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CloakNNNdagger
01-24-2014, 06:42 AM
According OVER THE CAP.COM numbers, there's going to have to be a lot of shuffling and creativity. Note the Colts and Jags numbers.

2014 Salary Cap Space Update- Jan 22 (http://overthecap.com/2014-salary-cap-space-update-jan-22/)
by jason

I figure every week in which there are some salary updates to post I’ll post estimates for the salary cap space for each team in 2014. The estimates include estimated carryover totals from 2013, savings from voidable contracts, and all escalators that have been earned thus far. Futures contracts are also included and most teams are at the top 51 figure already. The numbers don’t include adjustments for LTBEs/NLTBEs, grievances, etc…but they should give a fair estimate as to where teams stand heading into 2014.

Per my estimates four teams will be over the salary cap and two teams (Chargers and Rams) are both so close that they may be over the cap. Another 9 teams should have less than $10 million in room and are teams that may need changes. If you want to see how many free agents the various teams have, you can check out this post from Jan 14 that details the free agents by team. Any questions feel free to email or post in the comments.


Team Contracts Est. Adjusted Cap Estimated Cap Space
Raiders 50 $128,732,661 $61,556,390
Jaguars 51 $145,945,313 $50,856,859
Browns 51 $150,837,568 $45,557,017
Colts 51 $126,907,910 $33,940,530
Dolphins 49 $144,364,087 $32,523,028
Redskins 51 $127,669,236 $27,893,929
Packers 51 $136,120,458 $27,655,575
Bengals 51 $135,416,604 $24,702,456
Vikings 51 $127,112,313 $23,549,568
Eagles 51 $143,469,767 $20,870,691
Jets 51 $127,773,437 $20,169,558
Bills 51 $144,426,975 $19,887,485
Broncos 47 $134,256,880 $17,805,118
Panthers 51 $137,912,268 $13,940,772
Giants 51 $126,317,447 $13,219,473
Buccaneers 51 $133,069,781 $12,043,336
Ravens 47 $127,831,423 $11,396,102
49ers 51 $128,475,038 $7,138,511
Falcons 51 $129,435,467 $6,859,837
Patriots 51 $130,324,801 $6,845,171
Titans 51 $133,253,561 $6,656,952
Bears 46 $127,096,726 $5,625,725
Seahawks 45 $129,145,003 $3,011,926
Cardinals 51 $132,050,006 $2,455,586
Texans 51 $127,382,080 $2,146,650
Chiefs 51 $128,781,515 $1,346,628
Rams 51 $126,472,529 $790,846
Chargers 51 $128,619,342 ($462,912)
Lions 51 $127,774,552 ($5,332,206)
Saints 51 $126,923,917 ($11,990,654)
Steelers 51 $127,652,450 ($12,471,398)
Cowboys 51 $127,580,694 ($22,681,516)

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 07:11 AM
That, I believe is the primary reason Matt Schaub won't be back next season & will be a June 1st cut. That immediately adds $11M to our cap this season, $10M to our cap for 2015, & $19M to our cap for 2016.

It's a no brainer to me.

I also don't believe Rick Smith screwed up our cap. We were a Super Bowl contender before the season started. Patriots, 9ers, & Falcon aren't far from us.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

TEXANRED
01-24-2014, 07:22 AM
I guess I don't understand how the Jags have $145M in cap space and we have $127M.

dsorc
01-24-2014, 07:30 AM
I guess I don't understand how the Jags have $145M in cap space and we have $127M.

Probably due to cap carryover, which is when unused cap from previous years moves to the future year. That would also be a sign that ownership is unwilling to use up all their cap space.

Texian
01-24-2014, 07:37 AM
There will be restructuring. There will be borrowing money from 2015 & 2016 to pay for 2014. There will be more of the same.

FYI - If the Texans cut Schaub and Foster and accounted for all Dead Money in 2014, the Texans would begin 2015 $50 million under the cap in 2015.

TEXANS84
01-24-2014, 10:04 AM
That's ridiculous that the Colts have that much cap space.

Look for player purging by the Saints and Cowboys, or some severe restructuring.

Big Lou
01-24-2014, 10:26 AM
Probably due to cap carryover, which is when unused cap from previous years moves to the future year. That would also be a sign that ownership is unwilling to use up all their cap space.

There is a limitation to how much you can carryover, and the CBA stipulates a cap floor, teams gave to spend a certain amount. I just can't see how the Colts have that kind of room.

ChampionTexan
01-24-2014, 10:44 AM
There is a limitation to how much you can carryover, and the CBA stipulates a cap floor, teams gave to spend a certain amount. I just can't see how the Colts have that kind of room.

Please elaborate on the limitations to the carryover amounts, as I'm not familiar with them.

Also, while there is a floor in place, it doesn't have to be met on a yearly basis. It basically applies to the four year period ending with the 2016 season. It does require that a minimum of 89% of the cap be spent over that period, but since compliance with that 89% amount isn't required until the end of that cumulative period, it makes the concept of a floor in any one specific year non-applicable.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 10:54 AM
There will be restructuring. There will be borrowing money from 2015 & 2016 to pay for 2014. There will be more of the same.

FYI - If the Texans cut Schaub and Foster and accounted for all Dead Money in 2014, the Texans would begin 2015 $50 million under the cap in 2015.

Ok..... I'm being serious here. Obviously I don't understand what you are saying... but I would love to. Are you saying we should never offer a signing bonus to the players we intend to sign?

I ask, because that is the only "dead money" to speak of in the Texans' cap figure.

Looking at the Patriots numbers (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Patriots) & ours don't seem much different, player for player. We're just paying our players more, imo our players "deserve" more.

The Patriots only have 4 players with a cap number over $6M, we've got 8. They've got about $8M, we've got $3M. Their number doesn't include Talib who made $4.8M last year (if the Pats sign him for next year with a $5M cap number, the Patriots would be at $3M under the cap).

What am I not seeing that you do?

steelbtexan
01-24-2014, 10:57 AM
That's ridiculous that the Colts have that much cap space.

Look for player purging by the Saints and Cowboys, or some severe restructuring.

Having that kinda cap space and having Luck is going to make the Colts SB contenders for yrs to come.

The reason the Texans are in the cap shape they are in is because Rick misread how much the cap would be going up and wrongly thought Schaub was the man to lead the Texans to a SB. Along with not realizing that that Gary had run Foster into the ground. (He should have realized this. Plenty of people on this MB predicted the fall of Foster.)

Thanks Rick

Dutchrudder
01-24-2014, 11:03 AM
Ok..... I'm being serious here. Obviously I don't understand what you are saying... but I would love to. Are you saying we should never offer a signing bonus to the players we intend to sign?

I ask, because that is the only "dead money" to speak of in the Texans' cap figure.

Looking at the Patriots numbers (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Patriots) & ours don't seem much different, player for player. We're just paying our players more, imo our players "deserve" more.

The Patriots only have 4 players with a cap number over $6M, we've got 8. They've got about $8M, we've got $3M. Their number doesn't include Talib who made $4.8M last year (if the Pats sign him for next year with a $5M cap number, the Patriots would be at $3M under the cap).

What am I not seeing that you do?

The difference is that they put 18m a year towards a HOF QB, while we continue to pay 10-15m a year for a HOF WR who has ****ty QBs throwing to him.

That and their coach routinely finds quality starters from other teams castoffs. That's the difference.

Texian
01-24-2014, 11:45 AM
Ok..... I'm being serious here. Obviously I don't understand what you are saying... but I would love to. Are you saying we should never offer a signing bonus to the players we intend to sign?

I ask, because that is the only "dead money" to speak of in the Texans' cap figure.

Looking at the Patriots numbers (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Patriots) & ours don't seem much different, player for player. We're just paying our players more, imo our players "deserve" more.

The Patriots only have 4 players with a cap number over $6M, we've got 8. They've got about $8M, we've got $3M. Their number doesn't include Talib who made $4.8M last year (if the Pats sign him for next year with a $5M cap number, the Patriots would be at $3M under the cap).

What am I not seeing that you do?

Here is what I am saying, on average each NFL team allocates approx. $5 million each year to cover IR replacements, practice squad and LTBEs (Likely to Be Earned, Incentives). Taking this into account that leaves the Texans roughly $3 million over the cap. The Texans will also have approx 15 contracts to replace due to the number of players lost in free agency this year. The Texans do not have the salary cap space to spend the money needed to replace any lost players with equal or better talent. Once again the Texans will have to make due with signing vet minimum, rookie contracts and the draft to complete their rosters. The Texans will also restructure some contracts (borrow money form future years) in order to have enough money to pay for their 53 man roster/contracts.

In Regards to Schaub and Foster, if the Texans were to allocate all dead money to the 2014 season that would allow them to take their full amount off the 2015 books, $17 mil for Schaub and $9 mil for Foster. Manning and Daniels are 2015 free agents so their $6 mil salaries come off the 2015 books also. This would allow the Texans to start 2015 roughly $50 million or more under the 2015 salary cap.

Signing bonuses are OK but the bottom line with any contract is the Guaranteed Money. Back loading contracts is what destroys Salary Caps. Ideally contracts should be constructed with as much front end money as possible.

This scenario is the same scenario and pattern of behavior used by the Texans the last two years. As a result the Texans teams have deteriorated since 2011 because of attrition. The Texans have not had the available money to use in free agency to replace starters and good back ups. Instead they've had to make due with minimum contracts and the drafts. Drafts have been disappointing especially after round 1. As a result starters have been replaced with lesser talent, along 2nd team backups. This lesser talent also has a direct diverse affect on the Special Teams. That in a nutshell is the story of your Houston Texans today and why each year for the last two years they have become less competitive with each passing year.

Texian
01-24-2014, 11:50 AM
Having that kinda cap space and having Luck is going to make the Colts SB contenders for yrs to come.

The reason the Texans are in the cap shape they are in is because Rick misread how much the cap would be going up and wrongly thought Schaub was the man to lead the Texans to a SB. Along with not realizing that that Gary had run Foster into the ground. (He should have realized this. Plenty of people on this MB predicted the fall of Foster.)

Thanks Rick

Something I have been saying since 2010. Many and most accuse me of being a Debbie Downer, making wild predictions, a hater and host of other derogatory terms. I say it's not wild predictions, alternative histories or anything else, I am simply doing the math.

76Texan
01-24-2014, 01:35 PM
That's ridiculous that the Colts have that much cap space.

Look for player purging by the Saints and Cowboys, or some severe restructuring.

Think of it this way.
The Texans had guys on IR for most of the years that account for some $22-26M in cap space last year (Foster, Manning, OD, and Cushing.)

If none of these guys ever played a down last year, does it many any difference?
Hey, if Schaub didn't count in cap space like he didn't count on the field, the Texans would have had tons of cap space.

Currently, Overthecap is counting guys with active contracts.
The Colts have more FAs that they need to resign to have the same team as last year.

By the time all is said and done, the numbers for both teams will be closer.
The Colts took their lump in 2011-12; they are on a different cycle, that's all.

In a few years when guys Luck, Castonzo, Hilton, Allen, Fleener (to name a few) need a big pay check to retain, it will be a different story.

Number19
01-24-2014, 02:00 PM
...The Texans will also have approx 15 contracts to replace due to the number of players lost in free agency this year. The Texans do not have the salary cap space to spend the money needed to replace any lost players with equal or better talent. Once again the Texans will have to make due with signing vet minimum, rookie contracts and the draft to complete their rosters. The Texans will also restructure some contracts (borrow money form future years) in order to have enough money to pay for their 53 man roster/contracts...the Texans teams have deteriorated since 2011 because of attrition. The Texans have not had the available money to use in free agency to replace starters and good back ups. Instead they've had to make due with minimum contracts and the drafts. Drafts have been disappointing especially after round 1. As a result starters have been replaced with lesser talent, along 2nd team backups. This lesser talent also has a direct diverse affect on the Special Teams. That in a nutshell is the story of your Houston Texans today...Great explanation.

You've just made my argument supporting trading down from our 1-1 pick to acquire additional high draft picks, rather than betting the farm on a QB with that first pick and supported by insufficient talent around him.

It goes without saying that the new coaching staff must do a better job in evaluating the draft talent.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 02:03 PM
Having that kinda cap space and having Luck is going to make the Colts SB contenders for yrs to come.

The reason the Texans are in the cap shape they are in is because Rick misread how much the cap would be going up and wrongly thought Schaub was the man to lead the Texans to a SB. Along with not realizing that that Gary had run Foster into the ground. (He should have realized this. Plenty of people on this MB predicted the fall of Foster.)

Thanks Rick

Not a big Rick Smith fan, If I had my way, I'd have fired him in2010 & kept Kubiak..... that said, Schaub was well on his way in 2011 into making Rick Smith look like a smart man. Had we finished the season the way he started, we get to the AFC Championship game, possibly the Super Bowl... Rick would've looked like a genius.

I agree that a good GM will be right on those kinds of gambles & Rick has a very poor history with them (OD, Foster, Cushing).... so that's one thing. But I don't know we can blame Slick Rick (WD40) for Kubiak running Foster into the ground (happened after Rick paid him) or for Jamal Charles doing the what he was taught to do.

I still think the structure of Schaub's contract was just a hair short of genius. It gave Matt two years (2012, 2013) to prove he is an elite QB before we were paying him elite QB money ($14M cap numbers). We've got an out, we can cut him now & realize a net gain.

I bet you dollars to donuts Ozzie offered Flacco a similar deal & he wishes Flacco would have took it.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 02:04 PM
The difference is that they put 18m a year towards a HOF QB, while we continue to pay 10-15m a year for a HOF WR who has ****ty QBs throwing to him.

That and their coach routinely finds quality starters from other teams castoffs. That's the difference.

Very good point, but not the point Texian is arguing.

Big Lou
01-24-2014, 02:51 PM
Please elaborate on the limitations to the carryover amounts, as I'm not familiar with them.

Also, while there is a floor in place, it doesn't have to be met on a yearly basis. It basically applies to the four year period ending with the 2016 season. It does require that a minimum of 89% of the cap be spent over that period, but since compliance with that 89% amount isn't required until the end of that cumulative period, it makes the concept of a floor in any one specific year non-applicable.

Man I must have made that up. I could have sworn I read where teams could only carry over a certain amount of cap money left over. After searching I see teams that have carried like 24 million over. I'm suprised no one has tanked like 3-4 years in a row just to bank a lot of cash and make a big run.

I wonder if you have carry over you have to spend that the following season or you lose it.

badboy
01-24-2014, 03:44 PM
Man I must have made that up. I could have sworn I read where teams could only carry over a certain amount of cap money left over. After searching I see teams that have carried like 24 million over. I'm suprised no one has tanked like 3-4 years in a row just to bank a lot of cash and make a big run.

I wonder if you have carry over you have to spend that the following season or you lose it.You might have been thinking when the new CBA was signed a small amount $2-3 m IIRC was allowed to re-sign a FA vet that was above the cap limit. This was allowed for two seasons, I think. Texans did not use.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 04:47 PM
Here is what I am saying, on average each NFL team allocates approx. $5 million each year to cover IR replacements, practice squad and LTBEs (Likely to Be Earned, Incentives). Taking this into account that leaves the Texans roughly $3 million over the cap. The Texans will also have approx 15 contracts to replace due to the number of players lost in free agency this year. The Texans do not have the salary cap space to spend the money needed to replace any lost players with equal or better talent. Once again the Texans will have to make due with signing vet minimum, rookie contracts and the draft to complete their rosters. The Texans will also restructure some contracts (borrow money form future years) in order to have enough money to pay for their 53 man roster/contracts.


So how's that different than the Patriots? Like I said, we've got twice as many players with a $6M+ cap number than they do & they've only got $5M more than we've got. If Talib was signed for another year, they would be in the same boat.


Signing bonuses are OK but the bottom line with any contract is the Guaranteed Money. Back loading contracts is what destroys Salary Caps. Ideally contracts should be constructed with as much front end money as possible.


I do not agree with this. Back loaded contracts, to me, is like money in that bank. The mistake, I think, is letting these guys play out those portions of their contracts. Mario for instance, the Texans should have known (& probably did) what they valued Mario at before the 2011 season, he never should have been allowed to play for $18M, that money should have been converted to a bonus & Mario extended for at least 4 years.

I like Mario, but there's no way he was worth an $18M salary or cap hit. If we couldn't reach a deal, I would have tried to trade him. No other team would have wanted to pay the $18M, but they could have worked out a new contract, just like we did with Schaub. He could have been a Patriot, for a lot less than $96M.


This scenario is the same scenario and pattern of behavior used by the Texans the last two years. As a result the Texans teams have deteriorated since 2011 because of attrition. The Texans have not had the available money to use in free agency to replace starters and good back ups. Instead they've had to make due with minimum contracts and the drafts. Drafts have been disappointing especially after round 1. As a result starters have been replaced with lesser talent, along 2nd team backups. This lesser talent also has a direct diverse affect on the Special Teams. That in a nutshell is the story of your Houston Texans today and why each year for the last two years they have become less competitive with each passing year.

I'm still not seeing it. I can see how you've allowed several facts to add up to a particular result.... but that deterioration has more to do (in my mind) with Schaub second guessing himself, Foster's back issues, & Cushing's knee than it does with an inability to sign quality free agents or replace starters. Kj, Manning, Swearinger, & Jjo were a big part of our problem in 2013 & we paid a pretty penny for each one of them.

Then you take into account that our 2nd round pick (Ben Tate) didn't perform as well as the bum New England picked up off the street (Lagarrett Blount) regardless of the reason.....

Matt Schaub & our secondary, if they'd have played up to their contracts, 2013 would have played out a lot differently. That doesn't sound like mismanaging the salary cap... not the way you're saying. I can understand people who say we spent to much on Schaub or that we shouldn't have extended him & had a replacement in place since 2010. But what you're saying doesn't make sense.

infantrycak
01-24-2014, 04:49 PM
Man I must have made that up. I could have sworn I read where teams could only carry over a certain amount of cap money left over. After searching I see teams that have carried like 24 million over. I'm suprised no one has tanked like 3-4 years in a row just to bank a lot of cash and make a big run.

I wonder if you have carry over you have to spend that the following season or you lose it.

Folks are missing a big piece of the equation and you have hit on it. Starting last year, but determined on a four year span rather than annually, teams must spend 89% of the salary cap IN CASH not cap hit. So if the caps for 2013-16 are $120, $125, $130 and $135 (total $510 mil) then the teams must spend $453.9 mil in cash over that time period.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 05:33 PM
Something I have been saying since 2010. Many and most accuse me of being a Debbie Downer, making wild predictions, a hater and host of other derogatory terms. I say it's not wild predictions, alternative histories or anything else, I am simply doing the math.

Only because somehow this salary cap thing found a way to bite us in the middle of December 2011.

DX-TEX
01-24-2014, 05:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/xOvt3lw.png

Image of the same chart the OP posted

EllisUnit
01-24-2014, 05:49 PM
Having that kinda cap space and having Luck is going to make the Colts SB contenders for yrs to come.

