-never-leave-forsake-you-113844/)
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif
Joe Gibbs was the head coach (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10458607/lose-crucial-parts-code-nfl-locker-rooms), and he set the culture of our locker room from the very first meeting of the year. As a rookie, I had a vision of what my first NFL meeting would be like. I was expecting fire and brimstone, some real Football 101, but what I got was the truth from a quiet, regal man.

"Welcome to the 1989 season, men," he said. "Today I'd like to give you some priorities for your life ...

1. Your relationship with God.

2. Your relationship with your family and teammates.

3. Being the best football player you can be.

"I guarantee you, if the first two priorities are not in line, you can't be your best on the field," Gibbs said. "Let's make it a great year. Break out with your position coaches."

That was it, and the tone was set.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif

Honoring Earl 34
02-16-2014, 11:53 AM
Wasn't/isn't Steve Young a Mormon? Didn't stop him from succeeding in the NFL. Roger Staubach was also very religious. Can you play? That's the real criteria. And despite David Carr's positive attributes (arm, athleticism), his lack of vision impeding him from becoming a successful QB. I don't think God had anything to do with that.

I think a key is how they handle a loss .

David could shrug off a loss like dandruff and say it's just a game .

Lucky
02-16-2014, 12:22 PM
I disagree but only in the sense that another priority took up more of his focus and time than football. The other priority could have been knitting. His failing was not solely on the field.


David could shrug off a loss like dandruff and say it's just a game .
Sure that makes sense. But, did his belief in God make him not be as committed to the game? Or was that just in his personality?

I just think that more time on the field and film room wouldn't have given David Carr the vision or the leadership skills he needed as a NFL QB. Either it's inside you or it isn't, and as it turned out it wasn't.

Honoring Earl 34
02-16-2014, 12:26 PM
Sure that makes sense. But, did his belief in God make him not be as committed to the game? Or was that just in his personality?

I just think that more time on the field and film room wouldn't have given David Carr the vision or the leadership skills he needed as a NFL QB. Either it's inside you or it isn't, and as it turned out it wasn't.

He / they wanted the fame and glory but not the price it paid to be good . He wanted to be a family guy and work an 8 to 5 while going to work with his dad . That's what was important and the rest was just gravy .

Number19
02-16-2014, 12:55 PM
I disagree but only in the sense that another priority took up more of his focus and time than football. The other priority could have been knitting. His failing was not solely on the field.This is an accurate description of my position. I never meant to imply that those of strong faith could not succeed. It only raises a question mark that needs to be addressed and answered. Infantrycak more articulately describes the concern with this statement.

beerlover
02-16-2014, 12:57 PM
If you don't mind me saying, I think you are mistaken about that BL. Thing is I'm from the KC area and remain a Chiefs fan (though certainly secondary to the Texans), but I peruse Chiefs MBs on occasion and from what I see they've really not been that happy with the Fisher choice.
Fact is I would say several OTs drafted last year including Lance Johnson, D.J. Kluker, and Justin Pugh have been better, but of course these guys have got a long ways to go before they've put in a career. Fluker, the giant former 'Bama OT and Chargers 11th overall in 2013, probably had the best rookie
season among OTs drafted in 2013. Of course Luke Joeckel, the former Aggie taken 1.2 by the Jags, had the misfortune of breaking his leg early in the year so his rookie season grade is incomplete ?
Several Chiefs fans remarked that Fisher clearly wasn't the BPA in the Draft and the Chiefs were probably guilty of reaching for him since OT was a big need position for the team. Perhaps something for Texans fans to keep in mind ?

Not a diehard Cheifs fan nor fan of Andy Reid, regardless from what I saw he looked pretty dang solid & Alex Smith needed improved protection to have the success he did like it or not. On the final big board I follow Eric Fisher was rated the #1 overall prospect coming out (ourlads). remember his combine one year ago & he really impressed the scouts in general too! In the end I think it was a very wise investment for that franchise, these big tackles don't grow on trees & if your starting a fresh QB in a new system its a damn good idea to follow, hint Texans :polevault:

steelbtexan
02-16-2014, 12:59 PM
I've been torn between Manziel,Bridgewater and Clowney pretty much since there was a hint we might end up with the first pick. Have said many times that I'm not going to fall I'm love with any one player. I don't need more disappointment from this team. I don't want to go into next year with the with an pissed off attitude because they didn't pick "my guy".

I can see 6 different players that I could make a case for picking. Maybe more after the combine!?!? I'll be happy with any of them. If they go outside that I'll adjust. I plan on enjoying the season next year. Something I haven't done in a while. Even when we were making the playoffs I knew we didn't have the right coach to win it all. I knew it for the last 6 years.

I'm a Clowney guy, but also love Robinson more than any of the QB's. If I had to pick a QB at 1-1 it would be Manziel. (Go big or go home)

If the Texans even think about making Derek Carr the face of the franchise they will be repeating history. (They probably will be repeating history if they pick any of the top 3 QB's. IMHO) Carr= me being done with the franchise, I cant put myself thru another 5-10 yrs of Derek/Roger Carr.

IDEXAN
02-16-2014, 02:26 PM
Not a diehard Cheifs fan nor fan of Andy Reid, regardless from what I saw he looked pretty dang solid & Alex Smith needed improved protection to have the success he did like it or not. On the final big board I follow Eric Fisher was rated the #1 overall prospect coming out (ourlads). remember his combine one year ago & he really impressed the scouts in general too! In the end I think it was a very wise investment for that franchise, these big tackles don't grow on trees & if your starting a fresh QB in a new system its a damn good idea to follow, hint Texans :polevault:
When you say 'big board", I gather you mean mock drafts and I know fisher's ratings shot up after the 2013 Senior Bowl last year, but I assure Chiefs fans "post" 2013 season aren't pleased with Fisher.
Never the less this Greg Robinson is a tremendous prospect from what I've read, but Duane Browns got several more years as our LT so don't see us using the
1.1 on a RT ?

Playoffs
02-16-2014, 02:34 PM
When you say 'big board", I gather you mean mock drafts...

No, they are different.

Big boards are player rankings independent of the draft.

Mock drafts are projections of which player the team with the current pick will select.

mussop
02-16-2014, 06:37 PM
fair.

what are your thoughts on Greg Robinson. I realize he is only a red shirt sophomore, but his raw power/size combo along with his rapid grasp in pass pro suggest he is not just the top OT in his class but better than last years #1 overall pick Eric Fisher & thought he acquitted himself nicely his rookie season for the Chiefs and could be argued helped turn the worst team into a legitimate playoff team by protecting Alex Smith & clearing holes for Charles & Co. if Clowney stumbles, for whatever reason @ Indy, post combine Greg Robinson stock could surpass the grade Fisher received.

in regards to the QB's I'm right with you. really love Bridgewater, maybe too much, not sure if I want to see him face the scrutiny he would get coming in as savior of the franchise. would rather see that befall Manziel for that reason alone, nothing to do with skill set per say but his skill set to handle pressure situations which he thrives on. Bortles would be a luxury pick if we already had us a QB, don't think Texan fans have anymore patience for that right now, need instant gratification.

I've thought he was the top OT for awhile now. His upside is tremendous. He is one of the six I mentioned.

thunderkyss
02-16-2014, 07:26 PM
Man Carr played his ass off for this organization. He was put in a bad situation from the start. Had he gone to another/better team I'm not so sure he would of had as bad a career as he did.

There were things this organization could have done to help David Carr more. They didn't. There were things David Carr could have done to help the Texans more. He didn't.

Drew Brees didn't care. He was where he was, they didn't have a lot of confidence in him, he did the best he could regardless. So good, on his second contract, he was signed to be a starter for another team.

Same thing with Matt Schaub (who went to that team that didn't help David, & did quite well). Not as good as Drew Brees, but better than David Carr.

ObsiWan
02-16-2014, 07:48 PM
When you say 'big board", I gather you mean mock drafts and I know fisher's ratings shot up after the 2013 Senior Bowl last year, but I assure Chiefs fans "post" 2013 season aren't pleased with Fisher.
Never the less this Greg Robinson is a tremendous prospect from what I've read, but Duane Browns got several more years as our LT so don't see us using the 1.1 on a RT ?

I hear what you're saying and that's the "conventional wisdom" but I think it's stupid. There are two tackles that I'd pick over any of the QB prospects given how sucky the right side of our O-line was last year.

I'm not a draftnik but I do know that Scouts, Inc. and ESPN's McShay and others have Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson rated higher than any of the QBs.

Given that we have a dire need to bolster the O-line - or whichever QB we draft/sign will be running for his life - why would you NOT pick the guy who graded out 2nd (or 3rd) highest in this draft class when it fills that need???

Sometimes "conventional wisdom" is faulty.

mussop
02-16-2014, 08:00 PM
There were things this organization could have done to help David Carr more. They didn't. There were things David Carr could have done to help the Texans more. He didn't.

Drew Brees didn't care. He was where he was, they didn't have a lot of confidence in him, he did the best he could regardless. So good, on his second contract, he was signed to be a starter for another team.

Same thing with Matt Schaub (who went to that team that didn't help David, & did quite well). Not as good as Drew Brees, but better than David Carr.

Lets compare the OL's of each of the mentioned players. Compare the sacks total.

infantrycak
02-16-2014, 08:09 PM
Lets compare the OL's of each of the mentioned players. Compare the sacks total.

I'm curious, did you do that yourself? I ask because it shows how miserable Carr was at causing his own sacks.

2006 - 43 sacks

1 change on OL, vet Zach Wiegert to rookie Eric Winston.

2007 - 22 sacks

leebigeztx
02-16-2014, 08:13 PM
Lets compare the OL's of each of the mentioned players. Compare the sacks total.

Sack aren't all on ol. When a guy can't read a defense or run out of bounds behind the los,that's not ol fault. David Carr wasn't mentally ready for pro football. He didn't eat,breathe,live football which is what you have to be as an nfl qb. He was given a new life by kubes and he kept dropping his eyes or dumping the ball off. He went to carolina and was so bad,they called vinny off the couch to qb. He was quoted as saying he vinny watches a lot of film and his prep was amazing. After that,he just settled on being a backup until he called it quits.

Marshall
02-16-2014, 08:20 PM
This is an accurate description of my position. I never meant to imply that those of strong faith could not succeed. It only raises a question mark that needs to be addressed and answered. Infantrycak more articulately describes the concern with this statement.

It's a legitimate question, but I think it can be answered with historic accuracy that it hasn't been a negative factor.

In fact, it might be helpful having someone whose faith helps keep them out of trouble other athletes seem to find in strip clubs at 2am.

Honoring Earl 34
02-16-2014, 08:51 PM
There were things this organization could have done to help David Carr more. They didn't. There were things David Carr could have done to help the Texans more. He didn't.

Drew Brees didn't care. He was where he was, they didn't have a lot of confidence in him, he did the best he could regardless. So good, on his second contract, he was signed to be a starter for another team.

Same thing with Matt Schaub (who went to that team that didn't help David, & did quite well). Not as good as Drew Brees, but better than David Carr.

I think Casserly was so discouraged with Carr , he didn't care . How else do you explain Victor Riley and Dave Ragone . Having said that Carr became almost untouchable because Bob McNair really liked him and his family .

IDEXAN
02-17-2014, 09:48 AM
I hear what you're saying and that's the "conventional wisdom" but I think it's stupid. There are two tackles that I'd pick over any of the QB prospects given how sucky the right side of our O-line was last year.

I'm not a draftnik but I do know that Scouts, Inc. and ESPN's McShay and others have Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson rated higher than any of the QBs.

Given that we have a dire need to bolster the O-line - or whichever QB we draft/sign will be running for his life - why would you NOT pick the guy who graded out 2nd (or 3rd) highest in this draft class when it fills that need???

Sometimes "conventional wisdom" is faulty.
A team has a #1 & #2 WR in it's starting lineup, just as the LT & RT are the #1 & #2 OTs respectively. You don't use the 1.1 on the #2 OT, the pick is just too valuable for a position that's not considered a premier position.

Playoffs
02-17-2014, 12:25 PM
"When you talk about high picks, there's no Andrew Luck in this draft," Cosell said. "There is no one who would even be in the same conversation, nobody that would even be in the same book."

TexansFTW
02-17-2014, 01:14 PM
"When you talk about high picks, there's no Andrew Luck in this draft," Cosell said. "There is no one who would even be in the same conversation, nobody that would even be in the same book."

This is what we should do now I guess. Compare every prospect to Andrew Luck and when that requirement is not meant we draft BPA and address QB later and repeat the cycle the next year.

I know you are quoting Cosell BTW.

matts290
02-17-2014, 01:31 PM
This is what we should do now I guess. Compare every prospect to Andrew Luck and when that requirement is not meant we draft BPA and address QB later and repeat the cycle the next year.

I know you are quoting Cosell BTW.

I have come to the conclusion that is the mindset of most that post here. Since there is no Andrew Luck in this draft, whom our biggest NFL rivals were able to get (don't think this doesn't play a big part in this perception) then everyone assumes that there is no QB worthy a first overall pick.

People's memory seems to only go far back as the 2012 draft, despite the median age of posters here being 40+. Andrew Luck was an aberration; a can't miss, sure thing, don't think twice prospect that is rarely seen in the NFL draft. The Colts drafted him, and it sucks that they had the chance to. While we don't have a chance and that there isn't a prospect of his level in this draft now that we have the first overall...but this is clouting too many peoples opinions.

There is no Andrew Luck in this draft, no...just like there isn't an Andrew Luck in 99% of the draft that have taken place in NFL history. Doesn't mean there isn't a player worthy of the first overall pick. Of course Andrew Luck would be the #1 prospect in this draft, as would he be in all but maybe 1 or 2 other drafts in modern NFL history.

There's no Andrew Luck this year, lets move on and select the best player that we can get and stop pretending this is a weak QB draft just because Andrew Luck reincarnated isn't in it.

bah007
02-17-2014, 02:10 PM
The player who will add the biggest positive impact to your team should always be the pick. A lot of times the most talented player available is that guy, but sometimes he isn't.

