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Marcus
02-03-2014, 12:12 PM
The Depression Thread (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?229601-The-Depression-Thread)

This is my favorite so far...

"When we go to the Super Bowl again, can we PLEASE not wear orange?"

LOL

infantrycak
02-03-2014, 12:29 PM
Maybe someone can figure out this - how many times has a team appeared in the SB with the #1 offense and #1 defense and what were the results?

This is Broncos related because the only example I know of is the 1977 Cowboys who beat the Broncos.

Playoffs
02-03-2014, 12:33 PM
Maybe someone can figure out this - how many times has a team appeared in the SB with the #1 offense and #1 defense and what were the results?...
General tweeted this yesterday...

John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
This is the 5th time team allowing fewest points played team scoring most points. Team allowing fewest points won all 4.

This is second time since the merger that team that allowed fewest yards played team that generated the most yards. Bucs D beat Raiders O.

infantrycak
02-03-2014, 12:38 PM
General tweeted this yesterday...

John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL

Well that's a different question and I used the conventional yardage measurement. Think I may start another thread...

eriadoc
02-03-2014, 12:49 PM
Maybe someone can figure out this - how many times has a team appeared in the SB with the #1 offense and #1 defense and what were the results?

This is Broncos related because the only example I know of is the 1977 Cowboys who beat the Broncos.

The announcers yesterday said it was the 5th time that a #1 defense faced a #1 offense in the Super Bowl. The defense had won 3 of 4 going into yesterday's game. They didn't specify the metrics for the ranking, though. It was just one of those quick announcer stats.

Double Barrel
02-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Maybe someone can figure out this - how many times has a team appeared in the SB with the #1 offense and #1 defense and what were the results?

This is Broncos related because the only example I know of is the 1977 Cowboys who beat the Broncos.

If I'm reading your question right, they mentioned that this is the sixth Super Bowl with the #1 defense vs. the #1 offense.

Defense is 5-1 in those games.

infantrycak
02-03-2014, 01:06 PM
Apparently I worded ambiguously. I was talking A team who was good at both. The 1977 Cowboys had the #1 offense AND the #1 defense on yards.

See new thread.

Double Barrel
02-03-2014, 01:28 PM
Apparently I worded ambiguously. I was talking A team who was good at both. The 1977 Cowboys had the #1 offense AND the #1 defense on yards.

See new thread.

Ahhh, I gotcha'. I saw your other thread, as well. Should be an interesting discussion.

As far as this thread, I was researching and there is a lot of ambiguity involved.

Some articles are using the metric of no. 1 scoring offense vs. no. 1 scoring defense and other such examples.

I found one article that alluded to my 5-1 stat, but it did not give specific examples of teams and Super Bowls:

That didnít matter one bit to the Seahawks, who were No. 1 in scoring defense, No. 1 in total defense and No. 1 in passing defense, and played every bit like it. They made it 5-1 for top defenses that faced top offenses in the Super Bowl, the first team to do so in 23 years.

Source (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-02-03/2014-super-bowl-seahawks-defense-best-ever-in-super-bowl-bronocs-peyton-manning-malcolm-smith-kam-chancellor-sherman)

Norg
02-03-2014, 02:04 PM
all I can hink about I how would things have been different if peyton came to Houston


how can Kubes or even rick IDK who it was not even give a sniff for him ...???? they tottaly over valued the forseeing of Schaub cus at the time even he was coming of a major liss frank injury

they failed to evulate the future IDK im always going to wonder this


Peyton to Andre man I bet he would even had made kevin walter a 1k+ reviver

Speedy
02-03-2014, 02:23 PM
The announcers yesterday said it was the 5th time that a #1 defense faced a #1 offense in the Super Bowl. The defense had won 3 of 4 going into yesterday's game. They didn't specify the metrics for the ranking, though. It was just one of those quick announcer stats.

If I'm reading your question right, they mentioned that this is the sixth Super Bowl with the #1 defense vs. the #1 offense.

Defense is 5-1 in those games.

Don't know where they got that from, but the only Super Bowl other than yesterday where the #1 ranked offense (and this is the conventional total yards ranking) played the #1 ranked defense was Super Bowl 37 - Tampa Bay's #1 D over Oakland's #1 O.

That's it. I don't know where they're coming up with this being the 6th time it's happened. Maybe they mean playoffs, but it's happened just 2 times in the Super Bowl.