The reason the Texans are in the cap shape they are in is because Rick misread how much the cap would be going up and wrongly thought Schaub was the man to lead the Texans to a SB. Along with not realizing that that Gary had run Foster into the ground. (He should have realized this. Plenty of people on this MB predicted the fall of Foster.)

Thanks Rick

The fall of Foster, before this season he was one of the most productive backs in the NFL. I dont call one down season because of a season ending injury the fall of foster.

He will be back next season and be just as productive as he was !

CloakNNNdagger
01-24-2014, 06:58 PM
The fall of Foster, before this season he was one of the most productive backs in the NFL. I dont call one down season because of a season ending injury the fall of foster.

He will be back next season and be just as productive as he was !


HE may be back, but will his BACK be back. This is a very bad problem for any player, but much worse for a running back. I warned about this with Cody right after he experienced his initial similar back problem in preseason.

EllisUnit
01-24-2014, 07:51 PM
HE may be back, but will his BACK be back. This is a very bad problem for any player, but much worse for a running back. I warned about this with Cody right after he experienced his initial similar back problem in preseason.

Cloak why you always got to come in with all your college education knowledge and **** on my parade ;) haha

Cant i have my cake and eat it too ?

No man i know he might never be the same, but Foster is a damn good RB, what the 4th fastest to make it to 5,000 yards ? All i'm saying is that i wouldnt count Foster out just yet. And people act like he just started sucking which isnt the case.

Texian
01-25-2014, 08:16 AM
So how's that different than the Patriots? Like I said, we've got twice as many players with a $6M+ cap number than they do & they've only got $5M more than we've got. If Talib was signed for another year, they would be in the same boat.


I do not agree with this. Back loaded contracts, to me, is like money in that bank. The mistake, I think, is letting these guys play out those portions of their contracts. Mario for instance, the Texans should have known (& probably did) what they valued Mario at before the 2011 season, he never should have been allowed to play for $18M, that money should have been converted to a bonus & Mario extended for at least 4 years.

I like Mario, but there's no way he was worth an $18M salary or cap hit. If we couldn't reach a deal, I would have tried to trade him. No other team would have wanted to pay the $18M, but they could have worked out a new contract, just like we did with Schaub. He could have been a Patriot, for a lot less than $96M.

You say you like back loaded contracts but then you say Mario's back loaded contract was a mistake, can't have it both ways, back loaded contracts are detrimental to your salary cap as you explained with all the negative reasons on Mario's contract.

I'm still not seeing it. I can see how you've allowed several facts to add up to a particular result.... but that deterioration has more to do (in my mind) with Schaub second guessing himself, Foster's back issues, & Cushing's knee than it does with an inability to sign quality free agents or replace starters. Kj, Manning, Swearinger, & Jjo were a big part of our problem in 2013 & we paid a pretty penny for each one of them.

Then you take into account that our 2nd round pick (Ben Tate) didn't perform as well as the bum New England picked up off the street (Lagarrett Blount) regardless of the reason.....

Matt Schaub & our secondary, if they'd have played up to their contracts, 2013 would have played out a lot differently. That doesn't sound like mismanaging the salary cap... not the way you're saying. I can understand people who say we spent to much on Schaub or that we shouldn't have extended him & had a replacement in place since 2010. But what you're saying doesn't make sense.

You are using a lot of If's , And's, But's and excuses along with a whole lot of supposition, wishing and hoping to say in your perfect world the Texans would've been 12-4, Division Champs and going to the Super Bowl. When the reality is the Texans would be closer to 8-8 NOT 12-4. The Dallas Cowboys are a team that has a very similar roster and similar salary cap math problems for the last 3 years. For the last 3 years the Cowboys have been 8-8. 8-8 is a whole lot closer to the reality of the situation than the fantasy world you've created through your numerous excuses, if's, and's or but's. Many of your excuses, if's And's or but's are part of the realities of NFL. The one area in Texans favor is the AFC South has been the weak sister of the NFL the last few years. Not any more.

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 08:45 AM
You say you like back loaded contracts but then you say Mario's back loaded contract was a mistake, can't have it both ways, back loaded contracts are detrimental to your salary cap as you explained with all the negative reasons on Mario's contract.


I said it is a mistake to let the players play out those contracts. You cut him, or extend him. You do not pay him $18M to play one year then let him walk without an offer the next.


You are using a lot of If's , And's, But's and excuses along with a whole lot of supposition, wishing and hoping to say in your perfect world the Texans would've been 12-4, Division Champs and going to the Super Bowl.


Aren't you doing the same thing, except where I'm saying players should play up to their contracts, you're saying our GM should manage the cap better. However, you say Rick & Chris Olsen are doing it wrong, but they're doing it the same way they do it in New England. Like I said, we've got 8 players making $6M or more, they've got 4 & there's only $5M difference in our cap situation. & if Hernandez wasn't in jail, they'd be even worse.




When the reality is the Texans would be closer to 8-8 NOT 12-4. The Dallas Cowboys are a team that has a very similar roster and similar salary cap math problems for the last 3 years. For the last 3 years the Cowboys have been 8-8. 8-8 is a whole lot closer to the reality of the situation than the fantasy world you've created through your numerous excuses, if's, and's or but's. Many of your excuses, if's And's or but's are part of the realities of NFL. The one area in Texans favor is the AFC South has been the weak sister of the NFL the last few years. Not any more.



Would the salary cap have been a problem if Matt Schaub didn't set the consecutive pick 6 record? Or if Arian & Cushing were to play 16 games? Or if our high dollar (FA & draft) secondary didn't avg a big PI every game?

Texian
01-25-2014, 08:52 AM
Would the salary cap have been a problem if Matt Schaub didn't set the consecutive pick 6 record? Or if Arian & Cushing were to play 16 games? Or if our high dollar (FA & draft) secondary didn't avg a big PI every game?

3 sentences, 3 if's. With enough ifs ands and buts you can make it out to be anything you want.

Big Lou
01-25-2014, 09:45 AM
Folks are missing a big piece of the equation and you have hit on it. Starting last year, but determined on a four year span rather than annually, teams must spend 89% of the salary cap IN CASH not cap hit. So if the caps for 2013-16 are $120, $125, $130 and $135 (total $510 mil) then the teams must spend $453.9 mil in cash over that time period.

The whole cap versus cash thing does make this whole equation a little more difficult to wrap your arms around.

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 09:54 AM
3 sentences, 3 if's. With enough ifs ands and buts you can make it out to be anything you want.

Those three ifs point to the real problem which is not signing players to multi-year deals, or renegotiating contracts.

Texian
01-25-2014, 10:08 AM
Those three ifs point to the real problem which is not signing players to multi-year deals, or renegotiating contracts.

Those 3 ifs along with all the other ands and buts, plus all the excuses, keeps HOPE ALIVE, so you have that going for you.

EllisUnit
01-25-2014, 10:12 AM
Those 3 ifs along with all the other ands and buts, plus all the excuses, keeps HOPE ALIVE, so you have that going for you.

Ifs play a big role in everything

such as IF you didnt write this i wouldnt respond
IF you hadnt woke up this morning you wouldnt of written this
IF the internet had never been invented this thread wouldnt exist
IF your mother hadnt met your father you wouldnt be born
IF our fore fathers had lost at lexington this would still be Britian

Yeah i think IFs are relevant !

Texian
01-25-2014, 11:07 AM
Ifs play a big role in everything

such as IF you didnt write this i wouldnt respond
IF you hadnt woke up this morning you wouldnt of written this
IF the internet had never been invented this thread wouldnt exist
IF your mother hadnt met your father you wouldnt be born
IF our fore fathers had lost at lexington this would still be Britian

Yeah i think IFs are relevant !

You may think it relevant, however, absolutely none of what you said is based in reality. It all in fact, did happen! Therefore you're dealing with more pretend, fantasy and make believe. Which by the way reflects the general thinking of quite a few Texans fans.

Wolf
01-25-2014, 11:11 AM
I had no problem giving Cushing and foster and even Matt the contracts at That time. The texans had to lock those guys up. They(at the time important pieces of he franchise) ESP with Watt's contract looming and it is going to be a BIG on.

EllisUnit
01-25-2014, 11:18 AM
You may think it relevant, however, absolutely none of what you said is based in reality. It all in fact, did happen! Therefore you're dealing with more pretend, fantasy and make believe. Which by the way reflects the general thinking of quite a few Texans fans.

NO you can use if in the context of IF it did happen or IF it did not happen and most generally before something happens it was an "IF" at one time. No fantasy because no matter which way the IF goes it has an affect on the other.

Its funny cause people are so narrow minded, you do know everything that happens, thats gonna happen, has been created or will be created starts with an IF. What if we do this or what if we do that, they choose one of those IFs..... do they not ?

No wonder hollywood has to remake old movies. All modern day thinking outside the box is gone for most.

Good luck !

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 12:37 PM
I had no problem giving Cushing and foster and even Matt the contracts at That time. The texans had to lock those guys up. They(at the time important pieces of he franchise) ESP with Watt's contract looming and it is going to be a BIG on.

Agreed.

Andre Johnson $15.6M
Matt Schaub $14.5M
Johnathan Joseph $11M
Arian Foster $8.5M
Duane Brown $8.5M
Chris Myers $7M
Owen Daniels $6M
Danieal Manning $6M

Next year replace Manning with Cushing.
Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, & Johnathan Joseph comes off that list in 2015.

On one hand you've got a cadre accusing McNair of being cheap. On the other we've got a zealot saying we've spent too much.

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 01:14 PM
Now..... in his/her defense. & I've been waiting for him/her to say it, but it's like (s)he doesn't understand his/her own argument.... we're screwed with Andre. I mentioned earlier, we shouldn't ever pay anyone an $18M salary, or suffer an $18M cap number for any one player.

Well, we should never have a WR with a $14M cap number either. Andre Johnson took a paycut last season to make cap space for Brian Cushing. We can't alter his contract again until next season.... we have no choice but to cut him (+$3.6M) or suffer a $15.6M cap number. $16M for 2015 & $14.6M in 2016.

The last two seasons, he's proven that he can still play, but... instead of asking him to take a pay cut, we should have "extended him" through 2018. Looks like he'll be a productive player at least through 2016..... but $16M??

Rick Smith & Chris Olsen need to find a way to extend him after the 2014 season through the 2019 season. Expect him to play through 2017, but minimize the cap hit in 2018.


But Andre is the only case. Mario was allowed to play out his contract without extending him indefinitely, So was Antonio. We can cut OD & Manning today & our cap would be better off. We can cut Matt Schaub today & we'd be better off.

We can cut Jjo & our cap would be better off. However, he's only 29 years old & he's not terrible. He's not $11M good, or $12M (2015)....... 5 to 7 million dollars maybe.

EllisUnit
01-25-2014, 01:30 PM
Now..... in his/her defense. & I've been waiting for him/her to say it, but it's like (s)he doesn't understand his/her own argument.... we're screwed with Andre. I mentioned earlier, we shouldn't ever pay anyone an $18M salary, or suffer an $18M cap number for any one player.

Well, we should never have a WR with a $14M cap number either. Andre Johnson took a paycut last season to make cap space for Brian Cushing. We can't alter his contract again until next season.... we have no choice but to cut him (+$3.6M) or suffer a $15.6M cap number. $16M for 2015 & $14.6M in 2016.

The last two seasons, he's proven that he can still play, but... instead of asking him to take a pay cut, we should have "extended him" through 2018. Looks like he'll be a productive player at least through 2016..... but $16M??

Rick Smith & Chris Olsen need to find a way to extend him after the 2014 season through the 2019 season. Expect him to play through 2017, but minimize the cap hit in 2018.


But Andre is the only case. Mario was allowed to play out his contract without extending him indefinitely, So was Antonio. We can cut OD & Manning today & our cap would be better off. We can cut Matt Schaub today & we'd be better off.

We can cut Jjo & our cap would be better off. However, he's only 29 years old & he's not terrible. He's not $11M good, or $12M (2015)....... 5 to 7 million dollars maybe.

As much as i agree with you about AJs contract i say there is no way they cut him, he will be 33 this season, but his last 2 seasons have both been over 1400 yard seasons. But thats not even the reason i say we shouldnt cut him....

No matter how loyal or hometown boyish this may sound, you do not do that to a player that has given his all for this franchise, and who hung around tough when times were bad. AJ needs to retire a texans when he is damn well ready. IF the franchise does cut him (NO MATTER how much it may help the franchise) I for one will lose a lot of respect for Mcnair and company !

Just all IMHO of course

Texian
01-25-2014, 02:40 PM
Well, we should never have a WR with a $14M cap number either. Andre Johnson took a paycut last season to make cap space for Brian Cushing. We can't alter his contract again until next season.... we have no choice but to cut him (+$3.6M) or suffer a $15.6M cap number. $16M for 2015 & $14.6M in 2016.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Andre did NOT take a pay cut. He restructured. What that means is they took $4 million of salary and converted it to a bonus. That means that Andre received that $4 million up front in cash, just like a bonus. IE: there was no cut. That allowed the Texans the ability to reduce their salary cap by $4 million in 2013 and spread that $4 million bonus over the remaining FUTURE years of Andres contract. That is just one of the reasons that add up to why the Texans have salary cap problems again in 2014. FYI as long as Andre is NOT in the last year of his contract he can restructure his contract. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

Dishman
01-25-2014, 04:05 PM
Now..... in his/her defense. & I've been waiting for him/her to say it, but it's like (s)he doesn't understand his/her own argument.... we're screwed with Andre. I mentioned earlier, we shouldn't ever pay anyone an $18M salary, or suffer an $18M cap number for any one player.

Well, we should never have a WR with a $14M cap number either. Andre Johnson took a paycut last season to make cap space for Brian Cushing. We can't alter his contract again until next season.... we have no choice but to cut him (+$3.6M) or suffer a $15.6M cap number. $16M for 2015 & $14.6M in 2016.

The last two seasons, he's proven that he can still play, but... instead of asking him to take a pay cut, we should have "extended him" through 2018. Looks like he'll be a productive player at least through 2016..... but $16M??

Rick Smith & Chris Olsen need to find a way to extend him after the 2014 season through the 2019 season. Expect him to play through 2017, but minimize the cap hit in 2018.


But Andre is the only case. Mario was allowed to play out his contract without extending him indefinitely, So was Antonio. We can cut OD & Manning today & our cap would be better off. We can cut Matt Schaub today & we'd be better off.

We can cut Jjo & our cap would be better off. However, he's only 29 years old & he's not terrible. He's not $11M good, or $12M (2015)....... 5 to 7 million dollars maybe.

Maybe McNair does talk AJ into restructuring once again, and puts him in the front office to replace Smith. :doot:

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 05:13 PM
Where do you come up with this stuff? Andre did NOT take a pay cut. He restructured. What that means is they took $4 million of salary and converted it to a bonus. That means that Andre received that $4 million up front in cash, just like a bonus. IE: there was no cut. That allowed the Texans the ability to reduce their salary cap by $4 million in 2013 and spread that $4 million bonus over the remaining FUTURE years of Andres contract. That is just one of the reasons that add up to why the Texans have salary cap problems again in 2014. FYI as long as Andre is NOT in the last year of his contract he can restructure his contract. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

You're right, I mispoke. It was a renegotiation. It's also my understanding that they have to wait a full year before they can alter his contract again. According to SI.com, Andre's deal was done in September. That would be too late to help us get new players into camp.

It is totally possible that I don't understand the intricacies as well as I should.

& though I agree with you that AJ's contract is symptomatic of the problem you believe runs rampant at Reliant, while you think the problem is they reallocated some of Andre's salary into future years, I believe they didn't reallocate enough & didn't push it out far enough.

infantrycak
01-25-2014, 06:07 PM
It's also my understanding that they have to wait a full year before they can alter his contract again. According to SI.com, Andre's deal was done in September. That would be too late to help us get new players into camp.

You are correct on the full year requirement.

Texian
01-25-2014, 06:21 PM
You're right, I mispoke. It was a renegotiation. It's also my understanding that they have to wait a full year before they can alter his contract again. According to SI.com, Andre's deal was done in September. That would be too late to help us get new players into camp.

It is totally possible that I don't understand the intricacies as well as I should.

& though I agree with you that AJ's contract is symptomatic of the problem you believe runs rampant at Reliant, while you think the problem is they reallocated some of Andre's salary into future years, I believe they didn't reallocate enough & didn't push it out far enough.

AJ restructured $5.5 mil over 4 years. Only 4 years because AJ is signed thru 2016. Max number of years bonus can be extended is 5 years but there must be 5 years remaining on the contract.

You admittedly say you don't understand the salary cap rules and procedures and yet you think it's a good idea to restructure more dollars for longer periods?

Somehow I get the idea and think you have maxed out all your credit cards, over the limit and you think that is a good idea. fiscal responsibility vs frivolous spending. The Texans have borrowed over $20 million from AJ's salary alone and somehow I think that you think this is a good idea.

Do you really think a team with $2 million in salary cap space can be competitive with teams that have $30-$50 million in salary cap space. 2 years in a row? 3 in a row?

thunderkyss
01-25-2014, 07:03 PM
Somehow I get the idea and think you have maxed out all your credit cards, over the limit and you think that is a good idea. fiscal responsibility vs frivolous spending. The Texans have borrowed over $20 million from AJ's salary alone and somehow I think that you think this is a good idea.


Are you saying it's not?


Do you really think a team with $2 million in salary cap space can be competitive with teams that have $30-$50 million in salary cap space. 2 years in a row? 3 in a row?

& the Bills & the Browns should rule the NFL.


The Patriots only have $5M more than we do. They'll carry $8M of dead money in 2014 (http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space2.php?Year=2014), we'll only carry $3M.

The 9ers, $1M difference between them & us. $1.9M of dead money.

The Seahawks have $4M less than we do.

JB
01-25-2014, 08:43 PM
I don't understand any of the cap stuff. Not sure anyone really does and I'm pretty sure that no one outside the nfl really does. Or that anyone outside nfl and Texans front office know the Texans cap situation. But I sure do get a laugh watching ya'll go back and forth.

Texian
01-25-2014, 10:25 PM
I don't understand any of the cap stuff. Not sure anyone really does and I'm pretty sure that no one outside the nfl really does. Or that anyone outside nfl and Texans front office know the Texans cap situation. But I sure do get a laugh watching ya'll go back and forth.

Speak for yourself. It's all in the CBA. Read it. Then you will know it and understand it. I have, several times.

https://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/2011CBA.pdf

infantrycak
01-25-2014, 10:29 PM
Speak for yourself. It's all in the CBA. Read it. Then you will know it and understand it. I have, several times.

https://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/2011CBA.pdf

The CBA is available. Info on player contracts is incomplete and frequently misreported.

JB
01-25-2014, 10:34 PM
The CBA is available. Info on player contracts is incomplete and frequently misreported.