That doesn't mean you always select a certain position first. But it does mean that sometimes a "less talented" player can be taken ahead of a "better" player because his addition is a bigger net gain for the team.

My preference right now would be, in order:

1. QB, Bridgewater - I see him as a potential franchise QB and we need one.

2. OLB, Mack - Many people would hate this pick but it would be a significant upgrade to our defense.

3. OT, Robinson - Many people also wouldn't be happy with this but it would fix the RT problem while also giving us a long term replacement for Brown whenever that time may come.

4. QB, Bortles - A project at QB who would need to sit for at least a year, but if O'Brien picks him I trust that he can be a franchise QB.

5. DE, Clowney - CND has raised significant concerns about his injury probability. I also view him as strictly a SDE in a 43. Any other system would not maximize his skill set.

6. QB, Manziel - I view him as a short term stop gap at QB. I cannot hate the pick because it addresses a significant team issue, but I am not convinced that Manziel will have long term NFL success. I believe that he will have a few good/great years and then we will be right back here.

TexansFTW
02-17-2014, 02:20 PM
The player who will add the biggest positive impact to your team should always be the pick. A lot of times the most talented player available is that guy, but sometimes he isn't.

That doesn't mean you always select a certain position first. But it does mean that sometimes a "less talented" player can be taken ahead of a "better" player because his addition is a bigger net gain for the team.

Let me see if I am getting this...

So for example a team that just went 2-14 because of inept QB play might want to draft a QB that is slotted at #3-6 over the guy slotted at #1 because there is more of a need for the team?

There's no Andrew Luck this year, lets move on and select the best player that we can get and stop pretending this is a weak QB draft just because Andrew Luck reincarnated isn't in it.

Well said bro. 3 Andrew Lucks in the last 31 years now. You read that right, Elway was 31 years ago. 1/32 (teams in the draft) x 3/31 (QBs Like Luck in years) = 3/992 or ~ 1/331 is your probability of drafting the next Andrew Luck. How often do yall win the lottery?

bah007
02-17-2014, 02:28 PM
Let me see if I am getting this...

So for example a team that just went 2-14 because of inept QB play might want to draft a QB that is slotted at #3-6 over the guy slotted at #1 because there is more of a need for the team?...

Exactly. Let's say the top 3 talents are a WR, OT, and DE. And the #4 talent is a QB.

You may rate those guys on talent as:
1. DE
2. WR
3. OT
4. QB

But depending on the design of your team, they may rate on your board as:
1. QB
2. OT
3. DE
4. WR

You have to be able to see the difference between talent and impact, if there is one. Case in point, I think Clowney is the most talented player in this draft. But if I were the Texans I would not draft him with the #1 pick because I believe there are other players available who will be of greater benefit to the team, despite not being as talented.

drs23
02-17-2014, 02:31 PM
Exactly. Let's say the top 3 talents are a WR, OT, and DE. And the #4 talent is a QB.

You may rate those guys on talent as:
1. DE
2. WR
3. OT
4. QB

But depending on the design of your team, they may rate on your board as:
1. QB
2. OT
3. DE
4. WR

You have to be able to see the difference between talent and impact, if there is one. Case in point, I think Clowney is the most talented player in this draft. But if I were the Texans I would not draft him with the #1 pick because I believe there are other players available who will be of greater benefit to the team, despite not being as talented.

Exactly. Don't know why that fact seems so difficult to grasp.

kiwitexansfan
02-17-2014, 05:46 PM
Bah007, why do you see Manziel only being short term?

Injury? League works him out?

bah007
02-17-2014, 10:36 PM
Bah007, why do you see Manziel only being short term?

Injury? League works him out?

The second one mostly but the first one is definitely possible with his style of play.

I don't think his skill set projects very well to the NFL.

IDEXAN
02-17-2014, 11:10 PM
Exactly. Let's say the top 3 talents are a WR, OT, and DE. And the #4 talent is a QB.

You may rate those guys on talent as:
1. DE
2. WR
3. OT
4. QB

But depending on the design of your team, they may rate on your board as:
1. QB
2. OT
3. DE
4. WR

You have to be able to see the difference between talent and impact, if there is one. Case in point, I think Clowney is the most talented player in this draft. But if I were the Texans I would not draft him with the #1 pick because I believe there are other players available who will be of greater benefit to the team, despite not being as talented.
Lot of us use the term "positional-value" instead of impact. That's understood, same concept, just different term or label.

beerlover
02-17-2014, 11:43 PM
Lot of us use the term "positional-value" instead of impact. That's understood, same concept, just different term or label.

Positional-value relates to specific positional characteristics only. QB being the most valued, then it gets muddled, take your pick CB, LT, DE, OLB. Impact is different because its independent of position. Could mean biggest hole on this team, like RT was last season or player who could become a franchise player, like JJ Watt did three years ago.

TEXANRED
02-17-2014, 11:52 PM
Who's Greg Cossell?

beerlover
02-18-2014, 12:03 AM
Who's Greg Cossell?

nephew of Howard Cosell, widely regarded by NFL insiders/people into the draft here, as one of the most knowledgeable and trusted football draft analysts.

Marshall
02-18-2014, 08:29 AM
nephew of Howard Cosell, widely regarded by NFL insiders/people into the draft here, as one of the most knowledgeable and trusted football draft analysts.

So he's overcome his family heritage? Howard was a joke who thought he was a genius.

IDEXAN
02-18-2014, 09:43 AM
Positional-value relates to specific positional characteristics only. QB being the most valued, then it gets muddled, take your pick CB, LT, DE, OLB. Impact is different because its independent of position. Could mean biggest hole on this team, like RT was last season or player who could become a franchise player, like JJ Watt did three years ago.
Beg to differ, but it would seem to me that " positional characteristics " would relate to the characteristics of the position, while positional-value would relate to the value of the position. i.e., value here is synonymous with impact.

HOU-TEX
02-18-2014, 11:52 AM
So he's overcome his family heritage? Howard was a joke who thought he was a genius.

Are you serious with this? He was an asshat, but he was a genius when it came to commentating. Do a little research before barking out the arse

Texian
02-18-2014, 12:15 PM
Who's Greg Cossell?

Greg Cosell has been around and is well respected. Commented on Dan Patrick he watches over 40 hours a week of film of college and pro players.

I still don't know who this "Nuff" fellow is. Nuff is always trying to get quoted, Nuff said this, Nuff said that but in the end Nuff really never says anything.

Playoffs
02-19-2014, 02:40 PM
Paul Kuharsky ‏@PaulKuharskyNFL
.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Kouandjio needs to be coached. Has size, length, athleticism. Could be RT, then LT. A bit like Tyron Smith.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Manziel is going to be hurt at NFL level the way he was for Missouri and LSU on film.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Attaochu of GTech as good a player as Barr now, not the same athlete. Pure pass rush OLB for 3-4.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Mosley compares stylistically to Keith Bulluck.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Barr better prospect than Mingo was. Could be in similar situation being situational early.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Mosley and Mack ready to play now, but not pure pass rusher. Mack can be, Mosely a blitzer. Barr can be rusher

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Mack played well against good competition. Had everything, plays fast. Consistently competitive.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Barr is a good athlete who needs work to become top pass rusher. Little too upright.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Mosley like Lavonte David.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: CJ Mosley big improvement from JR to SR year. Quick, shoots gaps, can cover, fluid, more physical as SR.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Clowney influences most plays, question is will that be the case in NFL.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Effort questions on Clowney a major red flag. Doesn't matter why doesn't always play hard, just that he doesn't

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Clowney can be upright, moved too easily. Athletic skill set is great, football skill set is not same level.

.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Clowney can show talent, can see every attribute of a good DE, but some film is troubling.

Marshall
02-19-2014, 02:54 PM
Are you serious with this? He was an asshat, but he was a genius when it came to commentating. Do a little research before barking out the arse

My research was listening to that idiot with the overinflated ego from the start of Monday Night Football until his last broadcast. I never believed he was anything more than a lawyer with a psychological problem (Superiority Complex) who lucked into a job on Monday Nights. (He must have known someone to get the job-probably someone who owed his former boss a favor and got him out of his hair.)

He was only a Genius in his own mind and those crazy enough to believe him.

jradMIT
02-19-2014, 02:59 PM
.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Manziel is going to be hurt at NFL level the way he was for Missouri and LSU on film.


This is my biggest fear with him. Will the nagging injuries hamper his effectiveness and inhibit his growth. The size and punishment combo are too much, IMHO.

HOU-TEX
02-19-2014, 03:05 PM
My research was listening to that idiot with the overinflated ego from the start of Monday Night Football until his last broadcast. I never believed he was anything more than a lawyer with a psychological problem (Superiority Complex) who lucked into a job on Monday Nights. (He must have known someone to get the job-probably someone who owed his former boss a favor and got him out of his hair.)

He was only a Genius in his own mind and those crazy enough to believe him.

Poor research

Marshall
02-19-2014, 03:08 PM
Poor research

Feel free to disagree with my analysis, but don't question the research. I was there and have no need to look for the tainted opinions of others.

HOU-TEX
02-19-2014, 03:12 PM
Feel free to disagree with my analysis, but don't question the research. I was there and have no need to look for the tainted opinions of others.

I was around then too, bud.

Speaking of taint....

infantrycak
02-19-2014, 04:45 PM
I was around then too, bud.

Speaking of taint....

What is it with people not looking at ages? Marshall and Texian love to make "I was there" "you're too young to remember" posts when it makes no sense.

Mr teX
02-19-2014, 04:55 PM
.@gregcosell on @Midday180: Manziel is going to be hurt at NFL level the way he was for Missouri and LSU on film.


This is my biggest fear with him. Will the nagging injuries hamper his effectiveness and inhibit his growth. The size and punishment combo are too much, IMHO.

I don't think he meant it in the sense of him actually being hurt but rather in the sense that he'll be bottled up and really not all that great. Basically saying that the Manziel you saw in those games will be much more the norm for him in the NFL than what you saw of him in other games.

Marshall
02-19-2014, 04:59 PM
What is it with people not looking at ages? Marshall and Texian love to make "I was there" "you're too young to remember" posts when it makes no sense.

Direct observation is as valid as researching the opinion of others and is actually better as a contemporary primary source rather than a secondary one. It makes all the sense in the world. Even if both observers are primary sources and disagree, it is better than using secondary sources.

infantrycak
02-19-2014, 05:36 PM
Direct observation is as valid as researching the opinion of others and is actually better as a contemporary primary source rather than a secondary one. It makes all the sense in the world. Even if both observers are primary sources and disagree, it is better than using secondary sources.

Missed the point which was HouTex and I are old enough to have seen Cossall.

Playoffs
02-19-2014, 05:39 PM
I don't think he meant it in the sense of him actually being hurt but rather in the sense that he'll be bottled up and really not all that great. Basically saying that the Manziel you saw in those games will be much more the norm for him in the NFL than what you saw of him in other games.

I agree, although I have not heard Cosell acknowledge Manziel's injury status in those games -- which some supporters bemoan.

And agree the book on Manziel will be to contain him in the pocket and have your big bodies get their hands up to disturb his sightlines. Counter will be moving pockets, varied rollouts, etc.

Manziel's learning curve, according to Cosell, will be about executing called plays. NFL OC's do not like it when their QBs freelance. I think he's going to have to stop running out of the back of the pocket and limit his scrambling in general as defenses are too fast for him to get away with that. He'll get RG3'd. Should make for great drama.

Texian
02-19-2014, 06:01 PM
What is it with people not looking at ages? Marshall and Texian love to make "I was there" "you're too young to remember" posts when it makes no sense.

Some people call it wisdom.....

FYI - I was sitting back minding my own business when you decided to call me out on this one, so here I am.

I was there for the first and last Cossell broadcast, it was basically a love-hate relationship with the fans.....(for those to young to remember).

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 06:47 PM
What is it with people not looking at ages? Marshall and Texian love to make "I was there" "you're too young to remember" posts when it makes no sense.

I'm only a few years younger than you geezers & I only vaguely remember what y'all are talking about.

Missed the point which was HouTex and I are old enough to have seen Cossall.

Sorry..... yeah, I remember Cossell. Don't remember them changing the drinking age..... what are we talking about again?

ObsiWan
02-19-2014, 08:16 PM
A team has a #1 & #2 WR in it's starting lineup, just as the LT & RT are the #1 & #2 OTs respectively. You don't use the 1.1 on the #2 OT, the pick is just too valuable for a position that's not considered a premier position.

Who else is worthy of it???
None of the draft sites I've checked have ANY of the QBs rated over Clowney, Matthews, or Robinson. Picking Robinson or Matthews would fill a need.

You're telling me you'd rather REACH for a QB that's barely rated in the top ten and let the 2nd or 3rd rated player in the whole draft because he won't be your #1 tackle??? He's still gonna start. He's still gonna be a massive upgrade over anyone currently on the roster not named Duane Brown.

I guess I'm a BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE guy. And the best players available are linemen not QBs; one defensive and two offensive.

I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.
:goodluck:

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 10:23 PM
You're telling me you'd rather REACH for a QB that's barely rated in the top ten and let the 2nd or 3rd rated player in the whole draft because he won't be your #1 tackle??? He's still gonna start. He's still gonna be a massive upgrade over anyone currently on the roster not named Duane Brown.


How do we know he won't start at LT? Duane Brown is a great guy & all, but there are better tackles in the NFL & there will be better tackles in the NFL.

I think we need to stop trying to improve the worst spots on our team & add the best talent we can find... at a position of need of course. Like you said, why reach on a QB, gamble? Take the better prospect (still a gamble, but a better prospect) & fix the OL then the QBs you had last year will all of a sudden look better (objectively, Matt's cap number is the #1 reason he doesn't need to be in Houston). Your RBs will look better. Your TEs will look better, your WRs will look better.

QBs the most important position on the team, no doubt. But so is OT. So is DE. So is CB. Draft the best CB we can, maybe we upgrade our starting corners, move Kj to safety. He can't be worse than Ed Reed.