Double Barrel
02-03-2014, 04:39 PM
Don't know where they got that from, but the only Super Bowl other than yesterday where the #1 ranked offense (and this is the conventional total yards ranking) played the #1 ranked defense was Super Bowl 37 - Tampa Bay's #1 D over Oakland's #1 O.

That's it. I don't know where they're coming up with this being the 6th time it's happened. Maybe they mean playoffs, but it's happened just 2 times in the Super Bowl.

They had a graphic for it and everything. idonno:

Wish I still had it recorded so I could write down the teams and specific Super Bowls to do some research on how they arrived at the conclusion. But it was definitely framed as #1 D vs. #1 O in SB. My buddy and I paused it to check it out.

***EDIT: Here you go:

No. 1 Offense Vs. No. 1 Defense: The Winner Is . . .

Super Bowl XLVIII will feature the top-scoring offense (Denver) vs. the No. 1 defense (Seattle). In six previous such SB matchups, the top defense won five times.

Year SB No. 1 Offense No. 1 Defense Result
1966 I Chiefs (32.0) Packers (11.6) Green Bay 35, Kansas City 10
1969 IV Vikings (27.1) Chiefs (12.6) Kansas City 23, Minnesota 7
1978 XIII Cowboys (24.0) Steelers (12.2) Pittsburgh 35, Dallas 31
1984 XIX Dolphins (32.1) 49ers (14.2) San Francisco 38, Miami 16
1989 XXIV 49ers (27.6) Broncos (14.1) San Francisco 55, Denver 10
1990 XXV Bills (26.8) Giants (13.3) New York 20, Buffalo 19
2013 XLVIII Broncos (37.9) Seahawks (14.4)

Source (http://sportspressnw.com/2176870/2014/no-1-offense-vs-no-1-defense-the-winner-is)

Speedy
02-03-2014, 09:27 PM
They had a graphic for it and everything. idonno:

Wish I still had it recorded so I could write down the teams and specific Super Bowls to do some research on how they arrived at the conclusion. But it was definitely framed as #1 D vs. #1 O in SB. My buddy and I paused it to check it out.

***EDIT: Here you go:

So it was scoring and not yardage. That would explain it.

HJam72
02-03-2014, 09:54 PM
So it was scoring and not yardage. That would explain it.

Yeah, us Texans get that mixed up. :kubepalm:

Double Barrel
02-04-2014, 11:41 AM
One stat they showed on NFLN last night kinda' blew my mind.

They said out of the top 8 scoring offenses of all time, only three made it to the Super Bowl. And all three of them lost the game.

I'd be curious to see an analysis of where the defenses ranked in the last 20 or so Super Bowl winners. The media and public likes to focus on the QB so much that we often overlook the team aspect. But, I'd be curious about the old mantra "defenses win championships" to see how many of these championship QBs had top ranked defenses (not necessarily #1, but say in the top 5 or so).

Okay, so just did a quick google search of "super bowl champions defensive rankings" and found the following articles:

Study of Super Bowl champs shows dominance on one side of ball is enough (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-09-05/super-bowl-2012-defense-wins-championships-49ers-stats-picks)

And here is a well researched article:

Reloaded: Does defense win championships? A look back at the 46-game history of the Super Bowl (http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/7/5/4488544/reloaded-super-bowl-2013-49ers-vs-ravens-does-defense-win)

- Since 1990, teams ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense are 10-2 in the Super Bowl. Both losses (2010 Packers over Steelers, 2004 Patriots over Eagles) came to a team that was also ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense. Overall, teams ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense are 22-11.

- 31 of 46 Super Bowl winners had a top 5 scoring defense. 23 of 46 Super Bowl losers had a top 5 scoring defense. 30 Super Bowl winners had a top 5 total defense. 18 losers were top 5 in total defense.

Interesting that defense still makes a huge difference in post season and championship games. This is a very offense-friendly league these days, so you'd think that would continue into the playoffs. But, defenses still make a huge impact on games, which we clearly saw with the high scoring offense of all time with a HoF QB being held to a mere 8 points last Sunday.

infantrycak
02-04-2014, 12:11 PM
Interesting that defense still makes a huge difference in post season and championship games. This is a very offense-friendly league these days, so you'd think that would continue into the playoffs. But, defenses still make a huge impact on games, which we clearly saw with the high scoring offense of all time with a HoF QB being held to a mere 8 points last Sunday.