Thanks. What I said but shorter and better

Texian
01-25-2014, 10:46 PM
You're right, I mispoke. It was a renegotiation. It's also my understanding that they have to wait a full year before they can alter his contract again. According to SI.com, Andre's deal was done in September. That would be too late to help us get new players into camp.


1. Andre's restructure was Sep 3.
2. It wasn't to get people into camp,
3. This is the 3rd straight year Andre has restructured.
4. $5 million of the 2014 salary cap is a result AJ's multiple restructuring and other bonuses.
5. AJ restructured last year to accommodate Cushing new contract and the increase to the 53 man roster.
6. AJ can restructure for a 4th straight year after Sep 3 but still prior to the start of the new league year.

Beginning of the new year (March) only the Top 51 contracts count against the salary cap. Usually about 5PM the day before the new season starts (usually Wedneday following Labor Day) the salary cap roster is expanded to include the final 53 man roster that must be salary cap compliant.

Texian
02-20-2014, 07:58 AM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 8m

NFL's salary cap now projected to rise to about $130 million, up 5 percent from $123 million last year, per league sources. More $ for all.

Insideop
02-20-2014, 10:20 AM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 8m

NFL's salary cap now projected to rise to about $130 million, up 5 percent from $123 million last year, per league sources. More $ for all.

Just heard the same thing on Sports Radio 610. If true that's good news for the Texans and maybe they will be able to keep Antonio, OD or others and still have enough to extend Watt and maybe sign some FA's too.

infantrycak
02-20-2014, 11:10 AM
Just heard the same thing on Sports Radio 610. If true that's good news for the Texans and maybe they will be able to keep Antonio, OD or others and still have enough to extend Watt and maybe sign some FA's too.

There is zero reason to extend Watt this year.

Texian
02-20-2014, 11:14 AM
Just heard the same thing on Sports Radio 610. If true that's good news for the Texans and maybe they will be able to keep Antonio, OD or others and still have enough to extend Watt and maybe sign some FA's too.

The $130 million based on the current situation would put the Texans in a comfortable position to take care of IR replacements, Practice Squad and LTBEs but not much more than that.

houstonspartan
02-20-2014, 11:27 AM
There is zero reason to extend Watt this year.


Agree. Also, just because we could have more money doesn't mean we should keep OD. May be time to move on from him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

infantrycak
02-20-2014, 04:17 PM
Agree. Also, just because we could have more money doesn't mean we should keep OD. May be time to move on from him.

OD doesn't save enough to cut just to cut IMO. It would depend on who would replace him to me.

aussie_texan
02-20-2014, 07:07 PM
OD doesn't save enough to cut just to cut IMO. It would depend on who would replace him to me.

a 2nd round pick? amaro? asj?

htownfan32
02-20-2014, 07:19 PM
a 2nd round pick? amaro? asj?

It's pretty 50/50 if Amaro makes it to the #33 pick. If Ebron goes early Amaro might be gone before we pick again.

aussie_texan
02-20-2014, 07:24 PM
It's pretty 50/50 if Amaro makes it to the #33 pick. If Ebron goes early Amaro might be gone before we pick again.

ofcourse. was more asking the question in response to finding out whether he would cut OD if we got one of the top 3-4 rookie TEs

infantrycak
02-20-2014, 09:10 PM
a 2nd round pick? amaro? asj?

Yes. In that mock draft simulator thread I picked Amaro in the 2nd. So I am not against the idea. 4th or later I would keep OD for a year and not bother trying to sign Graham.

DX-TEX
02-20-2014, 10:42 PM
Yes. In that mock draft simulator thread I picked Amaro in the 2nd. So I am not against the idea. 4th or later I would keep OD for a year and not bother trying to sign Graham.

I would keep Graham and cut OD. Old n busted is not what this team needs

steelbtexan
02-20-2014, 10:49 PM
Draft Crockett Gilmore in the 5th and/or Najvar in the 6/7th.

Cut OD and spend that $$$$ on Soliai.

thunderkyss
02-20-2014, 11:02 PM
I'd keep OD, let Graham walk.......

Take Watkins in the first, I want Moses in the second, but I'll take the best TE/OG/OT available. Grab a couple of TEs/OGs later in the draft, Andre Williams in the 5th, 6th. Then give Keenum Aj, Watkins, Hopkins, Posey, Cruz, Martin, Jean, OD & go win a championship.

infantrycak
02-20-2014, 11:20 PM
I would keep Graham and cut OD. Old n busted is not what this team needs

We don't have Graham, he is UFA. And young and half as good is not what this team needs.

Norg
02-21-2014, 12:04 AM
any whre between 27 mill and 7 mill is were u wanna be look at the Packers and Ravens two pretty much consistent Franchise ball clubs


sadly the Texans are not there

Norg
02-21-2014, 01:31 AM
I wonder what Graham is thinking should he say I need to get dat hell outta here and this might be my last chance to be a F/A and go for the highest payer

or maybe he stays here knowing that he has a good chance to leap frog OD or wait around cuz he knows OD will be cut if not this year then next by O brein

I would go with the first choice TBO im sure that's what his agent will say go with the sure bet GET DAT MONEY !!!

Insideop
02-21-2014, 07:39 AM
There is zero reason to extend Watt this year.

I thought this is the last year of his rookie contract. Does he have another year? :thinking:

Insideop
02-21-2014, 07:56 AM
We don't have Graham, he is UFA. And young and half as good is not what this team needs.

Whichever way they go (GG or OD) they need to draft another TE because we are thin at the position, and neither GG or OD can seem to stay healthy. I think both were out with injuries at the end of last season and left the Texans with only 1 TE by the last couple of games (Griffin, a rookie 6th rd pick). If "Obie" likes to run a 2 TE set like he did in NE I don't think he'll rely on just GG or OD and Griffin. Heck, he might want to keep both and draft one.

Hervoyel
02-21-2014, 09:36 AM
We don't have Graham, he is UFA. And young and half as good is not what this team needs.

That's what I've been thinking. Graham has just never put it all together in my opinion. Not sure why but when he got here I was hoping for a "better" OD. What we seem to have gotten was more like a "shadow" of OD.

Griffin can do that and he still has more upside while costing less to keep.

infantrycak
02-21-2014, 10:03 AM
I thought this is the last year of his rookie contract. Does he have another year? :thinking:

With the new CBA the contract is for four years and this is the last year of that period. BUT, the team has an option for a fifth year. Then there is the option of franchise tags. So:

2014 - rookie contract
2015 - team option extension
2016 - franchise

The Texans have the leverage. If they can get him to sign long term at something reasonable then great but if JJ demands a contract like some around here project then it makes no sense for the Texans to not play out their hand and leave the risk on JJ.

Playoffs
02-22-2014, 12:13 PM
John Clayton ‏@ClaytonESPN
According to a source, the projection for the 2014 salary cap is now at $132 million.

aussie_texan
02-22-2014, 07:36 PM
could we make a play at orkapo if we cut OD and schaub with that cap

IDEXAN
02-22-2014, 09:57 PM
could we make a play at orkapo if we cut OD and schaub with that cap

Or how about Demarcus Ware, don't know if Dallas can afford to keep him ?

steelbtexan
02-23-2014, 12:02 AM
could we make a play at orkapo if we cut OD and schaub with that cap

Draft Clowney and bring Orakpo home= pass rush problems solved for the next day.

Troy Chapman
02-25-2014, 10:59 AM
The Texans have until May 3rd to activate the 5th year option on Watt. The pay will be result of #3-#24 salaries at that position. Pretty good number if I recall.

The Texans could negotiate an extension this offseason to his rookie contract and lock him up for the foreseeable future. The Texans could activate the 5th year option. The Texans could do nothing and let him hit free agency next offseason with a massive bidding war that the Texans would lose.

Option #1 would be best.

As for OD & Graham. You let Graham walk. Graham is probably the #3 TE free agent, and the top two (J. Graham and D. Pitta) are likely to both get franchised. Making G. Graham one of the higher rated TE free agents...so he will get a good payday elsewhere. You stick with OD & Griffin. OD's contract is finished after the 2014 season. Draft another TE in this draft. Run with Griffin and 2014 rookie and TBA player for 2015.

Troy Chapman
02-25-2014, 11:03 AM
John Clayton ‏@ClaytonESPN

Great news if it keeps moving up, now to $132 million. Top 51 contract limitation hits on March 11th. That's when we will have a better idea on the final team salary cap.

DX-TEX
02-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Great news if it keeps moving up, now to $132 million. Top 51 contract limitation hits on March 11th. That's when we will have a better idea on the final team salary cap.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/25/source-cap-will-be-higher-than-132-million/

Now will be up to $135 million.

Gives the Raiders 70 million free.....damn

Troy Chapman
02-26-2014, 09:44 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/25/source-cap-will-be-higher-than-132-million/

Now will be up to $135 million.

Gives the Raiders 70 million free.....damn

Hope they don't spend it all at once....hehe.

Salary cap will be set come March 11th.

Troy Chapman
02-27-2014, 12:55 PM
About $8.2m under if the cap is set at $132m for the Texans.

steelbtexan
02-27-2014, 01:20 PM
About $8.2m under if the cap is set at $132m for the Texans.

Cutting OD/Schaub/AS with the 8.2 should be more than enough to sign Soliai and Orakpo in FA. Setting up the draft to be mainly an all offense draft.

Give me Clowney 1-1, sign Soliai and Orakpo in FA and draft Goodson in the 6th and I'm a very happy camper. The rest of the picks could be spent on offense.

Bring Brian Orakpo home!!!!!!!

Troy Chapman
02-27-2014, 01:33 PM
Cutting OD/Schaub/AS with the 8.2 should be more than enough to sign Soliai and Orakpo in FA. Setting up the draft to be mainly an all offense draft.

Give me Clowney 1-1, sign Soliai and Orakpo in FA and draft Goodson in the 6th and I'm a very happy camper. The rest of the picks could be spent on offense.

Bring Brian Orakpo home!!!!!!!

AS? You mean Antonio Smith...he is already a free agent. $8.125m in savings by releasing OD and Schaub. You need to remember that you still need to sign your draft class. The #1 draft pick signing will eat up all of the savings from Schaub and some of savings from OD.

Reports from OTC shows the Texans have been allotted approximately 7.5 mil to sign the rookie class year one, should use up about 4.6 mil of cap space. So you say effective cap space is about $3.5mil before any releasing of players.

TexansFTW
02-27-2014, 05:34 PM
Wow, Cap Space increased to likely $132 Mill this year. Doesn't mean we can go bananas, but it does mean we can have way more than we previously thought possible.

Brian O!

Troy Chapman
02-28-2014, 10:23 AM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 47m
Salary cap projected to rise to about $133 million this year, expected to break $140 million next year and $150 million by 2016, per source

infantrycak
02-28-2014, 10:33 AM
The #1 draft pick signing will eat up all of the savings from Schaub and some of savings from OD.

This is true if the Texans take all of Schaub's dead money this year. If they June 1st him his cap space will cover all the rookies and then some.

Not advocating - just pointing out it is an option.

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 12:10 PM
About $8.2m under if the cap is set at $132m for the Texans.

According Spotrac Cap Tracker (http://www.spotrac.com/cap-tracker/nfl/), Texans have $9,221,766 cap space

Troy Chapman
02-28-2014, 01:42 PM
According Spotrac Cap Tracker (http://www.spotrac.com/cap-tracker/nfl/), Texans have $9,221,766 cap space

Yep, there are multiple sources for this information. Nobody truly knows what it is. Spotrac could be using a different total cap number than I am. We all have a good idea where they stand right now.

badboy
02-28-2014, 02:01 PM
This is what some of us had predicted after the new CBA was signed but then last year's almost nil increase stunned many. As much as I like Orakpo I must admit to feeling a bit nervous signing FA even if one should be in his prime. If the deal was right, hard to say no. Any thoughts on skins tagging him?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5215/brian-orakpo


"That’s similar to the expected value of the franchise designation, which would allow Washington to offer Orakpo a one-year contract for approximately $11 million. Allen said the Redskins “really haven’t gotten into those types of specifics yet.”

Orakpo said frequently during the season that he would like to remain with the Redskins, who took him with the No. 13 pick in the draft in 2009. The mutual affection between player and team helped the Redskins sign cornerback DeAngelo Hallto a four-year contract worth a reported $17 million earlier this week.
Hall, who has played with the Redskins for parts of the last six seasons, played last season under a one-year, $1.25 million contract."


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/21/contract-brian-orakpo-priority-redskins-bruce-alle/#ixzz2ueHoPvw3
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 02:32 PM
This is what some of us had predicted after the new CBA was signed but then last year's almost nil increase stunned many. As much as I like Orakpo I must admit to feeling a bit nervous signing FA even if one should be in his prime. If the deal was right, hard to say no. Any thoughts on skins tagging him?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5215/brian-orakpo


"That’s similar to the expected value of the franchise designation, which would allow Washington to offer Orakpo a one-year contract for approximately $11 million. Allen said the Redskins “really haven’t gotten into those types of specifics yet.”

Orakpo said frequently during the season that he would like to remain with the Redskins, who took him with the No. 13 pick in the draft in 2009. The mutual affection between player and team helped the Redskins sign cornerback DeAngelo Hallto a four-year contract worth a reported $17 million earlier this week.
Hall, who has played with the Redskins for parts of the last six seasons, played last season under a one-year, $1.25 million contract."


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/21/contract-brian-orakpo-priority-redskins-bruce-alle/#ixzz2ueHoPvw3
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

This is a do or die season for DC Haslett...........he will kill to keep Orakpo this year.

WolverineFan
02-28-2014, 02:52 PM
This is a do or die season for DC Haslett...........he will kill to keep Orakpo this year.

Don't they also have a ton of cap room this year with the sanctions over? They can afford to pay him and he would like to stay there. I see them reaching an agreement.

badboy
02-28-2014, 02:52 PM
This is a do or die season for DC Haslett...........he will kill to keep Orakpo this year.
That is my feeling also. Nothing seems to break in our favor whether it is a very good FA we can afford or an outstanding draft pick at 1.1

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 03:37 PM
Don't they also have a ton of cap room this year with the sanctions over? They can afford to pay him and he would like to stay there. I see them reaching an agreement.

They've got ~ $30 mil to work with............and about $50 mil in holes.

Texian
02-28-2014, 05:44 PM
Aaron Wilson ‏@RavensInsider 5m

NFL announces $133 million salary cap. Teams are required to spend average of $118.37 million annually on players during four-year span

steelbtexan
02-28-2014, 05:54 PM
AS? You mean Antonio Smith...he is already a free agent. $8.125m in savings by releasing OD and Schaub. You need to remember that you still need to sign your draft class. The #1 draft pick signing will eat up all of the savings from Schaub and some of savings from OD.

Reports from OTC shows the Texans have been allotted approximately 7.5 mil to sign the rookie class year one, should use up about 4.6 mil of cap space. So you say effective cap space is about $3.5mil before any releasing of players.

3.5 +4.5 OD + 4 Schaub= More than enough to sign Orakpo and the cap is going to go up more in 2015 when the new TV deal kicks in so you can do a contract that has more bonus $$$$ in the 2nd yr. Even though I will concede most of that extra cap $$$$$ will go to re-signing Watt.

steelbtexan
02-28-2014, 06:14 PM
They've got ~ $30 mil to work with............and about $50 mil in holes.

With 30 mil I would rather get 1 impact pass rusher and fill the NT in FA. Sign a vet QB for 3-5 mil a yr. Then fill the rest of the holes and add depth in a very deep draft. Do you think these 3 holes can be filled using the 30 million?

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 06:48 PM
With 30 mil I would rather get 1 impact pass rusher and fill the NT in FA. Sign a vet QB for 3-5 mil a yr. Then fill the rest of the holes and add depth in a very deep draft. Do you think these 3 holes can be filled using the 30 million?
I was referring to the Skins in my post??????

DX-TEX
02-28-2014, 06:49 PM
SMCWashington ‏@SMCWashington · 1h
Espn reports that free agent LB Brian Orakpo may hit the open market.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ImCpNqbJw

Orakpo, Clowney, Watt, Cushing, Mercilus.....:trophy:

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 07:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ImCpNqbJw

Orakpo, Clowney, Watt, Cushing, Mercilus.....:trophy:

Mercilus does not belong in that group, and Cushing is going to need a strong ILB to make up for his loss of lateral movement.

DX-TEX
02-28-2014, 07:11 PM
Mercilus does not belong in that group, and Cushing is going to need a strong ILB to make up for his loss of lateral movement.

O ye of little faith!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bdt0QgVCIAATpZM.jpg:large

:texflag:

CloakNNNdagger
02-28-2014, 08:05 PM
Maybe Orakpo would consider coming back to Houston with a "hometown" discount........maybe not.......still doubt that Haslett doesn't hog tie him with the Skins.

MistaRed
02-28-2014, 08:23 PM
I wish orakpo would come here. Can't get too excited though because of our situation.

thunderkyss
02-28-2014, 09:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ImCpNqbJw

Orakpo, Clowney, Watt, Cushing, Mercilus.....:trophy:

& DeQwell Jackson

leebigeztx
02-28-2014, 10:10 PM
I would like to see linval joseph or red bryant along with Jason Worilds. I would also like to se some 1 yr prove it deals to some cb like tracy porter and jenkins.

TEXANRED
03-01-2014, 08:58 AM
& DeQwell Jackson
And while we are at it we can trade for Sherman and Revis.

acal21
03-01-2014, 11:51 AM
if the texans can get some deals done in free agency thats great... but if they do cut schaub they need to eat up all that dead money this year, I'm a believer that any team can make a run for the Super Bowl but you also have to put yourself in a good position for the future

The Pencil Neck
03-01-2014, 04:04 PM
And while we are at it we can trade for Sherman and Revis.

Well. D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Browns. So it's not out of the realm of possibility of us getting him. Granted, he's probably going to the Broncos but there's still a chance.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-01-2014, 04:17 PM
Well. D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Browns. So it's not out of the realm of possibility of us getting him. Granted, he's probably going to the Broncos but there's still a chance.


He'll go to NE IMO


Your man... Pots and pans

Playoffs
03-01-2014, 05:44 PM
With cap set, a look at Texans' free agency (http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/cap-set-look-texans-free-agency)
The NFL salary cap for the 2014 season is set at $133 million, up $10 million from 2013. And it's plenty more than the initial $126-$128 million projections.

ESPN's Adam Schefter reported the cap is expected to reach $140 million next year and $150 million by 2016. Those would be some big jumps.

So what does it mean for the Texans this season? Well, they'll have a little more room to work with...

CloakNNNdagger
03-02-2014, 10:46 AM
JJo has had a couple of years of multiple injuries and surgeries, and decreased performance. I like JJo, and he, surprising to me, scored a respectable 6.5+ at ProFootballFocus last year.........before his season ending injury. Not much was revealed about the injury. I was able to determine that he had sustained a torn ligament in a toe and underwent surgical repair. Important in this, the only toe that you would typically consider operating on would be a Turf Toe...........a grade III Turf Toe which reflects very severe damage to the toe. Despite the very debilitating nature of the injury ,very few turf toes ever will go on to surgery.

Rehab from this surgery does not allow return to play short of 4 months. But players will almost universally complain of restricting pain for 1 year. And with time, the joint almost inevitably becomes stiff and arthritic.

Keeping all of this in mind, OB will not be able to evaluate JJo and expect any truly useful information as to how his performance will have been affected by his recent surgery for a long time to come.........certainly not before the draft and doubtfully by the June 1 cut date.

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 11:43 AM
...certainly not before the draft and doubtfully by the June 1 cut date.

Just for clarity, the important part about June 1st is cuts made after that date.

CloakNNNdagger
03-02-2014, 03:28 PM
Just for clarity, the important part about June 1st is cuts made after that date.

Unless you may want more FA money to play with this year rather than next year.

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 03:30 PM
Unless you may want more FA to play with this year.

No, more money this year comes from cutting them after June 1st, not before (other than designating them to be treated as post June 1st cuts).

Cut before June 1st - all on 2014.
Cut after June 1st (or so designated) - split between 2014 & 15.

CloakNNNdagger
03-02-2014, 03:58 PM
No, more money this year comes from cutting them after June 1st, not before (other than designating them to be treated as post June 1st cuts).

Cut before June 1st - all on 2014.
Cut after June 1st (or so designated) - split between 2014 & 15.

Gotcha. Had it bass ackwards. But, either way, it seems that OB would rather know by June what he has in JJo?

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 04:10 PM
Gotcha. Had it bass ackwards. But, either way, it seems that OB would rather know by June what he has in JJo?

It is counterintuitive. I agree OB would rather know as ASAP. JJo is a rather key piece. The need and availability of a replacement could be the difference in whether Schaub is taken as a June 1st cut.

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 10:01 AM
I still feel you do not nominate Schaub as June 1 cut. Need that money in the free agency period.

infantrycak
03-03-2014, 10:06 AM
I still feel you do not nominate Schaub as June 1 cut. Need that money in the free agency period.

Depends which free agency period you are talking about. Making Schaub a June 1st cut means more money for free agency this year and less next year.

steelbtexan
03-03-2014, 10:09 AM
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.

WolverineFan
03-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.

I'm not much of a cap guy either, but I fail to see what we gain by cutting Joseph. Despite the injury issues, he's still the best CB on a team that needs CB's.

steelbtexan
03-03-2014, 10:26 AM
I'm not much of a cap guy either, but I fail to see what we gain by cutting Joseph. Despite the injury issues, he's still the best CB on a team that needs CB's.

Except he was below avg when he was able to play and that $$$$ could be tetter spent elsewhere. Say if cutting JoJo meant you could sign Orakpo and Rashean Mathis for close to the vet min (who was as good as JoJo last yr) you would be better off. IMHO

WolverineFan
03-03-2014, 10:35 AM
Except he was below avg when he was able to play and that $$$$ could be tetter spent elsewhere. Say if cutting JoJo meant you could sign Orakpo and Rashean Mathis for close to the vet min (who was as good as JoJo last yr) you would be better off. IMHO

Joseph graded out as a top-25 CB on PFF. He did struggle with injuries, but I don't see how cutting him and signing a 34-year old as his replacement is the solution. I also don't see why Mathis would settle for a vet minimum deal after a good year at the tail end of his career. He's going where the money's at.

steelbtexan
03-03-2014, 10:39 AM
Joseph graded out as a top-25 CB on PFF. He did struggle with injuries, but I don't see how cutting him and signing a 34-year old as his replacement is the solution.

Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.

I'm really just trying to find the cap $$$$ to bring Orakpo home. He/Watt/Clowney would bring to the defense what it has been missing.

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 10:53 AM
JoJo needs more pass rush from the LB's, he and Kareem got hung out to dry a lot last year.

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 10:53 AM
Depends which free agency period you are talking about. Making Schaub a June 1st cut means more money for free agency this year and less next year.

Initial free agency period. If there is a player they Texans really want; would be best to have the money now to sign him as opposed to waiting until June 1 to sign some players.

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 10:58 AM
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.

Cut JoJo today save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $7.5m in dead money.
Cut JoJo today with June 1 designation save (I think) $7.5m towards the cap, take on $3.75m dead money in 2014 and $3.75m dead money in 2015.

Not much difference just depends how you want to take on the dead money. But honestly I don't see him going anywhere for 2014. Maybe a pay cut but I doubt it. I just hope they don't extend him to lower the cap hit now. Just let him play out his contract, or at least play out 2014 then release next offseason.

infantrycak
03-03-2014, 10:58 AM
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.

Dead money.

Schaub (2014 cap hit - $14.125, 2015 - $17): straight cut $10.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.5 mil 2014 and $7 mil 2015

JJo (2014 cap hit - $11.25, 2015 - $12.25): straight cut $7.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.75 mil 2014 and $3.75 mil 2015

But remember, cutting JJo to get Orakpo doesn't get you another starting CB so you need money for that as well.

Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.

And your penchant for hyperbole just ran amuck.

Edit - sorry, thought you were talking McCain.

Cut JoJo today save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $7.5m in dead money.
Cut JoJo today with June 1 designation save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $3.75m in dead money in 2014 and $3.75m in dead money in 2015.

No. If he is a June 1st cut, it would make $7.375 cap space in 2014.

WolverineFan
03-03-2014, 11:02 AM
Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.

I'm really just trying to find the cap $$$$ to bring Orakpo home. He/Watt/Clowney would bring to the defense what it has been missing.

Mathis played very well last year. It was nice to see because he was a very good player when he was younger. However, this is also the same guy who will be 34 this year and has been on IR in 3 of the past 6 seasons.

I'd love to bring Orakpo home as well, but cutting your best cover guy to do it is not the way IMO. CB is one of our weakest positions on defense.

Texian
03-03-2014, 11:04 AM
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.

According to the CBA, IIRC, you can DESIGNATE (2) players as June 1 cuts. Short term GAIN = long term PAIN

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 11:06 AM
Dead money.

Schaub (2014 cap hit - $14.125, 2015 - $17): straight cut $10.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.5 mil 2014 and $7 mil 2015

JJo (2014 cap hit - $11.25, 2015 - $12.25): straight cut $7.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.75 mil 2014 and $3.75 mil 2015

But remember, cutting JJo to get Orakpo doesn't get you another starting CB so you need money for that as well.



And your penchant for hyperbole just ran amuck.

Edit - sorry, thought you were talking McCain.



No. If he is a June 1st cut, it would make $7.375 cap space in 2014.

I was editing as you posted.

infantrycak
03-03-2014, 11:08 AM
I was editing as you posted.

Cool. I do that all the time - post, look at it again, see a mistake and go back to fix it.

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 11:09 AM
Cool. I do that all the time - post, look at it again, see a mistake and go back to fix it.

Rogo. Just glad they finally set the number. Now I have my spreadsheet updated properly.

badboy
03-03-2014, 11:44 AM
So in a year where there are minimal starting FAs for positions we could strengthen, there is money to use? Seems to be same with the draft 2014. sigh

infantrycak
03-03-2014, 12:33 PM
So in a year where there are minimal starting FAs for positions we could strengthen, there is money to use? Seems to be same with the draft 2014. sigh

D'Quell Jackson is out there but we do not appear to be making any move. There will be upgrades to McCain available as there are for Newton. Also possibly for NT.

ChampionTexan
03-03-2014, 01:58 PM
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.
For any player removed from the Team’s roster, or whose Contract is assigned to another Club via waivers or trade, on or before June 1 in any League Year prior to the Final League Year, or at any time during the Final League Year, any unamortized signing bonus amounts will be included in Team Salary for such League Year, except that for each League Year preceding the Final League Year, each Club may desig-nate up to two Player Contracts that, if terminated on or prior to June 1 and if not renegotiated after the last regular season game of the prior League Year, shall be treated (except to the extent prescribed by Section 6(d)(iv) below) as if terminated on June 2, i.e., the Salary Cap charge for each such contract will remain in the Club’s Team Salary until June 2, at which time its Paragraph 5 Salary and any unearned LTBE incentives will no longer be counted and any unamortized signing bonus will be treated as set forth in Subsection (2) below.

Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).

I think where many people get confused, though, is when they hear that “player x” could be designated a June 1 cut and immediately jump to conclusions that it means a spending spree in March. The league allows each team to designate up to two players per year as a June 1 cut for cap purposes prior to June 1. It’s the one concession that was given to the players as it allows a player to be cut in March and have time to explore free agency but have his cap hit spread out over two seasons, thus creating more cap space in the current year. The issue though is the mechanism by which this works.

When you designate someone as a June 1 cut the player and his current contract remain on the books until June 1.

LINK (http://overthecap.com/explaining-the-june-1st-designation/)

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.

Dutchrudder
03-03-2014, 02:10 PM
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK (http://overthecap.com/explaining-the-june-1st-designation/)

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.

I suppose if a team was very close to the cap they could ride the line until June 2nd, and then wait for the space to be freed up. Then spend that money on their draft pick's contracts. That might be one way to finagle a way to utilize the space in free agency, but it might mean your new guys miss a few days of a OTAs. I can't really think of any good examples of guys who were designated June 1st cuts though.

infantrycak
03-03-2014, 02:13 PM
Spot on champion.

I can't really think of any good examples of guys who were designated June 1st cuts though.

Here is a list of 10 teams last year - Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/ten-nfl-teams-gain-2013-cap-space-june-230504549.html)

Troy Chapman
03-03-2014, 02:22 PM
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK (http://overthecap.com/explaining-the-june-1st-designation/)

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.

IF the dead money hit is big, some teams like to spread it out over two years....but carrying it all until June 1 is the penalty for doing so. So teams need to relief spread over two years. Some may look at 2015 and see some contracts expiring, so they spread it over to get more gain this year as opposed to 2015.

Thanks for the research. The June 1 deal can be confusing for some. Just look at the numbers to understand how it works.

CloakNNNdagger
03-03-2014, 02:25 PM
This piece leads you through step by step the implications of the June 1st designation to both the player and the team. It looks like it can get tricky depending on the structure of the player's contract.

Salary Re-Capping: The Post-June 1 Designation And Quintin Mikell (http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2013/6/1/4387044/salary-cap-accounting-the-post-june-1-designation-and-quintin-mikell)

thunderkyss
03-03-2014, 04:43 PM
So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.

I think Schaub as a June 1st cut is the way to go. $3.625M is nothing, especially considering the league just gave us $10M. We won't realize the savings until June 2nd, but it's substantial compared to cutting him before. It more than doubles the money available. >$7M in 2014, & ~$10M in 2015 (even though we're carrying $7M in dead money).

I don't think it's fleecing our future, the money for Schaub is already accounted for in the cap for 2014 & 2015. $14M for 2014, $17M for 2015. Making him a June 1st cut adds money to our cap both years.

steelbtexan
03-03-2014, 04:55 PM
According to the CBA, IIRC, you can DESIGNATE (2) players as June 1 cuts. Short term GAIN = long term PAIN

So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.

thunderkyss
03-03-2014, 06:14 PM
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.

I think we're in cap hell if we don't expect our paid players to perform up to their cap hit.

Schaub..... no brainer. I don't believe Schaub's mother thinks we should take a $14M cap hit for him.

Andre.... I love the guy, he should retire a Texan, but no one is worth $15M but an elite QB.

Johnathan Joseph... he hasn't been worth $11M in 2 of the last three years. He needs to take a paycut (imo), renegotiate, or try to peddle his wares elsewhere. We gain $3.7M to cut him, I'd rather ask him to take a $5M paycut.

Duane Brown.... didn't perform like an elite LT last season. $8M is very good LT money. I reasonably expect him to earn that money in 2014, but I'm not against drafting an OT in the first round to put him on notice.

Arian Foster.... I expect him to earn his $8M & then some. He's due.

Chris Myers... I expect him to earn every bit of $7M

Owen Daniels.... turns 32 in November, coming off a broken leg.... Tony Gonzales only cost the Chiefs $5.3M last year, Owens going to hit us for $6.2M

Daniel Manning.... I don't like it, but I'd rather bring him back for $6M than try to find someone with his work ethic & leadership skills. But it's a gamble.

Yeah... I can see "cap hell" but I don't think it's about mismanaging the cap, it's more like hitting snake eyes on every roll of the dice.

Texian
03-08-2014, 04:17 AM
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.

I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.

Texian
03-08-2014, 04:27 AM
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.

I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and the facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 million to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new mediocre players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.

Marshall
03-08-2014, 06:46 AM
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK (http://overthecap.com/explaining-the-june-1st-designation/)

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.

There is no long term benefit, but there is short term benefit because it opens up cap space for the immediate season and get's you under this season's cap. Future dead money and less to work with in FA are the costs of using the June 1 designation.

It's similar to the benefits of a payday loan. You get the cash right away, but the interest is outrageous. But it's worth it to avoid late payment penalties, foreclosures and repossessions.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 09:04 AM
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$.


That's one way to look at it. If we make Schaub a June 1st cut, we'll be $40M under the cap in 2015... We are currently $80M under the cap for 2016. I think what you are seeing is a changing of the guard, where the Colts are parting ways with players from the old regime, as they build for the new.

Same thing happened to us 3 years ago, only difference is that Marvin Harris decided to retire & we didn't have anyone to step into Andre's place.




What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell.


Gosder Cherilus was given a $14M signing bonus & his first two years salary are $1M & $1M..... his 2015 salary will be $4M & he'll get paid $7M for 2016 & 2017. How's that front loaded?

I wonder what they plan on doing with Robert Mathis.


It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.


The lesson they need to learn is how to get the most out of their players. The "bad contracts" you are talking about are Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Johnathan Joseph, Arian Foster, Duane Brown, Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, Daniel Manning, Brian Cushing, Kareem Jackson, Jj Watt, Shane Lecler, & Whitney Mercilus. In that order.

We could cut Andre, Matt, Jjo, & Arian & gain money towards the cap. The only thing bad about those contracts is that only one of those guys played like they should have a big contract in 2013 & 2014.

We can cut Myers & OD & gain money towards the cap. Again, Myers earned his money. Owen is the best TE we have on the roster, when healthy, he's worth his money.

We can cut Karrem & Lecler & gain money towards the cap, but both of those guys earned their money (Kareem made some bone headed mistakes, but he's cheap for a starting corner).

We can cut Jj & it would be net neutral, neither gain or lose. I shouldn't have to tell you how much sense that does not make.

Cutting Brian Cushing & Duane Brown are the only contracts that would hurt us "cap wise" They're the only ones I can think of that could be considred "bad contracts" Because all the other ones are a net positive.

Duane Brown may not have played up to expectations, but we gave us a hometown discount when we signed him & he definitely played up to that level, so it doesn't make sense to cut him.

Brian Cushing did not contribute as much as his contract would suggest, but not because he couldn't play at that level.... he was playing pretty well, before he got hurt. This injury being an LCL (& not an ACL or Achilles) we can expect Cushing to come back & be the man we're paying him to be... so it would make no sense cutting him.

The Colts will be signing "their" guys soon enough, & they will be in "cap hell." What they are doing now, is being cautious & frugal with their FA signings, just like we were until we signed Jjo & DMan.

They'll continue to give out $15M+ signing bonuses, backloading contracts as long as it makes sense.

What we can't do is pay Andre the same way we're paying Andre & pay Jj the way everyone wants to pay him.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 09:31 AM
There is no long term benefit, but there is short term benefit because it opens up cap space for the immediate season and get's you under this season's cap. Future dead money and less to work with in FA are the costs of using the June 1 designation.

It's similar to the benefits of a payday loan. You get the cash right away, but the interest is outrageous. But it's worth it to avoid late payment penalties, foreclosures and repossessions.

The June 1st cut maximizes the available cap money over the next two years.

If we cut Matt Schaub now without the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $4M
2015 cap goes up $17M
2016 cap goes up $19M

If we cut Matt with the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $10M
2015 cap goes up $10M
2016 cap goes up $19M

My opinion, we're not getting ahead if we cut Matt only to sign a vet for $4M. We need more than a QB to replace Schaub if we're going to get back to winning in the short term. We should use the June 1st designation on him then we can sign players with cap hits of:
$4M veteran QB
$5M starting ILB (like D'Qwell Jackson)
$1M slot reciever

It may be wishful thinking, but I think we can get Edelman, or Meachum for a $1M cap hit, maybe even Josh Cribbs who would make an excellent slot reciever imo. But that's if we're restricted only to using money created by cutting Schaub, which we're not.

If we were instead able to talk Matt into taking a pay-cut to $4M, then cut him as a June 1st 2015 cut we'll gain:
$10M in 2014
$14M in 2015
$16M in 2016

But I doubt Rick Smith has the skillz to pull that off.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 09:37 AM
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 million to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new mediocre players.

You raise solid points but IMO oversell Indy's situation a bit. They are going to take chunks out of that $80 mil to retain folks to maintain their level of play, e.g. Vonte Davis who they have had for a total of $2.7 mil for the last two years who in all likelihood will be lost if not signed to a contract larger than the $8 mil/year Grimes contract. They are going to take a hit on either performance or cap for Brown as well. Our need to retain list for significant players is nil this offseason.

The lesson they need to learn is how to get the most out of their players. The "bad contracts" you are talking about are Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Johnathan Joseph, Arian Foster, Duane Brown, Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, Daniel Manning, Brian Cushing, Kareem Jackson, Jj Watt, Shane Lecler, & Whitney Mercilus. In that order.

How are you defining bad contract? Duane Brown is playing for well less than his market value. JJ, KJ and Mercilus are on dirt cheap rookie contracts. Even Mercilus isn't overpaid on his performance level and JJ is monumentally under market value.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 09:56 AM
You raise solid points but IMO oversell Indy's situation a bit. They are going to take chunks out of that $80 mil to retain folks to maintain their level of play, e.g. Vonte Davis who they have had for a total of $2.7 mil for the last two years who in all likelihood will be lost if not signed to a contract larger than the $8 mil/year Grimes contract. They are going to take a hit on either performance or cap for Brown as well. Our need to retain list for significant players is nil this offseason.



How are you defining bad contract? Duane Brown is playing for well less than his market value. JJ, KJ and Mercilus are on dirt cheap rookie contracts. Even Mercilus isn't overpaid on his performance level and JJ is monumentally under market value.

I'm pointing to those guys as the reason we don't have $80M of cap space. I don't think they are "bad contracts" in the real sense of the word, just trying to meet Texian halfway.

Texian
03-08-2014, 11:04 AM
I'm pointing to those guys as the reason we don't have $80M of cap space. I don't think they are "bad contracts" in the real sense of the word, just trying to meet Texian halfway.

The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.

If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.

As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.

D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 12:24 PM
The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.


You must be talking about Andre's money. That's the only place such a description can come close to true. Except he's still one of the better receivers in the league & we're paying him as such.


If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.

As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.


How do you figure? Gosder signed a $35M contract. Only $7.8M is accounted for in the first two years... 22% of the contract. If he is cut in year 3 (2015) there's still $8.7M that must be accounted for (http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Gosder%20Cherilus&Position=RT&Team=Colts). They lose $1.8M towards their salary cap.

Schaub's contract allows us to cut him in the third year (2014) & we're up $4M.... Cut him in year 4 & we're up $10M, year 5... $15M


D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.

Schaub's on a much bigger contract, $60M vs $22m. We cut Schaub after 2 years & we save $4M towards the cap, they only save $1M more & you think that's a better structure??

I'm sorry... I'm sure your way of thinking is based in logic, but for the life of me I can't see it. Sounds like "anything but the Texans' way" hate to me.

Kinda like "more Catholic than the Pope" thinking.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 12:45 PM
As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.

D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.

Gosder Cherilus - net cap savings after 2nd season.
D'Quell Jackson - after 2nd season.

Matt Schaub - after 2nd season.
Brian Cushing - after 3rd season.
Danieal Manning - after 2nd season.
Owen Daniels - after 2nd season.
JJo - dead even in 3rd, net savings after.
Arian Foster - after 2nd season.
Duane Brown - after 3rd season.
Chris Myers - after 2nd season.

Looks like you are exaggerating the difference.

Texian
03-08-2014, 01:37 PM
Looks like you are exaggerating the difference.

Not when you consider the amounts. On average Colts contracts offer a substantial cap savings after their 2nd and 3rd years. The Texans contracts usually don't offer a substantial cap savings until after their 3rd and 4th years.

Texian
03-08-2014, 01:51 PM
You must be talking about Andre's money. That's the only place such a description can come close to true. Except he's still one of the better receivers in the league & we're paying him as such.



How do you figure? Gosder signed a $35M contract. Only $7.8M is accounted for in the first two years... 22% of the contract. If he is cut in year 3 (2015) there's still $8.7M that must be accounted for (http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Gosder%20Cherilus&Position=RT&Team=Colts). They lose $1.8M towards their salary cap.

Schaub's contract allows us to cut him in the third year (2014) & we're up $4M.... Cut him in year 4 & we're up $10M, year 5... $15M



Schaub's on a much bigger contract, $60M vs $22m. We cut Schaub after 2 years & we save $4M towards the cap, they only save $1M more & you think that's a better structure??

I'm sorry... I'm sure your way of thinking is based in logic, but for the life of me I can't see it. Sounds like "anything but the Texans' way" hate to me.

Kinda like "more Catholic than the Pope" thinking.

You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle. You on the other hand would not only max out your credit limit but would also finesse and finagle ways to exceed your credit limit much the way the Texans currently have done. You would then pay the minimum payment plus any amounts over your credit limit. Therefore each new year, I will have more available credit and considerably more $$$ to spend while your credit card is still maxed out and you're still making the minimum payment.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 02:03 PM
You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle.

That's ridiculous. Nobody starts with a fresh cap every year. You're either paying for players, or you're not. Tom Brady has a contract that runs through the next 5 years. They can not cut him & come out ahead for the next 3 years.

This is the Patriots we're talking about, the team you hold up on a pedestal for their brilliant cap management. They have $12M of cap room now, we have $8M. We both fall short of the Colts $80M, but the Patriots will somehow find a way to field a competitive team in 2014.

Why is that?

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 02:08 PM
You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle. You on the other hand would not only max out your credit limit but would also finesse and finagle ways to exceed your credit limit much the way the Texans currently have done. You would then pay the minimum payment plus any amounts over your credit limit. Therefore each new year, I will have more available credit and considerably more $$$ to spend while your credit card is still maxed out and you're still making the minimum payment.

& the way you're talking about paying minimum amount & exceeding my limit... that only makes sense (fits this application) if we're paying for players who are no longer here. We aren't.

Every dime we spent in 2013 went to players who are on the roster (IR included).

If we cut Schaub & push the dead money (which is what I want to do) it would be a rare moment in Rick Smiths tenure, if not the first time.

I wanted to extend Antonio Smith last offseason instead of paying him $8M. Convert that salary into a signing bonus & lock him up for the next three years. Back load the contract & cut him with very little cap implication 4 or 5 years from now. That's not "mortgaging the future" if you believe Antonio has 3 good years left.

Texian
03-08-2014, 02:14 PM
That's ridiculous. Nobody starts with a fresh cap every year. You're either paying for players, or you're not.

The point being is I never have to borrow money to make payroll and I start each new year with enough money in the bank to hire a few high profile employees and several more above average employees to improve my depth.

You have to make arrangements at the bank, again, to borrow more money in order to make your payroll. You then only have enough money to pay minimum wage to the dozen or so players you need to complete your roster. Your depth is a reflection of what you're paying for.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 02:57 PM
The point being is I never have to borrow money to make payroll and I start each new year with enough money in the bank to hire a few high profile employees and several more above average employees to improve my depth.

You have to make arrangements at the bank, again, to borrow more money in order to make your payroll. You then only have enough money to pay minimum wage to the dozen or so players you need to complete your roster. Your depth is a reflection of what you're paying for.

I don't think that's very realistic. It's really all cyclical depending on the state of your team. We were exactly where we should have been considering we thought we were two players away when we signed Jjo & DMan.

We just failed to capitalize on the investment we made. Whether that was due to coaching, injury, or poor evaluation of talent. The Patriots have been here, the Ravens were recently, the Steelers were recently, The Colts were recently, the Seahawks will have their day.

Texian
03-08-2014, 03:07 PM
& the way you're talking about paying minimum amount & exceeding my limit... that only makes sense (fits this application) if we're paying for players who are no longer here. We aren't.

Every dime we spent in 2013 went to players who are on the roster (IR included).

If we cut Schaub & push the dead money (which is what I want to do) it would be a rare moment in Rick Smiths tenure, if not the first time.

I wanted to extend Antonio Smith last offseason instead of paying him $8M. Convert that salary into a signing bonus & lock him up for the next three years. Back load the contract & cut him with very little cap implication 4 or 5 years from now. That's not "mortgaging the future" if you believe Antonio has 3 good years left.

Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times with 5X the money to spend than the Texans, the Texans are still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.

ObsiWan
03-08-2014, 03:15 PM
Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times with 5X the money to spend than the Texans, the Texans are still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.

Changing?
Yes.

Getting better?
That remains to be seen. We've all seen players that excel on one team, leave for a "sweet" F/A payday and then fail miserably with the new squad.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 03:16 PM
Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times, the Texans still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.

We could have easily signed D'Qwell Jackson & depending on the structure of Red Bryant's deal, we probably could have done that too.

The Jags can do it 10 times over, that's not what's going to make them better.

Had we avoided injury to key players, Arian, Cushing, OD, Manning & the other Texans played up to their contracts, most notably Matt Schaub, we'd have been in the divisional round again. Can't say the same for the Jags.

Our problem isn't that we've mortgaged our future, it's that we paid guys like Derek Newton & Brice McCain $1M. While they paid that money to Ty Hilton & Vontae Davis.

Texian
03-08-2014, 03:35 PM
Changing?
Yes.

Getting better?
That remains to be seen. We've all seen players that excel on one team, leave for a "sweet" F/A payday and then fail miserably with the new squad.

Putting all the if's and's and but's aside, the point and the question is: Who has the competitive advantage?

We could have easily signed D'Qwell Jackson & depending on the structure of Red Bryant's deal, we probably could have done that too.

The Jags can do it 10 times over, that's not what's going to make them better.

Had we avoided injury to key players, Arian, Cushing, OD, Manning & the other Texans played up to their contracts, most notably Matt Schaub, we'd have been in the divisional round again. Can't say the same for the Jags.

Our problem isn't that we've mortgaged our future, it's that we paid guys like Derek Newton & Brice McCain $1M. While they paid that money to Ty Hilton & Vontae Davis.

By easily if you mean by pushing as much dead money to 2015 as possible and restructuring several more contracts and borrowing more money from the future then YES.

The Texans are currently $10 million under the cap, of which $5 million must be allocated to IR replacements, LTBEs and Practice Squad. That leaves $5 million to replace 15 contracts now missing as a result of free agency, then the answer is a BIG FAT NO!

Now if want to start with all your if's and's and but's, what about this and what about thats, finesse and finagle then you can make a case for signing Jackson. There is NO WAY the Texans could sign another 6 or 7 players of similar value like both the Colts and Jaguars can. Regardless what your Hocus Pocus bag of tricks is telling you, It Ain't Gonna Happen!

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 03:50 PM
Now if want to start with all your if's and's and but's, what about this and what about thats, finesse and finagle then you can make a case for signing Jackson. There is NO WAY the Texans could sign another 6 or 7 players of similar value like both the Colts and Jaguars can. Regardless what your Hocus Pocus bag of tricks is telling you, It Ain't Gonna Happen!

I didn't say we could sign Jackson & 6 or 7 other contracts. I said we could absolutely easily signed Jackson. With an $11M signing bonus & a 4 year $22M contract, his cap is most likely $3M or less.

& unlike the Jags, we don't need to sign 6 or 7 similarly valued deals to field a winning team.

ObsiWan
03-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Putting all the if's and's and but's aside, the point and the question is: Who has the competitive advantage?

At QB and maybe RG and RT, the Colts; everywhere else there's no one on either of those starting squads I'd swap for the guys we have starting, position for position. But maybe I'm not looking closely enough.
Who's out there in F/A that you want so badly?

steelbtexan
03-08-2014, 04:08 PM
The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.

If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.

As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.

D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.

As I've stated before Grigson isn't playing around. Does he make mistakes? Sure he does. But he always leaves himself a way out. Slick Rick not so much.

Grigson is playing chess while Slick Rick is playing checkers and trying to stick his nose further up Cal McNair's butt.

steelbtexan
03-08-2014, 04:19 PM
I didn't say we could sign Jackson & 6 or 7 other contracts. I said we could absolutely easily signed Jackson. With an $11M signing bonus & a 4 year $22M contract, his cap is most likely $3M or less.

& unlike the Jags, we don't need to sign 6 or 7 similarly valued deals to field a winning team..

The Texans are the worst team in the NFL for a bunch of reasons. Not the least of which is lack of quality depth. So yes I would say signing the 6-7 similarly valued deals would come in quite handy.

steelbtexan
03-08-2014, 04:21 PM
At QB and maybe RG and RT, the Colts; everywhere else there's no one on either of those starting squads I'd swap for the guys we have starting, position for position. But maybe I'm not looking closely enough.
Who's out there in F/A that you want so badly?

Soliai and Swarchtz/Asamoah are guys I would be looking at if cap room was available.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-08-2014, 05:04 PM
for all you cap guys, if we cut everyone we will have $130 mil in cap space. Imagine who we could sign then : )


Your man... Pots and pans

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 05:36 PM
for all you cap guys, if we cut everyone we will have $130 mil in cap space. Imagine who we could sign then : )


Your man... Pots and pans

Not exactly, cutting Duane Brown, Cushing, Mercilus, Hopkins, & Swearinger will eat into that. About $34M, leaving us $98M to sign 53 players that can win more than 2 out of 16 games.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 05:51 PM
Now if want to start with all your if's and's and but's, what about this and what about thats, finesse and finagle then you can make a case for signing Jackson. There is NO WAY the Texans could sign another 6 or 7 players of similar value like both the Colts and Jaguars can. Regardless what your Hocus Pocus bag of tricks is telling you, It Ain't Gonna Happen!

And you keep leaving out of your Colts worship that they are going to spend a bunch of money staying even with last year on players like Vonte Davis, Donald Brown, Adam Vinatieri, Mike McGlynn, Samson Satele, Aubrayo Franklin, Pat Angerer, and Antoine Bethea. Those guys are STARTERS.

In contrast, 3 of the 4 starter FAs the Texans have are actually very conveniently on expiring contracts as they were probably gone for upgrading anyway - Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays.

Texian
03-08-2014, 06:01 PM
And you keep leaving out of your Colts worship

You're confusing worship with recognizing the reality of the situation. Part of that reality based thinking is recognizing the Texans don't have the cash to replace with Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays with equal or better talent. What you also fail to recognize is the COLTS DO have the cash to replace some of their lost starters with equal or better talent.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 06:05 PM
You're confusing worship with recognizing the reality of the situation. Part of that reality based thinking is recognizing the Texans don't have the cash to replace with Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays with equal or better talent.

How much would we need? Definitely not $80M worth.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 06:11 PM
You're confusing worship with recognizing the reality of the situation. Part of that reality based thinking is recognizing the Texans don't have the cash to replace with Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays with equal or better talent. What you also fail to recognize is the COLTS DO have the cash to replace some of their lost starters with equal or better talent.

LOL - cutting off that long list of Colts starters doesn't make them disappear.

And yes the Texans have plenty of cap to replace those three. Smith's upgrade is most likely already in the cap even.

Texian
03-08-2014, 06:11 PM
How much would we need? Definitely not $80M worth.

To get better and replace those 3 starters with better talent you would need a MINIMUM of $10-$12 million addition to the 2014 salary cap.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 06:15 PM
To get better and replace those 3 starters with better talent you would need a MINIMUM of $10-$12 million addition to the 2014 salary cap.

Total bunk.

Quess - already on the books.
Brandon Spikes - approx. $1 mil per year.
Paul Soliai - approx. $5 mil per year.

Upgrades across the board. And that is averages and the 1st year cap hit is generally under the avg/yr on the contract.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 06:18 PM
Upgrades across the board. And that is averages and the 1st year cap hit is generally under the avg/yr on the contract.

That's standard actual NFL contracts. He's talking about some mythical "Texans only" contracts.

Texian
03-08-2014, 06:43 PM
LOL - cutting off that long list of Colts starters doesn't make them disappear.

And yes the Texans have plenty of cap to replace those three. Smith's upgrade is most likely already in the cap even.

You can do what you want to with the Colt starters, the BOTTOM LINE is the Colts have ENOUGH money to replace with equal or better talent, the Texans DON'T. What else that is perfectly clear is that FINANCE is NOT one of your stronger subjects.

That's standard actual NFL contracts. He's talking about some mythical "Texans only" contracts.

You asked, what it would take to replace those 3 starters ( I assumed on the open market). Reality is Jones or Quess will replace Wade Smith, however that is not a GUARANTEE that is equal or better talent. It could be also be a Newton redo. To replace a LG w/ 1000 starts who grades out better than Wade Smith will cost $3-$4 million per year. Soliai and Spikes next contracts will be closer to $3-$5 million per year. $1 mil per year gets you Mays or Sharpton.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 06:52 PM
What else that is perfectly clear is that FINANCE is NOT one of your stronger subjects.

You asked, what it would take to replace those 3 starters ( I assumed on the open market). Reality is Jones or Quess will replace Wade Smith, however that is not a GUARANTEE that is equal or better talent. It could be also be a Newton redo. To replace a LG w/ 1000 starts who grades out better than Wade Smith will cost $3-$4 million per year. Soliai and Spikes next contracts will be closer to $3-$5 million per year. $1 mil per year gets you Mays or Sharpton.

What else is perfectly clear is that BASIC MATH is NOT one of your stronger subjects.

$3.5 each for Soliai and Spikes is $7 mil which is insignificantly off my estimate of $6 mil for their total which is also within your estimated range and is nowhere near your $10-12 mil, wait how did that go...MINIMUM of your original estimate. Sorry you don't get to just ignore the Texans having already planned for Smith's replacement.

Your propensity for exaggeration is laid bare.

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 06:59 PM
You asked, what it would take to replace those 3 starters ( I assumed on the open market).

I'm fine with the number you threw out there. My comment was in reference to the structure of the contract..... it's standard, like 'cak said, for the first year's cap to be less than the average $/yr

You call that "spending more than our credit limit."

Texian
03-08-2014, 07:02 PM
What else is perfectly clear is that BASIC MATH is NOT one of your stronger subjects.

$3.5 each for Soliai and Spikes is $7 mil which is insignificantly off my estimate of $6 mil for their total which is also within your estimated range and is nowhere near your $10-12 mil, wait how did that go...MINIMUM of your original estimate. Sorry you don't get to just ignore the Texans having already planned for Smith's replacement.

Your propensity for exaggeration is laid bare.

Total bunk.

Brandon Spikes - approx. $1 mil per year.



Once again, you're caught in that arguing vortex, arguing just to argue, it doesn't matter if you're WRONG, YOU'RE ARGUING. SNAP OUT OF IT! Spikes grades out higher than Sean Lee, Kuechely and Cushing. He's NOT, I repeat not going for $1 million per year. What did you say a starting LG with 1000 starts who grades out better than Wade Smith would cost? HINT: more than $1 million per year. NOW SNAP OUT OF IT!

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 07:22 PM
Once again, you're caught in that arguing vortex, arguing just to argue, it doesn't matter if you're WRONG, YOU'RE ARGUING. SNAP OUT OF IT! Spikes grades out higher than Sean Lee, Kuechely and Cushing. He's NOT, I repeat not going for $1 million per year. What did you say a starting LG with 1000 starts who grades out better than Wade Smith would cost? HINT: more than $1 million per year. NOW SNAP OUT OF IT!

Thanks Capt. Irrelevant. I already accepted your valuation despite the fact the players you mention didn't just get booted to the curb by the Patriots and carry Spikes' baggage. Your MINIMUM number was wrong by your own words..

ObsiWan
03-08-2014, 09:31 PM
Have you guys seen this ESPN Free Agency Tracker (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/freeagency/)?

They have assessed all the current F/As and graded them according to how much they think they're worth.
By ESPN.com staff

In advance of the opening of NFL free agency, ESPN Insider player evaluators Matt Williamson, Gary Horton and Field Yates teamed up to form the "pro-personnel department" for six-time NFL executive of the year Bill Polian and recreate the front-office free-agent evaluation process for ESPN.com. The foursome broke down every unrestricted free agent scheduled to reach the market in 2014 using the same process Polian used as a general manager.

Free agents were evaluated in four main areas:
• Speed: Does a player perform with above- or below-average quickness relative to his position?
•Production:How much of an impact does a player make over the course of the season relative to his position?
• Injury: Does a player have any health concerns that would prevent him from playing?
• Character: Does a player have off-field baggage or attitude issues? Or is he a positive influence on the field and in the clubhouse? Players were given a plus, minus or neutral mark in each category (though no pluses are given in the injury category).

They were then given a final grade corresponding to the value and term of the contract a team would be expected to commit.

A: $6 million-plus AAV (annual average value), three-plus years in term and/or guaranteed money
B: $2 million to $6 million AAV, two years or fewer in term and/or guaranteed money
C: $2 million or less AAV, two years or fewer in term and/or guaranteed money
D: minimum salary, one-year contract

Players with a plus or a minus grade slot between tiers.I checked a couple of the guys that have been mentioned as potential acquisitions for the Texans. For the most part the guys we already have graded higher.

D'Qwell Jackson - Very solid player but he's 31. What kind of contract would you offer a solid-but-aging LB?
Soliai is rated as a C level player. Earl Mitchell is A rated.
Both Andrew Gardner and Wade Smith are rated better than Asamoah

Now these grades are from Bill Polian and Scouts, Inc. Take 'em or leave 'em.

infantrycak
03-08-2014, 09:44 PM
D'Qwell Jackson - Very solid player but he's 31. What kind of contract would you offer a solid-but-aging LB?
Soliai is rated as a C level player. Earl Mitchell is A rated.
Both Andrew Gardner and Wade Smith are rated better than Asamoah

Now these grades are from Bill Polian and Scouts, Inc. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Jackson is already signed. He got $5.5 mil avg. so take that FWIW on their price valuations.

Soliai and Mitchell are totally different types of players. Mitchell may be a better player in general but not specific to RC's system.

Texian
03-09-2014, 08:42 AM
Thanks Capt. Irrelevant. I already accepted your valuation despite the fact the players you mention didn't just get booted to the curb by the Patriots and carry Spikes' baggage. Your MINIMUM number was wrong by your own words..

I have explained this to you many times before, there are times when your comments are very good but when you get caught up in that argue vortex you can be as bad as you can be good. This is another one of those times that you're not very good.

Lucky
03-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Both Andrew Gardner and Wade Smith are rated better than Asamoah
Then that tells me just how bogus these grades are from Scout, Inc. How is there enough tape on Gardner to even give him a grade. And Smith is shot. Once OK, but that time has passed. Asamoah would start on the Texans, easily. The Chiefs just have 2 better guards.

ObsiWan
03-09-2014, 02:32 PM
Then that tells me just how bogus these grades are from Scout, Inc. How is there enough tape on Gardner to even give him a grade. And Smith is shot. Once OK, but that time has passed. Asamoah would start on the Texans, easily. The Chiefs just have 2 better guards.
Hey I'm for whatever improves the O-line. And in the spirit of full disclosure this is the summary on Wade Smith
After a Pro Bowl year in 2012, his quality of play seemed to really regress in 2013 and he will not likely be re-signed. Smith seems to be slowing down a bit and his game now is more about position and body control and not as much power and physicality. He still has good feet, plays under control with balance and he plays hard. He is not an overpowering guy now and that's not going to improve.
and Jeff Schwartz...
Schwartz became the starting guard in place of Jon Asamoah in Kansas City and showed flashes of being a good player. He is an excellent run-blocker, works to finish and can handle the bull rush. Schwartz is solid in pass protection and has good hand use and decent short-area mirror abilities. He is Andy Reid's kind of guy -- big and tough -- and he will likely be targeted to re-sign.

Strangely enough there wasn't a synopsis on Asamoah.

Texian
03-09-2014, 02:36 PM
Then that tells me just how bogus these grades are from Scout, Inc. How is there enough tape on Gardner to even give him a grade. And Smith is shot. Once OK, but that time has passed. Asamoah would start on the Texans, easily. The Chiefs just have 2 better guards.

Grades according to profootballfocus.com:

Jon Asamoah RG, #20, +7.9
Wade Smith LG, #59, -10.7
Andrew Gardner - not enough snaps to be graded.

TexansThunder
03-09-2014, 03:46 PM
You're confusing worship with recognizing the reality of the situation. Part of that reality based thinking is recognizing the Texans don't have the cash to replace with Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays with equal or better talent. What you also fail to recognize is the COLTS DO have the cash to replace some of their lost starters with equal or better talent.

Overall, I agree with the vast majority of your posts. I was tracking with you on this discussion until your competitive advantage comment.

There are some similarities between the Colts' 2011 season and the Texans 2013 season. Both teams crashed with 2-14 seasons resulting in the #1 pick in the draft. Both teams had higher salaried players that missed time due to injuries. Both teams jettisoned their head coaches to the ranks of NFL coordinators.

In 2012, the Colts carried a historic amount, $38M, of "dead money" on the cap and essentially had to field a competitive team with approx. $82M. The Colts, despite carrying the weight of all that "dead money", fielded a team that finished 11-5 in 2012. Why? It is not necessarily how much you invest but how you invest it.

The Colts received valuable contributions from former members of the CFL and AFL. The Colts fielded a team with nine rookies and 33 players with three-or-fewer years of NFL service. The Colts resurgence wasn’t the result of a salary cap “gold rush”. Their lack of cap space certainly wasn’t an obstacle to gaining a competitive edge. Their success was a result of solid coaching, excellent scouting, and arguably the best draft class in franchise history. That 2011 Colts roster experienced a 70% turnover and the coaching staff molded a very young team into a well-prepared, cohesive, and competitive franchise.

The Colts parlayed some of their cap savings onto their offensive line during free agency prior to the 2013 season. It didn't work out as well as they hoped as the Colts OL (according to Pro Football Focus) ranked 24th in the league. PFF ranked the Texans OL 20th in the league.

The Colts are getting a heck of a lot more mileage from their draft picks and under-the-radar free agent signings than their “premium” free agent signings. The Colts would be wise to take a “grow into the cap” approach with their younger talent coupled with smart free agency augmentation, rather than dumping a bunch of money on over-priced veterans.

In my opinion, the Colts had the better offseason when they had little to no money to spend on premium free agents. I believe the team’s best acquisitions didn’t reflect in the actual salary cap – hiring a new coaching staff.

The Colts went from 2-14 in 2011 to 11-5 in 2012 with minimal cap space. The Texans can do the same.

Texian
03-09-2014, 05:28 PM
Overall, I agree with the vast majority of your posts. I was tracking with you on this discussion until your competitive advantage comment.

There are some similarities between the Colts' 2011 season and the Texans 2013 season. Both teams crashed with 2-14 seasons resulting in the #1 pick in the draft. Both teams had higher salaried players that missed time due to injuries. Both teams jettisoned their head coaches to the ranks of NFL coordinators.

In 2012, the Colts carried a historic amount, $38M, of "dead money" on the cap and essentially had to field a competitive team with approx. $82M. The Colts, despite carrying the weight of all that "dead money", fielded a team that finished 11-5 in 2012. Why? It is not necessarily how much you invest but how you invest it.

The Colts received valuable contributions from former members of the CFL and AFL. The Colts fielded a team with nine rookies and 33 players with three-or-fewer years of NFL service. The Colts resurgence wasn’t the result of a salary cap “gold rush”. Their lack of cap space certainly wasn’t an obstacle to gaining a competitive edge. Their success was a result of solid coaching, excellent scouting, and arguably the best draft class in franchise history. That 2011 Colts roster experienced a 70% turnover and the coaching staff molded a very young team into a well-prepared, cohesive, and competitive franchise.

The Colts parlayed some of their cap savings onto their offensive line during free agency prior to the 2013 season. It didn't work out as well as they hoped as the Colts OL (according to Pro Football Focus) ranked 24th in the league. PFF ranked the Texans OL 20th in the league.

The Colts are getting a heck of a lot more mileage from their draft picks and under-the-radar free agent signings than their “premium” free agent signings. The Colts would be wise to take a “grow into the cap” approach with their younger talent coupled with smart free agency augmentation, rather than dumping a bunch of money on over-priced veterans.

In my opinion, the Colts had the better offseason when they had little to no money to spend on premium free agents. I believe the team’s best acquisitions didn’t reflect in the actual salary cap – hiring a new coaching staff.

The Colts went from 2-14 in 2011 to 11-5 in 2012 with minimal cap space. The Texans can do the same.

Good Post! You make some very good points. However I still contend that a team that has $80 million to spend on players over a 2 year period has a competitive advantage over a team who only has $10 million. We do have a disagreement in the Colts best acquisition in the 2012 season. You say it was the addition of the new coaching staff. I firmly believe it was because the Colts had a much better QB and QB play in 2012 vs 2011. It was the poor performance by the QB that relegated the Colts to a 2-14 season in 2011. Almost a carbon copy of the Texans in 2013.

Texian
03-10-2014, 08:22 AM
"Houston has $122,239,346 committed against the cap with 51 contracts. Their adjusted cap, which includes rollover money, is $134,114,730. With $3,247,174 in dead money on the books, that leaves the Texans with $8,628,210 of cap space for 2014."

http://espn.go.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/4342/updating-houstons-cap-situation?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 08:31 AM
"Houston has $122,239,346 committed against the cap with 51 contracts. Their adjusted cap, which includes rollover money, is $134,114,730. With $3,247,174 in dead money on the books, that leaves the Texans with $8,628,210 of cap space for 2014."

http://espn.go.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/4342/updating-houstons-cap-situation?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Cut Schaub, designated as a June 1st cut, we increase our cap by $10M this year & next.

$18M for 2014, can we do what we need to do with $18M?

Texian
03-10-2014, 09:11 AM
Cut Schaub, designated as a June 1st cut, we increase our cap by $10M this year & next.

$18M for 2014, can we do what we need to do with $18M?

If you designate Schaub as a June 1 cut, you can move 50% of Schaub's $10 million in dead money to 2015 ($5 million). In addition cutting Schaub saves $4.125 mil in cap $$$. Therefore a June 1 cut would provide $9.125 million in additional cap $$$. Add that to the $8.628 available cap $$$ = $17.753 million $$$.

The Texans will have to allocate approx $5 million for IR replacements, LTBE's and Practice Squad. They will also need approx $2 million to complete the 53 man roster in September. That will leave approx $10 million to spend.

CAUTION: WORD OF WARNING - The more money you move to 2015 & beyond through June 1 cuts and restructured contracts makes it much more difficult to re-sign J.J. Watt.

That's why I suggest the Texans cut Schaub and trade Foster (if they can) and allocate all dead money to 2014 year. That would give the Texans almost $60 million in cap space in 2015 and more than enough $$$ to re-sign Watt.

FYI - You also need to take into account that 2014 draft pick 1.1 will count roughly $5 million against the Texans salary cap come September. So that really only leaves approx $5 million to spend.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 09:33 AM
If you designate Schaub as a June 1 cut, you can move 50% of Schaub's $10 million in dead money to 2015 ($5 million). In addition cutting Schaub saves $4.125 mil in cap $$$. Therefore a June 1 cut would provide $9.125 million in additional cap $$$. Add that to the $8.628 available cap $$$ = $17.753 million $$$.

The Texans will have to allocate approx $5 million for IR replacements, LTBE's and Practice Squad. They will also need approx $2 million to complete the 53 man roster in September. That will leave approx $10 million to spend.

CAUTION: WORD OF WARNING - The more money you move to 2015 & beyond through June 1 cuts and restructured contracts makes it much more difficult to re-sign J.J. Watt.

That's why I suggest the Texans cut Schaub and trade Foster (if they can) and allocate all dead money to 2014 year. That would give the Texans almost $60 million in cap space in 2015 and more than enough $$$ to re-sign Watt.

FYI - You also need to take into account that draft pick 1.1 will count roughly $5 million against the Texans salary cap come September.

So... you're saying yes? No? Close?

To get better and replace those 3 starters with better talent you would need a MINIMUM of $10-$12 million addition to the 2014 salary cap.

We cut Schaub, designated as a June 1st cut (+ $9.1M), cut McCain (+ $0.8M), cut Newton (+ $1.4M), cut Chad Spanning, Keith Browner, Toben Opurum ($1.2M)

+12.5M

Texian
03-10-2014, 09:50 AM
So... you're saying yes? No? Close?



We cut Schaub, designated as a June 1st cut (+ $9.1M), cut McCain (+ $0.8M), cut Newton (+ $1.4M), cut Chad Spanning, Keith Browner, Toben Opurum ($1.2M)

+12.5M

I'm saying with the 51 man roster Texans have approx $12 million to spend and this includes cutting Schaub as a June 1 cut. With your proposed cuts you would have approx $15.5 million to spend but you have reduced your current roster to 46 players. So come September you would have approx $15.5 million to sign 7 contracts to complete your 53 man roster. Keep in mind that 1.1 will cost you $5 million so that would leave approx $10.5 million to sign 6 additional contracts.

You also need to take into account that Texans filled out their 51 man roster with practice squad players and other marginal players to replace the 15 players who became FAs this year.

Assuming that 1.1, 2.1, 3.1 make the 53 man roster, last year those draft positions accounted for $7 million in cap $$$$. So when you add those 3 players and subtract those cap $$$ that leaves you with 4 contracts/players to add and approx $8.5 million to do it with.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 10:02 AM
I'm saying with the 51 man roster Texans have approx $12 million to spend and this includes cutting Schaub as a June 1 cut.

So we're good..... thanks.

WolverineFan
03-10-2014, 10:06 AM
Ideally the Texans would cut some of the bad contracts and take the cap hits this year and just get them off the books. Trade back and accumulate picks to fill out the roster instead of signing FA's and screwing with the cap. The rebuild is coming, this year is as good as any to get it started.

infantrycak
03-10-2014, 10:10 AM
Ideally the Texans would cut some of the bad contracts and take the cap hits this year and just get them off the books. Trade back and accumulate picks to fill out the roster instead of signing FA's and screwing with the cap. The rebuild is coming, this year is as good as any to get it started.

There is a giant disagreement on what are the "bad contracts." There is also a haste to declare some players done in that equation.

Texian
03-10-2014, 10:12 AM
So we're good..... thanks.

OOPS! I forgot you cut Schaub who is NOW part of the 51 man roster. So subtracting Schaub leaves 5 players/contracts to sign and approx $8.5 million to do it with. And don't forget this includes 2013 practice squad and handful of other marginal players as part of the 2014 53 man roster.

and no your not good, you cut 6 players so you only have 45 players under contract.

and you're still making it very difficult to re-sign JJ Watt.

WolverineFan
03-10-2014, 10:21 AM
There is a giant disagreement on what are the "bad contracts." There is also a haste to declare some players done in that equation.

Very true. I guess I should have clarified. I definitely think Schaub should be cut, but don't spread the cap hit around. Take it all ASAP just to get it over with. I see the pros and cons of cutting Daniels. If you think it's right to cut him, then take the hit this year. Same with Manning. I don't agree with cutting Joseph. I also think Foster has a bad contract, but there's not much we can do about that right now.

Texian
03-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Very true. I guess I should have clarified. I definitely think Schaub should be cut, but don't spread the cap hit around. Take it all ASAP just to get it over with. I see the pros and cons of cutting Daniels. If you think it's right to cut him, then take the hit this year. Same with Manning. I don't agree with cutting Joseph. I also think Foster has a bad contract, but there's not much we can do about that right now.

Daniels is a FA next year so his $ comes off the 2015 books. Daniels maybe a more valuable asset for a rookie a QB and tutoring a rookie TE if one is drafted. With Graham a FA this year cutting Daniels would leave the cupboard bare and with very little talent at TE in 2014.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 10:45 AM
OOPS! I forgot you cut Schaub who is NOW part of the 51 man roster. So subtracting Schaub leaves 5 players/contracts to sign and approx $8.5 million to do it with. And don't forget this includes 2013 practice squad and handful of other marginal players as part of the 2014 53 man roster.


How did we lose $4M by cutting Schaub when you already figured the money in?

I'm saying with the 51 man roster Texans have approx $12 million to spend and this includes cutting Schaub as a June 1 cut.

I understand adding another head to the count, but you said cutting Schaub was already factored into the money. You're also cheating me on moving $7.5M to 2015, not 50% or $5M. So that's the original $12M you quoted after cutting Schaub plus $2.5M you cheated me & we have $14.5M


and no your not good, you cut 6 players so you only have 45 players under contract.


We're still going to have depth issues, I'm not denying that. I wish we could spend $5M on every player we add like Indy can... but I agree we don't have the cap space to do that. We'll just have to find a way to get a lot out of cheap contracts the way they've done the past two years.

But we keep OD, we Keep Manning, we've got Brian Cushing coming back & we didn't have to cut Jjo..... so I'm still fielding a competent team with eight 1st & 2nd round picks & high dollar FAs.

We sign our first round pick for about $5M cap hit (your number) & the other 6 for about $3M, total of $8M leaving us $6M.

I don't expect us to be very active in FA.

But we can still & should cut Brice McCain & Derek Newton for another $2M. We can cut OD, we can get Andre, Jjo, Foster, & Myers to restructure if we have to..... not saying that we should, but if we have to.


and you're still making it very difficult to re-sign JJ Watt.

Eh... not on my agenda to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. I want to pay him well, but I want to win more. & overpaying does not help.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 11:01 AM
If you designate Schaub as a June 1 cut, you can move 50% of Schaub's $10 million in dead money to 2015 ($5 million). In addition cutting Schaub saves $4.125 mil in cap $$$. Therefore a June 1 cut would provide $9.125 million in additional cap $$$. Add that to the $8.628 available cap $$$ = $17.753 million $$$.

The Texans will have to allocate approx $5 million for IR replacements, LTBE's and Practice Squad. They will also need approx $2 million to complete the 53 man roster in September. That will leave approx $10 million to spend.

CAUTION: WORD OF WARNING - The more money you move to 2015 & beyond through June 1 cuts and restructured contracts makes it much more difficult to re-sign J.J. Watt.

That's why I suggest the Texans cut Schaub and trade Foster (if they can) and allocate all dead money to 2014 year. That would give the Texans almost $60 million in cap space in 2015 and more than enough $$$ to re-sign Watt.

FYI - You also need to take into account that 2014 draft pick 1.1 will count roughly $5 million against the Texans salary cap come September. So that really only leaves approx $5 million to spend.

If you use the June 1 designation, I don't think you can split the difference 50/50 like that. You take on this years pro-rated bonus for 2014 dead money. Remaining pro-rated bonus money for 2015 & 2016 go towards the 2015 cap as dead money.

Texian
03-10-2014, 11:23 AM
If you use the June 1 designation, I don't think you can split the difference 50/50 like that. You take on this years pro-rated bonus for 2014 dead money. Remaining pro-rated bonus money for 2015 & 2016 go towards the 2015 cap as dead money.

There you go, I stand corrected. So if you're correct, Schaub's 2014 dead money would be $3.5 million and his 2015 dead money would be $7 million? Correct?

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 11:26 AM
There you go, I stand corrected. So if you're correct, Schaub's 2014 dead money would be $3.5 million and his 2015 dead money would be $7 million? Correct?

That's the way I interpret the June 1 designation. Along with carrying his full cap hit until June 1. If Schaub is released (which may not happen now) I'm in favor of taking on all $10.5 million of dead money now in 2014 and move on.

Texian
03-10-2014, 11:29 AM
How did we lose $4M by cutting Schaub when you already figured the money in?

I understand adding another head to the count, but you said cutting Schaub was already factored into the money. You're also cheating me on moving $7.5M to 2015, not 50% or $5M. So that's the original $12M you quoted after cutting Schaub plus $2.5M you cheated me & we have $14.5M

We're still going to have depth issues, I'm not denying that. I wish we could spend $5M on every player we add like Indy can... but I agree we don't have the cap space to do that. We'll just have to find a way to get a lot out of cheap contracts the way they've done the past two years.

But we keep OD, we Keep Manning, we've got Brian Cushing coming back & we didn't have to cut Jjo..... so I'm still fielding a competent team with eight 1st & 2nd round picks & high dollar FAs.

We sign our first round pick for about $5M cap hit (your number) & the other 6 for about $3M, total of $8M leaving us $6M.

I don't expect us to be very active in FA.

But we can still & should cut Brice McCain & Derek Newton for another $2M. We can cut OD, we can get Andre, Jjo, Foster, & Myers to restructure if we have to..... not saying that we should, but if we have to.

Eh... not on my agenda to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. I want to pay him well, but I want to win more. & overpaying does not help.

It's hard for me to keep up with all your hypotheticals. I do believe you're living in some kind of Fantasy Land but you are definitely NOT LACKING in ENTHUSIASM and OPTIMISM. Your cup runneth over.

Texian
03-10-2014, 11:35 AM
That's the way I interpret the June 1 designation. Along with carrying his full cap hit until June 1. If Schaub is released (which may not happen now) I'm in favor of taking on all $10.5 million of dead money now in 2014 and move on.

I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-10-2014, 11:43 AM
I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.


I've always been an advocate of suffer now - play later , than play now suffer later. This pretty much separates the good franchises from the rest, and something Ol Slick Rick does not seem to understand.


Your man... Pots and pans

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 11:44 AM
I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.

But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.

WolverineFan
03-10-2014, 11:53 AM
Eh... not on my agenda to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. I want to pay him well, but I want to win more. & overpaying does not help.


I just don't understand this philosophy. If you want to win then you pay the guys who deserve it. It doesn't matter if you don't think he's worth that much. The market determines his worth.

Overpaying is one thing, but letting the best defensive player in the league walk away because you won't pay him market value is completely different.

Texian
03-10-2014, 11:56 AM
But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.

For starters cutting a handful of players and trading Ryans to pay Foster when he could've tendered.

Here is the primary example: For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums. ANd the only way they have been able to complete their 53 man roster is after they have restructured player contract(s) (borrowing money). This is the Texans bad habit. Short Term Gain in exchange FOR Long Term PAIN. Contrary to popular belief a team CANNOT live by the draft alone.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 12:06 PM
But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.

Kevin Walter counted $2 million dead money against the 2013 cap.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 12:08 PM
Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.

steelbtexan
03-10-2014, 01:24 PM
Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.

Seems like a good plan to me except I would let OD walk too if it gave me enough $$$$ to sign Soliai. That guy's a stud and would argurably help the team improve more than keeping OD. You can draft A.C. Leonard in the 5th and Najvar in the 7th and have a better TE group, plus get Soliai. Griffin looked like a reasonable replacement for OD last yr.

infantrycak
03-10-2014, 01:37 PM
Here is the primary example: For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums.

You would think you would try to find a primary example that bore some semblance to truth. Past three offseasons include signings of:

JJo
Manning
Ed Reed (yeah it sucked but that's irrelevant to your point)
Lechler
Derrick Ward
Mays - 154% of vet min.
Leinart
Vickers

That's on top of new contracts for key players in a tighter than normal time period.

Kevin Walter counted $2 million dead money against the 2013 cap.

Every team in the league has minor dead money like that except in rare years. The $3.5 mil the Texans carried is guat.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 02:15 PM
Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.

Using the calculator at OTC (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans) that puts us at $23M under the cap for 2014 & $43M under the cap for 2015 with those moves.

So I'm assuming you're ok with $23M for this year & $43M for next season. But you're going to have to find a replacement for OD & Daniel Manning. Not a big thing for you because you're not looking to win very much in 2014.


If instead, we make Schaub a June 1st cut, cut Derek Newton, & cut Brice McCain that would put us at $20M below the cap for 2014 & $42M under the cap for 2015. I know you can cut McCain & Newton in your scenario as well, but I just wanted to put those numbers side by side..... We can get the money we need for this offseason & making Schaub a June 1st cut doesn't hurt us as bad next year as some of us think.

I can still renegotiate with Joseph, but if you look at our numbers, that hurts as much as taking a June 1st cut on Schaub.

I can still cut OD, or DMan, or both & keep Joseph on track with a contract expiring after the 2015 season.


The cap for 2015 is already going to go up $10M compared to this season. Making Schaub a June 1st cut simply reduces it to $3M for us.... but it's money we never had anyway. The cap then goes up again in 2016, we'll save $19M for cutting Schaub now plus the imaginary $7M that we didn't realize in 2015 (because Schaub was a June 1st 2014 cut) plus another $10M for that league year. $19M+$7M+$10M= $36M untouched dollars that you can offer Jj Watt in a front loaded contract if you want to make him the highest paid defensive player in history.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 02:24 PM
Using the calculator at OTC (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans) that puts us at $23M under the cap for 2014 & $43M under the cap for 2015 with those moves.

So I'm assuming you're ok with $23M for this year & $43M for next season. But you're going to have to find a replacement for OD & Daniel Manning. Not a big thing for you because you're not looking to win very much in 2014.


If instead, we make Schaub a June 1st cut, cut Derek Newton, & cut Brice McCain that would put us at $20M below the cap for 2014 & $42M under the cap for 2015. I know you can cut McCain & Newton in your scenario as well, but I just wanted to put those numbers side by side..... We can get the money we need for this offseason & making Schaub a June 1st cut doesn't hurt us as bad next year as some of us think.

I can still renegotiate with Joseph, but if you look at our numbers, that hurts as much as taking a June 1st cut on Schaub.

I can still cut OD, or DMan, or both & keep Joseph on track with a contract expiring after the 2015 season.


The cap for 2015 is already going to go up $10M compared to this season. Making Schaub a June 1st cut simply reduces it to $3M for us.... but it's money we never had anyway. The cap then goes up again in 2016, we'll save $19M for cutting Schaub now plus the imaginary $7M that we didn't realize in 2015 (because Schaub was a June 1st 2014 cut) plus another $10M for that league year. $19M+$7M+$10M= $36M untouched dollars that you can offer Jj Watt in a front loaded contract if you want to make him the highest paid defensive player in history.


Nowhere did I say we release Daniels or Manning. I said retain them for the final year of their contract in 2014. My suggestion was only the Schaub release. Renegotiate (not restructure) with Joseph if possible. Everyone else stays.

Not sure what you are trying to say in your reply to me? In your scenario with McCain and Newton you just cut depth that were cheap to pay....still have to find their replacements at probably the same pay with some performance. Newton can stay, won't start, but he can provide depth that has playing time in the event of an injury. Only save about $2 mil by releasing McCain and Newton. Plus Newton is in the final year of his contract. Might as well use them as depth.

badboy
03-10-2014, 02:41 PM
I am confident we will have $ to sign good FAs but concern whether good FAs will be available. Many of those I would like will be signed elsewhere.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 02:48 PM
Nowhere did I say we release Daniels or Manning. I said retain them for the final year of their contract in 2014. My suggestion was only the Schaub release. Renegotiate (not restructure) with Joseph if possible. Everyone else stays.


In that case.. I was wrong.


Not sure what you are trying to say in your reply to me? In your scenario with McCain and Newton you just cut depth that were cheap to pay....still have to find their replacements at probably the same pay with some performance. Newton can stay, won't start, but he can provide depth that has playing time in the event of an injury. Only save about $2 mil by releasing McCain and Newton. Plus Newton is in the final year of his contract. Might as well use them as depth.

I don't mean any offense, just talking.

Newton is going to make $1.4M next year. McCain $1.3M..... my pockets obviously aren't as deep as yours. I want to replace Newton with our 1st overall draft pick. McCain... I've always liked Brandon Harris better & he's cheaper. We've got Josh Victorian & Loyce Means on the roster making $500K or less already... that's what McCain should have been making, that's what his replacement should be making.

I'm replying to you, because it sounds like you thought out your response, I just wanted to put numbers to it to see how effective your moves can be. & provide the link to the overthecap salarycap calculator (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans).

Cutting Schaub & Renegotiating Jjo, retaining OD & DMan brings us to $14M in 2014 & $43M in 2015... if you go with Texian's numbers, that $14M is really $9M after you take out the set aside money for IR replacements. the practice squad, & LTBEs..... again, according to Texian, we need about $13M to address our needs this offseason including signing our draft picks (~$8M).

We're practically in the same place by making Schaub a June 1st cut & not restructuring Jjo.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 02:55 PM
In that case.. I was wrong.



I don't mean any offense, just talking.

Newton is going to make $1.4M next year. McCain $1.3M..... my pockets obviously aren't as deep as yours. I want to replace Newton with our 1st overall draft pick. McCain... I've always liked Brandon Harris better & he's cheaper. We've got Josh Victorian & Loyce Means on the roster making $500K or less already... that's what McCain should have been making, that's what his replacement should be making.

I'm replying to you, because it sounds like you thought out your response, I just wanted to put numbers to it to see how effective your moves can be. & provide the link to the overthecap salarycap calculator (http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans).

Cutting Schaub & Renegotiating Jjo, retaining OD & DMan brings us to $14M in 2014 & $43M in 2015... if you go with Texian's numbers, that $14M is really $9M after you take out the set aside money for IR replacements. the practice squad, & LTBEs..... again, according to Texian, we need about $13M to address our needs this offseason including signing our draft picks (~$8M).

We're practically in the same place by making Schaub a June 1st cut & not restructuring Jjo.

No offense taken, salary cap is probably my favorite subject in football. I think you can get Newton's replacement in the 3rd or 4th round....no need to spend the first on a RT. No telling what B. Williams might do as well but I am not confident in him. But you need the depth...and lets be honest Newton has playing time and would be able to step in if needed.

As for McCain, you keep him for now into TC. If Means, or Lemon or Harris or one of the younger players beats out McCain...then by all means send him packing. McCain probably has a small roster bonus. Something I am willing to eat in dead money to give him another shot at TC. We have a lot of young players coming off IR probably ready to take down the vets.

With the way the QB free agents are playing out...I gotta think Smith is talking to Schaub to get him to take a reduction in pay with some incentives if he wins the starting job. I know the city wants him gone but at this point Schaub is probably the better option for a veteran QB. I would like to see his base salary lowered from $10.5m to say $5m and remove his active game bonus...replace that with statistical goals and playoff appearances.

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 03:07 PM
No offense taken, salary cap is probably my favorite subject in football. I think you can get Newton's replacement in the 3rd or 4th round....no need to spend the first on a RT. No telling what B. Williams might do as well but I am not confident in him. But you need the depth...and lets be honest Newton has playing time and would be able to step in if needed.


With the new CBA & pay structure for rookies it makes all the sense in the world to take the best OT with the #1 overall. As it stands now, our season is over if we lose Duane Brown. Not the case, if Robinson is the man we think he is.... that's this year, next year, & the year after. Unless of course you get a Peyton Manning or a Russell Wilson, then it's not such a big deal.

& if Newton has to come in the game... honestly, there was not one play where I saw him & say.... "Why can't you keep doing that." or "If you could do that one more time."

Understand, I was pretty high on Newton until he got hurt in Detroit (I think it was Detroit) in 2012.... since then, not so much.


As for McCain, you keep him for now into TC. If Means, or Lemon or Harris or one of the younger players beats out McCain...then by all means send him packing. McCain probably has a small roster bonus. Something I am willing to eat in dead money to give him another shot at TC. We have a lot of young players coming off IR probably ready to take down the vets.


I'm cool with that, but we don't have to eat his roster bonus unless he's on the roster when the season starts. There's some dead money in there whether we cut him today or Sept 8th.... so yeah, I don't have a problem carrying him through camp.


With the way the QB free agents are playing out...I gotta think Smith is talking to Schaub to get him to take a reduction in pay with some incentives if he wins the starting job. I know the city wants him gone but at this point Schaub is probably the better option for a veteran QB. I would like to see his base salary lowered from $10.5m to say $5m and remove his active game bonus...replace that with statistical goals and playoff appearances.

A big enough reduction is the best way to go imo, we can still free up $10M for 2014 & if we make him a June 1, 2015 cut it's only $3.5M of dead money for 2015 & 2016. IMO it maximizes the dollars available over the next three years.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 03:18 PM
Understood about Robinson and protecting the depth behind D. Brown. Robinson could be used like Eric Fisher...keep him at RT until D. Brown is gone and you move him over. 4 (or 5 year) window of two outstanding tackles. That is hard to pass up for the price you would be paying. Just not who I would want at #1, but that is another topic.

Point taken on the June 1 with Schaub. I'm just not in favor of carrying that full 14.5 through the free agency period up to June 1, despite the savings spread over two years. A month ago I was full on cut bait and go. Now I'm really thinking he stays, hopefully with that pay reduction.

On the McCain roster bonus, I was assuming it was an early roster bonus (middle of March). I don't know the specific terms of his contract, and the amount if probably small that does matter very little in the grand scheme of things.

msbbc833
03-10-2014, 05:44 PM
The fact of the matter is that this team is handcuffed this year and probably next year as well given the bad contracts we handed out like candy (Schaub and Foster). It's time to pay the piper. How Rick Smith still has a job is beyond me, how does he go and give a RB in a ZBS that sort of contract? How does he give an oft injured QB even more money? It's great that we have the first pick but there is still a year or two of pain left before this team can turn the corner and really retool the roster

thunderkyss
03-10-2014, 05:56 PM
Good discussion TroyChapman.....

On another note & not directed towards anyone in particular, but just to ramble a little bit.

Let's imagine I have a fairly decent player that I want to lock up for a few years, so I decide to offer him a contract. We agree to a 5 year arrangement with a total value of $25M/yr. I could pay him $5M/yr for the next 5 years. Simple, clean, easy.

With a salary cap of $120M, that allows me to sign 24 players at $5M/yr. 22 starters, 2 back up players... not so clean. The rules allow me to have 53 players... not so easy, & your pro-bowl players will want more than $5M/yr... not simple. Last year the salary cap was $126M

In 2010 the Texans decided to make Andre Johnson the highest paid WR in the league at that time. For the seven seasons starting in 2010 and ending with the 2016 season, Andre will earn $73.5M roughly $10.5M/yr.... That's what he gets for being the best.

If we were to have paid Andre what he was worth last season, that would have left us with $115.5M to pay the other 52 players that make up the team.

But we went to FA 3 years back to add one of the better CBs (at that time) to our ball club. Five years $48.7M roughly $9.7M...... leaving $105.8M for the remaining 51 players.

We've got a franchise LT who's signed to a 6 year $53.4M or $8.9M/yr.... leaving $96.9M to sign 50 players. Less than $2M/yr.

We can go down the whole roster, but hopefully you can see it is impossible to pay all your players what they "are worth" on an annual basis. Can't do it on a pay as you go basis, not when you're carrying 3 probowlers/All Pro players on defense, 7 on offense, only one of those 10 is playing on his rookie contract. As opposed to the Colts who had 3, maybe 4 players playing at a pro bowl level, all 4 on rookie contracts.

That's why we are in cap heck. We're paying premium dollars for our "star" players, they are not. Our stars did not perform like stars with the exception of Andre Johnson & Jj Watt, for whatever reason. Their scrubs played like All-Pros.

We've got 8 defensive starters that are either 1st round, 2nd round, or high dollar free agents. Jj Watt, Brian Cushing, Johnathan Joseph, Danieal Manning, Dj Swearinger, Kareem Jackson, Whitney Mercilus, & Brooks Reed. Hopefully RAC can add 3 scrubs to that group & find us a starting line-up.

Offensively, we've got 7 probowlers. Hopefully we can add a 1st & 2nd round pick to the group & get back to a top 10 offense..... even if it's only yards.


SalaryCap heck.

leebigeztx
03-10-2014, 06:01 PM
I've had time to really digest this stuff. If I read right,the texans have 8.3m of cap space for their top 51 players which isn't bad. I've also been trying to se where they can create space. 1st off, I'm not cutting a guy on a rookie deal before the draft. Any money gained from those moves are small by nfl standards. So now that brings me to some of the obvious candidates and their importance to the team and nfl.

Schaub,the lightning rod. As I posted many times, I never thought he was as good as the stats. I think kubiak manipulated him system wise,but I'm not made at schaub. I do think he's solid and can help teams including the texans. I still think the texans should draft Bridgewater at 1,but I think schaub could still be a starter on this team. If they cut schaub,they will gain about $4m short term. With the qb market and the dearth of solid qbs, I think they can get schaubs number to 7m per yr with incentives. That would give the texans 7m of room and if he plays well, his contract is tradeable like alex smith and carson palmer next yr.

JJo. Frankly, it cost too much to cut him. I'm not sure they can restructure him,but they need to get his cap # down to about 5m. I do think JJo and even Kareem will fare better with rac than they did with wade. RAC plays a lot of cover 3,cover 4 as oppsed to man. RAC also likes to invert the cb and safeties,so the cb have to be good tacklers.

Manning, see Joseph.

OD. This is the guy I keep axing. His price vs the cap and his production is why I keep doing it. He's solid,but they have solid and younger guys at that spot. Not to mention, they would have any dead money if they axe him. He's likeable and somewhat productive,but for 6m,not so much.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 07:19 PM
I've had time to really digest this stuff. If I read right,the texans have 8.3m of cap space for their top 51 players which isn't bad. I've also been trying to se where they can create space. 1st off, I'm not cutting a guy on a rookie deal before the draft. Any money gained from those moves are small by nfl standards. So now that brings me to some of the obvious candidates and their importance to the team and nfl.

Schaub,the lightning rod. As I posted many times, I never thought he was as good as the stats. I think kubiak manipulated him system wise,but I'm not made at schaub. I do think he's solid and can help teams including the texans. I still think the texans should draft Bridgewater at 1,but I think schaub could still be a starter on this team. If they cut schaub,they will gain about $4m short term. With the qb market and the dearth of solid qbs, I think they can get schaubs number to 7m per yr with incentives. That would give the texans 7m of room and if he plays well, his contract is tradeable like alex smith and carson palmer next yr.

JJo. Frankly, it cost too much to cut him. I'm not sure they can restructure him,but they need to get his cap # down to about 5m. I do think JJo and even Kareem will fare better with rac than they did with wade. RAC plays a lot of cover 3,cover 4 as oppsed to man. RAC also likes to invert the cb and safeties,so the cb have to be good tacklers.

Manning, see Joseph.

OD. This is the guy I keep axing. His price vs the cap and his production is why I keep doing it. He's solid,but they have solid and younger guys at that spot. Not to mention, they would have any dead money if they axe him. He's likeable and somewhat productive,but for 6m,not so much.

I think your $7m number on Schaub is off a little. If you got his salary down to $7 million that would save $3 million since his base salary is $10 million this year. But I like your thinking and I agree. A reduction in base salary would be optimal and best for both sides as opposed to release.

Troy Chapman
03-10-2014, 07:24 PM
Good discussion TroyChapman.....



Yep.

Another point I would like to bring up that contributed to our salary cap number, namely the low amount of carryover from 2013 (and 2012). The Texans have experienced a ton of injuries. Don't forget that every time we had to place someone on IR, they had to pay another player to fill the 53 man roster. And if that player came off the PS, that was additional dead money. I know these replacement players were minimum salaries but after 7-8 players it does eat away at the cap. Next think you know all those extra players ate up a couple million in the cap leaving little to rollover to 2014.

aussie_texan
03-10-2014, 07:29 PM
im not a fan of cutting manning i think he adds to much veteran leadership and quality in our secondary, however there are a number of decent to good safeties in FA so we might be able to get someone of equal quality for less

PHILLYTEXANFAN
03-11-2014, 11:07 AM
How do we look now after these 2 cuts


Your man... Pots and pans

thunderkyss
03-11-2014, 11:16 AM
How do we look now after these 2 cuts


Your man... Pots and pans

http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans

Cutting Owen, we should be +$6.2M

McCain should be +$850K

Troy Chapman
03-11-2014, 11:17 AM
http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans

Cutting Owen, we should be +$6.2M

McCain should be +$800K

~$13.77m in space by my numbers.

$4.5m for OD, $850K for McCain

ChampionTexan
03-11-2014, 11:19 AM
http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans

Cutting Owen, we should be +$6.2M

McCain should be +$850K

Owen creates a net of $4.5M in new cap space.

Texian
03-11-2014, 11:35 AM
And you keep leaving out of your Colts worship that they are going to spend a bunch of money staying even with last year on players like Vonte Davis, Donald Brown, Adam Vinatieri, Mike McGlynn, Samson Satele, Aubrayo Franklin, Pat Angerer, and Antoine Bethea. Those guys are STARTERS.

In contrast, 3 of the 4 starter FAs the Texans have are actually very conveniently on expiring contracts as they were probably gone for upgrading anyway - Wade Smith, Earl Mitchell and Joe Mays.

It's perfectly understandable why kool aid drinkers would think that the discussion of the Colts $46 million salary cap as Colts Worship. The non drinkers see it as a dose of reality without a bunch of excuses.

The point that kool aid drinkers don't seem to grasp is the Colts do have more than enough money to re-sign all their players or replace them with free agents if they so choose and the Texans DO NOT.

Kool aid drinkers are also under the illusion that even though the Texans don't have the money to re-sign any of their FA players the Texans will somehow, someway be able to upgrade all the positions lost to free agency with better talent even though all they can afford is vet minimum or a little more.

You would think you would try to find a primary example that bore some semblance to truth. Past three offseasons include signings of:

JJo
Manning
Ed Reed (yeah it sucked but that's irrelevant to your point)
Lechler
Derrick Ward
Mays - 154% of vet min.
Leinart
Vickers

That's on top of new contracts for key players in a tighter than normal time period.

"For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums."

To start, the Texans did not have enough salary cap space to sign Joseph and Manning at the beginning of the 2011 season. This was only made possible AFTER the Texans restructured the contracts of Andre Johnson, DeMeco Ryans and Antonio Smith to become compliant with the salary cap at the beginning of the season. In fact these players could not practice and did sit out a morning practice until their restructured contracts were completed.

Joe Mays did sign for the vet minimum salary of $715K. In addition he received bonuses of $360K, that equated to 50% + of his salary.

The other names you have listed don't really fit what most people would consider "Notable Free Agents". These names are more fitting of lunch pail type players with salaries much closer to vet minimums than what most folks would consider NOTABLE FREE AGENTS or a player who would command a salary of $4 million per year.

Sadly, the Texans have had to restructure contracts the last 3 years to accommodate many of these lunch pail players. The fact remains, the Texans in the last 3 years have NOT had salary cap space available to begin the league year to sign any "notable free agents".

thunderkyss
03-11-2014, 11:49 AM
Updated: March 22, 2012, 8:45 PM ET (http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7721922/tom-brady-restructures-deal-creates-cap-room-new-england-patriots-source-says)FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady restructured the remaining three years of his contract, helping the team create $7.2 million in salary cap space this year, a source confirmed.

As part of the restructure, Brady had his 2012 base salary reduced from $5.75 million to $950,000. The team then took the remaining $4.8 million, combined it with a $6 million roster bonus due to him, and gave him a $10.8 million signing bonus.

Brady doesn't have his salary reduced, he just receives the money in a different form.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft, speaking at a community event on Thursday at Gillette Stadium, calling the restructuring a "win-win all-around" for Brady and the team.

"I think we're blessed to have the number one quarterback in the NFL," Kraft said of Brady. "But let's also remember, that when he restructures his deal, he's getting a big bundle of cash up-front. But it is helping us create cap room."

If the Patriots do the same thing, it can't be bad for business. This is business as usual. We had seven pro bowlers on offense, all of them at least on their second contract.

We had 2 pro bowlers on defense, both big money FAs (Antonio & Jjo). We also had Three former 1st round picks... you have to pay those guys, no way around it.

You either have players.... or you have cap room. We thought we were Super Bowl contenders when the season started. The Colts didn't.

Before 2012, the New England Patriots was the model team Texian said we should pattern ourselves after, the Economics major, Bill Belichick. Now.... it's the Colts.

infantrycak
03-11-2014, 12:09 PM
It's perfectly understandable why kool aid drinkers would think that the discussion of the Colts $46 million salary cap as Colts Worship. The non drinkers see it as a dose of reality without a bunch of excuses.

The point that kool aid drinkers don't seem to grasp is the Colts do have more than enough money to re-sign all their players or replace them with free agents if they so choose and the Texans DO NOT.

Kool aid drinkers are also under the allusion that even though the Texans don't have the money to re-sign any of their FA players the Texans will somehow, someway be able to upgrade all the positions lost to free agency with better talent even though all they can afford is vet minimum or a little more.



"For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums."

To start, the Texans did not have enough salary cap space to sign Joseph and Manning at the beginning of the 2011 season. This was only made possible AFTER the Texans restructured the contracts of Andre Johnson, DeMeco Ryans and Antonio Smith to become compliant with the salary cap at the beginning of the season. In fact these players could not practice and did sit out a morning practice until their restructured contracts were completed.

Joe Mays did sign for the vet minimum salary of $715K. In addition he received bonuses of $360K, that equated to 50% + of his salary.

The other names you have listed don't really fit what most people would consider "Notable Free Agents". These names are more fitting of lunch pail type players with salaries much closer to vet minimums than what most folks would consider NOTABLE FREE AGENTS or a player who would command a salary of $4 million per year.

Sadly, the Texans have had to restructure contracts the last 3 years to accommodate many of these lunch pail players. The fact remains, the Texans in the last 3 years have NOT had salary cap space available to begin the league year to sign any "notable free agents".

The truly sad thing is you have some knowledge and even a point but you constantly obscure them in exaggerated illusions and then when called upon it resort to meaningless diversion ad nauseum.

Texian
03-11-2014, 12:59 PM
The truly sad thing is you have some knowledge and even a point but you constantly obscure them in exaggerated illusions and then when called upon it resort to meaningless diversion ad nauseum.

Another typical, I Know You're but What am I, response. Not surprised, it was expected.

steelbtexan
03-11-2014, 01:12 PM
Updated: March 22, 2012, 8:45 PM ET (http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7721922/tom-brady-restructures-deal-creates-cap-room-new-england-patriots-source-says)

If the Patriots do the same thing, it can't be bad for business. This is business as usual. We had seven pro bowlers on offense, all of them at least on their second contract.

We had 2 pro bowlers on defense, both big money FAs (Antonio & Jjo). We also had Three former 1st round picks... you have to pay those guys, no way around it.

You either have players.... or you have cap room. We thought we were Super Bowl contenders when the season started. The Colts didn't.

Before 2012, the New England Patriots was the model team Texian said we should pattern ourselves after, the Economics major, Bill Belichick. Now.... it's the Colts.

Not saying this is the wrong way to go.

But many including myself predicted the Texans fall from grace last yr. Just not as bad a fall from grace that happened. SOS + injuries to high level players+bad drafting that lead to lack of depth =2-14. Really who expected Foster to stay healthy all yr? C-N-D told us what was going to happen to Schaub. Gary mishandled the OL injuries, Wade Smith/Newton were shells of themselves and Brown was rushed back from his turf toe injury. Compare that to how the Seahawks handled their OL injury problems and you will see why the Texans offense stunk last yr. Lack of depth/bad drafting was the main cause.

To be a champion you have to follow a champions model. Hopefully BOB has learned this with the Pats.

thunderkyss
03-11-2014, 04:58 PM
Not saying this is the wrong way to go.

But many including myself predicted the Texans fall from grace last yr. Just not as bad a fall from grace that happened. SOS + injuries to high level players+bad drafting that lead to lack of depth =2-14. Really who expected Foster to stay healthy all yr? C-N-D told us what was going to happen to Schaub. Gary mishandled the OL injuries, Wade Smith/Newton were shells of themselves and Brown was rushed back from his turf toe injury. Compare that to how the Seahawks handled their OL injury problems and you will see why the Texans offense stunk last yr. Lack of depth/bad drafting was the main cause.

To be a champion you have to follow a champions model. Hopefully BOB has learned this with the Pats.

I've got no problem with anyone who says we had a bunch of bad contracts because we gave the wrong people a lot of money & should have known better.

That's a good argument with mountains of data to back it up.

But to say we've got a bunch of bad contracts because they're back-loaded, when that's standard operating practice for the NFL.

To say we should be like Baltimore with Ozzie Newsome, until they have to dump half their team months after winning the Super Bowl for salary cap issues.

Switch to the Patriots with the economics major Bill Belichick, until he has to restructure the deal he just gave his franchise QB, lose Wes Wellker, & pays a thug millions of dollars before watching him swept away in handcuffs.

Then switch to the Colts who have $80M in cap space two seasons after dumping Harrison, Manning, Freeney, Saturday, Clark, Wayne... then he cites Gosder Cherilus's contract as a model for future NFL contracts when it's the exact same kind of contract he says gets us in trouble.

That's an argument I can't follow & you know me... I can come up with some doozies.

TexansSeminole
03-11-2014, 05:59 PM
So, after today's cuts we will have about $17.5M in cap space, assuming we cut Schaub before June 1st. If we don't cut him at all we have about $13.9M in space. Is that correct?

Playoffs
03-11-2014, 07:44 PM
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Texans are $13.752 million under the cap

thunderkyss
03-11-2014, 08:28 PM
So, after today's cuts we will have about $17.5M in cap space, assuming we cut Schaub before June 1st. If we don't cut him at all we have about $13.9M in space. Is that correct?

Cutting Schaub, even before June 1st, would add $4.6M

$22.1M

infantrycak
03-11-2014, 09:03 PM
Cutting Schaub, even before June 1st, would add $4.6M

$22.1M

You seem to use a different number each time. A non June 1st cut or a trade adds $3.625 to the available 2014 cap space.

Troy Chapman
03-11-2014, 09:48 PM
You seem to use a different number each time. A non June 1st cut or a trade adds $3.625 to the available 2014 cap space.

This is correct.

Unless the McCown visit goes well I see a base salary reduction coming for Schaub with him staying on the roster.

TexansFight
03-11-2014, 10:40 PM
I'm sick and tired of seeing Denver add to their talent base. They just added Aqib Talib, the best cover corner in the game and are supposedly at the top of the list for DeMarcus Ware.

I want the Texans to do whatever they have to get out of this cap situation where they are completely hamstrung. It just builds in excuses for Rick Smith's continual failures. Denver is paying for Peyton Manning, Wes Welker, Von Miller, and a bunch of other stars and they are ADDING talent. We can't get a competent RT to man the position.

dalemurphy
03-11-2014, 10:41 PM
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL

This is not a bad place to be... Given that the Texans have Schaub, Myers, Manning, Joseph, AJ all with big cap numbers and shrinking cap hits, the Texans can structure pretty much any deal they want. I wouldn't worry much about cap room. Given a 2-14 season and a new staff, I wouldn't expect a bankload of dollars spent on a single player. It is a roster overhaul. Unlike the last one that began in 2006, this one will not take three years to unwind. The Texans will enter 2014-15 in great cap shape without having to mortgage this season away.

TheRealJoker
03-11-2014, 10:42 PM
The Broncos have the cap space to sign Talib, TJ Ward and are now making a serious push for Demarcus Ware...

How are they in such a better position cap wise than us?! 😭

dalemurphy
03-11-2014, 10:45 PM
The Broncos have the cap space to sign Talib, TJ Ward and are now making a serious push for Demarcus Ware...

How are they in such a better position cap wise than us?! 😭

Not. They are in a "win now" mode. If we had Peyton Manning at age 38, we would be doing the same thing. It makes no sense for a new staff, with a leash, to aggressively go after free agents when they have not had a single live practice with the current players. Look for aggressiveness in FA next year. This year, we will be grabbing familiar players and locker room guys in positions of weakness.... It's how all the good ones do it: Parcells, Belicheck, Schottenheimer, Jimmy Johnson, etc...

TexansFight
03-11-2014, 10:52 PM
This is not a bad place to be... Given that the Texans have Schaub, Myers, Manning, Joseph, AJ all with big cap numbers and shrinking cap hits, the Texans can structure pretty much any deal they want. I wouldn't worry much about cap room. Given a 2-14 season and a new staff, I wouldn't expect a bankload of dollars spent on a single player. It is a roster overhaul. Unlike the last one that began in 2006, this one will not take three years to unwind. The Texans will enter 2014-15 in great cap shape without having to mortgage this season away.


I want us to have flexibility to add pieces if we become a playoff team again in the near future. We are so hamstrung by the cap that our depth was terrible. This is a fundamental flaw that can't be dismissed. I would love to have gone in to the 2012 season with DeMeco and Winston. We have continually gotten weaker since 2011 with is the opposite of what Denver has done.

Rick Smith has failed badly managing the cap and hasn't drafted well in the 2nd-4th rounds which is the lifeblood of where good teams replenish talent. Rick Smith seems to me to not be connected on what's going in the league. You see Daryl Morey find value in late round draft picks and add a nice rotational player in Jordan Hamilton for nothing. Rick Smith has never come close to providing analogous talent for the Texans.

TexansFight
03-11-2014, 10:56 PM
Not. They are in a "win now" mode. If we had Peyton Manning at age 38, we would be doing the same thing. It makes no sense for a new staff, with a leash, to aggressively go after free agents when they have not had a single live practice with the current players. Look for aggressiveness in FA next year. This year, we will be grabbing familiar players and locker room guys in positions of weakness.... It's how all the good ones do it: Parcells, Belicheck, Schottenheimer, Jimmy Johnson, etc...


Weren't we in a "win now" mode in 2012 and 2013? We got weaker and lost key contributors from our first playoff team. We didn't have a franchise QB to pay like they did. Denver is paying Manning close to $20 million and they still can find room!! We should have had more cap room since Schaub was relatively cheap in comparison.

The truth is We couldn't find a competent RT and our LB corps went to crap the past 2 years because we have an incompetent fool running our team.

thunderkyss
03-11-2014, 11:03 PM
I'm sick and tired of seeing Denver add to their talent base. They just added Aqib Talib, the best cover corner in the game and are supposedly at the top of the list for DeMarcus Ware.

I want the Texans to do whatever they have to get out of this cap situation where they are completely hamstrung. It just builds in excuses for Rick Smith's continual failures. Denver is paying for Peyton Manning, Wes Welker, Von Miller, and a bunch of other stars and they are ADDING talent. We can't get a competent RT to man the position.

They've got $27M, we've got $13M..... making Schaub a June 1st cut will bring us to $23M, cutting DMann would bring us to $27M.... but we'll have to wait 'til June 1st before we can dip into the Schaub money.

We've got money now... $13M we can spend now. The Texans like to wait out the first couple of weeks regardless.

dalemurphy
03-11-2014, 11:07 PM
They've got $27M, we've got $13M..... making Schaub a June 1st cut will bring us to $23M, cutting DMann would bring us to $27M.... but we'll have to wait 'til June 1st before we can dip into the Schaub money.

We've got money now... $13M we can spend now. The Texans like to wait out the first couple of weeks regardless.

Different scenario. This coaching staff doesn't have the belief nor the need that the staff did in 2010 when it grabbed Joseph and Manning... They are making a change for the future at QB. By definition, that means the team isn't trying to win a championship this year. While a dramatic turn around is likely expected, overpaying to plug a final hole with an elite talent in the FA market doesn't make sense for the current (and new) organization. They will grab some quality players at positions of need and likely end up with a couple quality compensatory picks for next year.

TexansFight
03-11-2014, 11:15 PM
They've got $27M, we've got $13M..... making Schaub a June 1st cut will bring us to $23M, cutting DMann would bring us to $27M.... but we'll have to wait 'til June 1st before we can dip into the Schaub money.



We've got money now... $13M we can spend now. The Texans like to wait out the first couple of weeks regardless.


You do realize we would have to cut our starting safety and what was our starting QB to reach $23 million. Denver has freaking Peyton Manning and a bunch of stars and they had $27 million in cap space. You can't think that we are in the same boat as they are. I truly wonder if we can fill out the roster with competent players. You can't be this blind. Please.

steelbtexan
03-11-2014, 11:15 PM
The Broncos have the cap space to sign Talib, TJ Ward and are now making a serious push for Demarcus Ware...

How are they in such a better position cap wise than us?! ��

They have Bowlen/Elway running their team.

The Texans have BoB/Cal McNair/Rick Smith running their team.

infantrycak
03-11-2014, 11:44 PM
You do realize we would have to cut our starting safety and what was our starting QB to reach $23 million. Denver has freaking Peyton Manning and a bunch of stars and they had $27 million in cap space. You can't think that we are in the same boat as they are. I truly wonder if we can fill out the roster with competent players. You can't be this blind. Please.

It's important to look at their free agent situation:

Knowshon Moreno, RB - starter
Andre Caldwell, WR
Eric Decker, WR - starter
Winston Justice, OL
Zane Beadles, OL - starter
Dan Koppen, OL
Robert Ayers, DE - starter
Jeremy Mincey, DE
Shaun Phillips, LB - starter
Stewart Bradley, LB
Paris Lenon, LB
Wesley Woodyard, LB - starter
Champ Bailey, CB
Quentin Jammer, CB
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, CB - starter
Steve Vallos, C
Mike Adams, S
Michael Huff, S

Plus starting CB Chris Harris most likely won't play next year having gone down with an ACL in the playoffs. They just signed Talib to a stupid contract to replace him.

Just saying you can't only looked at the cap space as often a lot of that will be sucked up in staying even.

We are losing a NT who doesn't seem to fit the new D, a LG who was done anyway and a DE who I wish they would re-sign, but we'll see, and a FB who can be re-signed or replaced easily.