IDEXAN
02-19-2014, 11:03 PM
Who else is worthy of it???
None of the draft sites I've checked have ANY of the QBs rated over Clowney, Matthews, or Robinson. Picking Robinson or Matthews would fill a need.

You're telling me you'd rather REACH for a QB that's barely rated in the top ten and let the 2nd or 3rd rated player in the whole draft because he won't be your #1 tackle??? He's still gonna start. He's still gonna be a massive upgrade over anyone currently on the roster not named Duane Brown.

I guess I'm a BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE guy. And the best players available are linemen not QBs; one defensive and two offensive.

I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.
:goodluck:
OK how about this, as much as I would hope we'd take Clowney, I'd still rather take a non-QB even if he's not Clowney than I would take Manziel, Bortles, or Bridgewater with our 1.1, and then take a QB with our second choice in the Draft. In that scenario, we'd still have to argue about who we'd select
with our 1.1.

drs23
02-20-2014, 12:19 AM
I agree, although I have not heard Cosell acknowledge Manziel's injury status in those games -- which some supporters bemoan.

And agree the book on Manziel will be to contain him in the pocket and have your big bodies get their hands up to disturb his sightlines. Counter will be moving pockets, varied rollouts, etc.

Manziel's learning curve, according to Cosell, will be about executing called plays. NFL OC's do not like it when their QBs freelance. I think he's going to have to stop running out of the back of the pocket and limit his scrambling in general as defenses are too fast for him to get away with that. He'll get RG3'd. Should make for great drama.

Yep. And on another team.

The Pencil Neck
02-20-2014, 02:17 AM
I wouldn't mind taking someone other than a QB at 1-1.

I think QB should be our highest priority because it's the position we have the greatest need and getting a good QB would have the greatest impact. We've seen rookie QB's the past few years come in and perform at a high level very quickly and I think addressing that need later is going to result in a longer re-tooling.

But...

Of the "top" prospects:

1. Clowney -- I see him as having too many red flags and I wouldn't draft him. If we do draft him, I don't see him playing DE in a 3-4. So I don't think we'd be going with RACs preferred style of defense but at least he'd have lots of toys to play with.

2. Matthews -- I would be totally fine with this pick. I don't care if he's playing RT or LT. Brown-Quessenberry-Myers-Brooks-Matthews would be a great line. Great lines make everyone better.

3. Barr -- I would be fine with this pick, too. Granted, it means that we'd have to take a long hard look at our linebacking corps but we're going to have to fix some things there, anyway.

4. Watkins -- I would be shocked by this pick. I think it would be a huge mistake. But. AJ -- Hopkins -- Watkins in a three wide set would be scary. We could even draft Tajh Boyd later and re-unite him with Hopkins and Watkins.

IDEXAN
02-20-2014, 08:58 AM
I wouldn't mind taking someone other than a QB at 1-1.

I think QB should be our highest priority because it's the position we have the greatest need and getting a good QB would have the greatest impact. We've seen rookie QB's the past few years come in and perform at a high level very quickly and I think addressing that need later is going to result in a longer re-tooling.

But...

Of the "top" prospects:

1. Clowney -- I see him as having too many red flags and I wouldn't draft him. If we do draft him, I don't see him playing DE in a 3-4. So I don't think we'd be going with RACs preferred style of defense but at least he'd have lots of toys to play with.

2. Matthews -- I would be totally fine with this pick. I don't care if he's playing RT or LT. Brown-Quessenberry-Myers-Brooks-Matthews would be a great line. Great lines make everyone better.

3. Barr -- I would be fine with this pick, too. Granted, it means that we'd have to take a long hard look at our linebacking corps but we're going to have to fix some things there, anyway.

4. Watkins -- I would be shocked by this pick. I think it would be a huge mistake. But. AJ -- Hopkins -- Watkins in a three wide set would be scary. We could even draft Tajh Boyd later and re-unite him with Hopkins and Watkins.
I rate Watkins as one of the two most talented players in his Draft, with less uncertainty than the other best prospect. But unless we intend to go Detroit Lions circa 2003-05, seriously doubt we use our 1.1 in another WR.

The Pencil Neck
02-20-2014, 11:08 AM
I rate Watkins as one of the two most talented players in his Draft, with less uncertainty than the other best prospect. But unless we intend to go Detroit Lions circa 2003-05, seriously doubt we use our 1.1 in another WR.

I agree.

I was just wanting to be thorough and explore all the non-QB options at 1-1 besides actually trading back (which is really my preference).

jradMIT
02-20-2014, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't mind taking someone other than a QB at 1-1.

I think QB should be our highest priority because it's the position we have the greatest need and getting a good QB would have the greatest impact. We've seen rookie QB's the past few years come in and perform at a high level very quickly and I think addressing that need later is going to result in a longer re-tooling.

But...

Of the "top" prospects:

1. Clowney -- I see him as having too many red flags and I wouldn't draft him. If we do draft him, I don't see him playing DE in a 3-4. So I don't think we'd be going with RACs preferred style of defense but at least he'd have lots of toys to play with.

2. Matthews -- I would be totally fine with this pick. I don't care if he's playing RT or LT. Brown-Quessenberry-Myers-Brooks-Matthews would be a great line. Great lines make everyone better.

3. Barr -- I would be fine with this pick, too. Granted, it means that we'd have to take a long hard look at our linebacking corps but we're going to have to fix some things there, anyway.

4. Watkins -- I would be shocked by this pick. I think it would be a huge mistake. But. AJ -- Hopkins -- Watkins in a three wide set would be scary. We could even draft Tajh Boyd later and re-unite him with Hopkins and Watkins.


Watkins is very intriguing. Build from strength. Where do you think he would go? Top 5? Top 10? How far can we trade down and grab him? and what would we get? If its fairly sizeable offer this might not be so shocking as it is the way of the NFL now.

The Pencil Neck
02-20-2014, 11:56 AM
Watkins is very intriguing. Build from strength. Where do you think he would go? Top 5? Top 10? How far can we trade down and grab him? and what would we get? If its fairly sizeable offer this might not be so shocking as it is the way of the NFL now.

Unless he has a lights-out combine, I'm expecting him to drop to the 6-10 range. I suppose he could go 5 to the Raiders but I don't see him going to the Falcons. If he drops that far, the Falcons might be able to trade back with someone who wants him.

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 08:07 PM
On 610AM today, my notes...

In ideal world should you take QB 1-1?, probably not. But if OB thinks one of these guys is worthy of it, I have such respect for him that I can go with that.

If you can generate offense without your QB having to be the focal point -- great run game, great defense -- you can play a QB like TB. Bortles more talented for down the road success vs. TB who is more ready to play week 1.

The first thing on your checklist should not be he's great at extending plays for a pro QB. If you believe in his DNA he's a freelancer/gambler, he's going to have a hard time being a top NFL QB because you can't play that way as your basic modus operandi. You need to play in a structured efficient system.

Clowney concern is his compete level, and compete level is in your DNA... you don't have to ask why, it just is. Can he at times be absolutely special? No doubt.

Really likes Mack/Mosley/Watkins -- all plug in & play players.

Tremendous respect for OB as an OC. Great feel for QB position, putting offense together, NFL pass game -- 3/5/7 drops play action -- route concepts to get people open, and what he'll want in a QB is someone to run that efficiently.

Watching minimum 450 dropbacks/plays per player. Based on watching entire games, every play.

matts290
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
If you can generate offense without your QB having to be the focal point -- great run game, great defense -- you can play a QB like TB. Bortles more talented for down the road success vs. TB who is more ready to play week 1.

Don't agree with this at all and I think it is something a lot of scouts overlook. Too many people are obsessed with "upside" and "potential" and talk about what a player could possibly be a few years down the road. Project QBs, no matter how high the potential upside, should never be brought to a team like the Texans.

Why do most young QBs fail, even the highly touted and highly talented ones? Because they weren't ready to play in the NFL. So many talented young QBs come in and aren't able to execute the teams offense, do what is asked of them pre-snap, make the throws and reads, and lead an offense of grown men. They then suffer a lot of growing pains early and their confidence gets shot as well as their fan support, confidence from coaches and front office.

Nearly every scout believes Teddy is the most NFL ready QB, so I don't see why he isn't more of a favorite to come to Houston where we need an immediate starter. We don't have the luxury of a project QB, we need a guy to start from day 1 and by all accounts Teddy will be the most capable of doing this...

How many good QBs had bad rookie seasons? I am not talking your typical rookie season, I mean an actual bad season; Geno Smith, Blaine Gabbert type bad. I can't think of any personally. Sure there is QBs that struggled in their rookie season and got better to be where they are today, but I am talking about how many QBs can you name that were first year starters, played poorly for the whole season, faced questions about their merit and worth, and then went on to be good-great QBs in the NFL?

mussop
02-21-2014, 01:15 AM
Don't agree with this at all and I think it is something a lot of scouts overlook. Too many people are obsessed with "upside" and "potential" and talk about what a player could possibly be a few years down the road. Project QBs, no matter how high the potential upside, should never be brought to a team like the Texans.

Why do most young QBs fail, even the highly touted and highly talented ones? Because they weren't ready to play in the NFL. So many talented young QBs come in and aren't able to execute the teams offense, do what is asked of them pre-snap, make the throws and reads, and lead an offense of grown men. They then suffer a lot of growing pains early and their confidence gets shot as well as their fan support, confidence from coaches and front office.

Nearly every scout believes Teddy is the most NFL ready QB, so I don't see why he isn't more of a favorite to come to Houston where we need an immediate starter. We don't have the luxury of a project QB, we need a guy to start from day 1 and by all accounts Teddy will be the most capable of doing this...

How many good QBs had bad rookie seasons? I am not talking your typical rookie season, I mean an actual bad season; Geno Smith, Blaine Gabbert type bad. I can't think of any personally. Sure there is QBs that struggled in their rookie season and got better to be where they are today, but I am talking about how many QBs can you name that were first year starters, played poorly for the whole season, faced questions about their merit and worth, and then went on to be good-great QBs in the NFL?

whoever we draft wont be starting.

matts290
02-21-2014, 01:19 AM
whoever we draft wont be starting.

Wait what? If we draft Teddy, Johnny or Blake at first overall you don't think they will be starting day 1? Even if we take someone at #33 they have a good chance to be starting out of the gate. For better or worse, QBs don't get taken that high to not be day 1 starters.

Allstar
02-21-2014, 02:04 AM
whoever we draft wont be starting.

Mighty presumptive for an opinion that goes against common sense and history of the league. You're not necessarily wrong, but to say that so matter-of-factly seems strange.

ObsiWan
02-23-2014, 12:08 AM
How many good QBs had bad rookie seasons? I am not talking your typical rookie season, I mean an actual bad season; Geno Smith, Blaine Gabbert type bad. I can't think of any personally. Sure there is QBs that struggled in their rookie season and got better to be where they are today, but I am talking about how many QBs can you name that were first year starters, played poorly for the whole season, faced questions about their merit and worth, and then went on to be good-great QBs in the NFL?
ummm... how about Peyton.
326 of 575 for a 56% completion rate
26 TDs vs. 28 INTs
71 QB rating
3-13 record.
and that's with two pro bowl quality weapons (Faulk and M. Harrison) at his disposal.

...it can happen.

The Pencil Neck
02-23-2014, 12:24 AM
How many good QBs had bad rookie seasons? I am not talking your typical rookie season, I mean an actual bad season; Geno Smith, Blaine Gabbert type bad. I can't think of any personally. Sure there is QBs that struggled in their rookie season and got better to be where they are today, but I am talking about how many QBs can you name that were first year starters, played poorly for the whole season, faced questions about their merit and worth, and then went on to be good-great QBs in the NFL?

Over the past few years, we've had a whole bunch of rookie QBs come in and do surprisingly well. But prior to Ben Roethlisberger, a rookie QB having a good year was pretty much unheard of.

John Elway's first season was bad: <48% completion percentage, 7 TDs to 14 INTs, and a QB Rating in the 50's.

Joe Montana had a 2-6 record as a starter his first two years in the NFL.

Tom Brady didn't play at all his first year and wasn't even in contention to beat out Bledsoe until his second year.

Troy Aikman was 0-11 as a starter his first year; he had 9 TDs to 18 INTs, completed 53% of his passes, and had a QB rating of 55.7. He actually wasn't that good until his 4th year. And during those first three seasons, there was a lot of talk about him being a bust and about starting one of the other young QBs, instead.

Steve Young was 1-4 his first year and 2-12 his second and he was so bad, the Buccs traded him to the Niners.

Terry Bradshaw completed 38% of his passes his first year; he threw 6 TDs to 24 (!!!) INTs and had a QB rating of 30. The fans BOOED him for the first couple of years.

Although things have been different the past few years, it used to be that QBs took time to develop and took time to grow into the NFL. If you drafted a QB in the first round, you were probably accepting the fact that you were going to be losing a lot of games and drafting high again the next season.

Marshall
02-23-2014, 12:30 AM
Missed the point which was HouTex and I are old enough to have seen Cossall.
Then disagree, but keep the manure to yourself.

Marshall
02-23-2014, 12:46 AM
Missed the point which was HouTex and I are old enough to have seen Cossall.

The point was that HouTex questioned my research. I had no need to research what I saw for myself. We can disagree with what we saw, but research wasn't needed.

The Third Man
02-23-2014, 01:32 AM
So he's overcome his family heritage? Howard was a joke who thought he was a genius.

Howard Cossell was one of the landmark broadcasters in television history.

Marshall
02-23-2014, 01:40 AM
Howard Cossell was one of the landmark broadcasters in television history.

Shipwrecks are landmarks too.

Number19
02-23-2014, 08:00 AM
Over the past few years, we've had a whole bunch of rookie QBs come in and do surprisingly well. But prior to Ben Roethlisberger, a rookie QB having a good year was pretty much unheard of.

John Elway's first season was bad: <48% completion percentage, 7 TDs to 14 INTs, and a QB Rating in the 50's.

Joe Montana had a 2-6 record as a starter his first two years in the NFL.

Tom Brady didn't play at all his first year and wasn't even in contention to beat out Bledsoe until his second year.

Troy Aikman was 0-11 as a starter his first year; he had 9 TDs to 18 INTs, completed 53% of his passes, and had a QB rating of 55.7. He actually wasn't that good until his 4th year. And during those first three seasons, there was a lot of talk about him being a bust and about starting one of the other young QBs, instead.

Steve Young was 1-4 his first year and 2-12 his second and he was so bad, the Buccs traded him to the Niners.

Terry Bradshaw completed 38% of his passes his first year; he threw 6 TDs to 24 (!!!) INTs and had a QB rating of 30. The fans BOOED him for the first couple of years.

Although things have been different the past few years, it used to be that QBs took time to develop and took time to grow into the NFL. If you drafted a QB in the first round, you were probably accepting the fact that you were going to be losing a lot of games and drafting high again the next season.So what is it about the GAME which makes it easier for QB's to succeed now and not before? It has to be rule changes.

infantrycak
02-23-2014, 08:55 AM
So what is it about the GAME which makes it easier for QB's to succeed now and not before? It has to be rule changes.

I think the single biggest factor is the illegal contact/pass interference rules.

Lucky
02-23-2014, 08:59 AM
So what is it about the GAME which makes it easier for QB's to succeed now and not before? It has to be rule changes.
I don't know of a rule change that would have made that impact. These QBs coming in are from predominantly pass oriented offenses. Even the high school offenses are more pass sophisticated than they were 20 or 30 years ago. These guys are more plug and play than in years past. Also, I think the pro coaches are doing a better job of tailoring the offenses to the young QB.

ChampionTexan
02-23-2014, 09:27 AM
I don't know of a rule change that would have made that impact. These QBs coming in are from predominantly pass oriented offenses. Even the high school offenses are more pass sophisticated than they were 20 or 30 years ago. These guys are more plug and play than in years past. Also, I think the pro coaches are doing a better job of tailoring the offenses to the young QB.

Technically not a rules change, but considering this happened after the Pats beat the Colts in the 2004 (2003 season) AFC Championship game, I'm guessing this is what's being referred to.
I give the Patriots great credit for what they did, Polian said in an interview this week. I wont go beyond that.

The National Football League eventually did, with Polians prodding. The following off-season, the league issued a point of emphasis edict from the competition committee about how defensive holding and illegal contact would be officiated. Since then, defenders have had to be more careful about touching receivers beyond the first 5 yards of a play.
LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/19/sports/football/19colts.html?_r=2&)

Roethlisberger was taken in the draft following this season.

The Pencil Neck
02-23-2014, 12:48 PM
So what is it about the GAME which makes it easier for QB's to succeed now and not before? It has to be rule changes.

As others have stated, I think the rules changes to protect the offense have helped the QB position quite a bit.

But also, I think in the old days, OCs were kinda dumb with their young QBs. They didn't tailor the offense to them but rather threw the whole playbook at them and expected them to know it. I think OCs now generally do a better job of tailoring the playbook and the play-calling to what the QB can do well.

When Roethlisberger came in, they (Whisenhunt?) made it a point to get him in motion and to restrict his reads to half the field. I think other OCs learned from that and have built on it to some degree.

I think this is something Kubiak failed at.

thunderkyss
02-23-2014, 02:56 PM
I think this is something Kubiak failed at.

I think Kubiak felt like he was being forced to do something & tried to push back. I thought he loved Keenum for a little while there. Then all of a sudden he starts trying to force Keenum into a box... as if to say, "See, he's not ready yet."

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Playoffs
02-24-2014, 11:40 AM
Scott Hanson: If the draft were tonight, the Houston Texans would select...

Blake Bortles has really been growing on me. I've been watching him more and more, I still want to do more work on him, but right now... Particularly as I learn from people I really respect and know about the kid...(interrupted by Millen)

What are the traits he's showing? To me he's a kid that, the more I'm exposed to him the more I like him.

Cosell almost never answers these questions, especially this far from the draft. Big, imo.

leebigeztx
02-24-2014, 02:11 PM
So what is it about the GAME which makes it easier for QB's to succeed now and not before? It has to be rule changes.

College Football. What do I mean? When those guys were in college,teams were throwing the ball 10-15 times a game. Now, everyone is throwing it 40 plus. So despite the vanilla and the athletic gaps,qbs are still seeing coverage. In addition,think about high school. There was a time 0 qbs came frm texas. Why? Every high school team was running wishbon or veer. Now,they do 7 on 7,passsing camps and such. I think 7 starters last yr played highschool ball in texas. Kids are throwing the ball over a 1000 times before they get to college. That matters.

mussop
02-24-2014, 03:31 PM
Mighty presumptive for an opinion that goes against common sense and history of the league. You're not necessarily wrong, but to say that so matter-of-factly seems strange.

"One of the things, if we wind up with a young quarterback, we'd probably bring in a veteran so we don't have to depend on that rookie," McNair said.

A veteran who doesn't count much against the salary cap, a veteran who doesn't mind keeping the starter's seat warm for The Franchise.

"That's tough, putting a rookie in there and expecting him to be able to play right off the bat," McNair said. "There have been a couple of them that have done it, but a number of them didn't do so well.

"I think having that veteran presence in there is real important."

In other words, O'Brien has told McNair and general manager Rick Smith that he would like to sign a veteran quarterback to mentor The Franchise until he's ready to be unleashed.

Playoffs
02-24-2014, 06:58 PM
Greg Cosell likes Ole Miss WR Donte Moncrief, who compares favorably to someone near and dear to Texans fans hearts...

http://mockdraftable.com/player_embed/4350/

Texian
02-24-2014, 07:18 PM
Greg Cosell likes Ole Miss WR Donte Moncrief, who compares favorably to someone near and dear to Texans fans hearts...

http://mockdraftable.com/player_embed/4350/

I do too. I love him in @ 3-1 and AJ's eventual replacement. AJ will be 33.

bah007
02-24-2014, 09:28 PM
I do too. I love him in @ 3-1 and AJ's eventual replacement. AJ will be 33.

We agree. Beckham and Moncrief are my two favorite WRs in this draft. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be in positon to draft either.

drs23
02-24-2014, 09:46 PM
We agree. Beckham and Moncrief are my two favorite WRs in this draft. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be in positon to draft either.

My fear is that you're correct. DAYUM!

matts290
02-24-2014, 10:40 PM
We agree. Beckham and Moncrief are my two favorite WRs in this draft. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be in positon to draft either.

You really like them two over Watkins and Evans? Those two guys are the best WR prospects I have seen since Julio and AJ came out a few years ago.

TexansSeminole
02-24-2014, 11:13 PM
We agree. Beckham and Moncrief are my two favorite WRs in this draft. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be in positon to draft either.

You really like them two over Watkins and Evans? Those two guys are the best WR prospects I have seen since Julio and AJ came out a few years ago.

I think he meant that they are his favorite WRs that we will actually have a chance to draft outside of the 1-1 pick, but I don't want to speak for him.

bah007
02-25-2014, 08:12 AM
You really like them two over Watkins and Evans? Those two guys are the best WR prospects I have seen since Julio and AJ came out a few years ago.

I have Beckham as my #2 WR so yes I like him better than Evans.

I think he meant that they are his favorite WRs that we will actually have a chance to draft outside of the 1-1 pick, but I don't want to speak for him.

Correct. Love Watkins but I can't get behind a WR at #1 with all our needs.

thunderkyss
02-25-2014, 10:41 AM
Correct. Love Watkins but I can't get behind a WR at #1 with all our needs.

So if we select a WR at #1 we need to abandon all our other needs. But if we take a QB, or a DE at #1 we can address our other needs?

Playoffs
02-25-2014, 11:51 AM
I have Beckham as my #2 WR so yes I like him better than Evans.


Please don't make me make a choice.

WRs in this draft is like going to the cafeteria... my eyes are bigger than my stomach. http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/want/t2801.gif

mussop
02-25-2014, 12:11 PM
Please don't make me make a choice.

WRs in this draft is like going to the cafeteria... my eyes are bigger than my stomach. http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/want/t2801.gif

There is a lot of quality. I would love Cooks as our slot but if he's gone or someone else higher rated is available there are some late round WR's with similar skill sets that I would love to see us go after. A shifty slot WR like Wes Welker is one of the things I look forward to the most out of our new offense.

Hell Eldeman may be a free agent. Maybe we will go that route.

bah007
02-25-2014, 01:36 PM
So if we select a WR at #1 we need to abandon all our other needs. But if we take a QB, or a DE at #1 we can address our other needs?

It's not about the position, it's about the impact the player makes. Watkins is incredibly talented. But does he upgrade our team more than a franchise QB (if there is one) or an All Pro pass rusher (if there is one)?

thunderkyss
02-25-2014, 01:55 PM
It's not about the position, it's about the impact the player makes. Watkins is incredibly talented. But does he upgrade our team more than a franchise QB (if there is one) or an All Pro pass rusher (if there is one)?

So it's not about "all our needs" it's about finding a franchise QB or an All Pro pass rusher? I don't have a problem with that, but the way you phrased it before, because of our needs you don't see taking the best WR in this draft.

We've got a good WR in Andre. & DeAndre looks like everything we thought he'd be. But, personally, I don't think we're so good at any position where we can't get better.

Watkins will make this team better. There's no way around it (unless he's a bust). He won't make us better than drafting a franchise QB... but he may make us better than drafting Bridgewater, Manziel, or Bortles. He won't make us better than drafting an All-Pro pass rusher... but he may make us better than drafting Clowney.

I'm not advocating we take Watkins, just arguing the "need" argument. If we hit on our first round pick, regardless of the position, he'll help this team.

bah007
02-25-2014, 02:06 PM
So it's not about "all our needs" it's about finding a franchise QB or an All Pro pass rusher? I don't have a problem with that, but the way you phrased it before, because of our needs you don't see taking the best WR in this draft.

I worded it wrong. It's about the biggest net positive improvement to the team you can make with each pick.

We've got a good WR in Andre. & DeAndre looks like everything we thought he'd be. But, personally, I don't think we're so good at any position where we can't get better.

I agree with that. I'm not against improving the position. But I don't think Watkins improves the team more than other players would, despite Watkins maybe being a better overall player.

Watkins will make this team better. There's no way around it (unless he's a bust). He won't make us better than drafting a franchise QB... but he may make us better than drafting Bridgewater, Manziel, or Bortles. He won't make us better than drafting an All-Pro pass rusher... but he may make us better than drafting Clowney.

Agree. If O'Brien doesn't like the QBs and doesn't trust Clowney then Watkins enters the argument. I would prefer Mack or Robinson, but Watkins would be an option.

I'm not advocating we take Watkins, just arguing the "need" argument. If we hit on our first round pick, regardless of the position, he'll help this team.

Agree with this. My wording was poor.

LikeMike
02-25-2014, 03:19 PM
So it's not about "all our needs" it's about finding a franchise QB or an All Pro pass rusher? I don't have a problem with that, but the way you phrased it before, because of our needs you don't see taking the best WR in this draft.

We've got a good WR in Andre. & DeAndre looks like everything we thought he'd be. But, personally, I don't think we're so good at any position where we can't get better.

Watkins will make this team better. There's no way around it (unless he's a bust). He won't make us better than drafting a franchise QB... but he may make us better than drafting Bridgewater, Manziel, or Bortles. He won't make us better than drafting an All-Pro pass rusher... but he may make us better than drafting Clowney.

I'm not advocating we take Watkins, just arguing the "need" argument. If we hit on our first round pick, regardless of the position, he'll help this team.

I would be hyped if we take Watkins. He might be the best offensive player in the league, he is exciting, he would wreak havoc next to AJ and DeAndre and he probably would be AJs heir.

But he would be a luxury pick. WR is not a weakness of us. We have 1 elite player, one very good one and several talented ones. And: WR might be the single least important position to winning a superbowl. Great QBs win without elite WRs. And if you look at the best WRs of the last seasons (Calvin Johnson, AJ, Fitz), none of them even got close to the superbowl (yes, Fitz made it their once). But the Seahawks, the Broncos (ok, Thomas is pretty good), the 49ers, the Ravens, the Giants, the Packers, the Steelers - all these past superbowl teams didn`t have elite WRs.

To win in this league you basically need a great QB, a line that can protect him and open lanes for the HB, and a defense that makes it hard for other QBs. So, if we believe a QB is worth taking, then don`t blink even if you believe, Watkins might be the better prospect. And if a passrusher is there you think is worth taking, you probably wanna take him infront of Watkins as well. And you might even gonna take a tackle infront of him (remember how good Schaub looked, when he had a good line?).

thunderkyss
02-25-2014, 03:29 PM
So, if we believe a QB is worth taking, then don`t blink even if you believe, Watkins might be the better prospect. And if a passrusher is there you think is worth taking, you probably wanna take him infront of Watkins as well. And you might even gonna take a tackle infront of him (remember how good Schaub looked, when he had a good line?).

Agreed. If.

& I never thought we had a good pass blocking OL. Matt was a better QB than they were at blocking.

Texanmike02
02-25-2014, 04:11 PM
With the new rookie wage scale, a 1st round QB busting doesn't carry the same ramifications anymore. It still puts your team in a hole because they have to address the issue, but the cap issues do not come along with it like they used to.

It isn't just the salary of the QB that sets you back, it is the development and the lost time. When you draft a QB you can plan on there being some growing pains and you can't just cut him after a year. While you are busy figuring out that he's not a legitimate QB you are wasting productive years of other players. QB is unique in that there is no backup plan with a player either. If you have a WR that doesn't work out, he might be able to play on special teams. Same with LBs, DBs, etc. Get a QB that doesn't work out and even Tebow wasn't much help on special teams. If you make a mistake on LT you move him around the line to try to find a fit. A QB, you give him a clip board (after a year or 3).

If you bust on QB at 1-26, its not as hard to recover.

Mike

aussie_texan
02-25-2014, 08:17 PM
seems like people are down on posey. I'm expecting big things from him this year and combined with dre and hopkins we have a pretty darn good WR corp. I agree that getting watkins would help this team because his probably a better wr than both hopkins and posey but the difference he makes to the team wouldn't be nearly as much as say robinson, mack, barr, clowney or mosley

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 11:04 AM
After grading 12 or 13 quarterbacks in the class, NFL Films' Greg Cosell believes UCF's Blake Bortles is the best (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/132013/blake-bortles) of the bunch.

"There's a lot to work with, with Bortles," Cosell stated. "I think ultimately he's a pocket passer who can execute boot action. He can extend plays, and he can run effectively if that's what you want to do... he could be a quality NFL starter." The well respected evaluator added he believes Bortles' arm strength will improve when his mechanics are fixed. Cosell previously stated he would select receiver Sammy Watkins over any quarterback in this class.

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 11:08 AM
When asked about WRs who project best to the slot, NFL Films' Greg Cosell said he believes LSU's Jarvis Landry (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/132678/jarvis-landry) will absolutely be a terrific player in the NFL.

"And I think the slot is where he will do most of his work," Cosell added. The respected NFL analyst then suggested names like Brandin Cooks and Josh Huff of Oregon. "There's plenty of guys in this draft that can fill that role." Our own Josh Norris thinks Landry could be this year's example of Andre Ellington, in terms of evaluators freaking out about Combine times and results while overlooking a quality player.

I agree, the tape doesn't lie. There's been some negativity growing around Landry, would love to take advantage of that.

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 11:28 AM
I think this is not a very good quarterback class...

Cosell said on Colin Cowherd's show (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/130768/sammy-watkins)

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 11:46 AM
Cosell said on Colin Cowherd's show (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/130768/sammy-watkins)

I think it's a great class. Maybe not for elite prospects, but I think there will be several solid starters come out of this class.

ObsiWan
03-03-2014, 01:06 PM
It isn't just the salary of the QB that sets you back, it is the development and the lost time. When you draft a QB you can plan on there being some growing pains and you can't just cut him after a year. While you are busy figuring out that he's not a legitimate QB you are wasting productive years of other players. QB is unique in that there is no backup plan with a player either. If you have a WR that doesn't work out, he might be able to play on special teams. Same with LBs, DBs, etc. Get a QB that doesn't work out and even Tebow wasn't much help on special teams. If you make a mistake on LT you move him around the line to try to find a fit. A QB, you give him a clip board (after a year or 3).

If you bust on QB at 1-26, its not as hard to recover.

Mike

Amen, brother.

Vinny
03-03-2014, 01:14 PM
I think it's a great class. Maybe not for elite prospects, but I think there will be several solid starters come out of this class.this class reminds me of the QB's taken in the first 12 picks of the '99 draft. Tim Couch, Akili Smith Cade McNown, Culpepper, and Donovan McNabb. Many of those teams hit for singles or struck out instead of getting a long term solution.

Playoffs
03-05-2014, 06:06 PM
Aaron Donald: gap player -- 3 tech, quick penetrating gap player, really like him, size limits taking on/defeating double teams.

Ha'sean Clinton-Dix is top safety. Mike Evans will need work as he ran about three routes in that offense. Like both.

Ealy similar to Michael Bennett. DE in base, DT in nickle/dime 4-man front, not explosive but has size/athleticism to develop into a pass rusher.

Really like Greg Robinson. Matthews ~Joekel, maybe better. Robinson is special.

I would not automatically say the so-called second tier guys are second tier guys compared to the so-called first tier guys. (QBs)

If you draft these guys who aren't ready to play, you can't get all excited when you play them and they show they're not ready.

It's very difficult to compare a QB like a Zach Mettenberger and a Johnny Manziel. You have to do that in the context of a team/offense. See Murray/McCarron as NFL backups.

Intriguing guy who needs a lot of work is Logan Thomas from Va. Tech, who clearly threw it better than anyone else who participated at the Combine.
various audio

TexansFTW
03-05-2014, 09:14 PM
various audio

Clearly? (In response to Logan Thomas quote)

Playoffs
03-05-2014, 10:35 PM
Clearly? (In response to Logan Thomas quote)
Yep, he emphasized that word... but Combine throws can't come close to overshadowing his tape or even Senior Bowl week.

beerlover
03-06-2014, 01:45 AM
various audio

so why not take someone special (Greg Robinson) then target QB later if disparity between so call 1st tier is not so much over so called 2nd tier?

The Pencil Neck
03-06-2014, 01:59 AM
so why not take someone special (Greg Robinson) then target QB later if disparity between so call 1st tier is not so much over so called 2nd tier?

Which is what TK has been proposing since day one in various and roundabout ways.

beerlover
03-06-2014, 02:28 AM
Which is what TK has been proposing since day one in various and roundabout ways.

There was an interesting point made by Seth (I believe) on 610 Mad Radio that the two best teams in the NFL were not your high powered offensive juggernauts but smash you in the mouth shove it down your throat ball control teams, San Francisco & Seattle. I have no problem setting the OL for your future franchise (whoever that maybe) QB to develop & run Bill O'Brian offense. Somebody help me here but don't think Auburn (Robinson) ever faced South Carolina (Clowney) in the last couple years when both played? But if you actually watch game film of both there is no way Robinson doesn't dominate Clowney, Jadeveon probably leaves the game with bruised ego, I mean hamstring pull.... Having a truly stellar OL is something fans would warm up to as they witness some serious pancake crushing & lane openings (like on your commute home from work) as Bill develops his next great QB off the scrape heap :peek:

ObsiWan
03-06-2014, 03:52 AM
Which is what TK has been proposing since day one in various and roundabout ways.
And so have I, only more directly.
Any first round pick - ESPECIALLY one in the top five - needs to be ready to step right in and start.

otisbean
03-06-2014, 08:25 AM
the way the draft is shaping up I favor grabbing either a top T or pass rusher. Given that it's a QB driven league, not only do you need a good QB you have to be able to stop good QBs. 32 sack isn't going to cut it

TexansFTW
03-06-2014, 10:03 AM
We do this same song and dance in circles in every new thread that comes out.

To all the people that say IF there is no difference between the 1st and 2nd round QBs why not just draft one later...

:clap:

That is called common sense. No one has ONCE disagreed with that OBVIOUS statement.

What these 100+ pages of saying the same thing say is if that is the case then go for it, but most of us debating this say THIS IS NOT the case. We believe there is a HELLUVA (hell of a) difference and one of those guys is going to make us pay dearly if we pass on him.

Look around at all your older scouts too, just about every 70+ year old scout like Cosell seems to start with size then begin their evaluation. If you're not 6'4+ 230+ then you are dead to that crop of old school scouts before the evaluation even begins.

beerlover
03-06-2014, 10:13 AM
trade down, take baby steps & be sure your foundation is solid, including extra first next year & maybe, just maybe Texans create their own Luck :cheese:

infantrycak
03-06-2014, 11:08 AM
There was an interesting point made by Seth (I believe) on 610 Mad Radio that the two best teams in the NFL were not your high powered offensive juggernauts but smash you in the mouth shove it down your throat ball control teams, San Francisco & Seattle.

Not necessarily you but when this kind of statement is made it is generally implying "so they get by with lesser or game manager QBs." San Fran and Seattle had 7 4th qtr comebacks and 9 game winning drives. Their QBs also contributed 1061 yds of generally off-script rushing yardage. Wilson had 1 more attempt with the ball thrown over 20 yards than Peyton Manning and just 2 less than Tom Brady. Both teams certainly love rushing but they weren't by any means carrying their QBs.

mussop
03-06-2014, 10:36 PM
Not necessarily you but when this kind of statement is made it is generally implying "so they get by with lesser or game manager QBs." San Fran and Seattle had 7 4th qtr comebacks and 9 game winning drives. Their QBs also contributed 1061 yds of generally off-script rushing yardage. Wilson had 1 more attempt with the ball thrown over 20 yards than Peyton Manning and just 2 less than Tom Brady. Both teams certainly love rushing but they weren't by any means carrying their QBs.

Stats are deceiving. Those two teams are stacked. Neither of those two QB's have anywhere near that success on the Browns.

infantrycak
03-06-2014, 11:09 PM
Stats are deceiving. Those two teams are stacked. Neither of those two QB's have anywhere near that success on the Browns.

And neither of those two teams have anywhere near that success with two joe schmoes at QB. The stats are not deceiving in this instance.

beerlover
03-06-2014, 11:24 PM
And neither of those two teams have anywhere near that success with two joe schmoes at QB. The stats are not deceiving in this instance.

I see it more of a perfect storm when all those high picks on Defensive & Offensive lines develop continuity which allows backside to play instinctual, confident w/authority, paired with strong running game & balanced passing attack with nurtured, young & talented QB's.

thunderkyss
03-07-2014, 04:05 AM
I see it more of a perfect storm when all those high picks on Defensive & Offensive lines develop continuity which allows backside to play instinctual, confident w/authority, paired with strong running game & balanced passing attack with nurtured, young & talented QB's.

I think the biggest difference between Seattle last year & the Texans (other than Schaub's lingering issue concerns) was that their game manager knew when to take chances, & when not. Then when he took those chances, he was better at it than ours... then our starting & back up running backs got hurt, & our starting TE. & his defense didn't suck.

Other than that, we were pretty much the same.

ObsiWan
03-07-2014, 04:15 AM
And neither of those two teams have anywhere near that success with two joe schmoes at QB. The stats are not deceiving in this instance.

I hear what you're saying but the Niners had success - got to the NFC title game - with a guy everyone had written off as a bust, Alex Smith, because they weren't greatly dependent on "elite" QB play carrying the team.

No team will be successful with poor QB play. I'm sure everyone here feels that to be obvious. But, OTOH, superior/"elite-level" QB play only won't carry a team very far on it's own either.

I guess the real evaluation that needs to be done is:
How Close Are We?
What pieces are we missing?

Scooter
03-07-2014, 04:35 AM
And neither of those two teams have anywhere near that success with two joe schmoes at QB. The stats are not deceiving in this instance.

sure they do, alex smith was game managing the best team in the league until injury. both quarterbacks this year averaged about 200yds per game passing. what they did well was keep the mistakes down (better than 2-1 td/int) and convert timely third downs with their feet. they did exactly what was required to let the better team win. the current 49ers and seahawks are rob johnson and trent dilfer type teams, that through several down years and great late additions were able to add significant talent and land great coaching.

edit: brain fart - brad johnson

infantrycak
03-07-2014, 08:58 AM
I hear what you're saying but the Niners had success - got to the NFC title game - with a guy everyone had written off as a bust, Alex Smith, because they weren't greatly dependent on "elite" QB play carrying the team.

There is a lot of room in between joe schmoe which is what is being argued (see below) and elite.

Smith had erased bust over the prior season and a half. Game manager still yes. He also disproves the joe schmoe exaggeration. What happened to him? - he went to a losing team who saw him as more than joe schmoe and primarily through improved QB play had one of the greatest turnaround seasons ever.

sure they do, alex smith was game managing the best team in the league until injury.

And the coach believing your argument is wrong took the first opportunity to upgrade Smith.

the current 49ers and seahawks are rob johnson and trent dilfer type teams

And that nullified anything stated around it. Wrong Johnson. The Seahawks don't sniff the SB last year with Trent Dilfer at QB. But thank you for illustrating the hyperbole being slung on this. Kaep and especially Wilson are not useless remoras their teams are winning in spite of. They are providing above average QB play. Saying their teams would still win with below average QB play is not credible.

Obviously having a good D and running game helps any QB. Doesn't mean they'd have the same success with any QB. It also doesn't mean any QB they have is a joe schmoe. The Texans were trying for the same thing. When they failed on both their non-elite QB led the league in passing. joe schmoe doesn't do that.

TexansFTW
03-07-2014, 10:02 AM
And neither of those two teams have anywhere near that success with two joe schmoes at QB. The stats are not deceiving in this instance.

With a very similarly constructed team the Texans went into the 2nd round of the playoffs led by the ultimate Joe Schmoe at QB.

The Hawks and 9ers have better than Joe Schmoe, I think they are average (14-17 QB range), and I believe almost any average QB can have similar success on those teams.

Yates was just far below average.

beerlover
03-07-2014, 10:49 AM
I think the biggest difference between Seattle last year & the Texans (other than Schaub's lingering issue concerns) was that their game manager knew when to take chances, & when not. Then when he took those chances, he was better at it than ours... then our starting & back up running backs got hurt, & our starting TE. & his defense didn't suck.

Other than that, we were pretty much the same.

hahaha, purely from draft perspective.

Big improvement with coaching changes (Carroll & Harbaugh) hopefully something similar happens 4 Texans w/OB.

as far as the respective GM's work & how they stack up compared to Rick Smith tenure here as GM I think you can see pretty clearly he has under-performed. even when they reach for a player like Bruce Irvin or Michael Jenkins it doesn't cripple them, it's very hard for me to believe that drawing blanks on Brennan Williams & Sam Montgomery could devastate a team but it did because both positions needed immediate impact players. San Fran has three #1 draft picks dedicated to their OL, Seattle 2 w/high 2nd on starting Center Max Unger from Oregon. Texans have one, Duane Brown, late 1st 26th overall. You wanna know why the Texans QB continue to struggle @ the QB position & have such a hard time in the red zone, that is a large piece, IMO.