I think the "let them play" attitude of the refs in the post-season contributes to that.

The Seahawks played all season this year as if the refs were calling it that way and largely got away with it. Maybe more DCs need to accept a few more flags.

stingray
02-04-2014, 12:35 PM
One stat they showed on NFLN last night kinda' blew my mind.

They said out of the top 8 scoring offenses of all time, only three made it to the Super Bowl. And all three of them lost the game.

I'd be curious to see an analysis of where the defenses ranked in the last 20 or so Super Bowl winners. The media and public likes to focus on the QB so much that we often overlook the team aspect. But, I'd be curious about the old mantra "defenses win championships" to see how many of these championship QBs had top ranked defenses (not necessarily #1, but say in the top 5 or so).

Okay, so just did a quick google search of "super bowl champions defensive rankings" and found the following articles:

Study of Super Bowl champs shows dominance on one side of ball is enough (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-09-05/super-bowl-2012-defense-wins-championships-49ers-stats-picks)

And here is a well researched article:



Interesting that defense still makes a huge difference in post season and championship games. This is a very offense-friendly league these days, so you'd think that would continue into the playoffs. But, defenses still make a huge impact on games, which we clearly saw with the high scoring offense of all time with a HoF QB being held to a mere 8 points last Sunday.

Didnt the 99 rams have the best offense that year? They beat the Tacks in the SB.

infantrycak
02-04-2014, 12:39 PM
Didnt the 99 rams have the best offense that year? They beat the Tacks in the SB.

1999-2001 the Rams were #1 in both points and yardage on O.

stingray
02-04-2014, 12:42 PM
1999-2001 the Rams were #1 in both points and yardage on O.

Yep..and they did win a sb, so the #1 offense has won a sb in semi recent history.

Thorn
02-04-2014, 12:48 PM
Didnt the 99 rams have the best offense that year? They beat the Tacks in the SB.

There is no magic formula for winning the super bowl. You first have to manage to get there, then you have to have a very good game on that particular day. You don't have to have been a good team on either side of the ball during the regular season, you just have to get into and survive the playoffs.

Dutchrudder
02-04-2014, 02:13 PM
This is the best graphic to illustrate the Denver area's sadness:

http://i.imgur.com/uzzen0M.png

Double Barrel
02-04-2014, 02:20 PM
Didnt the 99 rams have the best offense that year? They beat the Tacks in the SB.

Yep, but they had a good defense, as well.

People seem quick to forget, overlook, or ignore, the fact that no team in the NFL allowed fewer points than the Rams, and no team allowed fewer overall yards than the Rams. They were 9th in turnover differential as well. Only five times all season did a team rush for more than 75 yards against the Rams defense, and only three had more than 350 yards of offense in a single game (conversely, the Rams reached that mark 11 times)

This was a defense that was good enough to have future all-pros Dre Bly and Leonard Little used primarily as reserves or in specialist roles. Todd Lyght and Dexter McCleon combined for ten interceptions at the cornerback positions. London Fletcher had 90 tackles at linebacker and Mike Jones provided equal quality of a player. Defensive lineman Grant Wistrom and D’Marco Farr combined for 15 sacks, while Kevin Carter had 17 on his own.

Source (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7376-forgotten-greatness-the-1999-st-louis-rams#articles/7376-forgotten-greatness-the-1999-st-louis-rams)

And what do we remember about that Super Bowl?

The Rams defense stopping the Titans one yard short. Not the offense outscoring the Titans, but the defense making a stand to win the game.

ObsiWan
02-04-2014, 02:30 PM
So it was scoring and not yardage. That would explain it.

Formulating your "best" ranking by ability to score and ability to prevent scoring makes waaaay more sense to me anyway. Last I looked, no one got credit for a win solely because they had the most yards.

stingray
02-04-2014, 02:52 PM
Yep, but they had a good defense, as well.



And what do we remember about that Super Bowl?

The Rams defense stopping the Titans one yard short. Not the offense outscoring the Titans, but the defense making a stand to win the game.

Im not disagreeing about elite defenses winning over elite offenses. Just pointing out that the best overall offense has won a sb before. The rams actually had a top 10 defense that year if I recall directly. So in essence you have to be balanced.

Double Barrel
02-04-2014, 03:42 PM
Im not disagreeing about elite defenses winning over elite offenses. Just pointing out that the best overall offense has won a sb before. The rams actually had a top 10 defense that year if I recall directly. So in essence you have to be balanced.