San Francisco

2013 1 1 18 18 Eric Reid DB Louisiana State
2 2 8 40 Cornellius Carradine DE Florida State
3 2 23 55 Vance McDonald TE Rice
4 3 26 88 Corey Lemonier DE Auburn
5 4 31 128 Quinton Patton WR Louisiana Tech
6 4 34 131 Marcus Lattimore RB South Carolina
7 5 24 157 Quinton Dial DE Alabama
8 6 12 180 Nick Moody LB Florida State
9 7 31 237 B.J. Daniels QB South Florida
10 7 40 246 Carter Bykowski T Iowa State
11 7 46 252 Marcus Cooper DB Rutgers
2012 1 1 30 30 A.J. Jenkins WR Illinois
2 2 29 61 LaMichael James RB Oregon
3 4 22 117 Joe Looney G Wake Forest
4 5 30 165 Darius Fleming LB Notre Dame
5 6 10 180 Trent Robinson DB Michigan State
6 6 29 199 Jason Slowey C Western Oregon
7 7 30 237 Cam Johnson DE Virginia
2011 1 1 7 7 Aldon Smith DE Missouri
2 2 4 36 Colin Kaepernick QB Nevada
3 3 16 80 Chris Culliver DB South Carolina
4 4 18 115 Kendall Hunter RB Oklahoma State
5 5 32 163 Daniel Kilgore G Appalachian State
6 6 17 182 Ronald Johnson WR USC
7 6 25 190 Colin Jones DB Texas Christian
8 7 8 211 Bruce Miller LB Central Florida
9 7 36 239 Michael Person G Montana State
10 7 47 250 Curtis Holcomb DB Florida A&M
2010 1 1 11 11 Anthony Davis T Rutgers
2 1 17 17 Mike Iupati G Idaho
3 2 17 49 Taylor Mays DB USC
4 3 27 91 Navorro Bowman LB Penn State
5 6 4 173 Anthony Dixon RB Mississippi State
6 6 13 182 Nate Byham TE Pittsburgh
7 6 37 206 Kyle Williams WR Arizona State
8 7 17 224 Phillip Adams DB South Carolina State
2009 1 1 10 10 Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech
2 3 10 74 Glen Coffee RB Alabama
3 5 10 146 Scott McKillop LB Pittsburgh
4 5 35 171 Nate Davis QB Ball State
5 6 11 184 Bear Pascoe TE Fresno State
6 7 10 219 Curtis Taylor DB Louisiana State
7 7 35 244 Ricky Jean Francois DT Louisiana State
2008 1 1 29 29 Kentwan Ballmer DT North Carolina
2 2 8 39 Chilo Rachal G USC
3 3 12 75 Reggie Smith DB Oklahoma
4 4 8 107 Cody Wallace C Texas A&M
5 6 8 174 Josh Morgan WR Virginia Tech
6 7 7 214 Larry Grant LB Ohio State
2007 1 1 11 11 Patrick Willis LB Mississippi
2 1 28 28 Joe Staley T Central Michigan
3 3 12 76 Jason Hill WR Washington State
4 3 34 97 Ray McDonald DT Florida
5 4 5 104 Jay Moore DE Nebraska
6 4 27 126 Dashon Goldson DB Washington
7 4 36 135 Joe Cohen DT Florida
8 5 10 147 Tarell Brown DB Texas
9 6 12 186 Thomas Clayton RB Kansas State

Seattle -

2013 1 2 30 62 Christine Michael RB Texas A&M
2 3 25 87 Jordan Hill DT Penn State
3 4 26 123 Chris Harper WR Kansas State
4 5 4 137 Jesse Williams DT Alabama
5 5 5 138 Tharold Simon DB Louisiana State
6 5 25 158 Luke Willson TE Rice
7 6 26 194 Spencer Ware RB Louisiana State
8 7 14 220 Ryan Seymour G Vanderbilt
9 7 25 231 Ty Powell DE Harding
10 7 35 241 Jared Smith DT New Hampshire
11 7 36 242 Michael Bowie T NE Oklahoma State
2012 1 1 15 15 Bruce Irvin DE West Virginia
2 2 15 47 Bobby Wagner LB Utah State
3 3 12 75 Russell Wilson QB Wisconsin
4 4 11 106 Robert Turbin RB Utah State
5 4 19 114 Jaye Howard DT Florida
6 5 19 154 Korey Toomer LB Idaho
7 6 2 172 Jeremy Lane DB Northwestern State (LA)
8 6 11 181 Winston Guy DB Kentucky
9 7 18 225 J R Sweezy DE North Carolina State
10 7 25 232 Greg Scruggs DE Louisville
2011 1 1 25 25 James Carpenter T Alabama
2 3 11 75 John Moffitt G Wisconsin
3 4 2 99 K.J. Wright LB Mississippi State
4 4 10 107 Kris Durham WR Georgia
5 5 23 154 Richard Sherman DB Stanford
6 5 25 156 Mark Legree DB Appalachian State
7 6 8 173 Byron Maxwell DB Clemson
8 7 2 205 Lazarius Levingston DE Louisiana State
9 7 39 242 Malcolm Smith LB USC
2010 1 1 6 6 Russell Okung T Oklahoma State
2 1 14 14 Earl Thomas DB Texas
3 2 28 60 Golden Tate WR Notre Dame
4 4 13 111 Walter Thurmond DB Oregon
5 4 29 127 E.J. Wilson DE North Carolina
6 5 2 133 Kam Chancellor DB Virginia Tech
7 6 16 185 Anthony McCoy TE USC
8 7 29 236 Dexter Davis LB Arizona
9 7 38 245 Jameson Konz RB Kent State
2009 1 1 4 4 Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest
2 2 17 49 Max Unger C Oregon
3 3 27 91 Deon Butler WR Penn State
4 6 5 178 Mike Teel QB Rutgers
5 7 36 245 Courtney Greene DB Rutgers
6 7 38 247 Nick Reed DE Oregon
7 7 39 248 Cameron Morrah TE California
2008 1 1 28 28 Lawrence Jackson DE USC
2 2 7 38 John Carlson TE Notre Dame
3 4 22 121 Red Bryant DT Texas A&M
4 5 28 163 Owen Schmitt RB West Virginia
5 6 23 189 Tyler Schmitt C San Diego State
6 7 26 233 Justin Forsett RB California
7 7 28 235 Brandon Coutu K Georgia
2007 1 2 23 55 Josh Wilson DB Maryland
2 3 22 85 Brandon Mebane DT California
3 4 21 120 Baraka Atkins DE Miami (FL)
4 4 25 124 Mansfield Wrotto G Georgia Tech
5 5 24 161 Will Herring LB Auburn
6 6 23 197 Courtney Taylor WR Auburn
7 6 36 210 Jordan Kent WR Oregon
8 7 22 232 Steve Vallos T Wake Forest

Texans

2013 1 1 27 27 DeAndre Hopkins WR Clemson
2 2 25 57 D.J. Swearinger DB South Carolina
3 3 27 89 Brennan Williams T North Carolina
4 3 33 95 Sam Montgomery DE Louisiana State
5 4 27 124 Trevardo Williams DE Connecticut
6 6 8 176 David Quessenberry T San Jose State
7 6 27 195 Alan Bonner WR Jacksonville State
8 6 30 198 Chris Jones DT Bowling Green
9 6 33 201 Ryan Griffin TE Connecticut
2012 1 1 26 26 Whitney Mercilus DE Illinois
2 3 5 68 Devier Posey WR Ohio State
3 3 13 76 Brandon Brooks G Miami (OH)
4 4 4 99 Ben Jones C Georgia
5 4 26 121 Keshawn Martin WR Michigan State
6 4 31 126 Jared Crick DT Nebraska
7 5 26 161 Randy Bullock K Texas A&M
8 6 25 195 Nick Mondek T Purdue
2011 1 1 11 11 J.J. Watt DE Wisconsin
2 2 10 42 Brooks Reed DE Arizona
3 2 28 60 Brandon Harris DB Miami (FL)
4 4 30 127 Rashad Carmichael DB Virginia Tech
5 5 13 144 Shiloh Keo DB Idaho
6 5 21 152 T.J. Yates QB North Carolina
7 7 11 214 Derek Newton T Arkansas State
8 7 51 254 Cheta Ozougwu DE Rice
2010 1 1 20 20 Kareem Jackson DB Alabama
2 2 26 58 Ben Tate RB Auburn
3 3 17 81 Earl Mitchell DT Arizona
4 4 4 102 Darryl Sharpton LB Miami (FL)
5 4 20 118 Garrett Graham TE Wisconsin
6 5 13 144 Sherrick McManis DB Northwestern
7 6 18 187 Shelley Smith G Colorado State
8 6 28 197 Trindon Holliday RB Louisiana State
9 7 20 227 Dorin Dickerson TE Pittsburgh
2009 1 1 15 15 Brian Cushing LB USC
2 2 14 46 Connor Barwin DE Cincinnati
3 3 13 77 Antoine Caldwell C Alabama
4 4 12 112 Glover Quin DB New Mexico
5 4 22 122 Anthony Hill TE North Carolina State
6 5 16 152 James Casey TE Rice
7 6 15 188 Brice McCain DB Utah
8 7 14 223 Troy Nolan DB Arizona State
2008 1 1 26 26 Duane Brown T Virginia Tech
2 3 16 79 Antwaun Molden DB Eastern Kentucky
3 3 26 89 Steve Slaton RB West Virginia
4 4 19 118 Xavier Adibi LB Virginia Tech
5 5 16 151 Frank Okam DT Texas
6 6 7 173 Dominique Barber DB Minnesota
7 7 16 223 Alex Brink QB Washington State
2007 1 1 10 10 Amobi Okoye DT Louisville
2 3 9 73 Jacoby Jones WR Lane
3 4 24 123 Fred Bennett DB South Carolina
4 5 7 144 Brandon Harrison DB Stanford
5 5 26 163 Brandon Frye T Virginia Tech
6 6 9 183 Kasey Studdard G Texas
7 7 8 218 Zach Diles LB Kansas State

infantrycak
03-07-2014, 10:54 AM
With a very similarly constructed team the Texans went into the 2nd round of the playoffs led by the ultimate Joe Schmoe at QB.

The Texans wouldn't have been in the playoffs to carry Yates through 1 playoff game without Schaub. Thanks for proving my point.

The Hawks and 9ers have better than Joe Schmoe, I think they are average (14-17 QB range), and I believe almost any average QB can have similar success on those teams.

And I think that is complete and utter hogwash, no offense intended. There is a reason getting to the SB much less winning with someone like Dilfer is noteworthy - it is exceptional. It is not the norm. It is unreasonable to apply it as ordinary.

But y'all carry on with this ridiculous Dilfer/Wilson comparison. I don't see the Seahawks dumping their QB like the Ravens did.

Russell Wilson 2013 - 4 4th qtr comebacks, 5 (league leading) game winning drives
Dilfer & BJ combined - 1 4th qtr comeback, 2 game winning drives

ObsiWan
03-07-2014, 10:59 AM
There is a lot of room in between joe schmoe which is what is being argued (see below) and elite.

Smith had erased bust over the prior season and a half. Game manager still yes. He also disproves the joe schmoe exaggeration. What happened to him? - he went to a losing team who saw him as more than joe schmoe and primarily through improved QB play had one of the greatest turnaround seasons ever.

And the coach believing your argument is wrong took the first opportunity to upgrade Smith.

And that nullified anything stated around it. Wrong Johnson. The Seahawks don't sniff the SB last year with Trent Dilfer at QB. But thank you for illustrating the hyperbole being slung on this. Kaep and especially Wilson are not useless remoras their teams are winning in spite of. They are providing above average QB play. Saying their teams would still win with below average QB play is not credible.

Obviously having a good D and running game helps any QB. Doesn't mean they'd have the same success with any QB. It also doesn't mean any QB they have is a joe schmoe. The Texans were trying for the same thing. When they failed on both their non-elite QB led the league in passing. joe schmoe doesn't do that.
I don't think anyone is saying we can succeed with a "joe schmoe". We'll need at a minimum "Good Schaub" (think 2009) level play from our QB to have any chance to succeed. Kinda like the current version of Alex Smith.
But, given the questions we have up and down the roster, I have serious reservations on whether we could succeed with P. Manning or T. Brady at QB.
- The right side of the O-line is shoddy. Any argument here? Didn't think so.
- The D-line needs quality depth - and that's even with Mitchell and Ninja still here. If they leave the D-line rotation is a disaster.
- We need upgrades at CB because once you get past K-Jax and J-Jo (and some say that he's suspect) we got nuthin'.
- We're only two deep at TE.
- Since Tate is going on the F/A mkt we're only one-deep at RB and he's coming off back issues serious enough to sideline him for the whole year.
- Cushing is the only solid player we have at LB - inside or outside.
...did I miss anything?

The only quasi-strong positions on the team are WR and safety; and some would argue that safety is weak.

And folks think drafting a Bridgewater or a Manziel or a Bortles is gonna fix all that stuff? We're not strong enough elsewhere - ANYwhere - for a rookie QB to be a quick fix.
We need more picks.
:toropalm:

Playoffs
03-07-2014, 11:19 AM
Russell Wilson won the Super Bowl in his "sophomore slump" year. He is so much more than a game manager that the statement is silly. Go and read about what changed in Seattle after Wilson arrived. It took about two weeks or so before the team began to realize that this kid was serious -- his example changed the culture of that locker room. Think about that. Can he be Alex Smith but with an arm, avoiding costly mistakes? Sure he can. But then add his play outside of structure to beat you by extending plays or running, like he did at Houston.

Nobody will be knocking the 'Hawks door down trying to steal those WRs away, either, outside of Harvin who took 68 snaps all year. They'd disappear on majority of other teams. Through the roof intangibles, rated 4th/42 QBs in 2013 (>25% snaps, PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/)), and a ring. Wilson = good.

thunderkyss
03-07-2014, 11:26 AM
And folks think drafting a Bridgewater or a Manziel or a Bortles is gonna fix all that stuff? We're not strong enough elsewhere - ANYwhere - for a rookie QB to be a quick fix.

I don't think anyone believes any of those three are going to do anything other than "solve" our QB situation. We're going to have to get a QB just like we're going to have to fix that OL.

They're just tired of waiting on fixing the QB, like you're tired of waiting to fix the OL.

HOU-TEX
03-07-2014, 12:44 PM
Whoever the dude is around here that judges players by how they dress should get a kick out of Mettenberger

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiI5TVYCIAAfpn6.jpg

TexansFTW
03-07-2014, 01:43 PM
The Texans wouldn't have been in the playoffs to carry Yates through 1 playoff game without Schaub. Thanks for proving my point.

Schaub went out in week 10 and we were 7-3. Hardly a lock for the playoffs. Point not proven.

Honoring Earl 34
03-07-2014, 01:48 PM
Whoever the dude is around here that judges players by how they dress should get a kick out of Mettenberger

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiI5TVYCIAAfpn6.jpg

http://junorelationships.onmason.com/files/2013/05/paulie-bleeker.jpg

infantrycak
03-07-2014, 04:12 PM
Schaub went out in week 10 and we were 7-3. Hardly a lock for the playoffs. Point not proven.

I didn't say they were a lock. It's right there in what you quoted. I said they wouldn't have made it without him starting those 10 games. The Texans without Schaub went 3-3. Now I am no rocket scientist but 3-3 is a substantial downgrade from 7-3 I think. A season of .500 ball would not have made the playoffs.

Scooter
03-08-2014, 01:20 AM
There is a lot of room in between joe schmoe which is what is being argued (see below) and elite.

Smith had erased bust over the prior season and a half. Game manager still yes. He also disproves the joe schmoe exaggeration. What happened to him? - he went to a losing team who saw him as more than joe schmoe and primarily through improved QB play had one of the greatest turnaround seasons ever.

And the coach believing your argument is wrong took the first opportunity to upgrade Smith.

And that nullified anything stated around it. Wrong Johnson. The Seahawks don't sniff the SB last year with Trent Dilfer at QB. But thank you for illustrating the hyperbole being slung on this. Kaep and especially Wilson are not useless remoras their teams are winning in spite of. They are providing above average QB play. Saying their teams would still win with below average QB play is not credible.

Obviously having a good D and running game helps any QB. Doesn't mean they'd have the same success with any QB. It also doesn't mean any QB they have is a joe schmoe. The Texans were trying for the same thing. When they failed on both their non-elite QB led the league in passing. joe schmoe doesn't do that.

it's kinda funny the 3 quarterbacks brought up have near identical stats last season. 3100-3300 passing yards, 400-500 rushing yards, and very efficient TD/INT ratios. these arent drew brees or peyton manning numbers. they're efficient numbers that speak of great run games and teams that arent asking the quarterbacks to carry them. we'll see exactly what these quarterbacks are when the talent around them gets too expensive to keep and they're asked to be more than quietly efficient.

the difference between these 3 and matt schaub when it counted is that they were better at converting key 3rd downs - especially with their feet. 200 yards passing isnt scaring anyone, but when you're talking about great run games and even better defenses, 200 yards and important conversions makes a quarterback look great. at the same time the 4000 yards and missed conversions makes another guy a failure.

i meant dilfer (ravens) and brad johnson (bucs). joes on great teams that were able to simply allow the better team to win. wilson and kaep arent joes, and they're not useless remoras (had to look that one up lol). i dont think anyone said they were. what i'm saying is they are in no way carrying their teams, and those teams are good enough that they most certainly could win just as well with guys who are able to simply keep from turning the ball over.


i and a few others are advocating building with this approach in mind. not to ignore the quarterback position, but to build the areas that keep the quarterback's requirements down so that whoever we do go with doesnt have to carry the team like these quarterbacks being mentioned. 3000 passing yards, 400 rushing, and dont turn the ball over. despite being a passing league, this is today's recipe for success. however, it only wins games with a very good defense and a dominant offensive line that allows for those conversion opportunities. IMO keenum could put those numbers up, or possibly yates if they had the offensive line addressed and all other resources going to the linebackers.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 02:33 AM
it's kinda funny the 3 quarterbacks brought up have near identical stats last season. 3100-3300 passing yards, 400-500 rushing yards, and very efficient TD/INT ratios. these arent drew brees or peyton manning numbers. they're efficient numbers that speak of great run games and teams that arent asking the quarterbacks to carry them. we'll see exactly what these quarterbacks are when the talent around them gets too expensive to keep and they're asked to be more than quietly efficient.

The numbers only look limited and not like Manning because you are cherry picking which ones you look at. There is a spread even among the three with Wilson doing much more than the other two. That is reflected in his QB rating of 101.2 v. 91.6 (Kaep) and 89.1 (Smith). That Wilson does more than just hand the ball off and more than his low yardage indicates is reflected in having 1 more attempt over 20 yards thrown than Manning and 2 less than Brady on 252 attempts less than Manning and 221 attempts less than Brady. Wilson is way above Kaep and Smith and his team is the one with rings. You also ignored numbers like how Wilson brought his team back on game winning drives and 4 qtr comebacks (Kaep as well to a lesser degree) while Smith, BJ and Dilfer did not.

what i'm saying is they are in no way carrying their teams, and those teams are good enough that they most certainly could win just as well with guys who are able to simply keep from turning the ball over.

The bold is where I think you go off the rails. There simply is no substance or support for it. Even among the three, the better QB elevated his team over the others. Just like it isn't elite or joe schmoe (there is a middle), it isn't joe schmoe or carry - there is a continuum of elevating the team with improved performance. Frankly arguing otherwise defies all logic. Completing a few % points less is less 1st downs, completing for 1 ypa less is longer 3rd downs and less 1st downs, not being able to throw downfield (which Harbaugh and Reid either don't trust or the QBs can't do) limits the offense and assists the opposing D.

i and a few others are advocating building with this approach in mind. not to ignore the quarterback position, but to build the areas that keep the quarterback's requirements down so that whoever we do go with doesnt have to carry the team like these quarterbacks being mentioned.

I have no problem at all building a team to keep the QB requirements down. That doesn't mean every QB who plays on a well built team is a fungible joe schmoe. That attitude is one destined for failure because you still need elevating QB play. As far as I am concerned only two schmoes have ever been carried to rings. They are exceptions and if you shoot for that you are bucking the rule.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 08:38 AM
I have no problem at all building a team to keep the QB requirements down. That doesn't mean every QB who plays on a well built team is a fungible joe schmoe. That attitude is one destined for failure because you still need elevating QB play. As far as I am concerned only two schmoes have ever been carried to rings. They are exceptions and if you shoot for that you are bucking the rule.

Exactly.

Number19
03-08-2014, 11:55 AM
...I have no problem at all building a team to keep the QB requirements down. That doesn't mean every QB who plays on a well built team is a fungible joe schmoe. That attitude is one destined for failure because you still need elevating QB play...Isn't this a coaching problem? You get locked in on a QB who is "OK" and find it hard to replace him because that player is the veteran "starter". If you build a winning team around this concept, you must be willing to go after your QB at some point. In part, this also includes the front office and the way they structure the contracts that would allow you to release your veteran starter at minimal cost.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 12:50 PM
Isn't this a coaching problem? You get locked in on a QB who is "OK" and find it hard to replace him because that player is the veteran "starter". If you build a winning team around this concept, you must be willing to go after your QB at some point. In part, this also includes the front office and the way they structure the contracts that would allow you to release your veteran starter at minimal cost.

I don't know if it's a coaching problem, or a GM problem, or if our front office as a whole had the problem. If they thought Schaub was a franchise QB, they should have signed him to a franchise deal & not that Texans friendly contract they signed him to.

We were 4 years in with an 8 year veteran QB. They "questioned" if he was a franchise QB, but the best they could do was bring in Tj Yates. We traded back into the second for a DB that has seen spot duty at best (I like Harris btw).

That could have been Ryan Mallet.

We took a flyer on Devier Posey with the 68th pick in the 2012 draft. That could have been Wilson or Foles (& I like Posey but we used a 1st on a WR the very next year).

Playoffs
04-03-2014, 12:20 PM
On Manziel:What has changed in the NFL -- and I'm asking dispassionately/intellectually/academically -- to the point where a QB that's under 6 feet, slightly built, does not play as if he has a strong arm, lacks an awful discipline, leaves throws on the field by not throwing to open receivers... make that guy viewed as the #1 pick?

Because I'm telling you what the film shows. I'm not interpreting, this is what the film shows. If you were next to me right now I can show you 70 plays where he drops back the WR is wide open in the context of their offense and Johnny Manziel does not throw the football. If you took the name Johnny Manziel off and put the name Joe Schmoe would we be talking about that guy at #1?

I don't know the answer to this, I'm just posing questions based on extensive film study.
The one thing that did stand out [at his pro day] he's a natural thrower, does not have a gun by any means, but the ball comes out easily. You'd just like him to play like that. He's very athletic, Bill Walsh used to talk about ballet like feet and he had ballet like movement at his Pro Day. But he does not play like that... with discipline, with balance, or as if he has a strong arm.
On Clowney: What's the scoop here? A great athlete doing well in athletic drills? So what. I like Clowney, I just don't know what we learned that we didn't already know. Now I remember when JJ Watt came out there was a lot of discussion that said he's a really good player but not a very good pass rusher. None of this is an exact science, you just use it to raise questions.
Greg Cosell on with Cowherd.

Playoffs
04-11-2014, 10:56 AM
Greg Cosell gives a longer run-down of all the top QBs in the draft, from "top 3" down to Murray/Savage...

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris
20 minutes of Greg Cosell discussing QBs on video? Yeah, good Friday:

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/multimedia/videos/Film-Room-Cosell-Breaks-Down-The-Drafts-QBs/95198c0f-16d9-4614-833c-4767a09e05c1 …

thunderkyss
04-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Greg Cosell gives a longer run-down of all the top QBs in the draft, from "top 3" down to Murray/Savage...

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris

Good stuff.

IDEXAN
04-11-2014, 02:27 PM
Cosell's breakdown of important QB prospects in this Draft was good until you get to Manziel, and that piece of his presentation I thought was excellent and just reinforced my convictions that O'Brien wouldn't want to get close to JM, even if he's there for our taking at the beginning of the second round.

Playoffs
04-14-2014, 01:54 PM
The Johnny Manziel mystery: Biggest questions GMs/coaches face in evaluating QB for draft (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-johnny-manziel-mystery--biggest-questions-gms-coaches-have-in-evaluating-qb-for-draft-065903391-nfl.html)
You're a general manager or a head coach in the NFL. The subject is Johnny Manziel. You're not interested in the white noise that saturates Manziel across the airwaves and social media. Or at any rate you shouldn't be. Your job may be on the line. You should be focused on the tape that defines Manziel as a player. That's your starting point. What do you see? How do you evaluate it? Do you believe he can transition well to the NFL?

You begin with...

Playoffs
04-21-2014, 06:16 PM
The case for Logan Thomas as NFL draft's most intriguing QB prospect more pro-ready than Cam Newton in 2011 (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-case-for-logan-thomas-as-nfl-draft-s-most-intriguing-qb-prospect----more-pro-ready-than-cam-newton-was-in-2011--214727831-nfl.html)
...
Here's the reality, which to many is inconceivable given the negative perception of Thomas, and Newton's relative success in the NFL after three seasons: Thomas is further along as a natural passer than Newton was at the equivalent point in time, having played more games in college, and learning an offense with far more complexities than Newton's Auburn offense.

It's easy to say a quarterback is not ready to play in the NFL. The same could be said for every quarterback in this or any draft class, each for different reasons. The truth is few are prepared when they come out of college, regardless of collegiate production, won-lost percentage or the conference in which they played. Even the special ones like Andrew Luck have much to integrate and absorb.

Thomas is a work in progress with significant concerns that all recognize. He may never become a high level NFL starter. I'm certainly not suggesting it's a given. He may never even get the chance. There are so many dynamics that come into play that factor into that equation, some beyond the quarterback's control, such as what round in which he is drafted and which team selects him. (An apt analogy may be Ryan Mallet. There are many in the NFL who believe Mallet is among the 32 best quarterbacks today, but we may never find out). This I can tell you: there are few coaches who would not want the opportunity to work with a quarterback as physically talented as Thomas, one who gives an offense every dimension and expands the playbook.

What Thomas has in his arsenal is something every coach wants: an outstanding arm capable of making every NFL throw with little effort. That's where it starts. Those quarterbacks do not come along in every draft. It makes Thomas the most intriguing quarterback prospect in this class.

WolverineFan
04-23-2014, 12:45 AM
Thomas is further along as a natural passer than Newton was at the equivalent point in time, having played more games in college, and learning an offense with far more complexities than Newton's Auburn offense.


This would actually have merit if he had shown any ability to operate that offense. Just because he played in a pro system doesn't mean he's any further ahead than anybody else. Luck and Bridgewater both played in pro systems, but they also proved they knew and understood the intricacies of the offense. Never saw anything like that from Thomas.

I would also stop way short of proclaiming that a guy with a career 55.6% completion percentage and 53 TD : 39 INT ratio is a more natural passer than anyone. Regardless of offensive system.

Playoffs
04-23-2014, 11:41 AM
Blake Bortles, Teddy Bridgewater raising concern over basic skills (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/blake-bortles--teddy-bridgewater-raising-concern-over-basic-skills-191421367-nfl.html)
I've already written about Johnny Manziel, so let's focus on Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles, two of the names that have been featured in many mock drafts as top 10 picks....

thunderkyss
04-23-2014, 01:28 PM
Blake Bortles, Teddy Bridgewater raising concern over basic skills (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/blake-bortles--teddy-bridgewater-raising-concern-over-basic-skills-191421367-nfl.html)

The issue, and it will be a defining one for many NFL coaches, is how Bridgewater threw the ball. He was a short-armer without the needed ability to drive the ball. He was a soft-tosser who threw the ball effectively in the short to intermediate areas inside the numbers, but struggled to make the more difficult throws outside the numbers. And he did not throw the deep ball well at all. He had to put a lot of body into those throws; as a result, he struggled with trajectory and accuracy. Bridgewater's throwing limitations were not a function of arm strength; they were more a result of his natural throwing motion. It was the reason many of his throws fell apart as they gained distance, and lost energy on the back end. Bridgewater doesn't spin it very well; too many passes came out wobbly. If you don't think that's a concern for NFL coaches, then you are not watching the NFL.

This reflects what I've been saying from the beginning. I thought it was curious that his throws outside the numbers were rarely simple out routes. A staple of NFL offenses. You would see come backs & curls, which by design generates lots of separation because the defense has no idea when you're breaking off that route. It's multiplied when you're not playing the best of the best on a weakly basis.

At the combine, it is probably the most common route QBs are asked to throw; quick out, short out, intermediate out, & deep outs. Practically anyone can throw the route, but very few can throw it with the zip & pop needed at the NFL level.

At the pro day, it's also a featured route. At Teddy's pro day you could see, clearly see the lack of velocity. I don't think the accuracy he displayed surprised anyone, but the lack of velocity he consistently displayed on film & at his pro-day on routes thrown outside the numbers.

Not enough to drop him to a second round grade, imo... but there are enough QBs with the same mid-first grade that I wouldn't be surprised if he falls as it becomes more a matter of preference than arithmetic.

Texian
04-23-2014, 03:19 PM
This reflects what I've been saying from the beginning. I thought it was curious that his throws outside the numbers were rarely simple out routes. A staple of NFL offenses. You would see come backs & curls, which by design generates lots of separation because the defense has no idea when you're breaking off that route. It's multiplied when you're not playing the best of the best on a weakly basis.

At the combine, it is probably the most common route QBs are asked to throw; quick out, short out, intermediate out, & deep outs. Practically anyone can throw the route, but very few can throw it with the zip & pop needed at the NFL level.

At the pro day, it's also a featured route. At Teddy's pro day you could see, clearly see the lack of velocity. I don't think the accuracy he displayed surprised anyone, but the lack of velocity he consistently displayed on film & at his pro-day on routes thrown outside the numbers.

Not enough to drop him to a second round grade, imo... but there are enough QBs with the same mid-first grade that I wouldn't be surprised if he falls as it becomes more a matter of preference than arithmetic.

If this was McShay, Jeremiah or Miller making these comments I wouldn't give them much weight. However since it is Greg Cosell, this story has my attention. Before the Teddybots start, yes I read what he said about Bortles. Bortles is a coaching issue that can easily be changed or fixed. Teddy's problems not so much.

thunderkyss
04-23-2014, 05:26 PM
If this was McShay, Jeremiah or Miller making these comments I wouldn't give them much weight. However since it is Greg Cosell, this story has my attention. Before the Teddybots start, yes I read what he said about Bortles. Bortles is a coaching issue that can easily be changed or fixed. Teddy's problems not so much.

If I thought that, I wouldn't think of him as a mid 1st, late 2nd round pick. I think he can gain more velocity on his throws, working on his mechanics & core strength (weight), he can dramatically increase his ball velocity.

If he's got a coach who identifies it right away & corrects it before he's expected to win games.

Texian
04-23-2014, 06:36 PM
If I thought that, I wouldn't think of him as a mid 1st, late 2nd round pick. I think he can gain more velocity on his throws, working on his mechanics & core strength (weight), he can dramatically increase his ball velocity.

If he's got a coach who identifies it right away & corrects it before he's expected to win games.

Fixing footwork and grip pressure is one thing but taking a kid who can only throw an 80 MPH fastball and say ok now I want you to throw it 95 MPH is another. If it was that simple everyone would be throwing 95 MPH.

Playoffs
04-26-2014, 12:05 AM
Greg Cosell prefers Khalil Mack over Jadeveon Clowney
(http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000344338/article/greg-cosell-prefers-khalil-mack-over-jadeveon-clowney)

Playoffs
04-27-2014, 08:13 PM
Beasts still roam in backfield: Demise of RBs in NFL greatly exaggerated (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/beasts-still-roam-in-backfield--demise-of-rbs-in-nfl-greatly-exaggerated-230934774-nfl.html)
...
This, of course, leads to the now annual question of the value of running backs in the NFL draft. From 1963 through 2012, at least one running back had been selected in the first round of the draft. Last year, that did not happen, the consensus being that the position holds less importance to winning in today's NFL. It's a passing league, blah, blah, blah. It's ingrained in us, especially at this time of year, when philosophical discussions are the order of the day. How would Seattle feel about the declining value of the running back? Or perhaps San Francisco, generally regarded as the second best team in the NFL? Colin Kaepernick threw for less than 200 yards in 12 of his 18 games. Is that the formula for winning we're often told about?

Playoffs
05-03-2014, 10:25 AM
Why Tre Mason's skills may be best suited for NFL over trio of fellow RBs (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/why-tre-mason-s-skill-set-may-be-best-suited-for-nfl-over-trio-of-fellow-rbs-202716035.html)
There are four backs in this year's draft whose NFL value will be debated intensely: Tre Mason (Auburn), Ka'Deem Carey (Arizona), Lache Seastrunk (Baylor) and Bishop Sankey (Washington). All are in the 5-9 to 5-10 range, and are short of 210 pounds. What will their roles be on Sunday afternoons? How that is determined by respective NFL organizations will determine their draft status.

Let's start with Sankey...

Playoffs
05-03-2014, 10:27 AM
Greg Cosell: I Like Kelvin Benjamin More Than Mike Evans (http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2014/05/02/greg-cosell-i-like-kelvin-benjamin-more-than-mike-evans/)
The great Greg Cosell from NFL Films joined the guys for his continued preview of the 2014 NFL Draft. Today he covered the WR and OL markets for the Panthers...

Playoffs
05-03-2014, 10:57 AM
Greg Cosell's Top 3 QBs

1. David Carr
2. Zach Mettenberger
3. Blake Bortles

bah007
05-03-2014, 11:18 AM
Why Tre Mason's skills may be best suited for NFL over trio of fellow RBs (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/why-tre-mason-s-skill-set-may-be-best-suited-for-nfl-over-trio-of-fellow-rbs-202716035.html)

Totally agree with Cossell's take in this article. The things he mentioned are the exact reasons I've had Mason rated as my #1 RB since before the season even ended, when everyone else had him below at least #5.

I think he has the best combination of skills to be a successful back in today's NFL.

Texian
05-03-2014, 02:02 PM
Greg Cosell's Top 3 QBs

1. David Carr
2. Zach Mettenberger
3. Blake Bortles

The GREAT IRONY: The Texans get burned in 2002 for taking a Carr #1 in the draft. And get get burned in 2014 for NOT taking a Carr #1 in the draft.

On Carr, BUYER BEWARE of any QB with over 600 passing attempts in 1 season. Completion % and accuracy is often enhanced by the number of dinks and dunks.

I like Mett but he really only had 1 good year with experienced knowledgeable OC. I think he may be 3-4 years away from being a quality NFL QB.

thunderkyss
05-03-2014, 08:31 PM
The GREAT IRONY: The Texans get burned in 2002 for taking a Carr #1 in the draft. And get get burned in 2014 for NOT taking a Carr #1 in the draft.

On Carr, BUYER BEWARE of any QB with over 600 passing attempts in 1 season. Completion % and accuracy is often enhanced by the number of dinks and dunks.

I like Mett but he really only had 1 good year with experienced knowledgeable OC. I think he may be 3-4 years away from being a quality NFL QB.

If I were a coach, I would be looking for someone with the physical tools to do the job, the mental capacity to learn our system & process information quickly. The ability to solve problems in real time.

Gruden said Carr called 90% of his plays. I was impressed with the conversation he & Gruden had. I think he displayed a deep understanding of pass protections, routes, & defenses.

If I were an OC, I would think he could pick up what we're trying to do & execute it on the field as well as anyone.

Definitely not my first pick, but I can understand now (where I didn't before) why he's thought of as a 1st round prospect.

bah007
05-03-2014, 09:43 PM
The GREAT IRONY: The Texans get burned in 2002 for taking a Carr #1 in the draft. And get get burned in 2014 for NOT taking a Carr #1 in the draft.

On Carr, BUYER BEWARE of any QB with over 600 passing attempts in 1 season. Completion % and accuracy is often enhanced by the number of dinks and dunks.

I like Mett but he really only had 1 good year with experienced knowledgeable OC. I think he may be 3-4 years away from being a quality NFL QB.

I agree with this. I'll also add to it. I really worry about guys who get scared when pressured. I don't think that's something you can change. I see that a lot in Carr and I see it some in the little I've seen of Garoppolo too.

There's a lot to like about Mettenberger. I'd like to get him with a really good QB coach and let him sit for at least a year, maybe more. I love the jump he made this year but he is still very mentally raw.

leebigeztx
05-04-2014, 06:09 AM
If this was McShay, Jeremiah or Miller making these comments I wouldn't give them much weight. However since it is Greg Cosell, this story has my attention. Before the Teddybots start, yes I read what he said about Bortles. Bortles is a coaching issue that can easily be changed or fixed. Teddy's problems not so much.

This is why nobody takes your pppost serious. One player can't do anything about his shortcomings,but the other guy just needs coaching. Brees and rodgers had to get stronger to throw the way they throw now. That's called maturation.

LikeMike
05-04-2014, 09:50 AM
If I were a coach, I would be looking for someone with the physical tools to do the job, the mental capacity to learn our system & process information quickly. The ability to solve problems in real time.

Gruden said Carr called 90% of his plays. I was impressed with the conversation he & Gruden had. I think he displayed a deep understanding of pass protections, routes, & defenses.

If I were an OC, I would think he could pick up what we're trying to do & execute it on the field as well as anyone.

Definitely not my first pick, but I can understand now (where I didn't before) why he's thought of as a 1st round prospect.

He can`t handle pressure. That is one of the reason many great QB prospects fail. In the NFL pressure comes faster, from more directions and hits hurt more. And in the NFL, if other teams know you can`t handle pressure, you will be blitzed on almost every play.

Plus, most of his passes were in the 0-5 yards range. That inflates his completion percentage.

If you`d ask me, Id take Carr off of my draft board. Perhaps take a look at him in the 3d round. In the first Id only take the big 3, in the second Garrapolo and later in the 2nd McCarron and Mettenberger.

IDEXAN
05-04-2014, 10:05 AM
Greg Cosell's Top 3 QBs

1. David Carr
2. Zach Mettenberger
3. Blake Bortles
I like that threesome better than the one we are use to seeing.

steelbtexan
05-04-2014, 10:18 AM
If I were a coach, I would be looking for someone with the physical tools to do the job, the mental capacity to learn our system & process information quickly. The ability to solve problems in real time.

Gruden said Carr called 90% of his plays. I was impressed with the conversation he & Gruden had. I think he displayed a deep understanding of pass protections, routes, & defenses.

If I were an OC, I would think he could pick up what we're trying to do & execute it on the field as well as anyone.

Definitely not my first pick, but I can understand now (where I didn't before) why he's thought of as a 1st round prospect.

If these things are most important to you then Savage/Mettenberger/Murray in addition to McCarron must be high on your list of prospects.

JCTexan
05-04-2014, 10:30 AM
Greg Cosell's Top 3 QBs

1. David Carr
2. Zach Mettenberger
3. Blake Bortle

The GREAT IRONY: The Texans get burned in 2002 for taking a Carr #1 in the draft. And get get burned in 2014 for NOT taking a Carr #1 in the draft.

On Carr, BUYER BEWARE of any QB with over 600 passing attempts in 1 season. Completion % and accuracy is often enhanced by the number of dinks and dunks.

I like Mett but he really only had 1 good year with experienced knowledgeable OC. I think he may be 3-4 years away from being a quality NFL QB.

I like that threesome better than the one we are use to seeing.

You guys really want David Carr again? Wtf?

Playoffs
05-04-2014, 11:10 AM
You guys really want David Carr again? Wtf?My bad. Post traumatic football stress = recurring nightmare. :truck:

Greg Cosell's Top 3 QBs

1. Derek Carr
2. Zach Mettenberger
3. Blake Bortles

Lucky
05-04-2014, 11:48 AM
Greg Cosell: I Like Kelvin Benjamin More Than Mike Evans (http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2014/05/02/greg-cosell-i-like-kelvin-benjamin-more-than-mike-evans/)

He's likely very lonely in that opinion.

Playoffs
05-06-2014, 03:05 PM
Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin fit NFL's trend of bigger is better at WR (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mike-evans--kelvin-benjamin-fit-nfl-s-trend-of-bigger-is-better-at-wr-011017034.html)
It's the year of the wide receiver. It would be no surprise if seven were drafted in the first round on Thursday night. That would not be an aberration. Since the turn of the century, six wide receivers have been selected in the opening round four times (2001, 2005, 2007 and 2009), and seven came off the board in 2004.

Unfortunately for some of those prospects, receiver is consistently the biggest first-round "bust" position in the draft after quarterback. There are certainly many reasons for that, and they must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis, but two factors really stand out: the wide gap between what receivers are asked to do in college versus the NFL regarding route concepts and adjustments, and the dramatically higher quality of cornerbacks they play against on Sundays...

Blake
05-06-2014, 03:19 PM
He's likely very lonely in that opinion.

I like Benjamin better than Evans as well. I will note that my opinion is based on more than just current skills. To me Benjamin projects to be better with more experience, and I like his attitude and demeanor more than Evans.

WolverineFan
05-06-2014, 03:25 PM
I like Benjamin better than Evans as well. I will note that my opinion is based on more than just current skills. To me Benjamin projects to be better with more experience, and I like his attitude and demeanor more than Evans.

I definitely agree with you on demeanor, but Evans hands' are just so much better. Evans also seems to understand the position better (body positioning, coming back to QB, routes) and he's also 3 years younger.

I like Benjamin's potential, but Evans is a lot better right now and has potential himself.

Playoffs
05-06-2014, 04:45 PM
I like Benjamin's potential, but Evans is a lot better right now and has potential himself.

Watkins/Benjamin/Evans vs. "the field"(all other drafted WRs)...

in 3 years, who ya got?

WolverineFan
05-06-2014, 04:51 PM
Watkins/Benjamin/Evans vs. "the field"(all other drafted WRs)...

in 3 years, who ya got?

Wow that's tough because the field includes guys like Cooks, Beckham, Lee, Moncrief, Matthews, Robinson, etc.

I think I'll take the field just because of the odds although I wouldn't be shocked if Watkins ended up being a superior version of Torrey Smith while Evans is a Vincent Jackson lite.