Oh yeah, no disagreement at all. Very great conversation and I appreciate all the different perspectives and analysis.

I find trends to be very interesting. I'm a big fan of defense, and while regular season seems to be owned by offense, the post season is clearly when having a great defense makes the difference. Not too many creampuff teams in the playoffs, so the regular season offensive stats sometimes blind us.

The interesting part about the NFLN stat about top 8 top scoring offenses is that the '99 Rams is 9th on the list! lol!

Breakdown:

The top 12 highest-scoring teams in NFL regular-season history, and how far they went that postseason:

1. DENVER this season, 606 points. Postseason result: Playing Seattle in the Super Bowl today.

2. NEW ENGLAND 2007 season, 589 points. Result: Lost to NY Giants in Super Bowl 42.

3. GREEN BAY 2011 season, 560 points. Result: Lost to NY Giants in divisional round.

4. NEW ENGLAND 2012 season, 557 points. Result: Lost to Baltimore Ravens in AFC Championship Game.

5. MINNESOTA 1998 season, 556 points. Result: Lost to Atlanta in the NFC Championship Game.

6. NEW ORLEANS 2011 season, 547 points. Result: Lost to the 49ers in the NFC divisional round.

7. WASHINGTON 1983 season, 541 points. Result: Lost to the L.A. Raiders in Super Bowl XVIII.

8. ST. LOUIS RAMS 2000 season, 540 points. Result: Lost to New Orleans in the NFC wild-card round.

—9. ST. LOUIS RAMS 1999 season, 526 points. Result: WON SUPER BOWL XXXIV over Tennessee. Yes, this Rams team was the only one among the top-12 scoring offenses in NFL history that won the Super Bowl that season.

10. INDIANAPOLIS 2004 season, 522 points. Result: Lost to New England in the AFC divisional round.

11. NEW ENGLAND 2010 season, 518 points. Result: Lost to NY Jets in the AFC divisional round.

T12. MIAMI 1984 season, 513 points. Result: Lost to 49ers in Super Bowl XIX.

T12. NEW ENGLAND 2011 season, 513 points. Result: Lost to NY Giants in Super Bowl XLVI.

Source (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2014/02/02/how-the-all-time-best-offenses-did-in-the-postseason-hint-not-so-good-and-some-super-bowl-48-prop-bets/)

Based on the above, only 1 in 13 of the top all time scoring offenses won a Super Bowl (and as mentioned, they still had a solid defense).

Honestly, this stat kind of surprises me. I would have thought/assumed that the highest scoring offense would have a clear advantage in the playoffs/Super Bowl. But instead, it is the exact opposite.

stingray
02-04-2014, 03:55 PM
The Rams had some luck just to get in the SB in 99. In the NFC championship, the Bucs would have probably won the game if they would have counted a catch by Bert Emanuel in the 4th quarter that looked like a definite catch. The reciever had control of the ball but it the nose touched the ground. They changed rule after that season. And the Rams only scored 11 points in that game.

The Pencil Neck
02-04-2014, 04:16 PM
This is the best graphic to illustrate the Denver area's sadness:

http://i.imgur.com/uzzen0M.png

msr

Speedy
02-04-2014, 08:45 PM
Formulating your "best" ranking by ability to score and ability to prevent scoring makes waaaay more sense to me anyway. Last I looked, no one got credit for a win solely because they had the most yards.

I don't disagree with that, but it's how it's presented to us by the talking heads. For most of this past season everyone said the Texans had the #1 defense and that was based solely on yards allowed. We all knew better. So if an announcer of a game told viewers that so and so has the #1 defense, I would assume that's what they were talking about - yardage - unless they specifically stated scoring defense.

I agree that we need something better than yards gained or allowed to rank offenses and defenses. Points is definitely a much better indicator but that doesn't tell the whole story either.

Troy Aikman has a ranking system that takes a lot of things into account (don't get me lying about what though) when he ranks offense and defense that tells a whole lot better story than yards gained and allowed. He had the Texans D ranked mid to upper 20's for most of the year, which sounds right about where they should have been.

Texan_Bill
02-04-2014, 09:20 PM
This is the best graphic to illustrate the Denver area's sadness:

http://i.imgur.com/uzzen0M.png

Well all that graph suggests is that neither city has any "staying" power much beyond 1:00 am, irrespective of time zone. I was watching well into the 3:00/4:00am range. :texanbill: